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Frustrated! Stan's Comment

June 9 2006 at 4:53 PM
Mark F.  (no login)
from IP address

I have grown up in the church and attended churches of Christ across this nation. My family has a heritage with the church to include preachers and elders. I have attended a church of Christ University and studied Bible from some of the great conservative christians.

Beyond heritage and upbringing, there is one key reason that I worship with Christians that meet under the name "church of Christ." It is because I have not found another group that tries so hard to search the Word and do what the bible says.

That being said, now that I am in my mid 30's, I am struggling with what practices that we hold to are tradition and heritage and which are truely based on scriptural example and command. I guess you could say I am one of those standing in the middle, nervously looking at the mega churches and wondering where they are going and, at the same time, fearfully looking at the acrid words that come from those who insist they have it all figured out!

!!! What frustrats me the most is how all this in-fighting keeps us from doing what God wants us to do, reaching the lost and helping each other grow closer to God. !!!

It is good to discuss the pros and cons of what kind of illustration we use in our bible classes. It is good to discuss the negatives and postitives of a certain author's thoughts. It is good to discuss what we are focusing on in our corporate worship, whether we are trying to please God or ourselves. There is reason to have this DISCUSSION/DIALOGUE. But the purpose of any real discussion is to provide different points of view so that we can GROW in our understanding (both parties grow). None of us have all of the answers! None of us will ever have all the answers until we stand in God's presence.

Instead, we tend to question peoples motives, thier underlying intent. We make broad generalizations. We judge!

The bible speaks clearly on judgement. It is like me trying to tell my boss that a co-working isn't pulling his/her load. I can whine all I want, but it is the boss that writes the performance report, sets the pay raise, and chooses wheter to keep an employee or not, all based on the bosses view of the worker's performance. Or, as scripture says "Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand." (Romans 14:5 KJV)

Yes, we need to continue and strive to uphold God's word, to try and discern what is right or wrong. But be careful when you judge those that don't see eye-to-eye with us on a certain issue, because the word says, "To his own master he stands or falls; and HE WILL STAND..." (Romans 14:5 NAS)

Let us put aside these disputes that divide us, open up HONEST OPEN discussion where we REALLY OPENLY look at issues, uplift one another, and, MOST IMPORTANTLY, focus on reaching the lost!!!

In Christ,

Mark F.
(not to be confused with "Mark" or "The Other Mark")

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Nov 21, 2016 2:08 PM

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Donnie Cruz
(no login)

Be proud of our New Testament church heritage

June 10 2006, 1:47 AM 


With or without the Restoration Movement, the church that Christ founded and established in Jerusalem has always existed—and the Lord’s kingdom shall stand forever. That’s a promise from God—a prophecy in Joel 2 and Matt. 16:18-19 and its fulfillment in Acts 1-2ff. The great men of the Restoration Movement did NOT found another religion. Let’s be aware that restoration does not mean a new creation; neither does it mean some type of transformation or makeover or improvement or alteration. Rather, it is a RETURN TO or a reinstatement of something original.

Let us be proud of our New Testament church heritage—a church owned by Christ and governed by the law of Christ, not by the Old Covenant or the law of Moses. While there are certainly great principles that we can learn from the Old Testament, New Testament Christianity is guided by the doctrine of Christ and His apostles. And there’s such a thing called traditions. Let me explain.

I’ve done some calculating, Mark, in regard to your attending the university—early 90’s? I can’t help but think of all the various “movements” that have been prevalent since the 70’s and onward—the “Jesus” Movement, the Charismatic Movement, the Contemporary Christian Music Movement, the Community Church Movement, the Church Growth Movement, etc.—that have affected not only the religious world in general, but even our brotherhood. Where have all the “pioneers” of recent generations gone—Baxter, G.K. Wallace, Thomas B. Warren, Goodpasture, et al? Does the church now have men like them then? These men’s trust or confidence in the traditions was not wavering or questionable.

Now, we’re talking about “tradition.” Dealing with what tradition is all about is crucial in determining whether or not we’re in the faith. OK. Do we realize that the advocates of the Church Transformation Movement (a.k.a. “change agents”) have become very adept at using the word “tradition” as one of their strongest defense mechanisms? Unless we are cognizant of their premise, which is their desire to ALTER the church of Jesus Christ, then, we are doomed to failure in our fight for the church that belongs to Christ and that bears His name, in our determination to remain loyal to His church, in our willingness to adhere to the teachings found in the New Testament (not in Rick Warren’s manual for church growth). Do we hear about the teachings and doctrine of Christ (Acts 13:12; Titus 2:10; Heb. 6:1; II John 1:9)? Or, of the apostles (Titus 1:1; II Tim. 1:1,11; Eph. 4:11)?

Wait, please! Ah … speaking of traditions:

    ” Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.” (II Thess. 2:15)

    “Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.” (II Thess. 3:6)

There’s nothing to fear when one knows the truth. I agree with you when you said, “… I have not found another group that tries so hard to search the Word and do what the Bible says.” I certainly can attest to that remarkable statement based on my experiences in the past searching for the truth from one religious body to another … to another. If nothing else, I drew the conclusion, which still stands, that the teachings I found in the New Testament come closest to what the NT church that I’ve come to know also teaches.

In the few years that I have been involved in what this website is trying to accomplish amid the battles that the change agents are waging against the church of Christ Jesus, I’ve learned to be patient and to understand those on that side without compromising the truth. Of course, I often feel that the other side is not listening to the fact that this website has no interest in changing the church that Christ established in the first century.

Yes, we all need to exercise a little more courtesy in discussing matters—especially controversial and unnecessary changes [right or wrong]—that cause division in any congregation. I think that any discussion will be more beneficial if any serious poster would give better identification of himself or herself. There’s much animosity involved when several posters identify themselves as “Anonymous.” You know, I would like to be able to address someone as Matthew, Mark, Luke or John and “he” or “his” or “him” at other times in my response. I would not want in my post to address or greet someone, “Hey, Anonymous” several times and not be able to identify the same person as “he” or “she” or whatever.

No, we haven’t figured it all out. But we should have the confidence and assurance in what we know the Holy Scripture teaches. When there’s no scriptural passage to disprove something that we know God’s Word teaches, then, that’s a good sign.

Thanks for letting us know your feelings. At the same time, this site will try to continue to warn others that NONE is authorized to change Christ’s church and God’s directives for His church.


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Me Too

August 30 2006, 11:52 AM 

It is frustrating to see the church I have grown up in become a shell of itself. It's like all great organizations, companies, governments, and yes, even churches; always taken down by greed, corruption, inability to adapt, and power struggles.

You can say, "God wouldn't let THAT happen to HIS church." And you'd be right. Kind of makes you wonder about our claim to be "THE One, TRUE Church."

I don't know our future, and not to be a downer, but I do know it's near as bright as our past. Fighting and criticism (much like what I see here) is eating us alive.

The irony: If the guys who started this site would have NOT started it, and worked, in a positive way, toward helping their local church be unified, the Kingdom would be much better off. But in true Church of Christ form, they band together and criticize, and become part of the problem.

I guess it's true. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

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I Know What You Mean

September 12 2006, 6:33 PM 

I agree. It is very sad. This site is very sad. There is a complete vacuum of love here.

As an example, here is what they proudly tout as their "Quote of the Month" (on the home page, left hand column, about half-way down):

"The very term "jazz," according to the Cassell's Dictionary of Word and Phrase Origins, is a Negro slang word for sexual intercourse. The author of the Dictionary mentions that he was told that the term "Rock and Roll" is also a Negro slang term for the same thing.
"As jazz meant the same thing, it is interesting that the twentieth century's two most significant inventions in popular music both derive from the same Black sexual source"

That is shameful. What does that remotely have to do with anything related to Christianity?

It's sick.

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Re: I Know What You Mean

November 21 2016, 12:28 AM 

It appears that the moderators of this site will have a lot of explaining to do. Matthew 12:36 reads "But I say unto you that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment."

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Re: I Know What You Mean

November 21 2016, 11:16 AM 

I characterize this site as a lack of "consensus" rather than a lack of love.

The attempt to combat change in the worship of the church has to a large extent turned into an endless scramble about the deity of Christ and Godhood.

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: I Know What You Mean

November 22 2016, 2:55 AM 

That's an accurate observation!

Consensus -- the lack of it is typical or characteristic of a religious discussion forum. This site is no exception.

The shift of emphasis from the Change Movement may be partly attributed to what the change agents in the brotherhood have already accomplished. The mega churches of Christ have already been transitioned to being Community Churches. It appears that rural congregations are difficult to convert.

There are hundreds of religious topics that need to be discussed, but obviously members of the church of Christ find it more appealing to discuss the usual subject matters that pertain to instrumental music in the assembly. On the subject of the deity of Christ and Godhood, members of the church should be more aware than claimed that the Trinity doctrine has its own history.

To God's followers in the Old Testament, Trinity was an unknown commodity -- they worshiped and served the only true God and Creator; there was not the slightest hint that the "Holy Ghost" was a PERSON in the "Trinity"; and the coming Messiah (born only 2000 years ago) was only prophesied.

This was so in the 1st century church. The early Christians did not wonder or had to worry whether or not "the Holy Ghost" was God.

Around the 4th century, the Trinitarian doctrine was born.

The Restoration Movement did not endorse nor teach the Trinity dogma. By the 1940s, the dogma was accepted and taught by some preachers in the church of Christ. The Charismatic Movement, with the emphasis on the power of the Holy Ghost and "His" direct influence upon the Christian, greatly helped in the propagation of the dogma.

So now many churches of Christ and individual Christians have fully embraced this doctrine, just like Protestantism has, generally speaking.

Our attempt in discussing Godhood is to return to what the Scripture has revealed to us, without reliance upon the tradition stemming from the apostatized "Roman" Catholic Church and from the accepting Protestant Churches -- the man-made tradition now embraced by churches in the last several decades.

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Re: I Know What You Mean

November 23 2016, 9:31 AM 

Attributing the Holy Spirit as a being that indwells the individual Christian shunts aside the emphasis of the indwelling word, and as such places one's feelings as the basis for decision-making. After all, if one feels a certain way, he or she can attribute that as the spirit's prompting. The unfortunate effect, however, is the Word is relegated to a second-place running.

In this contest, the Word loses, while the spirit wins.

Pioneer preachers were quite aware of the excesses of the outpourings of the spirit at Cane Ridge, as well as the possibility that the personal indwelling point of view opens the door for works of healing, similar to those described in the Bible. 2/3 of Christians believe that miraculous healing is possible today, and 1/4 believe that they have been so healed. So we are dealing with a Christian population that is open to acceptance of the indwelling spirit and its power in healing.

The rational model of John Locke, discounted the active role of the Holy Spirit in healing, so they suggested that the indwelling Word, and not the Spirit, was the secret to internal and external health. By using this logic, advocates of miraculous healing could be held at bay.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: I Know What You Mean

November 23 2016, 1:39 PM 

HUMILITY The rational model of John Locke, discounted the active role of the Holy Spirit in healing, so they suggested that the indwelling Word, and not the Spirit, was the secret to internal and external health. By using this logic, advocates of miraculous healing could be held at bay.

Pioneer preachers were quite aware of the excesses of the outpourings of the spirit at Cane Ridge,

Earlier the outrages at Cane Ridge would have been denounced as witchcraft. Not even Stone continued to believe that a holy spirit person caused people to snarl and fight over garbage and bark up trees. Those who were identified as churches of Christ did not participate and denounced the events as INDUCED. Particularly the Black gatherings where shouting and drumming were instrumental.

David Young and the North Boulevard Church has always wanted to reproduce Cane Ridge

Hodge said- of Stone:

"We have seen that enthusiasm and fanaticism, in their wildest shapes, have attended them--that jealousy, envy, hatred, evil surmisings, bitter revilings, heart-burnings, unholy schism and strifes, have followed close in their train--that spiritual pride, censoriousness, a Pharisaic disposition, and a spirit that trusts too much in suggestions, impulses, and consequently, that underrates the word of God, is always associated with them." (Stone Biography, p. 384).

"The Baptists had a peculiar appeal to the masses. Their preachers, usually with very slight education, knew their audiences and how to address them in language (with a musical cadence) which would hold their attention and bring conviction. They tended to be highly emotional." (Kenneth, Latourette, p. 1037).

"For the desire of the teacher for power, combining with the desire of the taught for certainty, must tend always to efforts at making the sign, which is to secure both, still more awful and convincing, by still greater and more awful attestations. A fresh miracle must be provided to silence each fresh heresy, a new prodigy to confirm each new dogma." (j. Hastings, The Greater Texts of the Bible, 1 Cor., p. 7).

"The camp meeting was well introduced by the beginning of the next century. Excitement was intense. This was largely the result of impassioned preaching, earnest exhortation, loud prayers, and energetic singing. Bodily exercises, as dropping, jerking, and barking, often manifested themselves, but since they too often brought disrepute upon religion, they were frequently condemned by the better educated of all denominations." (Jenning, Walter W., Origin and Early History of the Disciples of Christ, p. 28, Standard).

This is as ancient as Mount Sinai and before.

"Oh men without understanding! Judge ye rightly of what is said. For if it were necessary to give one's self to some pleasure for the refreshment of the body, whether were it better to do so among the rivers and woods and groves,

where there are entertainments and convivialities and shady places,
or where there is the maddness of demons, and cuttings of hands,
and emasculations, and fury and mania, and dishevelling of hair,

and shoutings and enthusiasms and howlings, and all those thing which are done with hyprocrisy for the counfounding of the unthinking, when you offer your prescribed prayers, and thanksgivings even to those who are deader than the dead?" (The Clemetine Homilies, Homily XI, Chapt XIV, Ante Nicene Fathers, Vol 8, p. 287).

The Word of God spoken by Jesus Christ is the RATIONAL DISCOURSE OF GOD: the opposite of rational is IRRATIONAL. Jesus command was that others teach and observe what HE commanded to be taught: The Spirit of God was what the Father BREATED into Jesus. Spirit means wind or breath and never a "god" person other than Apollon.

John Locke was a rational student of the RATIONAL Word. Those who claim that John Locke is the father of the WORD or LOGOS principle discount the Bible and most of recorded history which never thought of the BREATH of God as a REQUIRED GOD PERSON.

John Locke: Schism Let us now consider schism, which is a CRIME near akin to it; for both these words seem unto me to signify an ill-grounded separation in ecclesiastical communion made about things not necessary. But since use, which is the supreme law in matter of language, has determined that

heresy relates to errors in faith, and

schism to those in worship or discipline, we must consider them under that distinction.

Schism, then, for the same reasons that have already been alleged, is nothing else but a separation made in the communion of the Church upon account of something in divine worship or ecclesiastical discipline that is not any necessary part of it.

Now, nothing in worship or discipline can be necessary to Christian communion (unity) but what Christ our legislator, or the Apostles by INSPIRATION of the Holy Spirit, have commanded in express words.

John Locke simply READ the Word:

Eph. 2:20 And are built upon [EDUCATED by] the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

In a word, he that denies NOT anything that the Holy Scriptures teach in express words, nor MAKES a SEPARATION upon occasion of anything that is not manifestly contained in the sacred text- however he may be nicknamed by any sect of Christians and declared by some or all of them to be utterly void of true Christianity- yet in deed and in truth this man cannot be either a heretic or schismatic.

So, the "scholars" who claim that John Locke was the father of the REGULATIVE PRINCIPLE are ANTI-WORD or LOGOS and therefore ANTI-God. None of them have ever read any John Locke but parrot their "doctors of the law" who try to discount the WORD by claiming that THEY are indwelled by ONE THIRD of a Godhead. Dianna's thread proves that you can literally DISABLE the RATIONAL (Logos, Word) by attacking the emotional hemisphere which was created to respond to the attack of a Saber Toothed tiger. The Tiger is now PURPOSE DRIVEN replaced by substituting the WORD with emotion. THEY say that God demands "unity in diversity" which demands that YOU (selfish weasel) allow US to impose ANTI christian practices to attract the World. The World or Kosmos or the ecumenical they want to build on the widow's purse is defined as the "kingdom of the Devil" and Jesus doesn't pray for them.

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Nov 23, 2016 4:18 PM

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Idle words are YOUR words and ANTI Logos or Regulative Principle

November 21 2016, 9:30 PM 

Stan and Matthew 12:36

It appears that the moderators of this site will have a lot of explaining to do. Matthew 12:36 reads "But I say unto you that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment."

It is important to know what the meaning of IS is. Jesus said that those who SPEAK ON THEIR OWN are the sons of the Devil. We try to post LOTS of God's Word and Jesus told the apostles that the world would hat them. There is not a remote hint that God is a family of three members as well invented and taught at LU. On the other hand, we have posted dozens of passages which have Jesus and others defining Himself as the SON OF GOD who by definition has a FATHER. Stan loves to hear Bill say that the son IS the father and the latter day NOT-historic trinitarians say that God became flesh and bones.

John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory:
.....but he that seeketh his glory that sent him,
.....the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

John called those who deny God the Father and the Man Jesus whom God made to be both Lord and Christ Antichrists. By claiming that A spirit is telling the musical soul snatchers to deliberately sown discord "cause we gonna save more souls" they do NOT Justify Jesus or the Father Who sent Him and BREATHED the WORD or Regulative Principle into Him.

Matt 12:34 O generation of VIPERS, how can ye, being evil, speak good things?
.....for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Matt 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

Matt 12:36 But I say unto you,
.....That every idle word that men shall speak,
.....they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

An Idle Word is Otiosus: leasure, unoccupied, not official but PRIVATE words

Matt 12:37 For by THY words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

The WORDS of God delivered by Jesus and left for our "memory" is called SPIRIT and LIFE because the WORD of God is the only creative or educating source IF you are a Christian. A disciple OF Christ never debates the TEXT but obeys the command to PREACH it by READING it.

God IS WORD and Jesus SPEAKS only what God BREATHED into Him. THAT word is:
h3056. lo/go logos,

[linked image]

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Musicc in Matthew 7

November 21 2016, 2:16 PM 

Stan found this old thread which is not crowded. When I study a passage Ii try to honor the context and look where any word might lead me. That is called Word Mining. While all of the "ore" might not contain gold, the evidence can be used to EXCLUDE anything which "those who speak on their own" insert: Jesus says that they are sons of the Devil. Those of the Word SPEAK or SAY; those of the Devil DO which means WORK.

Stan knows that the sermon uses a word or phrase to launch the lecture. Therefore, almost all sermons violate the Word, Logos or Regulative Principle. They dishonor the Mind of God who breathed (spirit) and Jesus certified the message and the eye-- and ear--witnesses left us a memory. Corrupting the Word is a word meaning "selling one's learning at retail" in the same way a prostitute sells other body parts.

ONE ONE SIDE the hypocrite include acting rituals or anything performed

The Little flock speaks or reads THE WORD. That was the command beginning with the church in the wilderness.

ON THE OTHER SIDE the prophesiers [sermons, songs, instruments] trying to "make the lambs dumb before the slaughter."

[linked image]

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Nov 22, 2016 12:23 AM

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Dianna Howell
(Login dianna01)

Just what IS corporate worship?

November 22 2016, 1:21 PM 

Mark F. Says "It is good to discuss the pros and cons of what kind of illustration we use in our bible classes. It is good to discuss the negatives and postitives of a certain author's thoughts. It is good to discuss what we are focusing on in our corporate worship, whether we are trying to please God or ourselves. There is reason to have this DISCUSSION/DIALOGUE. But the purpose of any real discussion is to provide different points of view so that we can GROW in our understanding (both parties grow). None of us have all of the answers! None of us will ever have all the answers until we stand in God's presence."

I am not familiar with the concept or term "corporate worship". This is a confusing statement, when we are told to work our own salvation with fear and trembling. Can the assembly facilitate spiritual worship? The assembly can certainly teach me what it means to worship in the spirit with the truth, but no one can worship for me. Should other members be held accountable for my sins? Will those who are teachers be held accountable for what they teach. We do have scripture confirming this, and that we should be careful how we teach others. This is extremely terrifying to me, and should be a warning to all. I don't want to be the cause of someone losing what little understanding they have. If I truly love you, then I would help you at the risk of my own life to point you to the only truth, which was delivered to us by one man,, Jesus Christ the righteous, and the apostles he chose to deliver that truth after his sacrifice.

Philippians 2:12 (KJV)
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

2 Peter 2:1-3 (KJV)
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. [2] And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. [3] And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

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Kenneth Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Just what IS corporate worship?

November 22 2016, 3:17 PM 

One of the ugliest concepts and an abomination is the fairly new "worship minister" who is hired to spends all week organizing, rehearsing and performing a "worship service" for those who feed their face. The North Atlanta apostate church preacher says "WE PLAN TO OFFER A VARIETY OF WORSHIP EXPERIENCES."

The woman at the well was more literate and ethical: she understood that "Messias will tell us all things" and Jesus statement that worship was not in the PLACES but IN THE SPIRIT and devoted to THE TRUTH.

Paul said that the "worship" component must be IN THE SPIRIT and not IN THE FLESH. The reason was to prevent the Concision and Dogs from getting into their flesh.

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What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

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At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

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The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

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