Re: Good Post
|November 9 2011, 9:35 PM |
Richard and TMP, I find your discussion very interesting. I hope you guys continue with it.
|November 9 2011, 11:03 PM |
I Believe that the operative active verb is to SPEAK and all of the resources--psalms, hymns and spiritual songs--include some of the Book of Psalms: Paul would think of the Mizmor of which there are only 50 which are not dedicated to the Levite. The Levites were not commanded by God to play instruments but by God through Moses to STAND IN RANKS to execute any Levite or any priest not on duty for presumption if they came NEAR any holy place or thing. When people use the Neo-Levite Worship Team they are a danger to your spiritual life. Don't expect what Paul called the "many" to be on Christ's side.
The parallel passage in Colossians 3 is THE WORD OF CHRIST. Jesus said that His Words were spirit and life (John 6:63)
Because the sole function of the synagogue (ekklesia) was to teach the Word of God: Preaching is called READING the Word, the word SPEAK fits because music in fact disables the rational (spiritual) brain.
The word SPEAK in the actual texts which informed Paul and others is defined EXPLICITLY as the OPPOSITE of poetry or music
lOGOS is the ANTITHESIS of MYHTOHS
Logos is the Word and Myhthos is the opposite of recorded history.
In the Greek literature mythos and sophos (rhetoric, music, drama) is identified as the female or goddess form of worship while LOGOS is the manly or patriarchal.
Early scholars (Philo etc.) believed that the singing AND melody was both IN the heart or spirit: that's what Ephesians 5 says. That was important for Paul who often defined SPIRITUAL words to replace the Pagan Words. For Instance GRACES or MUSES were religious musicians for "gods" such as Apollo (Abaddon, Apollyon). The ANTI thesis has Paul defining Jesus Christ as GRACE personified as WORD was personified. This Grace has appeared TEACHING us to reject the natural meaning in the Greek World.
The SINGING words are used in the Greek literature to define enchantment, witchcraft or sorcery. John in Revelation 18 defined the singers (Muses) and instrument players as sorcerers. That is because they manipulated the minds of people to implant false religions.
Melody as PSALLO if FIRST of all just touching or plucking with the fingers but NEVER with a plectrum. By putting the plucking IN the heart or spirit Paul radically excluded anything that is not pluckable by the fingers. Because many were just out of paganism, that would exclude percussion and wind instruments used by the pagans to bring on what Paul called "madness." It would by definition exclude the harps used by and recorded in history by pagans who flaunted their golden plectrum or pick. Paul expands His meaning so we cannot be deluded by using the word GRACE in the HEART in Colossians 3. True musical melody is the word "melos" and Paul's use of melody and grace defined the quality of SPEAKING. Psallo NEVER defines musical melody in any sense
None of the Bible is metrical in a tuneful sense and you cannot SPEAK (cantillate) the Word of God (only) if your life depended on it. Tuneful melody did not originate until after Calvin.
THESIS: SPEAK to YOURSELVES using "that which is written for our learning.
ANTIthesis: singING and MakING IN the heart to God as the only recipient of worship
If you look at Ephesians before the "music" trap you will notice that Paul is very carefully preparing us with several thesis--antithesis verses.
You are a Bitter Man!
|November 9 2011, 1:12 AM |
That is YOU for everyone to see. Thank you! You couldn't have said it better. Comparing worship preferrences to bringing your dog to be blessed at church. Donnie, start your own church and take the dog there. Just call it 'The Church of Donnie.' You've pretty much already done that without admitting it.
TMP had it dead on......Donnie the Truth hurts only those who oppose it.....that is why you are in anguish.
Just Trying to Follow the Logic of an Instrumental Music Lover
|November 9 2011, 1:48 AM |
You're welcome. I was just trying your logic: "If God doesn't say 'NOT TO,' He authorizes it."
Funny, the Roman Catholic Church was the first to introduce instrumental music in the history of "Christianity." Funny, again, that the Roman Catholic Church was the first, if not the only, church to observe the "Bless Your Pet" ritual.
Dave, now I know what "preferences" means when you say it.
People Like What They Like
|November 8 2011, 6:27 PM |
Thank you TMP....right ON the mark!
I Know What I Like
|November 9 2011, 12:45 AM |
Nice participation, Dave.
Here's what Dave likes: Bring his favorite musical device, though lifeless and inanimate, to the assembly and perform (play the instrument) to his heart's content as well as to enhance his worship.
Here's what I like: Bring my favorite pet [cat or dog--haven't decided yet], alive and healthy, to the assembly in order to be "blessed" by the evangelist. The ritual will please and satisfy my being, make me feel good.
The setting is at Dave's home congregation where he serves as an elder. His congregation is "non-instrumental"; neither has it "blessed" anyone's favorite pet before.
What would be the outcome if both activities were conducted during "worship" at Clemson?
Church is School (only) of the Word (only)
|November 9 2011, 3:05 PM |
People need to know WHAT IS A DISCIPLE? or they may be attending a Synagogue of Satan.
People need to know WHAT DO DISCIPLES DO when they assemble THEMSELVES at the Ekklesia
If you grasp in the words of the Campbells who had read the Bible:
Church is A School of Christ
Worship is Reading and Musing the Word.
Christ (the Rock) ordained The Church in the wilderness.
..This was INCLUSIVE of Rest (from), Reading and Rehearsing the Word God.
..This was EXCLUSIVE of "vocal or instrumental rejoicing."
This was called School (German SKUL) and not a "worship service". Consistent with that the New Testament defining "worship" is inclusive of giving attendance to the public reading of the Word. If you GIVE HEED to the sermonizer or singer you are WORSHIPING them and paying for it too.
Acts 15:21 For Moses
....of old time
....hath in every city
....them that preach him,
....being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Christ commanded it in the wilderness and that NEVER CHANGED.
Jesus endorsed the synagogue (school of the Word)
Jesus commanded the Ekklesia which originates NO RESOURCE on its own.
Paul commanded "come together, assemble, gather" using synagogue words (School of the Word)
Paul commanded how Timothy was to carry out His vocational ministry: working to minister to the poor.
1Timothy 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to [public]reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
The historic church continued that for centuries.
God commanded HIS WORD as the only resource for the assembly.
None of it is metrical so no one "sang" until post Calvin when Psalms (only) were REWRITTEN and set to meter and sung in unison (only) (Rom 15 ONE mind and ONE mouth: direct command)
No effort at PROOF or AUTHORITY was needed until the Disciples used the word PSALLO as a last gasp in 1878.
Parables: (to fool the foolish clergy says Jesus):
A not-as-cute-as-they-think team of singers decides to PARTNER with the Brain surgeon in the operating room. Even if "there is no law against it" or "that is not a salvation issue" no one would be so simple as not to grasp the terminal arrogance. Christ (Holy Spirit) is the SOLE Teacher in the assembly through reading and discussing HIS Word in theProphets and Apostles
So, Here is the LAW:
YES Singy-Clapy, Dancy-Prancy, Lispy-Whisper in the bathroom or a "venue" where people have CHOSEN to pay for their performane.
NO No whiney-Piney, creepy-crawly praise singers IN THE OPERATING ROOM which I have "laid by in store" for my surgery.
You may not have any problem with MUSICAL WORSHIP TEAMS but apparently up to half of the "owners" are repulsed and leave even when the ACU patternism was to STOP teaching the Bible condeming instruments for a decade and SEDUCING the children through musical retreats (Boasts Richard Atchley AKA ACU.
No, there is no "law of singing" or any of what we call "music" concept in the Bible even when the Levites were helping to burn the goats.
No, singing is not an ACT of worhship: Church is Bible Class and not a drama. Riding in the car is not a School of Christ.
No, singing is not a sin: it has just been exploded to make the "Lamb dumb before the slaughter."
No, playing instruments is not a sin UNLESS you think that you can PARTNER with the Spirit and PERFORM for God while assaulting a large part of the "silent before the slaughter" audience.
No, playing an instruments and singing songs out of the "blue" book is not sin because none of the Blue books cared a hoot about the command to use "one mind and one mouth speaking that which is written for our learning.
The mortal-terminal sin at Mount Sinai was performing music while pretending to REST on the sabbath (REST) DAY. Polluting the Sabbath is from Chalal (playing the flute, steal one's inheritance, pollute or prostite."
God HATED singing and music in the TEMPLE while stealing from the poor (lay by in store)
God HATES those who SOW DISCORD. The confession of the changeling-hirelings mostly out of ACU intended and calculated that they could "lose up to half of the congregation" and make up for it using YOUR stolen property.
Using various terms Paul and Peter always:
EXCLUDE all of the performing arts and crafts: they create "mental excitement" Paul, or impose a laded burden (forms of such songs) which "create spiritual anxiety through religious rituals."
That ENABLES the edification or educational task to teach the Word of Christ.
If you decide to be a disciple you cannot depend on people who prepared just enough to be a professional religionists. When you begin to read the Bible for yourself and define words beyond the "sacred pages" of books of theology or simple lexicons you will discover that the Bible and all but some post-reformation STATE church scholars 100% of them affirming that the Scripture are ANTITHETICAL to all of the pagan religions who understood that music was the best way to pick the pockets of the poor.
Re: A discussion of music (outside of the worship)
|November 9 2011, 3:48 PM |
TMP: you will notice that the nested posts just slide off to the right, so I have moved this back..
I once listened to a lecture by a Jewish Christian scholar. He talked about that about 100 years before Christ, the Jewish Rabbis forbid instrumental worship in the synagogues outside of Israel because they felt that they brought in pagan influences...instrumental worship was still allowed in the temple. Since the Christian movement blossomed in the synagogues, the Christian "services" held there would not have had instruments. So does this mean necessarily mean that God forbade instrumental music, or perhaps it was a tradition of men that caused for there to not be instrumental music in the early church?
I know of no history of any synagogue at any time or place which had any musical content: not singing as we know it. No post-Christian synagogue had music or instruments until in a liberal synagogue in Germany in the year 1815: this split the synagogue and the judge told the rabbi:"No, you cannot steal their church house" No one ever played instruments IN the Holy Place or Most Holy Place: it was a capital offense in recorded Scripture.
One of the problems with songs and sermons is that we have all missed a lot of Bible especially the Old Testament. I just want to make a statement here without proof for now. Even the rabbi missed a lot of history.
Jacob (Isa 49) warned everyone to NOT go to the assemblies of Levi or enter into a covenant with them.
When Israel rose up to PLAY at Mount Sinai God turned them over to worship the starry host.
The Levites jumped at the chance to EXECUTE 3,000 of their mostly brothers because of musical idolatry.
When God sliced of the tribe of Levi to conduct the Sabazianism Moses commanded (not instruments) that the Levites be like a praetorian guard.
They were not Musical Worship Ministers but SOOTHSAYERS [prophesiers] with Instruments: Moses warned that if any Levite or ANY one not a priest on duty came NEAR any holy thing or INTO any Holy Place (typical of the church) they were to be EXECUTED. THIS is the "Recorded command": David commanded the "musical" instruments.
After the terminal affront with the elders demanding a king and after David had spilled all of that blood, the surplus military noise makers were assigned by David to stand in ranks around the presumeed holy things: NO civillian could come close.
God HIMSELF picked the ONE PLACE where this worship of the starry host was quarantined behind city gates. Those imposing instruments claim that "a" spirit told them that Hezekiah's Plague stopping animal slaughter proves that GOD COMMANDS INSTRUMENTAL PRAISE and somewhat intimidating YOU HAD BETTER NOT DISOBEY.
If you back up to 2 Chronicles 28 Ahaz has enhanced the infant burning to Molech--The Levites were an old priesthood devoted to infant burning in Egypt and Molech worhsip in the wilderness.
Ahaz REMOVED the musical sacrifices OUT SIDE of the gates to which they were quarantined by God.
This caused the PROMISED plague to break out just as God threatened if they did not keep their horrors behind closed gates.
Hezekiah SUGGESTED a plan to God for what ammounted to an exorcism:
The animals were slaughtered and atonement made for city, Judah, King, Temple.
As an AFTERTHOUGHT they burned Goats for ISRAEL which had defected totally.
ONLY for this Burnt Offering did the Levites make a great noise and THIS is said to be by the command of David the King upto 300 years earlier.
Christ in the prophets says that God DID NOT COMMAND sacrifices or burnt offerings when He saved them by grace from Egypt.
So: Because of Musical Idolatry God quarantined the Levites standing guard and warning people NOT to get even close. This was abandonment to the most horrible Blood and Flesh Lust to an lost people.
The did not play these Levite-played instruments OUTSIDE of closed gates because God promised them a PLAGUE if they did.
The godly "congregation" of the non-Levi tribe attended synagogue in their own home area for RESTING reading and rehearsing the Word. Jesus didn't change that.
The ONLY command existing about instruments is that ONLY the Levites made NOISE to threaten you NOT to come near. The Command--if you wish to Judaize--is that if ANY of the neo-Levite Musical Worship Team comes INTO the Holy Place (typical of church) they were COMMANDED to be executed by their brethren: the Levite Musical Execution Squad.
Is Non-Practice a Tradition?
|November 11 2011, 4:20 AM |
... So does this mean necessarily mean that God forbade instrumental music, or perhaps it was a tradition of men that caused for there to not be instrumental music in the early church?
I am listing a number of "traditions" of the Roman Catholic Church:
The change agents who are disturbing and creating turmoil in the church have invented this logic and brainwashed their followers into thinking that NOT USING MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS in the assembly is a tradition in the church of Christ. Considering the fact that virtually all of the thousands of the congregations of the church of Christ do not use mechanical music devices in their assemblies.
- Prayers for the dead
- Wax Candles
- Veneration of angels and dead saints
- Worship of Mary, the mother of Jesus, and the use of the term, "Mother of God"
- Priests began to dress differently from the laity
- Extreme Unction
- Doctrine of Purgatory, first established by Gregory the Great
- Prayers directed to Mary, or to dead saints
- Papacy: of pagan origin; the title of pope or universal bishop, was first given to the bishop of Rome by the wicked emperor Phocas
- Kissing of the Pope's feet
- Worship of the cross, images and relics
- Baptism of bells, instituted by Pope John XIV
- Canonization of dead saints, first by Pope John XV
- Fasting on Fridays and during Lent
- Celibacy of the priesthood: decreed by Pope Hildebrand, Boniface VII
- Rosary, or prayer beads introduced by Peter the Hermit
- ... etc. ... etc. ... etc.
I listed the traditions (well, many of them are actually heresies and are of pagan nature) of the Roman Catholic Church. It appears that the above activities are practices.
It's illogical to state that "NOT FASTING DURING LENT" is a tradition of the Roman Catholic Church.
It's also illogical for the change agents to claim that churches of Christ that have nothing to do with operating mechanical music devices in the assembly have that as a tradition.
Since a tradition must have a beginning [a begin date], it is logical to say that when a church or a congregation of the church of Christ apes a denominational practice, such as operating musical devices in its assembly [sampled it one Sunday and liked the flavor (it felt good)] and officially makes it a permanent activity, that practice becomes a tradition.
Therefore, the change agents going around introducing and implementing "holy entertainment" via musical performances are the ones who are involved in that particular practice or tradition.
"Tradition" is a RACA word
|November 11 2011, 5:08 PM |
We noted that God QUARANTINED both the single place and Jacob-Cursed Levites behind closed gates. Because all of the godly people were QUARANTINED to their own area to Rest, Read and Rehears the Word with "vocal or instrumental rejoicing" forbidden, "Never the Twain Shall Meet." If the Jewish ever ond single time never sang with instrumental accompaniment, and the PATTERNISTS have only the national headquarters of a nation abandoned to worship the starry host; and this 2 Chron 29 "Pattern" had not been "acted out" for close to 300 years, then we can say that God NEVER commanded singing with instruments for the congregational assembly.
Here is one of the proofs that God QUARANTINED the altar to ONE PLACE ONLY. You bring a PLAGUE on the congregation if you try to imitate it under the ploy of claiming to be a church of Christ.
Josh 22:21 Then the children of Reuben and the children of Gad and the half tribe of Manasseh answered, and said unto the heads of the thousands of Israel,
Josh 22:22 The Lord God of gods, the Lord God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the Lord, (save us not this day,)
Josh 22:23 That we have built us an altar to turn from following the Lord,
......or if to offer thereon burnt offering or meat offering,
......or if to offer peace offerings thereon, let the Lord himself require it;
Josh 22:24 And if we have not rather done it for fear of this thing, saying, In time to come your children might speak unto our children, saying, What have ye to do with the Lord God of Israel?
Josh 22:25 For the Lord hath made Jordan a border between us and you, ye children of Reuben and children of Gad; ye have no part in the Lord: so shall your children make our children cease from fearing the Lord.
Josh 22:26 Therefore we said, Let us now prepare to build us an altar, not for burnt offering, nor for sacrifice:
......But that it may be a witness between us, and you, and our generations after us, that we might do the service of the Lord before him with our burnt offerings, and with our sacrifices, and with our peace offerings; that your children may not say to our children in time to come, Ye have no part in the Lord.
Josh 22:28 Therefore said we, that it shall be, when they should so say to us or to our generations in time to come, that we may say again,
Josh 22:27 Behold the pattern of the altar of the Lord, which our fathers made,
......not for burnt offerings, nor for sacrifices; but it is a witness between us and you.
Josh 22:29 God forbid that we should rebel against the Lord, and turn this day from following the Lord,
......to build an altar for burnt offerings, for meat offerings, or for sacrifices,
......beside the altar of the Lord our God that is before his tabernacle.
There was NEVER nay Levite Music (noise) before the Tabernacle althought the Levites as Execution Ministers would still kill you (not of Levi and not on rare duty) if you came near any holy thing or into the temple Holy Place--as pattern of the church to validate the direct command against "vocal or instrumental rejoicing."
1. God abandoned Israel to Worship the Starry Host: He did not command sacrifices or burn offerings.
2. He quarantined that worship (hard bondage) to ONE PLACE to which the masses of people probably never attended.
3. The command in 2 Chronicles 29 (in clear text) from God was that the Warrior Levites STAND IN RANKS to execute any NOT-abandoned Jew who came NEAR what was called exorcism involving ONLY the Civil-Military-Clergy complex
4. Joshua proves that this be at only ONE altar which was still at Gibeon with no instruments.
5. Rather than execute David God gave him an UP AND GOING JEBUSITE High place devoted to Star and Serpent worship.
6. Christ in the prophets says that God DID NOT COMMAND sacrifices or burnt offerings when He saved them BY Grace THROUGH faith when He baptized them in the Red Sea and gave them a Holy Spirit guide.
Those who do not grasp that cannot be Disciples / Christians whom Christ has permitted to be an elder CENIed to "that which Christ commanded to be taught. Note that he did not ordaine preachers who sermonize or musicians in Ephesians 4.
|This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 220.127.116.11 on Nov 11, 2011 10:07 PM|