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Donnie Cruz
(no login)
65.1.220.100

8 A.M. Assembly Under Siege by the Contemporary Music “Notebook”

October 10 2006, 3:59 AM 

Nothing against contemporary songs that will someday become traditional hymns, but in the last couple of Sundays, the early assembly at 8 o’clock sang only 2 hymns vs. 5 quite-carefully-chosen contemporary praise songs on October 1; 4 hymns along with 4 quite carefully chosen praise songs from the “notebook” on October 8…. This is the methodology of incremental or smooth transitioning—the ultimate objective being that at some point, especially when the senior saints are no longer a pain or an obstruction, the transformation will have been successfully completed.

On the other hand, on one Sunday, the 10:15—11:45 a.m. “contemporary worship” guide listed 12 contemporary musical pieces—without a single hymn—these were from notebook #180, notebook #181, notebook #98, notebook #101, notebook #168, notebook #25, notebook #38, notebook #119, notebook #54, notebook #66, notebook #134, and notebook #179. Note that there was not a single hymn sung—isn’t that the trend that hymns are bound for extinction at Madison? Thanks to Madison’s full-time professional “ministry” staff—the “Worship Leader.”

On Sunday following, the “contemporary worship” guide listed 10 all-contemporary musical pieces—again, without a singly hymn—these were from notebook #160, notebook #32, notebook #202, notebook #153, notebook #110, notebook #100, notebook 187, notebook #170, notebook #26, and notebook #106. Note that there was not a single hymn sung—isn’t that the trend … that hymns are bound for extinction at Madison? Thanks to Madison’s full-time professional “ministry” staff—the “Worship Leader.” The list of praise songs and choruses was shorter this time due to the “World Christian Broadcasting” presentation. But I must let you know that two notable “praise” songs were:

  1. “Clap Your Hands”—an action song, of course. “Clap your hands [clap-clap] all ye people, shout to God [clap-clap-clap] with a voice of triumph. Clap your hands [clap-clap-clap] ….”

  2. “I Was Made for This”—guess what? “Oh, I was made for this: to know Your tender kiss, to know a love divine, to know this love is mine, and I was made to laugh… My feet were made to dance … You give me more and more, for I was made for You… When I was far away, You ran to welcome me. I felt Your warm embrace… Oh, I as made for this. I was made to love You Jesus. I was made for this….”

Lest I forget, I must tell you that the congregation has several men who are capable of leading singing, and it could very well save the saints’ financial contribution. The church can properly and wisely use the money for scriptural purposes and reasons—instead of paying a full-time professional musician, who already has a flourishing “Christian” music business [IOW, “in the name of religion”] of his own.

I wish I had the answer to the following question(s): Since Kevin Dunnebacke and Mark Spears—very talented as well—led singing on separate Sundays in the absence of the “Worship Leader,” were they paid for their services also? If not, why not? If so, did Keith Lancaster refuse payment for those two weeks [of “arm wagging”] he didn’t do when he was absent and gone, perhaps, to get paid for his tours and concerts?

BTW, the Acappella News has recently listed the following events:

  • 10/7/2006: Cuyahoga Falls, OH
    Venue: First United Methodist Church
    245 Portage Trail … Time: 7:00:00 PM … Contact Info: …

  • 10/21/2006: Phoenix, AZ
    Venue: Church of the Nations
    11640 N. 19th Avenue … Time: 7:00:00 PM
    Event Info: Phoenix Rescue Mission Benefit Concert … Contact Info: …

I may be doing some advertising here … or investigating? Anyway, it is not a secret—visit the Worship Leader’s http://www.acappella.org/.

“The Acappella Company Moves — After 24 years, Acappella’s home base of operations has moved from Paris to Nashville, Tennessee, providing many new opportunities for the guys. Having the group and the studio closer to their producer, Keith Lancaster has allowed for more creative time in the studio between the producer and the group.”

It looks like the staff infection is spreading—not the gospel of Christ.

Donnie

 
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Roger Bradley
(no login)
64.185.31.101

I'm confused

October 10 2006, 4:27 PM 

So let me get this straight. According to your last post, Madison is sinning because they don't sing hymns, but instead, sing songs YOU don't like? And Acapeela moving from Paris to Nashville is wrong because?????

You, however will continue to handle it like the upstanding Christian man you are. Just as Jesus would: Calling them names, discrediting their ministry, judging them, and telling lies about them, as well as putting on display your clear ignorance of a full-time ministry, and the concept of salary.

My question is, where in scripture do you get the authorization to rebel against the elders of the church?

It's a simple question that requires a simple answer. One word, with a couple of numbers after it. (Book, chapter and verse- you know the concept well, because you ask for it all the time). Can you answer this? Truthfully, I mean.

 
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Ken Sublett
(no login)
69.19.14.34

AUTHORITY?

October 10 2006, 10:57 PM 

Not even Jesus modelled COMMAND AUTHORITY and he outlawed it for the APOSTLES. How do elders suddenly get this AUTHORITY over NOT-CHURCH activities.

Elders are RECOGNIZED but not ELECTED because they "are already laboring to the point of exhaustion in preaching and teaching." Since there is NO ROLE called PREACHER we understand Paul in Ephesians 4 to define the evangelist with a GO button and the elders as the sole PASTOR-TEACHERS. Double honor means an HONORARIUM but not a salary.

Beginning as the "church in the wilderness" the synagogue had the role of READING, and REHEARSING the WORD while they RESTED from the laded burden of a collection plate and STAFF INFECTION.

Jesus exampled and proved the READING of the synagogue, the word EKKLESIA means synagogue means "school of the Bible." Paul directly commanded NOT pleasuring which is the antics of the CROOKED generation FROM WHOM Jesus died to free us. To those "competent to teach one another" was added and observed for hundreds of years JUST the Lord's Supper. Singing was an apostasy about c. 400 and preaching came about then. "Moses was PREACHED in the synagogue every Sabbath BEING READ."

The SOLE authority of the elder is to "teach that WHICH HAS BEEN TAUGHT" and the Sabbath--meaning REST which is ANTI-worship--outlawed SPEAKING YOUR OWN WORDS. If the elder is not qualified by HIS OWN HOLY SPIRIT meaning "holding the mysteries of the faith in a clear conscience" then he is NOT qualified in any sense. PEER bonding DOETH NOT AN ELDER MAKE but a WOLF. A wolf is a pervert who allows the CYNICS to enter into the FOLD and howl their attracting songs.

There is NO preacher in a TRUE synagogue of Christ.

Therefore, NO elder has the authority to hire a HIRELING.

Preaching is NOT permitted in the "synagogue" which had no praise service. Therefore, NO praise LEADER which is the most ancient, legalistic superstition know in Cave Man 101aaa.

There is NO Law of giving so if the elders are doing PSYCHOLOGICAL VIOLENCE by using the LAW OF TITHING as at MAD or the LAW OF GIVING then they are NOT ethically or morally BISHOPS who FEED the word--only.

Jesus exampled and Paul commanded THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN or SCRIPTURE for songs and sermons: if they have a HIRELING who composes his own SCRIPTURE then he qualifies as both a SCRIBE and PHARISEE.

Jesus used prophecy to tell us that the HYPOCRITES are performance speakers, singers and musicians. In Revelation John calls them SORCERERS: they are DECEIVING the World even as the SERPENT as a "musical enchanter" wholly seduced Eve.

Therefore, the ELDERS have TAKEN CAPTIVE a group of people and have no more AUTHORITY than anyone who boasts about INFILTRATING and DIVERTING to "turn this into a Theater for Holy Entertainment."

So, YOUR psychological violence will not work because Jesus died to save us FROM that CROOKED generation where CROOKED identifies the "skolion" singers. Remember that Paul said, according to the literature, "Don't get PIPED down or FLUTED down" by the skolion singers known today as the NEW WINESKINERS. Then you SPEAK that which is written.

The RESTORATION meaning according to the Campbell's is just what I have said and further that NO leaders have the authority to ADD the spiritual anxiety of DEBT.

Remember, that Paul said LAY a weekly sum BY YOURSELF for the ONE TIME GIVING only to the DESTITUTE and only if you were WILLING. That means that the ELDERS have no more FUNDING than the Mafia to exercise authority OVER the fleeced lambs.

So, wise up and get yourself an honest job.

 
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Nadab
(no login)
75.32.58.7

Excuse him

October 11 2006, 2:23 AM 

This dicussion is getting interesting (finally). Excuse Sublett for the lie-filled interuption Donnie, as you were saying?????


Roger's question is, where in scripture do you get the authorization to rebel against the elders of the church?

It's a simple question that requires a simple answer. One word, with a couple of numbers after it. (Book, chapter and verse- you know the concept well, because you ask for it all the time). Can you answer this? Truthfully, I mean.


 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
66.19.68.200

Elders Are Not Infallible

October 11 2006, 9:23 AM 

It would be a mistake to believe that just because a man becomes an elder, he also becomes infallible and can never do any wrong or never lead the Church in the wrong direction. Such fallacious thinking would be similar to that which surrounds the pope in the Roman Catholic Church. The New Testament does admonish us not to rebuke elders in general; however, since they are not infallible, the NT also makes provision for dealing with those elders who err:

"Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren" (1 Tim. 5:1 KJV).

"Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality" (1Tim. 5:19-21 KJV).


All members of the Church are accountable to the tenets of Christ. And since elders and other officers of the Church are to set examples for all, they are especially accountable. If elders waver from the path of Christ as outlined in the New Testament, it is the duty of the congregation to take them to task for it and rebuke them before the congregation, according to the New Testament.

Elders who incorporate into worship services the look and feel of performing arts centers, the look and feel of carnival side shows, and the look and feel of the Broadway stage indeed make the Church more like the world. Because such elders defy Romans 12:2, James 4:4, and 1 John 2:15-17 (KJV), they are not fit to hold this office and should be removed unless they repent and turn back to the path of Christ.

 
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Ken Sublett
(no login)
66.82.9.90

NOT excuse, REBUT

October 11 2006, 10:47 AM 

Nablab, I have asserted and can prove that the CORRUPTED word means to SELL AT RETAIL and TO BE AN ADULTERER.

I can prove that there is no INSTITUTE over which elders can RULE: you remember that Shepherds go OUT and collect lost sheep: he has no authority to ENTERTAIN THE GOATS and HIRE the wolves.

Unless you and Roger can PROVE what kind of AUTHORITY they have which CANNOT BE QUESTIONED then and only then can you prove that questioning the self- or peer- selected bonded buddies is NOT TO BE TOLERATED! Heil?

I just don't want the huge number of daily readers to MISS the point that the INSTITUTE is jointly-held and usually coerced into joining property. The monies which go into the member-owned INSTITUTE do not belong to the elders usually led by ONE dominant Alpha Male. I think that Fiduciary Malfeasance could be proved in court: and thank God the CIVIL authorities are loosing their mideaval fear of the NEO-PAPACY. For MOST of the lower income people the STATE with a standard deduction has already swiped the TAX EXEMPT thingy right out from under their noses. That does not prevent the SCAM artists from using the "YOU CAN SAVE MONEY BY GIVING IT TO ME"

Nablab, if you are feeding your face from the Widow's Purse then you are TERMINAL: defending "music"according to the Bible and The Book of Enoch is the MARK that you have fallen and CANNOT get back up.

I just want people to know that you call ABSOLUTE TRUTH a LIE but you cannot DISPROVE a single one. Let the watching world read how NaBlab will defend the Law of Fleecing Honest Workers out of their children's food money.

Let you or Roger-Dodger tell them how "You must not ENTREAT an elder who says GET OVER IT" when you know from Genesis to Revelation and ALL recorded history that they are just feeding the face of the Rich and Famous by the lie of THE LAW OF GIVING and THE LAW OF TITHING. Babble 101aaa knows that suggesting TITHING is robbery and running roughshod back beyond the Cross.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(no login)
70.146.132.151

… but I’m not confused.

October 11 2006, 4:23 AM 

Roger,

I don’t think you’re being fair by saying that “Madison is sinning…” according to my last post. In all of the posts I’ve written, I have never made such a declaration or even an implication. Be careful … I still attend Madison, and there are still many fine Christian folks who are members there. Please don’t blame the congregation, however it is led or misled.

I haven’t said that ALL contemporary musical pieces are evil or that I dislike. But I’ll admit it … that I do like some of the 7-11 [repeat 7 words 11 times ] rah-rah-rah choruses—only if I participated in rallies or campfires for seniors or in sport and other social events. I did list “Clap Your Hands” and “Oh, I was made for this: to know Your tender kiss…,” didn’t I? What a way to demonstrate awe and reverence for our Father in heaven with programmed, rhythmic clapping. What a way to translate the Savior’s agape love and suffering and death on the cross into some erotic praise music!!!

In fact, I mentioned at the outset that there will be some contemporary songs with scriptural messages that are or will and should become hymns that speak the words of Christ or that teach and admonish one another. And I am not talking about “Christian Rock and Rap” musical pieces that only the Praise Team members are capable of singing—but not the congregation.

Did I say that the Acappella company MOVING from Paris to Nashville is wrong? I was just informing. Obviously, you misunderstood the “religious” implication associated with this “business” organization—yeah, you know, that money-making venture in the name of Christianity? A cappella singing that’s combined with unintelligible human sounds that simulate musical instruments anyway? Besides, did you not see the venues: First United Methodist Church and Church of the Nations?

Oh, calling names … discrediting their ministry … judging them … telling lies about them … my clear ignorance of a full-time ministry and the concept of salary—you say?

Well, let me briefly say the following: (1) “Worship Leader”—do a Google search on it; (2) spreading the gospel of Christ to the lost is THE ministry; (3) no, not I, but God is the righteous Judge; (4) the “worship” guide, the Marcher, the Acappella newsletter, hopefully, do not lie; (5) I would not classify the Worship Leader’s arm-wagging task a few hours a week as a full-time ministry; (6) it’s worth repeating … that the musical staff’s salary is not warranted by the Holy Scripture and is a total waste of the saints’ contribution intended to help the needy—not company owners.

And … “the authorization to rebel against the elders of the church,” you say? Hmmm! I do not recall mentioning the elders.

What about, instead, letting the scriptures define or identify for us who the elders are and their functions. Eph. 4:11-12 clearly states that “for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,” he “gave some, [1] apostles; and some, [2] prophets; and some, [3] evangelists; and some, [4] pastors and teachers

Let’s be clear here that the expression “pastors and teachers” in Ephesians 4 is used singly—the elders are teachers—not separately. Titus 1:9 confirms this truth—“Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers…” Also, I Timothy 3:2 states that a bishop must be “apt to teach.” I know you are familiar with the other qualifications of the elders of the church. But the key point is that the elders have a colossal responsibility to be faithful to the word and doctrine so that the congregation is not misled. Disagreeing with the elders, especially when they have succumbed to cultural and social influences that cause conflicts and discord among the members, is not rebelling against the Chief Shepherd.

Roger, I would urge you to re-read the post and try to understand what God’s purpose or directive for His church really is. Wouldn’t you question why 75% of the assembly period is being devoted to “musical worship”? Maybe, I’m being overly simplistic, but I just cannot envision the first century church (as in Acts 20:7) having a “Worship Leader” and a group of musicians, the “Praise Team,” performing to or for the saints in Jerusalem or Ephesus, etc.

Donnie

 
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Roger Bradley
(no login)
64.185.31.101

Why?

October 11 2006, 3:41 PM 

You couldn’t do it, could you? All I asked was, where in scripture does it say that it’s OK for you to rebel against your eldership? All it required was one scripture reference, but that was too much to ask. Oh well, here's my response.

“I don’t think you’re being fair by saying that “Madison is sinning…” according to my last post. In all of the posts I’ve written, I have never made such a declaration or even an implication. Be careful …”

*So, by doing all the horrible things you write about in every post you make, you are not saying they are sinning? So, you admit that what they are doing is NOT wrong. It is just a matter of you not liking it.

SO- that makes you, not a “defender of the faith” as you like to fancy yourself, but really more of a cry baby. I was wondering if you were ever going to admit it. Glad to see you’ve come around.




“I haven’t said that ALL contemporary musical pieces are evil or that I dislike. But I’ll admit it … that I do like some of the 7-11 [repeat 7 words 11 times ] rah-rah-rah choruses—only if I participated in rallies or campfires for seniors or in sport and other social events. I did list “Clap Your Hands” and “Oh, I was made for this: to know Your tender kiss…,” didn’t I? What a way to demonstrate awe and reverence for our Father in heaven with programmed, rhythmic clapping. What a way to translate the Savior’s agape love and suffering and death on the cross into some erotic praise music!!!”

*I don’t understand. You like it or you don’t? You’re saying two different things here. By the way, you’re beginning to sound like Sublett (who, by your own admission is a liar), calling it “erotic” praise music. I would love to hear your reasoning behind that. BUT- if it has anything to do with Zoe, Apollo, whores, flute girls, Pan, or orgies, save it.






“Did I say that the Acappella company MOVING from Paris to Nashville is wrong? I was just informing.”

*Well, let’s see… when you say, “It looks like the staff infection is spreading—not the gospel of Christ.” I’d say that’s a little more than reporting. Quit trying to be all innocent. You’re divisive in the Kingdom, and your actions, thoughts, and writings are contrary to God’s will. Denying it won’t fix it.



“Obviously, you misunderstood the “religious” implication associated with this “business” organization—yeah, you know, that money-making venture in the name of Christianity?”

*There’s nothing wrong with that. If you are Christian, and you have a job, you’re making money in the name of Christ. I detect a hint of jealousy.




“A cappella singing that’s combined with unintelligible human sounds that simulate musical instruments anyway?”

*Your preference of music is boring to some. Remember what Jesus said, “Do unto others…” Would you want someone to talk this way about your preferred style?





“Besides, did you not see the venues: First United Methodist Church and Church of the Nations?”

*So.





“Oh, calling names … discrediting their ministry … judging them … telling lies about them … my clear ignorance of a full-time ministry and the concept of salary—you say?”

*Yes. I do.




“Well, let me briefly say the following: (1) “Worship Leader”—do a Google search on it; (2) spreading the gospel of Christ to the lost is THE ministry; (3) no, not I, but God is the righteous Judge; (4) the “worship” guide, the Marcher, the Acappella newsletter, hopefully, do not lie; (5) I would not classify the Worship Leader’s arm-wagging task a few hours a week as a full-time ministry; (6) it’s worth repeating … that the musical staff’s salary is not warranted by the Holy Scripture and is a total waste of the saints’ contribution intended to help the needy—not company owners.”

*I don’t understand what this paragraph means. It’s a bunch of garbled, unrelated sentence fragments. Could you please re-state the point of it?




“And … “the authorization to rebel against the elders of the church,” you say? Hmmm! I do not recall mentioning the elders.”

*You didn’t mention them in this post, but your actions on this website, and your constant insults and criticism of them and Madison is rebellion.




“What about, instead, letting the scriptures define or identify for us who the elders are and their functions.”

“Disagreeing with the elders, especially when they have succumbed to cultural and social influences that cause conflicts and discord among the members, is not rebelling against the Chief Shepherd.”

*First of all, they haven’t “succumbed to cultural and social influences that cause conflicts and discord among the members”. They have made wise, Biblical, Godly decisions, and a small handful of the members like you have rebelled.

Second- Rebelling against the leaders God has put in place, IS rebelling against Him. At least that’s what HE says, whatever that’s worth to you. Look up Korah in your concordance, and read his story. It reminds me a lot of you.



“Roger, I would urge you to re-read the post and try to understand what God’s purpose or directive for His church really is.”

*Boy, you think quite a bit of yourself don’t you? That’s how we find out God’s will, by reading YOUR posts? What we do without you Donnie?




“Wouldn’t you question why 75% of the assembly period is being devoted to “musical worship?”

*No. Music and singing is one of the best ways we know as humans to express worship and love to God. Why WOULDN’T we devote 75% of our service to it? Just how much do you love God? Why wouldn’t you want to show it as much as you can?




“Maybe, I’m being overly simplistic, but I just cannot envision the first century church (as in Acts 20:7) having a “Worship Leader” and a group of musicians, the “Praise Team,” performing to or for the saints in Jerusalem or Ephesus, etc.”

*This is going to come as a surprise to you, but it’s NOT the first century. The “restoration movement” has got it all wrong. We are in no way under any directive to restore the first century church. If we are, we’re doing a horrible job.

 
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Ken Sublett
(no login)
69.19.14.28

The elders are NOT, as claimed a SUPERIOR MOSES for this new culture.

October 12 2006, 11:52 AM 

Roger missed out on some stuff! When God wants to reveal His Will for people He speaks face to face or mouth to mouth. When Israel fell into musical idolatry God blinded them and turned them over to worship the STARS: one of those stars was Aix or Capella the SHE goat:
    Ex.33:11 The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend. Then Moses would return to the camp, but his young aide Joshua son of Nun did not leave the tent.
After the musical idolatry God BLINDED them (2 Cor 3) and promised ANOTHER prophet and warned HIM YE SHALL HEAR. Now, you remember that all known history knows that Miriam had all of the MARKS (for we literate) of a prophetess OF HATHOR. A "prophetess" sang, danced, beat on instruments and LED the women to ESCAPE from the Song of Moses and they just chanted the WAR line.
    Nu.12:8 With him I speak face to face, clearly and not in riddles; he sees the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?"
So it was the FEMALE "musician" who is the PROTOTYPICAL usurping woman in Paul's warning. God struck her with a dose of leprosy something like the promised plagues in Revelation and she evaporates off the scene.
    NOW Korah, the son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, and Dathan and Abiram, the sons of Eliab, and On, the son of Peleth, sons of Reuben, took men: Numbers 16:1

    And they rose up before Moses, with certain of the children of Israel,

    two hundred and fifty PRINCES of the assembly,
    FAMOUS in the congregation,
    men of RENOWN: Numbers 16:2

Now, Dodger, this here looks like the JUBILEE to me! You remember that one FAMOUS and RENOWN leader pronounced the WORD sifted of all truth except the KORE gospel of seven facts ABOUT Jesus. He and the PRINCES or PRINCESSES rose up against JESUS and CLAIM that they are to WORK OUT THEIR OWN SALVATION which they TWIST to mean "work out a NEW set of doctrines for the COMMUNE from which "individuals have no right to read, interpret or speak the word OUTSIDE of the COMMUNE reading" which means the new APOSTLE'S misreading.

Now, you remember that the JUBILEE was to RE-distribute the lands, to BLOW LOUD WIND INSTRUMENTS and "Atone for the sins" of the OLDEN church of Christ. They CLAIM in print to have VISIONS and hear AUDIBLE VOICES.
    And they GATHERED themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said unto them, Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the Lord is among them: wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of the Lord? Numbers 16:3

    And when Moses heard it, he fell upon his face: Numbers 16:4

This is a long story but Donnie is not one of the famous THOUGHT LEADERS who have risen up against Christ and HIS words. Moses later warned:
    For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers (hissers) of times, and unto diviners (singers of magical songs): but as for thee, the Lord thy God hath not suffered thee so to do. Deut 18:14

    6049
    1. (Piel) to make appear, produce, bring (clouds)
    2. (Poel) to practise soothsaying, conjure
    1. to observe times, practice soothsaying or spiritism or magic or augury or witchcraft
    2. soothsayer, enchanter, sorceress, diviner, fortuneteller, barbarian, Meonenim (participle)

This means to use RESPONSIVE SINGING to OPPRESSS.

Now, you will remember that John said that the singers, musicians and all ritual STAFF were UNDER (hee haw) the Mother Harlot. John said that they were SORCERERS deceiving the world--AND GETTING PAID TOO. Now, the next MOUT TO MOUTH "Moses" is Lord Jesus Christ and YOU are doing the CORE or KORAH act when you join the Jubilators or "horn blowers."
    I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. Deut 18:18

    And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.Deut 18:19

    But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. Deut 18:20

Jude warned of the FLAMES when he referred to The Book of Enoch which defines the MUSICIANS as being led by SATAN to deceive the world with music: God will come with a FLAMING FIRE and TOPHETH is specificially prepared for the Babylon Whore and all she can seduce with SORCERY meaning MUSIC:
    Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. Jude 3

    For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ORDAINED to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into LASCIVIOUSNESS, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. Jude 4

So, Rodger, how does it FEEL to know that they are part of the CROOKED generation of vipers John would not baptize, Jesus called SONS of the Devil and SHUT OFF the flow of information using PARABLES or SINGY-SONGS. The crooked generation were SKOLION singers: from the holy tavern as New Wineskinners who tried to get Jesus to bow, sing and dance when they piped.

How does it feel since you are Isaiah 30 literate to know that HELL was prepared SPECIFICIALLY for Lucifer "the singing and harp-playing prostitute" who is called ZOE? All of the Bible treats you as a Cainite or Kenite and literally a SEPARATE SPECIES. l believe TRULY that the world was inhabited by the NACHASH (musical enchanter in the garden) and that their DNA survives.
    I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. Jude 5

    And the angels (messengers) which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Jude 1:6

After describing these "angels of death" in detail including their connection with Sodom, Jude makes the Core connection:
    Woe unto them for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward [PAY], and perished in the gainsaying of Core. Jude 11

    Cain is: Qayin (h7013) kah'-yin; from 6969 in the orig. sense of fixity; a lance (as striking fast): - spear.

    Quwn (h6969) koon; a prim. root; to strike a musical note, i. e. chant or wail (at a funeral): - lament, mourning woman.

I told you that Jesus cast these Musical Minstrels out LIKE DUNG.
    Jude 12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead,plucked up by the roots;

    Jude 13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

    Jude 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

    Jude 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

    Jude 16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having mens PERSONS in admiration because of ADVANTATE.

    Jude 17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

    Jude 18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly LUST.

Here are the mockers or sporters
    Empaigma A. jest, mocking, delusion, LXX Is.66.4; magikês empaigmata technês [Magica and Musica have about the same meaning]

    Techn-ê II. an art, craft, to learn a thing professionally, having made a trade of it, the Art of Rhetoric, tricks of Rhetoric,

    Empaizo II. SPORT in or on, hôs nebros chloerais e. leimakos hêdonais E.Ba. 866 (lyr.); tois choroisin e. to sport in the dance, Ar.Th.975; tôi gumnasiôi Luc.Lex.5 .

When they sing, clap and gyrate around they are SPORTING with you: that is why they USE professionals.

So, Roger, there are only TWO face to face speakers FOR God: the Last one WAS God in the flesh, the Holy Spirit or the Mind of Christ. Now, I remember being attacked by people who claim that the elders are CELESTIAL BEINGS. Now, you equate the false TEACHINGS of elders as a FACE TO FACE revelation which SUPERCEDES all of the Bible and all known history which associates MUSICAL religion to pagan WOMEN. We are well informed that when males fell into it they had to be DRUNK or PERVERTS.

A CORRUPTER of the word is an ADULTERER who "sells learning at RETAIL." That is the MARK Music is also the other MARK of the BEAST: In the Gnostic revival ZOE is called the BEAST and "female instructing principle." MUSIC was what silenced the Covenant of Grace delivered by Moses. MUSIC was the prophecies MOCKING Of Jesus Christ. Music is the MARK of the prostitute religion using SORCERERS. And Rodger has SOME motive for trying to destroy those who WARN. Is Roger on the DOLE? That is a MARK.

 
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Roger Bradley
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64.185.31.101

Here we go again...

October 12 2006, 11:35 PM 


So you start out with a lie-
"Roger missed out on some stuff! When God wants to reveal His Will for people He speaks face to face or mouth to mouth."

Guess that negates the Bible. Why have we wasted our time following it all these years?
All we had to do was ask ken Sublett. He had the answers all along.

I didn't have time to read, much less respond to the rest of your typically way-too-long post, but according to your track record, I'm sure it was full of true, well-thought-out, sane statements.

 
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Donnie Cruz
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72.154.211.220

Roger, your arguments are self-revealing … really!

October 13 2006, 4:30 AM 

Consider this post as “Part 1”—to be continued as time permits. Your response to what the scriptures teach about the elders is indicative of your ignorance of their role and responsibility. And that should explain why you couldn’t find my answer to your question—“… where in scripture do you get the authorization to rebel against the elders of the church?”

You are “amazed.” I know. And that same question [an accusation, in fact; also a thrill on your part] still lingers within your very being. But let me answer your question in a different manner. Here it is—somehow I really question the validity of the expression “to rebel against the elders of the church.” If you can show me a scriptural reference to that expression, I will certainly thank you.

Well, I really just wanted to explain to you in this post where you said, “I don’t understand what this paragraph means. It’s a bunch of garbled, unrelated sentence fragments. Could you please re-state the point of it?”

Here’s what I said earlier:

    Oh, calling names … discrediting their ministry … judging them … telling lies about them … my clear ignorance of a full-time ministry and the concept of salary—you say?

    Well, let me briefly say the following: (1) “Worship Leader”—do a Google search on it; (2) spreading the gospel of Christ to the lost is THE ministry; (3) no, not I, but God is the righteous Judge; (4) the “worship” guide, the Marcher, the Acappella newsletter, hopefully, do not lie; (5) I would not classify the Worship Leader’s arm-wagging task a few hours a week as a full-time ministry; (6) it’s worth repeating … that the musical staff’s salary is not warranted by the Holy Scripture and is a total waste of the saints’ contribution intended to help the needy—not company owners.”

OK, I’ll re-state or explain my point to you. This is easy—as I will simply break it down for you in this format: Roger’s accusation and Donnie’s response to each:

  • [Roger]: (1) Calling them names …
    [Donnie]: (1) “Worship Leader”—do a Google search on it;

  • [Roger]: (2) … discrediting their ministry …
    [Donnie]: (2) … spreading the gospel of Christ to the lost is THE ministry;

  • [Roger]: … (3) judging them …
    [Donnie]: … (3) no, not I, but God is the righteous Judge;

  • [Roger]: … (4) and telling lies about them …
    [Donnie]: … (4) the “worship” guide, the Marcher, the Acappella newsletter, hopefully, do not lie;

  • [Roger]: … (5) as well as putting on display your clear ignorance of a full-time ministry …
    [Donnie]: … (5) I would not classify the Worship Leader’s arm-wagging task a few hours a week as a full-time ministry;

  • [Roger]: … (6) and the concept of salary
    [Donnie]: … (6) it’s worth repeating … that the musical staff’s salary is not warranted by the Holy Scripture and is a total waste of the saints’ contribution intended to help the needy—not company owners.

You probably should not have left the church—which explains your derision of the “Restoration Movement.”

Till next time, Roger.

Donnie

 
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Roger Bradley
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Re: Roger, your arguments are self-revealing … really!

October 14 2006, 1:52 AM 

“And that should explain why you couldn’t find my answer to your question—“… where in scripture do you get the authorization to rebel against the elders of the church?”

No, the reason I can’t find your answer, is because IT’S NOT IN THERE! You don’t have authorization to rebel against your elders.


“—somehow I really question the validity of the expression “to rebel against the elders of the church.” If you can show me a scriptural reference to that expression, I will certainly thank you.”
1 Timothy 5:17
The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.
Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.
You can thank me now, or later.

[Donnie]: (1) “Worship Leader”—do a Google search on it;
[Roger]: (1) Since when is Google any kind of authority on anything? You call Keith Lancaster, and other worship leaders and elders insulting and disrespectful names on this website all the time.


[Donnie]: (2) … spreading the gospel of Christ to the lost is THE ministry;
[Roger]: (2) … then why don’t you? You attempt to discredit his ministry when you call him “The Worship Leader” with quotation marks, as if it’s not a real title. Not to mention the constant insults.


[Donnie]: … (3) no, not I, but God is the righteous Judge;
[Roger]: … (3) you seem convinced that their activities and decisions have condemned them to Hell, without bothering to allow God to make that decision. It’s called JUDGING. Google it.


[Donnie]: … (4) the “worship” guide, the Marcher, the Acappella newsletter, hopefully, do not lie;
[Roger]: … (4) no, but you do.

[Donnie]: … (5) I would not classify the Worship Leader’s arm-wagging task a few hours a week as a full-time ministry;
[Roger]: … (5) thus the display of your ignorance


[Donnie]: … (6) it’s worth repeating … that the musical staff’s salary is not warranted by the Holy Scripture and is a total waste of the saints’ contribution intended to help the needy—not company owners.
[Roger]: … (6) It actually IS warranted by the Holy Scripture, as much as many of the other not-mentioned specifics that you think are O.K. If your OPINION is that it is a waste of money, guess what? TOO BAD. You’re not an elder, thus you must live with it. If they are wrong, they will answer to God. It’s not your place to publicly post criticism of them on a website or anywhere else. To do so is rebellion, which is wrong. See above.


“You probably should not have left the church—which explains your derision of the “Restoration Movement.”

My derision of the Restoration Movement, comes from the fact that in over 100 years of effort, they are nowhere near looking anything like the first century church. They’re not even trying. It’s a facade. There is no true restoration movement, nor should there be. This isn’t the first century.


Till next time, Donnie.

Roger

 
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Donnie Cruz
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68.19.194.104

Roger, tell it like it is [about yourself] … don’t be afraid

November 3 2006, 11:28 PM 

Roger,

I’m glad that you finally quoted scriptures.

    I Timothy 5:17—“Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine

    Hebrews 13:17—“Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.”

The underscored expressions should help you understand your own issue that you created yourself. I have/had NOTHING TO DO with the church upheaval that occurred in 2001—why so many brethren were alienated and left … why an announcement had to be made to the congregation: “Get over it; we must move on.” I had not even heard of this website until 2002.

Roger, you’re the one who rebelled against your elders to the point that YOU LEFT the church. [BTW, I know that part about you. So, you can’t hide the truth from the readers.] I wouldn’t be surprised if you even rebelled against your parents, your own family who, I should say, may still be members of the same church that I’m a member of.

Speaking of lies you accuse me of, you failed miserably in proving so.

But I’ll continue to prove or show evidences of events and activities from actual sources. Here’s something from a business-oriented, in-the-name-of-religion organization called “The Acappella Company” (acappella.org—November newsletter):

  • http://www.queenslandertours.com/qtt/keithcaribbean.htm (“Come cruising with Durant and Keith Lancaster July 30th-Aug. 4th [2007]. … Join Keith Lancaster on ‘Congregational Singers of the Caribbean’ by QUEENSLANDER TOURS. 5 Night Cruise | Tour Class: Comfortable | Tour Type: Hosted Luxury”)

  • “Keith Lancaster is scheduled to do a ‘hymns’ seminar with Dr. Jerry Rushford from Pepperdine at the Mid Atlantic Fellowship. The theme this year is ‘Hymns That Have Shaped Our Faith.’ [D.C.: Wow! Madison’s “contemporary” assembly needs this seminar very badly—and needs to stay away from the rah-rah-rah musical for a while.]

  • On sale … maybe: “Christmas Time Is Near—It’s hard to believe that Christmas is less than eight weeks away. Now is the time to start thinking about what Acappella product will help you get ready for the season….”

  • 12/3/2006: Lake Jackson, TX
    Venue: Convention Center | First Baptist—Brazoria
    Event Info: Christmas Dinner Concert Event

  • 12/8/2006: Fort Worth, TX
    Venue: McKinney Memorial Bible Church
    Event Info: McKinney Memorial Bible Church Christmas Event

  • 1/29—2/1/2007: Antigua, Guatemala
    Venue: Compassion | International Compassion
    Event Info: Compassion

  • 3/18/2007: Gulf Shores, AL
    Venue: Gulf Shores United Methodist
    Event Info: Concert

I think I have heard this before—A few Sundays ago, preacher Phil Barnes related that when asked if the [Madison] congregation had a choir (Donnie personally thinks that the reference was to the “Praise Team” … the newly discovered “Church of Christ Choir”), he responded that “Yes, we do have a ‘choir’ that is almost a 2,000-voice strong.”

I agree that with the microphones’ volume level measured in16 “jezebels” … that Keith’s “Praise Team” would sound like 2000 voices. Add the loud rhythmic clapping to that.

Donnie

 
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Donnie Cruz
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65.1.223.158

“The Idolatry of Musical Talent at the ‘Worship’ Center”

December 22 2006, 7:08 PM 

I have recently received an e-mail a portion of which stated:

    “With approval from the elders at this [my former] congregation, they now have worship leaders equipped with their mics. The more I read the Madison thread the more I realized this church had been taken over.”

This past Sunday, I was in the contemporary assembly, with the usual expectations. It was evident that musical worship, an unknown entity in the assembly of the saints in the first century, was the pervasive atmosphere. Throughout the “worship” hour-and-a-half, reverential offering of glory and honor—the least amount of time dedicated to devotion—had to be part of the musical worship. It had to be! After all, even if it amounted to only 20 or 30 percent of the entire “let us worship the Father,” no one could fairly say that the entire period was devoid of solemnity.

I think that, with the exception of the Communion, I was in the “Assembly of God” [Charismatic] gathering or in some made-for-TV TBN program. The constant rhythmic clapping by a few peace-disturbing-distracting participants; applause after a successful rendering of a contemporary “praise” chorus by the “Worship Leader’s” elite “Praise Team”; the visible body swinging-and-swaying to the music activity by some—all these were not to not capture the attention of others present for the purpose of expressing reverence to our Father in heaven. I think I heard some unintelligible sounds emanating from the elite singers’ vocal cords/chords. Do you think they were spontaneously excited? Or, did they follow the musical instructions to make this strange howling sound [just as the sheet music may indicate in what measure to do the rhythmic “clap-clap” or “clap-clap-clap”]? I’m not sure I know exactly how to describe the strange sound/noise. It sounded like Minnie Pearl’s “How-Dee-e-e-e-e?!?” or it may have emanated from the bulls’ urges in a rodeo—or something like that! But I took it in opposition to what the Scripture says about speaking, teaching and admonishing one another—which require intelligible words—and letting the “words of Christ dwell in us richly.”

Believe me, the “Worship Leader” and some leaders of the congregation encourage these things by example. Right there in front of the congregation! It is so easy for some of them to literally “lift my hands to the Father” [watch it … these words are in the song … oh, my], but so difficult to “bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Yeah, right, just go with the flow, eh.

One obvious change of direction—and I commiserate with the “preacher” whose “role” or influence has been greatly diminished and subordinated to that of the new, unauthorized “church staff” position of “Worship Leader.” The “worship leader” is now in control. Shame … shame … shame!!! It is NO LONGER the much-anticipated feature in the gathering of the saints—the reading and study of God’s word, along with the observance of the Lord’s Supper to commemorate the Lord’s suffering and death of the cross. Even the Communion is now marred by the constant injection of misguided concepts by associating it with some evening fellowship meal [to feed the belly].

Congregational singing to the best of the members’ abilities is now replaced with the Praise Team’s excellent musical performances. Their handheld microphones that measure in high “Jezebels” prove my point that to the performers, God is more pleased with the overpowering vocalizations [both intelligible and unintelligible (“how-dee”)] from the “Worship Leader’s” elite singers.

How is the “Worship Leader” or the church leaders reacting to Richland Hills’ leaders’ decision to go “instrumental”? I know Mr. Keith Lancaster has written “a cappella” all over his face—at least that’s the thrust of his own [other] business or organization. No, instrumental music, I think, is not in the horizon at Madison—from all indications. Why should Mr. Lancaster risk his “popularity” by employing instrumental music in the assembly? That would seem to go against the “idolatry of musical talent”—voices being drowned out by the “Christian Rock” band.

Donnie

 
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Donnie Cruz
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72.150.118.140

“I Remember the Day That I Left….” [by Jared]

October 20 2006, 1:56 AM 

Here’s an important “reality” lesson to learn … from Jared in his response to an excellent article by John Waddey [posted on 06.20.06] titled:

    “PROVIDING IMMUNITY TO FADS IN WORSHIP”

Please follow the link to John’s article and Jared’s response on October 17, 2006 here:


    Source: Motivated Change Agents Challenging Elders of the Church


    I just wanted to state that I went to Madison C of C since I was born. I remember the day that I left and remembering seeing my grandmother mostly and the rest of my family cry. I know the devil caused this pain in my families lives. It hurts me to see the C of C have these problems. I just go and read the Bible to find the truth. I believe in the Bible and know that the Bible has not changed and will not change. I believe that clapping is a distraction to me and I read the Bible where it tells me "not to be a stumbling block" to others. I also read the Bible telling me that "worship is for Him", not for me. So saying "I feel good when I do ..." or "I think that the Bible says..." or that "I assume God wants it like...." are all the ways of the devil. Where the Bible is silent, so am I.

    I also believe (my opinion) that if people at Madison C of C would read and understand the Bibles teachings none of this would have ever happened. I don't go to "feel good" about me, I go to praise and worship the Lord, God Almighty who is worthy of my devotion to Him.

    I really hope and pray that all that cause the problems at Madison would change their ways back to God. I can only imagion what Ira North would tell people who caused this problem and even more scarier, what God would tell these same people.

    I, being of college age, know have been in false teaching by a campus minister and was able to tell thru God's word (the Bible) that this man was teaching me wrong. I find it more and more everyday that there are false teachers and misleadings of leaders.

    To me, this age that we live in is only getting worse or so it seems by my eyes. Not only is the goverment taking out God in lots of things, but have caused many more problems by doing this. Taking God out of schools seem to have cause: no respect for people of all ages, people not following rules, people looking for hope, joy, love, and peace in drugs and in other people, and so much more. Just to give an example, there in the state of Tennessee are people in gangs that drive with their lights off at night. Being a Christian and person wanting to help seeing cars with their lights off, makes me want to flash my lights on and off bright to tell them their lights are off. Though if I did do this, they would turn around try to run me off the road to kill me. What about sueing? People are sueing for hot coffee, name calling, and all other kinds of things. Makes you wonder how all this could happen so fast from just a couple of years before people didn't mind to pick up people needing rides, going to help people they saw in need, no locks on doors of cars, houses, or anythings to the world we live in today. I believe it's the word of God that keep people in a flow of trust in others, respect to others, kindness, joy, hope, love, and all the great things of God.

    I know I've talked about so many different things, and I hope you don't mind. I just feel (my own opinion) that people are not doing what God wants and only trying to please themselves, just like the King of England did. (made the New England Church, so that he could divorce his wife). People at Madison C of C seemed to want to do what made them "feel" closer to God, instead of reading in the Bible what God wanted and gave not only examples, but the Bible of telling us what He wanted.

    Well thanks for reading this if you did. I hope all that you read, you know that I speak not of what I think of but what God says. (when I talk about the church and the Bible) If it was my choice to pick and choose who went to heaven...I would want all people to come, but 1st off, I'm not God, 2nd it's a narrow way, and 3rd not all that say "Lord, Lord" are going to make it in. So I hope that thru this, people will read and study for themselves and not take what other people say to heart until they find it in the Bible to prove what someone said.

    In Him Always and Learning, Growing, and Loving Brother in Christ,

    Jared D.


_____________________________

 
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Donnie Cruz
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O.K., now that “Christmas celebration” at Madison is over….

December 26 2006, 5:54 PM 

Catching Glimpses of Events at Madison … from the “Worship Guide”:

______________________________

An announcement in the W.G. on November 26, 2006: “Breakfast with Santa” (Saturday, December 2, 9-11 a.m.; Tickets: $4—Adults, $2—kids 3-11). Pancake and sausage breakfast with fun and games for the kids plus an opportunity to visit with Santa and have pictures made! Gift baskets will be sold through a silent auction for Christmas gifts as well as a live auction for other great gifts. This fundraiser supports Madison’s preschool program—Creator’s Kids.

RESPONSE: There was a song “Only by Grace,” © 1990 [“suspect” Integrity’s Hosanna! Music], negates the truth that after conversion, the Christian must produce good works as the book of James states that “for as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” “Not by our human endeavor” negates the truth:

    "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. [John 6:27]

    "[26] For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; [27] And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. [28] Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, [29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." [John 5]


“In the news … ‘Talented saxophone artist Jonas Weathers and the Tea & Jam Orchestra along with a few special guests will present the sounds of Christmas at the next TEA & JAM, Saturday, December 9, from 7 to 10 p.m….’”

______________________________

In the W.G., December 10, 2006:

“God’s hand is on each moment of our lives … the ones we wish we could do over and the ones we wish could last forever…

    “God Moments”

    Saturday, December 16
    Sunday, December 17 7 p.m.


    Most people look at Nicholas and see problems. After causing a catastrophe at last year’s Christmas play, it’s understandable when some of the cast don’t want him to have a part in this year’s…

    Postcards are available at the Welcome Center for you to use to invite fmily, friends, neighbors or coworkers to our CHRISTMAS DRAMA—‘GOD MOMENTS.’ The drama will be December 16 and 17 at 7 p.m. Admission is free. [Wow!]”

RESPONSE: The “Worship Leader’s Praise Team” was loud—as usual. I did check this out—“Ancient of Days” as one would assume to be a solemn “hymn.” No, it is not! Again, © 1992, from [“suspected Charismatic”] Integrity’s Hosanna! Music/Integrity’s Praise Music. The “clap-clap-clap” rhythm/beat is in the sheet music. The Praise Team performed the clapping to perfection while, to the CONTRARY, expressions were in the song such as: “Ev’ry KNEE SHALL BOW at Your throne.” Can someone explain this scenario?

“Joy to the World” was sung in both the “traditional” assembly and the “contemporary worship service.” Getting a little bit in the mood for “Christmas,” eh? Nick Boone would lead this song anytime during the year in the past. Now, no, Keith Lancaster leads this only during “Christmas.” See the difference? Think!

______________________________

In the W.G., December 17, 2006:

A similar announcement regarding the Christmas Drama, “God Moments.”

    The final performance is TONIGHT!

    “There will not be a worship service in Bixler Chapel tonight.”

RESPONSE: The “Christmas Drama” taking precedence over the Sunday night’s “worship service.” How long will it be before the Madison leadership allow or make the Sunday assembly an INTERACTIVE “Happy Birthday to Jesus” Christmas Drama Celebration? Wonder why this is somewhat lagging behind the INTERACTIVE EASTER DRAMA WORSHIP in the spring? By the way, while the MUSICAL WORSHIP was charismatic most of the way, the sermon was titled, “The Message of Christmas.”

______________________________

In the W.G., December 24, 2006:

Bob Benson is quoted: “The light shined in the darkness and it still shines, and shines, and shines. And when our lights flicker and die—when those with whom we have long celebrated are gone—when we can no longer share needs or exchange gifts, or sing songs—it will still be Christmas because Jesus is Born, Jesus is Born!”

[To be fair …] Isaiah 9:6 is also quoted: “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Might God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” (N.I.V.)

RESPONSE: “Joy to the Word” … “O Come All Ye Faithful” … “Silent Night” … “Beautiful Star of Bethlehem” during the “Christmas Eve.” Keith did some injustice to “contemporary Christian POP/ROCK artists” by not singing their Christmas his songs. Maybe … next time when the he finds the leaders and the audience to be “more” accepting. Keith also had the audience in control at Christmas because there was no clapping and rowdy behavior while making a “JOYFUL NOISE” unto the Lord … whereas or while he is also in control as he leads or cues the audience to be clappy-clappy-clappy and rowdy when “worshipping” the Father the rest of the year.

______________________________

More information can be found in the Madison Marcher at the new and improved website:

http://www.madisoncofc.org/marcher.pdf

______________________________

Donnie

 
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Servant
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69.59.78.95

Re: O.K., now that “Christmas celebration” at Madison is over….

December 26 2006, 6:31 PM 

Donnie:
Is this the best thing this Site is for???
For critical analysis of the elers/praise team/drama team/those you dislike at Madison?

As I asked you previously at Faithsite.com I ask you again....
If you don't like it at Madison, then why do you attend there?
Start your own church, or go to one where you prefer their worship style!!!
Getting to heaven isn't going to happen by showing the world that you dislike or distrust your brother in Christ!

 
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Donnie Cruz
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74.241.186.221

This site WARNS others of the “grievous wolves in sheep’s clothing.”

December 30 2006, 4:23 PM 

Servant __________:

As a prospective elder of “___________ church of Christ” [if you’re not already one], I am sure you are familiar with these passages:

    “ [27] For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. [28] Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. [29] For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. [30] Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.” [Acts 20, KJV]

    “[13] Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: [14] Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. [15] Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.” [Matt. 7, KJV]

Wake up! Rick Warren’s Community Church Movement, with the help of change agents operating in the brotherhood, has already intruded the church and acquired some of the congregations. This is NOT about preferences. The culture-driven methodology used is indeed delusive—that’s why it appears that the point of the argument is about “worship style”; thus, your favorite expression: “preferences.” No … no … no! It is about “their” redefinition of what the “gathering of the saints” is supposed to encompass. [BTW, this has been discussed in numerous threads—in case you’re interested.]

In other words, it is about changing God’s scheme of redemption as revealed in the Holy Scripture to some human-contrived plan … as well as changing other biblical teachings to those derived from denominational creeds.

Servant, I was looking for your rebuttal in detail against my specific statements. I didn’t see any explanation in your post except to remark concerning “getting to heaven” and distrusting “your brother in Christ.” Oh, well, I think they’re good subject matters for discussion at some other time.

I’ve been asked these [your] same questions numerous times before. It’s time consuming to keep repeating myself, but I must say that I, along with hundreds of alienated brethren that decided to leave and seek fellowship somewhere else, was here before the intrusion and the havoc as a result. Moreover, there are still hundreds of members who feel the same way as I do, and they have stayed.

By the same token, you believe and teach that it is OK to let the inanimate, lifeless musical instruments participate in the assembly of the saints. You very well know that more than 99% of the congregations of the church (Christ’s) you still claim to be a member of do not allow such lifeless objects to participate in the gathering. So, a similar question is posed—why interfere and confuse and sow discord among your brethren by teaching such man-contrived dogma—why not simply join the Christian Church fellowship that practices what you teach?

Donnie

 
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Servant
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69.59.78.95

Re: This site WARNS others of the “grievous wolves in sheep’s clothing.”

December 31 2006, 1:17 AM 

Donnie:
You said..."Servant, I was looking for your rebuttal in detail against my specific statements. I didn’t see any explanation in your post except to remark concerning “getting to heaven” and distrusting “your brother in Christ.” Oh, well, I think they’re good subject matters for discussion at some other time."

Would that be like when I gave rebuttal about your "proof", or lack thereof of showing historical evidence that instrumental music was not used with the first century church?

You show historians who did not live during the time of the first century church. I refutted one of your main historians, whom you say was quotted out of context when I showed proof that the said there was "no blame" for anyone if they wanted to used instruments of music.
Most of the historians that you quoted mentioned about the 'lifeless' instruments' out of preferrrence. That has nothing to do with fact showing that the first century church did/did not use instrumental music.
NO EVIDENCE Donnie. Even the historian Clemente, that you used to show 'proof', showed disdain for your 'proof.'
You use statements such as 'the silence of God is not permissive', and 'where the Bible speaks speak, and where the Bible is silent remain silent.
So I ask you about the great commission and how it tells us to 'go' but is SILENT on HOW to go. But then that is sooooooooo different from when the NT tells us to sing, and not HOW to sing.
Donnie, will those like you always claim ignorance to why the church of Christ is growing slower than it ever has???
Its because of WHAT YOU LIKE, but hexing and vexing what you don't like.
You use your sacred CENI for the items in the NT for which you prefer, but when it is used against you (the great commission and silence on how to go) then you say it is sin.
The only sin here is when Christians take it upon themselves to try to rewrite the Words of God and add sin to the Word where there was none in the first place. I used the word 'Christians' Donnie because I believe that you are a Christian, just a misguided one. Perhaps you no longer call me one, but I still believe that you and Bill and even Ken are my Christian brothers who are in SERIOUS error and need to ask God for forgiveness for your sins. I have already forgiven you. If it is a strong rhetoric that I have to keep up with you men, then so be it. YOU ARE IN ERROR, and you need to deal with it.


 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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66.19.66.114

Re: This site WARNS others of the “grievous wolves in sheep’s clothing.”

December 31 2006, 10:24 PM 

Well, our friend Servant is still denying all the evidence from numerous church historians and music scholars, who stated that the early Christians did NOT use instrumental music in their worship. He implies that no one can make that claim unless they had actually lived during that period of time. If that's the case, then all the universities should do away with their departments of history, since no one today can write about anything that happened prior to their lifetime. According to Servant's logic, "History" would only encompass the events that took place within the lifetime of the present generation. That, my friends, is most comical.

And why does Servant still cling tenaciously to one quote made by Clement of Alexandria, who supposedly said he would not blame the early Christians if they had used IM in worship. That was merely the opinion of a mortal man, not the words of Christ or the apostles; Clement in no way implied that the early Christians actually used IM in their worship. We just have too much historical evidence to the contrary, despite the fact that Servant has chosen to deny all that evidence, because it doesn’t suit his preferences. But perhaps Servant conveniently overlooked these quotes from Clement:

“"Leave the pipe to the shepherd, the flute to the men who are in fear of gods and intent on their idol worshipping. Such musical instruments must be excluded from our wingless feasts, for they are more suited for beasts and for the class of men that is least capable of reason than for men. The Spirit, to purify the divine liturgy from any such unrestrained revelry chants: ‘Praise Him with sound of trumpet,’ for, in fact, at the sound of the trumpet the dead will rise again; ‘praise Him with harp,’ for the tongue is a harp of the Lord; ‘and with the lute. praise Him,’ understanding the mouth as a lute moved by the Spirit as the lute is by the plectrum; ‘praise Him with timbal and choir,’ that is, the Church awaiting the resurrection of the body in the flesh which is its echo; ‘praise Him with strings and organ,’ calling our bodies an organ and its sinews strings, for from them the body derives its Coordinated movement, and when touched by the Spirit, gives forth human sounds; ‘praise Him on high-sounding cymbals,’ which mean the tongue of the mouth which with the movement of the lips, produces words. Then to all mankind He calls out, ‘Let every spirit praise the Lord,’ because He rules over every spirit He has made. In reality, man is an instrument arc for peace, but these other things, if anyone concerns himself overmuch with them, become instruments of conflict, for inflame the passions. The Etruscans, for example, use the trumpet for war; the Arcadians, the horn; the Sicels, the flute; the Cretans, the lyre; the Lacedemonians, the pipe; the Thracians, the bugle; the Egyptians, the drum; and the Arabs, the cymbal. But as for us, we make use of one instrument alone: only the Word of peace by whom we a homage to God, no longer with ancient harp or trumpet or drum or flute which those trained for war employ” (Clement of Alexandria, 190AD The instructor, Fathers of the church, p. 130).

Notice above that Clement takes phrases from the Psalms about using instruments and makes metaphorical comparisons to man's natural instruments, the tongue, the lips, the voice, all to sing praises to God. Clement concluded that instruments were no longer used to praise God.

“He who sprang from David and yet was before him, the Word of God, scorned those lifeless instruments of lyre and cithara. By the power of the Holy Spirit He arranged in harmonious order this great world, yes, and the little world of man too, body and soul together; and on this many-voiced instruments of the universe He makes music to God, and sings to the human instrument. ‘For thou art my harp and my pipe and my temple.’” (Clement of Alexandria, 185AD, Readings p. 62)

More metaphors from Clement about scorning lifeless instruments.





 
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What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

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This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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