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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)

Re: This site WARNS others of the “grievous wolves in sheep’s clothing.”

January 1 2007, 10:18 AM 

Servant said: "Donnie, will those like you always claim ignorance to why the church of Christ is growing slower than it ever has???"

If the church of Christ is "growing slower" at all, it's because people are slowly turning away from the true faith and jumping on the wagons of denominationalism with its penchant for promoting man-contrived doctrines to suit the carnally-minded, entertainment-oriented masses. But this should be no surprise to the discerning, for Christ through the apostle Paul centuries ago predicted that such behavior would eventually come to pass:

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables" (II Tim. 4:3-4 KJV).

Servant is reminded that we are no longer under the Old Covenant or the Law of Moses, which utilized instruments of music in worship. We are now under the New Covenant or the New Testament of Christ, which no longer authorizes instruments of music in worship. The NT specifically authorizes only vocal music or singing and making melody in the heart (Eph. 5:19; Col. 3:16 KJV).

Servant greatly emphasized "sin." Servant is also reminded that it is indeed a grievous sin to add anything more to NT Scripture or to go beyond what is written in NT scripture (I Cor. 4:6 KJV) when the NT has already laid down specific guidelines pertaining to worship and doctrine. Since singing and making melody in the heart are a part of worship and since only singing/making melody in the heart are authorized therein, to go beyond NT Scripture by adding musical instruments is indeed sinful. The melody is made in the heart, not with mechanical instruments. Thus God has not only commanded us to sing, He has also commanded us "how" to accompany our singing: by making melody in the heart.

So it's not a matter of preference and never will be a matter of preference; it's a matter of obedience to NT Scripture.

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Evelyn Julian Dallas
(no login)

Response to division at Madison

January 2 2007, 1:32 PM 

I am sick ay heart about what happened at Madison. I graduated from Lipscomb in 1959--Brother North's son Tim married my cousin. I remember when Nick Boone led singing there and now, I cannot believe what happened and what is happening around the country.

My fear is that many congregations are not aware of this movement, and it will happen and be too late. How do we make them aware? Some of my friends I talk to just sort of dismiss what I say as "demented ramblings."

The elders at Nashville Road are aware at this point. My father, P. J. Julian, was an elder there for 40 years and is now deceased (2000). He, at one time, went into the pulpit and escorted the visiting preacher out the door.

Another time, he and the minister, Brother Harris, asked a couple not to return because the man was beginning some of the "code" questions and comments in the men's BIBLE class.
Another time, he stopped a slide show by a Philipine visitor who stated "In the Philipines, we don't call it the Church of Christ but the "Way." At that point, the slide show stopped.

A child of Jackson County hills, my father was not a formally "schooled" person; however, he did know the BIBLE, and I miss him so very much.

What do I, as one person, do to help this problem?


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(Login vinceyoung)

Re: Response to division at Madison

January 2 2007, 11:51 PM 


With all due respect to you... it seems that you are missing the point. Christ commanded us to love one another and to serve others and their needs before our own... and that was his basic message!

He stayed above the fray and rebuked the Pharisies when they tried to question him or his followers on minor technicalities of the Law. That is basically (in my opinion) what has happened in the more conservative Churches of Christ... there is a lot of nit-picking going on and we have gotten to the point to where we scrutinize every little thing that happens so much that we miss the point of what Christ really wants from us!!

Traditional Churches of Christ are quickly dying and by the time our kids grow old, they may be close to non-existant. I truly believe that the main reason for this is that we have failed to show people on the outside of the church that we grasp the basic message of Jesus Christ and that our main focus is on being Jesus Christ to a lost world... instead we have judged and condemned others that don't have all the same beliefs and traditions that we do. The rest of the world sees us as a bunch of closed-minded and legalistic hypocrites that would rather judge everyone and prove that we are right and that everyone else is wrong, as opposed to embracing them with love and acceptance in spite of their differences from us!

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Donnie Cruz
(no login)

Not taking division in the church seriously

January 3 2007, 1:56 AM 


What happened to “the rookie” this last game?

It appears that you don’t take problems and issues that confront and divide certain congregations that seriously. I wish I could help you understand that this website’s objective is to inform and warn others of the pitfalls and dangers that a church might expect when it is intruded upon and division ensues, and then acquisition is imminent.

Of course, we know that Christians are commanded to love and to serve. That’s common knowledge in Christendom, isn’t it? So, you are making that an issue here when it really is not an issue. In case you didn’t know it, change agents in the brotherhood use the same kind of defense mechanism—love one another—when, in fact, the issue has to do for the most part with doctrinal differences. If we don’t deal with these differences, why even bother to be loyal to the church? Why not just join any religious group of one’s choice?

Hey, speak to the Seventh Day Adventists and others about the law of Moses and the technicalities of the law—not to churches of Christ. Why? That subject matter is irrelevant as far as the church abiding in the doctrine of Christ and His apostles is concerned. Again, another ploy by change agents to accuse members of the church who rely on apostolic teachings—that is not by any means being Pharisaical or legalistic!

No, Mr. Young, the church is not dying. You’re only wishing, perhaps? You may need to do more research as to why churches of Christ were the fastest growing religious faith in the 50’s and 60’s—and that was when the unadulterated gospel of Christ was the central message … you know, just prior to the time when the now-change-agents began to experience the “new enlightenment” and suddenly outsmarting the Holy Scripture?

BTW, following the teachings of Christ and the apostles as revealed in the New Testament is not the same as following “human traditions.” Following His teachings is neither condemning others nor being closed-minded.


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Donnie Cruz
(no login)

Re: Response to division at Madison

January 3 2007, 3:01 AM 


Thanks for writing.

I’m reminded of the message I posted above from Jared D.—it is titled “I Remember the Day That I Left….” [by Jared] (October 20 2006, 1:56 AM). Actually, I extracted his letter from another thread—“Motivated Change Agents Challenging Elders of the Church.” In that thread, Jared’s letter was a very appropriate response to John Waddey’s article, “PROVIDING IMMUNITY TO FADS IN WORSHIP

Indeed, the combined idea of: (1) providing a so-called “holy” entertainment [fads] at the postmodern “worship center” and (b) the elders approving it … yields to alienation among the brethren and chaos—among so many other things.

No, you are not the only one sickened by this scenario as I’m sure that there are hundreds of others who feel the same way—disheartened, sad, and despondent. Perhaps, we could only ask—if the elders had known that welcoming Rick Warren’s [Community Church] pattern for the New Testament church would effect the church havoc that occurred a few years ago, would they have implemented Warren’s methodology for “church growth” anyway?

The best we can do, I believe, is pray continually for the unity of His body and for the church elders to be given the wisdom in their decision-making processes and the proper understanding that God’s directives for the church are not to be tampered with … that they consult God and His truth for guidance and answers—not rely on their own understanding.

Also, there are excellent threads on this forum that contain messages and articles written by John Waddey, editor of Christianity-Then-and-Now. One thread that comes to mind is—A NEW BIG PICTURE: “THE CHANGE AGENTS ARE COMING! THE CHANGE AGENTS ARE COMING!”

Not the least, let other members of the church be concerned members also. Share ConcernedMembers with your brothers and sisters in Christ.

Again, thanks!


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(no login)

I feel for you

January 23 2007, 3:10 PM 

I am sorry for you, man. I know that helpless feeling. It's like when you lean too far back in a chair. You know you're going to fall, and it happens so slowly, but ultimately, there's nothing you can do about it.

You told Vince Young (didn't know he was a C of C'er): "I wish I could help you understand that this website’s objective is to inform and warn others of the pitfalls and dangers that a church might expect when it is intruded upon and division ensues, and then acquisition is imminent."
You are FINALLY right about one thing. It is imminent. I asked this before, and never got an answer, so I'll try again.

This websites purpose is to warn people about the mythical "change agents", blah... blah... blah... so they can DO what? What are they supposed to do with your warning? don, they have three options:
1.) Love God and Love others. This means not only accepting, but embracing new ways to communicate the message of Jesus Christ
2.) They could leave their congregation, and find another that suits THEM (it is always about ME ME ME)
3.) They can, as you have so effectively modeled for us, stay at their congregation, living in sin by rebelling against the elders of that church.

If people don't like change, they can express that. If they are in a majority, and have weak leadership, that church will stay the same.
If they don't, they can leave. What's happening more and more, is people threatening to leave, thinking leadership will cower to their ego-fed threats. ("After all, what WOULD this church do without ME?"). But they are finding it falling on deaf ears. Leaving is the only thing they can DO about it. Their dwindling numbers can keep meeting together, and not changing.

So keep your "warnings" coming. They have been very effective slowing down the change, as evidenced by the numerous posts on this site detailing how the "change movement" is flourishing.


Here's the portion (my original response to Vince) that is being removed -- not to be confused as part of Amazed's post above:


    It appears that you don’t take problems and issues that confront and divide certain congregations that seriously. I wish I could help you understand that this website’s objective is to inform and warn others of the pitfalls and dangers that a church might expect when it is intruded upon and division ensues, and then acquisition is imminent.

    Of course, we know that Christians . . .



This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address on Jan 23, 2007 9:40 PM

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Thanks for the “feeling”

January 23 2007, 9:30 PM 


Here’s to explain that the bottom part of your post has been removed. That part was actually my response to Vince. I think that you were using it for reference only while you were creating your post and that you had intended to remove it after completing your post.

Actually, I’m not here to contemplate Vince’s membership. I don’t know that he is or that he isn’t a member of the church that you have left. I’d give him the benefit. But in your case and based on your messages, I think that you have left the church; but feel free to correct me if I have misstated that.

I think you keep recycling your same arguments and opposition to the church that you criticize, despise, deride and left.


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(no login)

Re: Thanks for the “feeling”

January 24 2007, 10:38 AM 

OOPS! Yeah, I cut/pasted your post to reference, and forgot to delete it before I sent it in.

I've told you many times that I have been freed from C of C legalism for about 5 years now. I do not attend a C of C anymore. Alot of the reason is because of what I am experiencing here. They spit out "doctrine" as fact, but when you ask them for an explanation, it's so shallow, that they have none. Instead of admitting that, they get mad and call names, etc...

It's largely a case of idol worship. Instead of doing what God says, and treating people the way He commands, it is far more important not to disappoint grandparents, parents, siblings, ministers, or friends. They worship man's opinion more than God, and as He says, "Worship ME only." They live in ignorance rather than being brave/smart enough to expect answers to legitimate questions.

By the way, are you the pot or the kettle here? Recycling answers???? You write the same thing over and over and over. You don't even recycle your answers, you just have one, and it's starting to stink. I think it's rotten. You might want to get a new one.

Seriously though, I'd appreciate a sincere effort from you to answer this. According to you, this site exists to "warn" people. O.K. They got your warning. Now, what are they supposed to DO about it????

Don't come with all your "stand strong in the truth" and "defend the faith" cliches. Give us something practical. Not an ideal, but an action. What can people DO besides leave a church????

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(no login)

Re: Thanks for the “feeling”

January 24 2007, 3:57 PM 

Please feel free to edit my post also....
Donnie, if Amazing has left the church of Christ, then maybe you should follow likewise example.
I builid up the church of Christ while you slam it!
Why do you continue to stay at Madison when you are content with negatively condeming the worship service, the elders, the praise team, the praise team leaders, the extracurricular activites, etc (I could name more Donnie).
Do you realize that God will NOT allow you to coninue on this road of destruction. He will have His Way...and He will have His Way with you.
God is proud of what Jesus did with the Kingdom, even if you are not. He will ultimately protect it from individuals such as you.
If you believe nothing else Donnie, BELIEVE that!!!

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Donnie Cruz
(no login)

“I do not attend a C of C anymore.”

January 27 2007, 6:25 PM 


Did you mean to say, “I am no longer a member of the church of Jesus Christ”? You see, even in secular terms, no one says—“I do not attend an American Red Cross.” But we get your point. If you are no longer a member of the church you left, you haven’t told us how and where you transferred your membership to. It would seem that naturally, if something else is better than something, one would be proud of mentioning the “something else.” So, why are you ashamed to tell us what is better than the one you left?

If your new church [the one you found that is better] spits out the right “doctrine” and that you and your fellow members DO NOT worship “man’s opinion,” again, would you tell us what is this new church? Would you tell us your comparative analysis of the differences in beliefs and teachings? As well as which church offers a “shallow” explanation? You know, there is no credence in your own opinion until you spit out real proofs and evidences to support your acquired or borrowed doctrine.

I’m really not expecting you to accept my only “ONE” and “stinking” answer. You are far gone and beyond “the river of no return.”

Speaking of this site “warning” other congregations, especially un-infiltrated ones as yet, that all depends on the wisdom of the leadership of which I have no control. By the same token, what do you expect when you proudly say you have left the church [without specifying whereto]? Well, that would depend on how grounded in the truth the individual is.

You’ve expressed yourself freely here. That is good. That is fair. That is one good way that the reader can gauge the veracity of your acquired teachings. After all, the church, as well as the Scripture, cannot be blamed [and no one should] by the individual who chooses to deride and speak against it and rejoice over his actions.


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Donnie Cruz
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“You should … likewise [leave the church]”

January 27 2007, 6:47 PM 


For one thing, there is a difference, i.e., Roger has left the church of Jesus Christ for another … period. It’s not the same as choosing or preferring another congregation in the brotherhood. Besides, the choice to leave Madison or not is really not yours to decide for me, or even suggest it.

I honestly think that you, as a prospective elder—if you aren’t one already—need to do some serious soul-searching as to what you are teaching. You are preaching that it is OK to use instrumental music in the assembly to 99.999% of the congregations who do not agree with your position.

You are essentially creating confusion and prompting the same division that occurred a century ago. And interestingly, the issue then was about instrumental music. Have you considered joining the Christian Church—it already has what you teach? In this way, the unity of the church will be preserved.


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(no login)

Re: “You should … likewise [leave the church]”

January 28 2007, 7:04 PM 

You are promoting what you have said that you hate....circular logic (Walt).
You didn't answer the allegations about you continually slamming the leadership at your church. You seem to be content now that the worship leader has quit. Is that truly Christianity?
Also, I do not promote instumental music....this again is you taking what I say and senationlalizing it. Maybe a job at the Star or National Enquirer would be more apt to your abilities Donnie. I have always, and CONTINUE to worship at a church (church of Christ) where there is accapella music. The bullet for you and Bill and others from the more liberal side of the church is that there is a movement now where there is no condemnation of such instrumental music....which is the way it should be. God does not condemn it, and thats good enough for everyone else. You and others quote....
I Cor 4:6 Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another. take insrumental music and make into a sin, where God has not.

Again, Donnie, if you are not happy at Madison, why stay? Why use this forum to bring down the Madison church and other sister congregations?
Do you really really believe that God will condone this???
God will protect His Kingdom and He will make sure that His Son's sacrifice will not be in vain.
God is merciful Donnie, but He will have His day. I just hope and pray that you and others here at this site come to your senses before that day breaks!

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)

RE: You Should...Likewise (Servant)

January 29 2007, 3:30 AM 

Servant says that he worships at a church of Christ with a cappella music, yet he says that we make instrumental music a sin where God does not. Thus Servant endorses IM in worship. This kind of theology holds that we may add and implement anything in worship that God does not specifically forbid by name. Since God does not specifically forbid instruments by name, then instruments may be used in worship. One doesn't even have to fall back on the Old Testament and Psalm 150 to justify IM...according to Servant's theology.

The problem is that Servant's theology ignores what God has already specified regarding the kind of music to use in worship--singing and making melody in the heart (Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16)--and endorses ADDING that which God has not authorized in the NT. And yes, any time we direct our songs and praise to God, we do worship Him. Servant ADDS according to his desires, not Gods' desire. Now since God has already specified vocal music only, to ADD IM is actually to go beyond what the NT specifies about worship music. 1 Cor. 4:6 forbids us to go beyond what is written in the NT. Alas, Servant cannot fathom this. Now if God had said for us simply to "make music" without being more specific, then we would have been free to use ANY kind of music we wished. But since God has specified only vocal music, we are not at liberty to implement anything beyond what has been written in the NT; that is, we are not at liberty to add or endorse IM.

Even though a church may not add IM, to teach that IM is acceptable in worship is not sound doctrine.

A similar analogy applies to the Lord's Supper. Christ specified bread and fruit of the vine. Suppose a church wanted to "spice up" the Supper by adding jelly to the bread. God doesn't forbid adding jelly by name anywhere in the NT, so it must be OK to add it to the bread, right? But who would actually add jelly? Since 1 Cor. 4:6 forbids us to go beyond what is written in NT Scripture, we may add nothing like jelly to the Lord's Supper, even if God does not specifically forbid the jelly by name. Likewise, we may neither add nor endorse IM or anything else to vocal music, even if God does not forbid IM by name.

It's important for all Christians to realize that God doesn't need to make an exhaustive list of everything that is forbidden, especially if He has already issued a command to DO something a certain way or in a certain manner, as in the case of vocal music. Since 1 Cor. 4:6 tells us to stay within the bounds of NT Scripture, the faithful will do just that; they will neither add nor endorse IM. The rebellious and unfaithful will add IM to please themselves or endorse IM to appear more acceptable in the eyes of the denominations.

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(no login)

Re: RE: You Should...Likewise (Servant)

January 29 2007, 4:28 PM 

The silence of God is not permissive....didn't you forget that one too Bill?
Tell me too where you found that at, by the way?
DId you perhaps find in the book of Acts, or Romans?
How about this one too....Speak where the Bible speaks, and be silent where the Bible is silent.
Please show book and verse.....
Didn't think so.

It is only man conjuring up an idea, a quandary, or plethora of notions to back his PREFERRENCES. He likes what he likes so he induces notions, not of God, to back his PREFERRENCES.

When man decides to list a sin in the Bible where God has not, he has added to the Word of God, which Bill Crump,and others voraciously apply here like mayonnaise on a mayonnaise sandwich.

He can say that "singing' means accapela only, and thus promotes his preferrences. At least singing is mentioned in the NT. How does he come up with the thought processes for a church building, or amplification, that is no where mentioned in the NT. Where is the application of 1 Cor 4:6 now?
That isn't adding to the Word, that is 'generic authority.' 'Generic authority' can cover a multitude of sins, can't it Bill?
Again, we like to use the word PREFERRENCE here. Bill prefers things his way, so even though he doesn't have Scriptural backing he comes up with these sayings. They sound good, just as the Pharisees sounded good quoting Moses.
God doesn't give us guidance when he tells us to "GO" and preach the Gosepel. Does He spell out how to go? If we went by plane or automobile would it matter?
When we sing, whether we sing with or without instruments, does it matter?
God tells us that fornication is wrong, and He would have done the same thing to instruments if He would have wanted us to know that instruments are wrong to use with singing.
When we sing, we sing with our hearts to Praise God. This can be done with or without instruments in the worship setting. Just as amplication in the building can be overpowering, so can instruments. But when you have the amplication (PA system) at the perfect level, and that piano where all it does is COMPLIMENT the voice, then God is Praised!!....and finally after all of the postings by the men here at this site.....NOT ONE of them could prove, through history, that the first century church did/did not use instrumental music during their time of worship. You hear men of history tell you what they prefer, but none could tell you about the musical worship pattern of Corinth, Ephesus, etc. They tell you what they believe or want to believe the way it was, but offer up no proof to back their PREFERRENCES.
Praise God FOREVER!!!

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(no login)

Re: RE: You Should...Likewise (Servant)

January 29 2007, 5:24 PM 

The problem with bill's theology is one thing: HYPOCRISY.
He says that adding specific things (like jelly) to a worship service is sinful, but can not, after being asked repeatedly on this site and faithsite, answer why it is OK to add the things he deems appropriate, such as song books.

What do you say bill, ready to give it a shot yet????

OK don- I know you don't have control over the leadership at other congregations. That's not what I am asking with the question, "What are churches supposed to do with your warning?" The question is: hypothetically, if you DID have control over the leadership at an un-infiltrated church, what would be your suggestion? What can they DO to stop the fake "change agents"???
Why is it so hard for y'all to answer this question?

As far as me not attending a C of C anymore, are you seriously ignorant, or are you just acting like it to prove a point? The Church of Christ is a denomination. No one here thinks you believe otherwise. The Church of Jesus Christ includes all believers. They don't have to walk in a door with the words "Church of Christ" on the door every Sunday to be included. You can say "We're not a denomination" all you want. I can also point at a cat and say, "That's not a cat, it's a dog", but guess what? Despite what I call it, it's still a cat.

I left the Church of Christ denomination. I am very much a member of the Church of Jesus Christ, the one you read about in the New Testament. If you want to know why, read many of my posts, here & at faithsite. Particularly my last one on this thread.

Do you really want a comparative analysis of my church's doctrine vs. yours? I'll give you one if you will seriously read it and respond to it fairly. I won't waste my time if you've already decided that it's heresy before you even see it, and only care to ridicule it.

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Ken Sublett
(no login)

God is never SILENT: the word SPEAK excludes poetry and music.

January 29 2007, 6:53 PM 

There are two or three Psalms which have David singing to himself and meditating in the heart. Here is a quote from Maccabees which was in the version Jesus read. Notice that the TRUE God was the God of the Patriarch. Because of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai they LOST the Book of The Covenant and were stuck with the 'worship of the starry host' and a law to legislate for the lawless. Paul jumps over the Law (including David) and declares that the PROMISE made by the Spirit was to Abraham and at baptism we become children of Abraham and NOT David.
2 Maccabees 1

1 - The Jewish brethren in Jerusalem and those in the land of Judea, To their Jewish brethren in Egypt, Greeting, and good peace.
2 - May God do good to you, and may he remember his covenant with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, his faithful servants.
3 - May he give you all a heartto worship him and to do his will with a strong heart and a willing spirit.
4 - May he open your heart to his law and his commandments, and may he bring peace.
5 - May he hear your prayers and be reconciled to you, and may he not forsake you in time of evil.
2 Maccabees 15

26 - and Judas and his men met the enemy in battle with invocation to God and prayers.

27 - So, fighting with their hands and
praying to God IN THEIR HEARTS
they laid low no less than thirty-five thousand men,
and were greatly gladdened by God's manifestation.

OUTWARD In Romans 15 Paul defined the ekklesia or synagogue and and used different words to define what goes on in the heart:
They were to speak with ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH using "that which is written" further defined as "Scripture" in order to edify or educate one another. With Scripture he goes on to say that "you are competent to admonish one another."

The INWARD effect would be that they would glorify God or the Spirit OF Christ Who spoke through the Prophets, they would comfort one another with the Scriptures and they would keep the unity.

That is exactly what is commanded in Ephesians and what the church obeyed for almost 400 years when "external singing" was added. That lapse existed until the Reformation when the Calvinists restored the TEXT as the commanded resource or "that which is written."

Alexander Campbell caused the collapse of the "RESTORED first century principle" because he had a song book to sell.

As clearly as the Spirit of Christ could make it the direct command is:

OUTWARD method Speaking, Teaching, Admonishing.
RESOURCE: The Word of Christ or the Spirit (meaning the Words of Christ John 6:63)
TO WHOM: One to another.

INWARD RESULTS singing AND making melody (or grace)
Where? IN the heart: the heart or spirit or mind is a PLACE.
TO WHOM: To God. Giving thanks.

Many early scholars repudiated OUTWARD SINGING based on this direct command. This lasted until about 373. Later writers had to DEFEND against the discord caused by OUTWARD SINGING claiming that it was not SINGING but MUSIC which Paul outlawed.

There is NO music word used in the connection with the spirit-to-Spirit worship of a Spirit God "Who does not judge by what He sees or hears" (Isaiah 11). When Jesus denied that God even knew the name of the "Lord, Lord" prophesiers He was speaking directly to "prophesying" which meant to "sing and play instruments" to drive themselves into a frenzy which they WERE TOLD was the gods or demons. John in Revelation along with the definitions and uses of "singing" with or without instruments as SORCERY (Rev 18). That defines anyone who uses external means especially with impure musical tones which Nirmrod and modern medicine knew induced a drug high and produced pain for someone's gain. That is a fact and no one will find a jot or tittle which differes. One might expect that the MASSES collected ONLY by a "drug high" could never be the tiny REMNANT.

Why else would an infamous Texas "preacherling" deliberately lie about every musical term in the Bible and recorded history? Music has always been DEFACTO lying along with drama which is OUTLAWED by the words for SPEAK. Jesus refused to speak the truth to that GENERATON which He clearly defined by "children piping" and the "agora." Peter made it clear that SALVATION was not a punched ticket on the Joy Bus to Heaven but salvation FROM that CROOKED GENERATION. The word CROOKED and PERVERSE is defined clearly with the SINGING and instruments "pointed to" when Paul said "don't get drunk on wine" which in the texts always turns out to be DON'T GET FLUTED DOWN WITH WINE. Only by coming in out of the BLAST of those BLOWING WIND is it possible to REST and "learn of Me" says Jesus.

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(no login)

Re: RE: You Should...Likewise (Servant)

January 30 2007, 11:39 AM 

I notice too where you mention...
"A similar analogy applies to the Lord's Supper. Christ specified bread and fruit of the vine. Suppose a church wanted to "spice up" the Supper by adding jelly to the bread. God doesn't forbid adding jelly by name anywhere in the NT, so it must be OK to add it to the bread, right? But who would actually add jelly? Since 1 Cor. 4:6 forbids us to go beyond what is written in NT Scripture, we may add nothing like jelly to the Lord's Supper, even if God does not specifically forbid the jelly by name. Likewise, we may neither add nor endorse IM or anything else to vocal music, even if God does not forbid IM by name."

This is an age old faulty proof (or lack thereof), and again, man's need to conjur up something out of the blue to mask his preferrence and try to set it up as Scriptural.

Singing ACCOMPANIED by piano (a tool or aid, not an addition)
We accompany the song leader as well with a PA system.
The fruit of the vine mentioned as the cup. ADDING jelly to substitute for it.
Jelly for the cup instead of the fruit of the vine, and a piano to AID the singing.
Those show similiar logic, right?
The jelly is not the fruit of the vine (specific), and is therefore an addition, where the piano AIDS singing (singing is still accomplished with the piano). Jelly is not even a liquid, not even close to the fruit of the vine.
That is what you deal with here people, that sort of logic.
TO 'SING' doesn't specify how or with what. A PA is used, just as a piano is. The piano does not change the voice or singing, neither does the PA.
See there Bill, this is easier than you think!

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Not Impressed
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Instruments Listed in Psalm 150

January 30 2007, 1:07 PM 

To Servant and Amazed:

Psalm 150 (commonly quoted passage by IM proponents) lists several instruments and even dancing; it also mentions “let every thing that hath breath praise the Lord” [which includes birds, animals and other creatures that breathe]:

— sound of the trumpet
— psaltery
— harp
— timbrel
— stringed instruments
— organs
— loud cymbals
— high sounding cymbals

Which of these instruments would you recommend to the elders of a congregation who decide to follow your influence as an elder of your own congregation? Are you going to help other elders select any or all of the instruments listed above? Would you add more to the list—piano, etc.? Would you also recommend a musical band and the presence of rock artists performing for the congregation?

You see, when you mention something to the effect that the silence of the scriptures does not prohibit certain things, I would suppose that with instruments being allowable, according to your interpretation, that you would highly recommend extra-ordinary elements to your worship service. So, as the saying goes, is the sky the limit?

While you may claim that you are not “promoting” instrumental music, aren’t you really doing so by saying that it is OK? I thought the options would be either: (1) that is authorized or (2) that it is not authorized—but not both.

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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: Instruments Listed in Psalm 150

January 30 2007, 6:45 PM 

Good points, Not Impressed. Servant, by declaring that there is nothing wrong with using instruments in worship (though he claims to be a member of an a cappella c of C), endorses, promotes, or otherwise condones IM in worship, whether he realizes that or not. But just to be fair: instruments of themselves are not sinful at all; the unauthorized use of those instruments in worship is sinful.

What Servant and other liberals cannot or will not fathom, understand, or acknowledge, is that if God issues commands or directives about certain elements of worship and tells us specifically how to go about them or conduct them, then for anyone to supplement or add to those directives or commands is pure arrogance that supercedes God and violates 1 Cor. 4:6. NOTHING may be added to God's commands that He has not otherwise authorized, neither does God need to make an exhaustive list of everything forbidden. By the very nature of His commands, everything else not authorized therein is EXCLUDED. Those who choose to forge ahead with unauthorized implementations put themselves in the place of God with the attitude of, "What God commanded is rather boring or unattractive, so we're gonna spruce things up a bit and help Him out by making His command more appealing to the masses." In the case of worship music, God commanded only vocal music in the NT; Servant and other liberals ADD or ENDORSE instruments, which are not authorized; their actions go beyond what is written in the NT.

Adding or endorsing instruments in worship is a denominational preference that some in the c of C have borrowed. It would be better if those people like Servant just packed up and left the c of C and joined the denominations, for they already possess a denominational spirit. As long as they remain in the c of C with such attitudes, they cause division, disharmony, and disruption by pushing denominational doctrines and creeds.

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Ken Sublett
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David was a STAR WORSHIPER: Hence in the FIRMAMENT!

January 30 2007, 7:43 PM 

What people miss is explained by Stephen which got him murdered: he said that because of the idolatry at Mount Sinai God turned them over to worship the Starry Host. The king, kingdom and temple were part of the Gentile-like nation to which god finally abandoned them to the whims of erthly kings (senior preachers). All history knows that there was nothing in the monarchy period which was good: that is why the kings were selected to lead them into war, slavery and finally captivity and death:
    "But, say they, it is written, 'All who were before the Lord's advent are thieves and robbers.'... The devil is called 'thief and robber;' having mixed false prophets with the prophets, as tares with the wheat. 'All, then, that came before the Lord, were thieves and robbers;' not absolutely all men, but all the false prophets, and all who were not properly sent by Him. For the false prophets possessed the prophetic name dishonestly, being prophets, but prophets of the liar.

    "And the Shepherd, the angel of repentance, says to Hermes, of the false prophet: 'For he speaks some truths. For the devil fills him with his own spirit, If perchance he may be able to cast down any one from what is right. (Clement, Stromata, p. 319)

Jochim and Boaz were in fact HERMAE or phallic symbols with the juices flowing out the top because THAT is what God abandoned them to. Maybe the lust for a new HERMEneutic is the MARK because it had NO HIGHER motive than to spread viper juice using NEW STYLE music from OLD STYLE Babylon. David is ALL they have!

That is why John refused to baptize the generation of vipers, Jesus refused to teach them and Peter said that we must be saved FROM that crooked generation. They were noted for wine, Skolion singing and perversion. Most would die along with their MEGA CHURCH along with their harps and harpists which they are still trying to find.

We know that the Abomination of Desolation in the Temple was Zeus and Dionysus or Bacchus worship and they PIPED hoping that John wore SOFT clothing and Jesus would sing and dance the Dionysus choral dance where the LAMENTING was a result of being INITIATED into their "brotherhood" and history knows that perversion permeated all priesthoods. Plutarch whom they used as authority to PLUCK the harp also demands that they PLUCK they "youth ministers of the gods" and also insists that the "god" worshipped by the Jews--even if they called Him Jehovah--was Dionysus. Paul warned not to "open" the worship because OUTSIDE there lurked DOGS and the CONCISION. These were the CATAMITES or male homosexuals and when a FALSE PROPHET proves to be so crooked that he can lie TO God and ABOUT god to "make a place in respected mainstream" for his musical pals this is the MARK you need to watch for.

If they REQUESTED and God abanded them to this worship according to Stephen and many Old Testament passages who can doubt the statement that the Greeks and the Jews fleeing Egypt brought the same "god" where the PLAY was musical idolatry which ignored the Word and INDUCED sexuality and perverted Sexuality. Romans 1 defines it and that is why Paul always MARKS the false religionism before he COMMANDS a SPEAKING form of teaching which EXCLUDES poetic speech (rhetoric) or music.

the Eleusinian. Thus "Bacchus was directly called upon," he says. The Sabazian worship was Sabbatic; the names Evius, or Hevius, and Luaios are identical with Hivite and Levite.

The French name Louis is the Hebrew Levi; Iacchus again is Iao or Jehovah; and Baal or Adon, like Bacchus, was a phallic god.

"Who shall ascend into the hill (the HIGH place) of the Lord?" asks the holy king David, "who shall stand in the place of his Kadushu [[Heb char]]"? (Psalms xxiv. 3). Kadesh may mean in one sense to devote, hallow, sanctify, and even to initiate or to set apart;
    but it also means the ministers of lascivious rites (the Venus-worship Venus is Lucifer or ZOE) and the true interpretation of the word Kadeshis bluntly rendered in Deuteronomy xxiii. 17; Hosea iv. 14; and Genesis xxxviii., from verses 15 to 22.
There is NO doubt that this is what David fell into when removing the Ark of the Covenant from Gods TENT to the Jebusite High Place. He "praised" and confessed that he MADE HIMSELF VILE but the camp follower girls would HONOR HIM.

The "holy" Kadeshuth of the Bible were identical as to the duties of their office with the Nautch-girls of the later Hindu pagodas.
    Deut 23:17 There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel.

    Deut 23:18 Thou shalt not bring the hire of a whore, or the price of a DOG into the house of the Lord thy God for any vow: for even both these are abomination unto the Lord thy God.

    Hos 4:14 I will not punish your daughters when they commit whoredom, nor your spouses when they commit adultery: for themselves are separated with whores, and they sacrifice with harlots: therefore the people that doth not understand shall fall.
The Hebrew Kadeshim or galli lived "by the house of the Lord, where the women wove hangings for the grove," or bust of Venus-Astarte, says verse the seventh in the twenty-third chapter of 2 Kings.

The dance performed by David round the ark was the "circle-dance" said to have been prescribed by the Amazons for the Mysteries. Such was the dance of the daughters of Shiloh (Judges xxi. 21, 23 et passim), and the leaping of the prophets of Baal (I Kings xviii. 26). It was simply a characteristic of the Sabean worship, for it denoted the motion of the planets round the sun.

That the dance was a Bacchic frenzy is apparent. Sistra were used on the occasion, and the taunt of Michael and the king's reply are very expressive. "The king of Israel uncovered himself before his maid-servants as one of the vain (or debauched) fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself." And he retorts: "I will play (act wantonly) before [[Heb char]], and I will be yet more vile than this, and I will be base in my own sight."

When we remember that David had sojourned among the Tyrians and Philistines, where their rites were common; and that indeed he had conquered that land away from the house of Saul, by the aid of mercenaries from their country, the countenancing and even, perhaps, the introduction of such a Pagan-like worship by the weak "psalmist" seems very natural. David knew nothing of Moses, it seems, and if he introduced the Jehovah-worship it was not in its monotheistic character, but simply as that of one of the many gods of the neighboring nations -- a tutelary deity to whom he had given the preference, and chosen among "all other gods."

It was GAD the STARGAZER and not a writing prophet used by God to speak to David when he was too fearful to return to Gibeon and when God gave him a Jebusite High Place for his GENTILE-LIKE capital. David wants to praise or MAKE HIMSELF VILE in the FIRMAMENT and that proves that as history knows the KINGDOM was devoted to Astrial or Star or Planet worship.

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

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Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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