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Servant
(no login)
69.59.78.95

Re: Instruments Listed in Psalm 150

January 30 2007, 8:38 PM 

Not Impressed:
You said at the end of preferred way...
"1) that is authorized or (2) that it is not authorized—but not both.

How about
c)Use common sense

If God doesn't condemn with Scripture, then it is not condemnable.
Again, and again God tells us to sing, he doesn't tell us how.
He doesn't authorize PA systems but we use them. If God had not wanted us to use amplification of the voice, He would have specifically told us NOT TO do so. He did not, therefore we use them because it AIDS, and a PA system is a TOOL. Are you to also use the 'Generic Authority' phrase to tell me it is ok to use what you like, but not what some other man likes? How about Simon Says...where God tells us ONLY what is authorized, and anything else beyond that is disgraceful? So God doesn't tell us to use a PA system, but then again you could refer back to 'Generic Authority' for keeping orderly worship. Have you never heard a piano softly in the background that only enhances the voice? Not overpowering? When a piano is in tune and a musician that knows how to play it, it actually DOES keep better order than the voice alone. A piano keeps the vocalist/group in pitch and in tempo better than vocal only.
Now Impressed are you to show me the chart that has a piano as an ADDITION, then that same chart having a PA system, and books, and pews, buildings, etc. as TOOLS and AIDS?
How convenient. Again, just man masking his preferrences without Scriptural backing.
Sin also comes in with man condeming another man because another man doesn't follow his preferrences. If God doesn't condemn it then man has no right to do this also.
Did I leave anything out?

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
207.69.137.7

Re: Instruments Listed in Psalm 150

January 31 2007, 12:25 AM 

So Servant stubbornly holds that we can do or implement anything in worship that God doesn't forbid by name. According to that logic, if God issues a specific command and mentions a specific element, such as commanding vocal music, we can still add instruments, because God doesn't forbid instruments in the New Testament by name. According to that logic, God's silence is universally permissive, and the sky really is the limit. Yet Servant says to "use common sense."

"Common sense" is subject to all kinds of human aberrations. What is "common sense" to one is heresy to another. It's far better to observe 1 Cor. 4:6 and stay within the bounds of NT Scripture by not adding anything to what God has already commanded, regarding worship issues. That verse serves as a check and balance against using the "sky as the limit."

Remember the analogy I used about adding something else to the Lord's Supper besides bread and fruit of the vine? Let's say we wanted to add popcorn. Christ specified the emblems for the Supper but did not forbid popcorn by name. According to Servant's logic, we certainly can add popcorn, yet he would say that was not using common sense. Why? Because it pollutes the Lord's Supper perhaps? Right! No one would ever think of observing the LS by adding popcorn, because it would make a sham of the LS. So what's the difference in that principle and adding instruments to vocal music for worship? Because society has done it for hundreds of years and thinks it's "acceptable"? Instruments in Christian worship have NEVER been acceptable, because God did not authorize them in the NT.

Friends, we're not talking about what's accptable to the human mind. We're talking about what is acceptable and obedient to God's commands by not polluting them with man's selfish additions to satisfy his own pleasures. We don't add popcorn to the LS. We likewise don't add instruments to vocal music in worship, not because God forbids popcorn and instruments, but because He does not authorize them. We also do not add popcorn and instruments, because to add either one or both is to go beyond what is written in NT Scripture.

Yet the liberals, progressives, and postmodernists will continue to argue against 1 Cor. 4:6 until Doom's Day, because the only thing that would ever restrain them from adding what they wish to NT Scripture is if God actually catered to their whims and issued an exhaustive list of EVERYTHING on earth that was forbidden. And even then, there would be much searching for loopholes.

 
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Servant
(no login)
130.127.130.40

Re: Instruments Listed in Psalm 150

January 31 2007, 10:06 AM 

Bill:
Let's talk about the two men that did well with the talents from the parable of Jesus.
Were they instructed on how to use their talents? No Bill...they were not!
They were entrusted with property and money. They weren't told how to invest those talents though.
God gives us a command to sing. If we use our voice to please and praise Him, then He is happy.
What if we go UP and BEYOND that with praising Him with our talents of musical instrumentation?
If we have the talent and don't use it, or do not use it for the Glory of God, then we are like the third man who hid his talent and was told to thrown outside where therer will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Now Bill, that is common sense and definitely not a heresy. Do you always use book knowledge without common sense plodding through a career of medicine? I pray for those under your care if you do!
We also have an example of David in the OT. He gave ALL to the glory of God. Did God tell David that it wrong to use instruments of music. NO!!! God was Glorified because David LOVED GOD enough to use EVERYTHING in his being to Praise God. Bill, shove that aside because that is the OT, right? Cut that part out of the Word of God because even though it shows us by example how to really love our God it still is not part of our new covenant with Jesus and God. Please don't use Amos 6:5 and make mockery of the Word. It smiply doesn't apply. The church of Christ for years has used that passage for years. It is NOT condemning David. It talks about THOSE WHO WOULD USE them NOT to the GLORY of God.

Bill, common sense again....I have to bring it up again here, since we are going from jelly now to popcorn for substitutes for the cup during communion.
Refer back to my previous post about fruit of the vine being specific. If you tried your popcorn (or jelly), that would be using something beyond what was described or have example of. By the way, do we have an example of using either popcorn or jelly anywhere in the Scriptures for communion (It would have to be NT)?
Do we have any example of anyone using, and PLEASING God with the instrument in the Scriptures.
Maybeeeeeeeeeeee King David???
Use your Generic Authority Bill and the old chart to tell me how a piano is an addition to God's Word, and how a PA system and church buildings are TOOLS and AIDS.
Now THAT is heresy!
Yours and others preferrences. You even admitted to it in a previous post. PREFERRENCE.
The sin comes in when you try to rewrite the Word of God and make instrumental music sin where God has not.
I remember someone once upon a time telling me how God doesn't tell us that crack of cocaine is not a specified Scriptural sin.
Let us revisit the common sense theme again.
Our bodys are temples to the Lord.
Crack is bad for the body.
Crack is sin.
Instruments are also not mentioned as sin in the Scriptures. Are they unhealthy to our bodies like crack?
Have we ever seen anyone use them, LIKE KING DAVID, to Praise God?
See Bill, common sense was applied by the men with the talents and we CAN and SHOULD still use it today.
Common sense used to LOVE God more!
What a wonderful notion and idea!!!
Maybe I could patent it.



 
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Amazed
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64.185.31.163

Re: Instruments Listed in Psalm 150

January 31 2007, 10:24 AM 


Not Impressed,
You seem typical of many of the C of Cer's I know. You don't really have a firm scriptural reason for not wanting instruments, but you fear it may lead to "other things" like rock music, dancers, fireworks, juggling monkeys, who knows what?

I worship in a church with instrumentsl music. Some of it may even be classified as "rock" music. But like God, it's not the style of music, but the words that are important to us. You should try it.

By the way, billcrump- You might want to stop using I Cor.4:6 as an example to teach us to follow the New Testament because Paul says there, not to "go beyond what is written". The only New Testament books written before I Corinthians, are I & II Thessalonians, Galatians, and possibly James. So, I'm sure Paul was telling the church in Corinth not to go beyond what was written in those 4 books. I'm positive he was talking about the modern day New Testament when he said that.

It's weird. You would think that when God inspired him to write that, he would have been more specific and said, "Don't go beyond what has been written, and will be written, and will one day be one of the 66 books that is the sum total of all I have to say to you, and all men from now until the end of time." Oh well, I guess that's why he sent guys like you, to interpret for Him. Thanks billcrump!


 
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Not Impressed
(no login)
170.141.109.33

What about ALL the instruments in Psalm 150?

January 31 2007, 11:44 AM 

To Servant:

You said, “If God doesn't condemn with Scripture, then it is not condemnable.” Do you believe this because you think that God doesn’t condemn you for expressing such an unfounded assertion? Where is your evidence for making such a declaration—give me B-C-V (is it found in the book of Servant 199:99)? Anyone can easily deduce from YOUR viewpoint that since God doesn’t condemn a punk heavy metal rock or rap artist performing in front of your congregation where you serve as an elder, that it is OK with your approval but not God’s approval?

When you start listing items such as a PA system, a projector, air conditioning, pews, etc., to support your argument for unauthorized uses, it really weakens YOUR OPINION or VIEWPOINT. Common sense will tell you that these technologies weren’t in existence at the time of the apostles and the early Christians; but there were already musical instruments at the time—and they were available but NOT USED.

Just as expected, you mentioned the piano. Were there pianos during David’s era? Maybe … maybe not. Besides, based on your reliance upon the Scripture [which is good] to comply with what’s specifically mentioned, as well as to comply with what’s NOT specifically mentioned, I find it negligent and evasive on your part to say NOTHING concerning the list of instruments. The basic question was—why are you not abiding by what’s specifically listed in Psalm 150:

— sound of the trumpet
— psaltery
— harp
— timbrel
— stringed instruments
— organs
— loud cymbals
— high sounding cymbals

Wouldn’t you use ALL of the instruments listed above? Remember that they are “scriptural,” according to you—not to mention that you don’t seem to know and understand what “rightly dividing the word of truth” really means. It is obvious that you are guilty of both adding to and subtracting from God’s Word.

Keep in mind, Servant, it is my understanding that Madison’s elders have conveyed the message to their congregation that the church will never go instrumental. Of course, time will tell if that message is going to change and if their elders decide to implement or ADD musical instruments to their worship. And here you are—another elder who is promoting this man-contrived “preference.”

I honestly believe that your advice to “use common sense” is applicable to you. You are engendering confusion and disunity in churches of Christ. And, yes, not only did you leave out a lot—you also added a lot to God’s directives for the church.

 
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Servant:
(no login)
69.59.78.95

Not Imprressed seems to BE Impressed

January 31 2007, 5:54 PM 

Servant:

You said, “If God doesn't condemn with Scripture, then it is not condemnable.” Do you believe this because you think that God doesn’t condemn you for expressing such an unfounded assertion? Where is your evidence for making such a declaration—give me B-C-V (is it found in the book of Servant 199:99)? Anyone can easily deduce from YOUR viewpoint that since God doesn’t condemn a punk heavy metal rock or rap artist performing in front of your congregation where you serve as an elder, that it is OK with your approval but not God’s approval?

When you start listing items such as a PA system, a projector, air conditioning, pews, etc., to support your argument for unauthorized uses, it really weakens YOUR OPINION or VIEWPOINT. Common sense will tell you that these technologies weren’t in existence at the time of the apostles and the early Christians; but there were already musical instruments at the time—and they were available but NOT USED.

Just as expected, you mentioned the piano. Were there pianos during David’s era? Maybe … maybe not. Besides, based on your reliance upon the Scripture [which is good] to comply with what’s specifically mentioned, as well as to comply with what’s NOT specifically mentioned, I find it negligent and evasive on your part to say NOTHING concerning the list of instruments. The basic question was—why are you not abiding by what’s specifically listed in Psalm 150:

— sound of the trumpet
— psaltery
— harp
— timbrel
— stringed instruments
— organs
— loud cymbals
— high sounding cymbals

Wouldn’t you use ALL of the instruments listed above? Remember that they are “scriptural,” according to you—not to mention that you don’t seem to know and understand what “rightly dividing the word of truth” really means. It is obvious that you are guilty of both adding to and subtracting from God’s Word.

Keep in mind, Servant, it is my understanding that Madison’s elders have conveyed the message to their congregation that the church will never go instrumental. Of course, time will tell if that message is going to change and if their elders decide to implement or ADD musical instruments to their worship. And here you are—another elder who is promoting this man-contrived “preference.”

I honestly believe that your advice to “use common sense” is applicable to you. You are engendering confusion and disunity in churches of Christ. And, yes, not only did you leave out a lot—you also added a lot to God’s directives for the church.

At least I impressed on you enough to perhaps see that you are holding onto an archaic way of thinkg, perhaps?
Change can be good Impressed, even with the church....did I say anything about changing the Word of God? Thank you !!!
You are bent towards saying that you thought a heavy dose of common sense would help here, but you didn't show any. If I have already said that a piano played softly in the background just as a PA system not turned up to overpower the speaker or song leader works, does that give way to your thinking of loud headbanging music??? If you spew inuindos about common sense then use none, then perhaps you say one thing but mean something else!
A person can hear, but not listen....wouldn't you say that is right Impressed?
Thank you again!!!
Where is the confusion now? That line, Impressed, about the Punk Rockers performing is called GRANDSTANDING, and that would be better fitted for the National Enquirer or Star magazine, as it would make good sensationalism.
No Impressed, the lining up of PA system, and buildings does NOT weaken my argument. I am not against these, but these are unncessdary for a spiritual worship to God. Yes, you can say that the piano is not necessary either. But just as I told Bill we are given talents to use the best way possible. PA systems AID.....just as the piano AIDS our worship. Is it time for YOU to pull out the chart with telling me about piano being an ADDITION where a PA systems is an AID? Don't bother. They are BOTH AIDS, and you know it!
What IS WEAK Impressed is that you could only come up with the piano being not mentioned in the Old Testament. David used instruments of music, and you KNOW that is the point! You mentioned that the technology of PA systems were not available during the first century church but avoided the fact that the piano was not an instument of David's time. Let's see Impressed....PA systems not mentioned in the Scriptures but ok to use them today (because the technology wasnt't in place), but pianos not being mentioned anywhwere either means they aren't authorized. PAs are good, pianos are bad. Hmmmm, yes, how convenient!
I asked this bunch here Impressed to prove to me where instruments of music were not used in the first century church. They could not. I even quoted one of the early historians that they used (Clemente) as saying that there was no blame if instruments were to be used in the service.
All of the historians that they quoted spoke of how they disliked the instrument themselves, and how they PREFERRED the vocal instrument best of all. NONE of these historians could prove without a shadow of a doubt that the Aposles, and the first century churches DID not use them. The history that I have read about is that the instuments of the first century were expensive to make from expensive wood and not likely to have been used because of the COST, not because they were condemned.
Above ALL Impressed, I could see that you don't PREFER instruments of music, just as I don't. I also see where you are not here to discuss if instruments of music are authorized are not, but here for a good argument. Why would I say that? When you talked about me sticking to the instruments that David ONLY used you showed your true colors. GRANDSTANDING again!!! The line about me both adding to and taking away from the Word sounds a bit like what Jesus had to deal with the Pharisees. Jesus didn't care to even argue with them, because like you, you aren't in it to promote the love of the cross or to build up the church, but to TRY to tear it down. Notice Impressed....I used the word TRY. God will not let it happen!
So go on about your merry ways Impressed, try and judge those things that you should not. I don't care for anything but acappela when it comes to worship of the Father. I WILL NOT however try to take God's place and become Judge on things for which God should only be allowed to Judge. Let Him do that when He sends His Son again. I know that when you speak of instrumental music as sin, you are in DEEP trouble. You have overstepped your boundary my friend. You make something a sin that God has not. I will pray for your very soul!!!

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
66.19.70.170

Re: What about ALL the instruments in Psalm 150?

January 31 2007, 6:40 PM 

Not Impressed said of Servant: "When you start listing items such as a PA system, a projector, air conditioning, pews, etc., to support your argument for unauthorized uses, it really weakens YOUR OPINION or VIEWPOINT."

Liberals like Servant and others commonly use this kind of vain argument to support the use of instruments, which are also not authorized in the New Testament. Yet we have no problem with utilizing incidentals like PA systems, projectors, pews, and other items in worship. Why is that?

What liberals like Servant and others cannot or will not fathom is that these incidentals neither contradict nor interfere with doctrinal commands about worship that God has set forth in the NT. As I've said before, Christians do have certain liberties in worship, but those liberties must neither add to nor supplement God's existing commands. God has been quite specific about certain worship issues, such as vocal music and the Lord's Supper. Therefore, we cannot add to or supplement what He has already commanded and still remain obedient to Him (1 Cor. 4:6). For example, we can add neither instruments to singing nor popcorn to the LS and still remain obedient to Him. God never issued any commands about incidentals like pews and PA systems for the simple reason that, even had they been available in the first century, they would not have interferred with God's worship doctrine as set forth in the NT; neither do those incidentals interfere with God's worship doctrine today.

The liberals, progressives, and postmodernists have expended too much time and energy searching for shortcuts around God's NT commands or new ways to rewrite them. Their lives would be much simpler and happier if they would just trust God's Word as is and obey it faithfully.


 
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Servant
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69.59.78.95

Re: What about ALL the instruments in Psalm 150?

February 1 2007, 10:41 AM 

Bill:
You would call me a liberal and you and others here make instruments of music a sin where God does not???
I am the liberal?
You trying to rewrite the dictionary along with the Scriptures too?

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
66.19.65.103

Re: What about ALL the instruments in Psalm 150?

February 1 2007, 10:32 PM 

Servant keeps insisting that we make instruments a sin when God does not. Servant keeps ignoring 1 Cor. 4:6, which commands us not to go beyond what is written in Scripture. (Again, that “Scripture” is the New Testament, for Christ nailed the Old Law, the Old Testament, to the cross--Col. 2:14). 1 Cor. 4:6 certainly applies to God’s commands: We are not to go beyond what is written in God’s commands. The principle of that verse tells us that adding to, supplementing, or enhancing any of God’s commands with our own preferences is a sin. By application, the principle of that verse holds that adding instruments when God has specifically commanded us to sing and make melody in our hearts is a sin. That principle of that verse also clearly implies that God’s commands need not list everything forbidden, for anything that man adds on to God's specific commands is prohibited and therefore a sin. Adding instruments is therefore a sin. God’s own principle in 1 Cor. 4:6 certifies that. We conservatives in the c of C did not make that up, contrary to what many believe.

Now if Servant still has problems with what God has commanded; if he cannot accept the principles that God has set forth in the NT, then I would advise him to take it up with God privately and waste no more time pitching his vain and useless arguments on this site.

 
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KEN Sublett
(no login)
66.82.9.49

Re: WHAT HAPPENED AT MADISON THIS WEEK—The Timeline (Part XI)

January 31 2007, 1:41 PM 

The Psalms were mostly War Chants or Parade Songs to be chanted to praise or "make self vile" in order to drive the enemy into cowardice and panic. They have value as TEACHING but one would never use them as authority for the ekklesia or synagogue which EXCLUDED praise songs. One might use them if they wanted to start a WORSHIP WAR or make themselves look like fools to keep people away:

"The name of psaltery entered Christian literature in the 3rd century B.C. translation of the Old Testament called the Septuagint where, in the Psalms, nebel was translated psalterion. Thus, Nebuchadnezzar's idolatrous ensemble included the Aramic psantria. Notice, also, that the book of Psalms has also become known as the Psalter (or psalterium), from the hymns sung with this harp.

NEBUCHADNEZZAR the king made an image of gold, whose height was threescore cubits (60), and the breadth thereof six (6) cubits: he set it up in the plain of Dura (circle), in the province of Babylon. Dan 3:1

That at what time ye hear the sound of the (1) cornet, (2) flute, (3) harp, (4) sackbut, (5) psaltery, (6) dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king hath set up: Dan 3:5


Psaltery reminds us of a NEW WINESKIN religion which is made of THAT WHICH DIED OF ITSELF:

Nebel (h5035) neh'-bel; or nebel nay'-bel; from 5034; a skin- bag for liquids (from collapsing when empty); hence a vase (as similar in shape when full); also a lyre (as having a body of like form): - bottle, pitcher, psaltery, vessel, viol

Nabel (h5034) naw-bale'; a prim. root; to wilt; gen. to fall away, fail, faint; fig. to be foolish or (mor.) wicked; causat. to despise, disgrace: - disgrace, dishonour, lightly esteem, fade (away, - ing), fall (down, -ling, off), do foolishly, come to nought, * surely, make vile, wither..

Nabal (h5036) naw-bawl'; from 5034; stupid; wicked (espec. impious): - fool (-ish, -ish man, -ish woman), vile person.


Just like the instrument of the Witch of Endor as SORCERER.

H178 'ôb obe From the same as H1 (apparently through the idea of prattling a father's name); properly a mumble, that is, a water skin (from its hollow sound); hence a necromancer (ventriloquist, as from a jar):--bottle, familiar spirit.

Sounding brass is a hi-tek Familiar Spirit

G2278 Echeo ay-k; hroar, sound.

G2279 echos ay'-khos Of uncertain affinity; a loud or confused noise ("echo"), that is, roar; figuratively a rumor:fame, sound


Of the flute or organ connected with the Hypocrites in the passages Jesus pointed to:

"Its (pipe = to love passionately) was apparently a secular instrument and is never listed in the temple orchestra; only in Ps. 150:4 it is mentioned in a religious (but not ritual) function. Its ethos was not blameless at all, as we see from Genesis Rabbah 50:

'The angels said to Lot: 'There are players of the pipe (organ) in the country, hence it ought to be destroyed'." Its rabbinical identification with the aboda, the flute of the notorious Syrian bayaderes, emphasizes the erotic element which already the Hebrew name suggests." (Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, p. 460, Abingdon).


Horace:

Tempt Faunus from his Grecian seat;
He keeps my little goats in bliss [capella=She Goats]
Apart from wind, and rain, and heat.

Tempt Faunus from his Grecian seat;
He keeps my little goats in bliss [capella=She Goats]
Apart from wind, and rain, and heat.

Or uncover what is hidden in the verdure of thy shade!
Silence thou thy savage cymbals, and the Berecyntine horn;
In their train Self-love still follows, dully, desperately blind,
And Vain-glory, towering upwards in its emptyheaded scorn,
And the Faith that keeps no secrets, with a window in its mind.

 
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Not Impressed
(no login)
170.141.109.33

Wow! Punk Heavy Metal Rockers and Rappers: an Addition (But Not Instruments)

February 1 2007, 3:24 PM 

To Servant:

No, nothing in Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16 is archaic and to you, therefore, should be discarded.

“Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.” Servant, the emphasis here is in teaching and admonishing the word of Christ—not in harping and trumpeting.

“Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord.” Servant, again, the emphasis here is the conveyance of the message—not in playing with your mouth and fingers.

By the way, how did you find out about the worship leader at Madison quitting? Is this really true, and how widespread is the news?

You still haven’t addressed the issue of which of the instruments listed in Psalm 150 you are omitting from and adding to the list. You accuse me of adding something to God’s Word when you are the one guilty of adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing [the church].

You should know that musical talent is a physical, natural gift from God to an individual. But you are mistaking that for a spiritual gift. Besides, if I were you, I would NOT depend on inanimate objects like the trumpet and drums to aid me in my worship and devotion to my Creator. Those objects participating in the assembly of the saints do convey unintelligible messages, unlike the word of Christ dwelling richly in the heart.

I didn’t intend to make you angry and defensive about the punk rockers and rappers who wish to perform praise songs for you. But you failed to comprehend the analogy between those live [breathing] performers and the dead instruments—which are YOUR preferences.

You also have not addressed the dancing mentioned in Psalm 150. Is this something you would also want to add to your worship program? What about letting all creatures that have breath also praise, according to Psalm 150? Which of the living animals would you like to bring to the assembly for praise? Of course, Psalm 150 does not mention anything about those live animals being offered as a sacrifice.

There’s more to say, but one more question—Would you consider the psalmist David praising with musical instruments with other “Old Testament Christians” in the assembly during his era? Or, was David ALL ALONE praising—and you would call that an assembly of one saint?

Have a nice and wonderful day!

 
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Servant
(no login)
69.59.78.95

Same ole Same Ole

February 2 2007, 12:21 AM 


Impressed:
You sound like Mike Dugger, but I don't think that you would tell me if it is you. That is ok. The reason why I believe it might be Mike is because it sounds a bit like his reasoning, or lack thereof.
When you bring up bringing in living aminmials into the assembly for praise based on Psalms 150 I know that you aren't in this for the Truth. You are in it just for arguments sake.
You also said that you didn't intend to make me angry about the punk rockers who wish to perform praise songs for me or my church. Well Impressed, sounds like the Enquirer mentallity again....I wasn't angry and by my writing how could you tell that I would have been? Did you conjure up in your mind that my face was getting red, or by something I wrote perhaps showed anger?
Truly good showboating Impressed. You deserve your name!!!
I said nothing about wanting instruments of music in our congregation. Where in my writings did I say anything about wanting punk rockers to perform for us?
You must know Mike Dugger. It sounds JUST LIKE him. Not in it for the Truth, just out to showboat. Oh, by the way...the Old Testament Chrisitans was good too. Nice touch! Do you cut the Old Testament part out of your Bible too?
You never did explain to me why you thought David, who used instruments, pleased God with such? These instruments are similiar to, as you say, lifeless pianos. I would say that a harp and trumpet are lifeless too, wouldn't you? So how did David take these lifeless instruments and Praise Godz? Wonder why David was so loved by God? Lets see now....David had a talent to play these instruments, and he used them to the Glory of God.
Nope, it certainly couldn't be that. Impressed, I just don't know.
Wanted to congratulate you too Impressed on the adding, subtracting, and dividing that you so aptly suggested that I do.
I am guite good at math so I will say thank you for that.
Speaking of math, how about that church you attend. Is it fostering growth? I believe that could be addition and multiplication, or not! Perhaps you do things the same old way, with the same old songs??? You have a huge youth group there? All of you are in harmony there in that you agree that you have always done it that way and that way is good enough today. If they don't like it they don't need to grace the steps of your church??? Sound close Impressed?
You talk to each other and retort on how the Gospel hasn't change one bit! You believe that just because you can't see a spurt in numbers and havning people being won over by the Gospel that you present... well this has no relation to the fact that you might NEED to change something.
Now, asy you say Impressed, not meaning to get you mad now!
You believe that it has everything to do with them liking your PREFERRENCES, and not changing to what they might PREFER. That would NEVER happen.
You would let the church die out before that EVER happened, right?
Even if the preferrences of others did not violate the Scriptures?
Impressed, that is why you come up with ANYTHING and everything that you can possibly think of to GET YOUR WAY. It doesn't matter that all you are talking about is what you PREFER. That is why you talk of "SPEAKING" to yourselves in psalms, and hymns.....in Ephesians as being ONLY acapella.
Speaking doesn't exclude instruments, but since you don't see instruments listed you grab hold of that and make it your dagger. A dagger Impressed, not the Spiritual Sword that it should be. You want to make the Word of God something that it is not....you try to make it a weapon instead of an instrument of Love that Jesus presented.
Now you can tell me about using the Word of God for rebuke??? I look forward to it Impressed.
Can you not SPEAK to one another with an instrument being in the background. You can now tell me how an intrument is for entertaining the masses, not God.
Ya see Impressed, I have heard it all!!! I mean ALL!!!
You haven't told me one thing new, it is still the same song and dance trying to mask your PREFERRENCES.
In one of the threads here Impressed, Donnie Cruz said that the Praise or Worship Leader had stepped down from Madison.
See ya Mike, and YOU ALSO have a wonderful day!!! Excuse me, did I say Mike?

Unity in the church will only come from us loving each other.
Sounds simple, eh?
You want to know about division Mike?
Stay here at this forum long enough!
They have it down to an art here!

 
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Dr. Moon
(no login)
71.197.22.86

Impressed Isn't Mike

February 2 2007, 2:12 PM 

The Not impressed guy isn't Mike. IP's don't match.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
66.19.68.123

RE: Same Ole Same Ole

February 2 2007, 10:13 AM 

Alas, Servant is still pitching the "same ole same ole" vain and useless arguments. Being a member of the c of C (yet he's a denominational sympathizer), Servant knows that adding instruments to what God has already commanded, that adding what God has not authorized in His command, is a sin, yet his preference for instruments restrains him from acting on the TRUTH.

So Servant ends his diatribe by switching the subject to "unity," claiming that the only way for Christians to have unity is if we "love" each other. Actually, discussing the sin of adding instruments has nothing to do with whether we "love" each other or not, and Servant knows that as well. But it's a typical tactic of liberals like Servant to divert the subject to something else when the liberals know that they have completely lost the argument.

Very well, I'll play along, since we've come full circle with the instruments business anyway; further "discussion" about that would merely perpetuate the Fruity Loop and accomplish nothing more. About "unity," I'll just briefly comment that the only way to have spiritual unity is for all Christians to ditch their smorgasbord of man-contrived, denominational doctrines and follow Christ and the New Testament faithfully as He originally commanded us (Matt. 28:20). In other words, there will never be any unity in the Church as long as the denominations are extant. Furthermore, there will never be any unity as long as denominational sympathizers like Servant within the c of C continue to create havoc and division by endorsing denominational practices like adding instruments to worship.

I recommend that any further discussion of "unity" be reserved for a new thread, which Servant is certainly welcome to create (if the moderators so approve).



 
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Ken Sublett
(no login)
69.19.14.24

Instruments Outlawed

February 2 2007, 10:27 PM 

The word ORGANON is a machine for doing HARD WORK or producing shock and awe.
This includes musical INSTRUMENTS (machines, weapons)
They are for doing ERGON or WORK
Therefore, by definition, a musical instrument and a weapon are defined by the same Hebrew word
A lifeless instrument and a Carnal Weapon have much the same meaning.

Therefore, anyone who uses machines to ENHANCE the effect of the WORD are defined
as legalists: the word is NOMOS which applied to the musical WORK of the Muses
spreading the Laws of Apollo (Apollyon or Satan).

All of the SPEAK words as defined by the known literature excludes
both POETRY and MUSIC (The bible is NOT metrical in the poetic sense)
Therefore, the word SPEAK--for those who depend on language--EXCLUDES music
No one missed that in the unlearned age for almost 400 years.

The word WIZARD or ENCHANTER excludes arosal singing and instruments.
The serpent in the Garden is defined as a Musical Enchanter.
The "familiar spirit" of the Witch of Endor was a musical empty wineskin
it had the same meaning as the NEBEL or PSALTER meaning to "make vile"
and the sounding bronze in 1 cor 13 which were used for witchcraft, warfare
or as a virtual pipe-organ in the theaters.

Jesus CAST OUT the musical minstrels LIKE DUNG and compared that
crooked generation to children in the marketplace or Agora trying to subvert
people into naughty acts.

John identified the singers and instrumentalists in Revelation 18 as SORCERERS
who HAD deceived the whole world. Now, it would be LEGALISM to demand a law
which says THOU SHALT NOT BE A SORCERER using musical instruments. But
the warning against MIND ALTERING in the Old Testament DOES outlaw the
DEVICES used to put the mind into a limp-noodle stage always the mark of effeminacy.

If someone brought a band of whiney-piney, wheezy brother singers into the Physics
class where you came to learn Physicals and deamdad a law which says:
Thou shalt not solicit in physics class we would think that person searching butn
not able to come to a knowledge of the truth.

The writing prophets condemned instruments as both a SIGN and CAUSE of
the Word of God being silenced. The result was that ignorant lambs went to the
slaughter by "IDOL shepherds" whos "instruments" are defined as MUSICAL.
If the evidence is 100% that instruments say to God: "Go away" and we still
demand a law which saith "thou shalt not say to God GO AWAY" then I would
just eat drink and make Mary as the Book of Enoch says of those who were
seduced into choirs and instruments by Satan identified as the CAUSE of the fall.

 
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Tom Brite
(no login)
69.91.67.106

Re: RE: Same Ole Same Ole

February 2 2007, 10:31 PM 

Mike does not visit this site.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(no login)
68.154.165.17

David’s Instruments, Dancing & Creatures vs. Teaching Christ’s Message in N.T.

February 3 2007, 4:32 PM 

Servant:

N.I. (Not Impressed) would probably want to ask you who Mike Dugger is. I know that you have the right to make that assumption. However, based on your assumption, I have noticed the difference in the tone of your conversation with N.I. [assumed to be Mike by you]. Once again you’re being as unkind and frustrated with N.I. as you were in your debate with Mike at Faithsite. Why is that? [So, are you now going to change your strategy—and be kinder and gentler to N.I.—now that you know Mike has not posted here? Max and Tom Brite have said so.]

N.I. has brought up some really good points related to Psalm 150. We all know by now that Psalm 150 is the main passage that has been used not only by your denominational neighbors, but also by some members of the church like you. Whether or not you are aware of it, you think by incorporating certain “borrowed” doctrines from various religious groups [call it “your own conclusion from your own study and research” if you like] that you are achieving your objective for unity and persuade others to join in. No … you are not achieving unity by compromising the truth. Instead, you are fostering division in the body of Christ.

The New Testament speaks of doctrines other that of Christ and His apostles. In fact, we are warned to be vigilant against such, to mark them and to depart from them. Instead, as indicated in your posts, you believe that it is OK to use IM to “enhance” your worship.

Psalm 150:6—“Praise him with the timbrel and dance.” Uh-oh, dancing is mentioned. Do you think that instruments do enhance, but not dancing? Are you evading this issue? Or, do you need more time to study and research this matter? Let us know soon if you think dancing enhances and can be added to your worship program. Or, if dancing does not enhance and should be removed from the list?

Your response to NI’s point about the punk rockers and rappers was laughable. Of course, you have not said anything in your writings about these performers. But NI and many others, by following your logic, could easily make that parallel. You say that there’s no mention in the NT against instrumental music, which to you, therefore, is not condemnable and is not forbidden. Don’t you see your inconsistency? There’s no mention against performances of “praise music” and the like for you or your congregation. Shouldn’t you think similarly that they [the punk rockers and rappers praising] also are not forbidden and not condemnable?

So, according to you, David was so loved by God because of what he was able to do with his natural talent and ability to make lifeless instruments praise God? I see. David was able to “teach and admonish” himself in the “congregation of one” with the musical beat and vibrations. The psalmist David and Servant of today must have something in common relative to musicology. Right? One difference, though, is that Servant who embraces the IM theology is just waiting for his congregation to go IM, even if it’s going to be a painful process and transition. Then, when his congregation becomes partially or fully instrumentalist, Servant can and will freely enjoy “his preferences.”

Interesting that you were asking Mike —“You have a huge youth group there?” Perhaps, Mike could ask you the same question.

    “Servant, do you have a huge group there at your church? What about inviting the punk rockers and rappers to perform praise to Servant’s church’s youth group? The rockers wouldn’t be saying and playing ‘the same old songs’; and they wouldn’t be doing as ‘you have always done it that way’; would they?”

I can tell that N.I. is just “not impressed” with your arguments, but instead posed a number of questions that you weren’t able to answer satisfactorily.

Donnie

 
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Servant:
(no login)
69.59.78.95

Re: David’s Instruments, Dancing & Creatures vs. Teaching Christ’s Message in N.T.

February 4 2007, 2:49 AM 

Thanks Tom and Brite....
It just sounded like him for sure. There are a several out there that think like that.

Oh yea Donnie.....don't look for a response to any of your MANY Pharisee like attacks.
The one I saw that was VERY hyprocritical, but not surprising, went something like...
"No … you are not achieving unity by compromising the truth. Instead, you are fostering division in the body of Christ."
Did you forget Donnie, these proclaimations from you about the church YOU attend?
'look at what is a happening at Madison.'
'Peck's son-in-law, the praise leader, is leading the worship service down the wrong path with the use of microphones....Entertainment instead of Worship indeed'
'the madison marcher has pictured on the front cover member with guitar at tea time'
Did you have amnesisa Donnie?
How about the continuous and numerous attacks on the Elders and ministers?
Aren't you embarrassed to even worship there Donnie?
Can you actually look those members in the eye tomorrow when you see them at Bible study and the worship hour(s)?
Donnie, please feel free to edit this, but THIS site is a blight on the church?
Ask me to be nice again, ok???
Even a lot of the fundamentalists and conservatives feel the same way about this site.
Here comes the BIG ONE Donnie.....I really didn't know nor care that it was Mike Dugger, but hope that you would take it hook, line, and sinker.
You know how Mike and I arugued point after point at Faithsite...and how he thought and complained about my teachings.
EVEN MIKE, a true fundamentalist, is too embarrassed to come here.
He isn't the only one Donnie.


 
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Not Impressed
(no login)
170.141.109.33

The Restoration Plea—Lost in the Change Movement

February 6 2007, 12:41 PM 

Servant:

In my earlier conversation with you, you thought I sounded like Mike somebody because of my reasoning or “lack thereof.” I’m not sure if I should take that as a compliment. I think it is common knowledge that in politics, religion, crusades, etc., folks who still believe in the original consensus, purpose or objective would be thinking along similar or the same lines. This is especially true in the case of the Restoration Movement.

It follows, then, that in the case of the Restoration Movement, the objective or goal or plea was to restore New Testament Christianity; and our forefathers agreed on certain principles and truths such as —— baptism is by immersion only and for the purpose of having sins forgiven in His blood and being added to the church; that the NT church was established by Christ; the observance of the Lord’s Supper; non-denominationalism (not inter-denominationalism); being silent when the Bible is silent, an example of which is the use of instrumental music in the assembly; etc. Are you with me so far? If not, further conversation with you may be futile.

Servant, you may disagree on certain of the above principles. That is your prerogative, and I already gather that from your philosophical views and arguments. But that is not my point. The crux of the matter is that those who still agree on the original objectives, such as the restoration plea, should not be branded as the ones departing or DEVIATING from them. Instead, folks like you who have a different plea—which is to CHANGE things around—are the departing and deviant ones. If you cannot accept that that’s what the trending mission accomplishes, then, further conversation with you is futile.

It appears from your response that you refuse to discuss the specifics in Psalm 150. I fully understand that because while you refer to them as just for argument’s sake, you truthfully do not have validating answers and your inconsistencies surface.

It is also obvious that while you claim to prefer to be in an “a cappella” assembly, you are, in essence, still teaching or promoting the use of instrumental music in the assembly as being OK. You can only convince me that you are NOT doing so by being silent about the issue … or by NOT DEFENDING it when pressed … or by strongly emphasizing that it is ONLY YOUR OWN PERSONAL feeling, opinion, belief or viewpoint.

 
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Servant
(no login)
130.127.130.40

Re: The Restoration Plea—Lost in the Change Movement

February 6 2007, 2:04 PM 

Not Impressed:
And you probably will never be...
And as you say..."If not, further conversation with you may be futile."
And it certainky has been so far and will probably continue to be....
Of all that you said Not Impressed and Never will be, this comes to the forefront....your preferrence of "being silent when the Bible is silent"
That speaks VOLUMES and VOLUMES of what you think. That statement or phrase ALONE shows how tradition matters more than the Truth. You think that by quoting that phrase often enough you and those like you can halt any change in the church. It has nothing to do with Scripturality, just using a man made notion to hold onto tradition. I was raised in a church that believed that, and I questioned it. No one could make much sense of it or explain it then, and you you bring to light the total ineptitude of it.
'Silent where the Bible is silent' eh?
That wouldn't be a spark off of CENI, I gather?
Since we know very little of how the first century church worshipped CENI goes along with your high and mighty 'silent' phrase. You may want silence when it comes to instruments, but then you gather together another phrase of 'generic authourity' to cover any further additions. NOW THESE additions, though not spoke of in the NT covenant for our perusing are ok because they bring about 'orderly worship.' So what is an addition, and what is an aid?
A piano is an addition, right? Wrong!
A PA system is an AID and TOOL, right? Yes, and so is a piano. ( I would have you to refer back to past posts, but we have already done so)
Not Impressed, what it comes down to is this...You don't want change, and you will do ANYTHING to resist it....even to the point where you conjur up man made phrases to do so.
If you don't like it, then go or start a church where there are others who worship as you do. If you decide to stay where you are at then get ready for CHANGE...and quit belly aching about it.
Change IS HAPPENING, and IS SCRIPTURAL.
You spoke of, towards the last of your retort, my options about instrumental music. How about me CHANGING those options to ADD one more.
The church of our Lord Jesus will be STRONG! The same Lord that you and I both claim as Savior will not allow it to be wrecked! Some of the changes that I see are not altogether what I want. As long as they are not anti Scriptural I just may have to live with some of them....and SO WILL YOU.

SPEAK WHERE THE BIBLE IS SILENT, AND BE SILENT WHERE THE BIBLE SPEAKS...ever heard of that one???

Also, I did reply to your accusations of Psalms 150. Perhaps it slipped your eye....conveniently?






 
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