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Not Impressed
(no login)
170.141.109.33

Principle 101aaa — “Silence of the Scripture does not grant permission to….”

February 7 2007, 1:32 PM 

Servant:

How could you not be convinced and admit that you are not keeping your own mission to yourself and, therefore, that you are the one clamoring for change in the church you still claim to be a member of?

In regard to “your mission to add instrumental music,” you are not keeping it to yourself because you are such a busybody by continuing to teach this kind of gospel to others. In fact, you continue to very strongly defend this kind of man-contrived gospel of musical instrumentation in the assembly. Have you ever stopped to listen to yourself and your obsession for “enhanced” worship with a piano “in the background”? Why even stop there? Why not employ an instrumental ensemble or a symphony orchestra? Or, to a lesser extent, the instruments listed in Psalm 150—the sound of the trumpet, the psaltery and harp, the timbrel, the high sounding cymbals, stringed instruments and organs and [let’s not forget] dancing?

Contrary to your viewpoint, “being silent when the Bible is silent” has a lot to do with scripturality. Indeed! It is an important guiding principle in the fact that silence is not a means of granting permission or freely choosing from a list of options manufactured by man. The New Testament is silent in regard to: (1) a grand piano or (2) the hot rockers and rappers performing “praise” music in front of the congregation. In your case, Servant, your human preference is obviously the grand piano. I would venture to say that you would object to the presence of the rockers and rappers. Do you still not see your inconsistency?

Contrary to your viewpoint and negative opinion concerning the CENI principle (for the reader: it’s proof of authority by direct COMMAND [C] or by EXAMPLE [E] or by NECESSARY INFERENCE [NI]) , it is also an important guiding principle as envisioned by the great men of the Restoration Movement. Servant, such principle, unfortunately, does not include your silly, leaky slick argument that the silence of the Scripture grants permission to implement something that satisfies carnal desires—and changing the principle to CENI+ [a.k.a. CENISCD—with the addition of “Satisfaction of Carnal Desires”].

Servant, you keep mentioning a list of elements, including technological advancements that we consider as aids or tools. I am not getting into this again, but you are utterly failing to see the distinction that the piano making melody “from the heart” is PARTICIPATING with you in what you consider “enhanced worship.” Yeah, the piano is making melody from the heart unto the Lord. Of course! Of course!

Yes, I agree that the Change Movement—of which you are an active participant—is alive and well—thanks to you and your cohorts. That’s why this website exists. The oddity of your proclamation regarding the “if you don’t like it” behavior, is that you have that warning ALSO perverted. That applies to you and your supporters.

The ACCURATE declaration should be: “To change proponents, if you don’t like it, then go or start a church from scratch where unnecessary changes do not cause division and confusion. If not, go join the Christian Church of your choice. It already has what you are clamoring for, and then some.”

 
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Servant
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69.59.78.95

Re: Principle 101aaa — “Silence of the Scripture does not grant permission to….”

February 8 2007, 10:43 PM 

Not Impressed:
I see someone to be a bit upset, but then again you should be. Hanging onto man made concepts to hold onto your tradition....your PREFERRENCES.

CENI, by the way, is very helpful in our breaking down the ins and outs of how and what the first century church did, but in the hands of liberals such as yourself it can be down right sinful. You use it not for good, but for benefit of masking your PREFERRENCES as the ONLY right way. It is NOT!
Also, why not take your 'group' apart from the change (as you call it) and be happy with what you like. You could call it a new name....the Tradiditional church of Christ, the Fundamentalist church of Christ, etc., and therefore avoid trouble with the regulars. YES Not Impressed, the REGULARS are the church of Christ. The real church will not take something like 'speak' to each other in songs and hymns... and twist that into sinful interlude for those who accompany that with instrumental music.
If being "silent where the Bible is silent" has a lot to do with scriptuality then please show book, chapter, and verse. I will await your reply.
Again, PREFERRENCE....just as when I say 'speak where the Bible is silent, and be silent where the Bible speaks.
If the Bible gives instruction, then we KNOW what to do. If it does not (such as NOT telling us HOW to sing) then we should use a bit of common sense and a lot of love, like the NT DOES INSTRUCT US TO DO.
LOVE, Not Impressed, rules out your spitting on others' preferrence.

Oh yea, the PA is helping make a melody in your heart also, right?
WRONG!
Oh, and for all your hoopala about punk rockers performing, love will take care of that too. We have already spoken of how a piano played so it COMPLIMENTS the voice. You said, perhaps some strings played softly in the background...good one I say!
I also mentioned, which I am sure you forgot, that punk rock loud music would not be conducive to Praising our God. Hence, you didn't really forget, but alas are just hanging on to old futile arguments, and hence a lack of common sense. Am I getting close?
Let's try it again....
Piano or strings (or perhaps both) played softly in the background to COMPLIMENT the voice (just as a PA does), OR
Playing LOUD punk rock, or head banging music that is so loud and obtrusive that you couldn't worship God in any way.

Yea....I can see where both are similiar....NO NO NO

But again, you aren't making much sense anyway so why not go for broke, right?

Oh yea, and I forgot too Not Impressed.....if you add a piano, then it will lead to an orchestra, then Rock music, then punk rock , then what???
NO again Not Impressed.
Why doesn't it lead to your punk rocking music?
See aforementiond LOVE, and COMMON SENSE principle.
Hey, always feel free to call me a busybody....I appreciate it.
I will always be such for our Lord and God!
You can bank on it friend!!!

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
66.217.161.59

Change Is Happening, but Is It Scriptural?

February 7 2007, 1:39 PM 

Servant said: "Change IS HAPPENING, and IS SCRIPTURAL."

Yes, changes in the Church are certainly happening, but are those changes really scriptural as Servant boldly claims? He doesn't cite any "scriptural" references to support that claim. It's as if whatever man desires to change in the Church becomes "scriptural."

The Bible, however, does mention a few things about "change":

*The Lord does not change (Mal. 3:6). That is, the perfect character and infinite righteousness of the Lord do not change.

*The unrighteousness of man changed the truth of God into a lie, such that God gave them over to their lusts (Romans 1:17-32).

*Our bodies shall be changed from corruptible to incorruptible at the last day (Philippians 3:31; 1 Cor. 15:51-52).

*The change from the Old Covenant of Moses to the New Covenant in Christ, Who made a better testament (Hebrews 7:11-28).

*Believers in the Scriptures behold the glory of God and are changed into the image of God (2 Cor. 3:18).

*A new heaven and a new earth (Rev. 21:1).

*Stay within the bounds of what is written in Scripture (1 Cor. 4:6). That is, do not change, alter, or embellish the Word of God.

*Do not add to or take away from the Word of God (Deut. 4:2; Rev. 22:18-19). That is, do not change, alter, or embellish the Word of God.

These are the scriptural changes that the Bible authorizes; a few remain for a future time. Yet it is evident that those people who endorse and support the modern Change Movement do indeed change the Word by adding to, implementing, and embellishing whatever they desire to God's commands, when God has not authorized those changes. If God issues a command, all things not specified within that command are forbidden; it is superfluous for Him to forbid everything else by name, for He expects us to trust Him at His Word. This is so, because the New Testament clearly teaches the principle that if we add anything more to what God has already specified in His commands, we do sin.

Therefore, as far as the modern Church and the Change Movement are concerned, the unrighteousness of man has changed the truth of God into a lie, and God has given them over to their lusts (Romans 1:17-32).


 
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KEN Sublett
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69.19.14.36

Change: prophesied and DEFINED perfectly just in time.

February 7 2007, 8:45 PM 

It is a fact that God IS SILENT to those who once repudiate His Word: He sends them strong delusions and ALL of the musical words were known to bring on delusions so that the corrupters of the Word (selling at retail) could fool the fools that that feeling--even puking while doing the David dance--could be sold to the Gullible Travelers in say Corinth and strip the men of their living before they could make it to the next ship: Paul marked the MAD WOMEN because history notes that only drunks or gender-bleeds would sing AND play at the same time.

The NIV is a commentary and is loaded PRO music and ANTI baptism because it is the opinon of various pseudo-scholars to make an easy-reading version for PROFIT. The word MUSIC is used only twice in the New Testament: the first would demand singing AND dancing as the Greek for "music" demands. The second speaks of the MUSES in Revelation 18 who along with the instrument players and others are called by John SORCERERS who HAD DECEIVED the whole World. John prophesied of them being UNLEASED in the end times which seems like now since ALL bible-based groups have been taken captive and afflicted by professional musicians. The word psallo is never translated MELODY that I can find. Melody is the Greek MELOS and does not appear in th

Ep.5:19 SPEAKING to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs,
singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Speak..........psalms and hymns and spiritual songs.........to yourselves

SiING and makING melody .........in your HEART..........to God


In English the present participles places BOTH the singing and melody IN THE HEART which is a place: that is because singing is always enchantment or in John's words SORCERY. Melody as in PSALLO is a warfare word MARKING Apollo (Abaddon or Apollyon) who is the "father of the twanging bow to send singing arrows into your heart, of musical harmony, of thieves and of liars. No one used that as proof until the year 1878. And it took a hundred years before people dared used it again to sow discord. It took almost 400 years to quit (in some trouble spots) SPEAKING and begin SINGING to themselves.

Sing and speak are radically different forms of making SOUNDS: The text ALL TEXT reads SPEAK so Paul never said SING PSALMS to yourselves.

Laleo (g2980) lal-eh'-o; a prol. form of an otherwise obsol. verb; to talk, i.e. utter words: - preach, say, speak (after), talk, tell, utter. Comp. 3004.

Logik-os, ( [logos] )
A. of or for speaking or speech, merê l. the organs of speech, Plu.Cor.38: logikê, hê, speech, OPPOSITE to mousikê,
Lego (g3004) leg'-o; a prim. verb; prop. to "lay" forth, i.e. (fig.) relate (in words [usually of systematic or set discourse

Lalia is loquacity in DIALECTS and never GIBBERISH.


You cannot DISCOURSE with music because it "lacks persuasiveness" or as Justin interpreted Amos they THOUGHT that it had an abiding presence when it was just FLEETING PLEASURE. Music goes in one ear and out the other. That is because its driving purpose is to shut down your rational hemisphere so the poison will go down.

Colossians 3 is a parallel statement proving that WORD means SPIRIT because Jesus said 'my WORDS are Spirit and Life' after He said "the flesh counts for nothing." That is why Jesus LIMITED and Paul commanded worship in the PLACE of the human spirit as it meets the MIND OF CHRIST in the Written words of the Living Word.

Col.3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; TEACHING and ADMONISHING one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with GRACE in your hearts to the Lord.

This was the DIRECT COMMAND for the assembly or church in the wilderness when BOTH instrumental and vocal "making a joyful noise before the Lord were outlawed" because the Qahal was for INSTRUCTIONS only and because you cannot REST, READ and REHEARSE the Word of God when someone has stirred up your flesh with a drug-high where music SPECIFICIALLY creates the impulses of FIGHT or FLIGHT. The Greek literature knew it to produce panic or fear.
The latin--where its Rommans 15 radically outlaws ALL of the mental-excitement rituals such as loud speaking, singing, dancing or drama--reads:

Eph 5: [19]WEB loquentes vobismet ipsis in psalmis et hymnis et canticis spiritalibus cantantes et psallentes in cordibus vestris Domino

Loquor

1. [Sanscr. lap-, to talk, WHISPER to speak, talk, say (in the lang. of common life, in the tone of conversation;
A. To speak, declare, show, indicate or express clearly


Erasmus and the TR and the KJV relied heavily on the Latin Vulgate and used the word SPEAK in the place of LOQUENTES which is NOT singing with or without instruments.
Sermo
I.a speaking or talking with any one; talk, conversation, discourse. B. In part: 1. Literary conversation, discourse, disputation, discussion
b. Concr., a talk, speech, discourse (more informal and unpretending than oratio): [Oratio is defined as feminine and as THE primary definition of HYPOCRITE]
2.Ordinary speech, speaking, talking, the language of conversation (opp. contentio) Of prose as opposed to poetry:
3. With reference to some particular object, common talk respecting any thing, report,


Paul didn't PREACH until midnight: the word is DIALOG and elsewhere when Paul teaches the word is COMMUNE. A sermon is a LECTURE a studied least effective and most costly. The message beginning with the serpent which was both phallic and the Musical Enchanter is that music takes away the rational mind so that you cannot doubt people when they CANNOT see words like SPEAK without translating them into MAKE MUSIC. That's the program and there is such overwhelming evidence that it is MUSIC which the BEAST uses to SEAL his own seed: Zoe is called the "beast and female instructing principle" and that is why Paul understood more of the parable nature of Genesis than we do: a parable being a "superior form of speech" and in the Words of Jesus it was to hide the truth from those who did not LOVE truth. That was the CROOKED GENERATION which is defined as the gender-stressed Skolion singers and instrument players to make the wine go down.

 
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Servant
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69.59.78.95

Re: Change Is Happening, but Is It Scriptural?

February 8 2007, 10:55 PM 

I quote Bill Crump...
"*Stay within the bounds of what is written in Scripture (1 Cor. 4:6). That is, do not change, alter, or embellish the Word of God.

This is the KJV of what I Corinthians 4:6. You do like the KJV I understand Bill?
6And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

Now how does THAT Scripture quoted from the KJV compare to what you quoted?
Let's talk about embellishing, shall we?

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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66.19.64.168

Re: Change Is Happening, but Is It Scriptural?

February 9 2007, 1:51 AM 

Since Servant is having trouble understanding 1 Cor. 4:6, and since he would never accept anything I say, I'll quote the commentary from the Nelson Study Bible, New King James Version (1997), about this verse as pertains to "what is written":

"Paul was exhorting the Corinthians not to go beyond the teachings of Scripture. Then they would avoid the pride and divisions that were fracturing their church. A true minister of God's Word will use Scripute to unify and strengthen the church. Only those who want to exalt themselves will misuse Scripture and thus weaken and divide the church."

And here's a commentary from the King James Study Bible (1988):

"Paul is telling the Corinthians not to go beyond Scripture. In other words, learn to live by the Book, and stop following men."

These two commentaries neither add to nor embellish what the verse says. They simply explain it exactly for those who cannot understand the eloquent, formal language of 1611 England.

There are certainly divisions created in the Church today by people who insist on adding instruments to God's command to sing and make melody in the heart, when God never authorized instruments in the New Testament. Such people allow their pride to weaken the Church through their preferences for instruments, which create discord among the faithful who have rightly discerned that it is wrong to go beyond what is written in the New Testament. As I've said over and over again, God doesn't need to forbid instruments by name, because God through Paul in 1 Cor. 4:6 already forbids us to go beyond what God has already commanded. God commanded only vocal music; He did not command instruments in Christian worship. Those who presume to go beyond what is written in the New Testament by adding instruments defy God's command. There's no other word to describe defying God than "sin." It's as simple as that. I'm so very sorry if Servant cannot or will not accept this, but it is what the New Testament teaches.

 
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KEN Sublett
(no login)
66.82.9.92

Speak the Same Things

February 9 2007, 11:22 AM 

Isn't that What Paul directly commanded when he told them to "speak the same thing" by speaking "that which is written" or 'Scripture" using one MIND and one MOUTH? He said that educates, glorifies God, comforts through Scripture and keeps the unity. The Bible is the only resource for "speaking" that a group wanting to be CHRISTIAN has available. Use it or lose it.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
66.19.69.101

By the Way

February 9 2007, 2:50 PM 

I can just imagine Servant denying the two commentaries I quoted, claiming that they were probably written by members of the church of Christ. Of the list of editors and contributors published with each of those two Bibles, not one credential there even remotely suggests membership in the church of Christ. The contributors are theologians from denominational seminaries.

Perhaps Servant should consider 1 Cor. 4:6 from a parallel Bible that puts the King James text beside the New Living Translation (1996). The NLT states:

"Dear brothers and sisters, I have used Apollos and myself to illustrate what I've been saying. If you pay attention to the Scriptures, you won't brag about one of your leaders at the expense of another."

This NLT adds a footnote explaining that "If you pay attention to the Scriptures" means "You must learn not to go beyond 'what is written.'"

Servant is fighting a losing battle here.


 
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Not Impressed
(no login)
170.141.109.33

The REAL “Irregulars” and “Truth Perverts”

February 9 2007, 1:24 PM 

Servant:

Upset? No … the apt statement should be that to churches of Christ (the majority in the brotherhood), it is VERY TROUBLING to see you VERY STRONGLY and STUBBORNLY DEFEND your own personally preferred doctrine regarding “enhanced worship.” There is no telling whatever else you are espousing, teaching and preaching as an elder of your church.

Servant, I don’t know how else to say this in a kinder and gentler tone—but you are apparently deluded into thinking that YOU, as an ardent change proponent-at-any-cost-or-destructive-effect, … that YOU are in the majority of the congregations that do not believe in your acquired tenets. You are NOT in the majority. You are experiencing some very, very serious illusion that the LOUD MINORITY OF YOU, folks [key words are “LOUD” and “MINORITY”], have convinced yourselves into believing. You are “the IRREGULARS” and the “twisters” in the brotherhood—not the other way around.

It is the change agents who are deviating from the Restoration plea and from the Scriptures—NOT the other way around. Here’s a warning for you and your cohorts, Servant. It comes from the Lord—a message to those who obstinately “will not walk therein”:

    Jeremiah 6:16—“Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

Hopefully, the elders at Madison are wise enough to learn from past mistakes. Implementing Servant’s teaching in this matter — which is another change and an unnecessary one — would be another mistake.

 
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Servant:
(no login)
130.127.130.40

Same Ole Same Ole

February 12 2007, 7:03 PM 

Hey Bill:
Let us try THIS explanation for a DIFFERENT commentary (John Gill)
"that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is
written:"
meaning, either in the word of God in general; or in some particular passages of Scripture he might have respect to; or rather in the above places in this, and the foregoing chapter, where he gives the fore mentioned characters of ministers; where, in the apostles themselves, in their own words, from their own account, they might learn, on the one hand, not to ascribe too much to them, nor, on the other hand, to detract from their just character and usefulness: and also, that no one of you be puffed up for one against the other;speak great swelling words of vanity, and envy, for one minister against another; when they are all one, bear the same character, are in the same office, and are jointly concerned in the same common cause of Christ and the good of immortal souls."

So you see Bill it was talking about Paul and others who were thought by some to be high and mighty. Some were still taking sides with Apostles instead of rightly giving credit to Christ. MEN were being puffed up Bill, and Paul was trying to set them straight. Paul never wrote letters saying that he or ANY of the apostles were nothing more than SERVANTS (I like that word) of GOD!

Bill, how you can transcend that to lord over your prefferences is beyond me man. You take that scripture to mean that anything NOT written in the Scriptures is wrong, not authorized! IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT, and never will.
Remember too Bill, that there were only a few written letters to the various churches. You DO realize that they did NOT have the full written Word, as we have it today??? Do you Bill?

Bill, here would be the People's New Testament commenetary on that verse
"6-9. These things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos. I have used the names of Paul and Apollos to illustrate lessons that I wished to impress upon; especially the lesson not to think of men too highly. Be puffed up for one against another. Exalting one preacher and making him a leader, while seeking to pull down another."

Bill, does that sound anything about cleaving only to Holy Writ so as to abuse that verse for dissallowing anything NOT written?
Thank You!

As for you, Not Impressed, nothing to say...sorry to see you upset.
I would but leave you with such a Scripture passage also, not one of negativity as you left for me, but one of Strength of following our God and His Ways....instead of mans.

Joshua 24:15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."

Stay away from what YOU want Impressed, and ALWAYS give it UP for the Lord. It truly is WISE to be a servant, and not clamour for the top. Give always, and don't worry about needing to receive. What has this to do with what we have been talking about???
Everything!!!
Think about it!




 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
66.217.125.70

Re: Same Ole Same Ole

February 13 2007, 12:24 AM 

Yes, no matter how much we look at 1 Cor. 4:6, the words just won't change. Paul's warning not to go beyond what is written in Scripture will always remain and be a stumbling block to those who insist on adding more to God's commands than what He has specified in those commands. "Not go beyond what is written" means just that: Do not go beyond what is written in Scripture. It just can't get any plainer than that.

 
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Servant
(no login)
130.127.130.40

Lets' Try This!

February 13 2007, 10:53 AM 

To not go beyond what is written had nothing to do with commands. It was trying to make sure that Paul's description of himself and other apostle, IN WORDS (letters), was what they actually meant and were to be adhered to. They were not supposed to be following men...the men were there to show the Way of Christ. They didn't want to be thought to be any higher than any other man, even though they had the gifts.
Bill, you just ignored the two commentaries, didn't you?
How convenient, but not surprising!
Again Bill, there will always be those who ABUSE the Word to try and show how their PREFERRENCES should be adhered to, when again it comes down to men wanting other men to follow tradition.
Bill, have you ever heard me use the word PREFERRENCE before?
If you PREFER it done that way, then find you a church that PREFERS it that way.
CHANGE Bill, unfortunately for some, will always be a thorn in their sides.
CHANGE is inevitable. CHANGE is GOOD when those that change follow the Word of God!
Tradiion can be bad when those that follow it try to denouce the changes, based on ABUSING the Word of God because they don't like the changes. PREFERRENCES again!
Remember the parables of the talents?
The one man had the one, didn't try to make anything of it, and in the end was scorned by his master. Hey Bill, in that parable, did the master tell these men how to invest their monies? Were there specific instructions? They used their brains, without instruction, to trust God that He would direct them how to best use that money. Maybe even used a little common sense?!?! Just like a man today uses different ways to glorify God and reach lost souls. He may not do it the same way as another man. He may have had to CHANGE things up! Obviously since both men who did well did not do it the same way (one man did better than the other) that would lend to us thinkging that one PREFERRED one way while the OTHER PREFERRED another way. Wasn't the master happy with both?
BINGO!!!
They BOTH did the work of the master!

Let me leave you with a Scripture Bill...

1 Corinthians 14:36 Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached?

You see Bill, you are not the only person that can understand the Word of God!
Amen and Amen!
Praise God for the Understanding of His Word!






 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
66.19.65.43

Re: Lets' Try This!

February 13 2007, 5:21 PM 

Servant may want to ease up a bit on the histrionics and try this:

Make life very simple by trusting in the New Testament as written. Since God through Paul warns us not to go beyond what is written therein, then simply submit to that warning. Don't presume to second-guess the content of God's commands by adding anything more than what He has already specified therein. Trust in what God actually says, not in what you think He says or what you want Him to say. That's the safest advice available. Take it, and you won't run afoul of God.

 
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Servant
(no login)
69.59.78.95

Re: Lets' Try This!

February 14 2007, 11:28 PM 

I am posting this again for the pleasure of Bill Crump who disregarded these two commentaries....

Let us try THIS explanation for a DIFFERENT commentary (John Gill)
"that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is
written:"
meaning, either in the word of God in general; or in some particular passages of Scripture he might have respect to; or rather in the above places in this, and the foregoing chapter, where he gives the fore mentioned characters of ministers; where, in the apostles themselves, in their own words, from their own account, they might learn, on the one hand, not to ascribe too much to them, nor, on the other hand, to detract from their just character and usefulness: and also, that no one of you be puffed up for one against the other;speak great swelling words of vanity, and envy, for one minister against another; when they are all one, bear the same character, are in the same office, and are jointly concerned in the same common cause of Christ and the good of immortal souls."

So you see Bill it was talking about Paul and others who were thought by some to be high and mighty. Some were still taking sides with Apostles instead of rightly giving credit to Christ. MEN were being puffed up Bill, and Paul was trying to set them straight. Paul never wrote letters saying that he or ANY of the apostles were nothing more than SERVANTS (I like that word) of GOD!

Bill, how you can transcend that to lord over your prefferences is beyond me man. You take that scripture to mean that anything NOT written in the Scriptures is wrong, not authorized! IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT, and never will.
Remember too Bill, that there were only a few written letters to the various churches. You DO realize that they did NOT have the full written Word, as we have it today??? Do you Bill?

Bill, here would be the People's New Testament commenetary on that verse
"6-9. These things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos. I have used the names of Paul and Apollos to illustrate lessons that I wished to impress upon; especially the lesson not to think of men too highly. Be puffed up for one against another. Exalting one preacher and making him a leader, while seeking to pull down another."

Bill, does that sound anything about cleaving only to Holy Writ so as to abuse that verse for dissallowing anything NOT written?
Thank You!

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
66.217.125.193

Re: Lets' Try This!

February 15 2007, 1:30 AM 

More histrionics from Servant. He's doing everything he can to go beyond what has been written in Scripture. Such an erroneouwsly complicated life! Following Scripture as written makes life much simpler.

 
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Servant
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69.59.78.95

The Message

February 15 2007, 11:13 AM 

That's it Bill!
Attack the messenger when you can't pull down the message.
I am sure you took some psychology during your post secondary education, right?
The problem with this Bill is the message doesn't come from me. It comes from God. If you battle my message, you battle God. If you attempt to break me down Bill, then you have to go after God!
You can't win Bill! Ever!
Is that a bit of histrionics too Bill?

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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66.19.64.156

Re: The Message

February 15 2007, 4:19 PM 

The message of 1 Cor. 4:6 is clear and will forever remain clear: Do not go beyond what is written in Scripture. Do not add anything more to God's commands than what God has already specified in those commands. That's an eternal principle the Change Movement will never change, against which Servant will never prevail.

BTW, so now Servant imagines himself as vicar of God ("you battle me, you battle God")? I'm sure there are a number of psychiatrists out there who would love to, as we say, "interview" Servant.

 
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Servant
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69.59.78.95

Re: The Message

February 15 2007, 11:02 PM 

Bill:
Like the saying goes....'speak up and remove all doubt.' I will continue to pray for you Bill, but not continue to post here. This place does not make welcome any other interpretation....and remember Bill, that everyone, YES EVERYONE with sound mind can interpret the Word of God just as you can. That is what makes you grind your teeth. You tell others that YOUR interpretation is only valid, and I say that their maybe other ways to look at the Word beyond what I can describe. You prescribe to the theory of 'our way or the highway.' In the meantime people are leaving the church left and right. Our church of Christ is not one with that type of attitude, which is why we are SOLID for the the Lord. Back to the teeth grinding. We don't do it the 'traditional way' and it angers you. And no, just because we do it differently, however still Scriptural, we will not change the name.

1 Corinthians 14:36 Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached?

You see Bill...you didn't write the Word, and you aren't the only interpreter.

I am writing a book Bill. Would love to send you a copy after I publish it!


 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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Only One Interpretation

February 16 2007, 10:06 AM 

Servant is most correct in that all people, including those of sound mind, can "interpret" Scripture. The problem is that the many different interpretations arise from the preferences and prejudices of man, not from God. A host of different interpretations cannot all be correct. Since Christ intended for His Gospel and the New Testament to be understood correctly, and since Christ preached only ONE Gospel, there is only ONE interpretation, and that is Christ's interpretation as written in the New Testament.

Servant, like many in the Change Movement, claims that what I or any other conservative preach is "my own doctrine, my preferences, my this, my that." He erroneously subscribes to the denominational notion that all different interpretations are valid, that as long as one is "sincere" in his beliefs, regardless of how far they differ and go astray from what is written in the New Testament, then Christ will accept that. Too many people are just not willing to submit themselves to what Christ has set forth in His New Testament. They think that the Word must be embellished, revised, or made "new and improved," lest a 21st-century group of godless entertainment seekers not "accept" it. When we conservatives came along and realized that there could be only ONE interpretation of Scripture, Christ's own SINGLE interpretation as set forth in the New Testament, nothing more, nothing less, the change agents and liberals saw red, and the fur began to fly. It's been flying ever since, and as long as the denominations, change agents, and the Change Movement are extant, the fur will continue to fly. Too many people just do not realize or cannot fathom that they, too, can follow the ONE interpretation by simply following the New Testament as written.

With that, we now say goodbye to Servant and bid him well. We also will still encourage Servant to adhere strictly to the Word of God as written in the New Testament, adding nothing to it, taking nothing from it, and especially not adding anything more to God's commands than what God has already specified in those commands.

 
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stunned
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72.151.189.38

misc.

February 17 2007, 12:29 AM 

First of all, it is amazing that all of you guys spend this much time on this website. Anyone can spend 30 min. reading the postings on this site and come to the conclusion that no one is going to convince the other of his or her point. I realize debate is healthy but if the time that some of you put in this website was directed toward more productive actions such as helping the less fortunate or spreading God's word most of this debate would be moot.

I may not be as eloquent as some of you but I do have my 2 cents to put in. I grew up attending Madison C of C with my family - birth to age 18. I attended church probably 20 times the next 14 years, not because anything Madison did but because I just didn't want to. I and my family have been attending church for the past 6 years. The last 3 at Madison. Yes - Madison! We love it. I still know a lot of people there since I attended regulary for 18 years. The "changes" that have taken place are wonderful. I am so grateful that all of the members that were causing the problems have left. All of the members that are still at Madison realize what is important and can focus on spreading God's message.

Just a few more thoughts. It always amazes me how traditional C of C members(Mr. Crump) will allow some changes that are convenient but criticize others. I asked a close family member who is a strict traditional C of C member about some of the "changes" in her church. She stated that technology changes that improve the worship or make it easier are ok. This same person told me that she hates singing the "new" songs and some of the time refuses to sing them in worship. She told me "I don't know why the old songs aren't good enough for the worship." She does attend a small traditional C of C that hasn't grown in 30 years. I told her that even "The Old Rugged Cross" and "Amazing Grace" were new songs once upon a time. I love the new songs. I also asked her how she felt about I Timothy 2:9(women should dress modestly, with no gold or pearls or expensive clothes). She told me that because everyone dresses up now in today's society that it was ok. I told her that if we are to take everything literally, she should wear Amish clothes to church and no jewelry. She actually quit wearing a large diamond ring to church that she always wears(not her wedding ring). Why isn't wine used in the communion? Because some man felt that drinking wine(even in worship as they did in the early days) was not acceptable so grape juice would be used. As I stated earlier, even traditionalists have allowed "changes" to happen that make worship convenient to suit themselves. I feel that as the world changes, some changes(not doctrine) need to happen to keep God's message fresh. Imagine what a C of C worship service was like in 1910 compared to 2007. Although insignificant changes may have occured(even in traditional C of Cs) the doctrine stays the same.

Although I will never recover the last 2 hrs. I have spent reading these messages and leaving my own, I am glad I did. In closing, like many others have already stated, if you are attending Madison C of C just to report to this website your feelings on how it is so wrong what is happening there, please find another congregation to attend so you can focus on what is really important and not on what you think is so wrong. I can promise that you will feel much better about yourself.

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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