February 2001

Most Madison Church of Christ members were oblivious to this article, “More Holyroller Influence at Madison” in the February "Plumbline Newsletter" which quotes the "Madison Marcher.”

The third worship service at Madison is to be held at the same time as the 10:30 a.m. worship. The "atmosphere will be more conducive to non-Christians. Many “unchurched” people are intimidated by a more formal atmosphere...." The worship affair will be an effort "...to make it easier for people with no church background to feel comfortable.... More time will be given to singing and communion... The sermons will not be as long as what we are used to. There is no question that God is working among our church family. He recognized our suppressed capacity to love…. Attendance for this first Sunday was 538 souls." Jim Hinkle said, "We will not be still, we will not be quiet."

February 2001

The elders announced that a "Third Contemporary" service that they had previously formed was going to be melted into the 10:00 a.m. or second service.

This announcement established a "contemporary service" at 10:00 AM and the 8:00 AM service remained unchanged. While making this announcement, Elder Buck Dozier said the Fire Marshal’s office had said there were too many people in the third service for the size of the auditorium. Since Buck is the past Fire Chief, one has to wonder if this was just a staged excuse to proceed with what was already planned.

February 25, 2001

Tom Haddon is instructing his "Homebuilders" class on how to transition the church members over to the ways of the Saddleback Community Church and that of "Holy Entertainment." He talks about the well laid plans that only a few know about. See the transcript of February 25th class.

March 2001

Praise teams, hand clapping, and raised hands during prayer have been introduced at the second service. Children’s Sunday school has been changed from Bible-based to more entertainment and singing. Young women teaching Sunday school to baptized young men.

April 13, 2001

The elders respond to a NewsChannel5 report about growing controversy at the Madison Church of Christ. They send out a LETTER to 683 Churches of Christ in the Channel 5 viewing area.

"The controversy seems to be over-reaction to change. The main things we have done in the 10:30 service are introduce more upbeat praise songs, give less time to the sermon, and give greater emphasis to the Lord's Supper. This embraces a more contemporary format, of course, but we don't feel that it departs from scriptural worship."

See ConcernedMembers’ Letter to the Elders of 683 Churches of Christ.

April 22, 2001

In this meeting on April 22, 2001 the deacons ask the elders, “What is going on?” On May 02,2001 the Elders reply in a letter. Here Are the Questions and the Elders’ Answers

May 2001

Concerned members receive a copy of a rough draft of a "Covenant of Membership" that was supposedly written by Elder Buck Dozier. Mr. Dozier admitted "playing" around with one when contacted.

The concern about a "Covenant of Membership" is that it's one of the hallmark signs of a "Community Church" like Saddleback. They are generally written in such a way to assure that the membership can't take over the "community church" like they took over your church.

July 2001

According to THIS ARTICLE in the Tennessean, the elders bring in a mediator (Larry Sullivan) to help with the split within the church. We understand that Buck Dozier met Mr. Sullivan while attending a "seminar." Meetings are set up for the elders—we understand they had to swear to secrecy. Meetings are set up for the members to discuss their objections to the split contemporary and traditional services.

It's later shown by the ConcernedMembers that LARRY SULLIVAN is not an unbiased mediator. He has direct ties to the Saddleback organization. He is trained in using the HEGELIAN DIALECTIC techniques to compromise a groups consensus in whatever direction is predetermined.

Mid-August, 2001

By this time many members have left the Church. The unpaid volunteer minister on this particular Sunday abruptly left before giving his sermon at the second service. He was allowed only the last 6 minutes of worship time by the “worship leader.” Sometime during this period, Buck Dozier appeared in Bill Ruhl's adult class to take over. Bill Ruhl's absence was unexplained to the class.

August 29, 2001

Concerned members send out 2500 ballots and a LETTER asking for church members to indicate on the ballot the type of church service format they wanted. All ballots were to be received by September 20, 2001. Threatening phone calls are received by the contractor hired by ConcernedMembers to do the mailing (August 30, 2001). Other notes not full of brotherly love are received by mail. Ballots from ConcernedMembers mailing are tabulated, and totals posted along with a FINAL REPORT (September 15, 2001)

September 23, 2001

The members have been waiting on an announcement from the elders regarding the future format of services at the Madison Church of Christ. Today (09-23-01) that announcement was made.

EVERYTHING WILL REMAIN AS IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

September 30, 2001 (Sunday)

Larry Sullivan was Guest Speaker! (The Unbiased Mediator)

October 11, 2001 (Thursday)

Deacons had a special meeting with an attendance of over 100 concerned members and deacons. Petitions were given out to collect signatures—to dismiss “the elders that have split the Madison Church of Christ.” Petitions are due to be turned in by Wednesday the 17th.

October 14, 2001 (Sunday)

Frank Scott delivered his first in a series of talking head animated and canned sermons. Sometime during this period, two elders resigned—J.D. Elliott and Bobby McElhiney.

October 17, 2001 (Wednesday)

A member reported that Wednesday night when she inquired at the help desk as to where she should turn in her petitions, she was told by the lady: "Over there with the trouble makers … they are the mafia." Sometime during this period two more elders talked about resigning! No confirmation of that as of today.

October 21, 2001 (Sunday)

Sermon—Second in a three-part series of Frank Scott being a talking head for a canned and animated sermon on joy and entertainment. The words "corporate worship" and joy and entertainment were used extensively. Interesting!

Deacons—The deacons, headed by Ben Jones, nicely and in a very godly way asked the leaders to step down and let the church elect new leadership. (Complete transcript is available.)

October 24, 2001 (Wednesday)

”Elders and Deacons” meeting tonight! We understand that the 7 or 8 elders that have caused a split at Madison Church of Christ have been formally asked to step down or be disfellowshipped.

October 25, 2001 (Thursday)

”Saddleback Planters” meeting tonight! Talked about rebuking Ben Jones Sunday!

To rebuke is to criticize or reprove sharply; to reprimand.
To reprove is to criticize for a fault or misdeed; to scold.
To rebuke or reprove Ben Jones, then, Ben Jones must have done a misdeed.
To define that misdeed, those who will rebuke him must find applicable scriptures.

What Ben did was to give each and every Madison Church of Christ member an opportunity to ask for forgiveness or repentance for causing division or for allowing division to occur.

October 26, 2001 (Friday)

Flash message coming in the next 72 hours from the ConcernedMembers!

October 28, 2001 (Sunday)

T H E...M A D I S O N...C H U R C H...O F...C H R I S T...H A S...B E E N...H I J A C K E D ! !

Today, according to an announcement made by everyone's favorite elder, Russ Kersten, the church has been hijacked by all the concerned members, deacons and I guess that includes the 5 elders that have been holding out against them. … Is “hijack” a chargeable offense in the church?

October 29, 2001 (Monday)

We received a copy of a letter sent to the deacons. And we felt compelled to reply. ConcernedMembers announced future plans (10/30/01). The server for this web page has recorded 22,645 page views since its creation 8 weeks ago (11/1/01).

November 2, 2001

Transcript of Homebuilders Sunday School class—a recording of Tom Haddon on how to transition the congregation to Saddleback and Holy Entertainment in Homebuilders Class (available under Interviews & Transcripts).

November 4, 2001

J.R. Compton and wife, members at Madison Church of Christ for 58 years, came before congregation to ask for forgiveness and ask to have their names removed as members.

November 7, 2001

Interview with Gary McDade of the Getwell Church of Christ in Memphis, TN. Discussion concerning the takeover of churches by the "Community Church" movement and the embracement of this movement by many of the Christian colleges.

November 9, 2001

Two different sources say Bruce White has been hired as a new minister.

November 20, 2001

ConcernedMembers retract a letter sent by the elders to 683 churches of Christ.

November 21, 2001

Email from J.E. Choate—“And also another personal evaluation is that Buck Dozier should be the first to leave the Madison eldership. His qualifications for the work is moot at best. His past shows that he is no stranger to igniting church fires with no solutions."

November 28, 2001

The Book: What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?
http://www.concernedmembers.com/thebook/

December 02, 2001

Bruce White appears to have been warmly welcomed as new minister at the Madison Church of Christ. First sermon was about the degrees of love. It appears that the “Praise Team” and their microphones have been turned off in the second service for the time being.

December 18, 2001

Fundraising letter sent out by the Church. Student ministry letter to former members (12/19/01).

January 20, 2002 (Sunday)

Rumor says there is a new group forming called "The PeaceMakers." Their training is probably coming from PEPPERDINE.

January 21, 2002 (Monday)

Letter sent by Donnie Cruz to the elders and other people about the crisis at Madison. The Christian Chronicle publishes article about Madison Church of Christ (01/21/02).

February 4, 2002 (Monday)

We understand that Buck has presented the members of “The Peacemakers" with a list of 192 reasons churches split. We wonder if pagan worship practices were on the list?

February 6, 2002 (Wednesday)

Big flare-up at church Wednesday night. We understand 4 or 5 of the good and godly elders have resigned, leaving the church under the control of the clapper and Saddleback crowd.

February 9, 2002 (Saturday)

After the resignation of two elders last year, Madison Church of Christ was left with 13 elders: Bill Bennett, Dale Bishop, John Broadway, Joe Corley, Buck Dozier, Chris Gingles, Howard Henderson, Tommy Hoppes, Russ Kersten, Charles Link, Ken Rice, Norman Slate, Ray Wilson. Five of these elders had been opposed to the "praise teams" and clapping which had permeated the second service since last February 2001. This was when Elder Buck Dozier first announced the decision to turn the new third service loose on the second service. The five elders that were opposed we believe were: Joe Corley, Bill Bennett, Dale Bishop, Norman Slate, and Charles Link.

It's understood Tom Haddon and about 200 of his followers threatened to leave sometime ago when the praise teams were stopped. It's understood that Chris Gingles encouraged them to stay and fight it out. Recently the Haddon followers put the push back on to bring back the praise teams, through the elders they control. It's understood that the elders had become rather hostile toward each other, and when this push came again, then 4 of the 5 elders resigned. Charles Link was out of town, and it is assumed he will resign when he returns.

Quote as told to Bobby M. Johnson by one of the elders: "... told me that there had been a recent meeting of the 10:30 AM crowd including Chris Gingles’ and Tom Haddon's followers and they said they would never leave. So that with the push to return to the praise teams and the microphones was the “last straw."

The 5 elders had already decided to resign if the “winds of change” didn't subside. So that's that! 3 of these elders also announced that they would probably be attending church at other locations sometime in the future. [No one here blames them, and we can only try to imagine the pain they have been put through. We are sure that like many of us they were unable to continue to worship in that building.]

HAS GOD LEFT THE BUILDING?

ConcernedMembers announce statewide newspaper advertising campaign

February 10, 2002 (Sunday)

Sunday Services reviewed by Donnie Cruz [see earlier “Timeline”]

February 11, 2002 (Monday)

We at ConcernedMembers have been told that when the 4 elders resigned, that they were assured that their letter would be read to the congregation. Well, as you are probably aware ... not only did their letter not get read, there was also no mention of their resignation, other than a little blip in the Marcher. We have been promised a copy of this letter, and we intend to post it on the web as soon as we get it up.

The Elders’ Resignation Letter Is Here [see earlier “Timeline”]

February 2-17, 2002

Announcement by the Elders [see earlier “Timeline”]

March 1, 2002

The Trap Has Been Set at the Madison Church of Christ [see earlier “Timeline”]

In the February 20, 2002 Madison Marcher, statement made by the elders February 17, 2002:

4. "We believe that there can be unity in diversity and will continue to employ two styles of worship services."

March 10, 2002 (Sunday)

Screen presentation of the elders [6 have already resigned] and their length of service helps Donnie Cruz to figure it out:

(1) John Broadway ...... since 1998
(2) Buck Dozier ........ since 1996
(3) Chris Gingles ...... since 1998
(4) Howard Henderson ... since 1999
(5) Tommy Hoppes ....... since 1999
(6) Russ Kersten ....... since 1992
(7) Charles Link ....... since 1978
(8) Ken Rice ........... since 1989
(9) Ray Wilson ......... since 1992

(Most of the Remaining Elders Are ... That Explains It! [see earlier “Timeline”])

March 24, 2002 (Sunday)

Charismatic Contemporary Style Continues: March 24, 2002 [see earlier “Timeline”]

I don’t believe it is all right to be singing “It’s All Right” when the church is not united in spirit because of what this worship facilitation program has done to begin with. It is NOT ALL RIGHT when the body of Christ is suffering….

March 31, 2002

SUNDAY SERVICES—“Easter"

Notes from the “Madison Marcher” (Wednesday, March 27, 2002):

Bruce White: “We are going to have a great day next Sunday. It is Easter, and we [are] looking for a large crowd. I especially want to see the children in the colorful clothes.” Of the “Great Day in May” (May 5): “… will have a big lunch under the tent at 12:00. One of our choruses will entertain at 1:30.”

May 19-26, 2002; June 2, 2002

Changes Continue At Madison [see earlier Timeline]

(1) the present deacons will be interviewed by the elders and new deacons will be named; (2) there will be additional elders to be selected; (3), the "love feast" -- and it's only "fitting" -- is to follow the Lord's Supper; (4) Canaan's Land is moving; (5) the "praise team" will be reinstated in the early part of July.

June 23, 2002 (Sunday)

ELDER CHARLES LINK RESIGNS, and more!

August 1, 2002

Is There a Tithing Pledge in Madison's Future? Donnie Cruz reports, there could be!

September 1, 2002 (Sunday)

Small Groups, Living Stones, or Prayer Circles?

October 27, 2002

TITHING NT Christians for Services of the OT Levitical Priests

We are continuing to monitor the progress of the tithing campaign at Madison as taught by Dr. White, based on the tithing manual (“Take God at His Word”) written by Dr. Kregg Hood. Is the truth about tithing (equals 10%) continuing to be perverted as a CARRY-OVER and as a PERPETUAL command from the Old Testament for New Testament Christians? Since Dr. White proclaimed his message in August 2002 that we TITHE to TEST God and to let Him give the increase, we will be referring to the following amounts collected as being “TITHED”:

==================================================================
Church Budget ----------------- 47,143 (2001) ---- 38,000 (2002)
Children’s Home ---------------- 5,400 (2001) ----- 4,021 (2002)
Amazing Grace/CPI -------------- 3,000 (2001) ----- 1,539 (2002)
==================================================================
TOTAL BUDGET---- -------------- 55,543 (2001) ---- 43,560 (2002)
==================================================================
------------- (Sermons on “TITHING” in August 2002) ------------

November 7, 2002

Transcription of Bruce White's Sermon on Tithing [see earlier Timeline]

VOTE:
Would you be willing to sign a Tithing Pledge?
Would you be willing to sign a Church Oath or Covenant?

January 5, 2003 (Sunday)

DRAMA MINISTRY KICKOFF JANUARY 19 (by Kelley Hughes, Madison Marcher)

Drama is nothing new at Madison Church of Christ. From the Summer Spectaculars to Canaan’s Land … we have a long and great tradition of using drama to touch the lives of our members and visitors…. So Jesus himself used A TYPE OF THEATRE to help get his point across…. You may know of someone who is “UNCHURCHED” … The Drama Ministry kickoff meeting will be on January 19 at 5 p.m. in the Fellowship Hall.

April 13, 2003 (Sunday)

EASTER SUNDAY IN “CANAAN’S LAND” (Madison Marcher: April 9, 2003)

Easter Sunday is very special to all of us. For the last ten years in Canaan’s Land, we’ve used our time together on that Sunday to reenact the last week in the life of Jesus…. Responsibilities will range from … to dressing kids to assisting at the various story “sets” (e.g., HELPING SERVE CHILDREN BREAD AND GRAPE JUICE DURING THE LAST SUPPER [emphasis, d.c.]). All of us will celebrate Communion together as we reenact the LORD sharing it with His apostles and telling them its meaning.

(On May 19, 2003, Chris: “I received a copy of the CD that has the worship service from "Easter" on it. It was given to me by a member of the production crew there. … Was there any preaching? Or just reading?” Jeremy responded: “I do agree with what has been said about the Easter service. It definitely was a show. And most of the people I've talked to about that service say the same thing….”

May 12, 2003 (Monday)

Madison Church of Christ, Incorporated: ONE YEAR LATER

Annual Membership Meeting (Madison Marcher, Vol. 52, No. 19, May 7, 2003):

Because Madison Church of Christ is now incorporated, we are required to have an annual membership meeting. This meeting will be on Wednesday, June 4, 2003, at 6 p.m. in the Auditorium for the transaction of such business as may come before the meeting.

June 4, 2003

Madison Marcher (6/4/03) announces: “Broadway Resigns From Eldership.” Ken Rice, May Chairman of the Eldership, said, “It is with great regret that we have received the resignation of John Broadway. Here is his statement:”

After much prayer and deliberation over the past several weeks, I have decided to submit my resignation from the eldership of the Madison Church of Christ….

June 19, 2003

A comparative analysis of statistics from the 2003 publication of “Churches of Christ in the United States,” compiled by Mac Lynn. The counts, based on the reported numbers in 2002, consist of: (1) membership [assumedly “baptized” believers], (2) average worship attendance, (3) adherents [including children?]. Please notice MCC’s staggering data.

---------------------------------------- Members/Attendance/Adherents
Goodlettsville Church of Christ ---------- 490 ----- 685 ----- 770
Hendersonville Church of Christ --------- 1557 ---- 1323 ---- 2105
Woodmont Hills Church of Christ(*)------- 1660 ---- 2300 ---- 2500
Madison Church of Christ ---------------- 3142 ---- 1786 ---- 4730
Richland Hills Church of Christ, TX ----- 4450 ---- 3700 ---- 5240

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(*) Not listed as “Woodmont Hills Family of God” in the directory
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

July 23, 2003

Madison Marcher: “We are expanding the leadership of this great church.

Terry Ashley,
Mark Street,
Phil Coats

are being added to the eldership today. We are so pleased to see this number grow and expect to be able to service more effectively with these men in place.”

August 6, 2003

Madison Marcher: “The Madison Church of Christ has always had a heart for children and will continue to respond to, assist, and nurture children. We have our camp, youth activities, classes, and other programs for children … Morning Star Sanctuary…. So, we need to support all of these activities through our Sunday School Contribution. The Childcare program … however, will be closed. The State of Tennessee Children’s Services has altered the approach to childcare….”

August 13, 2003

Madison Marcher: “The shepherds are planning a new vision for Madison. They will be listening for awhile and then formulating what the Spirit leads them to envision for this church. Your prayers are earnestly solicited.”

September 3, 2003

Madison Marcher: “We want to encourage both 8:00 and 10:30 services. You will see the designation “traditional” and “contemporary” on our sign and in publication to inform the community of a choice. We hope that both times will see increase in attendance and involvement.” . . . “CALLING ALL SINGERS! The Worship and Music ministry is looking for additional singers. We are especially in need of male singers….” [also appeared in the next 2 weeks].

September 17, 2003

Madison Marcher: “Check your Saturday newspaper and find our new advertisement! . . . ||EVERY SUNDAY||--||Traditional Worship 8:00 am||--||Sunday School 9:30 am||--||Contemporary Worship 10:30 am||--||Evening Worship 6:00 pm|| . . . ||Pulpit Minister, Dr. C. Bruce White||--||Worship Minister, Keith Lancaster||”

September 28, 2003

The message on this Sunday was “Worthy of Double Honor.” It had been announced: “We are planning a very special day on September 28. We will be honoring our shepherds that day.” Former elders (J.D. Elliott, Bobby McElhiney, Charles Link, etc., with their wives) were honored first; current elders, with their wives, were also honored.

October 8, 2003

Madison Marcher: “Please pray for our shepherds. These men are going through some very trying meetings right now. The future of this congregation is weighing heavy on their hearts as they seek the Spirit’s guidance. They need your support and encouragement.”

December 15, 2003

A special e-mail has been received: “… I am troubled by the innovations, because they seem mostly to lean toward entertainment and behavior that I grew up associating with Pentecostal orgiastic ‘worship services.’ I quit going to Tulsa due to this. ...”

December 17, 2003

Madison Marcher: “Keith Lancaster will be taking a sabbatical from Madison for the next several months to spend more time with Acappella. We wish him well and look forward to his return!”

February 4, 2004

Madison Marcher: “A WORD FROM THE SHEPHERDS”

Shepherds’ Vision 2004: The shepherds have spent the last several months focusing on prayer and preparation of a course for the church family at Madison. … We will maintain a traditional worship style in our 8:00 service on Sunday morning and a contemporary style of worship at 10:30. We are interested in accommodating a worship style which connects the worshipper with the Creator … The elders have implemented a functional change in their roles as shepherds. An Elders Administrative Committee composed of … and Buck Dozier, in conjunction with the Business Manager, will handle day-to-day administrative details. The remaining elders will give their “attention to prayer and the ministry of the Word.” The goal of the elders is to “smell like sheep.” … The Deacons Administrative Committee….

We will be searching for a pulpit minister, as Dr. White enters partial retirement. He will continue to work on staff in other ministries. We look for a long relationship with him and Judy.

We will be looking for anew youth minister to lead our program of developing our young people into leaders for tomorrow.

February 18, 2004

“A Little Flavor of Rick Warren’s Saddleback Community Church-ism”—the following was advertised in the Madison Marcher:

27th Ladies Renewal (April 16th-17th, 2004) in Cadiz, KY—

Come share the Love of Our Lord and your sisters in Christ.
”The Purpose Driven Life”
We will use the book by Rick Warren as we study God’s Word

March 10, 2004

Interactive EASTER drama worship—Dr. White announces change in schedule: The drama presentation on “Easter Sunday” will no longer be an event in the “traditional” worship—it will be performed only during the “contemporary” worship.

March 23, 2004

• Announcement on the Church Sign: WORSHIP WITH US EASTER APRIL 11, 8 & 10:30 A.M. … EASTER PASSION WORSHIP DRAMA AT 10:30 A.M.
  
  
• Easter Worship Drama (Madison Marcher, March 17, 2004). “ . . . Easter Sunday [emphasis here and elsewhere, dc] is always a special time at Madison—but this year, April 11th is going to be unlike any worship experience we’ve ever shared together. During our 10:30 service [wonder why not at 8:00 am, dc], the story of Christ’s last hours—culminating in His Crucifixion and Resurrection—will be presented in the form of an interactive worship drama.
  
  Everyone is encouraged to attend this special time of worship
  

April 5, 2004

• FRONT PAGE re “EASTER SUNDAY PASSION DRAMA”: (MADISON MARCHER, March 31, 2004). “ . . . Experience much of the excitement next week as our Easter Sunday Passion Drama plays out at the 10:30 service [wonder why not at 8:00 am, dc] . . . We’ll join Jesus and His apostles in the upper room where we, as a congregation, will celebrate the Lord’s Supper. … This promises to be a very moving, powerful retelling of the Easter Story….”
  
  Calendar: April 11 (Sunday—Easter) … Easter Worship Drama … 10:30 a.m.— ”The story of Christ’s last hours culminating in His Crucifixion and Resurrection will be presented in the form of an interactive worship drama.
  

April 12, 2004

Jim Morris, who began serving as an elder at the same time with Pat Burch and Marty Rothschild in September, 2002, made the following announcement in the Madison Marcher (Vol. 53, No. 13, April 7, 2004), “Statement to Madison Church:” This is not the time for me to serve this body as an elder.

The Preacher Potpourri column in the Madison Marcher has announced the following (4.21.04): “We are adding more elders. We want you to submit names to help in the process. Think through your selections, write his name or names on a piece of paper, and share it with one of our shepherds.”

June 9, 2004

Russ Kersten retires from eldership (Madison Marcher reports).

June 16, 2004

Ray Wilson retires from eldership (Madison Marcher reports).

There were 15 elders at the end of September 2001—10 of whom have resigned since. Is this report . . . troubling?

J.D. Elliott ----------- resigned 10/2001
Bobby McElhiney -------- resigned 10/2001
Joe Corley ------------- resigned 02/2002
Bill Bennett ----------- resigned 02/2002
Dale Bishop ------------ resigned 02/2002
Norman Slate ----------- resigned 02/2002
Charles Link ----------- resigned 06/2002 (… served since 1978)
John Broadway ---------- resigned 06/2003 (… served since 1998)
Ray Wilson ------------- resigned 06/2004 (… served since 1992)
Russ Kersten ----------- resigned 06/2004 (… served since 1992)

Ken Rice --------------- has served since ---1989
Buck Dozier ------------ has served since ---1996
Chris Gingles ---------- has served since ---1998
Howard Henderson ------- has served since ---1999
Tommy Hoppes ----------- has served since ---1999

Jim Morris ------------- resigned 04/2004 (… served since 09/2002)
Pat Burch -------------- has served since 09/2002
Marty Rothschild ------- has served since 09/2002
Terry Ashley ----------- has served since 07/2003
Phil Coats ------------- has served since 07/2003
Mark Street ------------ has served since 07/2003

July 7, 2004

“From the Madison Search Committee” (Madison Marcher)

“Several months ago … two groups appointed by the elders began praying and working toward the goals of hiring new pulpit and youth ministers. [Both committees included an elder liaison, other men as well as women in each.] … Pray that God … will make His will obvious, and that He will bless Tory’s efforts as he seeks out new opportunities [really?]. …

“As announced, our new pulpit minister (once hired) will enjoy a period of transition with Bruce and be fully in place by the end of the year. Our new youth minister will join our existing ministry team and assume Tory’s responsibilities—also by year end.” [cf. thread on Tory Tredway]

July 14, 2004

Madison Marcher’s special report that “Keith Lancaster returns from sabbatical.”

“The Madison family would like to welcome back Keith Lancaster as worship leader. Keith has been on sabbatical, producing two new albums for The Acappella Company. … In addition to working on the new albums, Keith attended the Pepperdine Lectureship in California and led worship at events in Texas…. ‘It is so great to be back with everyone at Madison,’ Keith said. ‘I really missed leading worship here.’

“Keith will teach a number of new songs in the upcoming weeks, primarily in Homebuilders class on Sunday mornings and Prayer & Praise class on Wednesday nights.

“Madison is very fortunate to have men who are able to lead worship and not just lead songs. …Lipscomb University now offers a worship ministry major, showing the growth of this trend among Churches of Christ.”

August 11, 2004

In “Devoted: Come to the Table” (Madison Marcher, August 11, 2004), it is explained that the “last quarter of 2004 will be devoted to communion and table fellowship” … “each family is encouraged to purchase a copy of Come to the Table, by John Mark Hicks….”

In “Come to the Table” (by Dawn Ferguson) …


Beginning September 26, Haddon will be sharing the premises behind Hicks’ book with his class as other teachers are also doing throughout the church. To help with the “revisioning” of the Lord’s Supper, … “Janelle is painting two images for the class that will be before us the entire six weeks we’ll be discussing communion,” said Haddon. “One will be the table. The other will be the altar. She’ll be depicting the things we think of when we think of altar – sacrifice, blood, etc. For the table, she’ll be painting Adam and Eve in the garden in the presence of God – before sin separated them from God.”

Haddon has asked Wells to paint during each class. “Kathy and I are still discussing and praying about what that painting will be,” said Haddon. “Hopefully, it will bring about the overall sense of hope and joy that Hicks believes is symbolized by the table of fellowship.” “… The living host is present at the table eating and drinking with his disciples. … The table on that first Easter, on that first Sunday, was a table of joy and celebration. There was no solemnity, sadness or burdened hearts.” ( Come to the Table, pg. 87)


[“Come to the Table” (“Revisioning” the Lord’s Supper) authored by John Mark Hicks is taught at Madison.]

August 18, 2004

“Madison Has Two New Elders” (Madison Marcher). See the June 16, 2004 list, plus:

John Hagan ------------- appointed August 2004
Jim Wilson ------------- appointed August 2004

October 6, 2004

In “Phil Barnes/Pulpit Minister,” From the Elders (Madison Marcher):

“Before his start date of November 1 [2004] , we would like to share some of our thoughts regarding Phil [Barnes]. … Phil Barnes is that man. We believe he is a God-lead choice whose strengths closely match the needs of Madison….”

October 27, 2004

In “Madison’s newest praise team joins active ministry” (Madison Marcher):

“The praise teams at Madison have been blessed … the Gold Team emerges as Madison’s newest praise team….”

November 17, 2004

The Madison Marcher declares “White Sock Sunday (a.k.a. ‘Sock It Away Campaign’) Success.” In addition to the “regular” contribution, the financial campaign contribution toward “Debt Retirement” was $304,664.67….

December 1, 2004

This month was highlighted by “Your Holiday Events” (Madison Marcher, 11.24.2004) with activities as: “Christmas of Hope” (12/2) benefiting the Morning Star Sanctuary; “Breakfast with Santa” (12/4, Sat.) in the Church Mall [$4 for adults, $2 for ages 3-11]; “A S’mores Christmas Party (12/4, Sat.)—“Parents Night Out—Kids Night of Fun”; “Singles’ Christmas Party” (12/2, Sat., 7-9 p.m., $15 per person at…)—‘Bring a wrapped Christmas ornament to play {Dirty Santa}’; “CHRISTMAS SINGING” (12/19, Sunday at 6 p.m., Bixler Chapel)—‘Start your holiday week with this inspiring service!’

The new pulpit minister, Phil Barnes, addresses his affinity for Christmas: “‘Merry Christmas’ has been replaced with ‘Happy Holidays.’ … It’s so easy to walk right past the manger with our arms full of gifts, isn’t it? … But … the one God sent to all of us wrapped in cloth and lying in a manger … Jesus Christ is Born!” [on December 25]

“What Is The Drama Ministry?” (cf. Madison Marcher, 12.1.2004). “The goal of the drama ministry is to give glory to God through the use of drama declaring, illustrating and clarifying Biblical truth [emph., d.c.]…” using I Corinthians 9:22 [becoming “all things to all men”]; I Peter 4:10-11 [“whatever gift”]; Eph. 6:19-20 [“make known the mystery of the gospel”].

Sounds like misuse of the scriptures. The other “minister(s)” would have been closer to the truth had they quoted one of their own chief ministering change agents:


“Drama works because we KNOW that it ISN'T TRUE. IF the word entertainment does mean to DIVERT one’s attention, to cause to be pleasurable, to cause to be interesting, then that is what we're here to do.”

January 16, 2005

Beginning this Sunday and the following, Phil Barnes, as a strong advocate of the Community Church/Change Movement, delivers sermons such as: “Is This All There Is to It?”; “Shattering the Shackles”; “Remove the Chains”; etc. These are favorite agenda among change movers. See “Timeline, Part VIII” for details.

January 26, 2005

Beginning this issue of the Madison Marcher, Keith Lancaster, the Musical Worship Leader, writes a series of articles on musical worship: (1) “Worship: It’s All About You, God!” [Notice how he “personally” addresses our heavenly Father—a semblance of “Hey, Man!”]; (2) “Worship: Our Great Heritage of Singing” [What heritage?]; (3) “Worship: God-Centered Singing” [What about Worship-Leader-Praise-Team-Centered Holy Entertainment at the Worship Center?]. See “Timeline, Part VIII” for details.

February 16, 2005

The “INTERACTIVE EASTER WORSHIP DRAMA” all over again!!! “This year on Saturday, March 26th at 7 p.m. and again on Easter Sunday during our 10:30 a.m. worship service, we will be celebrating the Easter Story together in an interactive worship drama … attend these special times of worship … when we will celebrate the Lord’s Supper … no … Canaan’s Land … during the Easter Morning worship service.” [This was brought up in “Timeline, Part VIII” for discussion … but unfortunately diverted into other irrelevant topics.]

March 17, 2005

A review of an article, “Phil Barnes/Pulpit Minister,” in the Madison Marcher (Vol. 53, No. 39, Oct. 6, 2004) reveals the obvious path that the church leaders are treading. “The elders composed a list of 15 … matching … characteristics necessary [for] … that man … to carry Madison forward….” What qualifications? “… Sensitive to traditional/contemporary services … Relevant to today’s environment … Team oriented—gets along well with others … People person … Motivator/promoter [of change, d.c.]….” One very keen observer noted the list as being “Bible-starved.”

March 27, 2005

The contemporary assembly at 10:30 a.m. was entertained with the performance of the “Interactive Easter Worship Drama,” but the 8:00 a.m. assembly was “deprived” of the Easter festival [thank you!!!] Note that some of the elders actually participated in the “Worship Drama.” Was “worship” interactive? There was virtually no congregational participation. All the intervening music during the drama was performed by the “worship leader” [in a “priestly” white robe] and his minstrels. However, the audience participated in the long applause at the conclusion of the worship drama.

April 10, 2005

There was the “combined worship service” at 10:00 on this “Madison Family Day.” The “worship leader,” and his Praise Team and handclappers were in their best behavior. The atmosphere was reverential; the Praise Team members had to hide their microphones; the other cheerleaders proved that the clapping hands have no vocal cords. Congregational singing was evident on this day.

Well, unfortunately, all of that was only transient. On the Sunday following, of course, the “charismatic” behavior of some and the concert-like environment did quickly return. (Please read the article in Part IX titled “The Sunday I Was at the ‘Christian’ Rock Concert.”)

May 18, 2005

Announcement of “New Adult Sunday School Classes Beginning in June” including:


• (a) HomeBuilders [popular among denominations] now called LifeBuilders with both men and women teachers [
  — …
  — Terry & Susie Ashley
  — Rob Wells and Leanne Shelby (female Youth Minister)
  — …
  — Madison’s Praise Team (male and female choir members)];
  
• (b) Single Mothers Class; and
  
• (c) Serving Singles.
  
  

June 1, 2005

Again, a repeat in 2005 of Rick Warren’s “church growth” scheme’s special feature—incorporating. Announcement—“NOTICE TO ALL MADISON CHURCH OF CHRIST MEMBERS: We will have our annual corporation meeting on Wednesday, June 1, 2005 at 6 p.m. in the Main Auditorium. Buck Dozier will be conducting the meeting”

June 8, 2005

Kay Nickell writes in “Remembering Dad” about Russ Kersten, elder, and his illness and death.

June 29 2005

In the preceding Timeline thread (#10), someone was asking about Keith Hall, the male “Youth Minister”—and Tory Tredway’s replacement. Many people have wondered to this day how and why Tory lost his job. [Hush, Tory wasn’t the singy-clappy charismatic kind of guy. Young … but he did not meet the “contemporary” standards.] There are a few posts in the thread about “Tory Tredway.” Check the Page 1 Index for this thread last-dated March 4, 2005.

August 10, 2005

“David Billingsley and Steve Smith … were ordained as Elders on August 7, 2005” [Marcher, 8.10.05]. “Marty Rothschild has been assigned to work with Steve as his mentoring Elder” [Marcher, 8.17.05].

August 17, 2005

In “To the Elders and Members of Madison Church of Christ,” Howard Henderson writes—“I indicated to the Elders at our Spring Rereat that upon the installation of any additional shepherds, I would be bowing out of this role.” [Marcher]

September 7, 2005

“Madison Welcomes New Lipscomb President, Randy Lowry”—“… will be preaching … on September 25th … founder of the nationally-recognized Straus Institute for Dispute Resolution and was a professor of law at Pepperdine University in Malibu, California.”

September 14, 2005

Phil Barnes writes re: the Hurricane Katrina relief efforts—“In consultation and agreement with the elders, I committed our congregation to provide a week of relief help for the Red Cross Shelter that is being established at Two Rivers Baptist Church.” [Marcher]

October 26, 2005

Preparing for the Christmas Drama—“A Christian Carol.” “As Phil announced … we will be doing a full-length Christmas play this year. The dates for the production will be December 17th and 18th (Saturday and Sunday) at 7:00 p.m. each night. The play is an adaptation of the Dickens classic “A Christmas Carol” which we are calling “A Christian Carol.” Why are we doing a Christmas drama? … Using drama, we can break down defenses and are often able to get people to come to a performance [emph. d.c.] who might be intimidated by a regular church service…. If it is God’s purpose to use this drama to reach the unchurched in our community, Satan will try to put obstacles in our path. … Once again, we ask that each of you be praying over this play….”

January 25, 2006

Financial Report of the Saints’ Collection (cf. Marcher)

Expenditures:
--- Personnel Wages -------- 865,688,66
--- ------ Benefits -------- 167,308.31
--- ------ Counseling ------- 42,398.00
--- ===================================
--- Wages & Benefits ----- 1,075,394.97 = (36.51% of Receipts)
--- Benevolence ------------ 124,191.07 = (04.22%)

2006 Wish List: New Church Sign ----- 55,000.00
--- Media: Video Projector ----------- 8,000.00
--- --------- Time Base Corrector –--- 2,000.00
--- --------- Projection Switcher --- 20,000.00
--- --------- Pro Tools Software –--- 12,000.00

March 26, 2006

Job Announcement—“… That growth has led us to a wonderful opportunity that your Shepherds are excited to share with you. It has been decided to add a new position to our Ministry Team, an Associate Minister of Community and Family Development. This crucial role will primarily deal with coordinating our volunteers in our many ministries, coordinating our efforts to assimilate new members, and coordinating our Small Group ministry. … As a family of believers, your Shepherds ask you to agree to pray for this decision and this process, and that God will send us the man He has already chosen.”

Is the above announcement of a job for “just the right man” [not “woman”—this has been verified ] one more indication of how an incorporated church operates and functions? It’s been about three months. Perhaps missed … please notify us if God has sent “the man He has already chosen.”

_______________________________________

Quoting Phil Sanders:

“Entertainment settings should not be regarded as periods of worship. … There is no harm in clapping with appreciation for the entertainer, but clapping in worship seems to take the focus off of God and put it on the performer. To be caught up in the skill of a performer and to lose sight of God dilutes and cheapens worship. The rock star status accorded to some entertainers has little place next to the cross. In worship the focus must be on praising God, not the skills of men. Worship put on for show is clearly condemned in Scripture (Matt. 6:1-18; 23:5-12). … The recent blurrings of these distinctions [between entertainment and worship], coupled with the exposure to so many denominational worship services on television, services which feature professional performers, has created the confusion.”

_______________________________________

NOTE: Prior posts to this thread have been archived here. This is done to keep the loading time down and to ensure that all messages in the thread can be viewed. Thanks.

Archives 1
http://www.concernedmembers.com/forumarchives/madison/021126.html

Archives 2
http://www.concernedmembers.com/forumarchives/madison/021024g.txt

Archives 3
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?forumid=150389&messageid=1027181246

Archives 4
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Archives 5
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Archives 6
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Archives 7
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Archives 8
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Archives 9
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Archives 10
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?forumid=150389&messageid=1115534555

————————————————————————————————————————
QUOTED FROM AN E-MAIL: [[[[[… I am troubled by the innovations, because they seem mostly to lean toward entertainment and behavior that I grew up associating with Pentecostal orgiastic "worship services." I quit going to Tulsa due to this. ... ]]]]]
————————————————————————————————————————

———————————————————————————————————————
Combined 8:00AM and Contemporary (10:30AM) Attendance

..... Recent stats are taken from the Marcher/worship program
..... All figures below include 300+ from the EXT dept.[?]
..... Sunday School Drive on October 19, 2003
..... “The Passion…” Movie Drive in February-March, 2004
..... Interactive Worship Drama (“Easter Sunday”) in April
..... Baby Day Celebration around first Sunday in May
..... Great Day in May
..... Memorial Day Service in last part of May
..... Madison Family Day (Combined at 10:00 in May or June)
..... Transition: Bruce White out; Phil Barnes in (Oct-Dec, 2004)
..... Membership Records for 2002 (Madison Marcher, 01.22.03):
..... __________ 1863 Family Units
..... __________ 4574 Attenders/Members
..... __________ 76 Baptized
..... __________ 124 Placed Membership
..... Membership Records for 2004 (Madison Marcher, 01.10.05):
..... __________ 1633 Family Units
..... __________ 3629 Attenders
..... Membership Records for 2005 (Madison Marcher, 01.25.05):
..... __________ 1675 Family Units
..... __________ 3514 Attenders/Members
..... __________ 30 Baptized
..... __________ 109 Placed Membership

———————————————————————————————————————

=====================================================
2001 JANUARY 3000+___3000+___3000+___3000+
2001 FEB ______ ____________________________
2001 MAR ______ ____________________________
2001 APR ______ ________2525____________2303
2001 MAY ______ 2498____2675____2403____2348
2001 JUN ______ 2355____2558____2543____2371
2001 JUL ______ 2531____2508____2428____2306____2386
2001 AUG ______ 2177____2375____2297____2161
2001 SEP ______ 2163____2335____2577____2096
2001 DEC ______ 2148____2008____2039____2134____1985
=====================================================

2002 __________ [no stats available]
_______________ [NOTE: 2002 census shows MCC with—
_______________ 3142 members;
_______________ 1786 in worship attendance;
_______________ 4730 adherents]

=====================================================
2003 JUL ______ ________________1483________
2003 AUG ______ 1702____1759____1726____1742____1732
2003 SEP ______ 1782____1722____1629____1498
2003 OCT ______ 1681____________2028____1643
2003 NOV ______ 1708____1664____1526____1637____1596
2003 DEC ______ 1554____1534____________1557

=====================================================
2004 JAN ______ 1725____1712____1640____1715
2004 FEB ______ 1746____1606____1608____1647____1816
2004 MAR ______ 1819____1718____1738____1698
2004 APR ______ 1630____2697____1628____1733
2004 MAY ______ 1639____1748____1605____1713____1686
2004 JUN ______ 1648____1629____1660____1781
2004 JUL ______ 1691____1633____1797____1639
2004 AUG ______ 1678____1637____1773____1851____1771
2004 SEP ______ 1640____1728____1715____1661
2004 OCT Trans. 1687____1660____1630____1660____1617
2004 NOV Trans. 1695____1663____1833____1796
2004 DEC Trans. 1816____1761____________1491

=====================================================
2005 JAN ______ 1699____1845____1819____1628____1823
2005 FEB ______ 1893____1844____1917____1953
2005 MAR ______ 1903____1983____1731____2416
2005 APR ______ 1736____1822____1750____1731
2005 MAY ______ ________1900____1757____1800____1652
2005 JUN ______ ________1685____1728____1717
2005 JUL ______ ________1785____1745____1769____1683
2005 AUG ______ 1881____1823____1772____2128
2005 SEP ______ 2014____1917____1854____1915
2005 OCT ______ 1637____1784____1811____1773____1794
2005 NOV ______ 1798____1763____1766____1621
2005 DEC ______ 1797____1729____1766____

=====================================================
2006 JAN ______ 1641____1924____1880____1808________
2006 FEB ______ 1878____1833____1560____1927
2006 MAR ______ ________1773____1646____1657
2006 APR ______ 1697____1859____3206____1795____1829
2006 MAY ______ ________1900____1955____1710
2006 JUN ______ 1770


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Message from a "former ‘worship leader’"
May 29 2005 at 6:46 AM

I must share this special message from someone who is highly knowledgeable about the CCM Movement. In fact, he has written a book published by Evangelical Press, “Why I Left the Contemporary Christian Music Movement,” now on its 13th printing. I have been granted permission to post this personally treasured e-mail from Dan Lucarini:

________________________________

-----Original Message----- From: Dan Lucarini [danlucarini@msn.com] Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2005 7:29 PM To: donniecruz@msn.com Subject: Contemporary Worship Choreography-Made for TV or "the Audience of One"? Hey Donnie, I see you are still stirring up the 'worship' hornet nest! So am I. As a former worship leader, I knew exactly what the order of service you printed means. I chuckled at the 'VCC' (verse-chorus-repeat chorus). At the same time, seeing it again made me realize afresh how trite and manipulative is the entire exercise of 'planning worship'. There's an interesting book out called Worship: The Simple Mystery by Dan McGowan (friend of mine). It should have been titled 'confessions of a current worship leader'. Dan recounts the time a professional worship consultant came to his Evang Pres church and taught the worship team how to fake the sincerity. He also laments the professionalism that has taken over Sunday mornings. Our contemporary worship friends are caught in a dilemma of their own making. On one hand they tell us we have to abandon the old, dead, lifeless forms of worship where people do the same thing over and over again, and there is no spontaneity allowed. On the other hand, these same people rigorously program their own worship services with lots of little manipulative entertainment tricks like those in your article. Spontaneity always degenerates into ritual, whenever men devise their own ways to worship the gods. But where there is spiritual worship in truth (John 4:24), ritual cannot take control. Blessings in Christ, my fellow soldier. Hope to meet someday Lord willing. Dan +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Contemporary Worship Choreography—Made for TV or "the Audience of One"? Donnie Cruz http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=150389&messageid=1116403970

________________________________

Donnie

Donny,

That is a great letter. It hits at the heart of this issue.

No matter, what it comes down to is that those who lead publically (whether their title is song leader, worship coordinator, or worship leader) HAVE to make sure it is not about them, rather that thier efforts are focused on praising God and uplifting thier fellow brothers and sisters.

Again, the beauty of Christ's message is it's simplicity. Christ stripped away the cumbersome and very physical ways that God was worshiped in the Old Testament.

I have said it before in other posts, I don't need a building to worship with other christians. I don't need a guitar, a projector, a microphone, or a songbook. All I need is for us to come together. I don't care if it is in the middle of a ranch in West Texas, in Texas Stadium on the Dallas Cowboy's Star, or on the international space station. Whereever we christians gather, God is with us and we can praise him with our voices, we can uplift one another.

In another post, Keith Lancaster’s father-in-law had this to ask me:

“Were you there a few weeks ago when the traditional and contemporary met together at Madison..no praise team..just blended voices..Keith was so proud..Voices being lifted up to our Lord is his agenda..not waving arms..It's not about him...It's about using talents to make the worship service complete in a professional way...”

Keith “using talents to make the worship service complete in a professional way”? What an astounding remark concerning the “gathering of the saints”! Would not one want to question just about every word in that remark? Talent—is a natural gift from God, not to be mistaken for one of the spiritual gifts. “To make” negates the spontaneity within the context of “in spirit and in truth.” Just what is a “worship service”? When do we arrive at the worship service being complete? Does “in a professional way” resemble made-for-TV worship?

OK, Keith’s relative was referring to that special day called “Madison Family Day” on June 4, 2006. The “worship guide” did not occupy a separate page for the “First Worship, 8 a.m.” and a different page for “Second Worship, 10:15 a.m.” Instead, there was only the one page as intended as follows:

Madison Family Day — Combined Worship

The Great Commands . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Keith Lancaster
Down To The River To Pray [notebook #63]
Video: “God’s Family at Madison”
Love Feast
Come We That Love The Lord #111
All Hail The Power Of Jesus’ Name #19
Great Are You Lord [notebook #9]
It Is Well With My Soul #345
Christ We Do All Adore Thee #90
Communion. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Buck Dozier
Contribution . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Buck Dozier
Blessed Be The Lord God Almighty [notebook #101]
Shout To The Lord [notebook #11]
How Great Thou Art #226
Prayer . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Steve Smith
Message: "The Importance of Family". . . . . . . Phil Barnes
A Shield About Me [notebook #130]
Love Offering. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Phil Coats
Shepherd’s Prayer. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . John Hagan
We Will Stand [notebook #50]

What occurred on this day:

• Church Records Sunday, June 4: [as reported the following Sunday]
  
  Regular Contribution = $40,016.20
  First Sunday Love Offering = $21,248.00 [to cover Vision 2000 project indebtedness]
  Attendance = 1770
  
  Compare this with attendance stats at top of this thread. There were many empty pews in the balcony, and the combined crowd on this day did not match what used to be the crowd during the original [second assembly at] 10:30 a.m. alone.
  
  
• The “Combined Worship” was led by elders, the minister, and “Worship Leader”
  
  
• Yes, there was a mixture of both: (1) hymns and (2) contemporary praise songs—of course, to appease the visiting “traditional” group from the 8:00 a.m. period. “Keith was so proud,” as his relative mentioned earlier. Why shouldn’t we see that … hmmm? He was “in control” as he directed “the congregation” into God’s “holy presence” as the “Worship Leader.” And that was “his agenda.” He certainly used his “talents” to make the “musical worship” really “complete … in a professional way.”
  
  
• ”No praise team”? Uh-huh … Keith’s “Praise Team” was there! Whether or not the 16-member choir occupied the two front rows, whether or not the 16-member choir was interspersed in the auditorium—that was not the determining factor for their seeming absence. They were there! The truth of the whole matter is that the “Worship Leader” knew beforehand that the use of handheld microphones by his performers would be a colossal issue among the visiting “traditionalists.” Wise as a serpent … right!
  
  
• Speaking of microphones and performances, congregational singing that churches of Christ are known for was restored in a heartbeat. The congregants sang their hearts out—“like it used to be.” [The sad part is that congregational singing is evident at the 8:00 a.m. assembly; it is also evident once a year during the “combined worship” on “Madison Family Day.” But at the “taken-over” 10:15 a.m. assembly where the “Praise Team” is present, the choir members dominate the singing (performances) with their microphones.]
  
  
• The solemn atmosphere was marred by the extremely “charismatic” rendition of “How Great Thou Art” that was led by __________ [don’t recall the leader’s name]. Not so much with the singing of the song itself as [because of how it was led] what occurred at the end of the song—a thunderous APPLAUSE [clap-clap-clap-clap-clap-clap-clap … plus more clap].
  
  
• Although it was at the end, the solemn atmosphere was also marred by “We Will Stand”—there was a solo [lead] performance in the beginning of the song, followed by the “holding hands” ritual: “You’re my brother; you’re my sister; so, take me by the hand”—a forceful cued directive from the “Worship Leader.”
  
  

Quit pretending, Keith. Exterminate your Praise Team and performing. Who knows just when the wall between the “traditional” and the “contemporaries” might be ridden? It’s all up to you! God is not deaf that microphones are needed. Let the congregation sing—not the Praise Team singing to and for the congregation.

Donnie

P.S.: While singing the contemporary musical pieces, the Praise Team had a more difficult time being heard—they did not have the microphones [he-he-he]—in this case the singing of the about-to-be-extinct hymns turned out much better than expected … the contemporary pieces that were unfamiliar to the visitors were no comparison.

Dear Bro. Donnie,

Why do you focus so much attention on
outward appearences instead of the heart?
Could it not be that the worship leader
and the worship team have a genuine love
of the lord. Please, I would encourage you
to once lift your arms to the Lord (I Tim.
2:8) or close your eyes and sing the praise
songs with the congregation. Don't focus on
the externalities of the worship team, but,
close your eyes and be enraptured in the Spirit.
It is so free and so right if you would give it
just one try.

Thank you,

Wordkeeper

Donnie,
This person Harry has asked you some good questions. You couldn't answer any of them with truth or intgrity. They all expose you as an angry person who has no reason to hate the church he still claims to be a member of.

One part in particular interested me:


Harry: “Could it not be that the worship leader and the worship team have a genuine love of the lord.”

Answer: First, the Scripture does not recognize “the worship leader” nor “the worship team.” Neither do I. Where and how did you arrive at these concepts? Besides, “genuine love of the lord” is not the issue, and it’s not my place to question or prove such.


Come on, you can do better than that can't you?

No, scripture doesn't recognize a worship leader or worship tem. Let me guess???? That means they are prohibited right? Let me also guess. You're not oposed to church buildings, youth ministers, communion the way we do it, invitation songs, announcements, microphones, song books or even "placing membership" and becoming a member of a church, are you? BUT- that somehow doesn't make you a hypocrite, does it?

I hope you change soon, because your heart can't take much more. You're too young to die of a heart attack. That's not right to do to your family.

I love to see those who had Bible Ridicule Nadab-Abhiu 101aaa! Only thing is, Paul attended Bible Literate 102 and TRUMPS the preachercators by writing Romans 1 and Hebrews 12 He warned about the MUSICAL IDOLATRY at Mount Sinai in Romans 10 and 1 Cor 10: that's why the hew Je Zeus (hail Zeus) ON THE DOLE preachers hate the "Epistles of the Apostates" in their clear written contempt.

AND Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the Lord, which he commanded them not. Leviticus 10:1

1 And Nadab H5070 and Abihu H30, the sons H1121 of Aaron H175,

• took H3947 either H376 of them his censer H4289,
  
• and put H5414 fire H784 therein H2004,
  
• and put H7760 incense H7004 thereon H5921,
  
• and offered H7126 strange H2114 fire H784
  
• before H6440 the LORD H3068,
  which H834 he commanded H6680 them not.

They did FIVE THINGS when God had been SILENT. But, what harm did they do? Not a single thing: the lesson was that GOD has the right to COMMAND and if He has not commanded then God is SILENT and if you PRESUME in the face of an infinite God you simply are NOT suitable material to move on to the Spirit World where body worship is not possible. God had NOT commanded incense or anything which Moses and Aaron had NOT ALREADY DONE. Neither was this God's APPROVED SYSTEM OF WORSHIP but was the beginning of the LAW which was ADDED because of MUSICAL IDOLATRY. God NEVER SAID: "Thou shalt not rise up to PLAY in musical idolatry." He had given THE BOOK OF THE COVENANT which did NOT command any form of RITUAL as LEGALISTIC.

Those who quit being driven mad by "sanging" know that God had already turned them over to "worship the starry host" (Acts 7 etal). Now, God turns them over to Azazel which is the Scape Goat by which they actually had to give credit to one of the Fallen Stars or wandering stars. He along with the others personified in the Jubal band were taught how to HANDLE musical instruments meaning "without authority." Eve or Zoe was held to be that TEACHER of bad things. The SHE-GOAT is called NICO (as in NICO or NIKE "winged victory") TRUMPS the LAID Laity! She is the constellation AIX or CAPELLA! WOW. The Judas Goat!

The Qahal or synagogue or church in the wildernes were commanded to REST, READ or REHEARSE the Word which the elders would have in their HOLY SPIRITS. This excluded instruments and "making a joyful noise before the Lord" which was the WARRIORS chant. You remember that Moses identified TRINITY-MUSICAL-IDOLATRY when he said: "IT IS SINGING THAT I HEAR."

Jesus said that worship is in the PLACE of our own SPIRIT. Paul said that they worshipped IN THE SPIRIT as opposed to IN THE FLESH because OUTSIDE there be DOGS. These were the musical wailers called CYNICS who were sending the WOLF signal to try to find a PARTNER for homosexuality. Paul defined the SYNAGOGUE which excludes SELF-PLEASURING which excludes any form of singing. Revelation says that John was IN THE SPIRIT on the Lord's day and not SANGING. Revelation also defines the speakers, singers and musicians of the Harlot Church as SORCERERS. That is why the DOGS and SORCERERS are not and will NEVER enter the kingdom which is spiritual.

Paul DEFINED the synagogue where we are commanded to worship by his ONLY worship word which is to GIVE HEED to the WORD of God "as it is written" meaning "Scripture." He defined and practiced NOTHING else where He assembled or synagogued the group: he did COMMAND the Lord's Supper which Jesus instituted. Singing, Giving, Preaching or LISTENING to sermons were ALL about 400 years to late to be CHRISTIAN: The Catholic Encyclopedia says that they were COMMON TO ALL PAGAN CULTS and so the NON-Christian "bishops" now being paid by the STATE added them.

For Instructions about SPIRITUAL WORSHIP (Which the Temple did not involve) People would wait from Moses to Jesus before God again spoke FACE TO FACE:

See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: Heb 12:25

Whose voice then SHOOK the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet ONCE MORE I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. Heb 12:26

And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the REMOVING of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken [a trumpet-like word] may remain. Heb 12:27

Wherefore we RECEIVING a KINGDOM which cannot be moved, let us have GRACE,

whereby we may SERVE God acceptably with REVERENCE and godly fear: Heb 12:28

For our God is a consuming fire. Heb 12:29

Here Paul points to Nadab and Abihu and in Romans 6 he identifies the PRODUCT of silencing the WORD of God by the use of SINGING which Moses identified as MUSICAL IDOLATRY.

NO ONE can accompany the individual PRIEST come "BOLDLY BEFORE THE THRONE OF GRACE." The TYPE of the Holy Place PROVES that any singer or musician who TRIED to enter into the church as ANTI-TYPE would have been instantly executed. Nay! Not even to clean out GARBAGE in Hezekiah's Plague Stopping sacrifice.

Donnie, you say the Scriptures do not recognize a worship Leader or praise team. I assume you mean by that, the Scripture doen not mention them. I don't know of anyone who would argue that. I find no mention in Scripture of a Song Leader, prayer leader, one person making announcements or a prayer leader at the communion table. What place any of these played in the early church we don't know. Then to what degree should any of these be used in the worship assembly?

I think Paul's instruction would apply here " Let all things be done decently and in order, and to edify. 1Cor.14:26,40.
One song leader, prayer leader or any other leader is worth anything only if it helps the church in its corporate worship. Remember, when we come together as a congregation we are not alone. We are a community. I trust that those who are planning how our time together will be used, take into consideration how each song, prayer, sermon, communion time will bring glory to God;( God must be pleased first), how each person can be encouraged to participate to the fullest degree; (though we worship as a community, God is interested in each Christian's worship) no one can worship for another period. Yes, each person should be able to say, It has been good to be here. A christian should feel good when its all over but that is not the main consideration. We should feel good because we have done what He is pleased with.
When a Song Leader is leading a group of people in singing praises to God he is leading in worship. When a person is leading a group of people in prayer, that person is a worship leader. When someone gives words that help us focus around the Table, that person is leading in worship. When someone leads us in a study of Scripture, that is a worship leader (you may call it what you may).
No Song Leader should lead songs that would lead the congregation in the wrong direction. No one leading a prayer should pray in a way that the congregation cannot follow,(not a time for private prayers), no one serving at the communion table should take the congregation off in a direction other than to focus on the death, burial and resurrection and return of our Savior. The sermon should not be a discourse in pop psychology but directing minds into a serious study of God's revelation to us. Yes, it should be revelant. Preaching to the church in another State or down the street in another building won't help. Its also not a time for the preacher to whip the congregation. The gospel is GOOD NEWS!!!
Every person should ask themselves, am I worshiping God or am I going through the motions. No one can answer for you. God bless............RayPippin

The direct command in Romans 15 was against SELF-pleasing. This included anything which would create the "creation of mental excitement." That is the REST Jesus died to give us from the laded burden which was "the creation of spiritual anxiety by religious rituals." The REST of the "church in the wilderness" and the REST word Jesus used means to STOP the singing, playing or any of the religious rituals claiming to bring about a WORSHIP experience.

The synagogue, ekklesia or church was to TEACH the Word. This is in the hands of the elders as the only Pastor-Teachers who must "teach that which has been taught.

Prophesying is TEACHING if you repeat what God has said or Paul has delivered. Paul defined prophesying CONTRARY to the musical prophesying of paganism. One might desire a gift but those are given to certain people. There is no evidence that those still CARNAL had a single supernatural gift. Therefore, they should spend their "warm feeling" on TEACHING which is RATHER or INSTEAD of a gift. Verse one proves that prophesying in the TRUE sense did not require a spiritual gift:

1 Cor. 14:1 FOLLOW after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

1 Cor. 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

1 Cor. 14:3 But he that prophesieth SPEAKETH unto men to EDIFICATION, and EXHORTATION, and COMFORT.

That is what Jesus exampled, Paul commanded in Romans 15, what Paul commanded Timothy to do, what Paul did out on mission and what the historic church did before music was added "because it was common to ALL pagan cults."

1 Tim 4:12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.

1 Tim 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

This fits the synagogue Jesus endorsed which "had no praise service." If you teach that which is written then even in the synagogue a schoolboy might read: the OVERSEER literally looked over his shoulder to make sure that he did not ADD nor SUBTRACT from the text.

For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 1 Cor. 14:31

In romans 15 Paul said speak with ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH using "that which is written" or "scripture" to EDIFY or educate, and COMFORT through the scriptures. That does not use the "singing" word because ADO is not SANGING but speaking. Others may dialog that and then ANOTHER passage is read and the practice was to LEARN the text and not MUSICATE it to nullify it. That is how Thomas Campbell defined "worship": reading and musing the Word of God. Then, you have no problems with DIVERSITIES which are NOT fodder for consideration says Paul in Romans14.

Tongues were the 70 minor dialects which were more comfortable than Koine which everyone could understand. They should not punish anyone (forbid) but they must be SILENT unless someone can INTERPRET which means from ONE language to ANOTHER:

If any MAN think himself to be a PROPHETS, or spiritual,

let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you
are the commandments of the Lord. 1 Cor. 14:37

But if any man be IGNORANT, let him be ignorant. 1 Cor. 14:38

Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy,
and forbid not to speak with tongues. 1 Cor. 14:39

Let all things be done decently and in order. 1 Cor. 14:40

Not EVERYTHING was permitted but ONLY to edification which means EDUCATION: that which one does in a BIBLE CLASS which has no preachers (outlawed in the synagogue) and no SINGERS (who would SUGGEST them?) but only explaining whatever is not clear and EXHORTING one another to that portion which has been read.

Gradualism began with "singing" as an act which was added about the time "non-Biblical" texts were written either to PROMOTE or REFUTE false teachings. In the last few years "singing" has devolved to a highly-honed style and content intending to "manipulate" people into a MENTAL STATE they call spiritual. When Moses identified idolatry it was not the legitimate sound of war or rejoicing over the enemy: it is SINGING that I hear. In Revelation 18 which predicts "times such as these" Paul identified all of the religious teknokrats; craftsmen, singers and musicians as practicing SORCERY. All singing words which Paul put down were "pagan prophesying" and are all identified in the Greek texts as practicing, confessed sorcerers. The literates saw the word guitarIST as meaning PARASITE. They were "simulating" the "ascending to bring Christ down or descending to bring Christ back from the dead" which is outlawed.

Sure, you can never pay for the "theaters for holy entertainment" if you RESTORE the "school of the Bible" but then you can buy health insurance for your kids and NOT get "sorcerized" and dissociated mentally by the "sanging thingy" always called sorcery.

Bro. Donnie,

I have some questions for you and they are only
meant to have a better understanding of you
perpective and maybe for you to have a better
understanding of my perspective:

1. Do you faithfully attend Madison Church even
to this day or do you contribute to this site
because you have many personal friends that you
want to warn of the 'dangers of a Purpose-Driven
Church'?

2. If you do faithfully attend the Madison Church, is
it all bad or do you still get some spiritual fulfillment
out of the services ?

3. Are you grieved in the heart and spirit frequently or
every day because of what is happening at Madison or
are you able to persevere through this and hope that
things will get back to the way it used to be ?

4. Has being in this situation affected your health,
relationship with family or others ? Has it affected
your personality and how you live on a day to day basis ?

5. Is there any redeeming value in what Madison is doing
today ? Do they still present a gospel message and do
the unchurched hear something that will stir their souls.

6. Be honest. Are there any new songs that you have heard
that you enjoy and make you think about the goodness
of God or some other spititual aspect of life ?
Ex. Shout to the Lord or Shine Jesus Shine. or others.

Please consider these questions.

As another note: why has emotions during worship services
become so wrong. God is the one who created us with these
emotions and I don't think he wants them checked at the
enterance and act like emotionless robots and then leave
the church. He created us to laugh, cry, sing, dance, and
express our insumountable joy in all settings especially
inside the church with authentic purpose. So if the
criticism is clapping, singing, dancing, or whatever;
certainly God wants us to be the humans He made us to be.
Another of the many reasons why I attend the Assemblies of
God is such a reason. I really do wish the people in the
churches of Christ would let loose and express themselves
freely in church.

Thank you,

Harry Smith

Harry,

I think you should know by now where I stand on issues concerning the community/charismatic/church growth and other culture-driven movements that have infected/affected only CERTAIN churches of Christ like Madison, as well as conservative/fundamental/independent Baptist and other churches.

But if you really don’t know, it means that you haven’t paid much attention to what is being discussed here as you are too busy relating to us your experiences as to why you left the church and are now an “Assembly Church of God” denomination follower. Other than that, I’m in excellent health and haven’t wavered from continuing to expose agents and proponents of the aforementioned movements on this site.

The emotional aspects that you speak of have nothing wrong in and of themselves. But when you associate the pop-rock-, concert-, sports-cheerleading-, rhythmic-clapping-, hand-raising-, dancing-or-swaying-to-the-music- and hand-waving-associated behaviors and experiences in the assembly of the saints, that’s when the believer’s intent in being in the gathering of the saints should be in question.

Knowing where our culture and society and the world in general stand in these matters should sufficiently convince the true believer that the transfer of or association with these worldly/secular activities in the assembly for the same objective is apparent. The mature Christian knows it. So, ask the young or not-so-grown-up follower who has been “under-the-influence.”

We are fully aware that you continue to promote your own church’s “Happy Hour” event in churches of Christ. Frankly, that’s not going to be accepted by the congregation that is truly grounded in the truth. Only a deluded congregation would go along with your “happy hour” scheme, and it might as well change its affiliation to that of your denomination—end of story.

I think that you should conserve your energy and effort in the church you are affiliated with. You are not the answer to what goes on at Madison.

Donnie

Donnie-
I did in fact intend to address that post to you. I accidentally put my own name there. You got the point though. Good job.

You can accuse me of plagarism. That's what it was. It's just that you did such a good job referring to yourself, that I couldn't pass it up. I found that by changing a few choice words, it fit you perfectly.

Do you really think the readers are interested in my opinion in my own words?
O.K.- here it is: Based on your writings on this website, you need to find a new congregation to worship at. You shame Jesus and His church by slandering and causing division in the church you still claim to be a member of.

So let me get this straight. According to your last post, Madison is sinning because they don't sing hymns, but instead, sing songs YOU don't like? And Acapeela moving from Paris to Nashville is wrong because?????

You, however will continue to handle it like the upstanding Christian man you are. Just as Jesus would: Calling them names, discrediting their ministry, judging them, and telling lies about them, as well as putting on display your clear ignorance of a full-time ministry, and the concept of salary.

My question is, where in scripture do you get the authorization to rebel against the elders of the church?

It's a simple question that requires a simple answer. One word, with a couple of numbers after it. (Book, chapter and verse- you know the concept well, because you ask for it all the time). Can you answer this? Truthfully, I mean.

Not even Jesus modelled COMMAND AUTHORITY and he outlawed it for the APOSTLES. How do elders suddenly get this AUTHORITY over NOT-CHURCH activities.

Elders are RECOGNIZED but not ELECTED because they "are already laboring to the point of exhaustion in preaching and teaching." Since there is NO ROLE called PREACHER we understand Paul in Ephesians 4 to define the evangelist with a GO button and the elders as the sole PASTOR-TEACHERS. Double honor means an HONORARIUM but not a salary.

Beginning as the "church in the wilderness" the synagogue had the role of READING, and REHEARSING the WORD while they RESTED from the laded burden of a collection plate and STAFF INFECTION.

Jesus exampled and proved the READING of the synagogue, the word EKKLESIA means synagogue means "school of the Bible." Paul directly commanded NOT pleasuring which is the antics of the CROOKED generation FROM WHOM Jesus died to free us. To those "competent to teach one another" was added and observed for hundreds of years JUST the Lord's Supper. Singing was an apostasy about c. 400 and preaching came about then. "Moses was PREACHED in the synagogue every Sabbath BEING READ."

The SOLE authority of the elder is to "teach that WHICH HAS BEEN TAUGHT" and the Sabbath--meaning REST which is ANTI-worship--outlawed SPEAKING YOUR OWN WORDS. If the elder is not qualified by HIS OWN HOLY SPIRIT meaning "holding the mysteries of the faith in a clear conscience" then he is NOT qualified in any sense. PEER bonding DOETH NOT AN ELDER MAKE but a WOLF. A wolf is a pervert who allows the CYNICS to enter into the FOLD and howl their attracting songs.

There is NO preacher in a TRUE synagogue of Christ.

Therefore, NO elder has the authority to hire a HIRELING.

Preaching is NOT permitted in the "synagogue" which had no praise service. Therefore, NO praise LEADER which is the most ancient, legalistic superstition know in Cave Man 101aaa.

There is NO Law of giving so if the elders are doing PSYCHOLOGICAL VIOLENCE by using the LAW OF TITHING as at MAD or the LAW OF GIVING then they are NOT ethically or morally BISHOPS who FEED the word--only.

Jesus exampled and Paul commanded THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN or SCRIPTURE for songs and sermons: if they have a HIRELING who composes his own SCRIPTURE then he qualifies as both a SCRIBE and PHARISEE.

Jesus used prophecy to tell us that the HYPOCRITES are performance speakers, singers and musicians. In Revelation John calls them SORCERERS: they are DECEIVING the World even as the SERPENT as a "musical enchanter" wholly seduced Eve.

Therefore, the ELDERS have TAKEN CAPTIVE a group of people and have no more AUTHORITY than anyone who boasts about INFILTRATING and DIVERTING to "turn this into a Theater for Holy Entertainment."

So, YOUR psychological violence will not work because Jesus died to save us FROM that CROOKED generation where CROOKED identifies the "skolion" singers. Remember that Paul said, according to the literature, "Don't get PIPED down or FLUTED down" by the skolion singers known today as the NEW WINESKINERS. Then you SPEAK that which is written.

The RESTORATION meaning according to the Campbell's is just what I have said and further that NO leaders have the authority to ADD the spiritual anxiety of DEBT.

Remember, that Paul said LAY a weekly sum BY YOURSELF for the ONE TIME GIVING only to the DESTITUTE and only if you were WILLING. That means that the ELDERS have no more FUNDING than the Mafia to exercise authority OVER the fleeced lambs.

So, wise up and get yourself an honest job.

This dicussion is getting interesting (finally). Excuse Sublett for the lie-filled interuption Donnie, as you were saying?????


Roger's question is, where in scripture do you get the authorization to rebel against the elders of the church?

It's a simple question that requires a simple answer. One word, with a couple of numbers after it. (Book, chapter and verse- you know the concept well, because you ask for it all the time). Can you answer this? Truthfully, I mean.

It would be a mistake to believe that just because a man becomes an elder, he also becomes infallible and can never do any wrong or never lead the Church in the wrong direction. Such fallacious thinking would be similar to that which surrounds the pope in the Roman Catholic Church. The New Testament does admonish us not to rebuke elders in general; however, since they are not infallible, the NT also makes provision for dealing with those elders who err:

"Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren" (1 Tim. 5:1 KJV).

"Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality" (1Tim. 5:19-21 KJV).

All members of the Church are accountable to the tenets of Christ. And since elders and other officers of the Church are to set examples for all, they are especially accountable. If elders waver from the path of Christ as outlined in the New Testament, it is the duty of the congregation to take them to task for it and rebuke them before the congregation, according to the New Testament.

Elders who incorporate into worship services the look and feel of performing arts centers, the look and feel of carnival side shows, and the look and feel of the Broadway stage indeed make the Church more like the world. Because such elders defy Romans 12:2, James 4:4, and 1 John 2:15-17 (KJV), they are not fit to hold this office and should be removed unless they repent and turn back to the path of Christ.

Nablab, I have asserted and can prove that the CORRUPTED word means to SELL AT RETAIL and TO BE AN ADULTERER.

I can prove that there is no INSTITUTE over which elders can RULE: you remember that Shepherds go OUT and collect lost sheep: he has no authority to ENTERTAIN THE GOATS and HIRE the wolves.

Unless you and Roger can PROVE what kind of AUTHORITY they have which CANNOT BE QUESTIONED then and only then can you prove that questioning the self- or peer- selected bonded buddies is NOT TO BE TOLERATED! Heil?

I just don't want the huge number of daily readers to MISS the point that the INSTITUTE is jointly-held and usually coerced into joining property. The monies which go into the member-owned INSTITUTE do not belong to the elders usually led by ONE dominant Alpha Male. I think that Fiduciary Malfeasance could be proved in court: and thank God the CIVIL authorities are loosing their mideaval fear of the NEO-PAPACY. For MOST of the lower income people the STATE with a standard deduction has already swiped the TAX EXEMPT thingy right out from under their noses. That does not prevent the SCAM artists from using the "YOU CAN SAVE MONEY BY GIVING IT TO ME"

Nablab, if you are feeding your face from the Widow's Purse then you are TERMINAL: defending "music"according to the Bible and The Book of Enoch is the MARK that you have fallen and CANNOT get back up.

I just want people to know that you call ABSOLUTE TRUTH a LIE but you cannot DISPROVE a single one. Let the watching world read how NaBlab will defend the Law of Fleecing Honest Workers out of their children's food money.

Let you or Roger-Dodger tell them how "You must not ENTREAT an elder who says GET OVER IT" when you know from Genesis to Revelation and ALL recorded history that they are just feeding the face of the Rich and Famous by the lie of THE LAW OF GIVING and THE LAW OF TITHING. Babble 101aaa knows that suggesting TITHING is robbery and running roughshod back beyond the Cross.

You couldn’t do it, could you? All I asked was, where in scripture does it say that it’s OK for you to rebel against your eldership? All it required was one scripture reference, but that was too much to ask. Oh well, here's my response.

“I don’t think you’re being fair by saying that “Madison is sinning…” according to my last post. In all of the posts I’ve written, I have never made such a declaration or even an implication. Be careful …”

*So, by doing all the horrible things you write about in every post you make, you are not saying they are sinning? So, you admit that what they are doing is NOT wrong. It is just a matter of you not liking it.

SO- that makes you, not a “defender of the faith” as you like to fancy yourself, but really more of a cry baby. I was wondering if you were ever going to admit it. Glad to see you’ve come around.




“I haven’t said that ALL contemporary musical pieces are evil or that I dislike. But I’ll admit it … that I do like some of the 7-11 [repeat 7 words 11 times ] rah-rah-rah choruses—only if I participated in rallies or campfires for seniors or in sport and other social events. I did list “Clap Your Hands” and “Oh, I was made for this: to know Your tender kiss…,” didn’t I? What a way to demonstrate awe and reverence for our Father in heaven with programmed, rhythmic clapping. What a way to translate the Savior’s agape love and suffering and death on the cross into some erotic praise music!!!”

*I don’t understand. You like it or you don’t? You’re saying two different things here. By the way, you’re beginning to sound like Sublett (who, by your own admission is a liar), calling it “erotic” praise music. I would love to hear your reasoning behind that. BUT- if it has anything to do with Zoe, Apollo, whores, flute girls, Pan, or orgies, save it.






“Did I say that the Acappella company MOVING from Paris to Nashville is wrong? I was just informing.”

*Well, let’s see… when you say, “It looks like the staff infection is spreading—not the gospel of Christ.” I’d say that’s a little more than reporting. Quit trying to be all innocent. You’re divisive in the Kingdom, and your actions, thoughts, and writings are contrary to God’s will. Denying it won’t fix it.



“Obviously, you misunderstood the “religious” implication associated with this “business” organization—yeah, you know, that money-making venture in the name of Christianity?”

*There’s nothing wrong with that. If you are Christian, and you have a job, you’re making money in the name of Christ. I detect a hint of jealousy.




“A cappella singing that’s combined with unintelligible human sounds that simulate musical instruments anyway?”

*Your preference of music is boring to some. Remember what Jesus said, “Do unto others…” Would you want someone to talk this way about your preferred style?





“Besides, did you not see the venues: First United Methodist Church and Church of the Nations?”

*So.





“Oh, calling names … discrediting their ministry … judging them … telling lies about them … my clear ignorance of a full-time ministry and the concept of salary—you say?”

*Yes. I do.




“Well, let me briefly say the following: (1) “Worship Leader”—do a Google search on it; (2) spreading the gospel of Christ to the lost is THE ministry; (3) no, not I, but God is the righteous Judge; (4) the “worship” guide, the Marcher, the Acappella newsletter, hopefully, do not lie; (5) I would not classify the Worship Leader’s arm-wagging task a few hours a week as a full-time ministry; (6) it’s worth repeating … that the musical staff’s salary is not warranted by the Holy Scripture and is a total waste of the saints’ contribution intended to help the needy—not company owners.”

*I don’t understand what this paragraph means. It’s a bunch of garbled, unrelated sentence fragments. Could you please re-state the point of it?




“And … “the authorization to rebel against the elders of the church,” you say? Hmmm! I do not recall mentioning the elders.”

*You didn’t mention them in this post, but your actions on this website, and your constant insults and criticism of them and Madison is rebellion.




“What about, instead, letting the scriptures define or identify for us who the elders are and their functions.”

“Disagreeing with the elders, especially when they have succumbed to cultural and social influences that cause conflicts and discord among the members, is not rebelling against the Chief Shepherd.”

*First of all, they haven’t “succumbed to cultural and social influences that cause conflicts and discord among the members”. They have made wise, Biblical, Godly decisions, and a small handful of the members like you have rebelled.

Second- Rebelling against the leaders God has put in place, IS rebelling against Him. At least that’s what HE says, whatever that’s worth to you. Look up Korah in your concordance, and read his story. It reminds me a lot of you.



“Roger, I would urge you to re-read the post and try to understand what God’s purpose or directive for His church really is.”

*Boy, you think quite a bit of yourself don’t you? That’s how we find out God’s will, by reading YOUR posts? What we do without you Donnie?




“Wouldn’t you question why 75% of the assembly period is being devoted to “musical worship?”

*No. Music and singing is one of the best ways we know as humans to express worship and love to God. Why WOULDN’T we devote 75% of our service to it? Just how much do you love God? Why wouldn’t you want to show it as much as you can?




“Maybe, I’m being overly simplistic, but I just cannot envision the first century church (as in Acts 20:7) having a “Worship Leader” and a group of musicians, the “Praise Team,” performing to or for the saints in Jerusalem or Ephesus, etc.”

*This is going to come as a surprise to you, but it’s NOT the first century. The “restoration movement” has got it all wrong. We are in no way under any directive to restore the first century church. If we are, we’re doing a horrible job.

Roger missed out on some stuff! When God wants to reveal His Will for people He speaks face to face or mouth to mouth. When Israel fell into musical idolatry God blinded them and turned them over to worship the STARS: one of those stars was Aix or Capella the SHE goat:

Ex.33:11 The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend. Then Moses would return to the camp, but his young aide Joshua son of Nun did not leave the tent.

After the musical idolatry God BLINDED them (2 Cor 3) and promised ANOTHER prophet and warned HIM YE SHALL HEAR. Now, you remember that all known history knows that Miriam had all of the MARKS (for we literate) of a prophetess OF HATHOR. A "prophetess" sang, danced, beat on instruments and LED the women to ESCAPE from the Song of Moses and they just chanted the WAR line.

Nu.12:8 With him I speak face to face, clearly and not in riddles; he sees the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?"

So it was the FEMALE "musician" who is the PROTOTYPICAL usurping woman in Paul's warning. God struck her with a dose of leprosy something like the promised plagues in Revelation and she evaporates off the scene.

NOW Korah, the son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, and Dathan and Abiram, the sons of Eliab, and On, the son of Peleth, sons of Reuben, took men: Numbers 16:1

And they rose up before Moses, with certain of the children of Israel,

two hundred and fifty PRINCES of the assembly,
FAMOUS in the congregation,
men of RENOWN: Numbers 16:2

Now, Dodger, this here looks like the JUBILEE to me! You remember that one FAMOUS and RENOWN leader pronounced the WORD sifted of all truth except the KORE gospel of seven facts ABOUT Jesus. He and the PRINCES or PRINCESSES rose up against JESUS and CLAIM that they are to WORK OUT THEIR OWN SALVATION which they TWIST to mean "work out a NEW set of doctrines for the COMMUNE from which "individuals have no right to read, interpret or speak the word OUTSIDE of the COMMUNE reading" which means the new APOSTLE'S misreading.

Now, you remember that the JUBILEE was to RE-distribute the lands, to BLOW LOUD WIND INSTRUMENTS and "Atone for the sins" of the OLDEN church of Christ. They CLAIM in print to have VISIONS and hear AUDIBLE VOICES.

And they GATHERED themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said unto them, Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the Lord is among them: wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of the Lord? Numbers 16:3

And when Moses heard it, he fell upon his face: Numbers 16:4

This is a long story but Donnie is not one of the famous THOUGHT LEADERS who have risen up against Christ and HIS words. Moses later warned:

For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers (hissers) of times, and unto diviners (singers of magical songs): but as for thee, the Lord thy God hath not suffered thee so to do. Deut 18:14

6049
1. (Piel) to make appear, produce, bring (clouds)
2. (Poel) to practise soothsaying, conjure
1. to observe times, practice soothsaying or spiritism or magic or augury or witchcraft
2. soothsayer, enchanter, sorceress, diviner, fortuneteller, barbarian, Meonenim (participle)

This means to use RESPONSIVE SINGING to OPPRESSS.

Now, you will remember that John said that the singers, musicians and all ritual STAFF were UNDER (hee haw) the Mother Harlot. John said that they were SORCERERS deceiving the world--AND GETTING PAID TOO. Now, the next MOUT TO MOUTH "Moses" is Lord Jesus Christ and YOU are doing the CORE or KORAH act when you join the Jubilators or "horn blowers."

I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. Deut 18:18

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.Deut 18:19

But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. Deut 18:20

Jude warned of the FLAMES when he referred to The Book of Enoch which defines the MUSICIANS as being led by SATAN to deceive the world with music: God will come with a FLAMING FIRE and TOPHETH is specificially prepared for the Babylon Whore and all she can seduce with SORCERY meaning MUSIC:

Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. Jude 3

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ORDAINED to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into LASCIVIOUSNESS, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. Jude 4

So, Rodger, how does it FEEL to know that they are part of the CROOKED generation of vipers John would not baptize, Jesus called SONS of the Devil and SHUT OFF the flow of information using PARABLES or SINGY-SONGS. The crooked generation were SKOLION singers: from the holy tavern as New Wineskinners who tried to get Jesus to bow, sing and dance when they piped.

How does it feel since you are Isaiah 30 literate to know that HELL was prepared SPECIFICIALLY for Lucifer "the singing and harp-playing prostitute" who is called ZOE? All of the Bible treats you as a Cainite or Kenite and literally a SEPARATE SPECIES. l believe TRULY that the world was inhabited by the NACHASH (musical enchanter in the garden) and that their DNA survives.

I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. Jude 5

And the angels (messengers) which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Jude 1:6

After describing these "angels of death" in detail including their connection with Sodom, Jude makes the Core connection:

Woe unto them for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward [PAY], and perished in the gainsaying of Core. Jude 11

Cain is: Qayin (h7013) kah'-yin; from 6969 in the orig. sense of fixity; a lance (as striking fast): - spear.

Quwn (h6969) koon; a prim. root; to strike a musical note, i. e. chant or wail (at a funeral): - lament, mourning woman.

I told you that Jesus cast these Musical Minstrels out LIKE DUNG.

Jude 12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead,plucked up by the roots;

Jude 13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Jude 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Jude 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Jude 16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having mens PERSONS in admiration because of ADVANTATE.

Jude 17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Jude 18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly LUST.

Here are the mockers or sporters

Empaigma A. jest, mocking, delusion, LXX Is.66.4; magikês empaigmata technês [Magica and Musica have about the same meaning]

Techn-ê II. an art, craft, to learn a thing professionally, having made a trade of it, the Art of Rhetoric, tricks of Rhetoric,

Empaizo II. SPORT in or on, hôs nebros chloerais e. leimakos hêdonais E.Ba. 866 (lyr.); tois choroisin e. to sport in the dance, Ar.Th.975; tôi gumnasiôi Luc.Lex.5 .

When they sing, clap and gyrate around they are SPORTING with you: that is why they USE professionals.

So, Roger, there are only TWO face to face speakers FOR God: the Last one WAS God in the flesh, the Holy Spirit or the Mind of Christ. Now, I remember being attacked by people who claim that the elders are CELESTIAL BEINGS. Now, you equate the false TEACHINGS of elders as a FACE TO FACE revelation which SUPERCEDES all of the Bible and all known history which associates MUSICAL religion to pagan WOMEN. We are well informed that when males fell into it they had to be DRUNK or PERVERTS.

A CORRUPTER of the word is an ADULTERER who "sells learning at RETAIL." That is the MARK Music is also the other MARK of the BEAST: In the Gnostic revival ZOE is called the BEAST and "female instructing principle." MUSIC was what silenced the Covenant of Grace delivered by Moses. MUSIC was the prophecies MOCKING Of Jesus Christ. Music is the MARK of the prostitute religion using SORCERERS. And Rodger has SOME motive for trying to destroy those who WARN. Is Roger on the DOLE? That is a MARK.

So you start out with a lie-
"Roger missed out on some stuff! When God wants to reveal His Will for people He speaks face to face or mouth to mouth."

Guess that negates the Bible. Why have we wasted our time following it all these years?
All we had to do was ask ken Sublett. He had the answers all along.

I didn't have time to read, much less respond to the rest of your typically way-too-long post, but according to your track record, I'm sure it was full of true, well-thought-out, sane statements.

“And that should explain why you couldn’t find my answer to your question—“… where in scripture do you get the authorization to rebel against the elders of the church?”

No, the reason I can’t find your answer, is because IT’S NOT IN THERE! You don’t have authorization to rebel against your elders.


“—somehow I really question the validity of the expression “to rebel against the elders of the church.” If you can show me a scriptural reference to that expression, I will certainly thank you.”
1 Timothy 5:17
The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.
Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.
You can thank me now, or later.

[Donnie]: (1) “Worship Leader”—do a Google search on it;
[Roger]: (1) Since when is Google any kind of authority on anything? You call Keith Lancaster, and other worship leaders and elders insulting and disrespectful names on this website all the time.


[Donnie]: (2) … spreading the gospel of Christ to the lost is THE ministry;
[Roger]: (2) … then why don’t you? You attempt to discredit his ministry when you call him “The Worship Leader” with quotation marks, as if it’s not a real title. Not to mention the constant insults.


[Donnie]: … (3) no, not I, but God is the righteous Judge;
[Roger]: … (3) you seem convinced that their activities and decisions have condemned them to Hell, without bothering to allow God to make that decision. It’s called JUDGING. Google it.


[Donnie]: … (4) the “worship” guide, the Marcher, the Acappella newsletter, hopefully, do not lie;
[Roger]: … (4) no, but you do.

[Donnie]: … (5) I would not classify the Worship Leader’s arm-wagging task a few hours a week as a full-time ministry;
[Roger]: … (5) thus the display of your ignorance


[Donnie]: … (6) it’s worth repeating … that the musical staff’s salary is not warranted by the Holy Scripture and is a total waste of the saints’ contribution intended to help the needy—not company owners.
[Roger]: … (6) It actually IS warranted by the Holy Scripture, as much as many of the other not-mentioned specifics that you think are O.K. If your OPINION is that it is a waste of money, guess what? TOO BAD. You’re not an elder, thus you must live with it. If they are wrong, they will answer to God. It’s not your place to publicly post criticism of them on a website or anywhere else. To do so is rebellion, which is wrong. See above.


“You probably should not have left the church—which explains your derision of the “Restoration Movement.”

My derision of the Restoration Movement, comes from the fact that in over 100 years of effort, they are nowhere near looking anything like the first century church. They’re not even trying. It’s a facade. There is no true restoration movement, nor should there be. This isn’t the first century.


Till next time, Donnie.

Roger

Roger,

I’m glad that you finally quoted scriptures.

I Timothy 5:17—“Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.”

Hebrews 13:17—“Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.”

The underscored expressions should help you understand your own issue that you created yourself. I have/had NOTHING TO DO with the church upheaval that occurred in 2001—why so many brethren were alienated and left … why an announcement had to be made to the congregation: “Get over it; we must move on.” I had not even heard of this website until 2002.

Roger, you’re the one who rebelled against your elders to the point that YOU LEFT the church. [BTW, I know that part about you. So, you can’t hide the truth from the readers.] I wouldn’t be surprised if you even rebelled against your parents, your own family who, I should say, may still be members of the same church that I’m a member of.

Speaking of lies you accuse me of, you failed miserably in proving so.

But I’ll continue to prove or show evidences of events and activities from actual sources. Here’s something from a business-oriented, in-the-name-of-religion organization called “The Acappella Company” (acappella.org—November newsletter):

• http://www.queenslandertours.com/qtt/keithcaribbean.htm (“Come cruising with Durant and Keith Lancaster July 30th-Aug. 4th [2007]. … Join Keith Lancaster on ‘Congregational Singers of the Caribbean’ by QUEENSLANDER TOURS. 5 Night Cruise | Tour Class: Comfortable | Tour Type: Hosted Luxury”)
  
  
• “Keith Lancaster is scheduled to do a ‘hymns’ seminar with Dr. Jerry Rushford from Pepperdine at the Mid Atlantic Fellowship. The theme this year is ‘Hymns That Have Shaped Our Faith.’ [D.C.: Wow! Madison’s “contemporary” assembly needs this seminar very badly—and needs to stay away from the rah-rah-rah musical for a while.]
  
  
• On sale … maybe: “Christmas Time Is Near—It’s hard to believe that Christmas is less than eight weeks away. Now is the time to start thinking about what Acappella product will help you get ready for the season….”
  
  
• 12/3/2006: Lake Jackson, TX
  Venue: Convention Center | First Baptist—Brazoria
  Event Info: Christmas Dinner Concert Event
  
  
• 12/8/2006: Fort Worth, TX
  Venue: McKinney Memorial Bible Church
  Event Info: McKinney Memorial Bible Church Christmas Event
  
  
• 1/29—2/1/2007: Antigua, Guatemala
  Venue: Compassion | International Compassion
  Event Info: Compassion
  
  
• 3/18/2007: Gulf Shores, AL
  Venue: Gulf Shores United Methodist
  Event Info: Concert
  
  

I think I have heard this before—A few Sundays ago, preacher Phil Barnes related that when asked if the [Madison] congregation had a choir (Donnie personally thinks that the reference was to the “Praise Team” … the newly discovered “Church of Christ Choir”), he responded that “Yes, we do have a ‘choir’ that is almost a 2,000-voice strong.”

I agree that with the microphones’ volume level measured in16 “jezebels” … that Keith’s “Praise Team” would sound like 2000 voices. Add the loud rhythmic clapping to that.

Donnie

I have recently received an e-mail a portion of which stated:

“With approval from the elders at this [my former] congregation, they now have worship leaders equipped with their mics. The more I read the Madison thread the more I realized this church had been taken over.”

This past Sunday, I was in the contemporary assembly, with the usual expectations. It was evident that musical worship, an unknown entity in the assembly of the saints in the first century, was the pervasive atmosphere. Throughout the “worship” hour-and-a-half, reverential offering of glory and honor—the least amount of time dedicated to devotion—had to be part of the musical worship. It had to be! After all, even if it amounted to only 20 or 30 percent of the entire “let us worship the Father,” no one could fairly say that the entire period was devoid of solemnity.

I think that, with the exception of the Communion, I was in the “Assembly of God” [Charismatic] gathering or in some made-for-TV TBN program. The constant rhythmic clapping by a few peace-disturbing-distracting participants; applause after a successful rendering of a contemporary “praise” chorus by the “Worship Leader’s” elite “Praise Team”; the visible body swinging-and-swaying to the music activity by some—all these were not to not capture the attention of others present for the purpose of expressing reverence to our Father in heaven. I think I heard some unintelligible sounds emanating from the elite singers’ vocal cords/chords. Do you think they were spontaneously excited? Or, did they follow the musical instructions to make this strange howling sound [just as the sheet music may indicate in what measure to do the rhythmic “clap-clap” or “clap-clap-clap”]? I’m not sure I know exactly how to describe the strange sound/noise. It sounded like Minnie Pearl’s “How-Dee-e-e-e-e?!?” or it may have emanated from the bulls’ urges in a rodeo—or something like that! But I took it in opposition to what the Scripture says about speaking, teaching and admonishing one another—which require intelligible words—and letting the “words of Christ dwell in us richly.”

Believe me, the “Worship Leader” and some leaders of the congregation encourage these things by example. Right there in front of the congregation! It is so easy for some of them to literally “lift my hands to the Father” [watch it … these words are in the song … oh, my], but so difficult to “bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Yeah, right, just go with the flow, eh.

One obvious change of direction—and I commiserate with the “preacher” whose “role” or influence has been greatly diminished and subordinated to that of the new, unauthorized “church staff” position of “Worship Leader.” The “worship leader” is now in control. Shame … shame … shame!!! It is NO LONGER the much-anticipated feature in the gathering of the saints—the reading and study of God’s word, along with the observance of the Lord’s Supper to commemorate the Lord’s suffering and death of the cross. Even the Communion is now marred by the constant injection of misguided concepts by associating it with some evening fellowship meal [to feed the belly].

Congregational singing to the best of the members’ abilities is now replaced with the Praise Team’s excellent musical performances. Their handheld microphones that measure in high “Jezebels” prove my point that to the performers, God is more pleased with the overpowering vocalizations [both intelligible and unintelligible (“how-dee”)] from the “Worship Leader’s” elite singers.

How is the “Worship Leader” or the church leaders reacting to Richland Hills’ leaders’ decision to go “instrumental”? I know Mr. Keith Lancaster has written “a cappella” all over his face—at least that’s the thrust of his own [other] business or organization. No, instrumental music, I think, is not in the horizon at Madison—from all indications. Why should Mr. Lancaster risk his “popularity” by employing instrumental music in the assembly? That would seem to go against the “idolatry of musical talent”—voices being drowned out by the “Christian Rock” band.

Donnie

Here’s an important “reality” lesson to learn … from Jared in his response to an excellent article by John Waddey [posted on 06.20.06] titled:

“PROVIDING IMMUNITY TO FADS IN WORSHIP”

Please follow the link to John’s article and Jared’s response on October 17, 2006 here:

Source: Motivated Change Agents Challenging Elders of the Church


I just wanted to state that I went to Madison C of C since I was born. I remember the day that I left and remembering seeing my grandmother mostly and the rest of my family cry. I know the devil caused this pain in my families lives. It hurts me to see the C of C have these problems. I just go and read the Bible to find the truth. I believe in the Bible and know that the Bible has not changed and will not change. I believe that clapping is a distraction to me and I read the Bible where it tells me "not to be a stumbling block" to others. I also read the Bible telling me that "worship is for Him", not for me. So saying "I feel good when I do ..." or "I think that the Bible says..." or that "I assume God wants it like...." are all the ways of the devil. Where the Bible is silent, so am I.

I also believe (my opinion) that if people at Madison C of C would read and understand the Bibles teachings none of this would have ever happened. I don't go to "feel good" about me, I go to praise and worship the Lord, God Almighty who is worthy of my devotion to Him.

I really hope and pray that all that cause the problems at Madison would change their ways back to God. I can only imagion what Ira North would tell people who caused this problem and even more scarier, what God would tell these same people.

I, being of college age, know have been in false teaching by a campus minister and was able to tell thru God's word (the Bible) that this man was teaching me wrong. I find it more and more everyday that there are false teachers and misleadings of leaders.

To me, this age that we live in is only getting worse or so it seems by my eyes. Not only is the goverment taking out God in lots of things, but have caused many more problems by doing this. Taking God out of schools seem to have cause: no respect for people of all ages, people not following rules, people looking for hope, joy, love, and peace in drugs and in other people, and so much more. Just to give an example, there in the state of Tennessee are people in gangs that drive with their lights off at night. Being a Christian and person wanting to help seeing cars with their lights off, makes me want to flash my lights on and off bright to tell them their lights are off. Though if I did do this, they would turn around try to run me off the road to kill me. What about sueing? People are sueing for hot coffee, name calling, and all other kinds of things. Makes you wonder how all this could happen so fast from just a couple of years before people didn't mind to pick up people needing rides, going to help people they saw in need, no locks on doors of cars, houses, or anythings to the world we live in today. I believe it's the word of God that keep people in a flow of trust in others, respect to others, kindness, joy, hope, love, and all the great things of God.

I know I've talked about so many different things, and I hope you don't mind. I just feel (my own opinion) that people are not doing what God wants and only trying to please themselves, just like the King of England did. (made the New England Church, so that he could divorce his wife). People at Madison C of C seemed to want to do what made them "feel" closer to God, instead of reading in the Bible what God wanted and gave not only examples, but the Bible of telling us what He wanted.

Well thanks for reading this if you did. I hope all that you read, you know that I speak not of what I think of but what God says. (when I talk about the church and the Bible) If it was my choice to pick and choose who went to heaven...I would want all people to come, but 1st off, I'm not God, 2nd it's a narrow way, and 3rd not all that say "Lord, Lord" are going to make it in. So I hope that thru this, people will read and study for themselves and not take what other people say to heart until they find it in the Bible to prove what someone said.

In Him Always and Learning, Growing, and Loving Brother in Christ,

Jared D.

_____________________________

Donnie:
Is this the best thing this Site is for???
For critical analysis of the elers/praise team/drama team/those you dislike at Madison?

As I asked you previously at Faithsite.com I ask you again....
If you don't like it at Madison, then why do you attend there?
Start your own church, or go to one where you prefer their worship style!!!
Getting to heaven isn't going to happen by showing the world that you dislike or distrust your brother in Christ!

Donnie:
You said..."Servant, I was looking for your rebuttal in detail against my specific statements. I didn’t see any explanation in your post except to remark concerning “getting to heaven” and distrusting “your brother in Christ.” Oh, well, I think they’re good subject matters for discussion at some other time."

Would that be like when I gave rebuttal about your "proof", or lack thereof of showing historical evidence that instrumental music was not used with the first century church?

You show historians who did not live during the time of the first century church. I refutted one of your main historians, whom you say was quotted out of context when I showed proof that the said there was "no blame" for anyone if they wanted to used instruments of music.
Most of the historians that you quoted mentioned about the 'lifeless' instruments' out of preferrrence. That has nothing to do with fact showing that the first century church did/did not use instrumental music.
NO EVIDENCE Donnie. Even the historian Clemente, that you used to show 'proof', showed disdain for your 'proof.'
You use statements such as 'the silence of God is not permissive', and 'where the Bible speaks speak, and where the Bible is silent remain silent.
So I ask you about the great commission and how it tells us to 'go' but is SILENT on HOW to go. But then that is sooooooooo different from when the NT tells us to sing, and not HOW to sing.
Donnie, will those like you always claim ignorance to why the church of Christ is growing slower than it ever has???
Its because of WHAT YOU LIKE, but hexing and vexing what you don't like.
You use your sacred CENI for the items in the NT for which you prefer, but when it is used against you (the great commission and silence on how to go) then you say it is sin.
The only sin here is when Christians take it upon themselves to try to rewrite the Words of God and add sin to the Word where there was none in the first place. I used the word 'Christians' Donnie because I believe that you are a Christian, just a misguided one. Perhaps you no longer call me one, but I still believe that you and Bill and even Ken are my Christian brothers who are in SERIOUS error and need to ask God for forgiveness for your sins. I have already forgiven you. If it is a strong rhetoric that I have to keep up with you men, then so be it. YOU ARE IN ERROR, and you need to deal with it.

Well, our friend Servant is still denying all the evidence from numerous church historians and music scholars, who stated that the early Christians did NOT use instrumental music in their worship. He implies that no one can make that claim unless they had actually lived during that period of time. If that's the case, then all the universities should do away with their departments of history, since no one today can write about anything that happened prior to their lifetime. According to Servant's logic, "History" would only encompass the events that took place within the lifetime of the present generation. That, my friends, is most comical.

And why does Servant still cling tenaciously to one quote made by Clement of Alexandria, who supposedly said he would not blame the early Christians if they had used IM in worship. That was merely the opinion of a mortal man, not the words of Christ or the apostles; Clement in no way implied that the early Christians actually used IM in their worship. We just have too much historical evidence to the contrary, despite the fact that Servant has chosen to deny all that evidence, because it doesn’t suit his preferences. But perhaps Servant conveniently overlooked these quotes from Clement:

“"Leave the pipe to the shepherd, the flute to the men who are in fear of gods and intent on their idol worshipping. Such musical instruments must be excluded from our wingless feasts, for they are more suited for beasts and for the class of men that is least capable of reason than for men. The Spirit, to purify the divine liturgy from any such unrestrained revelry chants: ‘Praise Him with sound of trumpet,’ for, in fact, at the sound of the trumpet the dead will rise again; ‘praise Him with harp,’ for the tongue is a harp of the Lord; ‘and with the lute. praise Him,’ understanding the mouth as a lute moved by the Spirit as the lute is by the plectrum; ‘praise Him with timbal and choir,’ that is, the Church awaiting the resurrection of the body in the flesh which is its echo; ‘praise Him with strings and organ,’ calling our bodies an organ and its sinews strings, for from them the body derives its Coordinated movement, and when touched by the Spirit, gives forth human sounds; ‘praise Him on high-sounding cymbals,’ which mean the tongue of the mouth which with the movement of the lips, produces words. Then to all mankind He calls out, ‘Let every spirit praise the Lord,’ because He rules over every spirit He has made. In reality, man is an instrument arc for peace, but these other things, if anyone concerns himself overmuch with them, become instruments of conflict, for inflame the passions. The Etruscans, for example, use the trumpet for war; the Arcadians, the horn; the Sicels, the flute; the Cretans, the lyre; the Lacedemonians, the pipe; the Thracians, the bugle; the Egyptians, the drum; and the Arabs, the cymbal. But as for us, we make use of one instrument alone: only the Word of peace by whom we a homage to God, no longer with ancient harp or trumpet or drum or flute which those trained for war employ” (Clement of Alexandria, 190AD The instructor, Fathers of the church, p. 130).

Notice above that Clement takes phrases from the Psalms about using instruments and makes metaphorical comparisons to man's natural instruments, the tongue, the lips, the voice, all to sing praises to God. Clement concluded that instruments were no longer used to praise God.

“He who sprang from David and yet was before him, the Word of God, scorned those lifeless instruments of lyre and cithara. By the power of the Holy Spirit He arranged in harmonious order this great world, yes, and the little world of man too, body and soul together; and on this many-voiced instruments of the universe He makes music to God, and sings to the human instrument. ‘For thou art my harp and my pipe and my temple.’” (Clement of Alexandria, 185AD, Readings p. 62)

More metaphors from Clement about scorning lifeless instruments.

Servant said: "Donnie, will those like you always claim ignorance to why the church of Christ is growing slower than it ever has???"

If the church of Christ is "growing slower" at all, it's because people are slowly turning away from the true faith and jumping on the wagons of denominationalism with its penchant for promoting man-contrived doctrines to suit the carnally-minded, entertainment-oriented masses. But this should be no surprise to the discerning, for Christ through the apostle Paul centuries ago predicted that such behavior would eventually come to pass:

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables" (II Tim. 4:3-4 KJV).

Servant is reminded that we are no longer under the Old Covenant or the Law of Moses, which utilized instruments of music in worship. We are now under the New Covenant or the New Testament of Christ, which no longer authorizes instruments of music in worship. The NT specifically authorizes only vocal music or singing and making melody in the heart (Eph. 5:19; Col. 3:16 KJV).

Servant greatly emphasized "sin." Servant is also reminded that it is indeed a grievous sin to add anything more to NT Scripture or to go beyond what is written in NT scripture (I Cor. 4:6 KJV) when the NT has already laid down specific guidelines pertaining to worship and doctrine. Since singing and making melody in the heart are a part of worship and since only singing/making melody in the heart are authorized therein, to go beyond NT Scripture by adding musical instruments is indeed sinful. The melody is made in the heart, not with mechanical instruments. Thus God has not only commanded us to sing, He has also commanded us "how" to accompany our singing: by making melody in the heart.

So it's not a matter of preference and never will be a matter of preference; it's a matter of obedience to NT Scripture.

I am sick ay heart about what happened at Madison. I graduated from Lipscomb in 1959--Brother North's son Tim married my cousin. I remember when Nick Boone led singing there and now, I cannot believe what happened and what is happening around the country.

My fear is that many congregations are not aware of this movement, and it will happen and be too late. How do we make them aware? Some of my friends I talk to just sort of dismiss what I say as "demented ramblings."

The elders at Nashville Road are aware at this point. My father, P. J. Julian, was an elder there for 40 years and is now deceased (2000). He, at one time, went into the pulpit and escorted the visiting preacher out the door.

Another time, he and the minister, Brother Harris, asked a couple not to return because the man was beginning some of the "code" questions and comments in the men's BIBLE class.
Another time, he stopped a slide show by a Philipine visitor who stated "In the Philipines, we don't call it the Church of Christ but the "Way." At that point, the slide show stopped.

A child of Jackson County hills, my father was not a formally "schooled" person; however, he did know the BIBLE, and I miss him so very much.

What do I, as one person, do to help this problem?

Evelyn

Evelyn...

With all due respect to you... it seems that you are missing the point. Christ commanded us to love one another and to serve others and their needs before our own... and that was his basic message!

He stayed above the fray and rebuked the Pharisies when they tried to question him or his followers on minor technicalities of the Law. That is basically (in my opinion) what has happened in the more conservative Churches of Christ... there is a lot of nit-picking going on and we have gotten to the point to where we scrutinize every little thing that happens so much that we miss the point of what Christ really wants from us!!

Traditional Churches of Christ are quickly dying and by the time our kids grow old, they may be close to non-existant. I truly believe that the main reason for this is that we have failed to show people on the outside of the church that we grasp the basic message of Jesus Christ and that our main focus is on being Jesus Christ to a lost world... instead we have judged and condemned others that don't have all the same beliefs and traditions that we do. The rest of the world sees us as a bunch of closed-minded and legalistic hypocrites that would rather judge everyone and prove that we are right and that everyone else is wrong, as opposed to embracing them with love and acceptance in spite of their differences from us!

Evelyn,

Thanks for writing.

I’m reminded of the message I posted above from Jared D.—it is titled “I Remember the Day That I Left….” [by Jared] (October 20 2006, 1:56 AM). Actually, I extracted his letter from another thread—“Motivated Change Agents Challenging Elders of the Church.” In that thread, Jared’s letter was a very appropriate response to John Waddey’s article, “PROVIDING IMMUNITY TO FADS IN WORSHIP.”

Indeed, the combined idea of: (1) providing a so-called “holy” entertainment [fads] at the postmodern “worship center” and (b) the elders approving it … yields to alienation among the brethren and chaos—among so many other things.

No, you are not the only one sickened by this scenario as I’m sure that there are hundreds of others who feel the same way—disheartened, sad, and despondent. Perhaps, we could only ask—if the elders had known that welcoming Rick Warren’s [Community Church] pattern for the New Testament church would effect the church havoc that occurred a few years ago, would they have implemented Warren’s methodology for “church growth” anyway?

The best we can do, I believe, is pray continually for the unity of His body and for the church elders to be given the wisdom in their decision-making processes and the proper understanding that God’s directives for the church are not to be tampered with … that they consult God and His truth for guidance and answers—not rely on their own understanding.

Also, there are excellent threads on this forum that contain messages and articles written by John Waddey, editor of Christianity-Then-and-Now. One thread that comes to mind is—A NEW BIG PICTURE: “THE CHANGE AGENTS ARE COMING! THE CHANGE AGENTS ARE COMING!”

Not the least, let other members of the church be concerned members also. Share ConcernedMembers with your brothers and sisters in Christ.

Again, thanks!

Donnie

don,
I am sorry for you, man. I know that helpless feeling. It's like when you lean too far back in a chair. You know you're going to fall, and it happens so slowly, but ultimately, there's nothing you can do about it.

You told Vince Young (didn't know he was a C of C'er): "I wish I could help you understand that this website’s objective is to inform and warn others of the pitfalls and dangers that a church might expect when it is intruded upon and division ensues, and then acquisition is imminent."
You are FINALLY right about one thing. It is imminent. I asked this before, and never got an answer, so I'll try again.

This websites purpose is to warn people about the mythical "change agents", blah... blah... blah... so they can DO what? What are they supposed to do with your warning? don, they have three options:
1.) Love God and Love others. This means not only accepting, but embracing new ways to communicate the message of Jesus Christ
2.) They could leave their congregation, and find another that suits THEM (it is always about ME ME ME)
3.) They can, as you have so effectively modeled for us, stay at their congregation, living in sin by rebelling against the elders of that church.

If people don't like change, they can express that. If they are in a majority, and have weak leadership, that church will stay the same.
If they don't, they can leave. What's happening more and more, is people threatening to leave, thinking leadership will cower to their ego-fed threats. ("After all, what WOULD this church do without ME?"). But they are finding it falling on deaf ears. Leaving is the only thing they can DO about it. Their dwindling numbers can keep meeting together, and not changing.

So keep your "warnings" coming. They have been very effective slowing down the change, as evidenced by the numerous posts on this site detailing how the "change movement" is flourishing.






======================

Here's the portion (my original response to Vince) that is being removed -- not to be confused as part of Amazed's post above:

--------------------

It appears that you don’t take problems and issues that confront and divide certain congregations that seriously. I wish I could help you understand that this website’s objective is to inform and warn others of the pitfalls and dangers that a church might expect when it is intruded upon and division ensues, and then acquisition is imminent.

Of course, we know that Christians . . .

--------------------

Thanks

OOPS! Yeah, I cut/pasted your post to reference, and forgot to delete it before I sent it in.

I've told you many times that I have been freed from C of C legalism for about 5 years now. I do not attend a C of C anymore. Alot of the reason is because of what I am experiencing here. They spit out "doctrine" as fact, but when you ask them for an explanation, it's so shallow, that they have none. Instead of admitting that, they get mad and call names, etc...

It's largely a case of idol worship. Instead of doing what God says, and treating people the way He commands, it is far more important not to disappoint grandparents, parents, siblings, ministers, or friends. They worship man's opinion more than God, and as He says, "Worship ME only." They live in ignorance rather than being brave/smart enough to expect answers to legitimate questions.

By the way, are you the pot or the kettle here? Recycling answers???? You write the same thing over and over and over. You don't even recycle your answers, you just have one, and it's starting to stink. I think it's rotten. You might want to get a new one.

Seriously though, I'd appreciate a sincere effort from you to answer this. According to you, this site exists to "warn" people. O.K. They got your warning. Now, what are they supposed to DO about it????

Don't come with all your "stand strong in the truth" and "defend the faith" cliches. Give us something practical. Not an ideal, but an action. What can people DO besides leave a church????

Please feel free to edit my post also....
Donnie, if Amazing has left the church of Christ, then maybe you should follow likewise example.
I builid up the church of Christ while you slam it!
Why do you continue to stay at Madison when you are content with negatively condeming the worship service, the elders, the praise team, the praise team leaders, the extracurricular activites, etc (I could name more Donnie).
Do you realize that God will NOT allow you to coninue on this road of destruction. He will have His Way...and He will have His Way with you.
God is proud of what Jesus did with the Kingdom, even if you are not. He will ultimately protect it from individuals such as you.
If you believe nothing else Donnie, BELIEVE that!!!

Donnie:
You are promoting what you have said that you hate....circular logic (Walt).
You didn't answer the allegations about you continually slamming the leadership at your church. You seem to be content now that the worship leader has quit. Is that truly Christianity?
Also, I do not promote instumental music....this again is you taking what I say and senationlalizing it. Maybe a job at the Star or National Enquirer would be more apt to your abilities Donnie. I have always, and CONTINUE to worship at a church (church of Christ) where there is accapella music. The bullet for you and Bill and others from the more liberal side of the church is that there is a movement now where there is no condemnation of such instrumental music....which is the way it should be. God does not condemn it, and thats good enough for everyone else. You and others quote....
I Cor 4:6 Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.

However....you take insrumental music and make into a sin, where God has not.

Again, Donnie, if you are not happy at Madison, why stay? Why use this forum to bring down the Madison church and other sister congregations?
Do you really really believe that God will condone this???
God will protect His Kingdom and He will make sure that His Son's sacrifice will not be in vain.
God is merciful Donnie, but He will have His day. I just hope and pray that you and others here at this site come to your senses before that day breaks!

Servant says that he worships at a church of Christ with a cappella music, yet he says that we make instrumental music a sin where God does not. Thus Servant endorses IM in worship. This kind of theology holds that we may add and implement anything in worship that God does not specifically forbid by name. Since God does not specifically forbid instruments by name, then instruments may be used in worship. One doesn't even have to fall back on the Old Testament and Psalm 150 to justify IM...according to Servant's theology.

The problem is that Servant's theology ignores what God has already specified regarding the kind of music to use in worship--singing and making melody in the heart (Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16)--and endorses ADDING that which God has not authorized in the NT. And yes, any time we direct our songs and praise to God, we do worship Him. Servant ADDS according to his desires, not Gods' desire. Now since God has already specified vocal music only, to ADD IM is actually to go beyond what the NT specifies about worship music. 1 Cor. 4:6 forbids us to go beyond what is written in the NT. Alas, Servant cannot fathom this. Now if God had said for us simply to "make music" without being more specific, then we would have been free to use ANY kind of music we wished. But since God has specified only vocal music, we are not at liberty to implement anything beyond what has been written in the NT; that is, we are not at liberty to add or endorse IM.

Even though a church may not add IM, to teach that IM is acceptable in worship is not sound doctrine.

A similar analogy applies to the Lord's Supper. Christ specified bread and fruit of the vine. Suppose a church wanted to "spice up" the Supper by adding jelly to the bread. God doesn't forbid adding jelly by name anywhere in the NT, so it must be OK to add it to the bread, right? But who would actually add jelly? Since 1 Cor. 4:6 forbids us to go beyond what is written in NT Scripture, we may add nothing like jelly to the Lord's Supper, even if God does not specifically forbid the jelly by name. Likewise, we may neither add nor endorse IM or anything else to vocal music, even if God does not forbid IM by name.

It's important for all Christians to realize that God doesn't need to make an exhaustive list of everything that is forbidden, especially if He has already issued a command to DO something a certain way or in a certain manner, as in the case of vocal music. Since 1 Cor. 4:6 tells us to stay within the bounds of NT Scripture, the faithful will do just that; they will neither add nor endorse IM. The rebellious and unfaithful will add IM to please themselves or endorse IM to appear more acceptable in the eyes of the denominations.

The silence of God is not permissive....didn't you forget that one too Bill?
Tell me too where you found that at, by the way?
DId you perhaps find in the book of Acts, or Romans?
How about this one too....Speak where the Bible speaks, and be silent where the Bible is silent.
Please show book and verse.....
Didn't think so.

It is only man conjuring up an idea, a quandary, or plethora of notions to back his PREFERRENCES. He likes what he likes so he induces notions, not of God, to back his PREFERRENCES.

When man decides to list a sin in the Bible where God has not, he has added to the Word of God, which Bill Crump,and others voraciously apply here like mayonnaise on a mayonnaise sandwich.

He can say that "singing' means accapela only, and thus promotes his preferrences. At least singing is mentioned in the NT. How does he come up with the thought processes for a church building, or amplification, that is no where mentioned in the NT. Where is the application of 1 Cor 4:6 now?
That isn't adding to the Word, that is 'generic authority.' 'Generic authority' can cover a multitude of sins, can't it Bill?
Again, we like to use the word PREFERRENCE here. Bill prefers things his way, so even though he doesn't have Scriptural backing he comes up with these sayings. They sound good, just as the Pharisees sounded good quoting Moses.
God doesn't give us guidance when he tells us to "GO" and preach the Gosepel. Does He spell out how to go? If we went by plane or automobile would it matter?
When we sing, whether we sing with or without instruments, does it matter?
God tells us that fornication is wrong, and He would have done the same thing to instruments if He would have wanted us to know that instruments are wrong to use with singing.
When we sing, we sing with our hearts to Praise God. This can be done with or without instruments in the worship setting. Just as amplication in the building can be overpowering, so can instruments. But when you have the amplication (PA system) at the perfect level, and that piano where all it does is COMPLIMENT the voice, then God is Praised!!....and finally after all of the postings by the men here at this site.....NOT ONE of them could prove, through history, that the first century church did/did not use instrumental music during their time of worship. You hear men of history tell you what they prefer, but none could tell you about the musical worship pattern of Corinth, Ephesus, etc. They tell you what they believe or want to believe the way it was, but offer up no proof to back their PREFERRENCES.
AMEN AND AMEN!!!
Praise God FOREVER!!!

The problem with bill's theology is one thing: HYPOCRISY.
He says that adding specific things (like jelly) to a worship service is sinful, but can not, after being asked repeatedly on this site and faithsite, answer why it is OK to add the things he deems appropriate, such as song books.

What do you say bill, ready to give it a shot yet????

OK don- I know you don't have control over the leadership at other congregations. That's not what I am asking with the question, "What are churches supposed to do with your warning?" The question is: hypothetically, if you DID have control over the leadership at an un-infiltrated church, what would be your suggestion? What can they DO to stop the fake "change agents"???
Why is it so hard for y'all to answer this question?

As far as me not attending a C of C anymore, are you seriously ignorant, or are you just acting like it to prove a point? The Church of Christ is a denomination. No one here thinks you believe otherwise. The Church of Jesus Christ includes all believers. They don't have to walk in a door with the words "Church of Christ" on the door every Sunday to be included. You can say "We're not a denomination" all you want. I can also point at a cat and say, "That's not a cat, it's a dog", but guess what? Despite what I call it, it's still a cat.

I left the Church of Christ denomination. I am very much a member of the Church of Jesus Christ, the one you read about in the New Testament. If you want to know why, read many of my posts, here & at faithsite. Particularly my last one on this thread.

Do you really want a comparative analysis of my church's doctrine vs. yours? I'll give you one if you will seriously read it and respond to it fairly. I won't waste my time if you've already decided that it's heresy before you even see it, and only care to ridicule it.

There are two or three Psalms which have David singing to himself and meditating in the heart. Here is a quote from Maccabees which was in the version Jesus read. Notice that the TRUE God was the God of the Patriarch. Because of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai they LOST the Book of The Covenant and were stuck with the 'worship of the starry host' and a law to legislate for the lawless. Paul jumps over the Law (including David) and declares that the PROMISE made by the Spirit was to Abraham and at baptism we become children of Abraham and NOT David.
2 Maccabees 1

1 - The Jewish brethren in Jerusalem and those in the land of Judea, To their Jewish brethren in Egypt, Greeting, and good peace.
2 - May God do good to you, and may he remember his covenant with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, his faithful servants.
3 - May he give you all a heartto worship him and to do his will with a strong heart and a willing spirit.
4 - May he open your heart to his law and his commandments, and may he bring peace.
5 - May he hear your prayers and be reconciled to you, and may he not forsake you in time of evil.
2 Maccabees 15

26 - and Judas and his men met the enemy in battle with invocation to God and prayers.

27 - So, fighting with their hands and
praying to God IN THEIR HEARTS
they laid low no less than thirty-five thousand men,
and were greatly gladdened by God's manifestation.

OUTWARD In Romans 15 Paul defined the ekklesia or synagogue and and used different words to define what goes on in the heart:
They were to speak with ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH using "that which is written" further defined as "Scripture" in order to edify or educate one another. With Scripture he goes on to say that "you are competent to admonish one another."

The INWARD effect would be that they would glorify God or the Spirit OF Christ Who spoke through the Prophets, they would comfort one another with the Scriptures and they would keep the unity.

That is exactly what is commanded in Ephesians and what the church obeyed for almost 400 years when "external singing" was added. That lapse existed until the Reformation when the Calvinists restored the TEXT as the commanded resource or "that which is written."

Alexander Campbell caused the collapse of the "RESTORED first century principle" because he had a song book to sell.

As clearly as the Spirit of Christ could make it the direct command is:

OUTWARD method Speaking, Teaching, Admonishing.
RESOURCE: The Word of Christ or the Spirit (meaning the Words of Christ John 6:63)
TO WHOM: One to another.

INWARD RESULTS singing AND making melody (or grace)
Where? IN the heart: the heart or spirit or mind is a PLACE.
TO WHOM: To God. Giving thanks.

Many early scholars repudiated OUTWARD SINGING based on this direct command. This lasted until about 373. Later writers had to DEFEND against the discord caused by OUTWARD SINGING claiming that it was not SINGING but MUSIC which Paul outlawed.

There is NO music word used in the connection with the spirit-to-Spirit worship of a Spirit God "Who does not judge by what He sees or hears" (Isaiah 11). When Jesus denied that God even knew the name of the "Lord, Lord" prophesiers He was speaking directly to "prophesying" which meant to "sing and play instruments" to drive themselves into a frenzy which they WERE TOLD was the gods or demons. John in Revelation along with the definitions and uses of "singing" with or without instruments as SORCERY (Rev 18). That defines anyone who uses external means especially with impure musical tones which Nirmrod and modern medicine knew induced a drug high and produced pain for someone's gain. That is a fact and no one will find a jot or tittle which differes. One might expect that the MASSES collected ONLY by a "drug high" could never be the tiny REMNANT.

Why else would an infamous Texas "preacherling" deliberately lie about every musical term in the Bible and recorded history? Music has always been DEFACTO lying along with drama which is OUTLAWED by the words for SPEAK. Jesus refused to speak the truth to that GENERATON which He clearly defined by "children piping" and the "agora." Peter made it clear that SALVATION was not a punched ticket on the Joy Bus to Heaven but salvation FROM that CROOKED GENERATION. The word CROOKED and PERVERSE is defined clearly with the SINGING and instruments "pointed to" when Paul said "don't get drunk on wine" which in the texts always turns out to be DON'T GET FLUTED DOWN WITH WINE. Only by coming in out of the BLAST of those BLOWING WIND is it possible to REST and "learn of Me" says Jesus.

Bill:
I notice too where you mention...
"A similar analogy applies to the Lord's Supper. Christ specified bread and fruit of the vine. Suppose a church wanted to "spice up" the Supper by adding jelly to the bread. God doesn't forbid adding jelly by name anywhere in the NT, so it must be OK to add it to the bread, right? But who would actually add jelly? Since 1 Cor. 4:6 forbids us to go beyond what is written in NT Scripture, we may add nothing like jelly to the Lord's Supper, even if God does not specifically forbid the jelly by name. Likewise, we may neither add nor endorse IM or anything else to vocal music, even if God does not forbid IM by name."

This is an age old faulty proof (or lack thereof), and again, man's need to conjur up something out of the blue to mask his preferrence and try to set it up as Scriptural.

Singing ACCOMPANIED by piano (a tool or aid, not an addition)
We accompany the song leader as well with a PA system.
The fruit of the vine mentioned as the cup. ADDING jelly to substitute for it.
Jelly for the cup instead of the fruit of the vine, and a piano to AID the singing.
Those show similiar logic, right?
The jelly is not the fruit of the vine (specific), and is therefore an addition, where the piano AIDS singing (singing is still accomplished with the piano). Jelly is not even a liquid, not even close to the fruit of the vine.
That is what you deal with here people, that sort of logic.
TO 'SING' doesn't specify how or with what. A PA is used, just as a piano is. The piano does not change the voice or singing, neither does the PA.
See there Bill, this is easier than you think!

Good points, Not Impressed. Servant, by declaring that there is nothing wrong with using instruments in worship (though he claims to be a member of an a cappella c of C), endorses, promotes, or otherwise condones IM in worship, whether he realizes that or not. But just to be fair: instruments of themselves are not sinful at all; the unauthorized use of those instruments in worship is sinful.

What Servant and other liberals cannot or will not fathom, understand, or acknowledge, is that if God issues commands or directives about certain elements of worship and tells us specifically how to go about them or conduct them, then for anyone to supplement or add to those directives or commands is pure arrogance that supercedes God and violates 1 Cor. 4:6. NOTHING may be added to God's commands that He has not otherwise authorized, neither does God need to make an exhaustive list of everything forbidden. By the very nature of His commands, everything else not authorized therein is EXCLUDED. Those who choose to forge ahead with unauthorized implementations put themselves in the place of God with the attitude of, "What God commanded is rather boring or unattractive, so we're gonna spruce things up a bit and help Him out by making His command more appealing to the masses." In the case of worship music, God commanded only vocal music in the NT; Servant and other liberals ADD or ENDORSE instruments, which are not authorized; their actions go beyond what is written in the NT.

Adding or endorsing instruments in worship is a denominational preference that some in the c of C have borrowed. It would be better if those people like Servant just packed up and left the c of C and joined the denominations, for they already possess a denominational spirit. As long as they remain in the c of C with such attitudes, they cause division, disharmony, and disruption by pushing denominational doctrines and creeds.

What people miss is explained by Stephen which got him murdered: he said that because of the idolatry at Mount Sinai God turned them over to worship the Starry Host. The king, kingdom and temple were part of the Gentile-like nation to which god finally abandoned them to the whims of erthly kings (senior preachers). All history knows that there was nothing in the monarchy period which was good: that is why the kings were selected to lead them into war, slavery and finally captivity and death:

"But, say they, it is written, 'All who were before the Lord's advent are thieves and robbers.'... The devil is called 'thief and robber;' having mixed false prophets with the prophets, as tares with the wheat. 'All, then, that came before the Lord, were thieves and robbers;' not absolutely all men, but all the false prophets, and all who were not properly sent by Him. For the false prophets possessed the prophetic name dishonestly, being prophets, but prophets of the liar.

"And the Shepherd, the angel of repentance, says to Hermes, of the false prophet: 'For he speaks some truths. For the devil fills him with his own spirit, If perchance he may be able to cast down any one from what is right. (Clement, Stromata, p. 319)

http://www.piney.com/MuEze13.html

Jochim and Boaz were in fact HERMAE or phallic symbols with the juices flowing out the top because THAT is what God abandoned them to. Maybe the lust for a new HERMEneutic is the MARK because it had NO HIGHER motive than to spread viper juice using NEW STYLE music from OLD STYLE Babylon. David is ALL they have!

That is why John refused to baptize the generation of vipers, Jesus refused to teach them and Peter said that we must be saved FROM that crooked generation. They were noted for wine, Skolion singing and perversion. Most would die along with their MEGA CHURCH along with their harps and harpists which they are still trying to find.

We know that the Abomination of Desolation in the Temple was Zeus and Dionysus or Bacchus worship and they PIPED hoping that John wore SOFT clothing and Jesus would sing and dance the Dionysus choral dance where the LAMENTING was a result of being INITIATED into their "brotherhood" and history knows that perversion permeated all priesthoods. Plutarch whom they used as authority to PLUCK the harp also demands that they PLUCK they "youth ministers of the gods" and also insists that the "god" worshipped by the Jews--even if they called Him Jehovah--was Dionysus. Paul warned not to "open" the worship because OUTSIDE there lurked DOGS and the CONCISION. These were the CATAMITES or male homosexuals and when a FALSE PROPHET proves to be so crooked that he can lie TO God and ABOUT god to "make a place in respected mainstream" for his musical pals this is the MARK you need to watch for.

If they REQUESTED and God abanded them to this worship according to Stephen and many Old Testament passages who can doubt the statement that the Greeks and the Jews fleeing Egypt brought the same "god" where the PLAY was musical idolatry which ignored the Word and INDUCED sexuality and perverted Sexuality. Romans 1 defines it and that is why Paul always MARKS the false religionism before he COMMANDS a SPEAKING form of teaching which EXCLUDES poetic speech (rhetoric) or music.

the Eleusinian. Thus "Bacchus was directly called upon," he says. The Sabazian worship was Sabbatic; the names Evius, or Hevius, and Luaios are identical with Hivite and Levite.

The French name Louis is the Hebrew Levi; Iacchus again is Iao or Jehovah; and Baal or Adon, like Bacchus, was a phallic god.

"Who shall ascend into the hill (the HIGH place) of the Lord?" asks the holy king David, "who shall stand in the place of his Kadushu [[Heb char]]"? (Psalms xxiv. 3). Kadesh may mean in one sense to devote, hallow, sanctify, and even to initiate or to set apart;

but it also means the ministers of lascivious rites (the Venus-worship Venus is Lucifer or ZOE) and the true interpretation of the word Kadeshis bluntly rendered in Deuteronomy xxiii. 17; Hosea iv. 14; and Genesis xxxviii., from verses 15 to 22.

There is NO doubt that this is what David fell into when removing the Ark of the Covenant from Gods TENT to the Jebusite High Place. He "praised" and confessed that he MADE HIMSELF VILE but the camp follower girls would HONOR HIM.

The "holy" Kadeshuth of the Bible were identical as to the duties of their office with the Nautch-girls of the later Hindu pagodas.

Deut 23:17 There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel.

Deut 23:18 Thou shalt not bring the hire of a whore, or the price of a DOG into the house of the Lord thy God for any vow: for even both these are abomination unto the Lord thy God.

Hos 4:14 I will not punish your daughters when they commit whoredom, nor your spouses when they commit adultery: for themselves are separated with whores, and they sacrifice with harlots: therefore the people that doth not understand shall fall.

The Hebrew Kadeshim or galli lived "by the house of the Lord, where the women wove hangings for the grove," or bust of Venus-Astarte, says verse the seventh in the twenty-third chapter of 2 Kings.

The dance performed by David round the ark was the "circle-dance" said to have been prescribed by the Amazons for the Mysteries. Such was the dance of the daughters of Shiloh (Judges xxi. 21, 23 et passim), and the leaping of the prophets of Baal (I Kings xviii. 26). It was simply a characteristic of the Sabean worship, for it denoted the motion of the planets round the sun.

That the dance was a Bacchic frenzy is apparent. Sistra were used on the occasion, and the taunt of Michael and the king's reply are very expressive. "The king of Israel uncovered himself before his maid-servants as one of the vain (or debauched) fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself." And he retorts: "I will play (act wantonly) before [[Heb char]], and I will be yet more vile than this, and I will be base in my own sight."

When we remember that David had sojourned among the Tyrians and Philistines, where their rites were common; and that indeed he had conquered that land away from the house of Saul, by the aid of mercenaries from their country, the countenancing and even, perhaps, the introduction of such a Pagan-like worship by the weak "psalmist" seems very natural. David knew nothing of Moses, it seems, and if he introduced the Jehovah-worship it was not in its monotheistic character, but simply as that of one of the many gods of the neighboring nations -- a tutelary deity to whom he had given the preference, and chosen among "all other gods."

It was GAD the STARGAZER and not a writing prophet used by God to speak to David when he was too fearful to return to Gibeon and when God gave him a Jebusite High Place for his GENTILE-LIKE capital. David wants to praise or MAKE HIMSELF VILE in the FIRMAMENT and that proves that as history knows the KINGDOM was devoted to Astrial or Star or Planet worship.

Not Impressed:
You said at the end of preferred way...
"1) that is authorized or (2) that it is not authorized—but not both.

How about
c)Use common sense

If God doesn't condemn with Scripture, then it is not condemnable.
Again, and again God tells us to sing, he doesn't tell us how.
He doesn't authorize PA systems but we use them. If God had not wanted us to use amplification of the voice, He would have specifically told us NOT TO do so. He did not, therefore we use them because it AIDS, and a PA system is a TOOL. Are you to also use the 'Generic Authority' phrase to tell me it is ok to use what you like, but not what some other man likes? How about Simon Says...where God tells us ONLY what is authorized, and anything else beyond that is disgraceful? So God doesn't tell us to use a PA system, but then again you could refer back to 'Generic Authority' for keeping orderly worship. Have you never heard a piano softly in the background that only enhances the voice? Not overpowering? When a piano is in tune and a musician that knows how to play it, it actually DOES keep better order than the voice alone. A piano keeps the vocalist/group in pitch and in tempo better than vocal only.
Now Impressed are you to show me the chart that has a piano as an ADDITION, then that same chart having a PA system, and books, and pews, buildings, etc. as TOOLS and AIDS?
How convenient. Again, just man masking his preferrences without Scriptural backing.
Sin also comes in with man condeming another man because another man doesn't follow his preferrences. If God doesn't condemn it then man has no right to do this also.
Did I leave anything out?

So Servant stubbornly holds that we can do or implement anything in worship that God doesn't forbid by name. According to that logic, if God issues a specific command and mentions a specific element, such as commanding vocal music, we can still add instruments, because God doesn't forbid instruments in the New Testament by name. According to that logic, God's silence is universally permissive, and the sky really is the limit. Yet Servant says to "use common sense."

"Common sense" is subject to all kinds of human aberrations. What is "common sense" to one is heresy to another. It's far better to observe 1 Cor. 4:6 and stay within the bounds of NT Scripture by not adding anything to what God has already commanded, regarding worship issues. That verse serves as a check and balance against using the "sky as the limit."

Remember the analogy I used about adding something else to the Lord's Supper besides bread and fruit of the vine? Let's say we wanted to add popcorn. Christ specified the emblems for the Supper but did not forbid popcorn by name. According to Servant's logic, we certainly can add popcorn, yet he would say that was not using common sense. Why? Because it pollutes the Lord's Supper perhaps? Right! No one would ever think of observing the LS by adding popcorn, because it would make a sham of the LS. So what's the difference in that principle and adding instruments to vocal music for worship? Because society has done it for hundreds of years and thinks it's "acceptable"? Instruments in Christian worship have NEVER been acceptable, because God did not authorize them in the NT.

Friends, we're not talking about what's accptable to the human mind. We're talking about what is acceptable and obedient to God's commands by not polluting them with man's selfish additions to satisfy his own pleasures. We don't add popcorn to the LS. We likewise don't add instruments to vocal music in worship, not because God forbids popcorn and instruments, but because He does not authorize them. We also do not add popcorn and instruments, because to add either one or both is to go beyond what is written in NT Scripture.

Yet the liberals, progressives, and postmodernists will continue to argue against 1 Cor. 4:6 until Doom's Day, because the only thing that would ever restrain them from adding what they wish to NT Scripture is if God actually catered to their whims and issued an exhaustive list of EVERYTHING on earth that was forbidden. And even then, there would be much searching for loopholes.

Bill:
Let's talk about the two men that did well with the talents from the parable of Jesus.
Were they instructed on how to use their talents? No Bill...they were not!
They were entrusted with property and money. They weren't told how to invest those talents though.
God gives us a command to sing. If we use our voice to please and praise Him, then He is happy.
What if we go UP and BEYOND that with praising Him with our talents of musical instrumentation?
If we have the talent and don't use it, or do not use it for the Glory of God, then we are like the third man who hid his talent and was told to thrown outside where therer will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Now Bill, that is common sense and definitely not a heresy. Do you always use book knowledge without common sense plodding through a career of medicine? I pray for those under your care if you do!
We also have an example of David in the OT. He gave ALL to the glory of God. Did God tell David that it wrong to use instruments of music. NO!!! God was Glorified because David LOVED GOD enough to use EVERYTHING in his being to Praise God. Bill, shove that aside because that is the OT, right? Cut that part out of the Word of God because even though it shows us by example how to really love our God it still is not part of our new covenant with Jesus and God. Please don't use Amos 6:5 and make mockery of the Word. It smiply doesn't apply. The church of Christ for years has used that passage for years. It is NOT condemning David. It talks about THOSE WHO WOULD USE them NOT to the GLORY of God.

Bill, common sense again....I have to bring it up again here, since we are going from jelly now to popcorn for substitutes for the cup during communion.
Refer back to my previous post about fruit of the vine being specific. If you tried your popcorn (or jelly), that would be using something beyond what was described or have example of. By the way, do we have an example of using either popcorn or jelly anywhere in the Scriptures for communion (It would have to be NT)?
Do we have any example of anyone using, and PLEASING God with the instrument in the Scriptures.
Maybeeeeeeeeeeee King David???
Use your Generic Authority Bill and the old chart to tell me how a piano is an addition to God's Word, and how a PA system and church buildings are TOOLS and AIDS.
Now THAT is heresy!
Yours and others preferrences. You even admitted to it in a previous post. PREFERRENCE.
The sin comes in when you try to rewrite the Word of God and make instrumental music sin where God has not.
I remember someone once upon a time telling me how God doesn't tell us that crack of cocaine is not a specified Scriptural sin.
Let us revisit the common sense theme again.
Our bodys are temples to the Lord.
Crack is bad for the body.
Crack is sin.
Instruments are also not mentioned as sin in the Scriptures. Are they unhealthy to our bodies like crack?
Have we ever seen anyone use them, LIKE KING DAVID, to Praise God?
See Bill, common sense was applied by the men with the talents and we CAN and SHOULD still use it today.
Common sense used to LOVE God more!
What a wonderful notion and idea!!!
Maybe I could patent it.

Not Impressed,
You seem typical of many of the C of Cer's I know. You don't really have a firm scriptural reason for not wanting instruments, but you fear it may lead to "other things" like rock music, dancers, fireworks, juggling monkeys, who knows what?

I worship in a church with instrumentsl music. Some of it may even be classified as "rock" music. But like God, it's not the style of music, but the words that are important to us. You should try it.

By the way, billcrump- You might want to stop using I Cor.4:6 as an example to teach us to follow the New Testament because Paul says there, not to "go beyond what is written". The only New Testament books written before I Corinthians, are I & II Thessalonians, Galatians, and possibly James. So, I'm sure Paul was telling the church in Corinth not to go beyond what was written in those 4 books. I'm positive he was talking about the modern day New Testament when he said that.

It's weird. You would think that when God inspired him to write that, he would have been more specific and said, "Don't go beyond what has been written, and will be written, and will one day be one of the 66 books that is the sum total of all I have to say to you, and all men from now until the end of time." Oh well, I guess that's why he sent guys like you, to interpret for Him. Thanks billcrump!

Servant:

You said, “If God doesn't condemn with Scripture, then it is not condemnable.” Do you believe this because you think that God doesn’t condemn you for expressing such an unfounded assertion? Where is your evidence for making such a declaration—give me B-C-V (is it found in the book of Servant 199:99)? Anyone can easily deduce from YOUR viewpoint that since God doesn’t condemn a punk heavy metal rock or rap artist performing in front of your congregation where you serve as an elder, that it is OK with your approval but not God’s approval?

When you start listing items such as a PA system, a projector, air conditioning, pews, etc., to support your argument for unauthorized uses, it really weakens YOUR OPINION or VIEWPOINT. Common sense will tell you that these technologies weren’t in existence at the time of the apostles and the early Christians; but there were already musical instruments at the time—and they were available but NOT USED.

Just as expected, you mentioned the piano. Were there pianos during David’s era? Maybe … maybe not. Besides, based on your reliance upon the Scripture [which is good] to comply with what’s specifically mentioned, as well as to comply with what’s NOT specifically mentioned, I find it negligent and evasive on your part to say NOTHING concerning the list of instruments. The basic question was—why are you not abiding by what’s specifically listed in Psalm 150:

— sound of the trumpet
— psaltery
— harp
— timbrel
— stringed instruments
— organs
— loud cymbals
— high sounding cymbals

Wouldn’t you use ALL of the instruments listed above? Remember that they are “scriptural,” according to you—not to mention that you don’t seem to know and understand what “rightly dividing the word of truth” really means. It is obvious that you are guilty of both adding to and subtracting from God’s Word.

Keep in mind, Servant, it is my understanding that Madison’s elders have conveyed the message to their congregation that the church will never go instrumental. Of course, time will tell if that message is going to change and if their elders decide to implement or ADD musical instruments to their worship. And here you are—another elder who is promoting this man-contrived “preference.”

I honestly believe that your advice to “use common sense” is applicable to you. You are engendering confusion and disunity in churches of Christ. And, yes, not only did you leave out a lot—you also added a lot to God’s directives for the church.

At least I impressed on you enough to perhaps see that you are holding onto an archaic way of thinkg, perhaps?
Change can be good Impressed, even with the church....did I say anything about changing the Word of God? Thank you !!!
You are bent towards saying that you thought a heavy dose of common sense would help here, but you didn't show any. If I have already said that a piano played softly in the background just as a PA system not turned up to overpower the speaker or song leader works, does that give way to your thinking of loud headbanging music??? If you spew inuindos about common sense then use none, then perhaps you say one thing but mean something else!
A person can hear, but not listen....wouldn't you say that is right Impressed?
Thank you again!!!
Where is the confusion now? That line, Impressed, about the Punk Rockers performing is called GRANDSTANDING, and that would be better fitted for the National Enquirer or Star magazine, as it would make good sensationalism.
No Impressed, the lining up of PA system, and buildings does NOT weaken my argument. I am not against these, but these are unncessdary for a spiritual worship to God. Yes, you can say that the piano is not necessary either. But just as I told Bill we are given talents to use the best way possible. PA systems AID.....just as the piano AIDS our worship. Is it time for YOU to pull out the chart with telling me about piano being an ADDITION where a PA systems is an AID? Don't bother. They are BOTH AIDS, and you know it!
What IS WEAK Impressed is that you could only come up with the piano being not mentioned in the Old Testament. David used instruments of music, and you KNOW that is the point! You mentioned that the technology of PA systems were not available during the first century church but avoided the fact that the piano was not an instument of David's time. Let's see Impressed....PA systems not mentioned in the Scriptures but ok to use them today (because the technology wasnt't in place), but pianos not being mentioned anywhwere either means they aren't authorized. PAs are good, pianos are bad. Hmmmm, yes, how convenient!
I asked this bunch here Impressed to prove to me where instruments of music were not used in the first century church. They could not. I even quoted one of the early historians that they used (Clemente) as saying that there was no blame if instruments were to be used in the service.
All of the historians that they quoted spoke of how they disliked the instrument themselves, and how they PREFERRED the vocal instrument best of all. NONE of these historians could prove without a shadow of a doubt that the Aposles, and the first century churches DID not use them. The history that I have read about is that the instuments of the first century were expensive to make from expensive wood and not likely to have been used because of the COST, not because they were condemned.
Above ALL Impressed, I could see that you don't PREFER instruments of music, just as I don't. I also see where you are not here to discuss if instruments of music are authorized are not, but here for a good argument. Why would I say that? When you talked about me sticking to the instruments that David ONLY used you showed your true colors. GRANDSTANDING again!!! The line about me both adding to and taking away from the Word sounds a bit like what Jesus had to deal with the Pharisees. Jesus didn't care to even argue with them, because like you, you aren't in it to promote the love of the cross or to build up the church, but to TRY to tear it down. Notice Impressed....I used the word TRY. God will not let it happen!
So go on about your merry ways Impressed, try and judge those things that you should not. I don't care for anything but acappela when it comes to worship of the Father. I WILL NOT however try to take God's place and become Judge on things for which God should only be allowed to Judge. Let Him do that when He sends His Son again. I know that when you speak of instrumental music as sin, you are in DEEP trouble. You have overstepped your boundary my friend. You make something a sin that God has not. I will pray for your very soul!!!

Not Impressed said of Servant: "When you start listing items such as a PA system, a projector, air conditioning, pews, etc., to support your argument for unauthorized uses, it really weakens YOUR OPINION or VIEWPOINT."

Liberals like Servant and others commonly use this kind of vain argument to support the use of instruments, which are also not authorized in the New Testament. Yet we have no problem with utilizing incidentals like PA systems, projectors, pews, and other items in worship. Why is that?

What liberals like Servant and others cannot or will not fathom is that these incidentals neither contradict nor interfere with doctrinal commands about worship that God has set forth in the NT. As I've said before, Christians do have certain liberties in worship, but those liberties must neither add to nor supplement God's existing commands. God has been quite specific about certain worship issues, such as vocal music and the Lord's Supper. Therefore, we cannot add to or supplement what He has already commanded and still remain obedient to Him (1 Cor. 4:6). For example, we can add neither instruments to singing nor popcorn to the LS and still remain obedient to Him. God never issued any commands about incidentals like pews and PA systems for the simple reason that, even had they been available in the first century, they would not have interferred with God's worship doctrine as set forth in the NT; neither do those incidentals interfere with God's worship doctrine today.

The liberals, progressives, and postmodernists have expended too much time and energy searching for shortcuts around God's NT commands or new ways to rewrite them. Their lives would be much simpler and happier if they would just trust God's Word as is and obey it faithfully.

Bill:
You would call me a liberal and you and others here make instruments of music a sin where God does not???
I am the liberal?
You trying to rewrite the dictionary along with the Scriptures too?

Servant keeps insisting that we make instruments a sin when God does not. Servant keeps ignoring 1 Cor. 4:6, which commands us not to go beyond what is written in Scripture. (Again, that “Scripture” is the New Testament, for Christ nailed the Old Law, the Old Testament, to the cross--Col. 2:14). 1 Cor. 4:6 certainly applies to God’s commands: We are not to go beyond what is written in God’s commands. The principle of that verse tells us that adding to, supplementing, or enhancing any of God’s commands with our own preferences is a sin. By application, the principle of that verse holds that adding instruments when God has specifically commanded us to sing and make melody in our hearts is a sin. That principle of that verse also clearly implies that God’s commands need not list everything forbidden, for anything that man adds on to God's specific commands is prohibited and therefore a sin. Adding instruments is therefore a sin. God’s own principle in 1 Cor. 4:6 certifies that. We conservatives in the c of C did not make that up, contrary to what many believe.

Now if Servant still has problems with what God has commanded; if he cannot accept the principles that God has set forth in the NT, then I would advise him to take it up with God privately and waste no more time pitching his vain and useless arguments on this site.

The Psalms were mostly War Chants or Parade Songs to be chanted to praise or "make self vile" in order to drive the enemy into cowardice and panic. They have value as TEACHING but one would never use them as authority for the ekklesia or synagogue which EXCLUDED praise songs. One might use them if they wanted to start a WORSHIP WAR or make themselves look like fools to keep people away:

"The name of psaltery entered Christian literature in the 3rd century B.C. translation of the Old Testament called the Septuagint where, in the Psalms, nebel was translated psalterion. Thus, Nebuchadnezzar's idolatrous ensemble included the Aramic psantria. Notice, also, that the book of Psalms has also become known as the Psalter (or psalterium), from the hymns sung with this harp.

NEBUCHADNEZZAR the king made an image of gold, whose height was threescore cubits (60), and the breadth thereof six (6) cubits: he set it up in the plain of Dura (circle), in the province of Babylon. Dan 3:1

That at what time ye hear the sound of the (1) cornet, (2) flute, (3) harp, (4) sackbut, (5) psaltery, (6) dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king hath set up: Dan 3:5

Psaltery reminds us of a NEW WINESKIN religion which is made of THAT WHICH DIED OF ITSELF:

Nebel (h5035) neh'-bel; or nebel nay'-bel; from 5034; a skin- bag for liquids (from collapsing when empty); hence a vase (as similar in shape when full); also a lyre (as having a body of like form): - bottle, pitcher, psaltery, vessel, viol

Nabel (h5034) naw-bale'; a prim. root; to wilt; gen. to fall away, fail, faint; fig. to be foolish or (mor.) wicked; causat. to despise, disgrace: - disgrace, dishonour, lightly esteem, fade (away, - ing), fall (down, -ling, off), do foolishly, come to nought, * surely, make vile, wither..

Nabal (h5036) naw-bawl'; from 5034; stupid; wicked (espec. impious): - fool (-ish, -ish man, -ish woman), vile person.

Just like the instrument of the Witch of Endor as SORCERER.

H178 'ôb obe From the same as H1 (apparently through the idea of prattling a father's name); properly a mumble, that is, a water skin (from its hollow sound); hence a necromancer (ventriloquist, as from a jar):--bottle, familiar spirit.

Sounding brass is a hi-tek Familiar Spirit

G2278 Echeo ay-k; hroar, sound.

G2279 echos ay'-khos Of uncertain affinity; a loud or confused noise ("echo"), that is, roar; figuratively a rumor:fame, sound

Of the flute or organ connected with the Hypocrites in the passages Jesus pointed to:

"Its (pipe = to love passionately) was apparently a secular instrument and is never listed in the temple orchestra; only in Ps. 150:4 it is mentioned in a religious (but not ritual) function. Its ethos was not blameless at all, as we see from Genesis Rabbah 50:

'The angels said to Lot: 'There are players of the pipe (organ) in the country, hence it ought to be destroyed'." Its rabbinical identification with the aboda, the flute of the notorious Syrian bayaderes, emphasizes the erotic element which already the Hebrew name suggests." (Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, p. 460, Abingdon).

Horace:

Tempt Faunus from his Grecian seat;
He keeps my little goats in bliss [capella=She Goats]
Apart from wind, and rain, and heat.

Tempt Faunus from his Grecian seat;
He keeps my little goats in bliss [capella=She Goats]
Apart from wind, and rain, and heat.

Or uncover what is hidden in the verdure of thy shade!
Silence thou thy savage cymbals, and the Berecyntine horn;
In their train Self-love still follows, dully, desperately blind,
And Vain-glory, towering upwards in its emptyheaded scorn,
And the Faith that keeps no secrets, with a window in its mind.

Impressed:
You sound like Mike Dugger, but I don't think that you would tell me if it is you. That is ok. The reason why I believe it might be Mike is because it sounds a bit like his reasoning, or lack thereof.
When you bring up bringing in living aminmials into the assembly for praise based on Psalms 150 I know that you aren't in this for the Truth. You are in it just for arguments sake.
You also said that you didn't intend to make me angry about the punk rockers who wish to perform praise songs for me or my church. Well Impressed, sounds like the Enquirer mentallity again....I wasn't angry and by my writing how could you tell that I would have been? Did you conjure up in your mind that my face was getting red, or by something I wrote perhaps showed anger?
Truly good showboating Impressed. You deserve your name!!!
I said nothing about wanting instruments of music in our congregation. Where in my writings did I say anything about wanting punk rockers to perform for us?
You must know Mike Dugger. It sounds JUST LIKE him. Not in it for the Truth, just out to showboat. Oh, by the way...the Old Testament Chrisitans was good too. Nice touch! Do you cut the Old Testament part out of your Bible too?
You never did explain to me why you thought David, who used instruments, pleased God with such? These instruments are similiar to, as you say, lifeless pianos. I would say that a harp and trumpet are lifeless too, wouldn't you? So how did David take these lifeless instruments and Praise Godz? Wonder why David was so loved by God? Lets see now....David had a talent to play these instruments, and he used them to the Glory of God.
Nope, it certainly couldn't be that. Impressed, I just don't know.
Wanted to congratulate you too Impressed on the adding, subtracting, and dividing that you so aptly suggested that I do.
I am guite good at math so I will say thank you for that.
Speaking of math, how about that church you attend. Is it fostering growth? I believe that could be addition and multiplication, or not! Perhaps you do things the same old way, with the same old songs??? You have a huge youth group there? All of you are in harmony there in that you agree that you have always done it that way and that way is good enough today. If they don't like it they don't need to grace the steps of your church??? Sound close Impressed?
You talk to each other and retort on how the Gospel hasn't change one bit! You believe that just because you can't see a spurt in numbers and havning people being won over by the Gospel that you present... well this has no relation to the fact that you might NEED to change something.
Now, asy you say Impressed, not meaning to get you mad now!
You believe that it has everything to do with them liking your PREFERRENCES, and not changing to what they might PREFER. That would NEVER happen.
You would let the church die out before that EVER happened, right?
Even if the preferrences of others did not violate the Scriptures?
Impressed, that is why you come up with ANYTHING and everything that you can possibly think of to GET YOUR WAY. It doesn't matter that all you are talking about is what you PREFER. That is why you talk of "SPEAKING" to yourselves in psalms, and hymns.....in Ephesians as being ONLY acapella.
Speaking doesn't exclude instruments, but since you don't see instruments listed you grab hold of that and make it your dagger. A dagger Impressed, not the Spiritual Sword that it should be. You want to make the Word of God something that it is not....you try to make it a weapon instead of an instrument of Love that Jesus presented.
Now you can tell me about using the Word of God for rebuke??? I look forward to it Impressed.
Can you not SPEAK to one another with an instrument being in the background. You can now tell me how an intrument is for entertaining the masses, not God.
Ya see Impressed, I have heard it all!!! I mean ALL!!!
You haven't told me one thing new, it is still the same song and dance trying to mask your PREFERRENCES.
In one of the threads here Impressed, Donnie Cruz said that the Praise or Worship Leader had stepped down from Madison.
See ya Mike, and YOU ALSO have a wonderful day!!! Excuse me, did I say Mike?

Unity in the church will only come from us loving each other.
Sounds simple, eh?
You want to know about division Mike?
Stay here at this forum long enough!
They have it down to an art here!

The Not impressed guy isn't Mike. IP's don't match.

Alas, Servant is still pitching the "same ole same ole" vain and useless arguments. Being a member of the c of C (yet he's a denominational sympathizer), Servant knows that adding instruments to what God has already commanded, that adding what God has not authorized in His command, is a sin, yet his preference for instruments restrains him from acting on the TRUTH.

So Servant ends his diatribe by switching the subject to "unity," claiming that the only way for Christians to have unity is if we "love" each other. Actually, discussing the sin of adding instruments has nothing to do with whether we "love" each other or not, and Servant knows that as well. But it's a typical tactic of liberals like Servant to divert the subject to something else when the liberals know that they have completely lost the argument.

Very well, I'll play along, since we've come full circle with the instruments business anyway; further "discussion" about that would merely perpetuate the Fruity Loop and accomplish nothing more. About "unity," I'll just briefly comment that the only way to have spiritual unity is for all Christians to ditch their smorgasbord of man-contrived, denominational doctrines and follow Christ and the New Testament faithfully as He originally commanded us (Matt. 28:20). In other words, there will never be any unity in the Church as long as the denominations are extant. Furthermore, there will never be any unity as long as denominational sympathizers like Servant within the c of C continue to create havoc and division by endorsing denominational practices like adding instruments to worship.

I recommend that any further discussion of "unity" be reserved for a new thread, which Servant is certainly welcome to create (if the moderators so approve).

The word ORGANON is a machine for doing HARD WORK or producing shock and awe.
This includes musical INSTRUMENTS (machines, weapons)
They are for doing ERGON or WORK
Therefore, by definition, a musical instrument and a weapon are defined by the same Hebrew word
A lifeless instrument and a Carnal Weapon have much the same meaning.

Therefore, anyone who uses machines to ENHANCE the effect of the WORD are defined
as legalists: the word is NOMOS which applied to the musical WORK of the Muses
spreading the Laws of Apollo (Apollyon or Satan).

All of the SPEAK words as defined by the known literature excludes
both POETRY and MUSIC (The bible is NOT metrical in the poetic sense)
Therefore, the word SPEAK--for those who depend on language--EXCLUDES music
No one missed that in the unlearned age for almost 400 years.

The word WIZARD or ENCHANTER excludes arosal singing and instruments.
The serpent in the Garden is defined as a Musical Enchanter.
The "familiar spirit" of the Witch of Endor was a musical empty wineskin
it had the same meaning as the NEBEL or PSALTER meaning to "make vile"
and the sounding bronze in 1 cor 13 which were used for witchcraft, warfare
or as a virtual pipe-organ in the theaters.

Jesus CAST OUT the musical minstrels LIKE DUNG and compared that
crooked generation to children in the marketplace or Agora trying to subvert
people into naughty acts.

John identified the singers and instrumentalists in Revelation 18 as SORCERERS
who HAD deceived the whole world. Now, it would be LEGALISM to demand a law
which says THOU SHALT NOT BE A SORCERER using musical instruments. But
the warning against MIND ALTERING in the Old Testament DOES outlaw the
DEVICES used to put the mind into a limp-noodle stage always the mark of effeminacy.

If someone brought a band of whiney-piney, wheezy brother singers into the Physics
class where you came to learn Physicals and deamdad a law which says:
Thou shalt not solicit in physics class we would think that person searching butn
not able to come to a knowledge of the truth.

The writing prophets condemned instruments as both a SIGN and CAUSE of
the Word of God being silenced. The result was that ignorant lambs went to the
slaughter by "IDOL shepherds" whos "instruments" are defined as MUSICAL.
If the evidence is 100% that instruments say to God: "Go away" and we still
demand a law which saith "thou shalt not say to God GO AWAY" then I would
just eat drink and make Mary as the Book of Enoch says of those who were
seduced into choirs and instruments by Satan identified as the CAUSE of the fall.

Mike does not visit this site.

Thanks Tom and Brite....
It just sounded like him for sure. There are a several out there that think like that.

Oh yea Donnie.....don't look for a response to any of your MANY Pharisee like attacks.
The one I saw that was VERY hyprocritical, but not surprising, went something like...
"No … you are not achieving unity by compromising the truth. Instead, you are fostering division in the body of Christ."
Did you forget Donnie, these proclaimations from you about the church YOU attend?
'look at what is a happening at Madison.'
'Peck's son-in-law, the praise leader, is leading the worship service down the wrong path with the use of microphones....Entertainment instead of Worship indeed'
'the madison marcher has pictured on the front cover member with guitar at tea time'
Did you have amnesisa Donnie?
How about the continuous and numerous attacks on the Elders and ministers?
Aren't you embarrassed to even worship there Donnie?
Can you actually look those members in the eye tomorrow when you see them at Bible study and the worship hour(s)?
Donnie, please feel free to edit this, but THIS site is a blight on the church?
Ask me to be nice again, ok???
Even a lot of the fundamentalists and conservatives feel the same way about this site.
Here comes the BIG ONE Donnie.....I really didn't know nor care that it was Mike Dugger, but hope that you would take it hook, line, and sinker.
You know how Mike and I arugued point after point at Faithsite...and how he thought and complained about my teachings.
EVEN MIKE, a true fundamentalist, is too embarrassed to come here.
He isn't the only one Donnie.

Not Impressed:
And you probably will never be...
And as you say..."If not, further conversation with you may be futile."
And it certainky has been so far and will probably continue to be....
Of all that you said Not Impressed and Never will be, this comes to the forefront....your preferrence of "being silent when the Bible is silent"
That speaks VOLUMES and VOLUMES of what you think. That statement or phrase ALONE shows how tradition matters more than the Truth. You think that by quoting that phrase often enough you and those like you can halt any change in the church. It has nothing to do with Scripturality, just using a man made notion to hold onto tradition. I was raised in a church that believed that, and I questioned it. No one could make much sense of it or explain it then, and you you bring to light the total ineptitude of it.
'Silent where the Bible is silent' eh?
That wouldn't be a spark off of CENI, I gather?
Since we know very little of how the first century church worshipped CENI goes along with your high and mighty 'silent' phrase. You may want silence when it comes to instruments, but then you gather together another phrase of 'generic authourity' to cover any further additions. NOW THESE additions, though not spoke of in the NT covenant for our perusing are ok because they bring about 'orderly worship.' So what is an addition, and what is an aid?
A piano is an addition, right? Wrong!
A PA system is an AID and TOOL, right? Yes, and so is a piano. ( I would have you to refer back to past posts, but we have already done so)
Not Impressed, what it comes down to is this...You don't want change, and you will do ANYTHING to resist it....even to the point where you conjur up man made phrases to do so.
If you don't like it, then go or start a church where there are others who worship as you do. If you decide to stay where you are at then get ready for CHANGE...and quit belly aching about it.
Change IS HAPPENING, and IS SCRIPTURAL.
You spoke of, towards the last of your retort, my options about instrumental music. How about me CHANGING those options to ADD one more.
The church of our Lord Jesus will be STRONG! The same Lord that you and I both claim as Savior will not allow it to be wrecked! Some of the changes that I see are not altogether what I want. As long as they are not anti Scriptural I just may have to live with some of them....and SO WILL YOU.

SPEAK WHERE THE BIBLE IS SILENT, AND BE SILENT WHERE THE BIBLE SPEAKS...ever heard of that one???

Also, I did reply to your accusations of Psalms 150. Perhaps it slipped your eye....conveniently?

Not Impressed:
I see someone to be a bit upset, but then again you should be. Hanging onto man made concepts to hold onto your tradition....your PREFERRENCES.

CENI, by the way, is very helpful in our breaking down the ins and outs of how and what the first century church did, but in the hands of liberals such as yourself it can be down right sinful. You use it not for good, but for benefit of masking your PREFERRENCES as the ONLY right way. It is NOT!
Also, why not take your 'group' apart from the change (as you call it) and be happy with what you like. You could call it a new name....the Tradiditional church of Christ, the Fundamentalist church of Christ, etc., and therefore avoid trouble with the regulars. YES Not Impressed, the REGULARS are the church of Christ. The real church will not take something like 'speak' to each other in songs and hymns... and twist that into sinful interlude for those who accompany that with instrumental music.
If being "silent where the Bible is silent" has a lot to do with scriptuality then please show book, chapter, and verse. I will await your reply.
Again, PREFERRENCE....just as when I say 'speak where the Bible is silent, and be silent where the Bible speaks.
If the Bible gives instruction, then we KNOW what to do. If it does not (such as NOT telling us HOW to sing) then we should use a bit of common sense and a lot of love, like the NT DOES INSTRUCT US TO DO.
LOVE, Not Impressed, rules out your spitting on others' preferrence.

Oh yea, the PA is helping make a melody in your heart also, right?
WRONG!
Oh, and for all your hoopala about punk rockers performing, love will take care of that too. We have already spoken of how a piano played so it COMPLIMENTS the voice. You said, perhaps some strings played softly in the background...good one I say!
I also mentioned, which I am sure you forgot, that punk rock loud music would not be conducive to Praising our God. Hence, you didn't really forget, but alas are just hanging on to old futile arguments, and hence a lack of common sense. Am I getting close?
Let's try it again....
Piano or strings (or perhaps both) played softly in the background to COMPLIMENT the voice (just as a PA does), OR
Playing LOUD punk rock, or head banging music that is so loud and obtrusive that you couldn't worship God in any way.

Yea....I can see where both are similiar....NO NO NO

But again, you aren't making much sense anyway so why not go for broke, right?

Oh yea, and I forgot too Not Impressed.....if you add a piano, then it will lead to an orchestra, then Rock music, then punk rock , then what???
NO again Not Impressed.
Why doesn't it lead to your punk rocking music?
See aforementiond LOVE, and COMMON SENSE principle.
Hey, always feel free to call me a busybody....I appreciate it.
I will always be such for our Lord and God!
You can bank on it friend!!!

Servant said: "Change IS HAPPENING, and IS SCRIPTURAL."

Yes, changes in the Church are certainly happening, but are those changes really scriptural as Servant boldly claims? He doesn't cite any "scriptural" references to support that claim. It's as if whatever man desires to change in the Church becomes "scriptural."

The Bible, however, does mention a few things about "change":

*The Lord does not change (Mal. 3:6). That is, the perfect character and infinite righteousness of the Lord do not change.

*The unrighteousness of man changed the truth of God into a lie, such that God gave them over to their lusts (Romans 1:17-32).

*Our bodies shall be changed from corruptible to incorruptible at the last day (Philippians 3:31; 1 Cor. 15:51-52).

*The change from the Old Covenant of Moses to the New Covenant in Christ, Who made a better testament (Hebrews 7:11-28).

*Believers in the Scriptures behold the glory of God and are changed into the image of God (2 Cor. 3:18).

*A new heaven and a new earth (Rev. 21:1).

*Stay within the bounds of what is written in Scripture (1 Cor. 4:6). That is, do not change, alter, or embellish the Word of God.

*Do not add to or take away from the Word of God (Deut. 4:2; Rev. 22:18-19). That is, do not change, alter, or embellish the Word of God.

These are the scriptural changes that the Bible authorizes; a few remain for a future time. Yet it is evident that those people who endorse and support the modern Change Movement do indeed change the Word by adding to, implementing, and embellishing whatever they desire to God's commands, when God has not authorized those changes. If God issues a command, all things not specified within that command are forbidden; it is superfluous for Him to forbid everything else by name, for He expects us to trust Him at His Word. This is so, because the New Testament clearly teaches the principle that if we add anything more to what God has already specified in His commands, we do sin.

Therefore, as far as the modern Church and the Change Movement are concerned, the unrighteousness of man has changed the truth of God into a lie, and God has given them over to their lusts (Romans 1:17-32).

It is a fact that God IS SILENT to those who once repudiate His Word: He sends them strong delusions and ALL of the musical words were known to bring on delusions so that the corrupters of the Word (selling at retail) could fool the fools that that feeling--even puking while doing the David dance--could be sold to the Gullible Travelers in say Corinth and strip the men of their living before they could make it to the next ship: Paul marked the MAD WOMEN because history notes that only drunks or gender-bleeds would sing AND play at the same time.

The NIV is a commentary and is loaded PRO music and ANTI baptism because it is the opinon of various pseudo-scholars to make an easy-reading version for PROFIT. The word MUSIC is used only twice in the New Testament: the first would demand singing AND dancing as the Greek for "music" demands. The second speaks of the MUSES in Revelation 18 who along with the instrument players and others are called by John SORCERERS who HAD DECEIVED the whole World. John prophesied of them being UNLEASED in the end times which seems like now since ALL bible-based groups have been taken captive and afflicted by professional musicians. The word psallo is never translated MELODY that I can find. Melody is the Greek MELOS and does not appear in th

Ep.5:19 SPEAKING to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs,
singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Speak..........psalms and hymns and spiritual songs.........to yourselves

SiING and makING melody .........in your HEART..........to God

In English the present participles places BOTH the singing and melody IN THE HEART which is a place: that is because singing is always enchantment or in John's words SORCERY. Melody as in PSALLO is a warfare word MARKING Apollo (Abaddon or Apollyon) who is the "father of the twanging bow to send singing arrows into your heart, of musical harmony, of thieves and of liars. No one used that as proof until the year 1878. And it took a hundred years before people dared used it again to sow discord. It took almost 400 years to quit (in some trouble spots) SPEAKING and begin SINGING to themselves.

Sing and speak are radically different forms of making SOUNDS: The text ALL TEXT reads SPEAK so Paul never said SING PSALMS to yourselves.

Laleo (g2980) lal-eh'-o; a prol. form of an otherwise obsol. verb; to talk, i.e. utter words: - preach, say, speak (after), talk, tell, utter. Comp. 3004.

Logik-os, ( [logos] )
A. of or for speaking or speech, merê l. the organs of speech, Plu.Cor.38: logikê, hê, speech, OPPOSITE to mousikê,
Lego (g3004) leg'-o; a prim. verb; prop. to "lay" forth, i.e. (fig.) relate (in words [usually of systematic or set discourse

Lalia is loquacity in DIALECTS and never GIBBERISH.

You cannot DISCOURSE with music because it "lacks persuasiveness" or as Justin interpreted Amos they THOUGHT that it had an abiding presence when it was just FLEETING PLEASURE. Music goes in one ear and out the other. That is because its driving purpose is to shut down your rational hemisphere so the poison will go down.

Colossians 3 is a parallel statement proving that WORD means SPIRIT because Jesus said 'my WORDS are Spirit and Life' after He said "the flesh counts for nothing." That is why Jesus LIMITED and Paul commanded worship in the PLACE of the human spirit as it meets the MIND OF CHRIST in the Written words of the Living Word.

Col.3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; TEACHING and ADMONISHING one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with GRACE in your hearts to the Lord.

This was the DIRECT COMMAND for the assembly or church in the wilderness when BOTH instrumental and vocal "making a joyful noise before the Lord were outlawed" because the Qahal was for INSTRUCTIONS only and because you cannot REST, READ and REHEARSE the Word of God when someone has stirred up your flesh with a drug-high where music SPECIFICIALLY creates the impulses of FIGHT or FLIGHT. The Greek literature knew it to produce panic or fear.
The latin--where its Rommans 15 radically outlaws ALL of the mental-excitement rituals such as loud speaking, singing, dancing or drama--reads:

Eph 5: [19]WEB loquentes vobismet ipsis in psalmis et hymnis et canticis spiritalibus cantantes et psallentes in cordibus vestris Domino

Loquor

1. [Sanscr. lap-, to talk, WHISPER to speak, talk, say (in the lang. of common life, in the tone of conversation;
A. To speak, declare, show, indicate or express clearly

Erasmus and the TR and the KJV relied heavily on the Latin Vulgate and used the word SPEAK in the place of LOQUENTES which is NOT singing with or without instruments.
Sermo
I.a speaking or talking with any one; talk, conversation, discourse. B. In part: 1. Literary conversation, discourse, disputation, discussion
b. Concr., a talk, speech, discourse (more informal and unpretending than oratio): [Oratio is defined as feminine and as THE primary definition of HYPOCRITE]
2.Ordinary speech, speaking, talking, the language of conversation (opp. contentio) Of prose as opposed to poetry:
3. With reference to some particular object, common talk respecting any thing, report,

Paul didn't PREACH until midnight: the word is DIALOG and elsewhere when Paul teaches the word is COMMUNE. A sermon is a LECTURE a studied least effective and most costly. The message beginning with the serpent which was both phallic and the Musical Enchanter is that music takes away the rational mind so that you cannot doubt people when they CANNOT see words like SPEAK without translating them into MAKE MUSIC. That's the program and there is such overwhelming evidence that it is MUSIC which the BEAST uses to SEAL his own seed: Zoe is called the "beast and female instructing principle" and that is why Paul understood more of the parable nature of Genesis than we do: a parable being a "superior form of speech" and in the Words of Jesus it was to hide the truth from those who did not LOVE truth. That was the CROOKED GENERATION which is defined as the gender-stressed Skolion singers and instrument players to make the wine go down.

I quote Bill Crump...
"*Stay within the bounds of what is written in Scripture (1 Cor. 4:6). That is, do not change, alter, or embellish the Word of God.

This is the KJV of what I Corinthians 4:6. You do like the KJV I understand Bill?
6And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

Now how does THAT Scripture quoted from the KJV compare to what you quoted?
Let's talk about embellishing, shall we?

Since Servant is having trouble understanding 1 Cor. 4:6, and since he would never accept anything I say, I'll quote the commentary from the Nelson Study Bible, New King James Version (1997), about this verse as pertains to "what is written":

"Paul was exhorting the Corinthians not to go beyond the teachings of Scripture. Then they would avoid the pride and divisions that were fracturing their church. A true minister of God's Word will use Scripute to unify and strengthen the church. Only those who want to exalt themselves will misuse Scripture and thus weaken and divide the church."

And here's a commentary from the King James Study Bible (1988):

"Paul is telling the Corinthians not to go beyond Scripture. In other words, learn to live by the Book, and stop following men."

These two commentaries neither add to nor embellish what the verse says. They simply explain it exactly for those who cannot understand the eloquent, formal language of 1611 England.

There are certainly divisions created in the Church today by people who insist on adding instruments to God's command to sing and make melody in the heart, when God never authorized instruments in the New Testament. Such people allow their pride to weaken the Church through their preferences for instruments, which create discord among the faithful who have rightly discerned that it is wrong to go beyond what is written in the New Testament. As I've said over and over again, God doesn't need to forbid instruments by name, because God through Paul in 1 Cor. 4:6 already forbids us to go beyond what God has already commanded. God commanded only vocal music; He did not command instruments in Christian worship. Those who presume to go beyond what is written in the New Testament by adding instruments defy God's command. There's no other word to describe defying God than "sin." It's as simple as that. I'm so very sorry if Servant cannot or will not accept this, but it is what the New Testament teaches.

Isn't that What Paul directly commanded when he told them to "speak the same thing" by speaking "that which is written" or 'Scripture" using one MIND and one MOUTH? He said that educates, glorifies God, comforts through Scripture and keeps the unity. The Bible is the only resource for "speaking" that a group wanting to be CHRISTIAN has available. Use it or lose it.

I can just imagine Servant denying the two commentaries I quoted, claiming that they were probably written by members of the church of Christ. Of the list of editors and contributors published with each of those two Bibles, not one credential there even remotely suggests membership in the church of Christ. The contributors are theologians from denominational seminaries.

Perhaps Servant should consider 1 Cor. 4:6 from a parallel Bible that puts the King James text beside the New Living Translation (1996). The NLT states:

"Dear brothers and sisters, I have used Apollos and myself to illustrate what I've been saying. If you pay attention to the Scriptures, you won't brag about one of your leaders at the expense of another."

This NLT adds a footnote explaining that "If you pay attention to the Scriptures" means "You must learn not to go beyond 'what is written.'"

Servant is fighting a losing battle here.

Hey Bill:
Let us try THIS explanation for a DIFFERENT commentary (John Gill)
"that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is
written:"
meaning, either in the word of God in general; or in some particular passages of Scripture he might have respect to; or rather in the above places in this, and the foregoing chapter, where he gives the fore mentioned characters of ministers; where, in the apostles themselves, in their own words, from their own account, they might learn, on the one hand, not to ascribe too much to them, nor, on the other hand, to detract from their just character and usefulness: and also, that no one of you be puffed up for one against the other;speak great swelling words of vanity, and envy, for one minister against another; when they are all one, bear the same character, are in the same office, and are jointly concerned in the same common cause of Christ and the good of immortal souls."

So you see Bill it was talking about Paul and others who were thought by some to be high and mighty. Some were still taking sides with Apostles instead of rightly giving credit to Christ. MEN were being puffed up Bill, and Paul was trying to set them straight. Paul never wrote letters saying that he or ANY of the apostles were nothing more than SERVANTS (I like that word) of GOD!

Bill, how you can transcend that to lord over your prefferences is beyond me man. You take that scripture to mean that anything NOT written in the Scriptures is wrong, not authorized! IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT, and never will.
Remember too Bill, that there were only a few written letters to the various churches. You DO realize that they did NOT have the full written Word, as we have it today??? Do you Bill?

Bill, here would be the People's New Testament commenetary on that verse
"6-9. These things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos. I have used the names of Paul and Apollos to illustrate lessons that I wished to impress upon; especially the lesson not to think of men too highly. Be puffed up for one against another. Exalting one preacher and making him a leader, while seeking to pull down another."

Bill, does that sound anything about cleaving only to Holy Writ so as to abuse that verse for dissallowing anything NOT written?
Thank You!

As for you, Not Impressed, nothing to say...sorry to see you upset.
I would but leave you with such a Scripture passage also, not one of negativity as you left for me, but one of Strength of following our God and His Ways....instead of mans.

Joshua 24:15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."

Stay away from what YOU want Impressed, and ALWAYS give it UP for the Lord. It truly is WISE to be a servant, and not clamour for the top. Give always, and don't worry about needing to receive. What has this to do with what we have been talking about???
Everything!!!
Think about it!

Yes, no matter how much we look at 1 Cor. 4:6, the words just won't change. Paul's warning not to go beyond what is written in Scripture will always remain and be a stumbling block to those who insist on adding more to God's commands than what He has specified in those commands. "Not go beyond what is written" means just that: Do not go beyond what is written in Scripture. It just can't get any plainer than that.

To not go beyond what is written had nothing to do with commands. It was trying to make sure that Paul's description of himself and other apostle, IN WORDS (letters), was what they actually meant and were to be adhered to. They were not supposed to be following men...the men were there to show the Way of Christ. They didn't want to be thought to be any higher than any other man, even though they had the gifts.
Bill, you just ignored the two commentaries, didn't you?
How convenient, but not surprising!
Again Bill, there will always be those who ABUSE the Word to try and show how their PREFERRENCES should be adhered to, when again it comes down to men wanting other men to follow tradition.
Bill, have you ever heard me use the word PREFERRENCE before?
If you PREFER it done that way, then find you a church that PREFERS it that way.
CHANGE Bill, unfortunately for some, will always be a thorn in their sides.
CHANGE is inevitable. CHANGE is GOOD when those that change follow the Word of God!
Tradiion can be bad when those that follow it try to denouce the changes, based on ABUSING the Word of God because they don't like the changes. PREFERRENCES again!
Remember the parables of the talents?
The one man had the one, didn't try to make anything of it, and in the end was scorned by his master. Hey Bill, in that parable, did the master tell these men how to invest their monies? Were there specific instructions? They used their brains, without instruction, to trust God that He would direct them how to best use that money. Maybe even used a little common sense?!?! Just like a man today uses different ways to glorify God and reach lost souls. He may not do it the same way as another man. He may have had to CHANGE things up! Obviously since both men who did well did not do it the same way (one man did better than the other) that would lend to us thinkging that one PREFERRED one way while the OTHER PREFERRED another way. Wasn't the master happy with both?
BINGO!!!
They BOTH did the work of the master!

Let me leave you with a Scripture Bill...

1 Corinthians 14:36 Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached?

You see Bill, you are not the only person that can understand the Word of God!
Amen and Amen!
Praise God for the Understanding of His Word!

Servant may want to ease up a bit on the histrionics and try this:

Make life very simple by trusting in the New Testament as written. Since God through Paul warns us not to go beyond what is written therein, then simply submit to that warning. Don't presume to second-guess the content of God's commands by adding anything more than what He has already specified therein. Trust in what God actually says, not in what you think He says or what you want Him to say. That's the safest advice available. Take it, and you won't run afoul of God.

I am posting this again for the pleasure of Bill Crump who disregarded these two commentaries....

Let us try THIS explanation for a DIFFERENT commentary (John Gill)
"that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is
written:"
meaning, either in the word of God in general; or in some particular passages of Scripture he might have respect to; or rather in the above places in this, and the foregoing chapter, where he gives the fore mentioned characters of ministers; where, in the apostles themselves, in their own words, from their own account, they might learn, on the one hand, not to ascribe too much to them, nor, on the other hand, to detract from their just character and usefulness: and also, that no one of you be puffed up for one against the other;speak great swelling words of vanity, and envy, for one minister against another; when they are all one, bear the same character, are in the same office, and are jointly concerned in the same common cause of Christ and the good of immortal souls."

So you see Bill it was talking about Paul and others who were thought by some to be high and mighty. Some were still taking sides with Apostles instead of rightly giving credit to Christ. MEN were being puffed up Bill, and Paul was trying to set them straight. Paul never wrote letters saying that he or ANY of the apostles were nothing more than SERVANTS (I like that word) of GOD!

Bill, how you can transcend that to lord over your prefferences is beyond me man. You take that scripture to mean that anything NOT written in the Scriptures is wrong, not authorized! IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT, and never will.
Remember too Bill, that there were only a few written letters to the various churches. You DO realize that they did NOT have the full written Word, as we have it today??? Do you Bill?

Bill, here would be the People's New Testament commenetary on that verse
"6-9. These things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos. I have used the names of Paul and Apollos to illustrate lessons that I wished to impress upon; especially the lesson not to think of men too highly. Be puffed up for one against another. Exalting one preacher and making him a leader, while seeking to pull down another."

Bill, does that sound anything about cleaving only to Holy Writ so as to abuse that verse for dissallowing anything NOT written?
Thank You!

More histrionics from Servant. He's doing everything he can to go beyond what has been written in Scripture. Such an erroneouwsly complicated life! Following Scripture as written makes life much simpler.

That's it Bill!
Attack the messenger when you can't pull down the message.
I am sure you took some psychology during your post secondary education, right?
The problem with this Bill is the message doesn't come from me. It comes from God. If you battle my message, you battle God. If you attempt to break me down Bill, then you have to go after God!
You can't win Bill! Ever!
Is that a bit of histrionics too Bill?

The message of 1 Cor. 4:6 is clear and will forever remain clear: Do not go beyond what is written in Scripture. Do not add anything more to God's commands than what God has already specified in those commands. That's an eternal principle the Change Movement will never change, against which Servant will never prevail.

BTW, so now Servant imagines himself as vicar of God ("you battle me, you battle God")? I'm sure there are a number of psychiatrists out there who would love to, as we say, "interview" Servant.

Bill:
Like the saying goes....'speak up and remove all doubt.' I will continue to pray for you Bill, but not continue to post here. This place does not make welcome any other interpretation....and remember Bill, that everyone, YES EVERYONE with sound mind can interpret the Word of God just as you can. That is what makes you grind your teeth. You tell others that YOUR interpretation is only valid, and I say that their maybe other ways to look at the Word beyond what I can describe. You prescribe to the theory of 'our way or the highway.' In the meantime people are leaving the church left and right. Our church of Christ is not one with that type of attitude, which is why we are SOLID for the the Lord. Back to the teeth grinding. We don't do it the 'traditional way' and it angers you. And no, just because we do it differently, however still Scriptural, we will not change the name.

1 Corinthians 14:36 Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached?

You see Bill...you didn't write the Word, and you aren't the only interpreter.

I am writing a book Bill. Would love to send you a copy after I publish it!

Servant is most correct in that all people, including those of sound mind, can "interpret" Scripture. The problem is that the many different interpretations arise from the preferences and prejudices of man, not from God. A host of different interpretations cannot all be correct. Since Christ intended for His Gospel and the New Testament to be understood correctly, and since Christ preached only ONE Gospel, there is only ONE interpretation, and that is Christ's interpretation as written in the New Testament.

Servant, like many in the Change Movement, claims that what I or any other conservative preach is "my own doctrine, my preferences, my this, my that." He erroneously subscribes to the denominational notion that all different interpretations are valid, that as long as one is "sincere" in his beliefs, regardless of how far they differ and go astray from what is written in the New Testament, then Christ will accept that. Too many people are just not willing to submit themselves to what Christ has set forth in His New Testament. They think that the Word must be embellished, revised, or made "new and improved," lest a 21st-century group of godless entertainment seekers not "accept" it. When we conservatives came along and realized that there could be only ONE interpretation of Scripture, Christ's own SINGLE interpretation as set forth in the New Testament, nothing more, nothing less, the change agents and liberals saw red, and the fur began to fly. It's been flying ever since, and as long as the denominations, change agents, and the Change Movement are extant, the fur will continue to fly. Too many people just do not realize or cannot fathom that they, too, can follow the ONE interpretation by simply following the New Testament as written.

With that, we now say goodbye to Servant and bid him well. We also will still encourage Servant to adhere strictly to the Word of God as written in the New Testament, adding nothing to it, taking nothing from it, and especially not adding anything more to God's commands than what God has already specified in those commands.

First of all, it is amazing that all of you guys spend this much time on this website. Anyone can spend 30 min. reading the postings on this site and come to the conclusion that no one is going to convince the other of his or her point. I realize debate is healthy but if the time that some of you put in this website was directed toward more productive actions such as helping the less fortunate or spreading God's word most of this debate would be moot.

I may not be as eloquent as some of you but I do have my 2 cents to put in. I grew up attending Madison C of C with my family - birth to age 18. I attended church probably 20 times the next 14 years, not because anything Madison did but because I just didn't want to. I and my family have been attending church for the past 6 years. The last 3 at Madison. Yes - Madison! We love it. I still know a lot of people there since I attended regulary for 18 years. The "changes" that have taken place are wonderful. I am so grateful that all of the members that were causing the problems have left. All of the members that are still at Madison realize what is important and can focus on spreading God's message.

Just a few more thoughts. It always amazes me how traditional C of C members(Mr. Crump) will allow some changes that are convenient but criticize others. I asked a close family member who is a strict traditional C of C member about some of the "changes" in her church. She stated that technology changes that improve the worship or make it easier are ok. This same person told me that she hates singing the "new" songs and some of the time refuses to sing them in worship. She told me "I don't know why the old songs aren't good enough for the worship." She does attend a small traditional C of C that hasn't grown in 30 years. I told her that even "The Old Rugged Cross" and "Amazing Grace" were new songs once upon a time. I love the new songs. I also asked her how she felt about I Timothy 2:9(women should dress modestly, with no gold or pearls or expensive clothes). She told me that because everyone dresses up now in today's society that it was ok. I told her that if we are to take everything literally, she should wear Amish clothes to church and no jewelry. She actually quit wearing a large diamond ring to church that she always wears(not her wedding ring). Why isn't wine used in the communion? Because some man felt that drinking wine(even in worship as they did in the early days) was not acceptable so grape juice would be used. As I stated earlier, even traditionalists have allowed "changes" to happen that make worship convenient to suit themselves. I feel that as the world changes, some changes(not doctrine) need to happen to keep God's message fresh. Imagine what a C of C worship service was like in 1910 compared to 2007. Although insignificant changes may have occured(even in traditional C of Cs) the doctrine stays the same.

Although I will never recover the last 2 hrs. I have spent reading these messages and leaving my own, I am glad I did. In closing, like many others have already stated, if you are attending Madison C of C just to report to this website your feelings on how it is so wrong what is happening there, please find another congregation to attend so you can focus on what is really important and not on what you think is so wrong. I can promise that you will feel much better about yourself.

"Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you." 2 Corinthians 13:11

Stunned are you saying that the Christians who teach that we "should be of one mind" should leave? Are you teaching that change agents have the right to make changes and those who do not accept it should leave?

You do know that you worship in a divided congregation don't you? You are aware that every first day of the week is a reminder to all that division exist among the Madison group and is encouraged from within the group? And it was caused from with your group! You are aware that some who attend the early worship cannot and will not attend the other time period that you call a worship. By the way what do you call it, stunned, when you cannot get two worship assemblies that meet under the same roof, to agree and worship God the same way?

Can you show any place in our Bible where one way of worship was promoted for one group of people and another way of worship for another group of people?

The way to heaven is a straight and narrow way. A Christian cannot promote many ways or routes. The Christian can only teach ONE way!

Are you rebelling against the "be of one mind" command stunned?

In Christ,
Jimmy †

Jimmy, your response was not a surprise. Why don't you address the issues that I brought up, i.e strict traditionalist C of C not wanting to sing "new songs", I Timothy 2:9 as it refers to womens dress, wine in communion. I guess you feel that "changes" that are convenient are o.k. You did as others have done in the past which is divert to another point.

"In Christ,
Jimmy †"

I'm not buying it. Christ would not bash people in such a way. I'm not saying you're content is right or wrong, I am simply questioning the method in which you make your point. Having a loving attitude. Be like Christ.

Bill:
Since you consider me a change agent, then I CHANGED my mind.
Another post for you, howbeit brief, it is for you!
You may be a medical physician, consider yourself a conservative and a Christian, but yet you are very immature.
If you need proof, just read your own last post!
Take it to heart Bill, and change....while there is still breath in your body and the sun is in the sky.

I'll also be brief. I really didn't think that Servant would be able to stay away. He should learn to ditch that VOG* complex really fast. I'm referring to his recent, self-inflating proclamation of "You battle my message, you battle God" thing. Hurl that around too often, and psychiatrists will be parking on his doorstep with papers of commitment.

Adieu once again.

*Vicar of God

Donnie, You are correct in that I have not read a whole lot on this website. I somewhat understand the premise behind this website but do not have as much time as some of you do to read or compose long dissertations. I do have some questions that I would like answered, even if they have already been. What is the ultimate goal of the website besides "exposing" the horrible "changes" at the various churches? What are the intentions of you guys that are slamming Madison C of C and the other churches? Do you guys believe that you are going to "take back" Madison from the "change agents?" Do you feel that any "good" can come from the website or is this a place for people to vent?

My two cents … and observations. It appears to me that of paramount importance is more than just exposing whatever changes are being introduced and implemented “ON THE SURFACE.”

The underlying danger is ultimately in the changes associated with very important beliefs and teachings of the church (downgrading the essentiality and purpose of baptism; misappropriating the role of the holy Spirit of Christ [Romans 8:9; I Peter 1:11]; entertainment overshadowing the learning of God’s truth in the assembly; changing the commemoration of the Lord’s suffering and death into a fellowship meal for the belly; etc.). [I’m not saying if any or all of these are evident at Madison at all. I am saying that this is certainly in the change agents’ agenda.]

Another critical issue resulting from these “horrible changes”—whether good or bad, scriptural or sinful—is the confusion or division in the church.

From reading the various threads of this forum, it appears to me that the Richland Hills and Oak Hills and other communities are at a point of no return—unless their elders make the decision to honestly consult with the Holy Scripture and God and confess that their wrongdoings—which the religious world is taking notice—are troubling and creating massive confusion in the brotherhood.

“Taking back” Madison from the “change agents”—as you said—should depend entirely upon its leadership. Perhaps, its preacher is doing a good job of stabilizing the congregation’s current situation? And I wonder how many of the preacher’s ardent followers from the congregation(s) he served previously are at Madison now.

What I see is the division entailed by having the “traditional” and “contemporary” assemblies distinctively separate and different from each other—even though both have the same preacher. I know that the Bible is clear when it speaks of the body being “of the same mind and of the same judgment.” If not, that responsibility lies upon the decisions made by its elders. The reason that it is the same message and has not changed is unacceptable; otherwise, those who have left will have the confidence to return and fellowship unhindered.

Maybe, Madison has reached the point of no return also. Or, perhaps, time will tell?

I was not in attendance in early January when Mr. Keith Lancaster made the announcement regarding his resignation from the office of “Worship Leader.” [This office is not to be mistaken for the office of a bishop or the office of a deacon (cf. I Tim. 3:1,10,13). This office of “Worship Leader” is not to be mistaken for Christ’s calling of the apostles, prophets, evangelists and pastors and teachers (a.k.a. the elders) according to Ephesians 4:1-11.]

I wouldn’t be able to describe the manner in which he delivered his “talk”—his body language. I wouldn’t be able to accurately make a statement as to the real reason(s) for his decision to leave his well-paid position of arm-wagging and “rehearsing the programmed praise worship” before Sunday. Yes, I have my assumptions. So, what?

It is common knowledge now; it’s in the open; the church bulletin, Madison Marcher, dated February 2007 has published it, although the “Senior Minister” (Phil Barnes)—whose speech is delivered at the very end, usually AFTER the Praise Team has completed its numerous singy-clappy praise songs—is doing most of the “talking” in the article. [“Where have all the elders gone?”]

Committee seeks Worship Minister

Saying that his job as Madison’s Worship Minister was one of his greatest blessings and highest honors, Keith Lancaster resigned in early January to pursue other opportunities—the primary one being to travel and help other congregations worship in a spirit similar to Madison.

“Frankly, I’d like to help congregations learn to put their hearts and voices fully into enthusiastic worship,” Lancaster said. “Worship is not a spectator activity. When the participation level is very high and our hearts are tuned together, the experience is matchless.”

While many were disappointed with Lancaster’s decision to leave Madison, they were encouraged that he was answering a call that God had put on his heart to help other congregations across the country.

“Keith has been a dynamic worship leader for our congregation for eight years,” said Phil Barnes, Senior Minister. “He’s heightened the level of worship at Madison, and we’ll miss him.

“But we’ve formed a Search Committee, and we’re getting calls from worship leaders all across the country who are interested in this position,” Barnes added. “We’re excited about the possibilities that God may have for us with a new man to lead us.

“In the interim, we are so blessed to have a man like Kevin Dunnebacke who’s not only talented, but also has a heart for God and for worship,” Barnes added.

“I urge everyone to continue praying for Keith and Sharon and their family as they respond to the call that God has put on their hearts,” said Barnes. “And, please continue to pray for your Shepherds and our Search Committee as we seek God’s will for our church.”

OK. Your analysis or opinion? Questions? Predictions?

"I wouldn’t be able to describe the manner in which he delivered his “talk”—his body language. I wouldn’t be able to accurately make a statement as to the real reason(s) for his decision to leave his well-paid position of arm-wagging and “rehearsing the programmed praise worship” before Sunday. Yes, I have my assumptions. So, what?"


don- this may be the most intelligent thing I have seen you post. (except the juvenille "arm-wagging" part) You finally admit that you don't know his heart. I'm proud of you. You are also coming to terms with the fact that, you have your assumptions, and... "So what?"




"This office is not to be mistaken for the office of a bishop or the office of a deacon (cf. I Tim. 3:1,10,13). This office of “Worship Leader” is not to be mistaken for Christ’s calling of the apostles, prophets, evangelists and pastors and teachers (a.k.a. the elders) according to Ephesians 4:1-11."


Do you feel the same way about youth ministers?

The sky is falling, the sky is falling. Chicken Little reigns again. It doesn't take much for conspiracy theorist to raise their voices and sound like Chicken Little. Does anyone ever consider taking things at face value and thinking someone in a church actually told the truth? Considering all the things that are going wrong in the world today, it seems that a worship leader resigning from a congregation falls way down on the list to be concerned about. However, since this is concerned members take your conspiracy theories and run with them as I am sure they will be entertaing to read. There seems to be a lot less traffic on the threads now so dig deep for the dirt and spread appropriately. If you don't this may turn into a Ken Sublett mythology posting web site only.

Jimmy Joe,

I do thank you for the compliment stated above. It puts me in firm company with those I try so hard to emulate. Wasn't it Jesus and Paul who told us to look out for these very issues? Who told us to stand firm on the truth and not to let others change His Word? That there would be evil amongst us disguised as friends/Christians? Wow, to think, Jesus was a conspiracy theorist.

If I listened to Jimmy Joe, I would believe that the Devil is an upfront, honest, forthright kind of being. Wow, how could I have been so wrong?

I can see it now, JImmy Joe...Next Sunday, the Devil and his minions will walk right into a Church and proclaim their desire to tear apart Christ's church. He'll tell us that there are other ways to get to heaven and that we have been blinded by the Word. He'll explain that we are smarter than our ancestors and that we don't have to abide by the Word like they did. He will remind us that God's power is limited by time and that he has softened with age. NOt to worry about all those details in the Scriptures, they were just written as filler. In fact, the Bible isn't really that important, it's just a guide and we don't have to follow all of it. Then he'll remind us of our own needs and how we should follow our own desires because God want us to be happy! (Now I know how confused Eve must have felt)

Well, Jimmy Joe, I'm sorry I didn't realize the Devil is so straight forward. And here I thought he was supposed to be sneaky and evil, sending his minions in like wolves in sheeps clothing. A beautiful prince with evil needs. Where ever did I get that idea?

Don't worry. The devil is still his sneaky old self. He has snuck into the hearts and minds of long time church members and told them, "We are fine. Plenty of people are coming to Christ. We can't possibly do anymore for the Kingdom. Doing things just like we have for 100 years is working great. In fact, if anyone tries anything different, we'll disfellowship them, judge them, and write nasty things about them on the internet. We're doing it just like Jesus. We don't need to change a thing."

The method by which Jesus presented His message was by oral communication to groups of people of various sizes in various locations, like beside the seashore, on hilltops, in the marketplace. That is, Jesus presented His message anywhere people would listen.

Contrary to what Amazed says, we have already made "changes" in the church today. We assemble in structured buildings, we have modern conveniences, and we preach using PA systems so that people can hear the Gospel more clearly. We even spread the Gospel via the Internet, by print, and by other means of electronic media. BTW, none of those particular changes violates any of God's existing commands in the New Testament.

Jesus utilized no "props" as we know them to promote His message. He utilized no formal stage drama with troups of actors, no praise team, no professional entertainers, no choirs ooohing, ahhhing, or swaying in the backgroud while He preached, and no stand-up comics. He taught a simple message through simple parables that tied directly in with the Kingdom of God. He did have to convince everyone that He was divine, so He healed the sick, made the blind see, and made the lame walk.

Again, the church has made "changes" along these lines. There is the belief that merely preaching the Gospel is boring and will no longer draw crowds, so many churches have now given their "worship centers" the worldly look and feel of worldly performing arts centers. Praise teams, choirs, orchestras, dance troups, drama teams, and professional entertainers have indeed transformed churches into theatrical sideshows promoting eye and ear candy and a frenzy of "feelings." Adrenaline highs and emotional outbursts are considered valid indicators of "faith." Instead of simple parables, there are riotous and sometimes "colorful" tales that produce belly laughs and hee-haws, while raucous pop/rock music screeches from rock bands in the background like the popular music heard on the radio. These kinds of changes do indeed make the church more like the world and thus violate James 4:4 and 1 John 2:15-17.

Whereas Jesus taught the whole message of the Gospel, that both love and obedience are necessary for salvation (Matt. 7:21-27; John 14:15; Heb. 5:9; 1 John 5:1-3), today's "changed" churches have a "changed gospel" that emphasizes love and pleasant things while downplaying and ignoring obedience. All that's necessary to go to heaven is "love." The New Testament, on the other hand, teaches that Christ became the Author of eternal salvation to those who obey Him (Heb. 5:9). Obeying Christ is loving and doing for others as well as doing all that Christ has commanded.

Yet there are those who believe that if churches do not make the latter "changes" mentioned above, then Satan allegedly has come among them and told them that no one will ever obey the Gospel anymore without those modern, glitzy "changes." The fact of the matter is that Satan HAS come into churches through change agents who teach that the Gospel must be "changed" and made "relevant" to a godless society by appealing to human lust for entertainment and "pleasant words." The emphasis is more on being "relevant" than being "right."

But if people will no longer obey the simple message of the Gospel as simply preached, churches are just deluding themselves into thinking that circus attractions and superficial hoopla will instill faith and obedience into congregants. Such theologies and philosophies indeed are the spawn of Satan.

For Not Impressed I would like to clarify a couple of things. I don't worry about the sky falling on me. I am not out to defend anyone. As long as this is still a free country, one may attend a different congregation every week if they so desire. As for my basis for less traffic on this web site, Sunday School in Exile last post 2-15-07, More Churches, one post since 2-16-07, Hillcrest Church of Christ, last post 11-24-05, Richland Hills Church of Christ, one post since 2-27-07. I will admit the Madison thread has picked up a little. However, in the past there were more posters and different topics discussed. I read the post occasionally but seldom post myself. I find the majority of the time most posters become retorters. Myself included.

I hate to tell you this but COMING TO CHURCH does not mean COMING TO CHRIST. The Play Book 101aaa is that the mission of the church is to GO and preach the gospel. The gospel has the only power to SORT OUT those "of faith" and "of truth" from the VIPER race. You cannot musicate them so that YOU can save them so you are just collecting JUMPING GOATS. I think what you mean fits The Book of Enoch: when people fell away from the LIVING Word being seduced by music they grasped that they had fallen and could not get up. Therefore, they said "we gonna save more souls" which meant that they organized musicians, wine garden etal to COLLECT the masses. This gave them the ONLY security they would ever get until they waited the final judgment day.

No, not MYTHS: we call them legends because they are based on historical facts AND accurately represent the life and religion Jesus came to cut off our backs. They are people who LADE BURDENS meaning musical and other frightening rituals claiming contact with the Gods: Pharisees, Scribes which included HYPOCRITES or those adepts in holding religious rituals to in a modern sense, "steal the church houses of widows."

I also post HISTORY from numerous records such as that of Pausanius who accurately defined the CORINTHIAN CONFUSION which was DISunity in Diversity and pointing to the music-mad women sect who "spoke in gibberish" but not languages.

Strabo, whom you are driving me to reveal because you will never get that from churchicating and musicating, defines the NEW STYLE worship you dredged up from OLD STYLE BABYLON and Greece:

Id.11.4.7, al Strabo, Geography 6] Their kings, also, are excellent. At the present time, indeed, one king rules all the tribes, but formerly the several tribes were ruled separately by kings of their own according to their several languages.

They have twenty-six languages [tongues], because of the fact that they have no easy means of intercourse with one another.

The country produces also certain of the deadly reptiles, and scorpions and phalangia. Some of the phalangia [venomous spider] cause people to die laughing, while others cause people to die weeping over the loss of their deceased kindred.

Paul identifies the MUSES as LOCUSTS with STINGERS by pointing the literate to MARK out the false religionists in the church:

Skorpios (g5651) skor-pee'-os; prob. from an obsol. skerpo, (perh. strengthened from the base of 4649 and mean. to pierce); a "scorpion" (from its sting): - scorpion And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. Re.9:3

And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. Re.9:5

And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. Re.9:10

Plato, Euthydemus [290a] and only slightly inferior to that. The sorcerer's art is the charming of snakes and tarantulas and scorpions and other beasts and diseases, while the other is just the charming and soothing of juries, ASSEMBLIES, crowds, and so forth. Or does it strike you differently? I asked.

Xenophon identifies these with KIRKE or CHURCH. He warns you that CHURCH as the Mother of Harlots CAN turn you into a pig.

John, using this HISTORICAL RECORD of fact or faith identifies the Mother of Harlot's TEMPLE SERVANTS as singers and musicians to SOOTHE the church to put it to sleep and give it the sting of death. NEW-FOUND stuff, huh?

[7] As for gods, they honor Helius, Zeus, and Selene, but especially Selene [MOON]; her temple is near Iberia. The office of priest is held by the man who, after the king, is held in highest honor; he has charge of the sacred land, which is extensive and well-populated, and also of the temple slaves,

The Temple Slaves which even prowled the Jerusalem Temple like all PRIESThoods. Why be shocked: the legalistic PATTERNISM they are using to STEAL your life, liberty and property was the PATTERN of God "turning them over to worship the starry host: Helius (Sun), Selene (moon) and the MOON was HIGH PRIESTESSES because SHE regulated all of the keeping of days and seasons which a CHRISTIAN keeps at their own risk.

Hiero-doulos of the Nethinim, LXX 1 Es.1.2, al.; esp. of temple COURTESANS at Corinth and elsewhere

In Corinth the UNCOVERED prophesiers were "just out of paganism" where ALL were compelled in some places to serve as a temple PROSTITUTE. (Remember how Judah lost his scepter?). "Making self a prophesier" meant to sing, dance, play instruments and go out of your mind (MARKS=waving hands, clapping, body lurching). True prophesying by Paul demanded to TEACH DOCTRINE: that which HAD BEEN taught or which Paul would reveal to them.

many of whom are subject to religious frenzy and utter prophecies.

FRENZY is:Enthousi-astikos A.inspired, especially by MUSIC. Sophia DIVINATION, Excitement, A.inspired, phusisPl.Ti.71e ; especially by music,

I have told you that ALL of the musical and instrumental terms have EVIL ROOTS because in religion they were used to ENCHANT you out of your pants and Mastercard. You DO remember that the New Wineskin, Jubilee PATTERNISM was to manufacture an ENTHUSIASTIC worship of PRAISE SINGING. That word is Enthus-O-Mania meaning OUT OF YOUR WITS. So, HOW could anyone NOT know that Apollo had UNLEASHED the locusts-Vipers as Musical Worship Ministers UNDER the Mother of Harlots to seve as SORCERERS to "put out YOUR light." That INCLUDED a broader role for women where probably MOST preachers are selected by domanant Elderesses.

That means you have LOST the anchor so that YOU DO NOT KNOW whether you have been invaded by body snatchers: Ezekiel said that women cause SOULS TO FLY.

AND PROPHECIES: A.to be a prophêtês or interpreter of the gods, manteueo [MAD women in Corinth] will be thy INTERMEDIARY in asking this, III. HOLD OFFICE, be a QUACK DOCTOR

That is why Peter OUTLAWED private interpretaion or FURTHER EXPOUNDING. The musicators CLAIM to be MEDIATORS and they ARE standing in the Holy Places. Therefore, the ARE the Abomination which makes DESOLATE. Don't get STUNG by no LOCUSTS with a SCORPION'S TAIL as a MUSICAL MINISTER.

Now, like the man possed by demons as a GAZING MAN or MANTIS wandering in the cemetary, when these MUSICAL MINISTER PROSTITUTES get out of control you need to EXORCISE them or STRABO defines what happened also to Judas who was a "musical Sicarri":

And any one of those who, becoming violently possessed, wanders alone in the forests, is by the priest arrested, bound with sacred fetters, and sumptuously maintained during that year, and then led forth to the sacrifice that is performed IN HONOR of the GODDESS, and, being anointed, is sacrificed along with other victims.

In Gnosticism, Sophia an Zoe force the "stupid jehovah" to form musical worship bands before SHE will promote him up a level or two. Then, the purpose is to worship SOPHIA and ZOE. Zoe is the BEAST and FEMALE instructing principle and that is why Paul WARNED you about the EVE PATTERNISM.

The sacrifice is performed as follows: Some person holding a sacred lance, with which it is the custom to sacrifice human victims, comes forward out of the crowd and strikes the victim through the side into the heart, he being not without experience in such a task; and when the victim falls, they draw auguries from his fall and declare them before the public; and when the body is carried to a certain place, they all trample upon it, thus using it as a means of purification.

I told you that Isaiah etal told you that HELL was prepared to BEAT you there with Wind, String and Percussion Instruments.
Now, CIRCE used by John to identify the Mother of Harlots induced you into sex using drugs and enchantments including instrumental. Once you became a BEAST she put you into her STOCK PEN with the Swine.

The Mother Goddess, however, intends to USE the musical sorcerers for fun and PROFIT but when you burn up or burn out then YOU become the sacrificial victim or THUSIA meaning to BURN UP. That is why Paul said that we should 'burn up' or Bodies as a LIVING sacrifice THEN we can worship in the PLACE of the Spirit.

Max Lucado is resigning because of his HEART: frankly, I expected that he would be USED UP and would fall in a more spectacular way. However, as Donnie has well informed us, NONE of those who seek fame and fortune can ever be so WORSHIPPED that he / she / it is not CONSUMED WITH WORMS because they HAD to sell themselves and their SHEEP to Lucifer "the singing and harp-playing prostitute" in the Garden and the Mother of Harlots at THESE end times.

Now, you watch all of those with a BRIGHT BROWN SHINY NOSE dive in to become the LAST KING of the Hill which you cannot MOUNT unless you take one of Pan's HORNS required to succeed: Pan the goat or CAPELLA is a figure of Satan who forces your worship with MUSIC which induces FRIGHT.

So, if you want to be a TEMPLE COURTESAN you will drive yourself into a charismatic (perverted) fit and the CLERGY will have to SACRIFICE you. As in the case of Saul's MADNESS, perhaps God has send you some DAVIDS to cause you to become so vile that your SOLDIERS will just JOKE about you. There is ALWAYS a PLANT who is FEMALE. In the Legends, SHE if often a HE required to perform the LIFTING UP rituals. I would watch REAL CLOSE and you will find a Jezebel who is ruling the Judas--whose Judas box was "for carrying the mouthpieces of wind instruments" and his STOLEN MONEY. Satan, who is really SHEtan say that Judas had been USED UP and she sent him out to hang himself and slowly rot and twist in the wind until he dropped among the magots and his guts DROPPED OUT.

"Temple singers were ALWAYS happy to serve as THE HAREM OF THE GODS." So, when they cause the VINEYARD climax with the "spirit" be certain that all known history knows (believe it or not) that you are giving yourself to SATAN."

Let's Plant and Water and let GOD give the increase: leave the jumping goats (capella) outside of the garden and then WE won't have to bear GOD'S burden.