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TMP
(no login)
68.155.133.208

Re: Gripe … Bash … Despise

July 7 2006, 9:30 AM 

Wordkeeper,

I have appreciated your comments over the last couple of months. It is interesting to see someone debate the trinity (the Crump, the Cruz, and the Sublett) without stooping to their level of name calling, condescension, and random babbling. (Of course, saying that will probably start a new frenzy.) I have found your comments thoughtful and insightful. You and Mark F. have given this site a refreshing outlook lately.

Donnie, I can't imagine the lack of humility to be able to state "It is obvious that you detest the church whose head and founder is Christ. If I were you, I would be ashamed of myself by not recognizing the fact that while the church is comprised of imperfect Christians, as a result, place the blame on the church established by Christ." I thought his comments where actually quite tameand heartfelt, but how do you know what is going on in Wordkeepers heart. (If he detested the church of Christ so much, would he ever place his foot in one now?)

The whole idea of claiming that the sum total of true Christians following the Lord being limited to ones who attend a church with the name "church of Christ" on the outside is such arrogance on our part. It reminds me of Jeremiah claiming he was the only one faithful, and God telling him of the thousands that are faithful. (1 Kings 19) Why can't we just say, we are trying to follow Christ as best we can? If given the opportunity, we should share, like Aquilla and Pricilla, where we believe we see others following error. Who are we to claim we represent "the church whose head and founder is Christ" but even though you claim you are a Christian, you are sadly mistaken.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
66.19.66.98

Re: Who is right?

July 7 2006, 11:46 AM 

Of course, someone entrenched in Rick Warren's propaganda would find anything that exposes the fallacies of the Purpose-Driven paradigm as "character assassination" and "mud slinging." It's no longer PC to rebuke anyone today for preaching "heresies" and "false doctrine," for all doctrines are acceptable today. Even Jesus' branding of the Pharisees as "hypocrites" would be considered as "character assassination" and "mud slinging" today.

As a former member of a Southern Baptist church and former organist thereof, I know what the Baptists are all about, I have read Warren's books, and I know what Warren is all about as well. Even though Baptist doctrine is not all scripturally correct (for example, they embrace instrumental music, believe that one is "saved" prior to baptism, and reject the commands to be baptized for remission of sins and salvation--Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:21), and even though I have left that denomination, I don't go around continually bashing and trashing that denomination as such or any other denomination as a whole, as some former members of the c of C do who conduct perpetual smear campaigns against that faith. It's more important to nail the false teachers in the denominations like Warren and expose their heresies as the Kjos Ministries site and others well do.

Yet it seems that many of those who leave the church of Christ feel compelled to come to sites like this and bash and trash us. Instead, why not go to a whole web site devoted to nurturing the wounded hearts of those who have left the c of C. That web site is www.ex-churchofchrist.com, the whole purpose of which allows people to express their catharsis by slamming and bashing the c of C. It's kinda like an "AA" for former members of the c of C. If former members of the c of C have nothing better to do than to revile their former faith, perhaps it's better that they hang out at the Ex-c of C site and commiserate together with others whose hearts are also in total misery.


 
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TMP
(no login)
68.155.133.208

Re: Who is right?

July 8 2006, 1:01 AM 

Although I do have a copy of purpose driven life, I have read all of about two chapters...didn't find it that interesting. And although I am sure Dr. Crump would classify the church I go to as a model purpose driven church, I know the preacher likes the book about as much as the good doctor. But it is always much easier to make yet another wrong assumption that I am "entrenched in Rick Warren's propaganda." I wonder how many more of his assumptions are wrong?

I find it more than ironic that D.C. mentions the ex church of christ site. "Perhaps it's better that they hang out at the Ex-c of C site and commiserate together with others whose hearts are also in total misery." Sounds a whole lot like this site.


 
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wordkeeper
(Login wordkeeper)
68.143.65.130

Re: Who is right?

July 8 2006, 11:18 AM 

Look. I think that I have been totally
misrepresented. I stated in my earlier postings
that in my deep heart I wish for the
churches of Christ to lead droves of the
unchurched to a saving knowledge of Jesus
Christ. I am all for you. I may have
had some bad experiences in the past but
I am over it now. My only wish is for
the people in the churches of Christ to
confess up and say they are not correct
in ALL doctinal matter and that puts them
in the same boat as everybody else, fallable
human beings.

There is a role and purpose for the churches
of Christ as there are many people who wouldn't
even think of attending anywhere else. God bless
these people (some of whom are future adherents
that are now in the status of the unchurched).
As also a role and purpose for Episcopalians,
Baptists, and all the other denominations.
The Lord's church has many of each of these
there is room for all of God's believers.
I just make the decision to not judge and let
God be the one who judges. I only open the Bible
and my mind to discuss spiritual topics with other
people and say, "This is what I believe and the
scriptures that back my positions, I put this upon
myself; but, you my friend must form your own beliefs
and be held accountable to God for your beliefs." At
that point I accept that person as brother/sister and
let God Judge.

Please don't misconstrue my postings as ani-churches
of Christ. I am honest enough to say that is not
what is in my heart.

Now to address one misunderstading. I did marry a
woman who is charismatic and I do currently attend
a charismatic church. But, she is not the one
brought me to my current beliefs of charismatic
gifts. At the same evangelical campaign I mentioned
earlier I met up with some charismatic brothers and
I thought I had all of the answers to why they were
wrong. For all of the arguments that I had they
wouldn't get into a debate with me. They only stated
that I should find out for myself what the truth is
and go by it and not church traditions. From 1985 through
1989 I spent 5 years reading over 300 books, scholarly
articles, and sermon tapes and probably over 1,500 hours
on this issue studying both sides . Of the
1,500 hours I'd say at least 700-800 hours were directly
in the Bible only. My conclusion is that both sides have
very good arguments. It boils down to I Corinthians 1:4-9
where Paul states that the gifts are operational until
Jesus Christ returns to earth. I didn't marry my wife until
1995. I didn't really start attending a charismatic church
until I married her. Up until then I worshiped at several
churches including the churches of Christ.

Thank you,

Wordkeeper

 
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wordkeeper
(Login wordkeeper)
64.191.149.218

Re: Question about the Christian Church

July 3 2006, 8:20 PM 

Mark F.,

I think that we will see a lot more of
the combined fellowships between Christian
churches and c of c. I can remember reading
Carl Ketcherside's books on how the two groups
have so many similarities. I, for one, believe
that the talks and discussions are healthy and
a lot of good will come from them.

I also wouldn't mind seeing bridges built with
all the other evangelical groups and the c of c.

Wordkeeper

 
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Ken Sublett
(no login)
4.152.96.162

The same but different

July 4 2006, 11:29 AM 

Before accepting Ketcherside, you should understand that SIMILAR is not necessarily RIGHT.

He rejected institutional religion: was originally a Sommerite.

He rejected a LOCATED PREACHER along with the Bible and most history.

He repudiated instrumental music and saw it as divisive.

Many other things would not be seen good if INSTITUTIONAL A merged with INSTITUTIONAL B when neither are "schols of the Bible.

Ken

 
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Berryville
(Login Berryville67)
68.52.46.77

Article in Louisville Courier Journal

July 3 2006, 11:21 PM 

There is an article along the same lines as the Christian Chronicle article in the Louisville Courier Journal.

"Reconciling Christians mix their music"

To view this article on The Courier-Journal Web site, go to:

http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2006606300388

 
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Ken Sublett
(no login)
4.152.96.162

Article speak with forked tongue.

July 4 2006, 11:57 AM 

The problem with the gatherings is that ALL of those represented "churches of Christ" either use or APPROVE of the use of instrumental music. The "Musical Worship Team" is a legalistic end run by using an ORGANI "pipe organ" using the syle of ORGANUM developed after about 1200.

Other than being SELL OUTS and many wanting to sell books and CDs, they also must deliberately misstate the Biblical and Historical facts or are too ignorant to be taken seriously. For instance, one of the big lies is that:
    In the 1906 split, some Churches of Christ, mainly in the South, concluded that they shouldn't use musical instruments because the New Testament never calls for them.
First, it is a historical fact that NONE of the groups which streamed into the church of Christ had ever used instruments. Not even the Catholics or Anglicans "worshipped with congregational singing and instrumental accompaniment." The organs were used before or after mass and later used for preludes, interludes and recessionals. The congregation DID NOT sing except offering amens.

Second, one of the major splits occured in Sand Creek, Ill which at last count was not in the South. People who wanted to INTRODUCE instruments left the building and sued to get control: they lost their effort to STEAL the property from people always known as THE CHURCH OF CHRIST in all ages and NEVER approved of instruments.

Third, NOT using instruments was not a late conclusion any more than NOT adding dirty dancing was a late development. They grasped that the Bible universally denounced isntruments which were used to silence the Word of God. ALL of church theologians made them literate about the negative impact created by any mind altering ritual. Therefore, rejecting instruments based on SILENCE was not the case. In fact, instrumentalists USED the legalistic law of silence: "The Law DOES NOT SAY, 'DO NOT USE INSTRUMENTS,' so we conclude that there is NO LAW AGAINST IT.

The Stoneite churches later to become the Christian Church flowed out of Cane Ridge which was quite identical to witchcraft. The "reformers" or "restorers" did not participate and never approved of the charismatic mental breakdowns. The Stoneites had little in common with the Reformers which grew up elsewhere.

Churches of Christ rejected being INCLUDED WITHOUT PERMISSION in the Disciples version of the census of 1906. By 1908 the Centennial edition of Campbell's Declaration and Address was published and the goals were stated. Churches of Christ did not "abandon" the historic church of Christ but made the choice NOT to be counted in what is shown here as a denominational structure.



The Christian Churches ALSO abandoned this denomination so why not PICK on them?

 
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Palm Beach Lakes
(Login www.pblcoc.org)
69.167.75.218

Thank God

July 8 2006, 3:22 PM 

Thank God, that after 100 years, the family of God is getting back together. You need to read the Bible about what God feels about people trying to divide that family up.

Palm Beach Lakes Church of Christ
West Palm Beach, Florida



========================

Reminder from Poster:

“My name is Tom, I do not represent Palm Beach Lakes Church of Christ and the elders and preachers at Palm Beach Lakes Church of Christ are not in agreement with me. I am sorry about the screen name. ... To let you know where I am coming from. I am coming from the other side of the Church of Christ. ... I am concerned about the legalistic patternism in PBLCOC." [April 30 2006, 1:35 AM]


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 68.19.221.28 on Aug 7, 2006 3:59 AM


 
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Donnie Cruz
(no login)
67.32.215.28

The Change Agents’ [P]reference: “Campbellites”

August 6 2006, 3:00 AM 

Dear Friends in Christ:

Among the strange sounds emanating from the camp of the change agents is the frequent use of the word "Campbellite" to describe the church of Christ. The lesson below responds to that slander. If you find the lesson helpful, share it with other Christians. Together we can make a difference.

John Waddey

___________________________________


    CAMPBELLITES


    As a child I remember a neighbor sneeringly calling members of the church of Christ, Campbellites. At that time I had no idea what the term meant or from whence it derived. Later I learned that it was a term of derision used by denominational zealots implying that members of the church of Christ were followers of Alexander Campbell and hence a denomination like themselves. That which first motivated them to use the term was Bro. Campbell's remarkable success in attracting members of their denominations to the cause of New Testament Christianity.

    In 1828 Alexander Campbell responded to those who called his associates Campbellites and his teaching Campbellism. He explained, "It is a nickname of reproach invented and adopted by those whose views, feelings and desires are all sectarian — who cannot conceive of Christianity in any other light than an ism ... I have always disclaimed everything sectarian; and if the people of the different sects slander me or any of those who prefer the scriptures to any human creed, and the kingdom of Jesus the Messiah, to any sect; I say, if they slander us with the names and epithets which we disavow, they must answer to him who judges righteously. But for ourselves, we protest against the name, the precepts, the feelings of any sect or schism in Christendom" (Christian Baptist, Vol. 5, p. 270). From that time until apostasy was well developed, never did any one associated with our Restoration Movement accept the appellation "Campbellite" or use the term in referring to fellow-Christians save perhaps in a joking manner.

    As the Disciples of Christ moved further and further away from their prior commitment to be nothing but Christians and governed solely by the word of God, many of their people began to use the term as an acceptable way to refer one to another. No longer was it offensive to them to be called Campbellites. They now view Campbell as the founder of their denomination. embers of the churches of Christ however rejected the term and viewed those who might called them by it as either ignorant or mean-spirited. In the mid-1950s W. Carl Ketcherside and Leroy Garret shifted from long careers of factionalism to become the first of our liberal change agents. To them the epithet Campbellite was no longer offensive, in fact they often used it to describe the brotherhood of churches of Christ.

    As with the liberal element a century ago, our contemporary change agents blush not to refer to themselves and the church by this term that was first spoken as a hiss and a byword. Their teaching and conduct is such that "Campbellite" is really an apt description of them. Two examples demonstrate this point.

    1. In their attempt to escape from the restrictions of Bible authority for what they believe and practice, virtually all of them cite the famous Declaration and Address of Thomas Campbell, item six, where Campbell writes, "...although inferences and deductions from Scripture premises, when fairly inferred, may be truly called the doctrine of God's holy word, yet are they not formally binding upon the consciences of Christians farther than they perceive the connections
      ... Therefore no such deductions can be made terms of communion ... Hence, it is evident that no such deductions or inferential truths ought to have any place in the Church's confession" (C. A. Young. Historical Documents Advocating Christian Union, p. 110). Giving these lines of Thomas Campbell ultimate authority, they conclude that they can use instrumental music and other innovations, not specifically forbidden in Scripture.

      They also cite Campbell's opening greeting "To all that love our Lord Jesus Christ, in sincerity, throughout all the Churches..." and his call for unity to justify their belief that people in all denominations are truly Christians and that unity with other religious bodies should take priority over doctrinal considerations. They quote that good man's words, spoken in the misty morning hours of our back to the Bible movement, as though they, rather than the New Testament of Christ, are the standard to determine right or wrong.

    2. When the question of the necessity of immersion in order to salvation is being considered, change agents are unwilling to accept the plain statements of Scripture (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; 22:16). They much prefer to cite Alexander Campbell's Lunenberg Letters where the notable reformer expressed his opinion that the pious unimmersed believer was saved, along with the immersed believer who in piety served the Lord.

    Since these examples demonstrate that change agents place the words of Thomas and Alexander Campbell above scripture, it seems to me to be entirely fitting that they call themselves Campbellites. Perhaps all those who still respect the authority of Christ and his Word over his church should recognize them for the Campbellites they have become. In the mean time we shall continue happy to be simply Christians, members of the church which Christ established and will save.


___________________________________
John Waddey, Editor
Christianity: Then and Now

E-Mail: johnwaddey@aol.com

 
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Donnie Cruz
(no login)
68.19.221.28

But unity without … what the Bible teaches about instrumental music

August 7 2006, 4:01 AM 

Source: http://christianchronicle.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=395&mode=&order=0&thold=0






    Features - Dialogue: A conversation with Alan Highers


    JUDGE, EDITOR AND MINISTER, Highers, 68, is critical of unity discussions with instrumental churches.

    By Lynn McMillon
    and Erik Tryggestad
    The Christian Chronicle

    Alan Highers isn’t opposed to unity within the body of Christ. But unity without careful exploration of what the Bible teaches about instrumental music will fail, he says.

    “There are thousands within the brotherhood who cannot conscientiously worship with an instrument,” says Highers, who preached his first sermon for a small, rural Church of Christ at age 16. “What kind of unity would it be if people who claimed to be united could not even worship together?”

    Nashville, Tenn.-based 21st Century Christian has produced a 51-minute video presentation of a lecture by Highers titled What About Instrumental Music? As several Church of Christ ministers are speaking across the nation about the need for increased unity with the instrumental Christian Churches, a cappella churches are purchasing the video to hear the arguments against instrumental music in worship, Highers says, adding that many are hearing these arguments for the first time.

    Born in Muskogee, Okla., Highers says he was fortunate to have parents who taught him the Bible from an early age. His love of justice led him to pursue a career in law. For nearly 30 years, he’s served as a member of the Tennessee judiciary — the past 24 as a judge on the Tennessee Court of Appeals. He is a past president of the Tennessee Judicial Conference.

    Highers’ life stretches beyond the bench and the pulpit. He has earned an advanced-class license for amateur radio and also is a licensed auctioneer. He’s also earned licenses to sell real estate and pilot a private plane. Since 1989 he has served as editor of The Spiritual Sword, a quarterly journal produced by church members.

    He has spoken at Christian university lectureships and for 15 years served as moderator for the Open Forum at the Freed-Hardeman Bible Lectureships in Henderson, Tenn.

    Highers lives in Henderson. He and his wife of 48 years, Sandra Bruce Highers, are members of the Henderson Church of Christ. They have two married daughters and four grandchildren.

    This year marks the 100-year anniversary of the 1906 federal census recognizing a split between instrumental Christian Churches and a cappella Churches of Christ. Several events — including the Abilene Christian University Lectureship and the North American Christian Convention — have focused on unity efforts between the two groups. Do you support these efforts?

    I cannot support the position taken at the latest ACU lectureship. I accept the historical position that ACU took during the first 75 years of its 100-year history. The late J.W. Roberts, a noted Greek professor at ACU, stated during the 1962 ACU lectures that “a group of people who insist on using the instrument without producing the Scripture authorizing its use, makes unity with those who conscientiously cannot do so an impossibility.” I agree with Roberts.

    Everyone would like to see unity between those who are estranged, but unity based on false premises is no unity at all. Some are seeking unity without any discussion of the rightness or wrongness of instrumental music in worship. They want to sweep the issue under the rug and ignore the real cause of division. I do not believe this can be done.

    There are thousands in the brotherhood who cannot conscientiously worship with an instrument. What kind of unity would it be if people who claimed to be united could not even worship together?

    Any unity that is merely decreed or pronounced between the two groups will be a charade, an artificial gloss, but certainly not the true unity envisioned in the Scriptures.

    Do you consider the use of instrumental music in worship a fellowship issue and/or a salvation issue? Please explain.

    Sin is a salvation issue. The question people should be discussing is whether it is a sin to bring instrumental music into the worship. Sin is what causes people to be lost (Romans 6:23).

    Why are the proponents of this unity effort unwilling to talk about the real cause of the division? They seem to want to call a big meeting and simply announce that there is unity. That will not work for most Churches of Christ. We have been trained to seek “book, chapter and verse.”

    It is going to require more than a lectureship and an official pronouncement by a university president to convince Bible-oriented people that we should unite with those who cannot give Scripture for their practice. How many lectures were given at ACU on what the Scriptures teach about instrumental music in worship?

    This is not what the proponents want to hear, but in my judgment there cannot be fellowship between the two groups unless this issue is fairly addressed.

    What historical factors should Christians consider when deciding whether instrumental music is appropriate?

    We should remember that Churches of Christ historically subscribe to the restoration principle. We are seeking to restore the doctrine and practice of the church revealed in the Scriptures. We want to be what people were in New Testament times.

    My question is this: How can we restore something that never was there? The New Testament and church historians are in agreement that there was no instrumental music in the worship of the early church. We, of all people, should respect that.

    What role does the “silence of the Scriptures” play in deciding how to approach instrumental music?

    We all appeal to the silence of the Scriptures. The Scriptures say nothing about sprinkling babies, praying to Mary, burning candles for the dead or using instrumental music in the worship of the church.

    Someone visited a Christian Church recently and picked up a tract titled What the Bible Says About Infant Baptism. He opened up the tract and found the inside pages were blank. Suppose the title had been What the New Testament Says About Instrumental Music in Worship. The inside still would have been the same — blank pages. If the absence of New Testament authority applies to one, it applies to the other.

    Some are saying that our young people do not accept the arguments against instrumental music. Are you concerned about this?

    Most of our young people have never even heard the arguments against instrumental music. Many of them have grown up without ever hearing a sermon on the subject. My experience has been that young people are very interested in the subject once it is presented to them. Some of them do not realize that instrumental music was not used in worship in the New Testament era or for several centuries thereafter, or that it was first introduced primarily through Roman Catholicism, or that there are solid biblical grounds for opposing its use.

    Everett Ferguson and other historians have shown not only that instrumental music was not used in the first four centuries after Christ, but also that it was positively opposed by the early writers.

    It is being said that many people are leaving the Church of Christ because they don’t have “brand loyalty.” What do you think?

    Fads come and go. Some people seek to be entertained. People are more susceptible to fads if they have not been taught and grounded.

    There is no more thrilling plea in the world than the call to be undenominational, New Testament Christians. When we all truly proclaimed that plea, people responded and the church grew.

    Today, some do not understand the appeal to speak where the Bible speaks and to be silent where the Bible is silent. They have not been taught. They have not heard it from the pulpit. In some places, people have been overwhelmed by a steady stream of criticism and ridicule directed toward the church. It is understandable that their loyalties would be displaced.

    When we return to the basics and focus once again on what makes us distinctive as Churches of Christ, the church will grow and our young people will not forsake the way they have learned.

    August 1, 2006




 
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stephen
(Login stuben23)
12.171.177.66

OC is a great university!

August 8 2006, 6:17 PM 

I would like to inform you, that as an alumni from Oklahoma Christian, if you never went there, you can not speak for it or about it. You have no idea about what you are talking about. OC is responsible for turning out some of the brightest and upcoming preachers in the Church of Christ today, including my brother-inlaw. So unless you attended OC or taught at OC, please leave my Alma Mater out of your conversations.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(no login)
68.19.221.28

Re: OC is a great university!

August 9 2006, 4:22 AM 

When did you graduate from OC, Stephen? Was it OCC or OCU then? Just wondering … since at times culture dictates human nature to change God’s truth and church doctrine—when it shouldn’t.

Donnie

 
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Stephen
(no login)
12.171.177.66

2002

August 9 2006, 5:43 PM 

I graduated from OC in 2002 with a bacholers degree in advertising design. I never at anytime witnessed anything I would deem unChrist like or unBibical during chapel or at Memorial Road Church of Christ. Great professors and a great student body.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(no login)
65.1.220.142

Push for Unachievable Unity—Caused Anxiety … in the First Place

August 26 2006, 4:46 PM 


Source:http://www.christianchronicle.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=396&mode=&order=0&thold=0






    Opinion - Refocusing on kingdom business


    Editorial

    By Chronicle Editorial Council
    The Christian Chronicle

    High general anxiety is one of the toxins with which we live in this present age, like some vague, threatening cloud.

    If you are reading the books, blogs and e-mail chains in our fellowship or broader community, it is easy for these negative feelings to nag at your focus. We live in an in-your-face era when seeking common ground is disreputable. The horizon seems dotted by troubles that demand immediate action. Anxiety drains us of energy and focus.

    In times like these, it is easy to be distracted from what the church is all about.

    One source of anxiety for many is the news of the recent North American Christian Convention in Louisville, Ky., the annual lectureship series of the Christian Churches in the U.S. Some see no common ground and are vehemently against discussions of closer relations with these churches and believers. Some are ready to rally forces against it. Others don’t know what to make of it. Some believe it is imperative that Christians seek unity in this way and have lost patience with questions about the process.


    By keeping our focus on the cross, the kingdom and God’s word, we can avoid excessive polarization and anxiety, which lead to hurry-up responses, all-caps e-mails and, unfortunately, sometimes to character assassinations, hate mail and other ungodly tactics. Mature Christians have learned skills for deepening discussion. Patient prayerfulness and study are called for here, not rash and prideful pronouncements. Prayer and patience leave space in our lives for the word and the Holy Spirit to do their work.

    In fact, this view from above will remind us that God has seen the church through many times of anxiety, challenge and change.
    Peace comes from faith in God; anxiety is the result of focusing on earthly moments. Patiently and prayerfully, we must place our faith in God and cling to prayer, Bible study and other daily disciplines of faithful living. These disciplines never change.

    Let us steadfastly refuse to be distracted from what the church is all about. Our communities are to be about this kingdom business. It is the simple, powerful Christian mission of the local congregation and our lives.

    We offer these ideas for refocusing on our mission in anxious times.

    • Love our neighbors. This is marvelous medicine for anxiety because it focuses our minds on the spirit of our Lord’s ministry, one person, one prayer at a time.

    • Tell the story of Jesus. This refocuses us on the coherence of a larger story, unfolding since the dawn of creation and leading to the cross.

    • Build biblical literacy in our families and communities. This shines the lamp of wisdom and truth into every home, workplace and congregation.

    • Care for the poor and needy. This opens a perspective on kingdom work, not the distraction of church squabbles.

    • Build congregations of spiritual depth and integrity. This surrounds us with companions for the journey and makes us resistant to anxiety.

    The answers are not in finding the ideal congregation or fellowship. Finding the perfect argument to answer opponents will not result in peace of mind. Changing to keep up with a fad will not end the stress.

    Rather, we daily must be about our Father’s business. This is the antitoxin to this age of anxiety and change. It is the balm of our Great Physician.

    August 1, 2006



The ideas suggested in the above editorial, with the exception of one, are the same excuses that proponents of church re-imaging use as defense mechanisms. The allusion being to: loving our neighbors; telling the story of Jesus; caring for the poor and needy.

But these ideas are not new—and, therefore, change agents should not be credited for these ideas. The New Testament is replete with instructions and admonitions to Christians to love God and neighbor, to fulfill the Great Commission, to care for the widows and orphans and the needy. They were and have been the mission points of the church all along. The focus changes only when a re-direction is prompted by those who are committed to transforming the church—as if God’s directives for the church needed alteration.

I must say that the refocusing, as suggested in the editorial, would be strongly applicable to churches that have succumbed to the “Community Church Movement” culture—the names of a few mega congregations in the brotherhood are no longer surprising to those who have been following the latest developments in our fellowship. They’re the ones who, in their attempt to change the image of the church and [thanks to the truth-ignorant leaders!] have successfully done so, really need to refocus on one very significant idea mentioned in the editorial—“Build biblical literacy in our families and communities.”

Refocusing on “biblical literacy” is needed not only by the few “Community-Church-style” transformed mega congregations, but also by congregations who have not yet been, or are in the process of [unbeknownst to them] being, infected with the disease of infiltration-subversion-acquisition.

Refocusing on “biblical literacy” demands a repudiation of “religious” materials and sources obtained from human-founded religious faiths. Bible classes should return to studies of the Old Testament books for historical perspectives and eternal principles contained in those books, as well as return to studies of the New Testament books as our guide in the conversion process for the unsaved and our guide to Christian living. Unless we make that distinction, we become victims of improper understanding of God’s plan for New Testament Christianity versus that of past dispensations.

Donnie

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
72.150.118.140

“Borrowed Faith” … from the Disciples of Christ

October 21 2006, 11:38 PM 

BORROWED FAITH



Some prominent preachers of the change movement have said, “if you accept Christ, you are my brother.” At first I was shocked by this bold statement but then I chanced to find its origin. The late Winfred E. Garrison, liberal spokesman for the Disciples of Christ denomination, made the same statement some 48 years ago.

    “What I am really saying is that all those who regard Jesus as Lord are actually members of his Church and are within our brotherhood and fellowship, and that all other arrangements and relationships among individuals and groups are secondary to this dominating truth…” (The Quest and Character of a United Church, New York, Abingdon Press, 1957, p. 6).

It should come as no surprise, then, that those among us who embrace the theological faith of the Disciples of Christ should seek fellowship with them, should invite their professors to teach their students how to preach, should teach their concepts of salvation and their view of the church. As Granny Smith used to say, “Children tend to act a lot like their parents.”


___________________________________
John Waddey, Editor
Christianity: Then and Now

E-Mail: johnwaddey@aol.com

 
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Ken Sublett
(no login)
69.19.14.33

Musical Subversion INTENSE: time MUST be short!

October 22 2006, 5:28 PM 

Why do you suppose there is such a LUST and psychologically violent effort to seduce churches which have NEVER used instruments and NEVER been part of the Stoneites into ADDING "worship teams" and instruments or at minimun AFFIRM that those who sowed discord were INNOCENT and those who REFUSED to add instruments were sectarian, legalistic, patternistic, heretical sowers of discord. (been learning from Rubel and Al Maxey)? The AGENTS tell flat lies about the "division" over instruments and no literate person can possibly be misinformed. The institutionalized STONEITES lusted to sign up ALL OF CHRISTENDOM as "Life Members" (ala Jim Bakker) to buy their bibles, song books, Bible school literature, and trinkets and LET THEM run your Sunday School program and send YOU an approved preacher. The "reformed and restored" (Calvin's words) churches DID NOT use instruments for the same reason that most groups did not even hallucinate the use of machines.

Grace Centered Forum has someone who was probably fired almost hourly posting material to PROVE that the Campbells were ecumenical when the SAME MATERIAL when posted in context REFUTES it. I have trouble accepting this is just "dyslectic" symptoms and have to believe that people are active in trying to convince people that black is white. Alexander Campbell himself questions the mentality of anyone who would suggest that the SECTS were acceptable to him based on the fact that he was working to remove the Catholic trappings and call baptized believers to COME OUT OF BABLON. They follow the same thesis as Jeff, Rubel etal that you have to DISSOCIATE or drive non-instrumentalists into postmodern schizophrenia to make them FRIGHTENED of defending the Bible and historical warning about "music" in any form as being the deceptive WEAPONS of THE deceiver. If Jeff plants the seed that congregatonal singers are guilty of the worst offense then some of the rabble went home determined to cut up anyone who would question their PRETENDING to be a disfunctonal females when leading the "new praise songs which you can PROCURE on my latest CD." This, too, is proof of being deluded for repudiating the word AS written for non-clergy use.

Walling probably never knew anything about "congretational singing of that which is written which is NOT a capells" beyond Gopher Wood 101aaa. Therefore, he would truly be a "spectacle of worship" if he had ever read the universal EXCLUSION of musical performance from the assembly of God's people, AND the inclusion of all such as originating with SATAN or LUCIFER and connected with the King/queen of Babylon, of Tyre and of the NOW TIME church of the Holy Whore where speakers, singers and musicians are MARKED by John as SORCERERS whose "occupation" is to DECEIVE the world and "blow out the candles" in all of the churches. Therefore, because his foundation was on SAND it was simple simon to let the YOUTH used by Satan WASH AWAY any "traditonal" foundation he had. His OPINIONS count for nothing and he has been the MASS MOVER OF THE MESSES by using his OPINION to TRUMP the God of the universe. He doesn't even know the meaning of "a capella." He doesn't grasp that Jesus SENT the faithful out to MAKE DISCIPLES and did not HINT about EXTERNAL worship and EXCLUDED all that happens outside of the SPIRIT as it is devoted to the Spirit OF Truth the Words of Christ which HE said are Spirit and Life. "Worship" is a word derived from Orpheus "that Thracian" from which we get impure Threskia. He used the Lesbian singers and musicians to pervert SAY and SPEAK or RECITE of Homer and God into SING which is always the MARK and cause of rampant effeminacy: so say all known observers. You can DISCIPLE by TEACHING the Word in simple song but you CANNOT disciple while giving heed to the singy-clappies who CLAIM to have replaced Jesus Christ as the MEDIATOR and therefore "stand in the holy place."

What that means is that the 100% Biblical and historical PROOF is TRUMPED by Jeff who clearly got "stung real good" by some Youth Singers. This writer got stung in Lubbock and helped inport vipers who lied, cheated and stole the happy church and drove the owner-widows out into the cold. So, I KNOW that those songs have been FABRICATED to overcome your rational, spiritual mind and THAT is why SATAN uses music, musicians and dupes to prove that crap doesn't stink.

What COULD have changed people's "opines" but, from all recorded history, but the YOUTH SEDUCED by Satan to sing, play and present a sexual or homosexual PERSONA? The Book of Enoch and all similar documents and ALL of the Biblical examples of INSTRUMENTS see them as the MARK of those who have ALREADY fallen from grace because they rejected the WORD as it has been taught. That is MARKED by WRATH or ORGE seen as speakers who are BUFFOONS or JESTERS and singers-musicians worshiping EROS as the god of WRATH: Paul outlawed the ARMS flying by restricting a teaching MALE to lift HOLY hands (palms) to PREVENT the WRATH or an outbreak of ORGY. Singing, clapping, body movements (dancing), arm LIFTING and instrumental noise is the meaning of the STRONG DELUSIONS or 'wandering stars' sent to put those already asleep from the Muses or Locusts (grasshoppers) who then STING them with their scorpion (skolion songs) STINGERS: where else? in their Tails by which they produce weeping sores. Jokers or actors in the "holy places" are MARKS.

Don't you wonder

WHY they "took names" and conducted a "census" of the number of a capellers who attended? WHAT would be the motive?? You remember the original warrior musician, David, wanted to COUNT his standing army. That is why God slapped him with a JEBUSITE HIGH PLACE, to quarantine the Goyim or Gentile form of worship which the elders had demanded when they FIRED GOD, from the "regular" people who synagogued to REST, READ and REHEARSE the Word where Sabbath outlaws menial "worship" work performed by the singers, musicians and slaughters of innocent animals because of their ESTRANGEMENT from God. And Sabbath outlaws "sending out ministers."

Do you KNOW why they are the end-time EXCEPTION to the rule which always kept "music" away from the "school of the Bible" based on the Bible, all recorded history and minimal common sense?

Did you attend knowing that you would be fed with the word of God "taught as it has been taugh" or did you see this as a "venue for religious rock and roll?"

Did you know WHY that at Tulsa they had a PRO instrumentalist debating a PRO instrumentalist? Do you need a 6th grader to explain? Did they tell you that if you follow the PRO instrumentalists Wailing for Money you will find PRO instrumentalists endorsing the PRO instrumentalists? Did this strike you as sinster, devious, underhanded and a MARK? Do the boards at ACU and Rochester know the meaning of BE AWAKE and keep your clothes on?

Do you feel insulted at being ACCUSED of being an A Capella when the "worshipful starry host member" constellation CAPELLA the goat NURSE of a God gave HER name to the Goat Singers? Did you know that the Pope lusted and lifted a capella, castrated singers while in exile in France. Did you know that he would have been fired if he brought an instrument into the Sistine Chapel where ALL official worship was conducted? This was based on the fact that a Levitical Warrior musician would have been Nadab and Abihued if they DARED to venture into the Holy Place (type of church) EVEN to clean out garbage.

Did you know that modern polluters and corrupters of God use the POPE as authority [also for the JUBILEE]: He permitted the VIRTUAL ORGAN into the chapel by USING the a capella, ala castratos using a singing style called ORGANUM: something like a VOCAL BAND. Being literally or vitrually castrated they would NEVER have been allowed in God's presence because ALL Bible literates would recognize them as PRIESTS of the pagan Cybele (Ashtoreth, Inanna, Sophis, Zoe). The hirelings now tell you that you cannot trust the old "God" of the Bible because HE was not friendly with CASTRATOS and they don't have a clue that THEY are filling the roles OUTLAWED by God because they MARK the invasion of the body snatchers, prostitutes and Sodomites. Peter TOLD me that those who "corrupt" the Word TRAFFICATE as the Lucifer principle or as adulterers.

Did anyone tell you that Halal means "to make self vile" and Zoe is Lucifer called the "singing and harp playing prostitute" in heaven and in the garden of Eden. That a capella represents the worship of the STARRY HOST God abandoned the Israelites to BECAUSE of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai. (Acts 7, Stephe, etc., etc.)

If you are an A Capeller do you feel USED by having your attendance used by the ORGAN (hee haw) of the changeling-hireling defectors as PROOF that YOU also endorsed the use of Muse Teams and instruments in the regular meeting of the ekklesia or school of the Bible where they trained you that if you approach an infinite God (much bigger than Wailing and Money put together) without REVERENCE (at least spirutally falling on your face) and Godly FEAR you are IN LINE and PREDESTINATED for the Nadab and Abihu Maneuver because
God is STILL a Consuming Fire?

Were you tenderized a bit toward instruments by the PRAXIS they "patterned" you through to FORCE you to connect MUSIC to mean WORSHIP? The Book of Enoch and all known history notes that ONCE you make that connect you become HARD WIRED and it is--based on the Bible and other literature--just about imposible to get disconnected. Sound like Crack cocaine?

If you were CONVINCED to go home and introduce instruments into the holy places, would you post: you don't have to tell us your name?

If you are an a capella do you also attend Rock concerts? Do you feel that your attendance AFFIRMS the lives of the performers? What would you think if you went out of curiosity to see the Vilest Rap singer and the Rap Agent of Promotion (R.A.P.) used YOUR attendance as endorsement to Kill the President?

In light of the fact that MANY people attend such events out of curiosity or to "gather evidence" isn't it possible that 1 out of 7 represents an utter failure to INFLITRATE and DIVERT which is a congenital defect of the Stoneites? At Mount Sinai when they rose up to play (musically, perverted) they THOUGHT that the outsiders were laughing WITH them but God said that they were a LAUGHINGSOCK to the outsie world who often attend the "new style worship" to LAUGH AT THEM. When you hear the loud clap, clap uh de clap, Scripture knows this as HISSING or VOMITING on the spectacle maybe subconsiously or unconsiously.

Do you think that Wailing for Money attend these events which are militantly HOSTILE to anyone who won't USE music and USE musicians and ENDORSE their correct positon MAY be based on the fact that FAITHFUL churches and Universities REFUSE to let them on their grounds? Yea, rather to be associated with Ann Coulter than Jeff Walling.

Do you think it DISHONEST not to invite someone who is LITERATE about the Bible and all known history which repudiates the sectarian discord after THEY hatched on the wild frontier of Bourbon County? I tried to communicate with the Pro-instrumentalist but was brushed off. NO ONE seems to know what was said by the Pro-instrumental Non-instrumentalists, Max Lucado. Anyone know? He informed me that he did not intend to point me to his "thesis" or authority: nor will Wailing for Money let themselves be questioned.


At the birthplace of the Stoneites they had many thousands of people who came for the SHOW AND TELL. That included Sheep Stealers at the top going all the way down to prostitutes and sellers of whisky. These "arousals" most important product was a boost in the population on the wild frontier. The arousals had to shut down because the world came for the action. Just as there would have been even before Pentecost, there were many observers who made records of these events so we are not left without an unbiased witness. Here is one brave lady, Francis Trollope, who wrote much about life on the wild frontier defining the preachers and the "desperate housewives."

http://www.piney.com/AwkTrollope1.html

http://www.piney.com/AwkTrollope2.html

She notes that the itenerant preachers PREYED on the women and the women became the virtual leaders in these religious assaults. The men were noted by their absence.

If you read the Bible especially Isaiah and Jesus you will see the LIGHT: if you procure you a CORRUPTER of the Word or Skolion [New Wineskins] singers then you have failed in some early test. Cain and Abel (the two persons motiff) came to offer their offering at the same time: that meant to the ancients that they were TWINS and they were OUTED at the age of 13. As the twig is bent so the tree becomes a tree of "life" or a tree of "Satanic knowledge. In all of the literature, Satan took the youth captive with mixed-sex choirs, instrumental music and all of the seductive "putting on of apparel" Satan knows can ZAP you. That is why corrupt companions can corrupt especially those who "thinketh that they standeth" like the Pharisees who Cut N Pasted and Peddled. Students of the Charismatic movement (perverted where the centering Grace is a brown eyed Greek prostitute) have all observed that it is the URBAN ELITE who are most easily deceived by glitter and blather and music always known to be "fondling the sexual pleasures."

I have posted my thesis several times: if I am correct then we know why those who go for a Phd in theater or philosophy and TURN preacher are blinded by God just as Isaiah, Jesus and others make certain and CANNOT read black text on white paper. That is because they have been trained as rhetoricians, sOPHISts (serpents), singers, musicians and teknokrats and are the SEED of the Serpent, a crooked generation, a generation of vipers. While there is a lot of literal "genetics" statement even by Jesus it may be that as The Book of Enoch etal say that "Satan came into Genun (Jubal and Lamech genes) in their YOUTH and the WEAPON of spiritual destruction is always MUSIC.

The thesis is that the Bible itself contains spiritual DNA and a MARK of a son of the Devil is that he speaks on his own. The MARK of a crooked generation is that they are new empty-sounding wineskiners and use SKOLION or "getting drunk on wine, or getting fluted down with (along with) wine. The familiar spirit of the Witch of Endor was an empty wineskin which sounded hollow and was used as a conjuring instrument: the same meaning applies to the nebel or psaltery or the name NABEL meaning vile. Paul in 1 Cor 13 speaks elouently of that which is NOT COVERED in PhDuh. The mark of CORRUPTERS of the word--as were the Pharisees--is that they cut N splice the Spiritual DNA so that they can "sell it at retail. Or hawk it all about. Or act as spiritual adulters says Peter. Those who do not speak that which has been written as a divine MEMORY (as opposed to the human "collelctive mentality" of the changeling-hirelings) are such PROOF so that we "mortals" can say with a straight face: YOU, sir, (rimes with cur) are a false teacher.

The DIRECT COMMAND which no "pure-mortal" can be confused about is to SPEAK with one MIND and ONE MOUTH using "that which is written" to educate, comfort with SCRIPTURE, glorify God who is the AUTHOR and FINISHER, and PREVENT the sowing of discord (Rom 15). When you PROMOTE the diversites MARKED by diet for easy identification you AS DID THEY HURT THE INFIRM with musical, charismatic rituals (Rom 14). As prophesied, the SEED of the SERPENTS twist Romans 14 to DEMAND that YOU be passive and bend over when THEY take their liberty to INFILTRATE and STEAL your property so THEY can use it as a "theater for holy entertainment" to HARVEST the fleece, flesh and "craunch the bones" which true and APT Sheperds MUST NOT ABANDON to the WOLVES. Thes are also the DOGS who were musical perverts seeing whom they might devour.

That is why The direct command for the qahal, synagogue or "church in the wilderness" was NOT to use the triumph-over or alarm: this was EXCLUSIVE and the MARK of the seed of the serpent is that they use psychological violence promoting INCLUSIVE fellowship with everyone BUT the faithful. The INCLUSIVE command was to REST: rest excludes WORK or MENIAL LABOR. The Levitical Warrior Musicians performed MENIAL LABOR from the word ABAD from which the Hebrew ABADOWN and the Greek Abaddon derives. The menial labor of the MUSES or LOCUSTS-singer-stingers was the be performers of the PERFORMING ARTS and they were noted to be vile prostitutes helping the Greek Apollo seduce people out of their money. Jeff listened to the SIRENS (the stinking human-bird BEASTS) whenhe should have demanded that his friends LASH HIM TO THE MAST of the Ship of God and QUICKLY SAIL AWAY. Most uninformed people cannot resist the MAINLINE drug injection by talented musicians.

That is why the Sirens and Muses are MARKED by the smell of menstrual juices which were CONSUMED in the Love Feasts such as the Marzeah (Amos, Jeremian) and the pagan Agapae. If menstrual odors are wafted around when you are honoring the PATRIARCH, you probably have been invaded by Sophia-Zoe Mother Goddess: Sophia was known as the serpent and ZOE (Eve) was known as the BEAST and female instructing principle. Paul and scholars and commentators who knew the language do NOT see the Eve character as the "mother of the gods" but she is the prototypical usurping woman who failed by ADDING to the Word of God and was wholly seduced in a sexual sense: Paul told me so and all scholarship agrees that the Cainites (from a musical note) handles instruments meaning WITHOUT AUTHORITY and seduced the people into putting THEIR animals into HIS folds so HE could protect them: then, he sold them back to you.

The BIBLE is a HOW TO DETECT vipers, dogs and wolves but the "beast creatures" are subverted by the "holy harlot Circe" in John's warning: if the NOT APT TO TEACH elders invite the WOLVES and DOGS (Cynics, singing and making weird animal noises) in to "eat up your food money" then you are SUPPOSED to be Bible Literate enough to tell the difference. The problem is that if the WOLVES guard the sheep long enough the sheep will follow the "shepherd" out beside the "sounds of might rushing waters" where according to Amos and Isaiah they INTEND to starve you for lack of the WATER OF THE WORD which TRUE sheep will not consume.

Consistent with the PROMISE of strong delusions, when Jeff says that he NOW believes that instruments are acceptable, you must NOT accept his opinions as factual and THAT was the premise of inviting the fallen in to affirm the fallen: the old Book of Enoch story which no PhDuh knows.

 
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Roger Bradley
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64.185.31.101

Read Your Bible

October 22 2006, 10:14 PM 


Donnie, you said:
"Some prominent preachers of the change movement have said, “if you accept Christ, you are my brother.” At first I was shocked by this bold statement but then I chanced to find its origin. The late Winfred E. Garrison, liberal spokesman for the Disciples of Christ denomination, made the same statement some 48 years ago."

Actually, Jesus Christ, the apostles Peter and Paul, among others said it, over 2000 years ago. It's in the Bible. You should check it out. It makes for interesting reading.


 
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Ken Sublett
(no login)
69.19.14.42

Urban Legends Mean Ugly Lies

October 23 2006, 11:46 AM 

Rog, I hate to be ugly: my mom said that it was congenital.

I have just ordered the book and I will copy and paste the REST OF THE STORY for you. I have NEVER read a Hystical PhDuh who could quote the Bible or history in context. Even people who PRESUME to write an encyclopedia of the RM can't say it STRAIGHT. They ALL have agenda and they ALL have Campbell's statement BRANDED on their forehead and hand: "There be christians in all of the sects." And if one expert not allowed to read BLACK text on WHITE paper says it at what Ezekiel dubbed "workshops of evil where prophets go to steal words one from another" then EVERYBUDDY better ditto head it or they will not be INITIATED as a brethren or cisterin.

Nextly, a child DOES NOT get to pick his sibblings: did you no dat? Father and Mother play roulette with those million egg cells and billions of spermy thingies and takes what they get. This person may accept anyone who accepts Christ as HIS brother but that does not qualify him as MY brother: I leave that harsh judgmentalism up to the Father Jesus Christ who ADOPTS us (regenerato) by washing us and clothing us and gives us a NEW NAME. Max Lucado might accept anybuddy whut buys my book: he assuredly said that anyone who can call God "Father" is okey dokey. I think he said something which I loosely translate as "you just look up and say WOW." Well, I don't consider anyone who can say WOW or AWESOME or EXACTLY even of my species: Adam Clark identified the NACHASH (serpent or musical enchanter) as a type of babboon which articulate things like WOW. Or they might--as the changelings-hirelings do for a profession--say "Did God REALLY say that?"

I understand that the old coon hunting fraternities did some odd things to accept you as a "brother." "Iffen yal will swaller yore chaw, drank a quart of my latest lead-based snake bite remedy and have sex with my best bitch THEN we will shake your whatever and you are ONE of us." Hear about Skull and Bones? An old neighbor told me how to make a hound follow you everywhere you went. Wanna know how?

Now, Rog, tell us where you RED that partial quote sos we can see for ourselves: my book gonna take a week or so to get here. Like I say to those who misuse honorable or dead men as a hate weapon against those who will not bow when they blow (Jesus just said no to his initiation which was worse than a coon hunter): YOU QUOTE IT and I will SMOTE IT.

 
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What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

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Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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