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Donnie Cruz
(no login)

Contemporary Style: Tired, standing for long minutes during "praise"

July 29 2006, 2:29 AM 


Forgot something. It is not uncommon in a few congregations where there is a long period of "Praise" Music with instructions from the "Worship Leader" for the congregants to stand up all the time while singing a series of singy-clappy praise songs.

There are not that many who lift hands, but I notice that the ones who do experience tiredness. Funny, most of the time these few folks are unable to maintain the strenuous act of raising their arms for that long, therefore, the "act" is interrupted. [Just thought of something very funny -- can you imagine some of the European women who don't shave their armpits and wearing short-sleeve tops ... raising their arms?]

Anyway, speaking of standing all through the praising and clapping period, I really feel sorry for those with disabilities ... or even the strong -- they, too, get tired of standing for long minutes just because the leaders have it organized that way and them brainwashed that way.

Talking about organized religion. Good thing most of the congregations are not into this charismatic-led environment.


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(no login)

"Making a mountain out of a molehill..."

July 29 2006, 2:34 AM 

You speak out of one side of your mouth that IM is wrong and that we are to sing acappella..

Then out of the other side of your mouth,you say that acappella is wrong because it is a performance...and is no better than IM..

Maybe a rule book from the bible might be helpful..Since acappella is authorized and IM is not...Do you have those rules for us to see...It seems all your talk is from your point of view..We need some HS instruction on corporate worship...If we can sing and make melody in our hearts to God,what are the restrictions according to the HS..?

You're making a mountain out of a molehill...Well,maybe a little smaller than a molehill..

God bless,Peck

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)


July 29 2006, 8:26 AM 

Whether a soloist, an ensemble group, or a full choir sings a cappella or with instruments, if they do so in a worship service while the rest of the congregation is silent and listening to them, then they are performing. Worship is not about performing. It's the natural tendency for audiences to focus on performers and their talents. When performers are made a part of worship services, audiences by nature focus on them rather than on God. Therefore, it is better to stick with simple, a cappella congregational singing, where no one person or group can possibly be made the center of attention.

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(no login)

Making fun of a song with these words:"

July 29 2006, 2:38 AM 

There's something wrong with someone who makes fun of a song with these words:

You're my brother, you're my sister,
So take me by the hand
Together we will work until He comes

There's no foe that can defeat us
When we're walking side by side
As long as there is love, we will stand


What part don't you like, UB, the brother/sister part, the working together part, the walking side by side part? Oh, wait, I know what part you don't like: "As long as there is love, we will stand."

That's why Madison is still standing. Kinda sticks in yore craw, don't it?

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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: Making fun of a song with these words:"

July 29 2006, 8:51 AM 

After having read a number of posts that v-jo has made at FaithSite, I need to make a short observation. Her responses to conservative Christians are usually defensive and sarcastic, sometimes quite hostile. Studying her phraseology, I envision a person scowling and frowning, maybe even grinding her teeth, as she pounds out negative responses to anything the conservatives have to say. V-jo implies that Untruth Buster objects to lyrics that mention "love," yet I've never noticed any remote trace of "love" in any of her responses to the conservatives. That seems to be a common scenario: Detesting the biblical truths that the conservatives present, the liberals accuse them of not having "love," when in fact the liberals, by their hostile responses, are the ones failing in "love." That indeed is hypocrisy.

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Dr. Max Moon
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Re: Making fun of a song with these words:"

July 29 2006, 4:32 PM 

Dr. Bill, one Dr. to another, you talking to V-jo about hypocrisy, is like the pot calling the kettle black.

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)

"Pot Calls Kettle Black": A Dying Insult

July 29 2006, 5:59 PM 

Two spiritual mavericks, Max and v-jo, have both used the insult "pot calls kettle black." That's an old, well-worn, and used-up insult. Come, come, now, I expected more creativity. But I guess after a while, the insults dry up. You can only stomp, scream, and yell, "pot calls kettle black, pot calls kettle black, potcallskettleblack" so many times before it just fizzles out and loses its "zinger-ness." Whatever, vain attempts at insulting me over and over still don't diminish the fact that v-jo has accused the conservatives of lacking love because they preach hard biblical truth, yet she manifests nothing but hostility and anger toward them, the very thing of which she accuses the conservatives. That's called hypocrisy, and Max supports her for it. Quite predictable from two spiritual mavericks. And BTW, that's no attack, its just plain fact.

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Donnie Cruz
(no login)

When you continue to defend the divisive ... issues

July 29 2006, 5:32 PM 


I think I have reached a point where it is pointless to explain anything anymore to you. I am just showing you what's happening out there in a FEW of the congregations that have succumbed to this Change Movement thingy -- how very destructive it is and how it is dividing the church needlessly. When you continue to defend the divisive CONTROVERSIAL and/or UNNECESSARY issues, you are not helping one bit. That's all I am trying to say.

I'm not even into discussing what is or what isn't sinful -- as you make it sound like. But the reality is that these issues are causing alienation among your brothers and sisters in Christ. If you don't ... and as long as you don't ... fully realize and recognize this fact, I have nothing else to say that will change your mind.

"Prevention is better than cure," as the saying goes.

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(no login)

What's the church coming to? ... Instrumental music is God's plan....

July 29 2006, 5:36 PM 

Here's your sign... I mean quote:

"There's also a Contemporary, Charismatic "Christian Rock Music" HYMN titled "Clap Your Hands" [not kidding, BTW] that the leader and his Praise Team performs for the congregation. The Team and the willing participants thoroughly enjoy this "love feast" as they sing, "Clap your hands all ye people, shout to God with a voice of triump, clap your hands ... Alleluia, alleluia! Alleluia, alleluiah!"

I can not believe the heretics at Madison would sing this charismatic rock song. What is the church coming to ? It comes from of all places.... PSALM 47!!!!

That's in the Bible. Maybe you've heard of it. It's also commonly referred to as God's Word.

Instrumental music is God's plan. You better start using it!

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Donnie Cruz
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Clapping ... and hissing and "multiplying words against God"

July 29 2006, 5:44 PM 


I wonder about that, too.

  • 2Kgs.11:[12] And he brought forth the king's son, and put the crown upon him, and gave him the testimony; and they made him king, and anointed him; and they clapped their hands, and said, God save the king.

  • Job.27:[23] Men shall clap their hands at him, and shall hiss him out of his place.

  • Job.34:[37] For he addeth rebellion unto his sin, he clappeth his hands among us, and multiplieth his words against God.

  • Pss.98:[8] Let the floods clap their hands: let the hills be joyful together

  • Isa.55:[12] For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.

  • Lam.2:[15] All that pass by clap their hands at thee; they hiss and wag their head at the daughter of Jerusalem, saying, Is this the city that men call The perfection of beauty, The joy of the whole earth?

  • Ezek.25:[6] For thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast clapped thine hands, and stamped with the feet, and rejoiced in heart with all thy despite against the land of Israel;

  • Nah.3:[19] There is no healing of thy bruise; thy wound is grievous: all that hear the bruit of thee shall clap the hands over thee: for upon whom hath not thy wickedness passed continually?


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Dr. Max Moon
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Spiritual MAVERICK?

July 30 2006, 8:12 AM 

Dr. Bill Crump,

I am hardly a spiritual Maverick. I am not and have never been part of a Sign Out Front, Church of Christ.

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Ken Sublett
(no login)

The old Vineyard, etal making God come, huh?

July 31 2006, 12:15 AM 

    You're my brother, you're my sister,
    So take me by the hand
    Together we will work until He comes

Hee Haw, a Fraudian Slip Showing! The goal of all MUSICAL religion was defined as SORCERY (Rev 18:22f). The goal, confirmed by The Vinyard Mother, was to reach a sexual-like or literal climax with the spirits. Among the voodoo people who fueled the Stoneite wing of the Restoration Movement, they knew that the spirits would not come without lots of emotion.

Just what KIND of work are you going to do while holding hands? Isn't work a legalistic thing? Music is the most legalistic, superstitious works-intensive rituals ever concocted to AID the gods to keep them from failing to come.

Defining the Abomination which makes DESOLATE (starved for the Word) in the Jerusalem temple and in the end-time church where the musicators CLAIM to bring you into contact with God, Dionysus the New Wineskin God depends on music to bring on a perverted, KNOWING relationship with one another CLAIMING that you were having sex with the "gods" meaning "demons." When God pours out the CUP OF HIS WRATH the word is ORGE or ORGY which is WHAT is happening at Madison and all churches where the musicators replace the preacher: gradually at first but TOTALLY in time. At Madison their stated goal was to turn the church into a THEATER FOR HOLY ENTERTAINMENT. The word is THEATRON meaning MAKING A SPECTACLE OF JESUS CHRIST who as SPIRIT cannot be made to COME.

"And Euripides does likewise, in his Bacchae, citing the Lydian usages at the same time with those of Phrygia, because of their similarity:

But ye who left Mt. Tmolus (Sardis was on this mt.), fortress of Lydia, revel-band of mine, women whom I brought from the land of barbarians as my assistants and travelling companions, uplift the tambourines native to Phrygian cities, inventions of mine and mother Rhea [ZOE].

And again, happy he who, blest man, initiated in the mystic rites, is pure in his life, . . . who, preserving the righteous ORGIES of the great mother Cybele, and brandishing the thyrsus on high, and wreathed with ivy, doth worship Dionysus.

Come, ye Bacchae, come, ye Bacchae, bringing down (double entendre) Bromius, (boisterous one) god the child of god, out of the Phrygian mountains into the broad highways of Greece.

And Rubel Shelly prays: "Come Holy Spirit, come, make us truly new creatures in Christ"

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(no login)

You call it a "Christian Rock Music" HYMN?

July 31 2006, 4:32 AM 

What I love about you, is the fact that you are the only human (or troll) on the planet who can sit in an acapella worship service, and accuse them of singing rock music. It's funny. Not "funny", HA HA... "funny", Rain Man.

The best part is when you call it a "Christian Rock Music" HYMN.


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(no login)

Instead of causing dissension and downcasting...

July 31 2006, 4:39 AM 

You just seem very negative, to the point where you seem like you don't enjoy attending the church at Madison. If this is correct, then you should leave.
Your suggestion about the Christian church also applies to you. Since you know so much about singy clappy, contemporary Christian music then maybe that is the place for you. I like the church of Christ that I attend, unlike you where you have an aggressive attitude towards your leaders there at Madison. Again, instead of causing dissension and downcasting, perhaps you should find a more fundamental church that is more low key, and teach the doctrine that you prefer.
Being negative about the leadership and worship style where you currently attend is not spiritually healthy for you U.B. That kind of stress eats away at you physically also.

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Myth Buster
(no login)

"... your staying power at Madison"

July 31 2006, 4:42 AM 


I admire your staying power at Madison. "Life is a caberet, ol' chum. Life is a caberet!' LOL!

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(no login)

Read some of his trash at CM

July 31 2006, 4:46 AM 

Myth Buster and Untruth Buster. Are y'all brothers?
Your parents had a thing about naming their kids variations of the word "Lie" didn't they?

Read Acts. Tell me what is honrable about Donnie's "staying power" at Madison? After you read Acts, read some of his trash at CM. How long do you think that behavior would have been tolerated by the 1st century apostles and elders?

If he's not happy at Madison, and wants to sit there and be miserable, who cares?

If he wants to get on the internet and publicly humiliate and criticize his elders in the most unbiblical way possible, who cares?

When he starts getting obnoxious, is when he tells everyone to leave thier churches instead of causing trouble. Real admirable Myth.

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Myth Buster
(no login)

"I have been reading your [Amazed's] post"

July 31 2006, 4:49 AM 


Yeah, I would like to consider UB a brother.

Second, you are no different from those you criticise. I know because I have been reading your post.

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Donnie Cruz
(no login)

Not interested in fighting the elders; it's the "Worship Leader" thingy

July 31 2006, 4:55 AM 


You might be interested in this bit of info. When I decided to begin posting, I thought Myth Buster was a cool nickname. Then, I made up my mind -- I substituted the word "untruth" for "myth" and have used "Untruth Buster" since. Cool stuff, eh?

I still feel that this brother in Christ is cool. In fact, I have re-posted one of his original messages from a few years back. Check out the thread "Myth Buster: 'Great Invitation'" that I posted yesterday (7/15/2006).

I'm not interested in fighting the elders; neither am I "not happy"; nor am I obnoxious -- just trying to point out that the "Worship Leader" thingy and the "Praise Team" created the unfortunate church havoc early in 2001. If and until you're capable of accepting that fact, there's nothing else I can explain to you (Amazed) and Servant, Walt, Brian and your other cohorts.

You're so focused on dissension and criticism on my part when the division in the church should be attributed to what occurred in 2001. I had/have nothing to do with the hundreds of members leaving. It appears now that I have a much better chance or success of explaining that to an elementary school kid.

With literal seed and YTBH speaking of pruning, that hardly signifies the mass exodus of alienated members due to the "Worship Leader" and "Praise Team" thingies. The truth of the matter is that these are the controversial and unnecessary divisive elements (Worship Leader and Praise Team) that need to be pruned badly.

Amazed, your untruth has been busted.

Untruth Buster

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Ken Sublett
(no login)

Young dogs turn old TRICKS?

July 31 2006, 9:03 AM 

Amazed, I am NOT surprised that anyone could get BURNED with a DEGREES. Servant, I am not 80 and the depression years were the best years of my life. How many GAMBLERS jumped off tall buildings? Psalm 47 points to the JUDAS PRINCIPLE. Judas was Judas Sicarri: he was an assassin. According to traditions he was a HASHISH MAN who would betray anyone for money. The Judas bag was for "carrying the mouth pieces of wind instruments." Drunk and always pictured as perverted flute players. When he found out that he had failed he did the ONLY honorable thing by hanging himself. I can tell you as a PROPHECY that when the musicating CHURCH STEALERS from widows wake up (too late) to the horrors of their failure WE will have us some mass "blood redemptions."

The history of the great REVIVALS resulted in many suicides. A speculator is stupid but not EVIL: the universal history of using MUSIC to CLAP hands to CAPTURE weak and effemate males is beyond any crime ever perpetuated on humanity. Satan's best WEAPONS are always YOUNG mind-damaged by sound bytes elders and false preachers.

I am amazed that people are old enough to claim to be disciples who can DISHONOR God and His Word and then just to HIT BACK to TRY to SILENCE any oppositon to what John and ALL musical words identify as SORCERY or WITCHCRAFT. You should be DISTINCTLY HONORED because we are told that for ONE WARLOCK there are 10,000 WITCHES to feed your face. I am telling you FLAT OUT that Satan has you by the tail and you CANNOT read a passage of Scripure in context without perverting it.

You have no reason to KNOW this but take it on faith: God turned Israel over to WORSHIP THE STARRY HOST so when you trust David you are involved with Saturn or Chaldee 666. He picked kings to CARRY OUT the captivity and death sentence finally imposed when the elders (wolves = perverts) fired God and demanded a DOMINANT PREACHER (king). He PROMISED them in Scripture--which you have no reason to have heard about--exactly what He was going to do and the Warrior Chariot Musicians was a CURSE. Sure, God loved David so instead of destroying the WHOLE NATION he quarantined DAVID at a pagan Jebusite High Place called Jerusalem and Sodom.

You could never have heard--and retained--the fact that the Levitical Warrior Musicians were under the KING and COMMANDERS OF THE ARMY. The civil-military-clergy sacrificial system had NOTHING to do with the people who SYNAGOGUED and any nit wit would have known NOT to blow the trumpet or sing when the WORD of God was being read or recited.

(To the chief Musician, A Psalm for the sons of Korah.)

O clap your hands, all ye people; shout unto God with the voice of triumph. Psa 47:1

Clapping IS an instrumental panic sound--the Startle Reflex USED by ABUSERS:
    Taqa (h8628) taw-kah'; a prim. root; to clatter, i. e. slap (the hands together), clang (an instrument); by anal. to drive (a nail or TENT-PEG, a dart, etc.); by impl. to become BONDSMAN (by hand-clasping): - blow ([a trumpet]), cast, clap, fasten, pitch [tent], smite, sound, strike, * suretiship, thrust.
When the musicator makes you MOVE TOGETHER (Hee Haw) he is BONDING you to himself and FORCING you to march LOCK STEP and GOOSE STEP -- I call it GOOSE CLAPPING . When the CHURCH IN THE WILDERNESS was called into assembly it was only for hearing instructions. Therefore, the ALARM or TRIUMPH OVER was outlawed: that outlaws hand clapping as if any nitwit would need a LAW forbidding it when Jesus meets as oue ONLY Master Teacher.
    Num 10:7 But when the congregation is to be gathered together, ye shall blow, but ye shall not sound an alarm.
This word has the same meaning as the HAND CLAPPING to make you "move together" (Hee Haw).
    H7321 rua roo-ah' A primitive root; to mar (especially by breaking); figuratively to split the ears (with sound), that is, shout (for alarm or joy): blow an alarm, cry (alarm, aloud, out), destroy, make a joyful noise, smart, shout (for joy), sound an alarm, triumph.
The CLAPP word is used to define how a woman BETRAYS and MURDERS a man she had given shelter too. No, dumbo, that is NOT an approved example just as the CLAPPING is not an approved example.
    And Ehud put forth his left hand, and took the DAGGAR from his right thigh, and THRUST it into his belly: Jud.3:21

    And Jael went out to meet Sisera, and said unto him, Turn in, my lord, turn in to me; fear not. And when he had turned in unto her into the tent, she covered him with a mantle. Jud.4:18

      And he said unto her, Give me, I pray thee, a little water to drink; for I am thirsty. And she opened a bottle of milk, and gave him drink, and covered him. Jud 4:19

    Again he said unto her, Stand in the door of the tent, and it shall be, when any man doth come and enquire of thee, and say, Is there any man here? that thou shalt say, No. Jud 4:20

      Then Jael Hebers wife took a nail of the tent, and took an hammer in her hand, and went softly unto him, and SMOTE the nail into his temples, and fastened it into the ground: for he was fast asleep and weary. So he died. Jud 4:21
I don't see how anyone could CLAIM or even want to be a disciple and try to SMASH the Words of Jesus Christ (Spirit and Life) by trying to belittle their betters.

You, dear CLAPPER, are a wife BETRAYING people and AFFLICTING them just as God prophesied of the SORCERS in Revelation 18. This is the SAME bad WALL STREET: when WE get the world wised up, YOU are going to discover that you have been STEALING from widows and doing the JUDAS ASSASIN or CLAPPING or THRUSTING a daggar into the belly of widows. Isn't it WONDERFUL that Satan made sure that you would never try that on REAL MALES or RATIONAL (Spiritual) women but pick on the WEAK. I think this may be God's final GENERIC ENGINEERING.

Don't kiss it off as the product of an OLD mind: older people learned things BEFORE your were born and stay WAY AHEAD of you on anything that has happened since. That is just PROOF that you are a changeling-lostling and in The Book of Enoch you are doing just what you are supposed to do knowing that you have fallen and will never get back up.

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(no login)

Something stinks!!!!!!!

July 31 2006, 10:44 PM 

Why are several of the posts from the same IP?

What stinks? The IP address? or several of the posts?

Did you read the statement that explains the source of the "online" conversation?

This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address on Aug 1, 2006 1:14 AM

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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