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(no login)

The leaders made a lot of changes; it caused a lot of problems

August 1 2006, 7:45 AM 

Nice dodge. Now, try answering what I asked you.

I don't doubt that when the leaders at Madison made changes it caused a lot of problems. I wasn't there, so I don't know, or care to know, the details. I don't know or care to know who was right or wrong.

What I am saying is this. The changes are made. It is a fully functioning church with elders. If they are wrong, they will answer to God and Him alone. YOUR choice is to follow them or leave. I honestly don't care either way.

What bothers me is your atrocious criticism here and CM of the church and it's leadership. Then, your continuous calls for people to leave their churches instead of causing trouble.

If you can not see the hypocrisy in that, we are done discussing it.

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Untruth Buster
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You have left the church and "joined" another

August 1 2006, 8:02 AM 


Nice try. I'm the one who is not deviating. Neither are many of the other members who are still there. What makes you think I am against several hundred members who have stayed? I [not you] DECIDE to stay or leave according to my own volition.

In your case, you are the deviant, the non-conformist, the defiant one ... to the point that you have left the church and joined another. So, what business do you have in the church you left????????? In fact, why did you leave the church? You left ... and I have no intention to do the same as you did. Gotcha!

Trust me, just because there is such a thing as the "loud minority" group that you have aligned with comfortably doesn't mean that the "silent majority" is going to go along with you and your deviance.

You have left the church. It's really time that you leave it alone for good.


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(no login)

"Why do you criticize the worship leader and the worship service?"

August 1 2006, 8:04 AM 

You say..."I'm not interested in fighting the elders; neither am I "not happy"; nor am I obnoxious -- just trying to point out that the "Worship Leader" thingy and the "Praise Team" created the unfortunate church havoc early in 2001."

You're not interested in fighting the elders? You might not be, but you don't mind humilitating them here on this public forum time and time again. You say that you are "not happy?" Why do you then criticize the worship leader and the worship service? The singing is a huge part of the worship service. If the worship service doesn't isn't something that spiritually uplifts you, the why are you there? What purpose does going the church service do you at all? Go to someplace where you actually care to be. If this isn't obnoxious on your part U.B., then what do you call it? Constructive criticism??? No U.B., it is not!

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(no login)

"Madison is in the buisness of boosting people like myself..."

August 1 2006, 8:06 AM 

Untruth Buster,
You are not facing reality..The reality is that all large congregations have a variety of thinkers..We blend but never fully agree on all the happenings that go on within the fellowship..It's called being a normal church..

You,on the other hand, have made something normal into something exceptional..Worship style has no power to add or subtract from the grace of God..When Jesus sits in your assembly,he sees a Donnie that he loves..He understands human nature..I have no right to speak for Madison but in my heart I believe that if you responded as so many people do in the service..that they would gather around you as they do everyone else and hold your hand and pray with you....They are your family and I gaurantee that your worship leader would welcome you into his home and treat you as if you had never said a word about him...You are in a good place...I wish I had your faith..I have as much religion as you or SE ...but my faith needs a boost and Madison is in the buisness of boosting people like myself...

Stir up love among the brethren not division...Our congregation has an outstanding worship leader who is paid..Do you think every body is happy..I hardly think so..and some of the elders decisions are leading us into a different world than what we are used to in the CoC...Do you think every one is happy? I hardly think so...But,we accept our elder's decisions and respect each other as christians and continue as one..some leave..but only in peace...It's normal Donnie..You are making something normal into an exception...If the people on this board could witness your contemporary service..Some would not see it any different from a traditional service..

However,our heritage as CoC is understandable and your reasoning is understandable..It's just that change is happening in the CoC and we have a problem adjusting to it..Have a great day ....

God bless,Peck

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Myth Buster
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"Amazed ... [you] display the attitude you accuse those of having"

August 1 2006, 8:09 AM 

Madison being a large church does have a variety of thinkers as Peck mentioned.

The 7 churches of Asia had a variety of thinkers as well, i.e. Nicolatians. In none of these letters were any members exhorted to leave. Not because of lack of modern innovation either. Persecution from outside the Jeruselem church blows that theory out of the water.

Amazed, if you are wondering why I don't bother with your questions it is because your original questions are 'digs' and not real questions. This simply reinforces the fact that you very much display the attitude you accuse those of having. If you don't see your hypocracy then I really am done with you as far as having a meaningful discussion.

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Untruth Buster
(no login)

The havoc in 2001

August 1 2006, 8:14 AM 


I do not like saying this -- but you need to really stop your silly defense of your son-in-law, Keith Lancaster, Madison's self-designated "Worship Leader" who, along with his "Praise Team," caused the havoc in 2001. Why can you not see this?

I have nothing to do with the COLOSSAL mess he did when he had the nerve to intrude and interfere with the assembly of Christians meeting at 10:30 AM by bringing in his choir performing with their very loud microphones. I myself almost jumped out of my seat! "What in the world is that?" Surprisingly, to my knowledge, none of the very senior saints had a heart attack.

It has not been the same since ... as attendance has dwindled to half the size.

And you accuse me of being the troublemaker? It is your son-in-law and his musicians!!!!!!

It's also time you stop making excuses such as ... that it was a fire hazard for the newly created third group to continue meeting in the basement. In case you didn't know this, Peck, the one who screamed "Fire!!!" happened to be the Chief of the Metro Fire Dept.

The newly formed "charismatic" third group did not have to interfere with the assembly at 10:30 {which had been there for ages). That group could have set another time or schedule to meet.

You know the common defense mechanism of the change advocates? It is this: "If you don't like the change, it's your fault ... it's your problem ... you do not have love.

That's what you KEEP telling me, Peck.

Hey, deal with the source of the problem.

Untruth Buster

P.S.: Don't forget [IOW, REMEMBER] that there are still HUNDREDS in the fellowship who do not support your son-in-law and his performers. If you think the gathering is about MUSICAL WORSHIP which comprises 70% of the entire period [that's 60 of 90 minutes], I honestly think your concept of the purpose of the assembly is misdirected. Let’s see: At one gathering your son-in-law directed his Praise Team to some 18 musical pieces. And many of these were either 7-11 singy-clappy rah-rah-rahs or songs written by “Christian Hot Rock” artists.

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(no login)

"My goodness, Keith needs no one to defend him."

August 2 2006, 4:42 AM 

I do not come in defense of anyone at Madison..I merely wish to express the truth about what has happened and what is happening now according to what I witness...My goodness,Keith needs no one to defend him..A man who has followed his calling by God,while people as yourself have rediculed him in the brotherhood for 20 years...I back him not defend him..of course not all love his ministry..It's normal in a large church..Any youth minister,worship leader,elder or even some of the women who oversee certain activities knows that..It's a price they pay for being leaders..

You make it appear that the elders are not in charge ...

It's obvious that you never attended the basement missed a lot..The crowds were so large that when adults came in,the young people would let them have their seats and they would stand along the walls and even sit in the floors..little small children were so enthused about the service that their little faces were full of joy and they participated in the service...The lessons were extremely well taught..but any adult in the audience could see that a large crowd like that was a safety issue...My town would not approve of it..It was dangerous as a fire hazard..

Donnie,If anything That I have described in my posts have not been true please have someone to correct me...I speak the truth of what I witnessed..It's not a defense but accurate information..I saw it with my own eyes..but they are old eyes..If I'm wrong..correct me

It's not my place to speak for that great congregation...I may be out of turn by doing so..In fact,I may be doing more harm than good by talking with you..I'm a free man,and speak my mind...I like you..but can't understand your brain...

God bless,Peck

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Ken Sublett
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The PERVERTED model Paul warned against.

August 1 2006, 12:32 PM 

John Calvin informs us that "there is no statute of limitations on Heresy." Nor, do the elders have ANY command authority and they are--if APT--to be the ONLY pastor-teachers of the EKKLESIA or school of the Bible. In NUMEROUS Biblical and historical churches that meant to READ and DIALOG a portion of Scripture each week. The goal of TEACHING the Biblical text only was to LEARN something and not feel like you have been to the local topless bar with MALES performing the roles UNIQUELY reserved in cities like Corinth for prostitutes or perverted males. Their DIRECT COMMAND is to "teach that which has been taught." They have no authority to add:

The ACT of preaching: that heresy didn't arrive for hundreds of years
The ACT of singing: that heresy arrived about 400 years too late"
The ACT of "laying by in store." THAT IS A RECENT LAW.

Jesus died to OUTLAW those adding spiritual anxiety like DEBT and mind-altering, sexual-stimulating RITUALS specificially outlawed by the word REST.

Beyond that, the elders and the AUDIENCE are partners and NO one should be THREATENED PSYCHOLOGICALLY by saying they should LEAVE. The TROUBLE MAKERS should leave. COVERING UP a sin is just as vile as COMMITTING the sin of turning "school of the Bible" into a CRACK HOUSE where the CRACK is "endorphins" induced by the AROUSAL displays.

Elders are normally BUDDY SELECTED and if they have no sense of morality or KNOWLEDGE of the meaning of APT TO TEACH then they have NO SPIRITUAL AUTHORITY. OBEY means to "listen to and heed what they TEACH (defined as INSPIRED TEXT) and to "watch the outcome of their lives."

From Iamblicus defining the EGYPTIAN rituals enacted by Israel when the ROSE UP TO PLAY. For that God abandoned them to this IDOLATRY and what you see under the KINGS in defined below. Why would ELDERS (unless WOLVES) turn the church over to what Paul warned AGAINST. TIME does not make a CRIME into WORSHIP.

"In addition to these things you remark as follows: "So also certain others of these ecstatic become entheast or inspired when they hear cymbals, drums, or some choral chant, 21 as, for example, those who are engaged in the Korybantic Rites, 22 those who are possessed at the Sabazian festival and those who are celebrating the Rites of the Divine Mother." [ZOE] 23 [Sabazianism was the worship of the STARRY HOST to which God abandoned the Isralites]
    Note 21. Some exhibition of this kind is described by the Apostle Paul in the first Epistle to the Corinthians. "If," says he, "the whole assembly come together to the same place and all prattle in tongues, and common men should come in, or unbelievers, will they not say that you are raving?" [Paul equated that to MUSIC]

    Hence he counsels that only two or three should speak in turn, and one interpret; but if nobody present is capable of this, they should keep silence, and speak only to themselves and to God:

      "for not of tumult is he a god, but of tranquility." (Ovid; Fasti IV,

      "The attendants beat the brass, and the hoarse-sounding hides. Cymbals they strike in place of helmets, tambourines for the shields; the pipe yielded its Phrygian notes.")

There is evidently a deeper meaning in all this than is commonly apprehended.
    Note 22. The Korybantes are variously described. Their cult was identified or closely allied to that of the Kabeirian [homosexual] divinities, and that of the Great Mother.[ZOE] It was celebrated in the islands of the Aegean Sea and in Phygia. Music, dancing, processions, and ecstatic frenzy were characteristics.

    Note 23 Sabazios, Sabaoth, or Sabbat, the god of the Planet Saturn [Chaldeee 666], was better known as Bacchus or Dionysos, and was also styled in Semitic countries, Iao or Yava. His worship was more or less associated and identified with that of the Great Mother, under various designations, and it was characterized by phallephoric [carrying the penis like MICROPHONES] processions, dances, mourning for the slain divinity, and the Watch Night. It came from Assyria as its peculiar symbols, the ivy or kissos, the spotted robe or Nimr [Nimrod], and the Thyrso, indicate.

    The name Zagreus the Kissos and nimr remind us of Kissaia or Asiatic Ethiopia, and the Zagros mountains occupied by the Nimr. Assyria was called "the land of Nimrod." -Amos VIII.

    IVY is the mark of the TRINITY.
It is proper, accordingly, to tell the causes of these things, how they came into existence, and what explanation there is for the performing of the Rites.

These allusions which you make, namely, that the music at these festivals is exciting and passionate; [OUTLAWED BY PAUL]
    that the sound of the flutes [vocal bands] CAUSES or heals conditions of aberration; A
    that the music changes the temperaments or dispositions of the body;

    that by some of the choral songs the Bacchic frenzy is excited,
    but by others the Bacchic orgies are made to cease;
26. With the Korghantians, this represented a guard about the Demiurgos or Creator; with the Kuretes, it denoted a protecting of the divine maid Kora.
    Note; 26. Servius remarks that the Sacred observances of Father Liber, the Roman Bacchus, related to the purification of souls. This cleansing, as here declared, was considered to be [Original Sin] not only from contamination acquired by coming into the conditions of physical existence, but also from guilt actually incurred.
Thou seemest to think that those who are enrapt by the Mother of the gods are males, for thou callest them, accordingly, "Metrizontes";
    yet that is not true, for the "Metrizontesæ" are chiefly women.
    A very FEW, however, are MALES, and such as may be more DELICATE. [Malakos meaning SOFT: the Catamites] [Paul warned that OUTSIDE the spirit THERE BE DOGS]

    This enthusiasm has a power that is both life-engendering and perfective, in which respect it differs from every other form of frenzy.

    Proceeding thus, after this way, into what remains of the present discussion, and distinguishing particularly the inspirations of the Nymphs or of Pan,
The word ORGE is PROOF that God is pouring out His WRATH where the MARKS are the singers and musicians UNDER the Mother Whore and John called them SORCERERS.

You don't GET PREFERENCES in the ASSEMBLY: Paul excluded those in Romans 14 so you could focus on the WORD in the ekklesia while OUTLAWING the SELF PLEASURING connected to the creation of MENTAL EXCITEMENT.

CULTURE never gives one permission to HURT OTHERS to turn church into an EFFEMINATE and EFFEMINIZING entertainment center.

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Ken Sublett
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No AUTHORITY "beyond the WORD of God."

August 1 2006, 11:42 PM 

The elder was in the FRONT LINE leading the troups into battle. Or they were on the front line fighting of the WOLVES (perverts) wanting to eat up the lambs. They have NO command authority because Jesus was SHEPHERD and not demagogue.

Their authority DEMANDS that they "call the assembly and keep order." When the assembly dismisses they have NO authority to hire STAND OVERS as insincere preachers or musicians which are defined by the same word as PROSTITUTES: selling the Free Word at retail or selling THEIR OWN compositions and THIS defines the Scribe, Pharisee and HYPOCRITE (performer)
    "We have frequently used the term 'officers' with reference to the servants of the church. We have frequently affirmed that in the ordinary use of that term an 'officer' is unknown to the Christian scriptures...An officer in the ordinary acceptation of the term is one who is appointed to do a work, which he could NOT do without that appointment and to which, without the official investiture, would be a crime...can an overseer consecrated as as he may anything as such that every Christian is not at liberty, and even is duty bound to do to the best of his ability" (David Lipscomb, The Gospel Advocate, 1867, p. 567)

    "Controlling the church by virtue of authority of office is unknown in the Scriptures. All should seek to control simply and only through the authority of truth, impressed by lives of godliness, purity and love." (Lipscomb in The Gospel Advocate, 1871)

    "Hence elders and deacons, whatever may be meant by these words, can do nothing by what is called official authority into whch they are to be installed by something called ordination. Whatever is done by them must be done by the WORD of God, and not by any official authority to them." (Gospel Advocate, 1898, p. 280).

    "No man, therefore, has any arbitrary or official authority in the church of God...The word of God, not their personal decisions by their own wisdom, must be the rule, the law, in all things pertaining to the service of God." (E.G. Sewell, GA, 1897, p. 292)

The LIVING WORD cast out the Musical Minstrels LIKE DUNG. The written Word ALWAYS connects Music to children (female only please), to Satan, to warriors, to sacrificial exorcists, to prostitutes and Sodomites.

Here is how you preach in the synagogue
    For Moses of old time hath in every city them
    that preach him,
    being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. Ac.15:21

That is what Paul commanded Timothy and there is NEVER any singing in the SYNAGOGUE of Paul on mission or by Timothy: they would CAST HIM OUT as a pervert.
    Till I come, give attendance to (public) reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. 1 Tim 4:13
Here is how the Elders Rule
    Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. 1 Tim 5:17
The ELDER is due an HONORARIUM or voluntary gifts IF he is already "laboring to the point of exhaustion in preaching and teaching." (Word and Doctrine.)

That is the PATTERN established by Jesus, commanded by Paul and practiced by ALL faithful churches.

Madison is NOT an ekklesia and it HAS NO QUALIFIED ELDERS or they would not have USURPED authority in the same way WOMEN were forbidden: that is AUTHENTIA which is both EROTIC and MURDEROUS.

Eat, drink and make Mary, but you ARE NOT REMOTELY a kissing cousin to a faithful church and the elders are WOLVES.

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literal seed
(no login)

"... hindsight is 20/20, and it could have been done better"

August 3 2006, 3:13 AM 

peck and donnie,

just to clarify some things that have been disputed here...not that it matters.

i attended the 10:30 services in both places during the last month before the move. the numbers continued to dwindle in the main worship area. it may have been down to around 400 total. the last week i attended in the fellowship hall, we sat in the overflow room that is used for dinners and special events when only 50 or so are in attendance. there must have been 100+ just in that room, full hallway in both directions coming off the fellowship hall and a full fellowship hall. i'd guess better than 700 in attendance. common sense would dictate that a move was in order. hindsight is 20/20, and it could have been done better. there are none that disagree with that. one of our elders, both then and now, held the position of fire chief prior to that occurrence. based on his experience, i would trust his opinion in matters such as that. the evolution of the contemporary service has been met with mixed responses. some chose to leave immediately, as donnie has reported. some chose to change to the traditional service. some have come and gone since then. to those that remain or now attend at madison it's no longer a big issue...except for donnie. he has joined the campaign to warn the brethren elsewhere of such dangerous events. let freedom ring! shout it from the rooftops! i still don't understand why he continues to attend assemblies that he knows will not be pleasing to him or to God(in donnie's opinion). if i felt like he does, i'd seek other fellowship.


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(no login)

"... as long as the concerned members continue..."

August 3 2006, 3:16 AM 

Thanks Chuck...I feel out of place speaking for Madison...I probably need to vacate this board as long as the concerned members continue...

Did you pick up on the way that the little children acted so happy during the basement assembly..I believe if Donnie could have witnessed the worship service there,his attitude would be different..He has a good soul..

God bless,Peck

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(no login)

"Keith was not ever a 'self-appointed worship leader'"

August 3 2006, 3:21 AM 

"I do not like saying this -- but you need to really stop your silly defense of your son-in-law, Keith Lancaster, Madison's self-designated "Worship Leader" who, along with his "Praise Team," caused the havoc in 2001."

Donnie, why do you repeatedly lie about this? Keith was not ever a "self-appointed worship leader". Not only is it a lie, it would never have been allowed to happen if he or anyone else had tried to be self-appointed about anything. But he didn't.

So, again I ask, why do you continue to repeatedly tell this lie? There is no way around it, Donnie. It is a flat-out lie.

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Untruth Buster
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"There are many talented men at Madison who can do..."

August 3 2006, 3:25 AM 


If you're speaking of a professional job in a religious setting, you would be correct. There are many talented men at Madison who can do "the service for the Master" free-of-charge. This "God's servant" has his own musical "a cappella" organization in the name of "religious" [OK, OK, OK--it's a religious business], but yet is being paid big buck$ to wag his arms and have his Praise Team sing to and for the congregation. The big buck$ are mis-spent. The funds could be used for more evangelism and benevolence.

If you're speaking of his arrogance, yes, he is a self-designated "Musical Worship Leader" who SINCERELY believes that he is leading congregants into God's holy presence.


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(no login)

"He's being paid so that he can focus..."

August 3 2006, 3:29 AM 

Sorry, Donnie, "arrogant" is not a word I would use to describe Keith.

Keith has been gifted by God, and he uses that gift for God's glory. He's being paid so that he can focus time and energy on his ministry. Sorry, but I don't think his bucks are out of line for a large congregation in a large city with multiple full-time paid staff.

I've seen plenty of worship/song leaders in my lifetime. Keith is one of the best. Maybe even THE best.

May I remind you of these thoughts:

Eph 4:31 - Get rid of all bitterness, rage, anger, harsh words, and slander, as well as all types of malicious behavior. 32 Instead, be kind to each other, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God through Christ has forgiven you.


Have you forgotten that he is your brother?

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Untruth Buster
(no login)

"There are many folks ... who can do the wagging of arms for free. "

August 3 2006, 3:35 AM 


I'd probably give Keith a higher rating for his musical talent than you would. The problem with your analogy is that you're confusing a natural gift which Keith has with a spiritual gift. Music is not one of the spiritual gifts.

You're also confused about the man-made professional job of "Worship Leader" whose human job description is to lead "God's children" into their heavenly Father's holy presence. As it turns out, the "Worship Leader" and the choir (Praise Team) are performers. Congregational singing has survived for so long and is better WITHOUT them. (And don't equate the "Worship Leader" and his co-performers with someone who just leads or starts a song.

No, there is such a word as "arrogant." It is defined by his behavior on stage.

No, you did not get my point about the big buck$. The saints' collection is not designed to pay for a man-made professional job in the church. There are the needy saints and the poor out there. His $alary can support SEVERAL evangelists in third world countries.

Besides, I seriously doubt that God has placed MUSIC at the top of the priority list in regard to the Christian's eternal destiny -- if at all.

The size of the congregation has nothing to do with the musical performance issue. As I said, there are many folks in large congregations who can do the wagging of arms for free. That ... I might call real service for the Master.


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(Login Peck123)

my name on this thread and what is said is without my permission..

August 3 2006, 9:22 AM 

Hi everyone,
Just a one time post to let you all know that I have no respect for this website..I believe it to be an embarressment to the body of,I don't post here..

However,I do respect Donnie and Ken and Dr and Jimmy..They are my dear brothers and as much as I need grace..I give them mine as best I can...

It's not my place to speak for Madison since I live 3 hours away..But during the split,I was in Nashville on Sundays(I forget now why)..and I witnessed with my own eyes the transformation...

This topic was preceded by what I determined as slander on the elders and worship leader in a different website(so I confronted him) and Donnie had the poor taste of putting it over here without permission..Sure,it's legal but bad manners in my opinion..

It seems that Ken can say anything about authority and get away with it here...I'm old and still have it in my head to honor and respect eldership wherever it is...but it's not my place to control Donnie's actions..Only as a fellow christian do I plead with him to stop this agenda against the body of Christ..It's ugly..Mutual respect and tolerance should reign..not this website...

Worship style is a choice and each of us can select our place and time to worship...

Blessings to each of you...Peck

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Donnie Cruz
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But this website is FOR [not against] “the body of Christ.”

August 5 2006, 12:50 AM 


I think you should personally thank this site for posting several of your posts. I gather that you would want the online audience to read your messages, would you not? You see, too, that there are others whose messages have been posted. And they have no objection to posting without permission, do they? In fact, I think, they like the idea. (So, I think we now have the permission issue solved.)

Guess what? Interestingly, and out of curiosity, I decided to count the number of times the word “elder” or “elders” or “eldership” has been mentioned in the discussion so far, i.e., in relation to your reference to “slander on the elders.” Literal has mentioned it 2 times, Amazed 3 times, and Peck123 14 times. See your constant accusation that I slander the elders? What is your agendum?

By the way, Peck, there’s so much more to worship than just the “style” controversy or the “choice of worship style.” If you think of style as being the order of the “acts” or the number of songs, that’s not even an issue. If performance is associated with style, then, that is an issue. If 75% of the assembly period is dedicated to musical worship and 25% to the Lord’s Supper and to the teaching and learning of God’s truth, then that would be quite an issue. Furthermore, if the overdose of musical worship includes songs that teach untruths, then that would also be quite an issue.

Now that you have actually posted, we’ll just have to let our readers decide. Meanwhile, I shall continue to post more messages from both sides and let the reader decide.


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(no login)

Your slander of Lancaster is on the web for the entire world to see.

August 5 2006, 5:27 PM 

Donnie - Whatever, Donnie. Knock yourself out. Your slander of Lancaster is on the web for the entire world to see.

Go back and read 1 Cor. 6:10 again. While you've got your Bible out, read the book of James. It seems you missed that one.

And 1 Cor 11. How can you share at Jesus' Table every Sunday morning with Keith while carrying this blatant hatred in your heart? "Whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and the blood of the Lord." And from Jesus: "...leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother..."

Time is running out.

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(no login)

"... A colossal salary? Are you privy to the church checkbook?"

August 5 2006, 5:31 PM 

Just a few observations sprinkled with some facts.

1. I have never heard Keith or anyone make the statement that he was "leading you into the presence of God." If anything is "announced," it is something like, "Let's worship God together."

2. What special knowledge do you have, Donnie, that Keith makes a colossal salary? Are you privy to the church checkbook?

3. Though one of Madison's members was fire marshal at the time of the wonderful worship in the basement, it was a disgruntled and bitter woman who kept making calls to the fire department those last few weeks to complain about a service she didn't even attend. She made the calls from the main telephone at the welcome center. She is the same woman who would show up prior to services afterwards to copy down all the attendance numbers so she could then leave and drive to her "new" church to report with glee when numbers dropped. This is a factual statement from a personal observation. Poor woman needs to get a life. Many of her own 1st degree relatives are still at Madison and pray for her.

I could go on and on but you get the picture. The ones I know personally who left (and there are many) would complain if Jesus himself gave the sermon... they wouldn't like his attire, etc. I hope that they are happy and truly hope they are working for the Lord elsewhere but I don't miss them!


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Untruth Buster
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Job Description: "Worship Leader"

August 5 2006, 5:37 PM 


Keep on skipping significant points. The BIG buck$$$$ -- the saints' collection could be much better used in evangelism and benevolence. If he is not profiting from his own business in the name of religion, $$$ from his seminars, musical engagements, etc., I can somewhat see his reason for another professional job in a religious setting. Still, though, his arm-wagging exercise a few hours a week is over-compensated. As I have already mentioned, there are many talented men who can voluntarily help lead singing [and alternating or rotating their schedule would be good] ... so that the church will not be burdened with having to employ a concert director for huge $um$ of dollar$.

Go search online. Some of the job descriptions: “worship leaders have some special access into God’s presence that the congregation doesn’t have” [WOW!] …

“An effective corporate worship leader, aided and led by the Holy Spirit, skillfully combines biblical truth with music to magnify the worth of God and the redemptive work of Jesus Christ, thereby motivating the gathered church to join him in proclaiming and cherishing the truth about God and seeking to live all of life for the glory of God.” Hmmm! What about this in comparison: “And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers…” [Eph. 4:11]

… and “worship leaders” [Eph. 4:11b, KLV]

What about someone saying: “As I studied Scripture and read books like Engaging with God by David Peterson and Adoration and Action, ed. by D. A. Carson, I quickly realized that the Bible, especially the New Testament, didn’t give much space to my role as a worship leader. None, to be exact. The more I read, the more I felt I was reading myself out of a job.

There are more descriptions out there.


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There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

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Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
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Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

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Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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