"Concerned members is not healthy for the body of Christ"
|August 11 2006, 12:27 AM |
It's not your thinking that churches should be considerate about making changes that I'm against...It's just that I wish to expose your slander with the facts..
You claim to know the heart of the worship leader and slander his talent before the body of Christ..Your worship is being hindered not by him but by your own inner conflicts...
There was nothing wrong with those people leaving..It's our privilege to go to another congregation if we don't fall in place with the one we are in...Are you speaking for them?..Are you a self appointed leader for those who left? If someone was slandering your family,would you think that confronting them with the truth would be attacking?
I see that you and Piney and some others have an agenda to put a new division upon the church...An agenda not about salvation matters (which you admit it's not)...but..about matters of opinion..choices that congregations can make..with the authority of God being with them...Let it go...If it's not the best thing,it will wear itself out and new ideas will take it's place..Change will happen..
Concerned members is not healthy for the body of Christ..It's about grumbling against opinions not salvation matters..I think your idea that I'm attacking you is only your conscience having to face the facts that your slander is a lie...
It's not my place to control your behaviour..Your elders are great men of faith..They don't need me to help..Contemporary is just a worship style ..It's an expression of faith..no better or no worse than traditional style...Quit slandering my family
and I will quit opposing you..
It's about "controversial and/or unnecessary changes"
|August 11 2006, 12:31 AM |
May I say this politely, since you keep advising me the same old thingy? You should be giving your advice to those who are that eager to change God's directives for the church. I think you are too old to be unwisely accepting any controversial and unnecessary changes that come your way -- salvation issue or not. Remember the KEY WORDS:
CONTROVERSIAL AND/OR UNNECESSARY CHANGES
That's the simplicity of my message.
Believe me: Slandering God with "musical worship" and "Praise Team" performances and fallacious teachings and distorted biblical messages in the songs ... is worse than your claimed slandering of your precious son-in-law. My messages concerning the "Musical Worship Leader" thingy are no different from pointing out the misdirections that Rubel Shelly and Max Lucado are taking the church to.
Sorry, but "an ounce of prevention is [MUCH MORE THAN] worth a pound of cure."
"This concerned members thing is a defiance of the freedom that we have in Christ"
|August 11 2006, 12:47 AM |
What you have in your heart about our CoC heritage and keeping it from changing is in the hearts of people in most all congregations..I understand and have no problem with that...We need to tread lovingly into changes..
Let me say that I appreciate you saying that your stand is not built on matters of salvation..Our congregation is full of those who think as you..but..we are changing rapidly..some leave in peace..most stay but still honor our leadership...It's just normal Donnie.You have plenty of company with your perception of how a worship service should be...
What is wrong in your case is your defiance of the leadership that you are a part of...Do you agree with Phil's preaching..or Brother White's ?
Do you agree that singing acappella is ok and that it is alright to do so? Do you agree that it is alright for the elders and those from the congregation can come forward "with" the one responding to the invitation to pray with them and encourage them.....?(my thoughts are that some who left thought that this was pentacostalism )
Do you agree that proper prayer is being done? Do you believe that the communion service is in honor of Christ's death? Do you agree that many baptism's are happening and that each one is treated in a special way? Do you agree that the love feast is a happy time for most(I'm timid and don't enjoy them but that's my problem)...Do you agree on the fine programs for the community? Do you agree that that the young people are edified and encouraged? Do you agree in the closing prayer?
Why are you fixated on the song leader and rebel so fiercely..letting your heart lead you to come in late not caring that your brothers and sisters are worshiping in song..Where is your heart Donnie? Is it in defiance of change and you fail to see the beauty of the service?
Let go Donnie..This concerned members thing is a defiance of the freedom that we have in Christ..I'm so thankful that you recognize that the concerned members stuff is not a salvation matter..It's an attempt to keep peace in the congregations by not making changes..ok..but the way you are gong about it is wrong...Your idea is not the problem..It's your pride..
However,I realize that you take pride in the cross and I also realize that you are far more a theologian than I...I envy your faith but not your religion...Anger is a common problem for us all...Your expression of anger toward your leadership should be kept private and not expressed publicly...
Oh well...God bless you,Peck
"... you want a 1950's church"
|August 11 2006, 12:54 AM |
untruth- (most appropriately named poster of 2006 award-winner)
When you fell out of the stupid tree, you must have hit every branch on your way down. Do you know where there is a church that exactly resembles a first century church?
You know why? Because no one would go to it. Churches have to CHANGE Donnie. You don't want a first century church, you want a 1950's church. The number of those like you are thankfully getting smaller... and smaller.... and smaller.....AHHHHHHH, you're melting!!!!!!
By the way, a mature Christian, even a mature person, Christian or not, does not use the word "thingy". Not straight ones at least.
"The "1950s church" is a trademark defense label coined by the change agents"
|August 11 2006, 12:57 AM |
The "1950s church" is a trademark defense label coined by the change agents ... whatever that signifies.
No, Amazed, the thousands of congregations are not melting. That's only your sad hope that they will. Maybe, it is your deceived mind melting! I can tell. Besides, as you claim, your family ... your parents and other members are still in the church that, only in your own mind, is melting.
Churches "have to" change? No way ... only a few congregations with liberal-minded elders have implemented instrumental music in the assembly. Just look at wave runner's Oak Hills congregation -- an example of the notion that "churches have to change."
|R E [Rick]|
"... still wearing those white gloves"
|August 11 2006, 1:00 AM |
Say hi to Ward and June Cleaver next time you see them. I hope she's still wearing those white gloves.
"... but several centuries ago..."
|August 11 2006, 1:02 AM |
Maybe, I was born, not a generation or two ago, but several centuries ago. I'll say "hi" to the Cleavers, nonetheless.
"Change is a sign of life."
|August 11 2006, 1:05 AM |
The church is a living, bearthing entity, not an inanimate object.
Change is a sign of life.
No change is a sign that rigor mortis has set in.
"God's truth is not changing. Neither is the bride of Christ, His church. "
|August 11 2006, 1:07 AM |
So, is the truth, God's Word. It is living, indeed! But it is not changing. God's truth is not changing. Neither is the bride of Christ, His church. There is not a sign that "rigor mortis" has [or should] set in -- either in the truth or in God's kingdom.
elders="men who must give an account."
|August 11 2006, 1:12 AM |
amazed writes: "...you (UB) said: "I've never rejected authority in accordance with the Scriptures. You're certainly confused about plain authority versus authority that is God-directed."
Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you"
Jimmy replies: elders="men who must give an account." Another way we could state this would be "as accountable men."
All that Donnie is trying to do is get the elders to be accountable to the membership that they were selected to serve and there is a membership side to accountability.
Anyone who believes that the elders are not accountable to the Christian individuals that they serve is confused as to what being a leader is all about.
"What Donnie wants is to control the leadership."
|August 11 2006, 1:16 AM |
Donnie does not mean "accountable" in the same sense Scripture means it.
"All that Donnie is trying to do is get the elders to be accountable to the membership that they were selected to serve and there is a membership side to accountability."
They have been. What Donnie wants is to control the leadership. Not make them accountable to the congregation, because they already are. Not to obey the leadership, as Scripture instructs (he forget the verse part of that verse - obey so their work will be a joy). Big difference in what Donnie wants and what Scripture says.
"The leadership of 2000 imploded!"
|August 11 2006, 1:19 AM |
v-jo. you are wrong. The leadership of 2000 imploded! That leadership refused to be accountable to the congregation and the results of that can be read at CM.
How many elders stopped eldering at Madison? How many deacons stopped deaconing at Madison? What happened to the other song leaders at Madison? Where is Ray Walker? Where is Nick Boone?
You and peck and others are not defending the church and truth there, you are defending the results, i.e. the church that has emerged from the ungodly actions of the elders that bought about an unwelcome change.
Apollyon and His MUSES or LOCUSTS have landed!
|August 11 2006, 5:49 PM |
As Anti-Christian and Anti- the church and Anti-RESTJesus died to give us to liberate us FROM the musical anxiety creators, DEFENDING it and Demonizing those who oppose the HOSTILE TAKEOVER to, as confessed, change the church into a THEATER FOR HOLY ENTERTAINMENT, is as evil and wicked as one can get. The GUILT CLAUSE has always been pulled out by the ANTI-Christians to blame the victim being shot by the SECTARIAN for squirting blood on his/her dancing slippers.
So, don't try the old SLICK SLUG trick and lead silly women astray with you. Madison is NOT an ekklesia or synagogue of Christ but a PAGAN WORSHIP CENTER or all known Biblical and secular history has no meaning. I know that Peck is pretty good at denying plain facts.
Peck, you are complicit when you accuse those DELIBERATELY DISCORDED with the discord the hireling-changlings BOAST that they have to do before they can BREAK DOWN all resistance. So, don't expect Ken Sublett to be PUT OFF by the well agreed upon effort to shift the blame.
The sounding brass was, in effect, a Pipe Organ which reproduced certain pitches of speech or music. The "wind" of the speaker "blew" across the theater into the "pipe" with the same effect of a modern instrument.
1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
For the literate Paul points to all forms of musical "religion" as pagan. EVEN if you could do all of those things and had no love it would have no value. Paul DOES NOT commend any of them.
Remember: We finally gotta tell 'em that we gonna make this church a THEATER FOR HOLY ENTERTAINMEN. Fine, Just in time to fulfill prophecy. I have been waiting for GOD'S spectacle!
The acoustic properties of a Greek theatre would be naturally good, since the actors had a high wall behind them and a rising slope in front. Vitruvius, indeed, says that artificial aid was sought from brazen vessels, which the Greeks call êcheia, so placed in the auditorium as to reverberate the voices of the actors. He even speaks of these resonators as being nicely adapted to the required musical pitch (ii. 1, 9). The theatre at Aizani in Cilicia has a series of niches above the diazôma: and similar niches exist elsewhere. According to one view, these niches held the êcheia, while another connects them merely with the substructions of seats. The statement of Vitruvius leaves no doubt that êcheia were used, at least sometimes, in the theatres of his own day: but it remains uncertain whether such a device was employed by the Greeks of an earlier time.
Echeion, to, ( [êchos] ) drum, gong, Plu.Crass.23, Apollod. ap. Sch. Theoc.2.36, Procop.Gaz.Ecphr.p.153B.; tambourine, as head-dress, Herm.Trism.in Rev.Phil.32.254; used for stage-thunder, Sch.Ar. Nu.292; as sounding-boards in the theatre, Vitr.5.5.2.
II. in the lyre, = chalkôma, apptly. a metallic sounding-plate, Hsch.; so of the palate, Gal.UP7.5.
2. Adj. êcheion organon sounding instrument, Ph.1.588, cj.ib.444,510.
Organon, 3. musical instrument, Simon.31, f.l. in A.Fr.57.1 ; ho men di' organôn ekêlei anthrôpous, of Marsyas, Pl.Smp.215c ; aneu organôn psilois logois ibid., cf. Plt.268b ; o. poluchorda Id.R.399c , al.; met' ôidês kai tinôn organôn Phld.Mus.p.98K. ; of the pipe, Melanipp.2, Telest.1.2.
Echetês , ou, ho, Ep. êcheta^ , Dor. achetas , acheta, ( [êcheô] )
A. clear-sounding, musical, shrill, donax achetas A.Pr.575 (lyr.); kuknos E.El.151 (lyr.); epith. of the cicada, chirping, êcheta tettix Hes. Op.582 , AP 7.201 (Pamphil.); achetat. ib.213 (Arch.): abs., achetas, ho, the chirper, i.e. the male cicada, Anan.5.6, Ar.Pax1159 (lyr.), Av.1095 (lyr.), cf. Arist.HA532b16,556a20: Orph.A.1250 has Ep.acc. êcheta porthmon the sounding strait.
Donax n1 n2 n3 [from doneô, "a reed shaken by the wind," cf. rhips from rhiptô]
Luke 7:24 And when the messengers of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
don-eô, A. shake, of the effects of the wind, to de te pnoiai doneousin they shake the young tree kardian to agitate one's mind, hêmas edonêsen hê mousikê, II. of sound, murmur, buzz, of bees, prob. in h.Merc.563; d. throon humnôn rouse the voice of song, Pi.N.7.81:--also in Med. or Pass., luran te boai kanachai t' aulôn doneontai Id.P.10.39 ; of bees, Choeril.2; rhoizêmasin aithêr doneitai Ar.Av.1183 .--Poet. word, used in Ion., X.Smp.2.8, and late Prose; of medical percussion, Aret.SD2.1
"Yobal (Jubal). (Note: Jubilee or "a blast of trumpets" is from Jubal which means "to lead with triumph or pomp.") and Tobalkin (Tubal-Cain), the two brethren, the sons of Lamech, the blind man, who killed Cain, invented and made all kinds of instruments (or metal weapons) of music.
"Yobal made reed instruments, and harps, and flutes, and whistles, and the devils went and dwelt inside them.When men blew into the pipes, the devils sang inside them,
And Satan had been made ruler (or prince) of that camp Fol. 12b, col. 2. And when the men and women were
stirred up to lascivious frenzy by the devilish playing of the reeds which emitted musical sounds, and by the harps which the men played through the operation of the power of the devils , and by the sounds of the tambourines and of the sistra which were beaten and rattled through the agency of evil spirits, the sounds of their laughter were heard in the air above them, and ascended to that holy mountain.
But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft (clothes of a Catamite=male prostitute) raiment? Behold, they which are gorgeously apparelled, and live delicately (effeminate), are in kings courts. Luke 7:25
They expected that the "prophesiers" would be male prostitutes who would help you locate a goat or serve your needs. Jesus identifies the HYPOCRITES by point to Isaiah and Ezekiel 33 to point directly to the "love" songs and well played instruments.
Luke 7:26 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, and much more than a prophet.Pi.N.7.81 Pindar, Nemean Odes 7
 For he lives in a city that loves music, the city of the Aeacidae with their clashing spears;  and they very much want to foster a spirit familiar with contests. If someone is successful in his deeds, he casts a cause for sweet thoughts into the streams of the Muses. For those great acts of prowess dwell in deep darkness, if they lack songs, and we know of only one way to hold a mirror up to fine deeds
 if, by the grace of Mnemosyne with her splendid headdress, one finds a recompense for toils in glorious song.  Skillful men know the wind that will come on the day after tomorrow, and they do not suffer loss through the love of gain. The rich man and the poor man alike travel together to the boundary of death.  And I expect that the story of Odysseus came to exceed his experiences, through the sweet songs of Homer,  since there is a certain solemnity in his lies and winged artfulness, and poetic skill deceives, seducing us with stories, and the heart of the mass of men is blind.
Strike up the song! The Muse welds together gold and white ivory with coral, the lily she has stolen from beneath the ocean's dew.  But in remembrance of Zeus and in honor of Nemea, whirl a far-famed strain of song, softly. On this spot it is fitting to sing with a gentle voice of the king of gods.
To plough the same ground three or four times  is poverty of thought, like babbling "Corinth of Zeus" to children.
Id.P.10.39 Pindar.Neaman 10.  Once Perseus, the leader of his people, entered their homes and feasted among them, when he found them sacrificing glorious hecatombs of donkeys to the god. In the festivities of those people  and in their praises Apollo rejoices most, and he laughs when he sees the erect arrogance of the beasts.  The Muse is not absent from their customs; all around swirl the dances of girls, the lyres loud chords and the cries of flutes.  They wreathe their hair with golden laurel branches and revel joyfully.
HERE IS WHERE THE SINGERS VIOLATE THE DIRECT COMMAND OF PAUL TO CONSIDER THE INFIRM WHO ARE MOST AFFLICTED WITH MUSICAL SOUNDS WHICH AROUSE ANXIETY
No sickness or ruinous old age is mixed into that sacred race; without toil or battles  they live without fear of strict Nemesis.
The Muses work for Apollo, Abaddon or Apollyon. The Muses are identified as the LOCUSTS who werel to be unleashed by Apollo the "having fallen star."
Tettix cicala, Cicada plebeia or allied species, a winged insect fond of basking on trees, when the male makes a chirping or clicking noise by means of certain drums or 'tymbals' underneath the wings, a prov. for garrulity,
Plato calls them hoi Mousôn prophêtai,
Musical prophesying is defined by John in Revelation as SORCERERS.
Usually used with:
Aeidô [compare the morphological problems with aeirô]
I. to sing, Il., etc.:--then of any sound, to twang, of the bowstring, Od.; to whistle, of the wind, Mosch.; to ring, of a stone struck, Theocr.
1. c. acc. rei, to sing, chant, mênin, paiêona, klea andrôn Hom.:--absol., aeidein amphi tinos to sing in one's praise, Od.:--Pass., of songs, to be sung, Hdt.; aisma kalôs aisthen Xen.
2. c. acc. pers. to sing, praise, attic
These are the LOCUSTS or musical performers under Apollo who is the Apollyon or Abaddon of John. In Revelation 17 they SERVE the Babylon Harlot and the singers and musicians in Revelation 18:22 are called SORCERERS by which they deceived the world.
Sounding brass intends to DECEIVE and overpower the paying audience.
That is why when Moses heard idolaltry at Mount Sinai he said: "It is SINGING that I heard." Paul put the SPEAK or SAY in the human spirit and said nothing about external MUSIC.
APOLLYON is the HAVING FALLEN STAR and the Musical Ministers are the MUSES or musical prophesiers John identified them as under the Babylon Harlot performing SORCERY. ALL singing and musical terms in the Greek text are defined as ENCHANTMENT or SORCERY.
And that, enemy of the Word, is why you CANNOT ever repent if we believe the Biblical and other testimony about music being the MARK or the STING of the Scorpion tales of the Locust or musical agents of Satan.
THOSE are the facts and no one can refute them. You accept them or get ready for God to beat you into HELL (maybe already) with music according to Isaiah 30. Being a capella means ORGANUM so the NO INSTRUMENTS is just a legalistic dodge.
"... because Madison, geogr. & demogr., is not as desirable for upscale...."
|August 12 2006, 5:39 PM |
Ray Walker resigned as song leader many years ago to go on the road with an Elvis Presley tribute show. I saw him 1 month ago at the Nashville Flea Market (shopping). Nick Boone and his family live on the other side of Nashville now. I believe he and his lovely wife moved there because most of their family lives in that area. I love them both and have seen them many times in recent years. Many former members have moved away because Madison, geographically and demographically, is not as desirable for upscale living as it once was. That is not an insult to anybody, just a fact of urban life.
Ask Donnie what happened to the elders who left Madison. I am not going there, but a few rocks have been overturned and what was underneath was not pretty. The current eldership is alive and well and leading the congregation just fine. They have been hosting luncheons for small groups over the summer to converse one-on-one with families and answer any questions members have.
"... Nick is Pat's kid brother... a truly lovely man."
|August 12 2006, 5:42 PM |
You probably already know this, but Nick is Pat's kid brother... a truly lovely man.
"... from that point forward the power struggle in the eldership began...."
|August 12 2006, 5:47 PM |
[since you mention huntin fishin and skinnin], that's who we had as a minister after dr. flatt left. you would never hear him call himself doctor...just steve. i remember jimmy's(sites) first lesson after coming to madison. he took his shoes off and left them at pulpit side left, and walked down to floor or pew level. he said those are my shoes and they fit just fine. i'll never try to fill ira, steve or anyone else's shoes. i can't and don't believe God wants me to. he said he would make just two promises for all to hear. he held up his bible and said, " if it's not in this book you will not hear me speak about it...if it is in this book, you most likely will...if you are here to hear it. it may make you uncomfortable, but God's Word is truth that will set you free." from that point forward the power struggle in the eldership began...behind closed doors.
jimmy wren...the implosion as you call it was and is a pruning of branches. they started by stopping jimmy(sites) from speaking some of the things that he wanted to teach about...but it wasn't time anyway...God's time. he has moved on as many others have at madison. they come and they go...just like at your assembly. don't they come and go where you are? i thought that was just natural. what we see now is a strong nucleus of servants, just as we always have had, who are growing in Spiritual freedom with some of the traditional shakles removed. the ones that didn't approve of the eldership's decisions have moved on. from my interaction with some of them as i've visited other assemblies in the area, there are happy ones and sad ones. i believe that's just the way it is. i'm almost 60 now and have been a part of Messiah's redeemed for almost 25 years. one thing i see in all people as they age, especially in the church, is that they are just like the fruit of the vine. they either get mellow and sweeter with age...or they turn to vinegar.
ps...with a sister like ytbh, how could i ever complain?
"Others will not even acknowledge my existence."
|August 12 2006, 5:50 PM |
Literal Seed said, "one thing i see in all people as they age, especially in the church, is that they are just like the fruit of the vine. they either get mellow and sweeter with age...or they turn to vinegar."
Chuck, you hit the nail on the head with that one! As you know, I have been at Madison since I was a very young child. I have known most of the senior saints all of that time. I was sad to see some of them leave and miss them still. I still greet them warmly whenever I see them in other places (the grocery store, funerals, etc., etc.) Some are just as precious as I remember. Often they will volunteer that they didn't want to leave, but had family pressure or just hated being in the middle of strife and I totally respect that.
Others will not even acknowledge my existence. That is very telling to me. Bitterness is hard road to walk. I don't think it is a coincidence that many of the ones who fall into this category have suffered a variety of physical problems in recent years. Yes, they are advancing in years and part of this would be natural and no, I am not saying this is a judgment against them... NOT AT ALL, but that the bitterness in their hearts is affecting their physical health and that is VERY sad.
I will say that, in my observation, the group of elders we have now is the most united and harmonious group I have observed since the early 1980s. God is good and HIS timing is perfect.
"There is ONLY ONE HEAD at Madison unless I miss a bet."
|August 12 2006, 5:56 PM |
If you prune 'em and tune them then they all look like Buck/ (Hee Haw). This is the crowd which got diverted with Don Finto and Rubel Shelly. I think there is only ONE mind up there.
Jimmy was probably the windmill TILTER when he began partnering with the Christian churches (Disciples as observers) to confess the divison (over instruments of course) and as part of the Christian church's gulping up of preachers as they did with Rubel.
The fact is that the Stoneites had their origin at Cane Ridge among an outbreak of witchcraft which sounds like fairly modern "christian" devil worship in Iraq. There was never any UNION other than some churches agreed to meet in the same building. Churches of Christ which existed in all ages never fell into this "awakening" and those who agreed to participate in the same buildings found the organ forced in and the owners forced out. J.W.McGarvey was refused the right to oppose the forced introduction of instruments in his own church. Because, they said (as they did at 4Gvn's hostile takeover) "that would SOW DISCORD."
You can peg the EGG LAYING when Madison teamed with Shelly for the Jubilee which must have been mid 1985-7(?) and the bonding with the Christian church was the motive of men like Rick Atchley, Shelly etal in AFFIRMING them. That would be as big a stretch as to bond with the Baptists.
There is ONLY ONE HEAD at Madison unless I miss a bet.
"... SEE IF IT MATCHES MY HYPOTHESIS."
|August 12 2006, 6:00 PM |
"There is ONLY ONE HEAD at Madison unless I miss a bet."
LOVEB, I THINK I MAY AGREE. POST HIS INITIALS HERE AND I WILL SEE IF IT MATCHES MY HYPOTHESIS.
"... but it looks like a serpent. "
|August 12 2006, 6:03 PM |
Can't do that but it looks like a serpent.
Did YOU ever see that fire chief outfit? That's still got me and the rest of the department puzzled.