[fyi: walt is an ex-church member; Donnie is Untruth Buster]

Those like untruth and piney will do anything to protect their traditional upbringing (which is based upon ego centric characteristics, a main reason why untruth won't leave Madison and why piney supports this carnal logic). Jesus no doubt would include them in this saying:

"Woe to you, scribes and pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves." Matt 23:15

AMEN!!!

God has been pruning the branches there to bear more good fruit for His Kingdom. The fruit is becoming more abundant. I look forward to the local outreach that must take place to the needy in our community from the Hispanic heritage. We need that revival to demonstrate His power and stop focusing on our abilities. Through the last 5 years of challenge God has been faithful. It's understandable how the elders have had reservations regarding available resources for that cause. I see their faith increasing regularly and continue to pray for them and lift them up in support.

blessings and peace,
ls

[fyi: walt is an ex-church member; Donnie is Untruth Buster]

peck,

The mentality of untruth (as seen by his posts and by knowing others first hand like him) have only one purpose in their agenda, and that is to tear down what Madison has built up from their biblical stance.... untruth's ego won't let him leave and because of this he lack's Christ like humility. Madison's humility has tolerated untruth's stubburn pride in all this. Even if untruth really thinks he is right and Madison is wrong, humility in this senario must take place by him - but what has taken place instead is - SELF PRIDE. In this case there has to be a departure before a reconciliation. [walt]

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

Edited to identify poster as "walt" instead of "anonymous" {content unchanged}

[ServantForHim attends an "a cappella" (non-instrumental) congregation ... and is about to become an elder]

U.B.:
Can't applause and that clapping be for God??? You have a problem with clapping and applauding God? How do you know that the clapping is for the Praise Team?
Donnie, everyone should sing. Like you said, God hears them. God doesn't hear bad notes. He hears the heart. So what if a person isn't a good singer. Sing anyway. It is about Praising God, remember Donnie?

You have a problem with the Praise Team using microphones, but not the preacher? If God can hear the Praise Team without mics, then the assemby and God can hear the preacher. The storys of this countrie' first preachers were of those who spoke to thousands, and never used mics. Why do you not say anything about the preacher, or just a single song leader using the microphone?
You have problems with the words 'Oh, I love you God....I love You!'
Donnie, I believe that it might be you that has problems. Hmmmmm???
Chrisitan music pieces are not written by POP ROCK ARTISTS? They are written by Christians. Period.
You sound like a bah humbug Scrooge. Uh oh, I better not get you started with Christmas.
Most of all, go to a church where you enjoy worshipping. Good grief man! You know God can't be happy with your attitude. It is painful!

[fyi: peck--Keith Lancaster's father-in-law]

Donnie,
Your perception of Holy entertainment is in your mind..You are entitled
to your opinion..but..Are you an elder? If you are elected as an elder,then have your say in their meetings...Those who are members can express feelings but are not the decision makers..The elders gave the worship leader a job to do..He does it...Before the split..The worship leader had the responsibility of one traditional service early and one traditional service later..He did not get to assemble with the contemporary service in the basement since both were going on at the same time....After so many people assembled in the basement and a fire hazard appeared..Only 2 services were available..instead of 3 services,the worship leader was responsible for a contemporary and a traditional service..not 3 as was previous..His job was to handle each service as his job required....It's not about him.. It's about handling the job that the elders are trying to do in decency and in order...No defense is needed by me..You have first class elders and first class participation in the service..Just submit to church authority ...You are confused but I see in you a change from anger to communicating on a more mature level..No one could be any more childish than I..we're just sinners saved by grace..

Have a blessed day,Peck

Walt..thanks

Is this the Faithsite: Concerned Members extension?

Go away for a few days and things change.

Dr. Max, it’s more like an extended exposure of the “Worship Leader” and his accompanying instruments, the “Praise Team.” So, were you on vacation for a few days?

Since there's already a "ConcernedMembers: FaithSite Extension, because CM folks frequently post over there, how could there ever be a "FaithSite: CM Extension," when so few of the liberal, spiritual mavericks from FaithSite post here?

[ServantForHim is an elder-to-be]

U.B.:
I hope you aren't a big person because if you are then this type of behavior and stress can't be good on your health.

The preachers that spoke to thousands back in the 1800s didn't need one. Jesus didn't need one speaking from the mountain, did He?, and He was outside.

"He doesn't need it if he can be heard, he needs it if he needs to be heard."
Couldn't that apply to the Praise Team. People want to hear the harmony parts of the Praise Team. The microphones enhance that part that the altos, or tenors,etc. need to hear. Some people can't read music, but can hear their parts when sung by someone else.
There ya go U.B.
So then, the Praise Team is NOT performing.
Hey U.B.....why not singing both "Oh I love you God," and "I need thee every hour."

Hey U.B. I will stick to my church. I am not creating a stir by staying there. It seems that you are by staying at Madison. The bad thing too U.B. is that you aren't staying there because you like, but just out of pure spite!

Naw, I was working, so I didn't have much time to be on. I had family visiting, and then my internet was down for 36 hours.

I was at a church of Christ in west Texas where the preacher man told everyone to just hug the person next to you. Talk about made to feel uncomfortable.

I don't hug just anyone, and it needs to be my idea. Stupid. Just plain stupid.

They don't have any organized hugging orgies at Madison, do they?

Whether a soloist, an ensemble group, or a full choir sings a cappella or with instruments, if they do so in a worship service while the rest of the congregation is silent and listening to them, then they are performing. Worship is not about performing. It's the natural tendency for audiences to focus on performers and their talents. When performers are made a part of worship services, audiences by nature focus on them rather than on God. Therefore, it is better to stick with simple, a cappella congregational singing, where no one person or group can possibly be made the center of attention.

After having read a number of posts that v-jo has made at FaithSite, I need to make a short observation. Her responses to conservative Christians are usually defensive and sarcastic, sometimes quite hostile. Studying her phraseology, I envision a person scowling and frowning, maybe even grinding her teeth, as she pounds out negative responses to anything the conservatives have to say. V-jo implies that Untruth Buster objects to lyrics that mention "love," yet I've never noticed any remote trace of "love" in any of her responses to the conservatives. That seems to be a common scenario: Detesting the biblical truths that the conservatives present, the liberals accuse them of not having "love," when in fact the liberals, by their hostile responses, are the ones failing in "love." That indeed is hypocrisy.

Dr. Bill, one Dr. to another, you talking to V-jo about hypocrisy, is like the pot calling the kettle black.

Two spiritual mavericks, Max and v-jo, have both used the insult "pot calls kettle black." That's an old, well-worn, and used-up insult. Come, come, now, I expected more creativity. But I guess after a while, the insults dry up. You can only stomp, scream, and yell, "pot calls kettle black, pot calls kettle black, potcallskettleblack" so many times before it just fizzles out and loses its "zinger-ness." Whatever, vain attempts at insulting me over and over still don't diminish the fact that v-jo has accused the conservatives of lacking love because they preach hard biblical truth, yet she manifests nothing but hostility and anger toward them, the very thing of which she accuses the conservatives. That's called hypocrisy, and Max supports her for it. Quite predictable from two spiritual mavericks. And BTW, that's no attack, its just plain fact.

UB-
Here's your sign... I mean quote:

"There's also a Contemporary, Charismatic "Christian Rock Music" HYMN titled "Clap Your Hands" [not kidding, BTW] that the leader and his Praise Team performs for the congregation. The Team and the willing participants thoroughly enjoy this "love feast" as they sing, "Clap your hands all ye people, shout to God with a voice of triump, clap your hands ... Alleluia, alleluia! Alleluia, alleluiah!"


I can not believe the heretics at Madison would sing this charismatic rock song. What is the church coming to ? It comes from of all places.... PSALM 47!!!!

That's in the Bible. Maybe you've heard of it. It's also commonly referred to as God's Word.

Instrumental music is God's plan. You better start using it!

Dr. Bill Crump,

I am hardly a spiritual Maverick. I am not and have never been part of a Sign Out Front, Church of Christ.

You're my brother, you're my sister,
So take me by the hand
Together we will work until He comes

Hee Haw, a Fraudian Slip Showing! The goal of all MUSICAL religion was defined as SORCERY (Rev 18:22f). The goal, confirmed by The Vinyard Mother, was to reach a sexual-like or literal climax with the spirits. Among the voodoo people who fueled the Stoneite wing of the Restoration Movement, they knew that the spirits would not come without lots of emotion.

Just what KIND of work are you going to do while holding hands? Isn't work a legalistic thing? Music is the most legalistic, superstitious works-intensive rituals ever concocted to AID the gods to keep them from failing to come.

Defining the Abomination which makes DESOLATE (starved for the Word) in the Jerusalem temple and in the end-time church where the musicators CLAIM to bring you into contact with God, Dionysus the New Wineskin God depends on music to bring on a perverted, KNOWING relationship with one another CLAIMING that you were having sex with the "gods" meaning "demons." When God pours out the CUP OF HIS WRATH the word is ORGE or ORGY which is WHAT is happening at Madison and all churches where the musicators replace the preacher: gradually at first but TOTALLY in time. At Madison their stated goal was to turn the church into a THEATER FOR HOLY ENTERTAINMENT. The word is THEATRON meaning MAKING A SPECTACLE OF JESUS CHRIST who as SPIRIT cannot be made to COME.

"And Euripides does likewise, in his Bacchae, citing the Lydian usages at the same time with those of Phrygia, because of their similarity:

But ye who left Mt. Tmolus (Sardis was on this mt.), fortress of Lydia, revel-band of mine, women whom I brought from the land of barbarians as my assistants and travelling companions, uplift the tambourines native to Phrygian cities, inventions of mine and mother Rhea [ZOE].

And again, happy he who, blest man, initiated in the mystic rites, is pure in his life, . . . who, preserving the righteous ORGIES of the great mother Cybele, and brandishing the thyrsus on high, and wreathed with ivy, doth worship Dionysus.

Come, ye Bacchae, come, ye Bacchae, bringing down (double entendre) Bromius, (boisterous one) god the child of god, out of the Phrygian mountains into the broad highways of Greece.

And Rubel Shelly prays: "Come Holy Spirit, come, make us truly new creatures in Christ"

http://www.piney.com/RsHsJn16.html

UBCruz-
What I love about you, is the fact that you are the only human (or troll) on the planet who can sit in an acapella worship service, and accuse them of singing rock music. It's funny. Not "funny", HA HA... "funny", Rain Man.

The best part is when you call it a "Christian Rock Music" HYMN.

Funny.

U.B.:
You just seem very negative, to the point where you seem like you don't enjoy attending the church at Madison. If this is correct, then you should leave.
Your suggestion about the Christian church also applies to you. Since you know so much about singy clappy, contemporary Christian music then maybe that is the place for you. I like the church of Christ that I attend, unlike you where you have an aggressive attitude towards your leaders there at Madison. Again, instead of causing dissension and downcasting, perhaps you should find a more fundamental church that is more low key, and teach the doctrine that you prefer.
Being negative about the leadership and worship style where you currently attend is not spiritually healthy for you U.B. That kind of stress eats away at you physically also.

UB,

I admire your staying power at Madison. "Life is a caberet, ol' chum. Life is a caberet!' LOL!

Myth Buster and Untruth Buster. Are y'all brothers?
Your parents had a thing about naming their kids variations of the word "Lie" didn't they?

Myth-
Read Acts. Tell me what is honrable about Donnie's "staying power" at Madison? After you read Acts, read some of his trash at CM. How long do you think that behavior would have been tolerated by the 1st century apostles and elders?

If he's not happy at Madison, and wants to sit there and be miserable, who cares?

If he wants to get on the internet and publicly humiliate and criticize his elders in the most unbiblical way possible, who cares?

When he starts getting obnoxious, is when he tells everyone to leave thier churches instead of causing trouble. Real admirable Myth.

Amazed, I am NOT surprised that anyone could get BURNED with a DEGREES. Servant, I am not 80 and the depression years were the best years of my life. How many GAMBLERS jumped off tall buildings? Psalm 47 points to the JUDAS PRINCIPLE. Judas was Judas Sicarri: he was an assassin. According to traditions he was a HASHISH MAN who would betray anyone for money. The Judas bag was for "carrying the mouth pieces of wind instruments." Drunk and always pictured as perverted flute players. When he found out that he had failed he did the ONLY honorable thing by hanging himself. I can tell you as a PROPHECY that when the musicating CHURCH STEALERS from widows wake up (too late) to the horrors of their failure WE will have us some mass "blood redemptions."

The history of the great REVIVALS resulted in many suicides. A speculator is stupid but not EVIL: the universal history of using MUSIC to CLAP hands to CAPTURE weak and effemate males is beyond any crime ever perpetuated on humanity. Satan's best WEAPONS are always YOUNG mind-damaged by sound bytes elders and false preachers.

I am amazed that people are old enough to claim to be disciples who can DISHONOR God and His Word and then just to HIT BACK to TRY to SILENCE any oppositon to what John and ALL musical words identify as SORCERY or WITCHCRAFT. You should be DISTINCTLY HONORED because we are told that for ONE WARLOCK there are 10,000 WITCHES to feed your face. I am telling you FLAT OUT that Satan has you by the tail and you CANNOT read a passage of Scripure in context without perverting it.

You have no reason to KNOW this but take it on faith: God turned Israel over to WORSHIP THE STARRY HOST so when you trust David you are involved with Saturn or Chaldee 666. He picked kings to CARRY OUT the captivity and death sentence finally imposed when the elders (wolves = perverts) fired God and demanded a DOMINANT PREACHER (king). He PROMISED them in Scripture--which you have no reason to have heard about--exactly what He was going to do and the Warrior Chariot Musicians was a CURSE. Sure, God loved David so instead of destroying the WHOLE NATION he quarantined DAVID at a pagan Jebusite High Place called Jerusalem and Sodom.

You could never have heard--and retained--the fact that the Levitical Warrior Musicians were under the KING and COMMANDERS OF THE ARMY. The civil-military-clergy sacrificial system had NOTHING to do with the people who SYNAGOGUED and any nit wit would have known NOT to blow the trumpet or sing when the WORD of God was being read or recited.

(To the chief Musician, A Psalm for the sons of Korah.)

O clap your hands, all ye people; shout unto God with the voice of triumph. Psa 47:1

Clapping IS an instrumental panic sound--the Startle Reflex USED by ABUSERS:

Taqa (h8628) taw-kah'; a prim. root; to clatter, i. e. slap (the hands together), clang (an instrument); by anal. to drive (a nail or TENT-PEG, a dart, etc.); by impl. to become BONDSMAN (by hand-clasping): - blow ([a trumpet]), cast, clap, fasten, pitch [tent], smite, sound, strike, * suretiship, thrust.

When the musicator makes you MOVE TOGETHER (Hee Haw) he is BONDING you to himself and FORCING you to march LOCK STEP and GOOSE STEP -- I call it GOOSE CLAPPING . When the CHURCH IN THE WILDERNESS was called into assembly it was only for hearing instructions. Therefore, the ALARM or TRIUMPH OVER was outlawed: that outlaws hand clapping as if any nitwit would need a LAW forbidding it when Jesus meets as oue ONLY Master Teacher.

Num 10:7 But when the congregation is to be gathered together, ye shall blow, but ye shall not sound an alarm.

This word has the same meaning as the HAND CLAPPING to make you "move together" (Hee Haw).

H7321 rua roo-ah' A primitive root; to mar (especially by breaking); figuratively to split the ears (with sound), that is, shout (for alarm or joy): blow an alarm, cry (alarm, aloud, out), destroy, make a joyful noise, smart, shout (for joy), sound an alarm, triumph.

The CLAPP word is used to define how a woman BETRAYS and MURDERS a man she had given shelter too. No, dumbo, that is NOT an approved example just as the CLAPPING is not an approved example.

And Ehud put forth his left hand, and took the DAGGAR from his right thigh, and THRUST it into his belly: Jud.3:21

And Jael went out to meet Sisera, and said unto him, Turn in, my lord, turn in to me; fear not. And when he had turned in unto her into the tent, she covered him with a mantle. Jud.4:18


And he said unto her, Give me, I pray thee, a little water to drink; for I am thirsty. And she opened a bottle of milk, and gave him drink, and covered him. Jud 4:19


Again he said unto her, Stand in the door of the tent, and it shall be, when any man doth come and enquire of thee, and say, Is there any man here? that thou shalt say, No. Jud 4:20


Then Jael Hebers wife took a nail of the tent, and took an hammer in her hand, and went softly unto him, and SMOTE the nail into his temples, and fastened it into the ground: for he was fast asleep and weary. So he died. Jud 4:21

I don't see how anyone could CLAIM or even want to be a disciple and try to SMASH the Words of Jesus Christ (Spirit and Life) by trying to belittle their betters.

You, dear CLAPPER, are a wife BETRAYING people and AFFLICTING them just as God prophesied of the SORCERS in Revelation 18. This is the SAME bad WALL STREET: when WE get the world wised up, YOU are going to discover that you have been STEALING from widows and doing the JUDAS ASSASIN or CLAPPING or THRUSTING a daggar into the belly of widows. Isn't it WONDERFUL that Satan made sure that you would never try that on REAL MALES or RATIONAL (Spiritual) women but pick on the WEAK. I think this may be God's final GENERIC ENGINEERING.

Don't kiss it off as the product of an OLD mind: older people learned things BEFORE your were born and stay WAY AHEAD of you on anything that has happened since. That is just PROOF that you are a changeling-lostling and in The Book of Enoch you are doing just what you are supposed to do knowing that you have fallen and will never get back up.

Why are several of the posts from the same IP? 70.156.25.18

===========================
What stinks? The IP address? or several of the posts?

Did you read the statement that explains the source of the "online" conversation?

Myth-
Nice dodge. Now, try answering what I asked you.

Untruth-
I don't doubt that when the leaders at Madison made changes it caused a lot of problems. I wasn't there, so I don't know, or care to know, the details. I don't know or care to know who was right or wrong.

What I am saying is this. The changes are made. It is a fully functioning church with elders. If they are wrong, they will answer to God and Him alone. YOUR choice is to follow them or leave. I honestly don't care either way.

What bothers me is your atrocious criticism here and CM of the church and it's leadership. Then, your continuous calls for people to leave their churches instead of causing trouble.

If you can not see the hypocrisy in that, we are done discussing it.

John Calvin informs us that "there is no statute of limitations on Heresy." Nor, do the elders have ANY command authority and they are--if APT--to be the ONLY pastor-teachers of the EKKLESIA or school of the Bible. In NUMEROUS Biblical and historical churches that meant to READ and DIALOG a portion of Scripture each week. The goal of TEACHING the Biblical text only was to LEARN something and not feel like you have been to the local topless bar with MALES performing the roles UNIQUELY reserved in cities like Corinth for prostitutes or perverted males. Their DIRECT COMMAND is to "teach that which has been taught." They have no authority to add:

The ACT of preaching: that heresy didn't arrive for hundreds of years
The ACT of singing: that heresy arrived about 400 years too late"
The ACT of "laying by in store." THAT IS A RECENT LAW.

Jesus died to OUTLAW those adding spiritual anxiety like DEBT and mind-altering, sexual-stimulating RITUALS specificially outlawed by the word REST.

Beyond that, the elders and the AUDIENCE are partners and NO one should be THREATENED PSYCHOLOGICALLY by saying they should LEAVE. The TROUBLE MAKERS should leave. COVERING UP a sin is just as vile as COMMITTING the sin of turning "school of the Bible" into a CRACK HOUSE where the CRACK is "endorphins" induced by the AROUSAL displays.

Elders are normally BUDDY SELECTED and if they have no sense of morality or KNOWLEDGE of the meaning of APT TO TEACH then they have NO SPIRITUAL AUTHORITY. OBEY means to "listen to and heed what they TEACH (defined as INSPIRED TEXT) and to "watch the outcome of their lives."

From Iamblicus defining the EGYPTIAN rituals enacted by Israel when the ROSE UP TO PLAY. For that God abandoned them to this IDOLATRY and what you see under the KINGS in defined below. Why would ELDERS (unless WOLVES) turn the church over to what Paul warned AGAINST. TIME does not make a CRIME into WORSHIP.

"In addition to these things you remark as follows: "So also certain others of these ecstatic become entheast or inspired when they hear cymbals, drums, or some choral chant, 21 as, for example, those who are engaged in the Korybantic Rites, 22 those who are possessed at the Sabazian festival and those who are celebrating the Rites of the Divine Mother." [ZOE] 23 [Sabazianism was the worship of the STARRY HOST to which God abandoned the Isralites]

Note 21. Some exhibition of this kind is described by the Apostle Paul in the first Epistle to the Corinthians. "If," says he, "the whole assembly come together to the same place and all prattle in tongues, and common men should come in, or unbelievers, will they not say that you are raving?" [Paul equated that to MUSIC]

Hence he counsels that only two or three should speak in turn, and one interpret; but if nobody present is capable of this, they should keep silence, and speak only to themselves and to God:


"for not of tumult is he a god, but of tranquility." (Ovid; Fasti IV,

"The attendants beat the brass, and the hoarse-sounding hides. Cymbals they strike in place of helmets, tambourines for the shields; the pipe yielded its Phrygian notes.")

There is evidently a deeper meaning in all this than is commonly apprehended.

Note 22. The Korybantes are variously described. Their cult was identified or closely allied to that of the Kabeirian [homosexual] divinities, and that of the Great Mother.[ZOE] It was celebrated in the islands of the Aegean Sea and in Phygia. Music, dancing, processions, and ecstatic frenzy were characteristics.

Note 23 Sabazios, Sabaoth, or Sabbat, the god of the Planet Saturn [Chaldeee 666], was better known as Bacchus or Dionysos, and was also styled in Semitic countries, Iao or Yava. His worship was more or less associated and identified with that of the Great Mother, under various designations, and it was characterized by phallephoric [carrying the penis like MICROPHONES] processions, dances, mourning for the slain divinity, and the Watch Night. It came from Assyria as its peculiar symbols, the ivy or kissos, the spotted robe or Nimr [Nimrod], and the Thyrso, indicate.

The name Zagreus the Kissos and nimr remind us of Kissaia or Asiatic Ethiopia, and the Zagros mountains occupied by the Nimr. Assyria was called "the land of Nimrod." -Amos VIII.

IVY is the mark of the TRINITY.

http://www.piney.com/His223.html

It is proper, accordingly, to tell the causes of these things, how they came into existence, and what explanation there is for the performing of the Rites.

These allusions which you make, namely, that the music at these festivals is exciting and passionate; [OUTLAWED BY PAUL]

that the sound of the flutes [vocal bands] CAUSES or heals conditions of aberration; A
that the music changes the temperaments or dispositions of the body;

that by some of the choral songs the Bacchic frenzy is excited,
but by others the Bacchic orgies are made to cease;

26. With the Korghantians, this represented a guard about the Demiurgos or Creator; with the Kuretes, it denoted a protecting of the divine maid Kora.

Note; 26. Servius remarks that the Sacred observances of Father Liber, the Roman Bacchus, related to the purification of souls. This cleansing, as here declared, was considered to be [Original Sin] not only from contamination acquired by coming into the conditions of physical existence, but also from guilt actually incurred.

Thou seemest to think that those who are enrapt by the Mother of the gods are males, for thou callest them, accordingly, "Metrizontes";

yet that is not true, for the "Metrizontesæ" are chiefly women.
A very FEW, however, are MALES, and such as may be more DELICATE. [Malakos meaning SOFT: the Catamites] [Paul warned that OUTSIDE the spirit THERE BE DOGS]

This enthusiasm has a power that is both life-engendering and perfective, in which respect it differs from every other form of frenzy.

Proceeding thus, after this way, into what remains of the present discussion, and distinguishing particularly the inspirations of the Nymphs or of Pan,

The word ORGE is PROOF that God is pouring out His WRATH where the MARKS are the singers and musicians UNDER the Mother Whore and John called them SORCERERS.

You don't GET PREFERENCES in the ASSEMBLY: Paul excluded those in Romans 14 so you could focus on the WORD in the ekklesia while OUTLAWING the SELF PLEASURING connected to the creation of MENTAL EXCITEMENT.

CULTURE never gives one permission to HURT OTHERS to turn church into an EFFEMINATE and EFFEMINIZING entertainment center.

The elder was in the FRONT LINE leading the troups into battle. Or they were on the front line fighting of the WOLVES (perverts) wanting to eat up the lambs. They have NO command authority because Jesus was SHEPHERD and not demagogue.

Their authority DEMANDS that they "call the assembly and keep order." When the assembly dismisses they have NO authority to hire STAND OVERS as insincere preachers or musicians which are defined by the same word as PROSTITUTES: selling the Free Word at retail or selling THEIR OWN compositions and THIS defines the Scribe, Pharisee and HYPOCRITE (performer)

"We have frequently used the term 'officers' with reference to the servants of the church. We have frequently affirmed that in the ordinary use of that term an 'officer' is unknown to the Christian scriptures...An officer in the ordinary acceptation of the term is one who is appointed to do a work, which he could NOT do without that appointment and to which, without the official investiture, would be a crime...can an overseer consecrated as as he may be...do anything as such that every Christian is not at liberty, and even is duty bound to do to the best of his ability" (David Lipscomb, The Gospel Advocate, 1867, p. 567)

"Controlling the church by virtue of authority of office is unknown in the Scriptures. All should seek to control simply and only through the authority of truth, impressed by lives of godliness, purity and love." (Lipscomb in The Gospel Advocate, 1871)

"Hence elders and deacons, whatever may be meant by these words, can do nothing by what is called official authority into whch they are to be installed by something called ordination. Whatever is done by them must be done by the WORD of God, and not by any official authority to them." (Gospel Advocate, 1898, p. 280).

"No man, therefore, has any arbitrary or official authority in the church of God...The word of God, not their personal decisions by their own wisdom, must be the rule, the law, in all things pertaining to the service of God." (E.G. Sewell, GA, 1897, p. 292)

The LIVING WORD cast out the Musical Minstrels LIKE DUNG. The written Word ALWAYS connects Music to children (female only please), to Satan, to warriors, to sacrificial exorcists, to prostitutes and Sodomites.

Here is how you preach in the synagogue

For Moses of old time hath in every city them
that preach him,
being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. Ac.15:21

That is what Paul commanded Timothy and there is NEVER any singing in the SYNAGOGUE of Paul on mission or by Timothy: they would CAST HIM OUT as a pervert.

Till I come, give attendance to (public) reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. 1 Tim 4:13

Here is how the Elders Rule

Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. 1 Tim 5:17

The ELDER is due an HONORARIUM or voluntary gifts IF he is already "laboring to the point of exhaustion in preaching and teaching." (Word and Doctrine.)

That is the PATTERN established by Jesus, commanded by Paul and practiced by ALL faithful churches.

Madison is NOT an ekklesia and it HAS NO QUALIFIED ELDERS or they would not have USURPED authority in the same way WOMEN were forbidden: that is AUTHENTIA which is both EROTIC and MURDEROUS.

Eat, drink and make Mary, but you ARE NOT REMOTELY a kissing cousin to a faithful church and the elders are WOLVES.

"I do not like saying this -- but you need to really stop your silly defense of your son-in-law, Keith Lancaster, Madison's self-designated "Worship Leader" who, along with his "Praise Team," caused the havoc in 2001."


Donnie, why do you repeatedly lie about this? Keith was not ever a "self-appointed worship leader". Not only is it a lie, it would never have been allowed to happen if he or anyone else had tried to be self-appointed about anything. But he didn't.

So, again I ask, why do you continue to repeatedly tell this lie? There is no way around it, Donnie. It is a flat-out lie.

v-jo,

If you're speaking of a professional job in a religious setting, you would be correct. There are many talented men at Madison who can do "the service for the Master" free-of-charge. This "God's servant" has his own musical "a cappella" organization in the name of "religious" [OK, OK, OK--it's a religious business], but yet is being paid big buck$ to wag his arms and have his Praise Team sing to and for the congregation. The big buck$ are mis-spent. The funds could be used for more evangelism and benevolence.

If you're speaking of his arrogance, yes, he is a self-designated "Musical Worship Leader" who SINCERELY believes that he is leading congregants into God's holy presence.

U.B.

Sorry, Donnie, "arrogant" is not a word I would use to describe Keith.

Keith has been gifted by God, and he uses that gift for God's glory. He's being paid so that he can focus time and energy on his ministry. Sorry, but I don't think his bucks are out of line for a large congregation in a large city with multiple full-time paid staff.

I've seen plenty of worship/song leaders in my lifetime. Keith is one of the best. Maybe even THE best.


May I remind you of these thoughts:

Eph 4:31 - Get rid of all bitterness, rage, anger, harsh words, and slander, as well as all types of malicious behavior. 32 Instead, be kind to each other, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God through Christ has forgiven you.

************

Have you forgotten that he is your brother?

Hi everyone,
Just a one time post to let you all know that I have no respect for this website..I believe it to be an embarressment to the body of Christ..so,I don't post here..

However,I do respect Donnie and Ken and Dr and Jimmy..They are my dear brothers and as much as I need grace..I give them mine as best I can...

It's not my place to speak for Madison since I live 3 hours away..But during the split,I was in Nashville on Sundays(I forget now why)..and I witnessed with my own eyes the transformation...

This topic was preceded by what I determined as slander on the elders and worship leader in a different website(so I confronted him) and Donnie had the poor taste of putting it over here without permission..Sure,it's legal but bad manners in my opinion..

It seems that Ken can say anything about authority and get away with it here...I'm old and still have it in my head to honor and respect eldership wherever it is...but it's not my place to control Donnie's actions..Only as a fellow christian do I plead with him to stop this agenda against the body of Christ..It's ugly..Mutual respect and tolerance should reign..not this website...

Worship style is a choice and each of us can select our place and time to worship...

Blessings to each of you...Peck

Donnie - Whatever, Donnie. Knock yourself out. Your slander of Lancaster is on the web for the entire world to see.

Go back and read 1 Cor. 6:10 again. While you've got your Bible out, read the book of James. It seems you missed that one.

And 1 Cor 11. How can you share at Jesus' Table every Sunday morning with Keith while carrying this blatant hatred in your heart? "Whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and the blood of the Lord." And from Jesus: "...leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother..."

Time is running out.

v-jo,

Look at the exodus en masse. Caused by one man and his musicians. It's what he did. (You know, when Nick Boone was dismissed as a song leader and the elders were looking for a replacement ... guess what? I inwardly voted for this brother to be the one to lead singing.) But since the takeover of the second assembly, nothing has been the same. He is still the problem ... like or not.

I see. You feel bad for one Christ-sibling, but not for the hundreds that fled. Yeah ... right!

Donnie

Keep on skipping significant points. The BIG buck$$$$ -- the saints' collection could be much better used in evangelism and benevolence.

I get it. If someone is doing something that I don't agree with, they must have sinister motives for doing it. Like greed or spiritual pride or lust. They don't agree with me, so they must have dirty minds.

Jimmy,

There are some people that preach just for the money, too. They take their money from the offering. Why should we pay them?

Isn't it about time for Brian to perseverate with "Psalm 150"?

peck, I have never heard this before. You wrote: "When I said Celestial being...I meant God..Jude tells us that we sometimes slander celestal beings ....God is the one who authorized elders and church leaders to lead his body...and when you slander them..You slander God..."

Could you be specific and provide the source this came from?

In christ,
Jimmy

Donnie,
I think we are both just immature christians..I realize that even as old as I am,that growing up in the Lord is always a distance off...

Maybe,it's not what is going on in an assembly of the saints that's upsetting to either of us..but rather,maybe it's what's going on inside us...Power gained by slander is unearned power..Power gained by putting you down is unearned power...My attempt to reason with you has not been successful and I just would like to call you brother and ease off...

God bless,Peck

The best way to honor the godly elders is to feed information about the MARK of music. Most of this has been blurred in the the Rabinnic Universities now turning out actors and musicians to be MEDIATORS in song and sermon. I would love to hear from someone with the PLEDGE of confidentiality.

As we write the eternal battle against the CAINITES or Kenites who ruled in Jerusalem until recently is going on in the SAME PLACE the original battle took place. There it is literally: in many once upon a time churches (schools of the Bible) it is taking place with the same Cainites (from a musical mark) who HAVE seduced faithful people away from the WORD as it has been taught and they USE the same kind of MUSIC Satan through the fallen angels and the YOUTH using "mixed sex choirs, instruments (real or organic), seductive appearance (the authential or female sexual authority and whatever you may find in a FALLEN church. Azazel is the fallen angel Israel sacrificed the Scape Goat to after God turned them over to worship the Starry Hosts pointed to in the BEGINNING and the ENDING of the Bible.

In Acts 20 Paul warned about ELDERS who are WOLVES and not SHEPHERD. The wolf is the universal message of sexual perverts to TAKE the flock and USE them. The definition of a DEMAGOGUE is one who "uses popular arts to appeas the crowd" and he USES them defined by the word KLEPTOMAI.

Lucifer in the garden is seen as "bisexual" who DECEIVED or wholly seduced Eve but took Adam easily. Jude points to the same people who USE people for their own LUSTS and PROFIT by pointing to The Book of Enoch. This book is quoted at least 128 times throughout the New Testament and was once in the canon because it defines the JUBAL family. Jubal gave his name to JUBILEE.

"In pagan traditions, musical instruments are invented by gods or demi-gods, such as titans. In the Bible, credit is assigned to antediluvian patriarchs, for example, the descendants of Cain in Genesis 4:21. There is no other biblical tradition about the invention of musical instruments." (Freedman, David Noel, Bible Review, Summer 1985, p. 51).

The clear message in the Bible

And his brothers name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ. Gen 4:21

Handle means:

Taphas (h8610) taw-fas'; a prim. root; to manipulate, i. e. seize; chiefly to capture, wield; spec. to overlay; fig. to use unwarrantably: - catch, handle, (lay, take) hold (on, over), stop, * surely, surprise, take.

Taphaph (h8608) taw-faf'; a prim. root; to drum, i. e. play (as) on the tambourine: - taber, play with timbrels.

Topheth (h8612) to'-feth; the same as 8611; Topheth, a place near Jerus.: - Tophet, Topheth.

Topheth is God's IMAGE of Hell itself: it was king Solomon's MUSIC GROVE where they eventially began burning babies (the Canaan land messag) to Molech. The used loud singing and beat on drums (hand clapping means to HISS or BOO and to VOMIT.

Isaiah 30 clearly says that HELL was specificially prepared for Satan, his fallen angels and those who get seduced by ANY kind of "music."

First, Jude begins with the Biblical principle of the ONLY Authority:

Jude 3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Jude 13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Jude 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Jude 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Jude 16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having mens persons in admiration because of advantage.

Jude 17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Jude 18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

They PIPED as children trying to get Jesus to sing and dance!

Jude 19 These be they who separate (g592 repudiate and form a sect or party) themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

The Book of Enoch and similar writings, and defined in the Bible, says that Satan used the youth to SEDUCE people away from the Living Word. They used mixed-sex choirs, instruments (mouth bands means the same thing) and sexual attractiveness to seduce people through LUST of the flesh and LUST of the ears. There is NO OTHER MESSAGE. It is repeated FOR US in Revelation 17-18.

Enoch 7:1 It happened after the sons of men had multiplied in those days, that daughters were born to them, elegant and beautiful.

Enoch 7: 2 And when the angels, (3) the sons of heaven, beheld them, they became enamoured of them, saying to each other, Come, let us select for ourselves wives from the progeny of men, and let us beget children.

(3) An Aramaic text reads "Watchers" here (J.T. Milik, Aramaic Fragments of Qumran Cave 4 [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1976], p. 167).

Enoch 7: 3 Then their leader Samyaza said to them; I fear that you may perhaps be indisposed to the performance of this enterprise;

Enoch 7: 4 And that I alone shall suffer for so grievous a crime.

Enoch 7: 5 But they answered him and said; We all swear;

Enoch 7: 6 And bind ourselves by mutual execrations, that we will not change our intention, but execute our projected undertaking.

Enoch 7: 7 Then they swore all together, and all bound themselves by mutual execrations. Their whole number was two hundred, who descended upon Ardis, (4) which is the top of mount Armon. (Hermon)

(4) Upon Ardis. Or, "in the days of Jared" (R.H. Charles, ed. and trans., The Book of Enoch [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1893], p. 63).

Enoch 7: 8 That mountain therefore was called Armon, because they had sworn upon it,(5) and bound themselves by mutual execrations.

(5) Mt. Armon, or Mt. Hermon, derives its name from the Hebrew word herem, a curse (Charles, p. 63).

Charam (h2763) khaw-ram'; a prim. root; to seclude; spec. (by a ban) to devote to religious uses (espec. destruction); phys. and reflex. to be blunt as to the nose: - make accursed, consecrate, (utterly) destroy, devote, forfeit, have a flat nose, utterly (slay, make away).

Enoch 7: 10 Then they took wives, each choosing for himself; whom they began to approach, and with whom they cohabited; teaching them sorcery, incantations, and the dividing of roots and trees.

Enoch 7: 11 And the women conceiving brought forth giants, (7)

(7) The Greek texts vary considerably from the Ethiopic text here. One Greek manuscript adds to this section, "And they [the women] bore to them [the Watchers] three races: first, the great giants. The giants brought forth [some say "slew"] the Naphelim, and the Naphelim brought forth [or "slew"] the Elioud. And they existed, increasing in power according to their greatness."

Enoch 8:1 Moreover Azazyel taught men to make swords, knives, shields, breastplates, the fabrication of mirrors, and the workmanship of bracelets and ornaments, the use of paint, the beautifying of the eyebrows, the use of stones of every valuable and select kind, and all sorts of dyes, so that the world became altered.

Enoch 8:2 colouring tinctures. And there arose much godlessness, and they committed fornication, and they

Enoch 8:3 were led astray, and became corrupt in all their ways. Semjaza taught enchantments, and root-cuttings, 'Armaros the resolving of enchantments [music], Baraqijal (taught) astrology, Kokabel the constellations, Ezeqeel the knowledge of the clouds, Araqiel the signs of the earth, Shamsiel the signs of the sun, and Sariel the course of the moon. And as men perished, they cried, and their cry went up to heaven.

God came with a FIREY LAW to execute judgment against Israel when they fell into the Musical Idolatry of the Egyptian Trinity. They LOST the Covenant of Grace and were placed under Kings specificially to CARRY OUT the captivity and death sentence. When they USE the Gentile-like Monarchy they are clearly working against God.

untruth- (most appropriately named poster of 2006 award-winner)

When you fell out of the stupid tree, you must have hit every branch on your way down. Do you know where there is a church that exactly resembles a first century church?
Nowhere.
You know why? Because no one would go to it. Churches have to CHANGE Donnie. You don't want a first century church, you want a 1950's church. The number of those like you are thankfully getting smaller... and smaller.... and smaller.....AHHHHHHH, you're melting!!!!!!

By the way, a mature Christian, even a mature person, Christian or not, does not use the word "thingy". Not straight ones at least.

The "1950s church" is a trademark defense label coined by the change agents ... whatever that signifies.

No, Amazed, the thousands of congregations are not melting. That's only your sad hope that they will. Maybe, it is your deceived mind melting! I can tell. Besides, as you claim, your family ... your parents and other members are still in the church that, only in your own mind, is melting.

Churches "have to" change? No way ... only a few congregations with liberal-minded elders have implemented instrumental music in the assembly. Just look at wave runner's Oak Hills congregation -- an example of the notion that "churches have to change."

U.B.

Donnie,

Say hi to Ward and June Cleaver next time you see them. I hope she's still wearing those white gloves.

Rick

Maybe, I was born, not a generation or two ago, but several centuries ago. I'll say "hi" to the Cleavers, nonetheless.

The church is a living, bearthing entity, not an inanimate object.

Change is a sign of life.

No change is a sign that rigor mortis has set in.

So, is the truth, God's Word. It is living, indeed! But it is not changing. God's truth is not changing. Neither is the bride of Christ, His church. There is not a sign that "rigor mortis" has [or should] set in -- either in the truth or in God's kingdom.

amazed writes: "...you (UB) said: "I've never rejected authority in accordance with the Scriptures. You're certainly confused about plain authority versus authority that is God-directed."

Liar.

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you"

*****************

Jimmy replies: elders="men who must give an account." Another way we could state this would be "as accountable men."

All that Donnie is trying to do is get the elders to be accountable to the membership that they were selected to serve and there is a membership side to accountability.

Anyone who believes that the elders are not accountable to the Christian individuals that they serve is confused as to what being a leader is all about.

In Christ,
Jimmy

Donnie does not mean "accountable" in the same sense Scripture means it.

"All that Donnie is trying to do is get the elders to be accountable to the membership that they were selected to serve and there is a membership side to accountability."

They have been. What Donnie wants is to control the leadership. Not make them accountable to the congregation, because they already are. Not to obey the leadership, as Scripture instructs (he forget the verse part of that verse - obey so their work will be a joy). Big difference in what Donnie wants and what Scripture says.

v-jo. you are wrong. The leadership of 2000 imploded! That leadership refused to be accountable to the congregation and the results of that can be read at CM.

How many elders stopped eldering at Madison? How many deacons stopped deaconing at Madison? What happened to the other song leaders at Madison? Where is Ray Walker? Where is Nick Boone?

You and peck and others are not defending the church and truth there, you are defending the results, i.e. the church that has emerged from the ungodly actions of the elders that bought about an unwelcome change.

In Christ,
Jimmy

As Anti-Christian and Anti- the church and Anti-RESTJesus died to give us to liberate us FROM the musical anxiety creators, DEFENDING it and Demonizing those who oppose the HOSTILE TAKEOVER to, as confessed, change the church into a THEATER FOR HOLY ENTERTAINMENT, is as evil and wicked as one can get. The GUILT CLAUSE has always been pulled out by the ANTI-Christians to blame the victim being shot by the SECTARIAN for squirting blood on his/her dancing slippers.

So, don't try the old SLICK SLUG trick and lead silly women astray with you. Madison is NOT an ekklesia or synagogue of Christ but a PAGAN WORSHIP CENTER or all known Biblical and secular history has no meaning. I know that Peck is pretty good at denying plain facts.

Peck, you are complicit when you accuse those DELIBERATELY DISCORDED with the discord the hireling-changlings BOAST that they have to do before they can BREAK DOWN all resistance. So, don't expect Ken Sublett to be PUT OFF by the well agreed upon effort to shift the blame.

The sounding brass was, in effect, a Pipe Organ which reproduced certain pitches of speech or music. The "wind" of the speaker "blew" across the theater into the "pipe" with the same effect of a modern instrument.

1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

For the literate Paul points to all forms of musical "religion" as pagan. EVEN if you could do all of those things and had no love it would have no value. Paul DOES NOT commend any of them.

Remember: We finally gotta tell 'em that we gonna make this church a THEATER FOR HOLY ENTERTAINMEN. Fine, Just in time to fulfill prophecy. I have been waiting for GOD'S spectacle!

THEATRUM

The acoustic properties of a Greek theatre would be naturally good, since the actors had a high wall behind them and a rising slope in front. Vitruvius, indeed, says that artificial aid was sought from brazen vessels, which the Greeks call êcheia, so placed in the auditorium as to reverberate the voices of the actors. He even speaks of these resonators as being nicely adapted to the required musical pitch (ii. 1, 9). The theatre at Aizani in Cilicia has a series of niches above the diazôma: and similar niches exist elsewhere. According to one view, these niches held the êcheia, while another connects them merely with the substructions of seats. The statement of Vitruvius leaves no doubt that êcheia were used, at least sometimes, in the theatres of his own day: but it remains uncertain whether such a device was employed by the Greeks of an earlier time.

Echeion, to, ( [êchos] ) drum, gong, Plu.Crass.23, Apollod. ap. Sch. Theoc.2.36, Procop.Gaz.Ecphr.p.153B.; tambourine, as head-dress, Herm.Trism.in Rev.Phil.32.254; used for stage-thunder, Sch.Ar. Nu.292; as sounding-boards in the theatre, Vitr.5.5.2.

II. in the lyre, = chalkôma, apptly. a metallic sounding-plate, Hsch.; so of the palate, Gal.UP7.5.

2. Adj. êcheion organon sounding instrument, Ph.1.588, cj.ib.444,510.

Organon, 3. musical instrument, Simon.31, f.l. in A.Fr.57.1 ; ho men di' organôn ekêlei anthrôpous, of Marsyas, Pl.Smp.215c ; aneu organôn psilois logois ibid., cf. Plt.268b ; o. poluchorda Id.R.399c , al.; met' ôidês kai tinôn organôn Phld.Mus.p.98K. ; of the pipe, Melanipp.2, Telest.1.2.

Echetês , ou, ho, Ep. êcheta^ , Dor. achetas , acheta, ( [êcheô] )

A. clear-sounding, musical, shrill, donax achetas A.Pr.575 (lyr.); kuknos E.El.151 (lyr.); epith. of the cicada, chirping, êcheta tettix Hes. Op.582 , AP 7.201 (Pamphil.); achetat. ib.213 (Arch.): abs., achetas, ho, the chirper, i.e. the male cicada, Anan.5.6, Ar.Pax1159 (lyr.), Av.1095 (lyr.), cf. Arist.HA532b16,556a20: Orph.A.1250 has Ep.acc. êcheta porthmon the sounding strait.

Donax n1 n2 n3 [from doneô, "a reed shaken by the wind," cf. rhips from rhiptô]

Luke 7:24 And when the messengers of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind?

don-eô, A. shake, of the effects of the wind, to de te pnoiai doneousin they shake the young tree kardian to agitate one's mind, hêmas edonêsen hê mousikê, II. of sound, murmur, buzz, of bees, prob. in h.Merc.563; d. throon humnôn rouse the voice of song, Pi.N.7.81:--also in Med. or Pass., luran te boai kanachai t' aulôn doneontai Id.P.10.39 ; of bees, Choeril.2; rhoizêmasin aithêr doneitai Ar.Av.1183 .--Poet. word, used in Ion., X.Smp.2.8, and late Prose; of medical percussion, Aret.SD2.1

"Yobal (Jubal). (Note: Jubilee or "a blast of trumpets" is from Jubal which means "to lead with triumph or pomp.") and Tobalkin (Tubal-Cain), the two brethren, the sons of Lamech, the blind man, who killed Cain, invented and made all kinds of instruments (or metal weapons) of music.

Hippolytus V

"Yobal made reed instruments, and harps, and flutes, and whistles, and the devils went and dwelt inside them.When men blew into the pipes, the devils sang inside them,

And Satan had been made ruler (or prince) of that camp Fol. 12b, col. 2. And when the men and women were

stirred up to lascivious frenzy by the devilish playing of the reeds which emitted musical sounds, and by the harps which the men played through the operation of the power of the devils , and by the sounds of the tambourines and of the sistra which were beaten and rattled through the agency of evil spirits, the sounds of their laughter were heard in the air above them, and ascended to that holy mountain.

But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft (clothes of a Catamite=male prostitute) raiment? Behold, they which are gorgeously apparelled, and live delicately (effeminate), are in kings courts. Luke 7:25

They expected that the "prophesiers" would be male prostitutes who would help you locate a goat or serve your needs. Jesus identifies the HYPOCRITES by point to Isaiah and Ezekiel 33 to point directly to the "love" songs and well played instruments.

Luke 7:26 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, and much more than a prophet.

Pi.N.7.81 Pindar, Nemean Odes 7

[9] For he lives in a city that loves music, the city of the Aeacidae with their clashing spears; [10] and they very much want to foster a spirit familiar with contests. If someone is successful in his deeds, he casts a cause for sweet thoughts into the streams of the Muses. For those great acts of prowess dwell in deep darkness, if they lack songs, and we know of only one way to hold a mirror up to fine deeds

[15] if, by the grace of Mnemosyne with her splendid headdress, one finds a recompense for toils in glorious song. [17] Skillful men know the wind that will come on the day after tomorrow, and they do not suffer loss through the love of gain. The rich man and the poor man alike travel together to the boundary of death. [20] And I expect that the story of Odysseus came to exceed his experiences, through the sweet songs of Homer, [22] since there is a certain solemnity in his lies and winged artfulness, and poetic skill deceives, seducing us with stories, and the heart of the mass of men is blind.

Strike up the song! The Muse welds together gold and white ivory with coral, the lily she has stolen from beneath the ocean's dew. [80] But in remembrance of Zeus and in honor of Nemea, whirl a far-famed strain of song, softly. On this spot it is fitting to sing with a gentle voice of the king of gods.

To plough the same ground three or four times [105] is poverty of thought, like babbling "Corinth of Zeus" to children.

Id.P.10.39 Pindar.Neaman 10. [31] Once Perseus, the leader of his people, entered their homes and feasted among them, when he found them sacrificing glorious hecatombs of donkeys to the god. In the festivities of those people [35] and in their praises Apollo rejoices most, and he laughs when he sees the erect arrogance of the beasts. [37] The Muse is not absent from their customs; all around swirl the dances of girls, the lyres loud chords and the cries of flutes. [40] They wreathe their hair with golden laurel branches and revel joyfully.

HERE IS WHERE THE SINGERS VIOLATE THE DIRECT COMMAND OF PAUL TO CONSIDER THE INFIRM WHO ARE MOST AFFLICTED WITH MUSICAL SOUNDS WHICH AROUSE ANXIETY

No sickness or ruinous old age is mixed into that sacred race; without toil or battles [43] they live without fear of strict Nemesis.

The Muses work for Apollo, Abaddon or Apollyon. The Muses are identified as the LOCUSTS who werel to be unleashed by Apollo the "having fallen star."

Tettix cicala, Cicada plebeia or allied species, a winged insect fond of basking on trees, when the male makes a chirping or clicking noise by means of certain drums or 'tymbals' underneath the wings, a prov. for garrulity,

Plato calls them hoi Mousôn prophêtai,

Musical prophesying is defined by John in Revelation as SORCERERS.

Usually used with:

Aeidô [compare the morphological problems with aeirô]
I. to sing, Il., etc.:--then of any sound, to twang, of the bowstring, Od.; to whistle, of the wind, Mosch.; to ring, of a stone struck, Theocr.
II. trans.,
1. c. acc. rei, to sing, chant, mênin, paiêona, klea andrôn Hom.:--absol., aeidein amphi tinos to sing in one's praise, Od.:--Pass., of songs, to be sung, Hdt.; aisma kalôs aisthen Xen.
2. c. acc. pers. to sing, praise, attic

These are the LOCUSTS or musical performers under Apollo who is the Apollyon or Abaddon of John. In Revelation 17 they SERVE the Babylon Harlot and the singers and musicians in Revelation 18:22 are called SORCERERS by which they deceived the world.

Sounding brass intends to DECEIVE and overpower the paying audience.

That is why when Moses heard idolaltry at Mount Sinai he said: "It is SINGING that I heard." Paul put the SPEAK or SAY in the human spirit and said nothing about external MUSIC.

APOLLYON is the HAVING FALLEN STAR and the Musical Ministers are the MUSES or musical prophesiers John identified them as under the Babylon Harlot performing SORCERY. ALL singing and musical terms in the Greek text are defined as ENCHANTMENT or SORCERY.

And that, enemy of the Word, is why you CANNOT ever repent if we believe the Biblical and other testimony about music being the MARK or the STING of the Scorpion tales of the Locust or musical agents of Satan.

THOSE are the facts and no one can refute them. You accept them or get ready for God to beat you into HELL (maybe already) with music according to Isaiah 30. Being a capella means ORGANUM so the NO INSTRUMENTS is just a legalistic dodge.

[since you mention huntin fishin and skinnin], that's who we had as a minister after dr. flatt left. you would never hear him call himself doctor...just steve. i remember jimmy's(sites) first lesson after coming to madison. he took his shoes off and left them at pulpit side left, and walked down to floor or pew level. he said those are my shoes and they fit just fine. i'll never try to fill ira, steve or anyone else's shoes. i can't and don't believe God wants me to. he said he would make just two promises for all to hear. he held up his bible and said, " if it's not in this book you will not hear me speak about it...if it is in this book, you most likely will...if you are here to hear it. it may make you uncomfortable, but God's Word is truth that will set you free." from that point forward the power struggle in the eldership began...behind closed doors.

jimmy wren...the implosion as you call it was and is a pruning of branches. they started by stopping jimmy(sites) from speaking some of the things that he wanted to teach about...but it wasn't time anyway...God's time. he has moved on as many others have at madison. they come and they go...just like at your assembly. don't they come and go where you are? i thought that was just natural. what we see now is a strong nucleus of servants, just as we always have had, who are growing in Spiritual freedom with some of the traditional shakles removed. the ones that didn't approve of the eldership's decisions have moved on. from my interaction with some of them as i've visited other assemblies in the area, there are happy ones and sad ones. i believe that's just the way it is. i'm almost 60 now and have been a part of Messiah's redeemed for almost 25 years. one thing i see in all people as they age, especially in the church, is that they are just like the fruit of the vine. they either get mellow and sweeter with age...or they turn to vinegar.

bap,
ls

ps...with a sister like ytbh, how could i ever complain?

"There is ONLY ONE HEAD at Madison unless I miss a bet."


LOVEB, I THINK I MAY AGREE. POST HIS INITIALS HERE AND I WILL SEE IF IT MATCHES MY HYPOTHESIS.

Can't do that but it looks like a serpent.

Did YOU ever see that fire chief outfit? That's still got me and the rest of the department puzzled.

I would just like to say that I did enjoy the way YTBH answered some of the questions that I ask. I did not direct the questions to her but she was kind to answer and she was kind in the way she answered.

In Christ,
Jimmy

Jill Phillips, Andrew Peterson
Saturday, September 30, 2006 (7:00 PM - 10:00 PM)

Madison Church of Christ
103 Gallatin Pike N.
Madison, TN 37115

Jill and Andy will play at Madison Church of Christ as part of a missions fundraiser.

Check out www.ebflo.com's home page for a new interview with Jill by husband Andy.... no, that is really not a joke.
**************

One of the replies to the up coming concert stated:

It has been a busy day at work, and I have wanted to say a couple of things on this thread, but have not had the time. In watching this thread, it has to be the fastest growing list I have ever seen on this site.

First, I do not have a problem with bake sales, car washes and other type of fund raisers (including concerts), especially for the youth group to use for missions or other good community projects. I do not see it any differently than how we would justify the use of the internet or television for spreading the gospel. It is a method that is readily available in our modern times. If someone wants to joyfully give of their time in baking cupcakes or washing cars and someone wants to joyfully contribute to a good work, then I see nothing wrong with it.

Now, from someone who has been there, I can tell you that this concert is one step down the slippery slope towards instrumental music in worship. For those of you not Church of Christ, you have seen that those of us that prefer not using instruments (including those that believe it is a sin and those that believe it is only a preference) that this is a very explosive topic. Many of us guard our tradition (doctrine) very carefully and are very proud of the way that vocal singing inspires us.

This concert is right out of the example book of Oak Hills. This will happen a few times, and then an alternative instrumental worship service will be offered not on a Sunday and so on and so on, until it becomes the norm on Sunday morning. If this is what the folks at Madison want, then they have the right to have it implemented, but they should know that this is the direction that they are headed.
********

In Christ,
Jimmy

As usual, this creature who labels her/his self as YTBH has launched another attack against CM. Involved seems to be a man named "peck" Callgirl and ServantForHim.

It seems that they may have been involved with someone in the MILITARY in Cyprus to black list members of the church of Christ and outlaw any comments about Madison.

The "military" man in Cyprus may also have a plant at Jabez / Faithsite.

These people should understand that they are involved or have Incited a Federal Crime.

Incited a Federal Crime?

David Matthews at lineoneweb said there were new moderators and no imposters.

How was there a federal crime?

Just to push a button, Max, like I learned so well from you.

The Wicked Witches of the Web are at it again: did you also whine like spider?

Pretty soon it will be just the Perpetually Desperate Housewives and a few chicks to carry on some really good bialog. "I am having a headache. Oh, I am having something worse."

I know the moderators don't read stuff (I am quite sure that the daughters of Zoe have taken over there also) so someone said that I used the word "penis." You remember the last howling was that Piney CURSED: quoted John Calvin to ask "why should the ploughing oxen starve and the lazy asses be fed?"

Any old excuse: the site has always been viperishly hostile to the church of Christ.

Whine? Maybe YTBH but MEN? Old YTBH started the downward spiral and now she is whining that SHE TOO got stuff removed. Bad vibes. It IS a debate forum and the GENDER odor will drive everyone away. Paul DID understand the nature of women?

So you are complaining about the FEMALE whiners over at GCM, BRAGGING out about getting posts deleted?

So, then is Dr. Bill a FEMALE?

Paul almost always DEFINES the pagan, perverted religions and the SUPERapostles trained from the Greek theater who were trying to take over the young church assemblies for their own profit. Paul had to denounce ANY support from Corinth as the ONLY WAY to MARK the robbers. All performance preaching, singing, playing, drama or ACTS intending to work some effect are OUTLAWED and specificially called HYPOCRITES and ROBBERS. It was of these MANY of whom Paul said: "IF THEY WILL NOT WORK NEITHER SHALL THE EAT."

There simply are NO Staff Infection Roles for an ekklesia or school of the Bible Jesus died for. He freed us from the BURDEN LADERS who use ANYTHING connected to sight or sound to PRETEND to give the Word of God extra power. In fact, no one with a degree in Bible is remotely capable to define SPIRITUAL SUPERIORITY which is the meaning of a PHARISEE.

The PLEASURING MEN spoke directly to all of the PERFORMING ARTS which the demagogues used to take people captive. Paul defines the TASK of all preachers which is to TEACH that which has been once for all times delivered. Secondly, it is not POSSIBLE to be faithful and use the MACHINERY of the hypocrites thinking to "further expound" the Word of God and thereby spit in the face of Jesus Christ.

But as we were allowed of God

to be put in trust with the gospel,
even so we speak;
not as PLEASING men, but God, which trieth our hearts. 1 Thess 2:4

This PLEASURING includes all of the performing arts of rhetoric, singing, music and drama.

For neither at any time used we flattering words, as ye know, nor a cloke of covetousness; God is witness: 1 Thess 2:5


[Gorgias: Socrates 463c] I assign rhetoric; but without noticing that I have not yet answered that, he proceeds to ask whether I do not consider it a fine thing. But I am not going to reply to the question whether I consider rhetoric a fine or a base thing, until I have first answered what it is; for it would not be fair, Polus: but if you want the information, ask me what sort of branch of flattery I assert rhetoric to be.

ALL actors, singers, musicians or speakers belong to the SECT of the Hypocrites:

Hupokrinô reply, make answer
2. expound, interpret, explain [outlawed by Peter as private interpretation] II. Att., speak in dialogue, hence play a part on the stage, be an actor, kômôidian, of orators and rhetoricians, represent dramatically, use histrionic arts, exaggerate,

rhêtor-ikos , ê, on, oratorical, hê rhêtorikê (sc. technê). These are the craftsmen lumped with the singers, musicians and "grinders" doing merchandise in the house of prayer. Rev. 18:22

Canto , I. Neutr., to produce melodious sounds (by the voice or an instrument), to sound, sing, play (class. in prose and poetry; rare in Cic.)
2. Of the singing pronunciation of an orator , to declaim in a singing tone, to sing, drawl: si cantas, male cantas, si legis, cantas
C. Hence, because the oracles were of old uttered in verse, of any mysterious, prophetic, or warning utterance, to predict, warn, point out, indicate, make known, say
III. In the lang. of religion, as v. n. or a., to use enchantments, charms, incantations, to enchant, to charm,

Jesus pointed to Isaiah and also to Ezekiel 33 to identify the HYPOCRITES

Ye hypocrites [actors, singers, speakers], well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, Mt 15:7

This people draweth nigh unto me

with their mouth,
and honoreth me with their lips;
but their heart is far from me. Mt.15:8


But in vain they do worship me,

teaching for doctrines
the commandments of men. Matt 15:9 [songs, sermons, etal]

Ezekiel defines the SECTARIAN HYPOCRITES more fully:

Also, thou son of man, the children of thy people still are TALKING against thee by the walls and in the doors of the houses, and speak one to another, every one to his brother, saying, Come, I pray you, and hear what is the word that cometh forth from the Lord. Eze 33:30

And they come unto thee as the people cometh,

and they sit before thee as my people,
and they hear thy words,
but they will not do them:


for with their mouth they shew much love,

(Lord, Lord as amorousness - inordinate love),
but their heart goeth after their covetousness. Eze 33:31


Indeed, to them you are NOTHING more

than one who sings love songs (minstrel as a prostitute)
with a beautiful voice
and plays (make melody on) an instrument well,


for they hear your words but do not put them into practice. Eze 33:32NIV

When all this comes true--and it surely will--then they will know that a prophet has been among them." Eze 33:33

ALL people who use RHETORICAL SKILLS, sing, play instruments, clap or do anything to affect spiritual changed through EXTERNAL means are called hypocrites and in Revelation 18 John calls them SORCERERS.

Those who go to WATCH or LISTEN to any kind of religious performance are ALSO defined by Jesus as HYPOCRITES because the SINGING and MUSIC are the MARKS of people who have NO INTENTION to listening and obeying the WORDS of Jesus which are SPIRIT and LIFE. That is obvious to all but fools loving to be fooled.

[End of the online conversation]

Peck,

You keep bringing up extraneous things that have nothing to do with Madison -- the table, decisions don't always please everyone [common knowledge, he-he-he], folks come and go [common knowledge].

Just get to the point. The "Worship Leader" and the "Praise Team" -- these are issues that are splitting congregations, not just Madison.

Evidently, you're not concerned about troubles that CAN BE AVOIDED!!!! You're more interested in a [your] family member than church family members being alienated because of him. So, your own behavior is disturbing to me and to the church you still claim to be a member of.

U.B.

Saying that music and praise teams are splitting churches is like saying that airplanes are what caused 9-11.

Someone did the hijacking and crashing. The issue of music and priase teams has led to some splits. You know why? Because when they are used, LEGALISTIC, REBELLIOUS, UNBIBLICAL, and UNGODLY people REBEL against God and His leaders.

His will is not all the junk that comes from the legalists. Jesus preached and preached and preached AGAINST that kind of stuff until he was tired.

Oh well, whether they repent and beging to do God's will or not, the important thing is, they are not winning. Coming to a congregation near you: INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC!!!! Get used to it.