Place your banner ad here.          See all banner ads

|| || About || Links Library || Help Warn Others ||
|| Madison Church of Christ || Richland Hills Church of Christ || Hillcrest Church of Christ || More Churches || Sunday School in Exile ||

Where is my NewThisWeek Email subscription?Click Here

Place your text ad here.           See all text ads

  << Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Index  

Can someone lead you into the presence of God?

August 17 2006 at 12:02 AM
Jimmy Wren  (no login)
from IP address

Has someone found a path that leads to the actual presence of God? Why would someone make the assertion that you MUST, or have to, be lead into the presence of God and then make the statement that God constantly pursues us through the Holy Spirit?

As strange as it may seem this claim is posted on the web site of the Family of God at Woodmont Hills.

Here are some cut and pasting from a page entitled Our Ministry Staff.

"The ministers for the Family of God at Woodmont Hills are committed to assisting all of us into the presence of God."

"Our ministers point us toward the many opportunities to be in the presence of God." source:

As to the presence of God, the Psalmist said, "Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?" Psalm 139:7 KJV

A question: Did Jonah need someone to lead him into the presence of God? No! It is a fact that Jonah tried to flee the presence but could not. "Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD, and went down to Joppa; and he found a ship going to Tarshish: so he paid the fare thereof, and went down into it, to go with them unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD." Jonah 1:3 KJV

In Christ,

 Respond to this message   
Ken Sublett
(no login)

Yes! Apollyon's Muses or Locusts or Sorcerers can (Rev 18)

August 17 2006, 12:18 PM 

I think the US AIR FORCE in Cyprus is somehow the MANIPUALTOR of FaithSlight and the LOCALS are feminists who intend to restore ONY the FEMINAZIS to repudiate any WORD OF GOD. Actually, I think all of these TRAFFIC sites have collapsed and so PROBABLY belong to an individual to MODERATE or MODULATE.

Fella called ServantForHim may be a WOLF in some church in Nashville? Anyone know of an AIR FORCE TYPE in Cyprus?

Rubel Shelly appeals to Machiavelli to explain why CHANGE took so long. Machiavelli said that you dominate by "PRAYER or FORCE and prayer rarely works." Hitler understood that and used martial music from "religion" to put the HUMAN MATERIAL under domination by the INTELLECTUAL LEADERS. Rubel says about the same thing and he and John York deny "individuals the right to read, interpret and speak the WORD outside of the community reading" and that is why COMMUNITY of FAMILY OF GOD means COMMUNE. Rubel and John prove that by using the wilderness as the PATTERNISM for church rule and worship.

As I remember it, John Mark Hicks brought the Musical Worship Team to Nashville. Rubel Shelly immediately sought to PROCURE one of those. Then needed a B.S. (sure, you know what THAT means) in all syles of music and drama to replace the OLD Jesus as Mediator.

Now, remembering that the sinful woman at the well understood Jesus when He said that worship was not at PHYSICAL PLACES but in the Spirit. She ALREADY knew that: She said, "When Messias comes He will TELL us all things." Wow! You need a PhDuh to get blinded. Paul said that "We worship IN the SPIRIT" because OUTSIDE there be dogs who were the Cynic, male prostitutes howling their songs like the coyotes down in the valley. Paul identified false elders by calling them WOLVES. That was universally the MEANING of homosexuals. The POINTER is to the "ministers" and ELDERS who lust to have professional musicians in their FOLD. A capella meant the Pope's castrated "musical worship team."
    The ministers for the Family of God at Woodmont Hills are committed to assisting all of us into the presence of God
Now, you silly COMMUNAL FODDER thought that the vocational SHEPHEDS led you to STILL WATERS and the FOOD so that YOU, silly lamb, could eat the WORDS of Jesus Christ which are SPIRIT and LIFE. Shelly long ago demoted the shepherds to be shepherds OF THE STAFF who are there by the "sovereign will of God" because of charisma and skill. I can imagine that to be the GOAT LEADER jumping as the LOOK TO THE HILLS.

Now, you notice that only the HIRED STAFF can lead you to God because deacons have been replaced with more complient bonded males and female "deaconess"
    God constantly PURSUES us through the Holy Spirit. Through the power of the written word, the deeds of others, and through various acts of providence, our God provides opportunities for us to COME to him and to have our faith reaffirmed
Firstly, I truly doubt that Shelly even KNOWS the following but it REPUDIATES his false dogma:
    Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Because the Nashville Wrecking Crew is so afflicted with Calvinism he must have missed the point that "faith comes by hearing the Word of God."

Therefore, what the wolves call CHURCH is not even a kissing kin to the EKKLESIA or SYNAGOGUE which Christ founded and Thomas Campbell tried to restore as a SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE. The synagogue and early church "had no praise service" as indeed no one but a FOOLER of FOOLS could halluciante MUSIC when Jesus is speaking when we "speak that which is written."

The Vineyard aka New Wineskins CONFESSION is to bring you into a SEXUAL-LIKE climax with the "spirits" which the WOLVES sell you instead of the FREE WATER of the Word.

The view of THREE SEPARATED members of the Family of Gods originated in Nashville and first OUTED in 1942 by H. Leo Boles of Lipscomb and the Gospel Advocate. John Mark Hicks "credits" Max Lucado and Rubel Shelly with a neo-trinitarism which, he says, tends to deny the PHYSICAL incarnation which I translate to mean ANTI-Christ.

That is so that the TRAFFICERS can SELL their "own charisma and training" and HERESY as uniquely able to speak FOR the HOLY SPIRIT because they assuredly deny inspiration.

Paul spoke to the Athenians who were DIONYSIACS or NEW WINE SKINNERS usually and told them that GOD was not FAR AWAY so that you had to have a SEEKER CENTER as at DELPHI where Apollow's MUSES got you a message for the "gods" while intoxicated on drunks, interpeted by the "priests" and COMPOSED into verse and SUNG to the paying customer just like modern FAKE HEALERS.

This search for the ancient musical worship facilitator is to:
    Assume the primary role for organizing and directing the worship programs of the church.

    Work with the worship planning committee, the preaching minister and worship presentation groups (music, drama and technical) to facilitate group worship experiences which will help bring worshipers into the presence of God. (Wow!)

    Facilitation means: 2. Psychologically increased ease of performance of any action resulting from the lessening of nerve resistance by the continued successive application of the necessary stimulation." (Webster).

Therefore, the praise leader or Music Minister is identified by McClintock-Strong as "the earliest heresy largely pervading the church." The modern confession is that the 'audience' has to be MANIPULATED by external means into the presence of God. The priestesses of paganism did that with sexual and perverted sexual "facilitation" to "bind the flesh and spirit together." Massaging the nerve endings of the body to, in the Vineyard pattern, "reach a climax with God" is the most works-intensive, human talent-intensive legalistic means known to try to "arouse" or "awaken" God (like David) to give the assurance evidentally totally missing in the "new style worship."
    "And Euripides does likewise, in his Bacchae, citing the Lydian usages at the same time with those of Phrygia, because of their similarity:

    But ye who left Mt. Tmolus (Sardis was on this mt.), fortress of Lydia, revel-band of mine, women whom I brought from the land of barbarians as my assistants and travelling companions,

    uplift the tambourines native to Phrygian cities, inventions of mine and mother Rhea. (ZOE)

    And again, happy he who, blest man, initiated in the mystic rites, is pure in his life, . . . who, preserving the righteous orgies of the great mother Cybele, and brandishing the thyrsus on high, and wreathed with ivy, doth worship Dionysus.

    Come, ye Bacchae, come, ye Bacchae, bringing down (double entendre) Bromius, (boisterous one) god the child of god, out of the Phrygian mountains into the broad highways of Greece.

You DO remember that Corinth is Rubel Shelly's PATTERNISM for UNITY IN DIVERSITY. When people repudiate the WORD of God He sends you strong delusions so that you believe a lie and are damned along with the blind.
    There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification. 1 Corinthians 14:10

    Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me. 1 Corinthians 14:11

The CHANGELINGS planned to use CODED WORDS knowing that fools love to be fooled.

 Respond to this message   
Jimmy Wren
(no login)

Does a praise minister, in his mind, think he is an angel?

August 17 2006, 3:14 PM 

There are some ministers and praise leaders who would have you think that they stand in the literal presence of God. They are the worship leaders that make the claim to lead a congregation into the presence of God. When quizzed as to how they along can accomplish such a feat they answer by the songs and the way we sing them. Rapid, fast, jumpy, dancing. Repeating the same thing over and over, we must work up the audience until they feel what we would like for them to feel.

So it all comes down to feelings? At least the Family of God at Woodmont gave a somewhat different answer as to how their ministers lead a group into the presence of God. They did not address their praise leader, so I assume that person to speak the same as most praise leaders do. However they still leave the impression that they are literally in God’s presence and you are not. You only come into God’s presence by allowing them to lead you into it.

It seems some men have elevated themselves to the position of angels. Just as an angel once said, ”I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to show thee these glad tidings.” Luke 1:19 KJV This statement by Gabriel sounds much like the statement of the ministers of Woodmont and the praise leader of Madison and other places. Have ministers and praise leaders come to think of themselves as angels?

There is one who appears in the literal presence of God for us and it is not the ministers of a church. The Hebrew writer wrote, “For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:”

Paul did not claim that those who were saved needed him or any of the apostles to lead them into the presence of God in the worship assembly. Paul wrote, “ for what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?” 1 Thess. 2:19 KJV

In Christ,

 Respond to this message   
(Login wordkeeper)

Re: Does a praise minister, in his mind, think he is an angel?

August 17 2006, 5:19 PM 

I also have a problem of one believer leading
a congregation of believers into the "presence
of the Lord" It flys in the face of scripture
where Peter writes in I Peter 2:9 that we are
a kingdom of priests. I appreciate someone who
is talented or gifted in the area of music to
lead worship services. But as far as being in the
presence of the Lord; I do that myself when I
close my eyes and worship Jesus. I often do
that by myself at home listening to praise and
worship music and I don't need a worship leader
for that.

Thank you,


So wherever you assemble, I want men to pray
with holy hands lifted up to God, free from
anger and controversy.

I Timothy 2:8

 Respond to this message   
Donnie Cruz
(no login)

A problem: one leading into the “presence of the Lord”

August 20 2006, 1:06 AM 


So, you are saying that the “worship leader,” no matter how convinced he/she is of his/her leadership role, does not/should not lead the [entire] congregation into “God’s holy presence”? Whose function should it be, then, to lead the gathering of priests and saints into the presence of the Lord?

Do you see any difference between the designated title of “worship leader” and “song leader”? Before you became affiliated with a charismatic group, you may recall in the church that the role of the “song leader” [while this may sound like a title as well] was simply to lead singing or to get a song started. He didn’t even have to stand in front of the congregation or wag his arms, etc.—and different men were able to assist in this regard.

In the postmodern religious era, the “worship leader” is an entirely different staff infection—he/she is a full-time employee of a local church with the responsibility for the whole “worship” scheme, NOT just singing.

You made the following statement: “I appreciate someone who is talented or gifted in the area of music to lead worship services.”

I am glad to note that you consider that what an individual has is a natural talent or gift from God. Hopefully, you would agree with me that although such is a talent or gift from God, it is not one of the spiritual gifts mentioned in the Corinthian epistles.

I would like to make a correction to that statement, and here it is—that someone who has a special talent in music alone does not make him a “worship leader.” There is already a big question regarding “worship leading” [what is that scripturally speaking, anyway?], much less designating someone in the area of music as “the worship leader.”

In your short post above, you have brought up quite a few other issues:

  • (a) “… in the area of music to lead worship services”—needed here is a further recognition of music [defined as vocal and/or instrumental] having to do with “worship services” when music is not even referenced in the New Testament as being related to the assembly;

  • (b) “… when I close my eyes and worship Jesus” … considering the instruction from Jesus himself in regard to worshipping God, our Father [John 4:23,24];

  • (c) … that you are [led/] into the presence of God by “listening to praise and worship music”—what is praise music … what is worship music;

  • (d) your quote from I Timothy 2:8—“So wherever you assemble, I want men to pray with holy hands lifted up to God, free from anger and controversy.” [____ version] Some questions in consideration here:

    • Men to pray—does this also involve “men to sing”?
    • Men to pray—does this include “women to pray”?
    • Men to pray—does this include “women to sing”?
    • With holy hands—does this exclude unholy hands?
    • With holy hands—does this exclude unholy hands of men only?
    • With holy hands—of men only?
    • … [feel free to add other combinations to your heart’s content]
    • Holy hands lifted up—the only position allowed?
    • How and what do we know about “holy hands”?
    • Is the expression “holy hands” possibly figurative?
    • “Holy hands lifted up”—possibly figurative?
    • Men cannot do the process when there is anger?
    • Men cannot do the process when there is controversy?
    • Again … various possibilities or combinations of factors here—I’m leaving that to the mathematician or statistician.

Harry, I could be assuming too much, but why did you post in that manner—and concluded with the arm-lifting issue?


 Respond to this message   
harry smith
(no login)

Re: A problem: one leading into the “presence of the Lord”

September 1 2006, 6:28 PM 

Sorry it has taken so long to respond but work has been hectic. I guess to start out I need to refer to the Old Testament with Exodus 33:15-23 and I'll quote from Peterson's The Message.

"Moses said,"If your presence doesn't take the lead here, call this trip off right now. How else will it be known that you're with me in this, with me and your people ? Are you traveling with us or not ? How else will we know that we are special, I and your people, among all other people on this planet Earth?"
God said to Moses:"All right. Just as you say; this also I will do, for I know you well and you are special to me. I know you by name.
Moses said, "Please. Let me see your Glory."
God said, "I will make my Goodness pass right in front of you; I'll call out the name,God, right before you. I'll treat whomever I want to treat well and I'll be kind to whomever I want to be kind."
God continued,"But you may not see my face. No one can see me and live."
God said, "Look, here is a place right beside me. Put yourself on this rock. When my Gory passes by, I'll put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with my hand until I've passed by. Then I'll take my hand away and you'll see my back. But you won't see my face."

But, we are part of a better covenant. Paul refers to this Mosaic experience in II Chorinthians 3:16-18

"Whenever, though, they ( those of us in the New Covenant) turn to face God as Moses did, God removes the veil and there they are -face to face! They suddenly recognize that God is a living personal presence, not a piece of chisled stone. And when God is personally present, a living Spirit, that old, constricting legislation is recognized as obsolete. We're free of it! All of us! Nothing between us and God, our faces shining with the brightness of his face. And so we are transfigured much like the Messiah, our lives gradually becoming brighter and more beautiful as God enters our lives and we become like him."

I'd like to bring out several points of these two passages of scripture:

1. The comparison between the old covenant where a spiritual leader or priest must be present to enter the presence of God as opposed to the Pauline passage where there is nothing between us and God and we can enter His empowering presence any time without a leader.

2. Being in God's presence is normative, not just a Sunday morning experience. His presence can fill us in the middle of the night at home or in our cars on the way to work. As important as baptism is my own theology and probably yours also, the mark of true Christianity is having that presence of God in our personal lives, In early Christianity that was the difference maker from true religion to false religions. The same can be said of today.

3. As much as you may not like this point but, this experience is Charismatic in the very true sense of the word "gifted or graced".
Being in the presence of this wondorous Living Spririt and even being filled with this Spirit is indeed a wonderful grace or gift in our lives.

You then asked several excellant questions in which I hope to answer to your satisfaction:

You raised the issue as to whether the "worship leader" should be paid and whether worship includes instumental music.

If you refer to I Chronicles 15:16 it states,

"David also ordered the Levite leaders to appoint a choir of Levites who were singers and musicians to sing joyful songs to the accompaniment of lyres,harps and cymbals."

I believe we'll probably disagree on the point I am about to make but here it goes. I believe that everything, and I do mean everything, in the Bible both Old Testament and New Testament is relevant for today with only two exceptions. Christ is our sacfricial lamb for our sins and to have a relationship with God and second; our relationship is based on grace and not obedience to the law. But even then, the law is still instructive in our lives but we are under grace. Thus, Davidic worship with instuments and worship leaders can still be used for today. I just don't believe that I have to have a worship leader to enter God's presence.
Yes, I believe that worship leaders should be paid just like if there are maritial counselors on the ministerial staff should be paid. How else will these people support their families ?

You mentioned that worship leading is not a spiritual gift mentioned in I Corinthians. That is true but the list in I Corinthians 12 was not meant to be exhuastive. Several others I can think of are not mentioned:

Gift of writting like Max Lucado, Ruebel Shelly, C.S. Lewis, James Dobson, Billy Graham, etc.
Gift of preaching like Landon Saunders, Charles Stanly, Joel Osteen.
Gift of charity work; Gift of mediation like Mark F.
Gift of mercy like Mother Theresa,
Gift of technology like workers who help in the sound booth or web sites like Donny Cruz.

You mentioned whether or not to close your eyes:
that is just personal preference. It does help you focus
more on Jesus and being in the presence of God.

The difference between praise music and worship music.
I really don't know for sure but I believe that praise music is more uptempo and worship music is more slow and mellow.

On lifting up hands while worshipping or praying.
This also is personal preference but, when I FEEL the presence of God and I am filled with my Spirit I do lift my arms in a way of saying I surrender all to my Lord. It is a very liberating feeling because I know in my heart that when I surrender all to my Lord that is the right thing to do. How does the song go "Take my silver and my gold not a might do I withhold." I suurender all, All to Jesus my precious savior I surrender all"

Why do I sigh my posts with the passage in I Timothy ?

I noticed that several e-mails I get and sometimes even on this website I see others post a scripture that is special to the author. The passage in I Timothy is special to me because I was really self conscious about doing something like that but, once I decided to do it I knew why Paul told people to lift their arms in worship and I hope others can do also because it really releases the spirit and makes for a unique experience.

I hope this helps you Bro. Donny Cruz.

Harry Smith

 Respond to this message   
harry smith
(Login wordkeeper)

Re: A problem: one leading into the “presence of the Lord”

September 6 2006, 12:06 PM 

Dear Bro. Donnie Cruz,

Please accept my apologizes for mis-spelling
your name. As it so happens my best friend's
name is Donny and I had just e-mailed him a
message and I didn't think to correct the spelling
on the last post.

Thank you,

Harry Smith

P.S. No matter what; I will always consider
you to be a brother-in Christ even if we
do see things differently.

 Respond to this message   
Donnie Cruz
(no login)

About “Family of God at Woodmont Hills” Church

August 21 2006, 4:22 AM 

The scriptures reveal to us that the church established by Jesus Christ in Jerusalem is referred to as the church of God, church of the living God, the church of the saints, church of the firstborn, etc., or simply the church; congregations are referred to as churches of Christ or as churches of God or as simply the churches, etc.

We know about Oak Hills Church [formerly “of Christ”] in San Antonio, TX. There are a few other congregations that have dropped the name “of Christ” to make the church “Community-driven” and in open fellowship with other religious faiths. I know it’s not about the sign on the building, but why the “Family of God”? Is the name “of Christ” an embarrassment to the religious world?

Anyway, I think we need a little more background regarding this particular congregation as I believe it will help us in further discussion of what this thread is all about: “Can someone lead you into the presence of God?” For example, what is “Our Ministry Staff” comprised of?

Under “Staff,” are listed the following: (a) Support Staff with a list of 9 contacts, mostly women who are, e.g., Children’s Ministry Assistant, Assistant to Ministers, Youth & Worship Assistant, etc.; (b) individual names of men and women as ministers.

One woman [with her husband?] is the “Connecting, Involvement & Small Group Minister.” I’m not sure if “small groups” are co-ed—more likely. O.K. I have no comments on another woman who is “Minister of Caring Services”; and another who is “Children’s Minister.”

John Mark Hicks and John York—we know or hear about. And, of course, Rubel Shelly whose page is left blank with no picture or any information at all—did I miss it? Will someone update us on Rubel?

According to the census from C.C.U.S. (2003 Edition) the average attendance at Family in 2002 was 2,350. I was somewhat alarmed to find out that the attendance in July and August, 2006 was listed weekly as: 1,632 … 1,549 … 1,673 … 1,761 … 1,632 … 1,841.

What is going on at Family?


 Respond to this message   
(no login)

Re: About “Family of God at Woodmont Hills” Church

August 21 2006, 10:28 AM 

"What is going on at Family?"

It's none of you business.

 Respond to this message   
Ken Sublett
(no login)

Have they shed their WINESKIN? Yes.

August 21 2006, 11:16 AM 

Google: rubel shelly rochester

You will find links to Piney and CM. Rubel left Woodmont and is working at Rochester College which is about as off center as Rubel. While Rubel conspired with the Christian Church I don't believe that a single one of them would hire one who betrayed his own employers. Too bad, now that the mega-church madness has passed the UNEMPLOYABLES have to find another way to fleece the lambs and the Missional Ministry is IT: missional is not a real word but it is a missionary SOUND ALIKE to fool the fools.

I have reviewed the MISSIONAL CHURCH used by Shelly as he trains us some new MINISTERS: This intends to restore the FIVE FOLD MINISTRY including unquestioned apostles and prophets. Woodmont is such an organization: the vocational deacons have been replalded by more complient and "on the dole" STAFF INFECTION

I have reviewed the CODE WORDS of the missional church here:

When people OPENLY DENY that the Bible has anything of value left except as fragments out of which WE can partner with God to work out our own Narrative then God sends them STRONG delusions. In Rubel's parting remarks he confessed that he was a great tribulation for the elders as he WORKED THROUGH HIS THEOLOGY. Shame, shame, shame. So, I think packing up time came and going to Rochester was a ploy. That explains the fact that when you build a church on a PERSONA then you attract look-alikes and when the persona leaves the "goats" leave with him. Others may have left because as butterflies they are always looking for the newest nectar to suck.

Sometimes it takes elders a long time to SHED the decayed snake skin and let us pray that they will become an example of people who have survived their own dark nights.

Spidey, over at FaithSlight lied about the drop in attendance and the hysteria over there is based on what we have prayed and worked for to spread some LIGHT in a VERY DARK place right now. They WILL hurt you.

 Respond to this message   
Ken Sublett
(no login)

How Satan's "angels" lead you to Apollyon with MUSES.

August 22 2006, 12:16 AM 

Much of the musical madness which hit churches of Christ was Rubel Shelly and ZOE doing a DITTO HEAD of trying to turn the church from "school of the Bible" to "theater for holy entertainment" as Donnie's wrecking crew confessed.

God always gives us a SIGN so we can escape: Zoe is Lucifer in the garden of Eden as the "singing and harp playing prostitue." As king/qeen of Tyre she steals your money AND your souls into slavery.

The Musical Madness is in fulfillment of Revelation 18 where Apollo unleashes the LOCUSTS which is a code word for the MUSES or musicians in Revelation 18. John identifies them all as SORCERERS and it is a MARK that God HAS removed the candles and they will never glow again.

The MUSES are leading you into the PRESENCE of the DEVIL or LUCIFER who thought that he/she had overcome Jehovah! They SING the LAWS of Satan or Apollo!! They LOOK TO THE HILLS OR MOUNTAIN GODS. John, of course, was pointing even a child who would have heard the legends recited. This proves that those "standing in the holy place" claiming to LEAD you into the presence of God are the ABOMINATION which DESOLATES. This is because they are leading you to worship Apollo who is Apollyon and the muses are HIS "musical worship team."
    Hesiod, Theogony There are their bright dancing places and beautiful homes, and beside them the Graces and Himerus (Desire) live [65] in delight. And they, uttering through their lips a lovely voice, sing the laws of all and the goodly ways of the immortals, uttering their lovely voice. Then went they to Olympus, delighting in their sweet voice, with heavenly song, and the dark earth resounded
      [70] about them as they chanted and a lovely sound
      rose up beneath their feet as they went to their father.
      And he was reigning in heaven,
      himself holding the lightning and glowing thunderbolt,
      when he had overcome by might his father Cronos;
      and he distributed fairly to the immortals their portions and declared their privileges.

    [75] These things, then, the Muses sang who dwell on Olympus, nine daughters begotten by great Zeus, Cleio and Euterpe, Thaleia, Melpomene and Terpsichore, and Erato and Polyhymnia and Urania and Calliope,3 who is the chiefest of them all, [80] for she attends on worshipful princes: whomever of heaven-nourished PRINCES the daughters of great Zeus honor and behold at his birth,
      they pour sweet dew upon his tongue,
      and from his lips flow gracious words.
Zoe and Woodmont lie: the command is NOT to look to the hills. This is a question: SHALL we look to the Hill's God? The implied answer is NO!

In the Baal Epic you will see the LOOK TO THE HILLS theme which plagued Israel when God turned them over to worship "the starry host" as a result of their musical idolatry at Mount Sinai.
    Baal was now King of the Gods. Lord of the Mountain of Saphon. But Baal had no palace like the other Gods. He speaks His word to Kothat-u-Khasis:

    And the servants of the king of Syria said unto him, Their gods are gods of the hills; therefore they were stronger than we; but let us fight against them in the plain, and surely we shall be stronger than they. 1K.20:23
      Har (g2022) har; a short. form of 2042; a mountain or range of hills (sometimes used fig.): - hill (country), mount (-ain), * promotion.

    And there came a man of God, and spake unto the king of Israel, and said, Thus saith the Lord,
      Because the Syrians have said, The Lord is God of the hills,
      but he is not God of the valleys,
      therefore will I deliver all this great multitude into thine hand, and ye shall know that I am the Lord. 1 Kings 20:28
All of history knows that singers and musicians were DELIGHTED to be the "harem of the gods." They are NOT leading you to Jesus Christ because "He is NOT far from us" and He IS NOT (especially on Sunday) likely to be in that CITY SET ON SEVEN HILLS.

 Respond to this message   
Donnie Cruz
(no login)

Feeling God’s Presence: Not Inward Focused, Not About Me…

August 23 2006, 3:48 AM 

Here’s a dialogue about postmodern worship:

    ”. . . Here finally, is my point.... I think. One guy with ideas such as these ought not act as if he speaks for an entire generation, especially when the ideas/ideals are so obscure and difficult to define. In addition, I am surprised that the editors of Worship Leader magazine did not see this as such.

    If we begin to receive philosophies and ideas such as this, and assume that they are good and right because it's found in a reputable magazine, we could find ourselves in a potentially dangerous position. The danger in this situation lies, in beginning to believe that God and the pursuit of God, and experiencing God can take any form that fits you. So we mold and shape Him into something that will fit our ideology and feeds our senses. The concept that a shift in perceptions of time and space having a legitimate effect on the way that we approach this generation or lead them into worship is in my mind, a distraction. Yes, know your people, yes understand generational differences, yes learn to be flexible. But we should not give way to any theology or wind of doctrine that takes more issue with the experiencing of God, than the worship of God. Worship isn't about the way we feel God's presence. That's a by-product of His grace. Worship is about Him, it is not inward focused, not about me and adjusting to what fits me.

 Respond to this message   
Ken Sublett
(no login)

All RITUALS with or without instruments LEAPS to the other side of the cross!

September 3 2006, 4:49 PM 

Harry, you missed Mount Sinai 101a. God gave Israel The Book of The Covenenat much like the Abrhamic Covenant. There was NO mandatory animal sacrifices because God had told Abraham that GOD WILL PROVIDE
    Exod 32:6 And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to PLAY.
This was the MUSICAL IDOLATRY of the Egyptian Triad. Paul warned Rome about this in Romans 10 and then defined them in Romans 14 by their practices as the Orphites and Dionysiacs: both HIGHLY ADDICTED to music when they ASSEMBLED. Therefore, in Romans 15 he OUTLAWS any DIALOG by them and prescribed SPEAKING the Word. He also warned the Corinthians in chapter 10 before he defined the warrior/witchcraft connection with sounding gongs and tinkling symbols. He went on to condemn THEIIR practicws.
    The latin Ludo and the Hebrew prove that this was very similar to modern WORSHIP SERVICES (service meaning hard bondage). The Latin Pecco,
No one has ever doubted that all forms of MUSIC intends to arouse a "spiritual" feeling which we all know to be SEXUAL. Paul outlows the "mental excitement" or self-pleasing in Romans 15 and connected it to the Hebrew REPROACHES predicted of Jesus which meant to musically mock Him and make him naked.
    Exod 32:7 And the Lord said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:

    Exod 32:17 And when Joshua heard the noise of the people as they shouted, he said unto Moses, There is a noise of war in the camp.

    Exod 32:18 And he said, It is not the voice of them that shout for mastery, neither is it the voice of them that cry for being overcome; but the noise of them that SING do I hear.

Before he came into their presence Moses identified IDOLATRY because he said IT IS SINGING THAT I HEAR. He broke the tablets devoted to GRACE and got The Book of the Law: stephen says that God TURNED THEM OVER TO WORSHIP THE STARRY HOST.
    CRY: H6030 Anah aw-naw' A primitive root; properly to eye or (generally) to heed, that is, pay attention; by implication to respond; by extension to begin to speak; specifically to sing, shout, testify, announce
This points to the OPPRESSION which they used and would use on Messiah in Psalm 22 and 41.
    SING: H6031 anah aw-naw' A primitive root (possibly rather identical with H6030 through the idea of looking down or browbeating); to depress literally or figuratively, transitively or intransitively (in various applications)

    Exod 32:25 And when Moses saw that the people were naked; (for Aaron had made them naked unto their shame among their enemies:)

    Para (h6544) paw-rah'; a prim. root; to loosen; by impl. to expose, dismiss; fig. absolve, begin: - avenge, avoid, bare, go back, let, (make) naked, set at nought, perish, refuse, uncover.
Stephen said that God TURNED THEM OVER TO WORSHIP THE STARRY HOST and that is what they did.

When the ELDERS "fired" God and demanded a king it was so that they could WORSHIP LIKE THE NATIONS. God warned them that the king would take their tithe and more and give it to his MINISTRY LEADERS. He would take the young men and make them warriors and MUSICAL INSTRUMENT players to make WAR.

When David sinned and could not go OUTSIDE to Gibeon to seek God, he was given a Jebusite HIGH PLACE for the ALTERNATIVE SACRIFICE. This was NOT GOD'S plan but God's PUNISHMENT.

The Levitical Warrior Musicians who made NOISE and not MUSIC were under the KING and the COMMANDERS OF THE ARMY.

The word PRAISE means to "make self vile" which was to make yourself so loud and disgusting and threatening that the enemy would PANIC and turn coward. When you see things like Temple Dedication this was ONLY by the king, civil leaders and CLERGY.

The congregation was NEVER the people but ONLY the civil system TURNED OVER TO BE a Gentile Monarchy--against God's will but the plan to carry out the captivity and death sentence.

The congregation was the Qahal, synagogue or church in the wilderness. The TRIUMPH or ALARM which meant play and sing was OUTLAWED because the Holy Convocation was not a WORSHIP SERVICE in the pagan sense: it was to REST which NEVER meant worship, READ the Word and REHEARSE it. This is what Jesus exampled, commanded in the ekklesia or school of the Bible, Paul commanded in the NOT SINGING in the external sense passages, which the church observed before the apostasies of preaching and singing was added about the year 400.

This is what the church Scholars still defend. MUSIC is outlawed by the WAYS in which it is the weapon of Lucifer, prostitutes, sodomites and Warriors. Revelation 17 ends with defining the PRESENT CHRISTIANISM as under the Babylon Harlot: here speakers, singers, musicians and ALL staff infection are defined by John as SORCERERS. Indeed, ALL singing and musical terms in the Greek language pointed to CHARMING or ENCHANTING or SORCERY. Because most people DID NOT take them seriously, they were called PARASITES.

The present church is falling back into JUDAISM which was NOT that of Abraham or the ISRAELITES but of the CAINITES or KENNITES who ruled in Jerusalem. That is why Jesus refused to preach to them except in parables, called them sons of the Devil because "they speak on their own" and John refused to baptize them as a GENERATION OF VIPERS. The CROOKED generation points DIRECTLY to the drunk singers and musicians and are seen as of the RACE of CAIN. And Cain was OF THAT WICKED ONE and the eternal persona of the SON OF PERDITION. The Judas Bag was for carrying the mouthpieces of wind instrumets. Psalm 41 prophesied that Judas would try to TRIUMPH OVER or ALARM (that outlawed for the church) but would fail. Therefore, it was the Warrior Levites who musically mocked Jesus right up to the cross if you accept the DSS translation of this Psalm.

Worship was defined THROUGHOUT the Bible and Thomas Campbell as to "read and muse the Word of God." That's it. Jesus institute, Paul commanded and the church practiced the Lord's Supper: that's it. Anything you ADD to that sows discord and minimizing the SYNAGOGUE or TEACHING the Word direct command.

When WE come boldly before the Throne of Grace as priest: it is ONE at a time. Any speaker, singer or musician who attempted to LEAD you there was worthy of death. Jesus said to PRAY in our CLOSET which is a DARK, QUIET place where NO ONE can lead you. Jesus said to give our "laid by in store" ALMS from our hands to the hands of the POOR: no collection plate and therefore NO FUNDING to steal from the lied-to widows to PAY them. There was a half-hours silence at the incense altar looking INTO the Most Holy Place. That is why we HOLD the harps OF God (fruit of the lips) and HOLD our bowlS of incense which are the PRAYERS of the Saints: Hanna did that inaudibly.

 Respond to this message   
  << Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Index  
Place your text ad here.           See all text ads

This web site is not part of or approved by any Church!

...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

Click Here......The Book is Available Now FREE

Place your banner ad here.           See all banner ads ...About ...Links Library ...Sunday School in Exile ...Help Warn Others

FastCounter by bCentral

CM Visit Counter as of 6/25/2015

Site Visits Since 6/30/2015
page counter