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Otter Creek Church: a Community Church?

August 26 2006 at 3:55 AM
Donnie Cruz  (no login)
from IP address 65.1.220.142

I have just re-visited Otter Creek’s new-formatted website:

OtterCreek Church


Its story: “…while our heritage is in God and His Son, our history is one of a community congregation that welcomes all comers and seeks opportunities to serve and comfort in His name.” [emph. d.c.]

Its mission: “The Otter Creek Church is a Christ-led, Spirit-powered, Grace-motivated family of believers. Our mission is to:

  • reach up through worship and holy living
  • reach in by fostering community and maturity
  • reach out through service, witness and influence

God is changing the world through us as we become Christ’s presence in this place.”

Its faith: “In a religious world where there is so much variety and divergence, it’s important for a community of faith to be open about what they believe. It is in the spirit of that openness that Otter Creek points to the following matters as important & central to its faith. These matters are the core of us, and though our convictions extend beyond what we mention here, these beliefs are what we consider to be necessary for fellowship in Jesus.

“You won’t find anything strange or out of line with the beliefs of most Christians. We provide this statement of faith, not to explain how we are distinct from everybody around us, but to testify that we have a great deal in common with all those who claim Jesus as Lord and who take the Bible seriously.”

Some of the itemized statements no longer consider baptism as a necessary or the ultimate step in the conversion process—or at least … are inconsistent or contradictory. Notice:

  • “Salvation is by God’s grace, through Christ’s cross, and a result of the Spirit’s active work. It is received through faith. It is sealed in confession and baptism. It is demonstrated in a life lived under the lordship of Jesus.

  • “There is one Church. She is the community of people who have trusted in Jesus to make them right with God and to send the Holy Spirit to make them more like God. The church is a “commissioned people,” partnering with God to accomplish His purposes in this world.

  • “God has given His church special ways in which we can draw close to Him personally and enjoy His blessings. These include baptism [sounds like an after-the-fact … in the church], prayer, worship, preaching, the Supper, Bible study, spiritual gifts, fasting, and relationship with each other and Himself.”

Its leaders: The names of 15 elders are listed. The list is a portion of a page with no pictures, no contact information, etc.—in comparison to pages of info on the admin staff and ministers both men and women.

Whereas Tim Woodroof, “functions as our ‘Senior Minister,’ coordinating the ministry team, working directly with the elders, and being a spokesman for the church

Its other activities: In the TGIW (Thank God it’s Wednesday) section, we read:

    That’s right; Wednesday nights do count at Otter Creek! We’re not saying you have to attend church on Wednesday in order to please God or get your “ticket punched.” What we are saying is during the summer months of June, July and August, a gifted mix of speakers, authors, musicians, and actors will join us on Wednesday evenings @ 7pm to inspire and challenge. You may just find yourself saying, “Thank God it’s Wednesday!

Musicians! “Join us for a wonderful musical experience” with Phil Keaggy in concert—that was on August 23. Some of the other activities scheduled … and the women speakers:

  • JUNE 7 -- Beyond the DaVinci Code: The Real Story of Jesus & Women
    Dr. Amy Jill Levine

  • JUNE 14 -- How the Trinity Keeps the Christian Life on Track
    [Wasn’t the “direct influence” of God’s Spirit upon the Christian or the church taught? Hmmm! dc]
    Dr. Leonard Allen

  • JUNE 28 -- FX! A Family Worship Experience [What “worship” experience?]

  • AUGUST 9 -- Vespers with a message from Kathleen Flood on
    "Why Sabbath?"

Is this the Otter Creek [Community] Church?

Donnie

 
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AuthorReply
Donnie Cruz
(no login)
65.1.220.142

“The Musical Worship”

August 26 2006, 4:07 AM 

Source: OtterCreek Church

“The Musical Worship”: “Brandon [Scott Thomas] has been on the ministry team at Otter Creek since November, 1995. He leads our regular worship times, plans special events, organizes the choir and praise team ministries and works with a wide variety of gifted people to enrich our worship experiences. He also plans our Summer Life Series, various outreach events, & plays a leading role in the Zoe Worship Ministry.

Praise Teams
    The members of the praise teams serve primarily as praise leaders [men and women] for each service at Otter Creek. They also direct thoughts through means of special songs and readings. Members of the praise team will be [future?] expected to live as worshippers.
Musical Productions
    We have established a tradition of excellence in the arts. Traditionally, we do a full-scale musical with costumes, stage, and lighting at Easter and a smaller-scaled production at Christmas. Both productions are approached from a highly professional point of view and with the expectation that we can have high quality productions in churches today. We would love for you to be a part of that with us. Believe me, there IS a place for YOU!”
Is this the Otter Creek [Community] Church?

Donnie [emphases mine]

 
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Peck123
(Login Peck123)
209.240.206.191

Re: “The Musical Worship”

August 27 2006, 12:20 PM 

This thread is sick..

We have a christian who comes in late at service to avoid the contemporary songs...sits in the balcony and finds negative reviews of his congregation to spread to the world through his website..

Then we have a christian who stays at home and doesn't attend a congregation but sits on his computer and tells people that those who are attending and worshipping are wrong to sing in the assembly and for having paid preachers...

Though they are both christians in the body of Christ...I ask...Are they qualified to sit in judgement of Otter Creek and Madison...What do you think?

God bless,Peck

 
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Jimmy Joe
(no login)
68.52.126.244

Answering your question

August 27 2006, 11:08 PM 

Peck,
To answer your question without explicating in a two thousand word post, the simple answer is a resounding NO.

 
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Ken Sublett
(no login)
69.19.14.40

"Enable" musical idolatry and you ARE an idolatry: "of talent."

September 9 2006, 1:12 PM 

Yes, it IS NASTY: That is why bringing in musical performers causes the FLIGHT of so many owners of a confiscated church. They may not know WHY the hair stands up on their necks and they feel like fleeing but it is instinct-driven. Modern science knows what the Serpent or "musical enchanter"in the garden of Eden knew: that musical sounds create drugs and the impulse of FIGHT, FLIGHT or a cause-and-effect yo-yo cycle of SEXUAL feelings. The Music - Sexuality connection is ABSOLUTE. I don't know about your "wolves" but the PERSONA you have chosen for yourself causes DISGUST in spiritual-minded people and the FLEE.

All of the PLUCKING words used by the FALSE authority for complex singing or instruments is defined from the literature. There, you will find older males plucking the harp to groom young boys. I cannot help that but no PhDuh will find an exception so we wonder why 'Christian' "scholars" are co-conspirators in deliberately sowing discord?

NO PREACHING, NO SINGING, NO MUSIC, NO COLLECTION OF TAXES AND NO DOMINANT LEADER. These are ALL excluded in the literature connected to SELF PLEASING which is usually by the DEMAGOGUE "using popular arts to appease the crowd" for the purpose of HERESY or "carrying people away for his OWN uses" and connected to the word KLEPTOMA.

In Romans 14 Paul EXCLUDES private diversities including dietary practices as NOT subjects for dialog in the EKKLESIA or synagogue or school of the Bible.

However, in Romans 15 Paul EXCLUDES religious practices which were MORALLY WRONG and unacceptable for the church assembly. As the synagogue "had no praise service" or preaching other than reading and exhorting, the definition of the ekklesia (the church in the wilderness) outlaws the ADDING of preaching, singing and music which were for PERSONAL PLEASURING and antithetical to A SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE. We KNOW from recorded history, especially the Apostolic Constitutions that these things WERE EXCLUDED.

The Latin version uses three different forms of PLEASURE which are defined by the context. The ARESKO or "creating mental excitement" specificially points to SINGING. The equivalent Latin is:

XV. debemus autem nos firmiores inbecillitates infirmorum sustinere et non nobis placere [2] unusquisque vestrum proximo suo placeat in bonum ad aedificationem [3] etenim Christus non sibi placuit sed sicut scriptum est inproperia inproperantium tibi ceciderunt super me [4] quaecumque enim scripta sunt ad nostram doctrinam scripta sunt ut per patientiam et consolationem scripturarum spem habeamus

Placeo to please, to be pleasing or agreeable, to be welcome, acceptable, to satisfy (class.).

The Look to the Hills brought in a guru to refute the Platonic Fallacy. Remember? That was the universal thesis which connected the "histrionic arts" to homosexuality. We understand that people want to be FAMOUS singers but the PERSONA has no place in the church of Christ because it is also EXPLICITELY excluded. The pleasuring which Jesus did not submit to was the reproaches in Hebrew which meant to MAKE HIM NAKED.

Outlawed: 1. In scenic lang., of players or pieces presented, to please, find favor, give satisfaction: scenico placenti
    2. Placere sibi, to be pleased or satisfied with one's self, to flatter one's self, to pride or plume one's self

    Vergil Muses Apollyon: CORYDON
    "Libethrian Nymphs, who are my heart's delight,
    grant me, as doth my Codrus, so to sing--
    next to Apollo [Apollyon] he--or if to this
    we may not all attain, my tuneful pipe
    here on this sacred pine shall silent hang."

    THYRSIS
    "Arcadian shepherds, wreathe with ivy-spray
    your budding poet, so that Codrus burst
    with envy: if he praise beyond my due,
    then bind my brow with foxglove, lest his tongue
    with evil omen blight the coming bard."
Outlawed: Scaenicus I. of or belonging to the stage, scenic, dramatic, theatrical

Outlawed: I. Lit.: poëtae, dramatic poets, ludi, stage-plays, theatrical representations, : fabula, a drama, organa, Suet. Ner. 44 : coronae, id. ib. 53 : habitus, id. ib. 38 : gestus, Cic. de Or. 3, 59, 220 : modulatio Comedy. Orator
    Poi-êtês II. composer of a poem, author, p. kômôidias Pl.Lg.935e ; p. kainôn dramatôn, b. composer of music, 2. author of a speech
Peter outlawed PRIVATE INTERPRETATION which means FURTHER COMPOSING: All of the songs and sermons have been composed by the Spirit of Christ and the DIRECT COMMAND was "to speak that which is written" or be MARKED as a false teacher.

Athenian Law OUTLAWED sending philosophers, poets or musicians out as KERUSSO meaning heralds or preachers or presbyters. They could never resist CHANGING the message from the king to the commanders in the field.
    Used with hupo-kritês I. interpreter or expounder, II. in Att., one who plays a part on the stage, actor.
    OUTLAWED BY PETER:

    Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 2 Pe.1:20

    Epilusis (g1955) ep-il'-oo-sis; from 1956; explanation, i.e. application: - interpretation.

    Epiluo (g1956) ep-ee-loo'-o; from 1909 and 3089; to solve further, i.e. (fig.) to explain, decide: - determine, expound.

Outlawed: Organum Vitr. 10, 1.--Of musical instruments, a pipe,. Gen. 4, 21; id. 2 Par. 34, 12 et saep.--Of hydraulic engines, an organ, water-organ: organa hydraulica,
    Gen 4:21 And his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.

    The Cainites were under SATAN and therefore using music to ENCHANT people out of their own property. These were the Jerusalem Kenites to whom Jesus called the sons of the DEVIL

    H8610 manipulate, figuratively to use unwarrantably:--catch, handle, (lay, take) hold (on, over), stop, X surely, surprise, take.

    H8608 taphaph to drum, that is, play (as) on the tambourine:taber, play with timbrels.

    H8611 tôpheth to'-feth From the base of H8608 ; a smiting, that is, (figuratively) contempt:--tabret. MEANING HELL
Outlawed: Modulatio. In partic., a rhythmical measure, modulation; hence, singing and playing, melody, in poetry and music, Quint. 9, 4, 139: modulatione produci aut corripi (verba), id. 9, 4, 89 : modulatio pedum, id. 1, 6, 2 : scenica, id. 11, 3, 57 : vocis, melody, id. 11, 3, 59 : musica, Aus. Ep. 25, 13 .
    People have never been fooled: they knew that ALL kinds of music were for ENTERTAINMENT ONLY. Amos denies that it has any ABIDING value. However, musica also meant SORCERY (Rev 18:) because people could be CHARMED (Grace word) out of their pants and money: "Spin a top and blow the flute and fleece the fat heads and simpletons" says Lucian of Samosata.

    Clement of Alexandria: "After having paid reverence to the discourse about God, they leave within [at church] what they have heard. And outside they foolishly amuse themselves with impious playing, and amatory quavering (feminine vibrato), occupied with flute-playing, and dancing, and intoxication, and all kinds of trash.
If YOUR misleaders decide to VIOLATE the example of Jesus, the direct OUTLAWING by Paul and the understanding of the church for about 400 years (for singing and preaching), then they INTEND to FLASH the MARK which is known to sow discord to drive away the owners to make way for 'a theater for holy entertainment' as confessed at Madison.

I simply DO NOT believe that you can use that persona as an ATTRACTANT and appeal to any spiritual believers. That means that you will build a body of look-alikes. The task of the Locusts or Muses under Apollyon in John's Revelation specificially points to COLLECTING people with THAT MARK and driving away those marked with the Word.

 
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Ken Sublett
(no login)
66.82.9.91

Just as PROPHESIED of Lucifer (ZOE) Masculo-feminine.

August 26 2006, 1:35 PM 

NOT TO FORGET THAT THEY BOAST ABOUT HAVING LOTS OF LIPSCOMB PROFESSORS!

The feminists and lesbian theologians who have TAKEN CAPTIVE the Methodists and other worship SOPHIA/ZOE as Goddess worship. Rubel Shelly and John York have a take off in their REIMAGING the church. They claim to have NEW GLASSES through which they get visions.

The ZOE or "mother of the Gods" is the prophecy of the end time MOTHER OF HARLOTS. John says of her speakers, singers and musicians that they are SORCERERS.

Having a feminists DO the gospel of Judas is a MARK of the SECT of Cainites or Orphites or SERPENT WORSHIPERS. Jude points to The Book of Enoch to show FOR WHOM God will come with ten thousand angels to EXECUTE judgment on the UNGODLY. Enoch and others show how SATAN caused the Fall by using the JUBAL character (who handled instruments without authority) to form mixed-sex choirs, use instruments and all of the seductive power of women. This authority is AUTHENTIA which is both erotic and murderous. The Mother of Harlots needs a name.
    Some have identified the Ophites with the false teachers denounced in the Epistle of Jude as filthy dreamers, who "defile the flesh, and set at naught dominion, and rail at dignities," who "went in the way of Cain, and ran riotously in the error of Balaam for hire, and perished in the gainsaying of Korah," as "wandering stars, for whom the blackness of darkness has been reserved forever." The resemblance is certainly very striking, and those heretics may have been the forerunners of the Ophites of the second century.
The book of Enoch identifies the YOUTHFUL type of Jubal, Jabal, Tubal-Cain and Naamah (the enchantress) as having been USED by Satan. He tought them how to form choirs, use instruments, use seductive clothing and to seduce the SETHITES away from the Living Word. It is the MUSICAL DECEIVERS for who God comes to execute judment because they are CAINITES or KENITES. Isaiah 30 defines HELL as specificially prepared for drive the MUSICAL SORCERERS back into hell to the beat of the same instruments Lucifer brought into the garden of Eden.
    A book entitled "the Gospel of Judas" was circulated among them.
Hesoid could have been the source for John's definiton of the Babylon Harlot in Revelation 17-18. She USES speakers, singers, musicians and ALL unholy "staff infection" and John identifies them as SORCERERS. The OPHIS points to the sOPHISts or the serpents or musical enchanters in Eden. Lucifer or ZOE is called the "singing and harp playing prostitue" who stole your money AND your souls. Satan is really SHEtan and Paul more than we do when warning about EVE who was wholly seduced and gave birth to that wicked one, Cain meaning "a musical Mark." The MUSES are the LOCUSTS under Apollo or Abaddon or Apollyon:
    the Muses of Olympus, daughters of Zeus who holds the aegis:

    (ll. 26-28) `Shepherds of the wilderness, wretched things of shame, mere bellies, we know how to speak many false things as though they were true; but we know, when we will, to utter true things.'

    (ll. 29-35) So said the ready-voiced daughters of great Zeus, and they plucked and gave me a rod,

    a shoot of sturdy laurel, a marvellous thing,
    and breathed into me a divine voice
    to celebrate things that shall be and things there were aforetime;and they bade me sing of the race of the blessed gods that are eternally,

    but ever to sing of themselves both first and last.

Sophia is called the SERPENT and ZOE (Lucifer) is called the BEAST and the female instructing principle. They force the little dumb patriarchal Jehovah to form musical worship teams to WORSHIP SOPHIA AND ZOE. It is not possible to worship God when Sophia-Zoe are bring "menstrual fluid" into the pulpit and among the new Gnostic ALSO into the communion wine. Don't DRINK out of any otter polluted pool.

Chapter XXX.-Doctrines of the Ophites and Sethians.

1. Others, again, portentously declare that there exists, in the power of Bythus, a certain primary light, blessed, incorruptible, and infinite: this is the Father of all, and is styled the first man.

They also maintain that his Ennoea, going forth from him, produced a son, and that this is the son of man-the second man. Below these, again, is the Holy Spirit, and under this superior spirit the elements were separated from each other, viz., water, darkness, the abyss, chaos, above which they declare the Spirit was borne, calling him the first woman.
    Afterwards, they maintain, the first man, with his son, delighting over the beauty of the Spirit-that is,
      of the woman-and shedding light upon her,

      begat by her an incorruptible light, the third male, whom they call Christ,-the son of the first and second man,

      and of the Holy Spirit, the first woman.
2. The father and son thus both had intercourse with the woman (whom they also call the mother of the living) [Eve, ZOE]. When, however, she could not bear nor receive into herself the greatness of the lights,
    they declare that she was filled to repletion, and became ebullient on the left side;

    and that thus their only son Christ, as belonging to the right side, and ever tending to what was higher,

    was immediately caught up with his mother to form an incorruptible Aeon. This constitutes the true and holy Church, which has become the appellation, the meeting together, and the union of the father of all, of the first man, of the son, of the second man, of Christ their son, and of the woman who has been mentioned.
3. They teach, however, that the power which proceeded from the woman by ebullition, being besprinkled with light, fell downward from the place occupied by its progenitors, yet possessing by its own will that besprinkling of light; and it they call Sinistra, Prunicus, and Sophia, as well as masculo-feminine.

 
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Jimmy Joe
(no login)
68.52.126.244

Question?

August 27 2006, 10:59 PM 

Mr.Sublett,
A short and to the point question. As you seem to consider yourself an intelligent man, does the word loquacious mean anything to you?

 
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Ken Sublett
(no login)
69.19.14.30

Answer

August 28 2006, 8:01 PM 

Mostly what I quoted was not MY WORDS. But, I do tend to try to shame the preachercator and sangacator who do their "clap clap clap e de clapp" 20 times and say "je Zeus" (hail Zeus) for being what Peter called your common adulterers. The one who CORRUPTS the Word is one who MAKES A TRADE or HAWKS HIS WARES from group to group or PEDDLES WORS AT RETAIL. There is NO hope for such people who are ACTING UP in end time prophecy where the speakers, singers and musicians are called by John just your ordinary SORCERS or WITCHES. That is the MARK that the candles HAVE BEEN BLOWN and will never be relit.

There are NO saddles on the school of the Bible and the ONE ANOTHER are commanded to speak "that which is written" or 'scripture' to be a SCHOOL OF THE BILBE and to leave NO ROOM for the SELF-PLEASERS to get your goat and money. These are all called HYPOCRITES whom Jesus defined by quoting prophecy as "speakers, singers and instrument players."

Now, loquacious is the DIRECT COMMAND for the NOT REMOTELY SANGING passages the scam artist use fleece the widows and honest working people. Here is Ephesians 5 in Latin:

Eph 5: [19]WEB loquentes vobismet ipsis in psalmis et hymnis et canticis spiritalibus cantantes et psallentes in cordibus vestris Domino

Loquor is defined for the EKKLESIA or SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE: Only perverts ever held WORSHIP SERVICES (hard bondage) and Jesus FIRED THEM

1. [Sanscr. lap-, to talk, whisper; , to speak, talk, say (in the lang. of common life, in the tone of conversation;

A. To speak, declare, show, indicate or express clearly


Now, we have the METHOD as a direct command and we KNOW that the content for a school of the BIBLE is the BIBLE "as it has been written." Isn't that amazing that one who has fled Babbling Babylon can know that and SHARE it with people: Would piney let a young girl be raped in the middle of the street? Does Piney have the right to speak WHAT Jesus exampled and Paul commanded and the church practiced: No singing as an ACT until about the year 400 TOO LATE, TOO LATE and was added by non-Christian Bishops.

Since Otter is up a creek without a tail studying the Didache, they should understand that NONE of these documents allows any MONEY for vagrant preachers or for second-ask alms.

Didache CHAPTER 5
5:1 But the path of death is this. First of all, it is evil, and full of cursing; there are found murders, adulteries, lusts, fornication, thefts, idolatries, soothsaying, SORCERERS, robberies, false witnessings, hypocrisies, double-mindedness, CRAFT, pride, malice, self-will, covetousness, filthy talking, jealousy, audacity, pride, arrogance;


When speaking the WORD the FACTS which stream out of happy valley is:

Logik-os, ( [logos] )

A. of or for speaking or speech, merê l. the organs of speech, Plu.Cor.38: logikê, hê, speech, OPPOSITE TO MOUSIKE


SPEAKING in the EKKLESIA is the OPPOSITE of MUSIC.

Speaking to Paul means SPEAKING as in the word SPEAKING

The SINGING and MELODY was in the HEART which is the only place God even LOOKS for our worship. Jesus PURCHASED our right to worship in OUR SPIRIT. Paul said that the Jews now worshipped in THE spirit because OUTSIDE there be DOGS. These were the male prostitutes lurking like wolves seeking someone to devour by singing theirwhining and howling tunes.

Why should someone get so upset because SOMEONE ELSE has to try to rescue his kin?

It is a fact that Isaiah 30 discloses FOR WHOM God prepared HELL: He beats them into it with music. THAT is because you CANNOT perform without falling under the definiton by Jesus of a HYPOCRITE. By pointing to Isaiah and Ezekiel He identified the hypocrites as "speakers, singers and instrument players."

 
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Another OC Member
(no login)
167.219.0.140

Re: Otter Creek Church: a Community Church?

August 28 2006, 10:05 AM 

I'll say the same thing I said over in the Otter Creek thread on the MoreChurches side of things.

Otter Creek is posting the sermons on their website at http://www.ottercreek.org/ministers_sermons.php

The current series is Family Matters and it should explain/confirm/disavow any thinking or presumptions you might have made.

So far the sermons have been:

July 16, 2006 - Family Matters
Who is Otter Creek? / What We Believe document (pdf)

July 23, 2006 - Family Matters
A Theology of Membership

July 30, 2006 - Family Matters
The Purpose of Membership

August 6, 2006 - Family Matters
You and Your Shepherds

August 13, 2006 - Family Matters
What We Believe About Baptism

August 20, 2006 - Family Matters
Worship Anchors and Boundaries

August 27, 2006 - Family Matters
Otter Creek and Your Marriage

If you're not actually going to go to the church, or call one of the ministers or a member to find out more about it, then listen to this series.


 
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Donnie Cruz
(no login)
72.154.211.14

Otter Creek—is it OR is it not a Community Church?

August 30 2006, 3:21 AM 

Hello, Another—

I’m curious as to why the reference to yourself as being “Another OC Member.” Besides whom?

It appears that a church’s website tells much about its teachings and practices. Is Rick Warren’s philosophy studied and taught at OC … his 40-day something, his purpose-driven books or manual, etc.? Is instrumental music a specialty in the assembly? I don’t know; I’m not sure—would you inform us?

What’s going on? The subject “Family Matters” that you mentioned is on the front page:

    ”We'll be spending a few weeks here at the end of the summer to talk about some "Family Matters"--who we are as a church, what we believe, what it means to be a member, what kind of relationship we hope to have with each other. We've been talking about these ideas with new members, but the elders thought it would be a good idea to talk about them with the entire church ... just so we're all on the same page ... just so we all know. The sermons are available on the sermon page--if you want to catch up.”

What really caught my attention was this part of the statement, “…but the elders thought it would be a good idea to talk about them with the entire church ... just so we're all on the same page ...” I’m just wondering what prompted the “but” remark.

Perhaps, you would want to respond to what may be a wrong impression or perception of Otter Creek and its leanings.

Thanks!

Donnie

 
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Another OC Member
(no login)
167.219.0.140

Re: Otter Creek—is it OR is it not a Community Church?

August 30 2006, 9:02 AM 

I'm "Another OC Member," simply to differentiate between myself and the OC Member in the MoreChurches side of things...

As to your other questions, I respond simply for information.

Is Rick Warren’s philosophy studied and taught at OC … his 40-day something, his purpose-driven books or manual, etc.?

It has not been studied by the church at large, or by a particular class. Individual small groups might have and individual members have.

Is instrumental music a specialty in the assembly?

Not in the Sunday morning assembly. On Sunday nights and Wednesday nights? Yes. This is primarily out of devotion to our heritage in the Church of Christ, not because of some determination of sinfulness within the practice. I would recommend listening to "Worship Anchors and Boundaries" for a much more detailed explanation of the thinking behind this.

What really caught my attention was this part of the statement, “…but the elders thought it would be a good idea to talk about them with the entire church ... just so we're all on the same page ...” I’m just wondering what prompted the “but” remark.

There is a new/perspective members class called Foundations where much of the material in this current series is covered. The elders thought it would be good for the entire congregation to here where they and the ministers stood on these subjects, so they asked Tim Woodroof to preach a series on these subjects, as you can see from the entire statement:

We've been talking about these ideas with new members, but the elders thought it would be a good idea to talk about them with the entire church ... just so we're all on the same page ... just so we all know.

Again, I would recommend listening to the sermons, particularly "Who is Otter Creek?" That will give you a clearer idea.

As far as the "wrong idea," rumors and innuendo spread very quickly. Less about actions because those are pretty apparent, but primarily about motivations. I just would rather people really do the full amount of research into somewhere rather than just making assumptions.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(no login)
72.150.117.208

“Our heritage in the church of Christ”?

September 1 2006, 3:58 AM 

Hello, Another—

Thank you for the response.

Would you explain the following statement regarding instrumental music?

    “Not in the Sunday morning assembly. On Sunday nights and Wednesday nights? Yes. This is primarily out of devotion to our heritage in the Church of Christ, not because of some determination of sinfulness within the practice.”

What exactly is “primarily out of devotion to our heritage in the Church of Christ”? I really don’t understand the way you expressed “our heritage.” I also take it that the elders have determined for the church that there is no sinfulness in the practice of using instruments in the gathering on Sunday nights and Wednesday nights, but that there is so in the Sunday morning assembly?

Is the practice to use musical instruments in the night assemblies going to be the same practice in the Sunday morning assembly sometime soon? How long has IM been in use at OC? You may have heard of what happened at OH [Oak Hills] in San Antonio, TX. The elders of the church there approved the use of IM in one of its smaller worship assemblies, but not long after that, IM became the full-blown “norm” in all of its services.

Will you keep us updated if or when IM begins participating in the Sunday A.M. assembly?

When there is a strong leader whose alignment is with the Change or pseudo- or half-baked Charismatic Movement, such as Tim Woodroof of O.C. or Max Lucado of O.H., conservative members of the church become concerned.

Would you let us know where the ministers and elders stand on the purpose of baptism—is it “because one has believed and his sins already forgiven” or is it “in order to receive forgiveness in His blood"? I mentioned this in my initial post.

There are really more questions.

Perhaps you can tell us what other changes there are in doctrine, teachings and beliefs espoused by the ministers and elders at OC—when compared to what has been learned and taught for ages from the Holy Scripture.

In your opinion, does OC resemble a typical congregation in the brotherhood or does it resemble a Community Church—if you know of one or have been affiliated with one at all?

Donnie

 
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Another OC Member
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68.52.39.117

Re: “Our heritage in the church of Christ”?

September 3 2006, 11:32 PM 

Donnie, you asked

Would you explain the following statement regarding instrumental music?

    “Not in the Sunday morning assembly. On Sunday nights and Wednesday nights? Yes. This is primarily out of devotion to our heritage in the Church of Christ, not because of some determination of sinfulness within the practice.”

What exactly is “primarily out of devotion to our heritage in the Church of Christ”? I really don’t understand the way you expressed “our heritage.” I also take it that the elders have determined for the church that there is no sinfulness in the practice of using instruments in the gathering on Sunday nights and Wednesday nights, but that there is so in the Sunday morning assembly?


Let's put it like this. The OC elders have determined through study of Scripture that there is nothing sinful in using instruments in worship. However, there are people who attend at OC who find it uncomfortable. Out of respect to that and to the heritage we have in the Churches of Christ, we do not use them on Sunday mornings.

You also said

Is the practice to use musical instruments in the night assemblies going to be the same practice in the Sunday morning assembly sometime soon? How long has IM been in use at OC? You may have heard of what happened at OH [Oak Hills] in San Antonio, TX. The elders of the church there approved the use of IM in one of its smaller worship assemblies, but not long after that, IM became the full-blown “norm” in all of its services.

Will you keep us updated if or when IM begins participating in the Sunday A.M. assembly?

When there is a strong leader whose alignment is with the Change or pseudo- or half-baked Charismatic Movement, such as Tim Woodroof of O.C. or Max Lucado of O.H., conservative members of the church become concerned.


IM has been in use at OC in one form or another for years, but never on Sunday mornings. I doubt it ever will, but I welcome the day when such things are no longer an issue.

Would you let us know where the ministers and elders stand on the purpose of baptism—is it “because one has believed and his sins already forgiven” or is it “in order to receive forgiveness in His blood"? I mentioned this in my initial post.

I'm pretty sure it's the former rather than the latter. That was given in the What we Believe about Baptism sermon.

Perhaps you can tell us what other changes there are in doctrine, teachings and beliefs espoused by the ministers and elders at OC—when compared to what has been learned and taught for ages from the Holy Scripture.

Most, if not all, members at OC would contend that what happens there is completely Scriptural.

In your opinion, does OC resemble a typical congregation in the brotherhood or does it resemble a Community Church—if you know of one or have been affiliated with one at all?

I've never attended another Church of Christ other than OC, so I cannot answer that question with any authority.

++++++++++++++++++
FYI: Editing of source code did not change the text of the above post


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 70.157.34.131 on Sep 4, 2006 12:59 AM


 
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Zoe
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209.40.150.214

Help

August 30 2006, 12:05 PM 


Mr. Cruz & Mr. Sublett,

Each of you has a church and a faith that is yours. Our job is to attack the devil, not other Christians, their faith and practice.

I want to ask each of a you a question that I would appreciate an HONEST reply to:

How manypeople have you baptized in the past year?
5 Years?
10 Years?

How many churches and specific Christians have you attacked and criticized in that time? How many negative postings about other members of the church have you made in that time?

Will God look at these numbers in your life and say, "Well done, good and faithful servant?"


 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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66.217.125.37

Re: Help

September 1 2006, 4:20 PM 

What I infer from Zoe's post is that the number of people that we personally baptize in our lifetime will determine whether we are admitted into heaven. Of course, Zoe doesn't state what that specific, minimum number is, but surely there must be a magic number, or else s/he would not have mentioned it.

So let's ask Zoe the same question: How many people has s/he baptized by immersion for remission of sins and salvation (Mark 16:16 KJV) in his/her lifetime? Is this number sufficient to enter heaven? If not, how many baptisms are required before Zoe can enter heaven? And if Zoe has already met the required "quota" of baptisms that s/he implies is necessary to enter heaven, will s/he stop, sit back on his/her haunches, and revel in his/her own personal righteousness?

 
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Lee Gullism
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172.128.77.157

Wrong Again

September 2 2006, 12:05 PM 


Dr. Crump,
You obviously (and predictably) missed Zoe's point.

The point isn't, "You have to baptize a certain NUMBER of people to be righteous" but "You (talking to Donnie & Ken- but go ahead and throw yourself in if you'd like), YOU, spend a lot of time and energy tearing down the church and tearing down souls amd tearing down the Kingdom. How much time have you spent building it up?"

You are not called to fight about instruments etc... In fact, you are specifically called NOT to fight about that kind of stuff. What you are also called to, is to baptize people.

I would say that Zoe is just asking a legitimate question, and I think the answer is embarrasing, and that's why there has not been an answer.

As long as we're asking, Dr. Crump, how many people have YOU baptized this year? The past 5? 10?

I'll save you a post. I already know you will answer the question with a question (which is rude). "How many people have YOU baptized Lee?" As soon as you answer, I will.

P.S.- My answer will surprise you.

 
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Ken Sublett
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69.19.14.39

Or: Apollo Seeker Center with Muses?

August 30 2006, 12:14 PM 

Sorry for you: what you describe is a pagan seeker center originated by Apollo or Apollyon at Delphi. His "musical worship team" were the MUSES. In Revelation 17 they work for the MOTHER GODDESS--Zoe and they naturally worship the MOTHER GODDESS whatever the sex. Jesus HIDE the spirit Word from the Scribes, Pharisees and hypocrites. By quoting Isaiah and Ezekiel he MARKED the hypocrite as "speakers, singers and musicians" who work for WAGES. Peter called the corrupters of the Word ADULTERERS who "sold the word at RETAIL."

Paul identified the sects in Rome and EXCLUDED their diversities from discourse in the church. He goes immediately into Romans 15 and defines what you MUST do to be an ekklesia or synagogue of Christ which has NOT staff infection.

The REST Jesus died to give us is FROM "spiritual anxiety created by religious rituals." All performance speaking and singing AROUSE mental excitement. REST or PAU directly commands: "Stop the preaching, STOP the singing, stopTHE MUSIC" and stop the PANic. This is named after the perverted half man/goat as the BEAST (Zoe) in Revelation.

Jesus knew and Paul outlawed this as SELF-PLEASURING which is "virtual adultery" where the AROUSER engages you in a sexual-like climax with God (Carol Wimber, Vineyard, aka New Wineskins). Therefore, Paul OUTLAWED this for the FOOLS just trying to FOOL others as ADULTERERS who traffic in the Word. That was the original sin of LUCIFER or ZOE who is called "the singing and harp playing prostitute" even in the garden of Eden. The ZOE concept is the same old EVE or INANNA perverting the WORD of God to get you, like Adam, to EAT of the tree: Ezekiel 31 says that the Assyrians were the TALLEST tree in eden. The church is to BEAR BURDENS and NOT impose them to FLEECE the widows and honest working people: Woe, Woe says Amos!
    Rom 15:1 WE then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves
The weak and infirm in Rome would NOT be able to tolerate the SPIRITUAL ANXIETY aroused by the MUSICAL practices of the Dionysiacs and Orphics who had been regulated long ago because those who did suc worship DID IT IN THE NIGHT.

The OUTLAWING of SELF-pleasing which silences the pleasing FOR edification or education is the Greek:
    Aresko (g700) ar-es'-ko; prob. from 142 (through the idea of exciting emotion); to be agreeable (or by impl. to seek to be so): - please.

    Airo (g142) ah'ee-ro; a prim. verb; to lift; by impl. to take up or away; fig. to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind); spec. to sail away (i.e. weigh anchor); by Heb. [comp. 5375] to expiate sin: - away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).

Now the corrupting SINGERS and PREACHERS get HIRED because they can excite the crowd (Philo called it enthus O mania: the madness of Corinth) because they TELL you that the gods (demons) are near and ALL such claims causes a subconscience PANIC.

Why shouldn't you see the MASSING of "scholars" as a judgmental sign when they have to be terminally ignorantor terminally EVIL to help seduce you and a university into the end time Harlot Worship where the SINGERS, speakers and musicians work for the MOTHER HARLOT and John calls them SORCERERS. This is the MARK that the CANDLES (seven spirits of Christ) have BEEN removed.

This had the same meaning of EXTERNAL SINGING:
    Aoidê 1. art of song, autar aoidên thespesiên, SPELL, incantation, thing sung, song, whether of joy or sorrow,

    Aeidô sing,.hence of all kinds of vocal sounds, crow as cocks, hoot as owls, croak as frogs,; hoi tettiges chamothen aisontai, crowing too soon.

    The tettiges are the LOCUSTS which are the MUSES serving Apollo, Abaddon or Apollyo

It is a well known fact that SINGING and pretending to bring you TO the gods always produced motral fear of panic: however, like bungee jumping, it produced DRUGS which ive you a THRILL. This has the LITERATURE meaning of:
    Areskos
    A. pleasing, mostly in bad sense, obsequious, cringing,
    II. areskos, ho, the staff borne by pornoboskoi [brothel keeper] on the stage,

ALL of the singers and players and ACTORS were known as prostitutes on and off the "stage."

The PLEASING preacher is called a HYPOCRITE: all who PERFORM religion are condemned by Jesus as Hypocrits. Those who CHANGE the Word to make it PLEASING and "worth" more BRIBE are called PHARISEES. Those who WRITE non-Biblical songs and sermons are called SCRIBES.
    Arist.EN1108a28 Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics book 2

    [13] In respect of pleasantness and social amusement, the middle character is witty and the middle disposition Wittiness; the excess is Buffoonery and its possessor a buffoon;


    LOVE to pay for PREACHER JOKES which Gallup says are 80% LIES? Why do preachers and singers JOKE? They know that they can DISABLE your rational mind so you just SUCK up junk theology.

    the deficient man may be called boorish, and his disposition Boorishness. In respect of general pleasantness in life, the man who is pleasant in the proper manner is friendly, and the observance of the mean is Friendliness; he that exceeds, if from no interested motive, is obsequious, if for his own advantage, a flatterer; he that is deficient, and unpleasant in all the affairs of life, may be called quarrelsome and surly.
Paul, as ALL of the Bible and church history identify those who SELL the free water of the Word as ADULTERERSS. Because Isaiah 48 shows WHY God hides the truth from PhDuhs and "traffickers" of the Word we know why Jesus spoke to the CLERGY only in parables so that they would not catch on. When they PRESUME to be skilled enough to SELL watered wine God sends them strong delusions or WRATH and makes a fool out of them. Those OF TRUTH laugh and Hiss them out (the meaning of HAND CLAPPING) but being FOOLS they think that even God is laughing WITH them:
    2 Cor 2:17 For we are not as
    MANY, which
    CORRUPT
    the WORD of God:
    but as of sincerity,
    but as OF God,
    in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

Now, if you have to SERMONIZE the Word (and pervert it as I listen to bits of pieces) and DO NOT "teach that which HAS BEEN WRITTEN and AS it has been delivered is--by DEFINITION--one of the MANY who DO NOT speak the word OF GOD and are HYPOCRITES (not sincere) BECAUSE they CORRUPT the Word. What MEANS that word?
    Kapeleuo (g2585) kap-ale-yoo'-o; from kapelos , (a huckster); to retail, i.e. (by impl.) to adulterate (fig.): - corrupt

    kapêl-euô ,A. to be a retail-dealer, drive a petty trade

    2. metaph., k. ta prêgmata, of Darius, sell learning by RETAIL, hawk it about, Pl. Prt.313d; k. ton logon tou theou 2 Ep.Cor.2.17 i. e. fight half-heartedly, A.Th. 545; k. têi Chariti tên amoibên Epicur. k. tên politeian traffic in grants of citizenship [church MEMBERSHIPS] of prostitutes, Ph.2.394,576; eirênên pros Rhômaious Chrusiou k. Hdn.6.7.9; tuchê kapêleuousa . . ton bion [ZOE] playing tricks with LIFE, corrupting it,


    The Grace Only Concept identifies FAVORS granted to a male

    Charis. 4. love-charm, philtre 2. esp. in erotic sense, of favours granted
    Worship of demons: V. daimonôn charis homage due to them, their worship, majesty,

Isn't it interesting that the FOOLS (Paul's concept) being FOOLED are warned in Romans 10 and 1 Cor 10 as BULL or DEMON WORSHIPERS because they still PLAY just as they did in Musical idolatry at Mount Sinnai? This was MUSICAL IDOLALTRY which always perverts as Romans 1 defines it.

And yet, the the PhDuhs flock around because Jesus said that "doctors of the law take away the key to knowledge" (the seven SPIRIT of Christ).

I may have to tell you about the PLAY they tried on Jesus and the PLAY being performed in the Holy Places CLAIMING to "lead you into the presence of God" and therefore ARE the abomination of Desolation defined in Maccabees as by MUSIC and real or VIRTUAL sexuality.

God says WHY pay money for what is NOT bread? If Jesus paid it all then WHY are you such a SUPERIOR CREATURE that you PAY someone to CORRUPT the water? If you are performing the LAW OF SINGING then you are several centuries too late for the church: this was added by Bishops who were not even Christians "because it was common to all pagan CULTS." If you are doing the ACT of listening to a SERMON you are just as late that being one of the hearly divisive heresies. If you are practicing THE LAW OF GIVING then you are thieves and Robbers.

Therefore, the ONLY way you can FINANCE these many corrupters who have to keep your HEED on them as they suck up your money and time, is to ROB the widows and honest working people. The assembly (synagogue) ASSEMBLED themselves to rest and read and take the Lord's Supper. Then THEY DISassembled THEMSELVES and the assembly ceases to exist--literate 101a. As in the civil Ekklesia they elected a CONTACT MAN each year to make sure the group kept in contact. Romans 14 EXCLUDES from the AREA OF INFLUENCE the private money and time of the WORKING PEOPLE and calls them into assembly to SPEAK that which is written using ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH. This was to EDUCATE, comfort with the SCRIPTURES (only), Glorify God and KEEP THE UNITY.

Why WON'T one of thes PhDuhs DEFEND in writing what they ENDORSE by attending NOT-churches? Well, we KNOW, don't we? If they OUTED their agenda they would NOT be good vipers. Plato warns that "when the MUSIC CHANGES it means that the LAWS are being changed: and you have to do it GRADUALLY at first and call it entertainment." History notes that THEATERS which were often outlawed were BUILT as TEMPLES or "seeker centers." Isn't that as slick as a salted slug. But, "shall He find faith when He returns?" No, almost none and it will be OUTSIDE the CENTERS suffering reproaches (from the churches) with Christ.

 
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Ken Sublett
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66.82.9.80

Or? The prophesied END-TIME Circe?

August 31 2006, 10:56 AM 

The Bible defines the BEGINNING fall from grace involving EVE: Eve in the Greek is ZOE. The FINAL FALL from Grace has John identifying the "babylon harlot religion" where the speakers, singers, musicians and ALL religious operatives are SORCERERS. Why is it evil to DEFINE that which no PhDuh knows about to show that John was speaking for perhaps ALL periods when the "laity" falls under the spell of NICO. The TRINITY worshipped with music caused THE FALL at Mount Sinai.
    "Demophon, the favourite of Sophocles, once kept as his mistress, when he himself was still young, the 'she-goat' Nico, although she was older. She was nicknamed She-goat because she had once devoured that tall lover, Greensprout Thallus;
    Capella (a she goat), II. Addicted to pleasure; luxurious, voluptuous; and subst., a voluptuary, a wanton. 1. Spoiled with indulgence, delicate, dainty, effeminate,

Shame, shame, shame: while our 6 Billion in the world will grow to 10 billion before the boy singers die, those who EAT, DRINK AND MAKE MARY are perfect models of the end-time Babylon Whore in Revelation 18:22. Those who have taken you captive are using your for their fun and profit. The MARK. Lucifer as "the singing and harp-playing prostitute in the garden of Eden and INCARNATING the king of Tyre stole MONEY and SOULS using singers and instrumentalists. Lucifer is Zoe is Eve in the Genesis "model" and in the Revelation 18 "model." Her speakers, singers and musicians perform SORCERY and this MARKS the candles being removed. At the same time there is NO FUNDING for the TRUE evangelists who has a GO BUTTON: check your's out.

Jesus died to remove the BURDENS and the BURDEN LADERS. The burden is defined just like all paganism as "spiritual anxiety created by religious rituals." The word REST is dedicated to meaning STOP the rhetoric, the singing, the instruments and ALL "worship" rituals which PRETEND to expose people directly to a deity.
    Those who impose such rituals are the Warren Jeffs and use the same "fear" tactics that you need the STAFF to as mediums you you can speak forth to God (sermon notes).

    No office in the ekklesia has the authority and FUNDING to hire additional staff who have to keep you busy all week to JUSTIFY their work. They are OPPRESSORS and not ministers:Paul commanded Timothy to LABOR so that he could practice the Agape meaning to feed the poor each morning.
There is no LAW OF SINGING much less a "musical minister" in the ekklesia or school of the Bible: the texts EXCLUDE it by the word SPEAK, and One to Another, and "that which is written."
    Those who insist that you are under a law to do professonal-grade MUSIC and deny the songs and sermons of Christ the only Spirit, are Jim Jones who force you to drink something worse than KoolAid.

    The word NOMOS as in "legalist" points directly to the OWED songs and music to Apollo or the Apollyon using the MUSES who were prostitutes and sorcers.
Those who push TITHING deny the work of the cross and pretend that they are PRIESTS and the institution owns INCOME from your work are legalistic oppressors. Pushing the LAW OFGIVING fromthe poor TO the able-bodied males is ANTI-Biblical, ANTI-Christian and ANTI-church history. Again, CORRUPTING the word is making a PROFESSION out of it. In order to fool the fools the Word has to be DOCTORED and that defines the Pharisees. The Scribes REwrite the WORD and songs in ORDER to have CRIPPLED LAMBS to sell so they DON'T have to work. The SECTARIAN Hypocrites then PERMORM the pagan ritual and Jesus identified as Hypocrites "speakers, singers and musicians."
    kapêl-euô , A. to be a retail-dealer, drive a petty trade... kapêleu' drive a trade, chaffer with your vegetable food Hdt.1.155
The word ADULTERY and KLEPTO is associated with this verse. The concept of arousal singing to produce the outlawed PLEASURING is also connected with KLEPTOMANIA by the "heretics" who LIFT YOU UP to carry you away for THEIR OWN PLEASURES.

Notice that SINGING and PLAYING is always associated with the EFFEMINATE and always associated with COMMERCE or MERCHANDISING!
    Hdt.1.155 Heredotus: Cyrus told how to take the FIGHT out of the enemy: [4] But pardon the Lydians, and give them this command so that they not revolt or pose a danger to you: send and forbid them to possess weapons of war,
      and order them to wear tunics under their cloaks
      and knee-boots on their feet,
      and to teach their sons lyre-playing [kitharizein]
      and song [psallein] and dance
    and shop-keeping [huckstering].
    And quickly, O king,

      you shall see them become WOMEN instead of men,
      so that you need not fear them, that they might revolt."
That proves that Satan us using the neutered performers to neuter the church: you will notice that it ALWAYS takes TWO WORDS to include BOTH singing AND playing an instrument.
    [4] Ludoisi wearing kithônas [chiton] kitharizein te kai psallein kai kapêleuein [prostitutes, petty trade, playing tricks, corrupting]

    Illudo to play at or with any thing, to sport with, amuse one's self with , 2. To sport or fool away a thing, i. e. to destroy or waste in sport; in mal. part., to violate, abuse B. To sport, dally, wanton (cf. "amorous play,")

    Jdg 19:25 But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go

    Ludo, to play for money, B. To play, sport, frisk, frolic, A. To sport, play with any thing, to practise as a pastime, amuse one's self with any thing, to play on an instrument of music, to make or compose music or song : Verg. E. 1, 10 puellae, id. Am. 3, 1, 27, B. To sport, dally, wanton (cf. "amorous play)

Like I always say as EVERYONE always says, the word PSALLO never includes an instrument unless the PLUCKING word is added and the NAME of the instruments.
    And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness
      against the sorcerers, and
      against the adulterers, and
      against false swearers, Malachi 3:5a
John identifies the speakers, singers and musicians as working for the "Babylon whore" and calls them sorcerers. These sorcerers are the same SERPENT in the garcen who was a Musical Enchanter: Eve ATE of the "tallest TREE in Eden."

The TITHE was NEVER taken from the wage earners: Only if the PASTOR gives one a farm does he have the right to demand 10% of the RENT of that free farm ONCE a year. Amos connects MUSIC and the tithe DAILY while the modern OPPRESSOR wants it once a week. If you work for a WAGE you do not own ONE PENNY to the lazy pastor. None of the "theaters for holy entertainment" could ever happen with true free will giving.
    H3784 kashaph kaw-shaf' A primitive root; properly to whisper a spell, that is, to inchant or practise magic :sorcerer, (use) witchcraft).

    The SERPENT is:

    H5172 nachash naw-khash' A primitive root; properly to hiss, that is, whisper a (magic) spell; divine, enchanter
The singers, musicians and speakers in Revelation 18 are called SORCERERS. The word for the serpent is OPHIS or the sOPHISts. Look again as the HUCKSTERING concept
    kapêl-euô , 2. metaph., k. ta prêgmata, of Darius, Hdt.3.89; k. ta mathêmata sell learning by retail, hawk it about,
Again, Heredotus is quoted to make a point: a GOOD shepherd tries to SERVE the sheep but the evil shepherd finds a way TO CHARGE for ever service. How more dishonest can you be than to HUCKESTER the FREE WORD like a prostitute using MUSICIANS to seduce the fools?
    Heredotus 3 [3] In the reigns of Cyrus and Cambyses after him there was no fixed tribute, but payment was made in gifts. It is because of this fixing of tribute, and other similar ordinances, that the Persians called Darius the merchant, Cambyses the master, and Cyrus the father; for Darius made petty profit out of everything,
    and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages,
    the widow, and the fatherless,

    and that turn aside [pervert] the stranger from his right,
    and fear not me, saith the Lord of hosts. Malachi 3:5b

THE PRIESTS were the ones who were doing the ROBBING because they did not teach and work as vocational ministers.

Because the CLASS of temple builders deny the Word of God in the sense that those they take captive believe it, they have no reason NOT to turn the simple weekly "school of Christ" where any literate person can TRUMP preachers just by reading it as written. Not only are they NOT Bible Believers they repudiate Christ and Paul as suffering servants. What they have constructed is a CHURCH named after CIRCE the holy whore who used drugs and music to turn people into SWINE.

So, why should anyone gloat about how BIG and popular they are when Paul said that you will not find the KINGDOM unless you go OUTSIDE these massed meetings. MASS MEETINGS would be defined by John and Hitler as the wish to call for the ROCKS to fall on them and HIDE them from being "aliens and strangers in a hostile world."

 
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Ken Sublett
(no login)
66.82.9.84

Adding MUSIC means LEGALISTIC, SECTARIANS, PATTERNISTS

September 3 2006, 1:07 PM 

The Spirit of Christ commanded SPEAK or READ for the church in the Wilderness. Jesus stood up to READ in the synagogue and EXAMPLED the common decency of SITTING down and DIALOGING. Paul used the word SPEAK and said with ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH using THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN or Scripture. He said SPEAK (externally) and sing and make your HEART STINGS get plucked. The church NEVER sang because arousal SINGING was outlawed. The historic church NEVER sang but spoke the PSALMS and other material until Preachers and Songs were ADDED in about the year 400. Therefore, arousal singing AND instruments were added by the Catholics who confess that it WAS COMMON TO ALL PAGAN CULTS. That means that you ARE not a Christian group.

It is not possible for a misleader to be literate and not know the UNIVERSAL MARK of music with Lucifer-Zoe and the Mother Goddess Worship intended to SILENCE the SON of the FATHER. All history notes of arousal singing and playing instruments: "only females and effeminate males can fall into it." Bible literates knows that it was OUTLAWED for "the church in the wilderness" by the word TRIUMPH OVER, that law was obeyed in the synagogue and OUTLAWED by Paul's use of the SELF-PLEASING which word points specificially to ANYTHING which mental excitement."

I have to believe that promoters of such pagan worship are CHANGE AGENTS for an UNholy spirit. Singing and MUSIC was Lucifer/Zoe's eternal METHOD of silencing the Word of God: in heaven and the fallen angels, In the garden, with Jacob and Laban, at Sinai where music was the PRAYER to turn back (pervert) to paganism GRANTED by God and defined by Amos and Stephen, Job 21, Amos 5-9, Isaiah 5, Ezekiel 33 to which Jesus points along with Isaiah to identify HYPOCRITES (speakers, singers, musicians) and the end time same HARLOT whose singers are SORCERERS (John 17-18)

God says through Amos that the MUSICIANS take captive those FLEECED unlawfully by the priests led by their WIVES, that they hungered and thirsted for the Word of God but could not find it. God promised that the WIVES would be led by fishhooks in their nose into captivity and death. The SONGS in the temple would be HOWLING (praise singing) in that day: That is the MARK. And then God said I WILL NOT PASS THIS WAY AGAIN.
    Mike Armour:The non-instrumental position depended entirely on historical precedents from the first centuryand on inferences drawn from the handful of Biblical passages that mention music in the early church.
No one who has read the Bible could make that statement. From Genesis to Revelation the SOURCE of music in religion is Satan. Lucifer or Zoe was in the Garden of Eden as "the singing and harp playing prostitute." SHE/he came with WIND, STRING and PERCUSSION instruments. As Lucifer/Zoe he/she was the king/queen of Babylon. She/he would go back into hell with his HARPS and buried-alive harpists. She is the Babylon Whore in Revelation 18 and her singers, musicians, speakers and craftsmen (theater builders and stage managers) are called by John SORCERERS by which they DECEIVED the world just as Eve was deceived deceived SEXUALLY.

Isaiah 30 proves that HELL was prepared specificially for those who BLEED off WORSHIP due only to a SPIRIT God who cannot be seduced. The MARK or SIGNAL of that drive will be the use of WIND, STRING and PERCUSSION instruments. I THINK someone is being FOOLED and Paul confirmed that "fools love to be fooled.

http://www.piney.com/Isa30LXX.html

    Rubel Shelly: One of the things that makes us who we are is our distinctive musical heritage and practice.
Let's begin by defining the second error-teaching word slipped in which has a more judgmental taste when understood. Shelly does confess that our HERITAGE has the Bible and history on its side. That means that it CANNOT be our heritage if EVERYONE before us used common sense and DECENCY and did not MUSICATE in the face of a Holy God still speaking when the "elders" as the ONLY pastor-teachers reads or "teaches that which has been taught."

A God-Condemned SECTARIANISM added INSTRUMENTS mostly post Uncivil war. Because, this was a pagan HERITAGE documented in clay tablets 3,000 years older than Moses and ADDED to the common practice THAT defines HERESY or SECTARIAN. SOWING DISCORD is a sin BEYOND REDEMPTION.

Tabering (the source of Topheth or Solomon's Music Grove or Hell) is also translated as TO SPIT IN MY FACE by Job. Hand clapping means to VOMIT because it was HISSING for the LOSER and the Living Word and the Written Word is being HISSED out of the den: that needs no proving when you invent your own songs and sermons:
    Heritage: 1. Property that can be inherited. 2 (a) something handed down from one's ancestors or the past, as a characteristic, a culture, tradition, or (b) the rights, burdens, or status resulting from being born in a certain time or place. (Webster)
There is no religious use of INSTRUMENTS in the entiere Bible not connected to SATAN as the only source, prostitutes, sodomites, Warrior Levites under the DOOMED king and kingdom to create PANIC, loud noise as EXORCISM in the LIKE THE NATION'S temple built by Hiram the Masonic Architect JUST LIKE his own included numerous IDOLS: after all, the nation had been sentenced to captivity and death with the KINGS the leaders.

There is no church theologion who does not repudiate music based on CLEAR BIBLICAL commands and the fact that MUSIC, rhetoricians or ANYONE on the DOLE has NO role to play in the SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE.

There is NO literature written by those contemporaneous with the Bible which does not GRASP the meaning of CAIN as a MUSICAL NOTE and which does not blame SATAN for all religious music FOR WHICH God will come with ten thousands of His saints just like he came at MOUNT SINAI with a FIREY LAW
    It was the synagogues that remained after AD.70, NOT the Temple! The original purpose of the synagogue was primarily for Scripture-reading and exposition of the passages read (Lk.4:16-22; Mt.13:54; Mk.1:21-22; Jn.6:59).
That was the DIRECT COMMAND for the QAHAL or "church in the wilderness" where the SOUNDS were outlawed and a Holy Convocation meant to REST and READ and REHEARSE the WORD of the Living Word. Any competent elder would have it MEMORIZED as it was revealed. That what Jesus exampled and commanded, what Paul defined as synagogue in Romans 15 and all of the NOT SINGING passages, what Paul commanded Timothy and what the church practiced for centuries. There was NO SINGING as an act of worship or PREACHING until close to the 400's and THEN by bishops selected who were NOT Christians.
    So long as one's idea of worship is rooted in the Temple concept, one will crave "celebrations" and big displays. The charismatic style of worship naturally arises out of this false concept of the O.T. Temple.
The KING would select the YOUTH to make "instruments of Chariots" and run before the king to toot the commoners out of the path. This was a CURSE along with the king taking a TITHE of their property to give to his MINISTRY LEADERS. There is NO LAW OF TITHING and NO LAW OF GIVING. Therefore, those who MISLEAD you have fabricated a SEEKER CENTER well defined at Delphi where APOLLO (Abaddon or Apollyon) had his ORACLE. The MUSES or LOCUSTS were his musical worship team: they are defined as ADULTERESSES and dirty. Peter calls the CORRUPTERS of the Word those who SELL LEARNING AT RETAIL.

ALL of the MARKS of the Beast have been usled as Revelation defines the LOCUSTS as to SEPARATE OUT those marked by the BEAST and those marked by the WORD. ZOE is defined forever as "the BEAST and female instructing principle." Her task is to silence the little dumb jehovah and logos.

Works, doesn't it? MUSES are LOCUSTS with stingers in their tail and Paul calls them SORCERERS. Jesus calls all PERFORMERS Hypocrirtes because that is what the word means.

 
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Ken Sublett
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Feminist, pro-abortionists, Jewish, defender of the Gospel of Judas, Huh?

September 3 2006, 3:46 PM 

PART TWO: Don't let Amy bring her GOAT. This is long but CONTRADICTS the Zoe/Otter and other beast terms.

Some GOSPEL OF JUDAS to fit the ZOE concept of EVE as the "mother of the Gods." Paul understand the parabolic message of EVE and of the "two sons" Cain and Able and we should trust Him rather than a NEO-Gnottic which is the END TIME Babylon Harlot of Revelation 17 and the singers, musicians and rhetoricians ARE called SORCERERS.

It comes as no surprise that the MARK of Zoe would import Amy Jill Levine who is a self-styled feminist, pro-abortonists and a Jew. God won't LET a PhDuh in the FREE WORD hear the facts: in fact, He sends them strong delusions that they believe a lie. One should note also that the ZOE or GNOSTIC concept is forcing a FEMINIST system which was never ISRAELITE but based on the Jews whom God TURNED OVER to worship the starry host at Mount Sinai. From that time onward, the king, monarchy, temple etal were Babylonian or of the Goyim or Gentile system. That is why Jesus REFUSED to speak to them and defined them as the sons of the Devil because they "speak on their own." John refused to baptize them as of the GENERATION (race) of VIPERS. The CROOKED generation specificially points to those who follow Cain (from a musical note) under the rulership of Satan or Lucifer or Zoe:
    The "Gospel of Judas" not only takes its place among numerous 'noncanonical' gospels, acts, and epistles, it also shows that Jesus' early followers did not feel themselves constrained by the canonical materials. Those who composed and copied the text challenged the traditional characterization of Judas as a villain, espoused a stricter sexual ethic than the canonical gospels, and offered an alternative theology to both the proto-Orthodox church and the Synagogue. In so doing, they tell us much about second century belief and practice, but very little if anything about the man from Nazareth himself." Amy Jill Levine
http://www.piney.com/Cain.html

The Gospel of Judas had LOST its place among the CHRISTIANS 1800 years before Amy Jill Lavine was BORN.
    The Gospel of Judas does not claim that the other disciples knew gnostic teachings. On the contrary, it asserts that the disciples have not learned the true Gospel, which Jesus taught only to Judas Iscariot, as exemplified in the following words: "Knowing that Judas was reflecting upon something that was exalted, Jesus said to him: Step away from the others and I shall tell you the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is possible for you to reach it, but you will grieve a great deal. For someone else will replace you, in order that the twelve disciples may again come to completion with their God."
It comes as no surprise that Otter Creek us without a paddle after Rubel Shelly and others not trained as Bible scholars claim that the Bible has been sifted by time and philosophy so that it no longer has value except as "fragments" to build your own narrative. He and others discounte the 12 apostles and the writings some left as the divisive epistles of divided apostles. This is THE MESSAGE OF JUDAS.
    The Gospel of Judas goes even further, showing Jesus in various instances criticizing the other disciples for their ignorance and their followers of immorality. When they present a vision they had to him, he points out the vision's true meaning as follows: "Those you have seen receiving the offerings at the altar . that is who you are. That is the God you serve, and you are those twelve men you have seen. The cattle you have seen brought for sacrifice are the many people you lead astray before that altar. (. . .) will stand and make use of My name in this way, and generations of the pious will remain loyal to Him."
This is ALSO the Judas Gospel of those trained as Prophets, Chanellers and Facilitators to destroy the OLD conservatives.

So, Amy Jill Levine is just flat wrong and is HELPING otter facilitate the move back to JUDAISM which was really CAINITE OR kennite and not OF ISRAEL: JESUS told us so.


People who lived in the shadows of the Apostles understood the outcome of the Gospel of Judas. Therefore, don't be fooled by female GNOSTICS. Paul understood the parabolic message of EVE or ZOE which modern theologians are not permitted to understand.

On the contrary, "early Christians" understood the gospel of Judas to be a product of the sectarians Cainites or Vipers.
    Cainites Britannica: member of a Gnostic sect mentioned by Irenaeus and other early Christian writers as flourishing in the 2nd century AD, probably in the EASTERN area of the Roman Empire. The Christian theologian Origen declared that the Cainites had "entirely abandoned Jesus."

    Their reinterpretation of Old Testament texts reflected the view that Yahweh (the God of the Jews) was not merely an inferior demiurge, as many Gnostics believed, but that he was positively evil because his creation of the world was perversely designed to prevent the reunion of the divine element in man with the unknown perfect God.

    The Cainites also reversed biblical values by revering such rejected figures as Cain (whence their name), Esau, and the Sodomites, all of whom were considered to be bearers of an esoteric, saving knowledge (gnosis).

    These biblical persons were said to have been punished by a jealous, irrational creator called Hystera (Womb).

    The Cainites also honoured Eve [ZOE] and Judas Iscariot and had gospels bearing their names.

People who lose faith in that which they are SELLING are dangerous to themselves and to everyone else: they see visions and hear voices and do so things COMMON to all priesthoods.
    The Cainites are sometimes called libertine Gnostics for believing that true perfection, and hence salvation,

    comes only by breaking all the laws of the Old Testament.
    The violation of biblical prescriptions was, therefore, a religious duty.

    Because it was difficult to violate all biblical laws during a single lifetime, the Cainites did not look for salvation in the created world but rather escape from it.

    Their subversion of biblical stories allowed them to use Sacred Scripture to support their dualistic view of existence.

Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. I , Book One, Irenaeus. Chapter XXXI.-Doctrines of the Cainites.

http://www.piney.com/FathIrenaHerI.html

    1. Others again declare that Cain derived his being from the Power above, and acknowledge that Esau, Korah, the Sodomites, and all such persons, are related to themselves. On this account, they add, they have been assailed by the Creator, yet no one of them has suffered injury.

    For Sophia [Mother of Zoe] was in the habit of carrying off that which belonged to her from them to herself.

    They declare that Judas the traitor was thoroughly acquainted with these things, and that he alone, knowing the truth as no others did, accomplished the mystery of the betrayal; by him all things, both earthly and heavenly, were thus thrown into confusion. They produce a fictitious history of this kind, which they style the Gospel of Judas.

Cain and Abel had different fathers. Cain is from the Hebrew:

What the Bible Says:
    I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and
      the word of God abideth in you, and
      ye have overcome the wicked ONE. 1 Jn.2:14
    In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. 1 Jn. 3:10

    For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. 1 Jn. 3:11

    Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brothers righteous (innocent). 1 John 3:12

    Woe unto them for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. Jude 1:11

What is the meaning of Cain?
    Qayin (h7014) kah'-yin; the same as 7013 (with a play upon the affinity to 7069); Kajin, the name of the first child, also of a place in Pal., and of an Oriental tribe: - Cain, Kenite (-s)
These were the JEWS in Jerusalem who WERE NOT Israelites but Devil worshiping Arabs or Kenites. They continued as THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN and no early "Christian" ever followed them: they were DENOUNCED and out latter day PhDuhs probably never heard of the Gospel of Judas before they got EXPERTED by the Britannica a decidedly anti-Christian work. Wonder how we have been WARNING against the JUBALS and ZOES and the gospel of Judas for about one decade? The Jubal or Genun son of Lamech story has Satan teaching him how to seduce mankind with music.
    Cain: Qanah (h7069) kaw-naw'; a prim. root; to ERECT, i. e. create; by extens. to procure, espec. by purchase (caus. sell); by impl. to own: - attain, buy (-er), teach to keep cattle, get, PROVOKE to jealousy, possess (-or), purchase, recover, redeem, * surely, * verily.
Of course Abel was the Agriculturist and did not give rise to ZOEITE fertility cults. The cattle were ALL free and belonged to everyone. However, the Cainites including Jubal who HANDLES (meaning without authority) musical instruments ALSO stole the cattle and put them in HIS fold. He then SOLD the people's cattle BACK to them. That is EXACTLY what is happening in Zoeland where they prostitute by SELLING you the FREE WATER of the Word and putting you behind fences when Jesus TURNED YOU LOOSE.
    Qayin (h7013) kah'-yin; from 6969 in the orig. sense of fixity; a lance (as striking fast): - spear.

    Qiynah (h7015) kee-naw'; from 6969; a dirge (as accompanied by beating the breasts or on instruments): - lamentation.

The Gospel of Judas and the Cainites point directly to REAL or VIRTUAL sodomy as "the holiness of sin."
    THUS hath the Lord God shewed unto me: and behold a basket of summer fruit. Amos 8:1

    And he said, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A basket of summer fruit. Then said the Lord unto me, The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more. Amos 8:2

FRUITS have always been FRUITS and GAY has always been GAY: That is why Paul outlawed ANY "mental excitement" when you worship IN THE SPIRIT "because OUTSIDE there be DOGS." A basket:
    Keluwb (h3619) kel-oob'; from the same as 3611; a bird-trap (as furnished with a clap-stick or treadle to spring it); hence a basket (as resembling a wicker cage): - basket, cage.

      As a cage is full of birds, so are their houses full of deceit: therefore they are become great, and waxen rich. Je.5:27

      Keleb (h3611) keh'leb; from an unused root mean. to yelp, or else to attack; a dog; hence (by euphemism) a male prostitute: - dog.

      For dogs have compassed me: the assembly [multitude, swarm] of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. Ps.22:16

      Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter. Is.56:11

      And I will appoint over them four kinds, saith the Lord: the sword to slay, and the dogs to tear, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the earth, to devour and destroy. Je.15:3

    And the songs of the temple shall be howlings in that day, saith the Lord God: there shall be many dead bodies in every place; they shall cast them forth with silence. Amos 8:3

      Yalal (h323) yaw-lal'; a prim. root; to howl (with a wailing tone) or yell (with a boisterous one): - (make to) howl, be howling.

      This was the loud singing of the DOGS or CYNICS which do "praise songs" one of the oldest superstitions to ATTRACT those to the SEEKER CENTER just like Abaddon and the MUSES who were nasty prostitutes.

    And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your SONGS into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day. Amos 8:10

    Quwn (h6969) koon; a prim. root; to strike a musical note, i. e. chant or wail (at a funeral): - lament, mourning woman.

    Thus saith the Lord of hosts, Consider ye, and call for the mourning women, that they may come; and send for cunning women, that they may come: Je.9:17

When the Musical Minstrels came to do their music FOR or WITH dead ancestors just as in Amos, Jesus CAST THEM OUT more or less violently like one EJECTS dung. That was because to say flute-girl was to say prostitute and the male HARP PLUCKERS (Psallo) were always trying to PLUCK young "ministers of the gods."

The SIX DAYS are over and the SABBATH will begin shortly but first God sends the MUSES or LOCUSTS to "drive away" those marked with the word at Baptism and to COLLECT those marked with the MUSIC mark of CAIN or the Cainites whom your femist, Jewish, pro-abortionist NOT-LITERATE lady is going try to use to deceive you into JUDASIM: you are just about there.

Judas is that WICKED ONE and the SON OF PERDITION: The Judas Bas was for "carrying the MOUTH PIECES OF WIND INSTRUMENTS." The images on many Greek vases shows the bag always attached to the flute case and the ACTORS UP are drunk and perverted.


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 70.157.34.131 on Sep 3, 2006 7:53 PM


 
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There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

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Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

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Here is the list of players;

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120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
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