I am a student currently enrolled in Rochester College in Rochester Hills, Michigan, and I came across this site yesterday while looking for information on Rubel Shelly and the "Emergent Church." Needless to say, I was shocked to see just how famous (or infamous) Rubel Shelly is within many of the Churches of Christ - and even more shocked just how much information the college has kept from students about his background and opinions. He was presented to the majority of students with great enthusiasm as a remarkable theological leader. Since the arrival of Rubel Shelly, Rochester College has been moving in a startlingly controversial direction, however. The following is my account of the happenings at Rochester College pertaining to Rochester's new change of direction. I apologize for the length of this report, but I feel it is necessary to give all relevant details in order to aaccurately portray the troubling events that have took place at Rochester College recently.
What this article doesn't say is that the comments recorded by the media at the event, the Detroit Free Press, included only the more moderate quotes from Dr. Shelly. Ingnatius Insight offers a decent review of the event, although they were limited to writing off of what the Detroit Free Press chose to report. I, on the other hand, had the opportunity to attend the event myself, and I got the "uncensored" version of Shelly's comments. One of the documentary's main driving points was the issue of "Could it (Holocaust) happen again?" Several students responded in the affirmative to Shelly's recorded comments, but Shelly took it a step further. When students chose to ask the question "Could it happen again?" directly to the panel of Rochester professors, Shelly quickly spoke up. He replied that it indeed has happened again - with Hurricane Katrina. Enough said.
After hearing the speech, I was skeptical about some of its claims that were supposedly "truth." I did some research and discovered that not only was the speaker's "A World Without Black People" section of his Black History Month speech riddled with historical errors - including some outright lies - it was also plagiarized from an anonymous internet e-mail chainletter! By looking at http://www.snopes.com/business/origins/blackinv.asp I had discovered that story had been floating around for years in chainletter circles and was decisively debunked by Snope's myth busters team. The speaker, however, read it as if it was his own material (he had copy-and-pasted into his speech text) and did not give credit to its author nor did he say that it was someone else's material. In light of this, I joined with other Rochester students who were as stunned as I was that such intellectually dishonest and pilfered material was presented as fact to our asssembly. Together, we wrote an article to one of Rochester College's Deans, Candace Cain. Despite all the evidence we found, however, the Rochester College Administration dodged the accusations, refusing to address any of the blatantly false claims and plagiarized nature of the "speech." Due to the hostile environment at the school, I and Aquinas, the first student I told about my findings, decided to take a stance of anonymity to protect our identities. We did not ask for fame, credit, or recognition obviously, but instead requested that the administration address the clear plagiarism and violation of the college's own rules in front of the student body; the Snopes.com page provided enough evidence even without the blog.
"The Shield" Rochester College Newspaper Article by Dr. John Barton
April-May 2006
In the May Edition of The Shield, Rochester College's campus newspaper, Dr. John Barton Barton - apparently a cohort of Rubel Shelly in the "Wineskins" progressive (a.k.a. liberal) Church of Christ group - wrote an article dealing with the controversial Black History Month speech, even paying attention to the plagiarized section. However, Dr. Barton neither mentions the http://www.snopes.com/business/origins/blackinv.asp URL that proves the "A World Without Black People" section of the speech was plagiarized, nor he does he state that the speech has PROVEN lies and inaccuracies. Instead, he says "Inaccuracies, if indeed present, are unfortunate and I would suggest they need to be investigated before the speech is used again in a public venue." By ignoring valid and verifiable third-party evidence, Dr. Barton robs Rochester College students of the opportunity to discover for themselves whether or not the speech was plagiarized and critically examine the "facts" presented in it. Rochester College often claims to its students that critical thinking is of the highest value to them, but the Black History Month incident in particular shows that critical thinking is only valued when it AGREES WITH THEM.
"Emerging Faith" Presentation Series in Rochester College Assembly
Oct. 2006 and (upcoming) Nov. 2006
In a series of assembly presentations featuring Dr. Keith Huey, Dr. Rubel Shelly, and Chris Lindsey on the days of October 17, 24, and 31, the students of Rochester College have received lessons on the "Emergent Church" movement. Supposedly covering its major features, goals, and leaders, the speakers were given the nearly the entire assembly time to present the Emergent Church" Once again, I began to research the Emergent Church to see if what I was being told in assembly matched with reality. Out of three, Dr. Huey presented the most honest and informative explanation of the Emergent Church. Dr. Shelly, on the other hand, gave what another student involved with the QuestionTheCollege blog said was "A speech that could have been given in any Christian congregation" while supposedly being an specific lesson on the Emergent Church. Shelly noted nothing of the Emergent Church's postmodernist focus and its syncretic attitudes.
In addition, Dr. Huey mentioned in his presentation that the Emergent Church's defining statement that we "do not have a monopoly on truth." Dr. Shelly made no mention of this statement, much less criticized it. What happened to Jesus's claim that "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6)!? Jesus does not only HAVE a monopoly on truth, He IS the monopoly on truth. Shelly presented an appealing traditional message of "practice what you preach" without giving students actual information that explains why the Emergent Church is different from traditional churches.
In the third installment of the "Emerging Faith" series, Chris Lindsey gave a worship-oriented service fashioned after the Emergent Church. In it, Lindsey expressed his frustration at having difficultly getting close to God by reading the Bible. Giving the analogy of how a student memorizing the statistics of his favorite baseball player does cannot actually "know" that player because of his study of the player's athletic performance, Lindsey said that we cannot necessarily "know" God by reading the Bible. I find this analogy flawed to the extreme. As 2 Timothy 3:16 says "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work", we learn about God by reading His Word. Baseball statistics do not contain the personal thoughts and feelings, only athletic performance. The Bible IS the very Word of God - it is a message from God Himself to mankind.
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Note: My main intention in writing this (as well as the intentions of other Rochester student writers will be joining in this endeavor as well) to simply "let the truth be known" about what's going on at Rochester College. Rochester College portrays itself as a Bible-believing, conservative Christian institution, but it has shown itself to be anything but that. I hope that you will pass this information on to your friends and church members - it's time donors and visitors see past the facade Rochester College is putting on to attract and maintain students and funds.
Final Note: This is only the beginning of the accounts of troubling incidents at Rochester College. I and other students will write more as time permits.
I managed to retire at about 48 but Rubel Shelly single-handed spoiled too much of it.
You are correct: I don't think that Rubel ever had an original idea. If you see him preaching a series or publishing a new book you can find it all on the internet. Max Lucado, as I remember it says that he gets an idea and then buys up all of the books on the subject. Then he puts it into his own limpy style with a team of editors examining each word for its punch.
Rubel makes it plain that he detests the church of Christ probably because the strait shooters treated him with contempt when he began on his women and music theme. I have reviewed many of his waning sermons where he cannot preach without pouring out fires on the heads of the non-instrumentalists. Not only does he not have the truth about churches of Christ and racism, he thinks that the Restoration Movement invented all of the evil in the world including bad breath. While denying that the Bible or anyone but legalists ever believed in Commands, Examples and Inferences, any reader can see that there is little exception among the historic scholars and the Bible.
Here is something I posted when I read that Shelly was using a Missional Madness book in his "ministry" series. I don't know how one who has insisted on being master could write about ministry:
There is never more than one or two good witnesses in most groups and you have the ball. You need to keep your head down because these people will hurt you one way or another. Anyone who would INFLITRATE and DIVERT a peaceable, happy church of Christ to, as they say, make it a "theater for holy entertainment" will (as they promise you) do ANYTHING using their mantra to BRING IN MORE SOULS.
So, you have Shelly and his FRIEND in high places and a BOARD who is as Isaiah or someone said "sleeping dogs" and they are probably NOT going to wake up because those with CHARISMA have a way of singing them with their scorpion tails.
I feel very sad about the happenings at Rochester College. But, at least one member of the administration was "warned" personally by me. I live in Michigan and heard that Rubel was going to be on the staff at RC and emailed one of the administrators of the college. Basically, I asked them how they could allow Rubel to teach the students and still claim to hold to the teachings of the church of Christ. After all, Rubel's last church was a church of Christ and was "changed" to a community church WHILE Rubel was attending there. \
I basically got the "run around" and could tell that at least some of the administrators had not done their homework prior to inviting Rubel.
I have expect Kevin J. Anderson to start teaching there any day now.
I have followed Rubel's sermons which are posted on line and I assure you that he is NOT remotely connected to the "mainlinne" church of Christ. Without defending those who gave him no quarter, I can assure you that he claims to 'take liberties' with the Bible, believes that it has all been "sifted" by time, evolution and by Einstein and Heisenberg and takes every opening to spread hate among good people. He "takes liberties" with the Restoration Movement and historical facts and misrepresents it at every turn. The ANTI-instrumental "sectarians" specificially rips him open because he PRETENDS that the Bible and most church history defends the position of the Church of Christ. The thesis that if you oppose false teaching then YOU are being judgmental is just PSYCHOLOGICAL VIOLENCE.
I simply do not believe anyone who pretends that there is no such thing as authority based on commands, examples and inferences and that the BIBLE says nothing to condemn music or any kind of mental arousal.
He denies and preaches that you as an individual have the right to read, interpret and speak the Word. Therefore, if you oppose him and the new MINISTRY program then that PROVES that you have a bad problem. The "slighting" by the STAFF who have to be co-conspirators is just another proof that you are BENEITH their role of "minister becomes master."
However, God sent YOU out to test the spirits and speak the Word and you might BEGIN at Rochester. I would hope that you would post handouts or transcripts of tapes and refute them point by point. If you let their heresy stand without teaching the Bible and historical fact then you cannot complain. You can post that or mail that without revealing your identity which is important if you expect to graduate.
You can post them here (long posts ok) or e-mail them to Donnie and we can DIALOG and hold "church" by speaking that which has been spoken. They THINK that you are a mouse and have no influence but that is NOT the case. When you SEND OUT the truth it will be read and have an effect. We all get a shot at What Will you Do with Jesus: you may not get another test.
Here is a list of some of the churches who support Rochester. I personally would not attend a congregation that would take money from the free will offerings that were given for the work of the church and the care of the destitute and spend it on highter education.
Associates of Rochester College Founded in 1959 to Provide Financial Support for Rochester College; email - associates@rc.edu
Brighton Church of Christ, 6026 Rickett Rd., Brighton MI
We keep track of promises, as well as your comedies such as this one … just for the record. Be sure to inform us whether or not you have decided to take the small trip in order to contribute financially. We will certainly post THAT info.
One of the congregations that help support Rochester is the Lake Orion Church of Christ. This church has the following on its web site:
"Areas that you can help:
...
5. Worship team. Help us plan and coordinate our worship."(end)
I list this because some have said that a worship team only helps with the singing. Seems like more then singing is expected from this worship team!
Another article on this same web site may hint that the praise team is not being accepted by all at this church. The article reads:
"Worship…Who’s it About?
...it’s difficult to talk about worship styles and methods without talking about opinion because really, our opinions and experiences are all we have. Jesus didn’t address whether or not praise teams should be used. He didn’t seem to care much about the arrangement of chairs or how comfortable people were as they sat on the ground and absorbed His words. He didn’t address clapping, raising of hands or anything like that. He did however, address loving people, taking care of people and serving people. So if that is Jesus’ focus, why is our focus about worship style and method?
I’m not sure there is a good answer to that question. Past experiences, good or bad, play a big part in that answer. Opinions, whether they are our own or something someone said that we agree with also, factor in. But how can we know if we are right?…and does being right really even matter?
Here’s another quick confession that we need to put right out on the table. I like praise teams. I like having other people singing with me who know the words and can assist in the leading of some wonderfully written songs. Why? Because I believe it would add to our Sunday morning worship experience. But guess what? It’s not about me. And it’s not about you. Worship is BIGGER than a style or method, and the method of a praise team isn’t right or wrong; it’s just a method. If you have never had an experience with a praise team, you might say, “Well that sounds fine if we had a bigger auditorium, but I don’t think we need one for Lake Orion.” That’s a fair statement and I might even agree with you…maybe we don’t need one. But a praise team should never be the subject. Adoration of the King of kings, Lord of lords…that is the subject."—Randy Speck (end)
This article reads as if Randy is trying to convince or reassure someone that the praise team has Biblical approval. Maybe Randy finds this in the silence of the scriptures or maybe Randy just don't care! Did you notice where Randy ask the question "...does being right really even matter?"
There are hundreds of Churches of Christ that commit money to Christian institutes of higher learning. Will you also attack those churches? Or do you simply attack other believers (for that is what it is) who donate to institutes of higher learning that do not strike your personal theological fancy? The money those churches give to support this school have helped to further my education, which has subsequently served to deepen my relationship with Jesus Christ. Coming from a relatively poor background, I would not have been able to afford school otherwise. I've also been burned by church a time or two. So, rest easy, brother. The money those churches have given to Rochester College, have still gone to help the poor and disenfranchised. YHWH's peace.
Rejoice and be GLAD: Fallen Angels are getting in their LAST show.
November 10 2006, 11:13 AM
What the poor creature could never guess is that there is no concept in the Christian System of a PRAISE SERVICE. The first assemblies in the wilderness were only for instruction and the instruments and loud rejoicing were outlawed. A specific law (numbers 10:7) and the definition of a Holy Convocation and the universal history of the Jews the idea of church as SCHOOL and NOT pagan worship should keep the literate from making a noise in the face of a Holy God. There was "no praise service in the synagogue" as directly commanded, as practiced, as endorsed by Jesus, as defined by Paul in Romans 15 and the NOT singing passages and the history of the church for almost 400 years. Singing as a ACT as opposed to SPEAKING the Word one to another to TEACH and ADMONISH was one of those heresies the Restoration Movement intended to remedy.
Praise singing is well documented as one of the earliest, most legalistic and superstitious acts of a LOST people trying to appease or even threaten the gods. Praise singing (Halal = make self vile) was a legalistic effort to AID the gods so they didn't KEEP on failing. Recorded history knows that those who were effective were emotionally and sexually abnormal. That is why the result of rejecting the Word so completely that the writer could spew out what he did is that God pours out His WRATH which means ORGE or sending you jesters, buffoona and spiritual adulterers--those who corruupt the word with music and BODY worship Peter called "selling at retail" like a prostitute.
Jesus didn't DEFINE nor PRACTICE worship in the sense the misguided misleader means: He stood up to read the Word and had the uncommon decency to LEAVE US AN EXAMPLE of sitting down and dialoging the word. He didn't lead prayers, take up a collection, do praise singing or tell self-invented fables.
God was going to come and rescue the outcasts and downcasts: Assuredy what we call worshuup-uh with girlies clapping, waving and singing is only for the rich and famous to get richer and more infamous:
And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. Is.11:12
The Lord God, which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him. Is.56:8
Of God, Isaiah wrote
<He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many;
for he shall bear their iniquities. Is.53:11
That is why God came as The CHRIST OF GOD to rescue a small band of people FROM those ignorant men who enslave them as DEMAGOGUES which is defined as APPEASING and taking captive (heresy) men by the PERFORMING ARTS. That is why Jesus did call people to WORSHIP and PRAISE but to REST and learn. Sabbath does not mean Saturday: it means to REST and "learn of me." His promise is only to the TWOS and THREES because He will not be found in the campe or city or masses but OUTSIDE the camp suffering repraoches.
Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Matthew 11:28
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. Matthew 11:29
For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. Matthew 11:30
And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers. Lu.11:46
In Acts 20 Paul warns about the WOLVES who grieve you: the wolves or dogs were male prostitute and the MARK of these beasts was always MUSIC performed only by prostitutes of homosexual males. Music IS the Mark: Paul calls the musical performers SORCERERS in Revelatioon 18.
Labor is what performance preachers, singers and musician do: indeed the SERVICE of the Levitical Warrior Musicians was called HARD BONDAGE from a word similar to Abaddon who unleashes the locusts (Muses) Johen called SORCERERS. The burden laders come ONLY when you as did Israel at Mount Sinai, fall into the Musical Idolatry of the Egyptian trinity. Music is the MARK that you have fallen and will never rise again (The Book of Enoch defined by Jude)
Kopiao (g2872) kop-ee-ah'-o; from a der. of 2873; to feel fatigue; by impl. to work hard: - (bestow) labour, toil, be wearied.
Kopos (g2873) kop'-os; from 2875; a cut, i.e. (by anal.) toil (as reducing the strength), lit. or fig.; by impl. pains: - labour, / trouble, weariness.
Kopria (g2874) kop-ree'-ah; from kopros , (ordure; perh. akin to 2875); manure: - DUNG (-hill)
You don't get to discover this at a LIBERAL ARTISTS school but Bible readers know that Jesus CAST OUT the musical minstrels LIKE DUNG because they were the signs of the women performing as SORCERERS and all singers were also prostitutes. The word REST is a highly dedicated word used in the literature to mean STOP the rhetoric, stop the singing, stop the music, just stop it.
The LADED part means "to create mental excitement through religious ritual." All rituals using music intends to inject fear to take you captive and condition you to believe that the feeling is SPIRITUAL. It is not: the singers PLEASURE you by injecting you with endorphins to induce the impulses of FIGHT, FLIGHT or SEXUALITY.
Worship for a CHRISTIAN will never rise above REVERENCE and GODLY FEAR: if it does then Paul warns us that GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE.
On the contrary the WORSHIP which the false preachers and PhDuhs speak about is defined as the end time church named after CIRCE: she was the harlot of Homer's legends with more than a bit of truth. She used music, drugs and sorcery to seduce people to make them into BEASTS a term used to speak of the Mumbling Crowds or masses which have no hope. The word WORSHIP which the false teachers use because they are DEMAGOGUES and want to APPEASE the crowd with performing arts because it will increase the cash flow: they have their reward.
James limits PURE religon to the HOOKS upon which it all hangs: living right and practicing social justice. The Harlot of Revelation 18 uses speakers, singers and musicians to perform:
Thręsk-eia, Ion. thręsk-eię , hę, ( [thręskeuô] ) religious worship, cult, ritual, hę peri ta hira th. Hdt.2.18, IG12(5).141.5 (Paros, iii B.C.), J.AJ17.9.3, etc.; tou Apollônos SIG801 D (Delph., i A.D.); hę peri tinos th. ib. 867.48 (Ephesus, ii A.D.): pl., rites, Hdt.2.37, D.H.2.63, PGnom. 185 (ii A.D.), Wilcken Chr.72 (iii A.D.).
2. religion, service of God, LXX Wi.14.18, Act.Ap.26.5, Ep.Jac.1.26; th. tou theou mia esti, mę einai kakon Corp.Herm.12 fin.; hekatera th., i.e. Christianity and Paganism, Them.Or.5.69c; th. tôn angelôn worshipping of angels, Ep.Col.2.18
Threskeia (g2356) thrace-ki'-ah; from a der. of 2357; ceremonial observance: - religion, worshipping.
Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, Col.2:18
Jude identifies the WANDERING STARS which are the FALLEN ANGELS in the Book of Enoch and similar documents commenting on the Jubal family. Jubal HANDLED musical instruments which means WITHOUT AUTHORITY. He is well documented in the Bible and the Babylonian tablets. Satan and his / her FALLEN ANGELS taught the YOUTH how to organize mixed-sex choirs, build and play musical instruments and wear seductive clothing. They seduced the Holy Sethites from the LIVING Word and they could NEVER REPENT. Why can false preachers still get paid when their PUPILS are ignorant that Lucifer (ZOE) is called the "singing and harp playing prostitute" which is restated as the Holy Whore in Revelation 17 and John calls HER singers and musicians and grinders (prostitutes) SORCERERS who DECEIVED (past tense) the whole world. John spoke of APOLLONOS or Apollo who USED the muses at Delphi in his SEEKER CENTER used to fleece the flock.
Paul connects both the tongues and singing OUR OF THEIR OWN SPIRITS to witchcraft (sounding, clanging), to warfare and to the LUST to speak angelic voices which the SINGER-MUSICIANS claim they can bring to you as INSPIRED. As Paul outlawed SELF PLEASURE (musical-sexual) in Romans 15, and the singing word is rooted in HERESY and creates the MENTAL EXCITEMENT Jesus put down, the word
"Voluntary" (g2309) means determined, delightful, pleasurable. It is from:
Haireomai (g138) hahee-reh'-om-ahee; prob. akin to 142; to take for oneself, i.e. to prefer: - choose. Some of the forms are borrowed from a cognate heĺlloĺmai +tx hel'-lom-ahee; # which is otherwise
Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than (choosing) to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; Heb.11:25
3. in bad sense, religious formalism, anti hosiotętos Ph.1.195 ; th. biôtikę VULGAR SUPERSTITION.
All forms of AROUSAL SINGING are roooted in the word HERESY and 142. These words connect to the DEMAGOGUE who fleeces you using THE PERFORMING ARTS and with the Greek KLEPTOMAI. Fools always love to mock facts. Paul uses a form of SYNAGOGUE for the gatherings or assemblying and the Synagogue had NO PRAISE SERVICE. His UNIQUE worship word was to GIVE HEED to the Word (as written) or Give attendance to the public reading of the Word, to exhortation and to doctrine. What the DOCTORS OF THE LAW whose job is to TAKE AWAY THE KEY TO KNOWLLEDGE are delivering to you AT A PRICE TOO HIGH has no connection to the Christian ekklesia or SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE.
OUR mortal sin will be to express SURPRISE that the MANY in Paul's message and the REMNANT concept is really taking place before our eyes. THEY have decided what the will do TO Jesus and WE have been witnesses in the SPECTACKLE where the MANY wil use CARNAL WEAPONS (lifeless instruments) to fight the FATHER / MOTHER of musical BLEEDING OFF worship form God in the SHAM battle which we FOOLS are supposed to see as honorable rather than the PROPHECY of the fallen angels still seeking and getting lots of worship. The SPIRIT people have and will always be so tiny as to be virtually invisible: assurdely the SOUND and LIGHT shows define LUCIFER or ZOE.
"Remember, psalms, hymns, and songs refer only to words!...If the souls of men cannot comprehend, our singing is no more than an unknown tongue." (Source: Church Music,L. O. Sanderson, 1977 Freed-Hardeman College Lectureship.
That's true, Jimmy: Paul drew some parallels between the clanging bronze and speaking in tongues. The clanging bronze was a hi-tek version of the "Familiar Spirit" of the Witch of Endor--an empty-sounding wineskin used by sorcerers. They were made of various sizes and placed around the theater to amplify certain pitches of voice is song: they were a form of pipe organ. His use of LIFELESS INSTRUMENT has much the same meaning as CARNAL WEAPON. Indeed, a single word in Hebrew is used for both a PSALTERY and a WEAPON. The Nebel also has the same meaning as the Familiar Spirit or Sounding Bronze because it was made of an old goat skin or some animal "which had died of itself" and was polluted. Both the music and the words are speaking in tongues because they have no meaning other than jabber. The repeating of certain phrases or words was called SORCERY or ENCHANTMENT because the purpose was to put you into an altered state and make you believe that "spiritual rape" as "rapture" is a good thing. Here is an interesting tidbit showing that the musicians stand by the GATES OF HELL just as Inanna the singing, musical prostitute of Babylon had to go into hell to get Tammuz to return and play the magical flute with the women.
Pluto as a "god"" got stuck with the underworld or Hell. All of the charismatic, musical worship such as that of Dionysus will help you into hell. It was this "worship" they tried to force on Jesus. Aristophanes is the rare classical work which is translated without pulling any punches. Not even Bible translators are able to bring themselves to OUT the vileness of those who try to silence the Word of the Living God. Remembering that Jesus CAST OUT the musical minstrels like dung:
HERACLES
Then weltering seas of filth And ever-rippling dung: and plunged therein,
Whoso has wronged the stranger here on earth, Or robbed his boylove of the promised pay,
Or swinged [threshed] his mother, or profanely smitten
His father's check, or sworn an oath forsworn,
Or copied out a speech of Morsimus.
DIONYSUS
There too, perdie, should he be plunged, whoe'er
Has danced the sword-dance of Cinesias. [Kinesias' pyrrhic]
Recommended by Fred Peatross in the Emerging Church of Christ.
HERACLES
And next the breath of flutes will float around you,<>
And glorious sunshine, such as ours, you'll see,
And myrtle groves, and happy bands who clap
Their hands in triumph, men and women too.
DIONYSUS
And who are they?
HERACLES
The happy mystic bands,
XANTHIAS
And I'm the donkey in the mystery show.
But I'll not stand it, not one instant longer.
HERACLES
Who'll tell you everything you want to know.
You'll find them dwelling close beside the road
You are going to travel, just at Pluto's gate.
And fare thee well, my brother.
When you hear the MUSIC you are close to hell: it was brought by Lucifer (Zoe) the singing and harp playing prostitute. It is the same Mother of the gods or holy whore whose "performance speakers, singers, musicians" and all operatives who performed SORCERY will have their lamps put out and, like the king/queen of Babylon rot on a bed of maggots and be burned up along with his HARPS and still-breathing HARPISTS.
I told you: I can quote data all day long which proves that MUSIC is the MARK of the BEAST: Zoe or Luciferr is called the "beast and the female instructing principle." As in The Book of Enoch, when the musicians MARK you you are HARD WIRED to make the "sexual arousal through music means spiritual worship" and you will never come unwired: Forever and ever amen.
“…there is no New Testament authority for instrumental music in the worship of God. There is certainly no direct statement in the New Testament which authorizes it; neither is there any implication contained in any statement of Scripture which can be used to authorize it. The New Testament preserves no record of its use in the first century so as to authorize it by apostolic precedent. And there is no rule of expediency which can possibly justify pianos and organs in worship to God.
New Testament authority is for singing as the means of musical praise to God in the Christian Age. Such passages as Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16 call for "speaking," "teaching," "admonishing," and "singing." Every one of these actions is one of verbal communication…” (Source: INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC: THE REAL ISSUE INVOLVED; Rubel Shelly; Freed-Hardeman College Lectureship, 1977)
I too being a Rochester College student, and now alumnus, think it sad that you all are taking one person's account as the quintessential truth about the college and a few of its professors. If you really wanted to approach all of this in an intellegent manner you would open up DISCUSSION with said professors..... and by discussion I mean actually listen to one another and take time to think about the comments of both parties.
And to take this just a bit further, I think this is exactly what is wrong with the church: we'll stand on a soapbox all day long as long as we don't have to actually DISCUSS anything...... not to mention that we pick up and rally around these sorts of issues and ignore the homeless man down the street that needs some food..... or the teenage mother who is desperately looking for some love...... or the young college people who desperately want to do mission work but can't because no one will donate money........ or any of the other neglegences we as Christians have let slip right through our fingers to fight our own internal battles. A house divided will not stand.
Brothers .........What you are saying is just speculation on your part. Just because nothing is said about music in this instance doesn't mean that they couldn't use music. We are to have reasonable minds.
Compass, your reply is kind and I appreciate your impute and I pray that you will not think me unkind by replying with the old argument that 'steak and potatoes' may be used on the Lord's Table. Just because nothing is said about music (steak and potatoes)in this instance doesn't mean that they couldn't use music (steak and potatoes). We are to have reasonable minds.
As to IM, consider this verse from the Hebrew writter: 'By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.' (Hebrew 13:15, KJV)
Re: Disturbing Things at Rochester College: A Student's Perspective
November 15 2006, 11:07 PM
I too being a Rochester College student, and now alumnus, think it sad that you all are taking one person's account as the quintessential truth about the college and a few of its professors. If you really wanted to approach all of this in an intellegent manner you would open up DISCUSSION with said professors..... and by discussion I mean actually listen to one another and take time to think about the comments of both parties.
And to take this just a bit further, I think this is exactly what is wrong with the church: we'll stand on a soapbox all day long as long as we don't have to actually DISCUSS anything...... not to mention that we pick up and rally around these sorts of issues and ignore the homeless man down the street that needs some food..... or the teenage mother who is desperately looking for some love...... or the young college people who desperately want to do mission work but can't because no one will donate money........ or any of the other neglegences we as Christians have let slip right through our fingers to fight our own internal battles. A house divided will not stand.
Re: Disturbing Things at Rochester College: A Student's Perspective
November 24 2006, 7:00 PM
Amy, the weblog is not run by one person, but a group, and a number of students frequent it. That said, Tacitus is not alone in his analysis of the proceedings of the college.
In our experience with the Administration, it seems they would rather put on the facade of objectivity and open discussion than actually address issues that are raised, but of course, I don’t expect you to take my word for it, that is why I would encourage you to look at the above links, and look over the information on the question the college blog and judge for yourself what is really going on.
I think you misunderstand the situation; the stakes in this sort of discussion are much higher than you realize. On my campus, there is a war going on over the heart and soul of Christianity. On one side, there are those who want the Gospel to be held as central, and hold scripture as a precedent for the Christian life, and on the other those who would set the focus of the Christian life on “a spiritual experience” or a religious feeling.
When it comes to the Emergent Church , what has been said is not the problem, it is what hasn’t. The implications of taking no position on propositional truths are overwhelming, to the Emergent Christian, the deity of Christ is not really foundational, much less important, and Christianity becomes a hollow shell that once held the power of the Gospel. There is no Doctrinal statement, there is no truth, it is all relative to the individual's personal experience. The life-changing power of the Gospel is replaced with "the life-changing discussion," and unity is fabricated because the Cross, the Great equalizer has now become just another story in an ancient book that can be taken or left based on an individual's whim.
If we preach an empty Gospel, one that makes no claims on truth, then how can we even claim to belong to Christ? How can we reach a lost and dying world with the Gospel if we are afraid to stand firm on the Gospel ourselves?
Re: Disturbing Things at Rochester College: A Student's Perspective
November 25 2006, 4:17 PM
Well, It should be known that the original poster is a coward who hides behind annoymous names and refuses to actually address his issues in public. I know that i am using an annonymous name currently but i would be more than happy to address any of his "Issues" with Rochester College, Rubel Shelly, And Dr Barton in a public forum on campus. As I would also be willing to address any issue any previous writer may have in a public forum because the hypocrisy is unimaginable amongst those who critique Rochester and its professors and supporters. Not only are some of the things I have seen written down right Racist (And I happen to be a White student) but also ignorant to historical and theological fact. It is interesting that only a handful of people actually post on this, simply reassuring me that this movement is shortsighted and dying. I belong to the Church of Christ as many of you do and I am simply asshamed that many of you claim to be the "spokesman" for the church. If anyone has issue with what I said and wish to meet in a public forum please respond, But if not please refrain from your hateful speach that the Bible so CLEARLY speaks against, espcially in annoymous forums. If not I guess I will simply accept my condemnation to Hell becuase I go to Rochester College, but at least I will go enlightened unlike the closeminded ignorant hate-mongers on this website
I would be glad to meet you there or any where else if you will promise to meet me after that in another location of my choosing.
This would be welcomed indeed. Prehaps the other annoymous student would like to join me in accepting this challenge. The trouble is there have been many, to many to list, who have challenged the teachings of Rubel Shelly over the past 20 years. It has been Rubel who runs away from any and all serious Bible debating.
Calvin first let me thank you for using a real name. Then let me ask you what you would like to debate.
I offered to meet with the "other student" only because he declare his willingness to address any issue any previous writer may have in a public forum because the hypocrisy is unimaginable amongst those who critique Rochester and its professors and supporters. And he included the name of Rubel shelly.
Do you find the complaints and criticism against the teachings of Rubel Shelly to be "unimaginable hypocrisy?"
I'm looking to sit and talk with you and about characterizations of people such as Rubel Shelly and the accusations being lobbed at RC, public or private. For starters, Rubel Shelly is NOT Rochester College as some have said. He has never once denied inspired Scripture in the conversations we have had with one another. We have agreed and disagreed on a number of points and lived in a spirit of charity. We both have enough of a sense of fallibalism that we could BOTH be wrong about certain things. But, he is not the only voice on the campus. Many within the religion faculty here at RC disagree from point-to-point on various subjects...as you will find within every church in America. So, in that, I do find a measure of hypocrisy. Even those who post here will find differences in terms of what Scripture demands of them in areas of faith in practice. Some will claim binding, others will claim freedom in Christ. The music issue is SO overblown/ridiculous that those who post here no longer even make sense to those without a doctorate in theology. JESUS didn't even talk that way. He talked about logs and vineyards, lost coins, and sheep. I find hypocrisy in the elevation of theology (an invention of man in his desire to better understand God) to the thing itself--God. Those are my thoughts and I will no longer post here. You can always e-mail me to keep this conversation going or call me on my cell, which I will give via email should you so desire. Ultimately, I think posting here accomplishes very little. If you would like to meet and relate and commune with one another, awesome. We can even formally debate. But, this here...this means nothing to me. I don't know if that answers your questions at all, but email me and we can continue. As for here..no more.
I sent you an email last night. I hope your ministry goes well. I attend the Brown Trail Church of Christ in Bedford, TX. Our web site address is:
http://www.browntrailchurchofchrist.com/
Because Rochester brought Shelly north to suck in young "ministers" and one textbook defines the Missional Church which restores Apostles and Prophets, the future of Rochester has been DIVERTED so that Lucian Palmer would not recognize it. Therefore RUBEL SHELLY IS ROCHESTER for anyone seeking to hire a preacher boy Paul and Alexander Campbell thought they had removed.
Rubel believes that ALL TRUTH except a few facts ABOUT Jesus have been shot away by Evolution and the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle (kicks in close to the speed of Light). Therefore, he admits to TAKING LIBERTY with the old fragments in order to use Narrative Theology to concoct a New set of truth because OUR culture has changed. That means that ROCHESTER and any of its HATCHLINGS will have their forehead branded with the denial that Scripture is inspired. The Just Jesus mantra and turning to the "gospels" is confessed to be because the epistles are divisive teachings by divisive apostles.
Rubel Shelly believes and teaches:
Here is what God wants churches passionate about:
(1) "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,
(2) that whoever believes in him SHALL not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16).
Jesus founded the ekklesia which is a synagogue which is a school of the Bible. The evangelist (not Shelly's LOCATED EVANGELIST) must be passionate about GOING and PREACHING. He makes disciples by BAPTIZING AND TEACHING whatever Jesus taught and Jesus said very little about JUST JESUS.
The Israelites had to "look upon" the serpent) John 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Should is not shall which means a certainty.
Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in him SHOULD not perish,
but have everlasting life.
Those who believe have the POWER TO BECOME the children of God. That means that they are justified or have LEGAL STANDING TO request A holy spirit or A good conscience BY being baptized to WASH AWAY THEIR SINS. Jesus is PASSIONATE about washing people and adding them to the church which is NOT a pagan worship center BUT a school of the Bible. The REAL Jesus was passionate about saving people ONLY at the time and place of a NEW BIRTH for one who had ALREADY been born of Amniotic fluid: Rubel misteaches this.
Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, EXCEPT a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he CANNOT enter into the kingdom of God.
Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what SHALL we do? Brian, BE BAPTIZED is an ACTIVE VERB:
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, AND be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the remission of sins, and ye SHALL receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.)
A person who BELIEVETH is a person who COMPLIETH. If you believe you MAY then be baptized and THEN have God remit your sins and THEN give you life.
(3) "Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ" (Acts 2:36).
(4) "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: (5) While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (6) Since we have now been justified by his blood, (7) how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!" (Rom. 5:8-9).
(Justified does not mean SAVED: Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also SHOULD walk in newness of life.) <>
These are the essentials of Christian faith. It is this COREmessage ABOUTJesus
that we share In common with othe
Bible-believing, cross-proclaiming,
resurrection-confessing, born-again persons
that constitutes us a church.
ESSENTIALS means that NOTHING Jesus taught and inspired Apostles heard in a "face to face" encounter with God and wrote for our READING (the masculine form) and MEMORY are essential. Now that Rubel has stripped off all of the APPLE he preaches that He is to "partner with God to work out OUR salvation" which he INTERPRETS to mean "a new APPLE which only the community or commune" can work out: individuals are not "lone rangers."
There is a lot MORE core ABOUT Jesus but Shelly totally removes Jesus Christ as the ONLY teacher when we teach that which has been taught: Jesus can save you but NOT teach you what the Apostles thought were the teachings BY Jesus.
That means ecumenical affirmation, as Shelly makes certain, the Stoneite instrumentalists who are ECUMENICAL in seeking to force peaceable churches to become MUSICAL.
That is the Just-Jesus dogma which Rubel etal hallucinate because they THINK that Paul said that he had resolved to PREACH only Christ and Him Crucified. That is terminal ignorance or terminal deception! Paul said that he had decied to KNOW only Christ and Him crucified. Paul defines that in 2 Corinthians to DISQUALIFY the rich and famous who do not LIVE and SUFFER and risk their LIVES like Christ in order to preach the gospel.
Outside the ESSENCE of the gospel,
there are OTHER features that reflect OUR HISTORY and CONSENSUS interpretations of the LARGER biblical message.
Pople like Rubel and some at Rochester repeat the MANTRA and using words like sectarian, legalistic, patternists, traditionalists and other RACA words, like Goebbels, know that if you tell a lie often enough people will believe it. Like Hitler if you tell it in a GREAT DEMONSTRATION intended to prove to people that they are "losers" already and need to JOIN EARLY. The CORE issue of the eternal troublerrs in Zion is the Musical Worship Team leading to Instrumental Music. SAVED FROM WRATH means to be SAVED FROM ORGE meaning ORGY which is exactly what the JUBILATORS are promoting. Salvation is FROM the Crooked Generation meaning the SKOLION SINGERS wich was the new wineskin NON-Israelites who ruled Jerusalem.
Rubel Shelly: seems to agree with those of whom he writes:They had to strain the story of Jesus through philosophical sieves. They had to create and clarify special terms. They made entrance into their circles a matter of "enlightenment" as reflected in peculiar vocabulary and interpretations.
In the meanwhile, the CORE gospel has survived two millennia now in its NARRATIVE FORM of telling the big story through collections of little ones about Jesus.
Rochester are at the WWDJ stage: Have you utterly repudiated the Bible and the universal Biblical and church History belief that it is the TEXTBOOK for our learning and as authority in FAITH AND PRACTICE? Rubel is not a believer in the Biblical or classical sense of the word because, one suspects, he uses it as a PATTERN BOOK after all rather as something to be READ and REHEARSED as we REST from the neo-pagan "worship" rituals of watching disturbed people CLAIMING to be mediators using the POPULAR ARTS which defines HYPOCRITES and DEMAGOGUES.
If you could prove that the Bible is NOT capable of teaching and MOLDING people through edification or education, THEN you are still left with the fact that to ACCEPT PAY for pretending (meaning of hypocrite) to be a Christ-follower while denouncing those who have BIBLE and HISTORY universally in their favor is, according to Charles Spurgeion, so low ethically and morally that he struggled to find a word to define it.
Has the Rochester church of Christ gone astray … and how far?
December 27 2007, 10:47 PM
Ken, the church’s website lists interestingly different types of “worship and praise” as follows:
Cornerstone, 8:30 a.m.
Encounter, 10 a.m.
These two assemblies both feature an invigorating blend of worship songs and styles and an engaging message from Patrick Mead.
Mosaic, 11:30 a.m.
Experience the love of God in a non-traditional, celebratory worship and communion experience. This growing service is creating new traditions by communicating biblical truths in creative, compelling and contemporary ways.
New traditions? Communicating biblical truths in creative, compelling ways?
I have tried to log into Patrick Mead's blog with no luck. I will e-mail him and tell him that I have downloaded his three sermons on "God and Instruments of Worship" in three parts. If I could get a printed version I could dialog with him sooner.
In addition, a fourth sermon is "Acapella from a Postmodern Perspective."
Now, God never had anything to do with Instruments of Worship! What Patrick missed as did all preachers is that God had abandoned the nation to "worship the starry host" because of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai. When the elders fired God and hired a senior minister God warned that they were beyond redemption (the old Samuel story we also missed out on while the girlings were outing themselves too much. The national sacrificial system was not COMMANDED but IMPOSED because they were being told how to worship just like the Canaanites, Egyptians and Babylonians.
Anyone who can speak of "postmodern perspective" is not reading off the word but "beyond the sacred page" and is probably being handled by a member of the NACC such as David Faust as the latest morning glory.
Patrick is spread all over the internet and I am sure that he is preaching the instrumental positon. I will do a rebuttal pretending that Patrick is being USED by a NACC agent or one of the TOTALLY-GONE-EFFEMINATE few which have been seduced to use instruments.
They list all of the PSALLO Greek texts to identify PLUCKING but even then psallo just means pluck and it might be speaking of the hairs of a younger boy "youth minister." In ALL of the passages they LUST to use it is always the universal association between religious music, sexuality and homosexuality--sure even in the temple at times. Even the code word Acapella is a CODE WORD for A cappella meaning the castrated singers USED in the Sistine Chapel where instruments were not permitted and the universal--beginning with the Levites--FALSETTO just didn't hack it when the Pope heard the castrated "musical worship team" singing a new form of harmony.
Patrick also preaches "Make a Joyful Noise!." Well, that is exactly what it was: God never called it music. In fact the Qahal, synagogue or church in the wilderness OUTLAWED making "vocal or instrument rejoicing sounds." That was reserved for signals and the synagogue was a SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE and no preaching or music was allowed when The Spirit OF Christ is being the teacher when the elders "teach that which has been revealed."
If any one has heard these sermons and tell us what Patrick is teaching it would speed up the review process. I would not expect Patrick to come out in the open.
Patrick Mead: repeating all of the lies of the NACC handlers.
December 28 2007, 9:40 PM
Summary of Patrick Mead: God and Instrumental Worship # 1: we listened to sermon #1 but we COULD have made it up from the NACC handouts and those USED by them to steal some church houses of widows.
Speaking style consistent with the Music Moveons. Evident that Patrick is reading off the Nacc Play book and therefore does not know nor quote either the context or the story line. Patrick is PROMOTING the same "worship of the starry host" (Acts 7 etc) to which God ABANDONED the nation BECAUSE of Musical Idolatry at Mount Sinai.
There is no reason to expect either Patrick or those being led astray to know what really happened in the Old Testament. For that reason, all of His proof texts promote that which The Spirit OF Christ in all of the prophets radically condemned. We wonder why no one uses the prophets to promote Instrumental Worship by God's DIRECT COMMAND.
Some of the examples speak of the women who went in procession singing and playing instruments around the Temple. The words for SING and PLAY prove that with all NATIONAL temples, it would be plagued by prostitutes and Sodomites which is the mark of all Priestcraft.
Furthermore, all of the proof texts Patrick's handlers use PROVE that those who plucked the harp strings were grooming younger males whose hairs had been plucked for the act of pedarasty. There is no missing the point that the tiny few churches led by bonded buddies have turned the "school of the Bible" into a totally effeminate ritual. Not surprising since John identifies the Mother of Harlots (Rev 17) who USES the "lusted after fruits" as speakers with a funnee style, singers and instrument players whom John identified as SORCERERS who Had deceived the whole world.
These "lusted after fruits" in Revelation are the same "basket of summer FRUITS" in Amos who defines the singers and musicians as still worshiping the starry hosts. In the process the were STARVING the people for lack of the Word and they WOULD go into captivity. Sounds like Rochester has gone all the way with lots of girlish giggles in the background. These are identified as DOGS (wolves Acts 20) or catamites identified by their singing style. Paul said that BECAUSE of the DOGS outside, worship must be IN the spirit as OPPOSED to IN the flesh. In John 4 Jesus identified the silent spirit as the ONLY place God will seek us. No! God does not like NOISE and any singer or musician or "funee" speaker who went into the Holy Place would be EXECUTED by his brethren.
Here are some of the USUAL prooftexts found in handouts by the NACC as handlers and defined by men like Max Lucado, Rick Atchley, Mark Henderson, Milton Jones etal. We have reviewed ALL of the major documents all from the NACC and I can assure you that they lie about each and every Bible passage and historical comments. That is what means TAKING YOU CAPTIVE.
Psalm 90 woman and man responsive singing
Standared Fare: Sunday Morning will be A CAPELLA
Proof Texts:
Genesis 4 when the Jubal family used musical instruments.
SOMETHING wrong with Cain.
Numbers 10 used to call assembly together
Josh 6:4 commands in battle
Gen 31: Laban entertainment
1 Kings show honor to the king
1 Sam 16:23
Psa 150 instruments, God said DO THIS. Not just a suggestion but a DIRECT COMMAND
Make a joyful noise before the Lord
Exodus 15:20-21, Miriam Leads the women OUT to escape,
Ark of the Covenant, rejoiced and danced naked
Psalms 33:2; Psalm 43: Psalm 68:25
Church of Christ traditionally NOT used instruments. Use with Video, second and third services.
Conviction in churches of Christ.
Psalm 68:5 singers after musicians maidens playing tambourines. Funny? Offended. Laugh and PLAY and sing
Psalm 98:6 harp, shout for joy before the Lord.
2 Chronicles 29:25-28 Direct Command of the Lord, david, gad commanded by the LORD, through prophets
1 Chronicles 16:4-6 Levites Ark of the Lord, Asaph "Four instruments" done in the temple. COMMANDEDS
1 Chronicles 25: singers, pagentry. God loved Art. Mocks those who bought church took out stained glass windows,
God Ordained the temple, God TOLD THEM to add music, dance,
Made replacement Hezekiah, cried.
2 Chron 29.27-28
singing began, whole ASSEMBLY bowed and worshipped, until BURNT offering
Lyre (no sound board), Harp (hollow), 10 string harp zither dulcimer, Shopfar (ram's horn, bleat),
Long Horn war secular worship
David made sure that instruments be used in worship. God liked the NOISE. Mountains and rivers praise Him. Closer to god in a NOISY place.
[made list of instruments]
What happened to the instruments: God does not CHANGE. Doctrines are fulfilled and ceased.
Put in animals under the law. Blood and gore and smell: Never LIKED it.
When Jesus died He was the sacrificed because work DONE. Not a new law.
Marriage, ceased.
Food laws changed.
No more Sabbath regulations.
Did He change His mind on music?: startling how little used in worship. Used by God in HEAVEN.
WHY IS DIFFERENCE? INSTRUMENTS began to disappear when temple ended.
Bad guys stripped off instruments.
Hang harps on willows, wind blows continued to make music.
People HAD to worship without a TEMPLE Worshipped God with what they HAD.
People gathered together is called SYNAGOGUE.
Not ONE ASPECT OF SYNAGOGUE approved by GOD! God accepted because that is what they HAD.
The CHANGE in music not mandated by God but by what they had. No instruments, expensive, hard to maintain.
Jesus sang and went out: not because they hated harps. They sang only witrhout instruments because that is what they HAD to offer God and He accepted it.
June 30 instrumental worship on Saturday.
We will address some of these but Patrick has poured out HONEY BUCKETS of stuff making raw assertions and does not intend to tell the whole story. Therefore, it takes a lot of WORK to turn Lye Soap into 99 44/100 percent pure truth. If you know anyone at Rochester let them chime in and if I am mistaken by Patrick he WILL give an answer for deliberately sowing discord. If not we will speak for him. His members want to know why this is happening.
It SHOULD be enough to grasp that the Monarchy was God's ABANDONMENT to worship the starry host. So that their Temple was built by Hiram the Masonic Architect and all of the ARTSY stuff is what we and Ezekiel 8 call IDOLS because it was BY REQUEST a temple for Sabazianism which is the same end-time Dionysus NEW WINESKIN by NEW WINESKINNERS treading out the grapes.
You are free to do a rebuttal or question me directly on e-mail. The review is in images and may be slow to load but lets me keep the formatting:
Before looking at Patrick's FLOOD of "proofs" none of which related to the congregational meetings of the "civilians" in the Qahal, synagogue or church in the wilderness where vocal and instrumental rejoicing was OUTLAWED, it is important to see that Jesus claimed to have HIDDEN the truth from anyone who lifts prooftexts out of context and CANNOT see the massive and radical condemnation of instrumental noises: this is always the MARK of people trying to silence the Word of God. If you listen to the new musical "worship services" it is clear that when Jesus is replaced by women or the effeminate it is a mark of falling into the promised delusions.
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 70.156.8.44 on Jun 4, 2008 4:59 PM
This is the link to the Crooked Generation treated by Jesus as a RACE so perverted and truth hating that He refused to speak to them other than through parables. If the false teachers cannot understand that all of the Bible POINTS to something outside of it they will miss the fact that the crooked race or the race of vipers are the people who "sing while getting drunk on wine." They are well documented in the literature which not even the best Greek scholar reads because they don't look where Paul and others point. This is a collection of comments only:
Contrary to the claim all of those ignoring all of the Word of God and trying to IMPOSE what was the curse of God on Israel because of musical idolatry. And they all read off the PAGES of the NACC all of which deliberately twist all of the Bible and historical scholars. At the same time they are utterly silent about the prophets who UNIQUELY spoke by the Spirit OF Christ who utterly condemn instruments a identify the SUPPLIER as Lucifer or Satan. So, no good to label truth speakers as of the Devil. Didn't the Jewish legalistic sectarians do that to Jesus who spoke VOLUMES condemning musical performers. Here is a link to the Burgess material which identifies the PSALLO word as pointing to perverts:
Continuing to review Patrick's errors from the Old Testament but first to MARK music and the promise of Jesus that He would utterly take away the ability to understand the Word. Again, may be a slow load.
Jesus is going to point to Isaiah and Ezekiel--guided by the Spirit OF Christ--to tell God's FULLER story and identify the Scribes and Pharisees as hypocrites by pointing out "rhetoricians, singers and instrument players." Not surprising, John almost at the end of the Bible identifies them as SORCERERS who HAD deceived the whole world.
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 70.156.8.44 on Jun 4, 2008 4:41 PM
Re: Disturbing Things at Rochester College: A Student's Perspective
January 4 2008, 11:06 PM
This may be tedious background but you need to understand that there is no exception to the rule for anyone to find where music is used in a religious sense and does not point to Lucifer "the singing and harp-playing prostitute" in the garden of Eden, getting people drunk with music to steal their property, warfare, sacrificial exorcism, prostitutes and sodomites.
Therefore, when people deliberately sow discord they must of necessity lie about every musical passage in the Bible and in church history.
Note continued from previous post:
See the TWANGING ARROW as the background to external melody which Paul prohibited. There are a dozen or more Greek words associating warfare, shooting people to hurt and musical instruments.
See how Isaiah 30 shows how God will drive His enemies into "hell" using the same wind, string and percussion instruments Lucifer (Zoe) brought into the Garden of Eden.
ROCHESTER CHURCH OF CHRIST Review of Patrick Mead #2. Patrick asks "how it all got started" teaching that the Christians were too timid to CONTINUE to use instruments. Most of the scholars quoted to prove that the church never used instruments are quoted in a new and "troubling" way of twisting facts.
Patrick claims that the church CEASED the use of instrumental music. He associates those noble scholars who explained WHY instruments were the marks of a fall from grace, by first labeling them as murderers, tyrants, deviants and Jew Haters. He claims that Alexander Campbell got his anti-instrumental views from John Knox whom he labels as a murderer.
Quoting Clement who makes man (the race) a more beautify instrument for SPEAKING the Word, he intimates that he was more interested in worshiping the male than refuting instruments.
This is a quick listen and review and I will correct if I have misunderstood.
I will continue to look at some of the "proof" which Patrick says proves that "God not only TOLERATED instrumental music but COMMANDED it." However, he uses the usual "calm the nerves" by saying they will not use instruments on SUNDAY as if using instruments to train up the children is not a problem. The driven purpose by beginning with instruments is to GROW your own instrumental church.
Is this reeally the MARK this church wants to OUT?
“President of Christian college in Michigan resigns”
June 4 2008, 4:06 PM
Source: THE CHRISTIAN CHRONICLE (June 2008)
_______________________________
President of Christian college in Michigan resigns
ROCHESTER HILLS, Mich. — The president of Rochester College since 2003 has resigned but plans to remain as an English professor.
Mike Westerfield said he had considered stepping aside for several months before submitting his resignation letter recently.
“As most of you know, these final few months have been challenging yet productive,” he said at spring graduation ceremonies.
Those challenges included renegotiating the institution’s total indebtedness with the Church Development Fund, he said.
“I believe the time has come for a new president who will move the school to a new level of academic excellence in Christian community,” he said.
Rubel Shelly, best known as minister of the Woodmont Hills church in Nashville, Tenn., from 1978 to 2005, will serve as interim president, giving trustees time to search for a successor, the board announced.
Shelly began work at Rochester as a visiting professor of philosophy and religion in 2005, becoming a full-time professor in 2006.
“The future is rich with possibilities for Rochester College,” Shelly said. “Donors have come forward with significant financial gifts, and we are entering into exciting new partnerships within the Rochester community.”
Rochester College, established in 1959 and once known as Michigan Christian College, is a four-year liberal arts college associated with Churches of Christ.
Re: “President of Christian college in Michigan resigns”
June 15 2008, 12:52 AM
Calvin:
Don't be surprised with anything you see here at concernedmembers.com. Be sure of this though....this site and those that make up this unfortunate family are in NO way spokesman for the church of Christ.
They never will be. The only talk I hear about this site, from church of Christ members, is that this site poses an embarrassment to the church as a whole.
An embarrassment, and nothing more.
I
Re: “President of Christian college in Michigan resigns”
June 16 2008, 9:50 AM
I wonder how many church of Christ members Dave has personally heard or read who have allegedly remarked that this site is an "embarrassment" to the church of Christ. He should at least give us some true, accurate numbers. Were those people from hundreds of churches of Christ all around the country or just a small handful from Dave's own congregation? Were those people primarily from conservative, traditional, mainstream churches of Christ or from liberal churches of Christ bent on "change"? And to be complete, would Dave also care to tell us, honestly, how many people he has heard or read who spoke favorably of Concerned Members?
As I have said before, Dave is well known for transferring his own beliefs and desires onto everyone else. Whatever Dave believes and desires becomes "everyone's" beliefs and desires, or so Dave thinks. Dave is a "member" of the church of Christ, yet he constantly lobbies for instrumental music in worship and other "changes." As a result of Dave's passionate desire, "everyone" in the church of Christ wants IM in worship, or so Dave has convinced himself. It is no secret that Dave rabidly despises Concerned Members, so again, "everyone" in the church of Christ despises Concerned Members, or so Dave has convinced himself.
Re: “President of Christian college in Michigan resigns”
June 29 2008, 11:44 AM
When William (Bill Crump) states about me
"....yet he constantly lobbies for instrumental music in worship and other "changes." As a result of Dave's passionate desire, "everyone" in the church of Christ wants IM in worship, or so Dave has convinced himself"
William is not telling the truth.
More importantly he is not telling the truth and he knows it. He knows that I have stated that I would not worship at a church that uses instrumental music. He also knows that I consider instrumental music and a capella preferrence. The singing is done whether with a style of four part harmony or instrumental music. The church that I have and always will worship with will be a capella. Again, William knows this for he has heard me say it numerious times. Why would he lie against me like this then?
The untruth that William malicioulsy spoke of is that I lobby for instrumental music. I never have and never will. William knows this, but his underlying immaturity pervades his reasoning. The fact that I will not condemn those who care to use instrumental music brings William to invent or conjure up in his mind false diatrbibe against me.
I am a regular at a site called Faithsite Premium. William and Donnie Cruz and others from this site go there to needle many of us there because we don't conform to their traditions. We do not say that their traditions are bad, sinful, etc. but they condemn anything that would take the church away from that traditional posture (praise teams, clapping, lifting holy hands).
To push my point about this site and William (Bill Crump) let me offer to you that he has been banned multiple times from Faithsite. Why? Because he broke the rules of Christian behavior there at Faithsite. His behavior was found to be antiChristian, and for that he was banned. Donnie Cruz, also of this site, has been banned mulitple times from Faithsite for the same reasoning.
ServantforHim (brother Dave) writes that Dr. Crump was banned from another site. Is anyone sure about that? Who ban him? Who gave a reason for the ban?
It is true that he and several others had a problem signing in at that site for a while but no one has ever confessed to banning anyone, that is, unless Dave is making a confession that he was the one.
I have done a quick review of C. Leonard Allen's take on the TRINITY as necessary because the Godhead had COMMUNITY within THEMselves. Of course, he uses other "doctors of the law" to define this new community of persons which is a radical departure from the classical trinity which proves that any communing was between God who as father THOUGHT and His breath expelled wordS which became His Son. Indeed, communing within oneself is a common practice of all well developed humans.
Proves that you don't need the Bible to be a Bible scholar:
1Tim. 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart,
and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: [hypocrite of Scribes and Pharisees
Jesus identified as speakers, singers and instrument players.]
1Tim. 1:6 From which some having swerved have tu
understanding neither what they say,
nor whereof they affirm.
Titus 1:10 For there are many unruly and
vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
Titus 1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped,
who subvert whole houses,teaching things which they ought not,
for filthy lucres sake.
Lee speaking for the "scholarly" lies that the Campbells wanted to FELLOWSHIP the denominations says:Thomas Campbell argued in the D & A that nothing could be made a test of fellowship that didn't have a "thus saith the Lord" behind it. This doesn't necessarily exclude, in my view, churches adopting practices or traditions not specifically commanded in the NT (CoCs do this all the time anyway), as the D & A is usually interpreted to forbid, but only means such things cannot be made into terms of communion.
The Declaration and Address specificially does not speak of DENOMINATIONS but of INDIVIDUALS: It says NOTHING about tests of fellowship but of INDIVIDUALS judging INDIVIDUALS for the private opinions they hold. Campbell writes under the premise that the SECTS limited DENOMINATIONAL PARTICIPATION based on their personal opinions for which they had no express authority. As a Calvinists who watched the State Presbyterians of Scotland ADOPT the use of instruments which SPLIT the group into MANY sects, Thomas Campbell can be represented by dozens of his fellow Biblical Presbyterians who wrote extensively on the use of instruments. The BASIS was making a test of fellowship DENOMINATIONALLY on something not SPECIFICIALLY commanded in the Bible.
FROM the series of events which have taken place in the Churches for many years past, especially in this Western country, as well as from what we know in general of the present state of things in the Christian world, we are persuaded
that it is high time for us not only to think, but also to act, for ourselves;
to see with our own eyes,
and to take all our measures
directly and immediately from the Divine standard;
to this alone we feel ourselves Divinely bound to be conformed,
as by this alone WE must be judged.
We are also persuaded that as no man can be judged for his brother,
so no man can judge for his brother;
every man must be allowed to judge for himself,
as every man must bear his own judgment-
-must give account of himself to God.
From reading 101a we understand that those LEAVING the EXCLUSIVE sects must not IMPOSE anything which is not from the "divine standard."
A. Because the OTHERS are the EXCLUSIVIE Sects even when DENOUNCING INSTRUMENTS through all of Campbell's experience, they ALSO are bound by the Divine Word.
B. His standard was that they should INCLUDE only what is commanded in the Divine Standard.
C. We are also of opinion that as the Divine word is equally binding upon all,
so all lie under an equal obligation to be bound by it,
and it alone; and not by any human interpretation of it;
D. Because it was the SECTS whom he identified as JUDGING and EXCLUSIVE, they do not have any right to judge those who THINK FOR THEMSELVES from the DIVINE STANDARD
E. Those denominational groups who excluded both Thomas and Alexander because of THEIR THEACINGS from the Bible, have NO RIGHT to exclude them unless the REFORMERS practices VIOLATE specific CENI.
and that, therefore, no man has a right to judge his brother,
except in so far as he manifestly violates the express letter of the law.
The Declaration and Address INCLUDES those who AGREE with the Declaration and Address: it would be beyond the pale to think that the Campbells intended to FELLOWSHIP exactly those they were ABANDONING because they DID NOT follow Biblical standards and JUDGED those who followed the Bible rather than their CREEDS.
V. That this Society, formed for the sole purpose of promoting simple evangelical Christianity,
shall, to the utmost of its power, countenance and support such ministers,
Countenance means: to extend approval or toleration to : sanction
and such only,
as exhibit a manifest conformity to the original standard in conversation and doctrine, in zeal and diligence;
only such as reduce to practice that simple original form of Christianity,
expressly EXHIBITED upon the sacred page;
Campbell EXPLICITELY and LOUDLY said that he WOULD NOT FELLOWSHIP those who did not
reduce to practice that simple original form of Christianity,
expressly EXHIBITED upon the sacred page;
He would NOT support those who did not follow the EXPRESS Word of God:
Support means a (1): to promote the interests or cause of (2): to uphold or defend as valid or right
Campbell said that he would NOT extend approval, tolerate, sanction or support those who DO NOT trust the Word for out faith and practice.
Lee can you grasp that? You need to throw away your "scholarly" junk and read the truth.
The Reformers absolutely followed the CENI principle.
They ABSOLUTELY meant
without attempting to inculcate
anything of human authority,
of private opinion, or inventions of men,
as having any place in the constitution, faith, or worship, of the Christian Church,
or anything as matter of Christian faith or duty,
for which there can not be expressly produced a "Thus saith the Lord,
either in express terms,
or by approved precedent.
I worry about people who twist that to say that the Campbells intended to INCLUDE those who did not agree to NOT ATTEMPTING to Inclucate anything not SPECIFICIALLY commanded.
The following statement makes me wonder if you have ever read the Bible: assuredly ALL recorded historical scholars and founders of denominations KNEW that God uses the INSTRUMENT as a MARK of those who told God to shut His Face. That needs no proving.
To be consistent with his own views, he would have had to agree that the use or non-use of IM was a matter of opinion, as Scripture nowhere addresses the issue.
If this was REMOTELY true, then Campbell would not INCLUCATE anything of HUMAN AUTHORITY. If he would not INCLUCATE then he would not SUPPORT instruments.
If the Bible DOES NOT speak of instruments tnen YOU are judging others and INCLUCATING human opinion which is WILL WORSHIP.
But, literacy 101a knows that MUSIC is sourced from Satan or Lucifer the singing and harp playing prostitute, warriors, sacrificial exorcists, prostitutes and Sodomites
This web site is not part of or approved by any Church!
...........................THE BOOK
What Happened At the Madison Church of Christ?
There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.
This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison
Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource
references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least
you will recognize the signs early on.
Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't
know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.
Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was
one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.
It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of
it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word
of Jesus Christ.
At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority
of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly
realm.
They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and
to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.
The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan.
Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books,
seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change
so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....
At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to
be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched
through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the
"Community Church Movement"
Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready,
or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the
plans very nature, it had to be secret.
The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was
never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last
15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.
The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the
elders went along unwittingly.
This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell
something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill
in some of the timeline.
To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the
background materials in the first of the book.
This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be
printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our
web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison
Here is the list of players;
5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten
commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
