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Disturbing Things at Rochester College: A Student's Perspective

October 31 2006 at 7:41 PM
Tacitus  (Login TacitusQuestion)
from IP address

Hello Church of Christ Members,

I am a student currently enrolled in Rochester College in Rochester Hills, Michigan, and I came across this site yesterday while looking for information on Rubel Shelly and the "Emergent Church." Needless to say, I was shocked to see just how famous (or infamous) Rubel Shelly is within many of the Churches of Christ - and even more shocked just how much information the college has kept from students about his background and opinions. He was presented to the majority of students with great enthusiasm as a remarkable theological leader. Since the arrival of Rubel Shelly, Rochester College has been moving in a startlingly controversial direction, however. The following is my account of the happenings at Rochester College pertaining to Rochester's new change of direction. I apologize for the length of this report, but I feel it is necessary to give all relevant details in order to aaccurately portray the troubling events that have took place at Rochester College recently.

"Theologians Under Hitler" Event
Nov. 17, 2005

(See this article first for a summary -

What this article doesn't say is that the comments recorded by the media at the event, the Detroit Free Press, included only the more moderate quotes from Dr. Shelly. Ingnatius Insight offers a decent review of the event, although they were limited to writing off of what the Detroit Free Press chose to report. I, on the other hand, had the opportunity to attend the event myself, and I got the "uncensored" version of Shelly's comments. One of the documentary's main driving points was the issue of "Could it (Holocaust) happen again?" Several students responded in the affirmative to Shelly's recorded comments, but Shelly took it a step further. When students chose to ask the question "Could it happen again?" directly to the panel of Rochester professors, Shelly quickly spoke up. He replied that it indeed has happened again - with Hurricane Katrina. Enough said.

Black History Month Controversy
Feb. 15, 2006

(Please check for information as the speech took place in Rochester College's Assembly and was not covered by the media)

After hearing the speech, I was skeptical about some of its claims that were supposedly "truth." I did some research and discovered that not only was the speaker's "A World Without Black People" section of his Black History Month speech riddled with historical errors - including some outright lies - it was also plagiarized from an anonymous internet e-mail chainletter! By looking at I had discovered that story had been floating around for years in chainletter circles and was decisively debunked by Snope's myth busters team. The speaker, however, read it as if it was his own material (he had copy-and-pasted into his speech text) and did not give credit to its author nor did he say that it was someone else's material. In light of this, I joined with other Rochester students who were as stunned as I was that such intellectually dishonest and pilfered material was presented as fact to our asssembly. Together, we wrote an article to one of Rochester College's Deans, Candace Cain. Despite all the evidence we found, however, the Rochester College Administration dodged the accusations, refusing to address any of the blatantly false claims and plagiarized nature of the "speech." Due to the hostile environment at the school, I and Aquinas, the first student I told about my findings, decided to take a stance of anonymity to protect our identities. We did not ask for fame, credit, or recognition obviously, but instead requested that the administration address the clear plagiarism and violation of the college's own rules in front of the student body; the page provided enough evidence even without the blog.

"The Shield" Rochester College Newspaper Article by Dr. John Barton
April-May 2006

(Please check our blog for 1) the post containing the actual text by Dr. Barton here: and 2) the response to his article on the blog:

In the May Edition of The Shield, Rochester College's campus newspaper, Dr. John Barton Barton - apparently a cohort of Rubel Shelly in the "Wineskins" progressive (a.k.a. liberal) Church of Christ group - wrote an article dealing with the controversial Black History Month speech, even paying attention to the plagiarized section. However, Dr. Barton neither mentions the URL that proves the "A World Without Black People" section of the speech was plagiarized, nor he does he state that the speech has PROVEN lies and inaccuracies. Instead, he says "Inaccuracies, if indeed present, are unfortunate and I would suggest they need to be investigated before the speech is used again in a public venue." By ignoring valid and verifiable third-party evidence, Dr. Barton robs Rochester College students of the opportunity to discover for themselves whether or not the speech was plagiarized and critically examine the "facts" presented in it. Rochester College often claims to its students that critical thinking is of the highest value to them, but the Black History Month incident in particular shows that critical thinking is only valued when it AGREES WITH THEM.

"Emerging Faith" Presentation Series in Rochester College Assembly
Oct. 2006 and (upcoming) Nov. 2006

In a series of assembly presentations featuring Dr. Keith Huey, Dr. Rubel Shelly, and Chris Lindsey on the days of October 17, 24, and 31, the students of Rochester College have received lessons on the "Emergent Church" movement. Supposedly covering its major features, goals, and leaders, the speakers were given the nearly the entire assembly time to present the Emergent Church" Once again, I began to research the Emergent Church to see if what I was being told in assembly matched with reality. Out of three, Dr. Huey presented the most honest and informative explanation of the Emergent Church. Dr. Shelly, on the other hand, gave what another student involved with the QuestionTheCollege blog said was "A speech that could have been given in any Christian congregation" while supposedly being an specific lesson on the Emergent Church. Shelly noted nothing of the Emergent Church's postmodernist focus and its syncretic attitudes.

In addition, Dr. Huey mentioned in his presentation that the Emergent Church's defining statement that we "do not have a monopoly on truth." Dr. Shelly made no mention of this statement, much less criticized it. What happened to Jesus's claim that "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6)!? Jesus does not only HAVE a monopoly on truth, He IS the monopoly on truth. Shelly presented an appealing traditional message of "practice what you preach" without giving students actual information that explains why the Emergent Church is different from traditional churches.

In the third installment of the "Emerging Faith" series, Chris Lindsey gave a worship-oriented service fashioned after the Emergent Church. In it, Lindsey expressed his frustration at having difficultly getting close to God by reading the Bible. Giving the analogy of how a student memorizing the statistics of his favorite baseball player does cannot actually "know" that player because of his study of the player's athletic performance, Lindsey said that we cannot necessarily "know" God by reading the Bible. I find this analogy flawed to the extreme. As 2 Timothy 3:16 says "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work", we learn about God by reading His Word. Baseball statistics do not contain the personal thoughts and feelings, only athletic performance. The Bible IS the very Word of God - it is a message from God Himself to mankind.

Note: My main intention in writing this (as well as the intentions of other Rochester student writers will be joining in this endeavor as well) to simply "let the truth be known" about what's going on at Rochester College. Rochester College portrays itself as a Bible-believing, conservative Christian institution, but it has shown itself to be anything but that. I hope that you will pass this information on to your friends and church members - it's time donors and visitors see past the facade Rochester College is putting on to attract and maintain students and funds.

Final Note: This is only the beginning of the accounts of troubling incidents at Rochester College. I and other students will write more as time permits.

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Ken Sublett
(no login)

More Copied Stuff

November 1 2006, 12:31 AM 

I managed to retire at about 48 but Rubel Shelly single-handed spoiled too much of it.

You are correct: I don't think that Rubel ever had an original idea. If you see him preaching a series or publishing a new book you can find it all on the internet. Max Lucado, as I remember it says that he gets an idea and then buys up all of the books on the subject. Then he puts it into his own limpy style with a team of editors examining each word for its punch.

Rubel makes it plain that he detests the church of Christ probably because the strait shooters treated him with contempt when he began on his women and music theme. I have reviewed many of his waning sermons where he cannot preach without pouring out fires on the heads of the non-instrumentalists. Not only does he not have the truth about churches of Christ and racism, he thinks that the Restoration Movement invented all of the evil in the world including bad breath. While denying that the Bible or anyone but legalists ever believed in Commands, Examples and Inferences, any reader can see that there is little exception among the historic scholars and the Bible.

Here is something I posted when I read that Shelly was using a Missional Madness book in his "ministry" series. I don't know how one who has insisted on being master could write about ministry:

There is never more than one or two good witnesses in most groups and you have the ball. You need to keep your head down because these people will hurt you one way or another. Anyone who would INFLITRATE and DIVERT a peaceable, happy church of Christ to, as they say, make it a "theater for holy entertainment" will (as they promise you) do ANYTHING using their mantra to BRING IN MORE SOULS.

So, you have Shelly and his FRIEND in high places and a BOARD who is as Isaiah or someone said "sleeping dogs" and they are probably NOT going to wake up because those with CHARISMA have a way of singing them with their scorpion tails.

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Tim Grahl
(no login)

Rochester College

November 8 2006, 5:50 PM 

I feel very sad about the happenings at Rochester College. But, at least one member of the administration was "warned" personally by me. I live in Michigan and heard that Rubel was going to be on the staff at RC and emailed one of the administrators of the college. Basically, I asked them how they could allow Rubel to teach the students and still claim to hold to the teachings of the church of Christ. After all, Rubel's last church was a church of Christ and was "changed" to a community church WHILE Rubel was attending there. \

I basically got the "run around" and could tell that at least some of the administrators had not done their homework prior to inviting Rubel.

I have expect Kevin J. Anderson to start teaching there any day now.

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Ken Sublett
(no login)

Can you be specific?

November 8 2006, 11:17 PM 

I have followed Rubel's sermons which are posted on line and I assure you that he is NOT remotely connected to the "mainlinne" church of Christ. Without defending those who gave him no quarter, I can assure you that he claims to 'take liberties' with the Bible, believes that it has all been "sifted" by time, evolution and by Einstein and Heisenberg and takes every opening to spread hate among good people. He "takes liberties" with the Restoration Movement and historical facts and misrepresents it at every turn. The ANTI-instrumental "sectarians" specificially rips him open because he PRETENDS that the Bible and most church history defends the position of the Church of Christ. The thesis that if you oppose false teaching then YOU are being judgmental is just PSYCHOLOGICAL VIOLENCE.

I simply do not believe anyone who pretends that there is no such thing as authority based on commands, examples and inferences and that the BIBLE says nothing to condemn music or any kind of mental arousal.

He denies and preaches that you as an individual have the right to read, interpret and speak the Word. Therefore, if you oppose him and the new MINISTRY program then that PROVES that you have a bad problem. The "slighting" by the STAFF who have to be co-conspirators is just another proof that you are BENEITH their role of "minister becomes master."

However, God sent YOU out to test the spirits and speak the Word and you might BEGIN at Rochester. I would hope that you would post handouts or transcripts of tapes and refute them point by point. If you let their heresy stand without teaching the Bible and historical fact then you cannot complain. You can post that or mail that without revealing your identity which is important if you expect to graduate.

You can post them here (long posts ok) or e-mail them to Donnie and we can DIALOG and hold "church" by speaking that which has been spoken. They THINK that you are a mouse and have no influence but that is NOT the case. When you SEND OUT the truth it will be read and have an effect. We all get a shot at What Will you Do with Jesus: you may not get another test.

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Tom Brite
(no login)

Re: Can you be specific?

November 9 2006, 9:42 AM 

Ken, thanks for an excellent post.

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Jimmy Wren
(no login)

Supporting Churches of Rochester...

November 9 2006, 5:26 PM 

Here is a list of some of the churches who support Rochester. I personally would not attend a congregation that would take money from the free will offerings that were given for the work of the church and the care of the destitute and spend it on highter education.

Associates of Rochester College Founded in 1959 to Provide Financial Support for Rochester College; email -

Brighton Church of Christ, 6026 Rickett Rd., Brighton MI

Website:; Email:

Gateway Church of Christ, 14950 Northline Rd, Southgate MI 48195

Lake Orion Church of Christ, 1080 Hemingway, Lake Orion MI 48361 Website:; Email:

Lincoln Park Church of Christ, 2957 Fort St., Lincoln Park, MI 48146

Metro Church of Christ, 40100 Dodge Park, Sterling Heights, MI 48313
Website:; Email:

North Warren Church of Christ, 14150 E. Thirteen Mile Rd., Warren, MI 48065
Website:; Email:

Oakland Church of Christ, 22355 W. Eleven Mile Rd., Southfield MI
Website:; Email:

Parkside Church of Christ, 17200 West Outer Dr., Dearborn Heights MI 48127

Plymouth Church of Christ, 22355 W. Eleven Mile Rd., Southfield MI 48170

Rochester Church of Christ, 250 W. Avon Rd.. Rochester Hills, MI 48307

Roseville Church of Christ, 17415 Eleven Mile Rd., Roseville MI 48066
Website:; Email:

In Christ,

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Max Moon
(no login)

Yee Haw

November 9 2006, 10:08 PM 

I may have to take a small drive over to Rochester and give 'em some money.

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Donnie Cruz
(no login)

Yo Moonie

November 10 2006, 12:15 PM 


We keep track of promises, as well as your comedies such as this one … just for the record. Be sure to inform us whether or not you have decided to take the small trip in order to contribute financially. We will certainly post THAT info.


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Jimmy Wren
(no login)

Praise team problems in Rochester?

November 9 2006, 10:31 PM 

One of the congregations that help support Rochester is the Lake Orion Church of Christ. This church has the following on its web site:

"Areas that you can help:
5. Worship team. Help us plan and coordinate our worship."(end)

I list this because some have said that a worship team only helps with the singing. Seems like more then singing is expected from this worship team!

Another article on this same web site may hint that the praise team is not being accepted by all at this church. The article reads:

"Worship…Who’s it About?’s difficult to talk about worship styles and methods without talking about opinion because really, our opinions and experiences are all we have. Jesus didn’t address whether or not praise teams should be used. He didn’t seem to care much about the arrangement of chairs or how comfortable people were as they sat on the ground and absorbed His words. He didn’t address clapping, raising of hands or anything like that. He did however, address loving people, taking care of people and serving people. So if that is Jesus’ focus, why is our focus about worship style and method?

I’m not sure there is a good answer to that question. Past experiences, good or bad, play a big part in that answer. Opinions, whether they are our own or something someone said that we agree with also, factor in. But how can we know if we are right?…and does being right really even matter?

Here’s another quick confession that we need to put right out on the table. I like praise teams. I like having other people singing with me who know the words and can assist in the leading of some wonderfully written songs. Why? Because I believe it would add to our Sunday morning worship experience. But guess what? It’s not about me. And it’s not about you. Worship is BIGGER than a style or method, and the method of a praise team isn’t right or wrong; it’s just a method. If you have never had an experience with a praise team, you might say, “Well that sounds fine if we had a bigger auditorium, but I don’t think we need one for Lake Orion.” That’s a fair statement and I might even agree with you…maybe we don’t need one. But a praise team should never be the subject. Adoration of the King of kings, Lord of lords…that is the subject."—Randy Speck (end)

This article reads as if Randy is trying to convince or reassure someone that the praise team has Biblical approval. Maybe Randy finds this in the silence of the scriptures or maybe Randy just don't care! Did you notice where Randy ask the question "...does being right really even matter?"

In Christ,

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Calvin Moore
(no login)


November 28 2006, 7:50 PM 


There are hundreds of Churches of Christ that commit money to Christian institutes of higher learning. Will you also attack those churches? Or do you simply attack other believers (for that is what it is) who donate to institutes of higher learning that do not strike your personal theological fancy? The money those churches give to support this school have helped to further my education, which has subsequently served to deepen my relationship with Jesus Christ. Coming from a relatively poor background, I would not have been able to afford school otherwise. I've also been burned by church a time or two. So, rest easy, brother. The money those churches have given to Rochester College, have still gone to help the poor and disenfranchised. YHWH's peace.

Calvin Moore

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Ken Sublett
(no login)

Rejoice and be GLAD: Fallen Angels are getting in their LAST show.

November 10 2006, 11:13 AM 

What the poor creature could never guess is that there is no concept in the Christian System of a PRAISE SERVICE. The first assemblies in the wilderness were only for instruction and the instruments and loud rejoicing were outlawed. A specific law (numbers 10:7) and the definition of a Holy Convocation and the universal history of the Jews the idea of church as SCHOOL and NOT pagan worship should keep the literate from making a noise in the face of a Holy God. There was "no praise service in the synagogue" as directly commanded, as practiced, as endorsed by Jesus, as defined by Paul in Romans 15 and the NOT singing passages and the history of the church for almost 400 years. Singing as a ACT as opposed to SPEAKING the Word one to another to TEACH and ADMONISH was one of those heresies the Restoration Movement intended to remedy.

Praise singing is well documented as one of the earliest, most legalistic and superstitious acts of a LOST people trying to appease or even threaten the gods. Praise singing (Halal = make self vile) was a legalistic effort to AID the gods so they didn't KEEP on failing. Recorded history knows that those who were effective were emotionally and sexually abnormal. That is why the result of rejecting the Word so completely that the writer could spew out what he did is that God pours out His WRATH which means ORGE or sending you jesters, buffoona and spiritual adulterers--those who corruupt the word with music and BODY worship Peter called "selling at retail" like a prostitute.

Jesus didn't DEFINE nor PRACTICE worship in the sense the misguided misleader means: He stood up to read the Word and had the uncommon decency to LEAVE US AN EXAMPLE of sitting down and dialoging the word. He didn't lead prayers, take up a collection, do praise singing or tell self-invented fables.

God was going to come and rescue the outcasts and downcasts: Assuredy what we call worshuup-uh with girlies clapping, waving and singing is only for the rich and famous to get richer and more infamous:
    And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. Is.11:12

    The Lord God, which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him. Is.56:8

Of God, Isaiah wrote
    <He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied:
    by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many;
    for he shall bear their iniquities. Is.53:11

That is why God came as The CHRIST OF GOD to rescue a small band of people FROM those ignorant men who enslave them as DEMAGOGUES which is defined as APPEASING and taking captive (heresy) men by the PERFORMING ARTS. That is why Jesus did call people to WORSHIP and PRAISE but to REST and learn. Sabbath does not mean Saturday: it means to REST and "learn of me." His promise is only to the TWOS and THREES because He will not be found in the campe or city or masses but OUTSIDE the camp suffering repraoches.
    Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Matthew 11:28
    Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. Matthew 11:29
    For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. Matthew 11:30
    And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers. Lu.11:46

In Acts 20 Paul warns about the WOLVES who grieve you: the wolves or dogs were male prostitute and the MARK of these beasts was always MUSIC performed only by prostitutes of homosexual males. Music IS the Mark: Paul calls the musical performers SORCERERS in Revelatioon 18.

Labor is what performance preachers, singers and musician do: indeed the SERVICE of the Levitical Warrior Musicians was called HARD BONDAGE from a word similar to Abaddon who unleashes the locusts (Muses) Johen called SORCERERS. The burden laders come ONLY when you as did Israel at Mount Sinai, fall into the Musical Idolatry of the Egyptian trinity. Music is the MARK that you have fallen and will never rise again (The Book of Enoch defined by Jude)
    Kopiao (g2872) kop-ee-ah'-o; from a der. of 2873; to feel fatigue; by impl. to work hard: - (bestow) labour, toil, be wearied.

    Kopos (g2873) kop'-os; from 2875; a cut, i.e. (by anal.) toil (as reducing the strength), lit. or fig.; by impl. pains: - labour, / trouble, weariness.

    Kopria (g2874) kop-ree'-ah; from kopros , (ordure; perh. akin to 2875); manure: - DUNG (-hill)

You don't get to discover this at a LIBERAL ARTISTS school but Bible readers know that Jesus CAST OUT the musical minstrels LIKE DUNG because they were the signs of the women performing as SORCERERS and all singers were also prostitutes. The word REST is a highly dedicated word used in the literature to mean STOP the rhetoric, stop the singing, stop the music, just stop it.

The LADED part means "to create mental excitement through religious ritual." All rituals using music intends to inject fear to take you captive and condition you to believe that the feeling is SPIRITUAL. It is not: the singers PLEASURE you by injecting you with endorphins to induce the impulses of FIGHT, FLIGHT or SEXUALITY.

Worship for a CHRISTIAN will never rise above REVERENCE and GODLY FEAR: if it does then Paul warns us that GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE.

On the contrary the WORSHIP which the false preachers and PhDuhs speak about is defined as the end time church named after CIRCE: she was the harlot of Homer's legends with more than a bit of truth. She used music, drugs and sorcery to seduce people to make them into BEASTS a term used to speak of the Mumbling Crowds or masses which have no hope. The word WORSHIP which the false teachers use because they are DEMAGOGUES and want to APPEASE the crowd with performing arts because it will increase the cash flow: they have their reward.

James limits PURE religon to the HOOKS upon which it all hangs: living right and practicing social justice. The Harlot of Revelation 18 uses speakers, singers and musicians to perform:
    Thrêsk-eia, Ion. thrêsk-eiê , hê, ( [thrêskeuô] ) religious worship, cult, ritual, hê peri ta hira th. Hdt.2.18, IG12(5).141.5 (Paros, iii B.C.), J.AJ17.9.3, etc.; tou Apollônos SIG801 D (Delph., i A.D.); hê peri tinos th. ib. 867.48 (Ephesus, ii A.D.): pl., rites, Hdt.2.37, D.H.2.63, PGnom. 185 (ii A.D.), Wilcken Chr.72 (iii A.D.).
      2. religion, service of God, LXX Wi.14.18, Act.Ap.26.5, Ep.Jac.1.26; th. tou theou mia esti, mê einai kakon Corp.Herm.12 fin.; hekatera th., i.e. Christianity and Paganism, Them.Or.5.69c; th. tôn angelôn worshipping of angels, Ep.Col.2.18
    Threskeia (g2356) thrace-ki'-ah; from a der. of 2357; ceremonial observance: - religion, worshipping.

    Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, Col.2:18

Jude identifies the WANDERING STARS which are the FALLEN ANGELS in the Book of Enoch and similar documents commenting on the Jubal family. Jubal HANDLED musical instruments which means WITHOUT AUTHORITY. He is well documented in the Bible and the Babylonian tablets. Satan and his / her FALLEN ANGELS taught the YOUTH how to organize mixed-sex choirs, build and play musical instruments and wear seductive clothing. They seduced the Holy Sethites from the LIVING Word and they could NEVER REPENT. Why can false preachers still get paid when their PUPILS are ignorant that Lucifer (ZOE) is called the "singing and harp playing prostitute" which is restated as the Holy Whore in Revelation 17 and John calls HER singers and musicians and grinders (prostitutes) SORCERERS who DECEIVED (past tense) the whole world. John spoke of APOLLONOS or Apollo who USED the muses at Delphi in his SEEKER CENTER used to fleece the flock.

Paul connects both the tongues and singing OUR OF THEIR OWN SPIRITS to witchcraft (sounding, clanging), to warfare and to the LUST to speak angelic voices which the SINGER-MUSICIANS claim they can bring to you as INSPIRED. As Paul outlawed SELF PLEASURE (musical-sexual) in Romans 15, and the singing word is rooted in HERESY and creates the MENTAL EXCITEMENT Jesus put down, the word
    "Voluntary" (g2309) means determined, delightful, pleasurable. It is from:

    Haireomai (g138) hahee-reh'-om-ahee; prob. akin to 142; to take for oneself, i.e. to prefer: - choose. Some of the forms are borrowed from a cognate heålloåmai +tx hel'-lom-ahee; # which is otherwise
      Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than (choosing) to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; Heb.11:25
    3. in bad sense, religious formalism, anti hosiotêtos Ph.1.195 ; th. biôtikê VULGAR SUPERSTITION.

All forms of AROUSAL SINGING are roooted in the word HERESY and 142. These words connect to the DEMAGOGUE who fleeces you using THE PERFORMING ARTS and with the Greek KLEPTOMAI. Fools always love to mock facts. Paul uses a form of SYNAGOGUE for the gatherings or assemblying and the Synagogue had NO PRAISE SERVICE. His UNIQUE worship word was to GIVE HEED to the Word (as written) or Give attendance to the public reading of the Word, to exhortation and to doctrine. What the DOCTORS OF THE LAW whose job is to TAKE AWAY THE KEY TO KNOWLLEDGE are delivering to you AT A PRICE TOO HIGH has no connection to the Christian ekklesia or SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE.

OUR mortal sin will be to express SURPRISE that the MANY in Paul's message and the REMNANT concept is really taking place before our eyes. THEY have decided what the will do TO Jesus and WE have been witnesses in the SPECTACKLE where the MANY wil use CARNAL WEAPONS (lifeless instruments) to fight the FATHER / MOTHER of musical BLEEDING OFF worship form God in the SHAM battle which we FOOLS are supposed to see as honorable rather than the PROPHECY of the fallen angels still seeking and getting lots of worship. The SPIRIT people have and will always be so tiny as to be virtually invisible: assurdely the SOUND and LIGHT shows define LUCIFER or ZOE.

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Jimmy Wren
(no login)

Singing In An Unknown Tongue?

November 11 2006, 8:59 PM 

"Remember, psalms, hymns, and songs refer only to words!...If the souls of men cannot comprehend, our singing is no more than an unknown tongue." (Source: Church Music, L. O. Sanderson, 1977 Freed-Hardeman College Lectureship.

Keep preaching Piney. You are doing a great job!

In Christ,

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Ken Sublett
(no login)

More Data on the DUNG heap.

November 11 2006, 10:10 PM 

That's true, Jimmy: Paul drew some parallels between the clanging bronze and speaking in tongues. The clanging bronze was a hi-tek version of the "Familiar Spirit" of the Witch of Endor--an empty-sounding wineskin used by sorcerers. They were made of various sizes and placed around the theater to amplify certain pitches of voice is song: they were a form of pipe organ. His use of LIFELESS INSTRUMENT has much the same meaning as CARNAL WEAPON. Indeed, a single word in Hebrew is used for both a PSALTERY and a WEAPON. The Nebel also has the same meaning as the Familiar Spirit or Sounding Bronze because it was made of an old goat skin or some animal "which had died of itself" and was polluted. Both the music and the words are speaking in tongues because they have no meaning other than jabber. The repeating of certain phrases or words was called SORCERY or ENCHANTMENT because the purpose was to put you into an altered state and make you believe that "spiritual rape" as "rapture" is a good thing. Here is an interesting tidbit showing that the musicians stand by the GATES OF HELL just as Inanna the singing, musical prostitute of Babylon had to go into hell to get Tammuz to return and play the magical flute with the women.

Pluto as a "god"" got stuck with the underworld or Hell. All of the charismatic, musical worship such as that of Dionysus will help you into hell. It was this "worship" they tried to force on Jesus. Aristophanes is the rare classical work which is translated without pulling any punches. Not even Bible translators are able to bring themselves to OUT the vileness of those who try to silence the Word of the Living God. Remembering that Jesus CAST OUT the musical minstrels like dung:

    Then weltering seas of filth
    And ever-rippling dung: and plunged therein,
    Whoso has wronged the stranger here on earth,
    Or robbed his boylove of the promised pay,
    Or swinged [threshed] his mother, or profanely smitten
    His father's check, or sworn an oath forsworn,
    Or copied out a speech of Morsimus.
    There too, perdie, should he be plunged, whoe'er
    Has danced the sword-dance of Cinesias. [Kinesias' pyrrhic]
    Recommended by Fred Peatross in the Emerging Church of Christ.
    And next the breath of flutes will float around you,<>
    And glorious sunshine, such as ours, you'll see,
    And myrtle groves, and happy bands who clap
    Their hands in triumph,
    men and women too.

    And who are they?
    The happy mystic bands,
    And I'm the donkey in the mystery show.

    But I'll not stand it, not one instant longer.
    Who'll tell you everything you want to know.

    You'll find them dwelling close beside the road
    You are going to travel, just at Pluto's gate.

    And fare thee well, my brother.
When you hear the MUSIC you are close to hell: it was brought by Lucifer (Zoe) the singing and harp playing prostitute. It is the same Mother of the gods or holy whore whose "performance speakers, singers, musicians" and all operatives who performed SORCERY will have their lamps put out and, like the king/queen of Babylon rot on a bed of maggots and be burned up along with his HARPS and still-breathing HARPISTS.

I told you: I can quote data all day long which proves that MUSIC is the MARK of the BEAST: Zoe or Luciferr is called the "beast and the female instructing principle." As in The Book of Enoch, when the musicians MARK you you are HARD WIRED to make the "sexual arousal through music means spiritual worship" and you will never come unwired: Forever and ever amen.

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Jimmy Wren
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Rubel Shelly said it this way

November 12 2006, 5:57 PM 

“…there is no New Testament authority for instrumental music in the worship of God. There is certainly no direct statement in the New Testament which authorizes it; neither is there any implication contained in any statement of Scripture which can be used to authorize it. The New Testament preserves no record of its use in the first century so as to authorize it by apostolic precedent. And there is no rule of expediency which can possibly justify pianos and organs in worship to God.

New Testament authority is for singing as the means of musical praise to God in the Christian Age. Such passages as Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16 call for "speaking," "teaching," "admonishing," and "singing." Every one of these actions is one of verbal communication…” (Source: INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC: THE REAL ISSUE INVOLVED; Rubel Shelly; Freed-Hardeman College Lectureship, 1977)

In Christ,

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(no login)

losing focus

November 15 2006, 11:00 PM 

I too being a Rochester College student, and now alumnus, think it sad that you all are taking one person's account as the quintessential truth about the college and a few of its professors. If you really wanted to approach all of this in an intellegent manner you would open up DISCUSSION with said professors..... and by discussion I mean actually listen to one another and take time to think about the comments of both parties.

And to take this just a bit further, I think this is exactly what is wrong with the church: we'll stand on a soapbox all day long as long as we don't have to actually DISCUSS anything...... not to mention that we pick up and rally around these sorts of issues and ignore the homeless man down the street that needs some food..... or the teenage mother who is desperately looking for some love...... or the young college people who desperately want to do mission work but can't because no one will donate money........ or any of the other neglegences we as Christians have let slip right through our fingers to fight our own internal battles. A house divided will not stand.

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(no login)

Mere Speculation

December 30 2008, 12:56 AM 

Brothers .........What you are saying is just speculation on your part. Just because nothing is said about music in this instance doesn't mean that they couldn't use music. We are to have reasonable minds. happy.gif


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Jimmy Wren
(no login)

How about steak on the Lord's table?

December 30 2008, 12:39 PM 

Compass, your reply is kind and I appreciate your impute and I pray that you will not think me unkind by replying with the old argument that 'steak and potatoes' may be used on the Lord's Table. Just because nothing is said about music (steak and potatoes)in this instance doesn't mean that they couldn't use music (steak and potatoes). We are to have reasonable minds.

As to IM, consider this verse from the Hebrew writter: 'By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.' (Hebrew 13:15, KJV)

In Christ,

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(Login Tink83)

Re: Disturbing Things at Rochester College: A Student's Perspective

November 15 2006, 11:07 PM 

I too being a Rochester College student, and now alumnus, think it sad that you all are taking one person's account as the quintessential truth about the college and a few of its professors. If you really wanted to approach all of this in an intellegent manner you would open up DISCUSSION with said professors..... and by discussion I mean actually listen to one another and take time to think about the comments of both parties.

And to take this just a bit further, I think this is exactly what is wrong with the church: we'll stand on a soapbox all day long as long as we don't have to actually DISCUSS anything...... not to mention that we pick up and rally around these sorts of issues and ignore the homeless man down the street that needs some food..... or the teenage mother who is desperately looking for some love...... or the young college people who desperately want to do mission work but can't because no one will donate money........ or any of the other neglegences we as Christians have let slip right through our fingers to fight our own internal battles. A house divided will not stand.

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(no login)

Re: Disturbing Things at Rochester College: A Student's Perspective

November 24 2006, 7:00 PM 

Amy, the weblog is not run by one person, but a group, and a number of students frequent it. That said, Tacitus is not alone in his analysis of the proceedings of the college.

With all due respect, Tacitus, myself, and others have approached the administration with our concerns over and over see here
and here

Here is how these particular members of the administration have responded to us and other students

In our experience with the Administration, it seems they would rather put on the facade of objectivity and open discussion than actually address issues that are raised, but of course, I don’t expect you to take my word for it, that is why I would encourage you to look at the above links, and look over the information on the question the college blog and judge for yourself what is really going on.

I think you misunderstand the situation; the stakes in this sort of discussion are much higher than you realize. On my campus, there is a war going on over the heart and soul of Christianity. On one side, there are those who want the Gospel to be held as central, and hold scripture as a precedent for the Christian life, and on the other those who would set the focus of the Christian life on “a spiritual experience” or a religious feeling.
When it comes to the Emergent Church , what has been said is not the problem, it is what hasn’t. The implications of taking no position on propositional truths are overwhelming, to the Emergent Christian, the deity of Christ is not really foundational, much less important, and Christianity becomes a hollow shell that once held the power of the Gospel. There is no Doctrinal statement, there is no truth, it is all relative to the individual's personal experience. The life-changing power of the Gospel is replaced with "the life-changing discussion," and unity is fabricated because the Cross, the Great equalizer has now become just another story in an ancient book that can be taken or left based on an individual's whim.

If we preach an empty Gospel, one that makes no claims on truth, then how can we even claim to belong to Christ? How can we reach a lost and dying world with the Gospel if we are afraid to stand firm on the Gospel ourselves?

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Another Rochester Student
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Re: Disturbing Things at Rochester College: A Student's Perspective

November 25 2006, 4:17 PM 

Well, It should be known that the original poster is a coward who hides behind annoymous names and refuses to actually address his issues in public. I know that i am using an annonymous name currently but i would be more than happy to address any of his "Issues" with Rochester College, Rubel Shelly, And Dr Barton in a public forum on campus. As I would also be willing to address any issue any previous writer may have in a public forum because the hypocrisy is unimaginable amongst those who critique Rochester and its professors and supporters. Not only are some of the things I have seen written down right Racist (And I happen to be a White student) but also ignorant to historical and theological fact. It is interesting that only a handful of people actually post on this, simply reassuring me that this movement is shortsighted and dying. I belong to the Church of Christ as many of you do and I am simply asshamed that many of you claim to be the "spokesman" for the church. If anyone has issue with what I said and wish to meet in a public forum please respond, But if not please refrain from your hateful speach that the Bible so CLEARLY speaks against, espcially in annoymous forums. If not I guess I will simply accept my condemnation to Hell becuase I go to Rochester College, but at least I will go enlightened unlike the closeminded ignorant hate-mongers on this website

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

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At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

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Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
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120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
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Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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