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Jimmy Wren
(no login)
72.149.232.130

Wrong again Servant!!!

December 24 2006, 3:32 PM 

Servant this is one of the reasons why piney's posts makes more sense then your's do!

You seem to labor under the false impression that a person must have a special talent to fullfill the commands found in Eph. 5:19.

I do agree that it takes a little education to "musicate" like the heathens and pagans do. I also agree that the heathens and pagans are often filled with wine rather then being filled with the Spirit. But I disagree with you that it takes a "talent" to "Speak to yourselves..." as Paul commands in his letters to the Ephesians and Colossians. I disagree with you that it takes a "talent" to be filled with the Spirit or that it takes a "talent" to have the Word of God dwell in us richly.

Thus far Servant ever argument you have put forth is likened to a green screen used in photography. The green screen is chromakeyed and the beautiful, real, lasting, background is revealed for all to gaze on.

In Christ,
Jimmy †


 
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Jimmy Wren
(no login)
66.169.186.184

Not so Servant!

December 22 2006, 9:44 PM 

Servants writes: "...straight from the mouth of Clemente himself."

Jimmy replies: Not so fast there Servant. This is your copy and paste of an article by Brooks Cochran.

While the quote may be legit your source is BC and not Clement of Alexander.

In Christ,
Jimmy

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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66.217.164.108

Early Christians Did Not Use Musical Instruments in Worship: Further Evidence

December 10 2006, 10:18 AM 

Since the history of the Church is so jam-packed with evidence that the early Christians did NOT use instrumental music in their worship, I thought it best to present a few more examples, just in case there might be a doubter or two lurking nearby:

“One of the features which distinguishes the Christian religion from almost all others is its quietness; it aims to repress the outward signs of inward feeling. Savage instinct, and the religion of Greece also, had employed the rhythmic dance and all kinds of gesticulatory notions to express the inner feelings . . . The early Christians discouraged all outward signs of excitement, and from the very beginning, in the music they used, reproduced the spirit of their religion--an inward quietude. All the music employed in their early services was vocal” (Frank Landon Humphreys, Evolution of Church Music, p. 42).

“It is not, therefore, strange that instrumental music was not heard in their congregational services..... In the early church the whole congregation joined in the singing, but instrumental music did not accompany the praise” (W.D. Killen, The Ancient Church, pp. 193, 423).

“At first the church music was simple, artless, recitative. But rivalry of heretics forced the orthodox church to pay greater attention to the requirements of art. Chrysostom had to declaim against the secularization of church music. More lasting was the opposition to the introduction of instrumental music” (John Kurtz, Lutheran Scholar, Church History, Vol 1, p. 376).

“All our sources deal amply with vocal music of the church, but they are chary with mention of any other manifestations of musical art . . . The development of Western music was decisively influenced by the exclusion of musical instruments from the early Christian Church” (Paul Henry Lang, Music in Western Civilization, p. 53-54).

“The general introduction of instrumental music can certainly not be assigned to a date earlier than the 5th and 6th centuries; yea, even Gregory the Great, who towards the end of the 6th century added greatly to the existing church music, absolutely prohibited the use of instruments. Several centuries later the introduction of the organ in sacred service gave the place to instruments as accompaniments for Christian song, and from that time to this they have been freely used with few exceptions. The first organ is believed to have been used in the Church service in the 13th century. Organs were however, in use before this in the theater. They were never regarded with favor in the Eastern Church, and were vehemently opposed in some of the Western churches” (McClintock and Strong, Enyclopaedia of Biblical Literature, Vol. 6, p. 759).

“While the Greek and Roman songs were metrical, the Christian psalms were antiphons, prayers, responses, etc., were unmetrical; and while the pagan melodies were always sung to an instrumental accompaniment, the church chant was exclusively vocal” (Edward Dickinson, History of Music, p. 54).

“The church, although lapsing more and more into deflection from the truth and into a corrupting of apostolic practice, had not instrumental music for 1200 years (that is, it was not in general use before this time); The Calvinistic Reform Church ejected it from its service as an element of popery, even the church of England having come very nigh its extrusion from her worship. It is heresy in the sphere of worship” (John Giradeau, Presbyterian professor in Columbia Theological Seminary, Instrumental Music, p. 179).

“Yet there was little temptation to undue elaboration of hymnody or music. The very spirituality of the new faith made ritual or liturgy superfluous and music almost unnecessary. Singing (there was no instrumental accompaniment) was little more than a means of expressing in a practicable, social way, the common faith and experience. . . . The music was purely vocal. There was no instrumental accompaniment of any kind. . . . It fell under the ban of the Christian church, as did all other instruments, because of its pagan association” (E.S. Lorenz, Church Music, pp. 217, 250, 404).


Such examples should forever silence any further debate about whether early Christians utilized instruments of music in their worship, for they most certainly did NOT. However, I would imagine that from now until Doom's Day, the spiritually obtuse will continue to pitch their useless arguments.












 
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Ken Sublett
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66.82.9.81

Correct: Dr. Crump.

December 10 2006, 2:09 PM 

Thanks, Dr. Crump: You are correct about the word METRICAL. I have too many times used "metrical" without distinguishing what arose AFTER the Reformation when the organs and choirs were ejected in those churches now owned by the CIVIL STATE and the local authorities gave permission to remove them. That was primarily because the organs were increasingly used for "after church" entertainment and led to the same debauchery seen when women--and especially men--are aroused to the "musical" state where hands and feet and other body parts are involved. I will correct those dozens of articles. Heard this morning that the EFFETES are destroying Christianity and 60% of the members are FEMALE. Those who have turned "musical" probably have fewer males. I proudly claim to be a pioneer in using my FEET and my COMPUTER to flee Babylon and OUT the "law of preaching, law of giving and law of singing."

The Psalms--and much of the Bible--is written in a style which promotes LEARNING. The "notes" were called CANTILLATION and the "pitch" was a clearly defined MARK OF EMPHASIS and it was not metrical as in "singing" in the modern sense. Nor was it similar to that of the prostitutes and Sodomites who intended to seduce. If church is SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE then you have to wonder about anyone insisting that you go back--as I have been challenged--and prove that there was not ONE congregation which musicated.

"The chant of ancient Hebrews was rhythmical, but probably free of fixed meter.
Perhaps the only exceptions were the dancing songs of WOMEN, usually accompanied by percussion instruments."
(Interpreters Dictionary of the Bible, p. 466).

"The Fathers of the early Church were virtually unanimous in their hostility toward musical instruments" and to the notion that this was based upon its use in the various cults, he says: "The fact that instruments were not used, however, is related to the positive Christian attitude toward music which was characterized by an enthusiastic fostering of psalmody, a type of music performed unmetrically and without instrument." (McKinnon, quoted by Bales, p. 260).

"All the music employed in their early services was vocal, and the rhythmic element and all gesticulation were forbidden" (Frank L. Humphreys, The Evolution of Church Music, p. 42).


The Catholic church did not sing METRICALLY but the chants were similar to Hebrew Cantillation. In fact, the word ODE further defines PSALMOS as in "Hebrew cantillation" which is defined as a READING style and not a singing style. Nor did the singer chant WHILE the organ played preludes, interludes and recessionals. NOR did any Catholc 'congregation' sing with instrumental accompaniment.

It was the Reformation--which was a political TURF battle--which had to pharaphrase the Psalms to MAKE them metrical but not then "musical" in the modern perverted style:

"One of the developments in which Beza was of great assistance was in Reformed psalmody. Zwingli had opposed music in public worship and it was a century or so after his death before the Reformed Churches in which his influence was strong departed from that precedent. Calvin did not go as far as Zwingli, but confined the use of music to congregational singing in unison of metrical versions of the Psalms and Canticles." (Kenneth Latourette, History of the Christian Church.p. 760).

Latourette was a Baptist Pastor who was--like most Baptists--opposed to any form of 'musical' styles. d. 1968

We know that there was open hostility when musicians put the Psalms in a metrical form and added harmony. So, those who justify their WHOLE EXISTENCE by the RACA words of "legalistic, sectarian, patternist" claiming that churches of Christ ADDED the NOT ADDING of instruments and refused to be FORCED into the Denomination, will also STEAL your TITHES and OFFERINGS by lying about Paul and most church history. If they turn out the lights, try to get you to hold hands, sing and clap and chant Kum Ba Ya be sure that you wear rubber gloves.

 
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Servant
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69.59.78.95

Re: Early Christians Did Not Use Musical Instruments in Worship: Further Evidence

December 11 2006, 10:58 AM 

Bill:
Funny part about all of this...you guys have one Ken Sublett who posts quite regular and who does NOT even believe that "SING" means to make music.
You do know that, right Bill?
You and others here Bill prefer acapella music. You consider Ken as a legitimate authority on music history. HOWEVER, you ignore him when he says that you and the crew here are WRONG even to make music by singing.
You do realize how ridiculous that looks, right?

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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66.217.125.179

Re: Early Christians Did Not Use Musical Instruments in Worship: Further Evidence

December 12 2006, 8:41 AM 

Servant demanded that we prove that early Christians did NOT use musical instruments in their worship. Between Donnie and me, we cited numerous references from early church fathers, church historians, and church scholars, all of whom attest that the early Christians did NOT use IM in their worship. Yet as I could have predicted, Servant still denies this fact and further decides to bash Ken Sublett. Servant knows that he has no legitimate argument upon which to stand, so he uses a diversionary tactic of switching the subject.

As I recall, Servant accused me of using this tactic when he initially issued his challenge: "This should be good....maybe like sidestepping the truth or using a tangent to go off on another subject."


 
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Donnie Cruz
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72.150.119.22

What did early Christians believe about…?

December 11 2006, 10:55 PM 


Source: http://www.bible.ca/H-music.htm

_______________________________


What did early Christians believe about...?


(Before 300 AD)


Uninspired records of how early Christians worshipped and what doctrine they believed!


Using instrumental music in worship???



AQUINAS "Our church does not use musical instruments, as harps and psalteries, to praise God withal, that she may not seem to Judaize." (Thomas Aquinas, Bingham's Antiquities, Vol. 3, page 137)

AUGUSTINE "musical instruments were not used. The pipe, tabret, and harp here associate so intimately with the sensual heathen cults, as well as with the wild revelries and shameless performances of the degenerate theater and circus, it is easy to understand the prejudices against their use in the worship." (Augustine 354 A.D., describing the singing at Alexandria under Athanasius)

CHRYSOSTOM "David formerly sang songs, also today we sing hymns. He had a lyre with lifeless strings, the church has a lyre with living strings. Our tongues are the strings of the lyre with a different tone indeed but much more in accordance with piety. Here there is no need for the cithara, or for stretched strings, or for the plectrum, or for art, or for any instrument; but, if you like, you may yourself become a cithara, mortifying the members of the flesh and making a full harmony of mind and body. For when the flesh no longer lusts against the Spirit, but has submitted to its orders and has been led at length into the best and most admirable path, then will you create a spiritual melody." (Chrysostom, 347-407, Exposition of Psalms 41, (381-398 A.D.) Source Readings in Music History, ed. O. Strunk, W. W. Norton and Co.: New York, 1950, pg. 70.)

CLEMENT "Leave the pipe to the shepherd, the flute to the men who are in fear of gods and intent on their idol worshipping. Such musical instruments must be excluded from our wingless feasts, for they arc more suited for beasts and for the class of men that is least capable of reason than for men. The Spirit, to purify the divine liturgy from any such unrestrained revelry chants: 'Praise Him with sound of trumpet," for, in fact, at the sound of the trumpet the dead will rise again; praise Him with harp,' for the tongue is a harp of the Lord; 'and with the lute. praise Him.' understanding the mouth as a lute moved by the Spirit as the lute is by the plectrum; 'praise Him with timbal and choir,' that is, the Church awaiting the resurrection of the body in the flesh which is its echo; 'praise Him with strings and organ,' calling our bodies an organ and its sinews strings, for front them the body derives its Coordinated movement, and when touched by the Spirit, gives forth human sounds; 'praise Him on high-sounding cymbals,' which mean the tongue of the mouth which with the movement of the lips, produces words. Then to all mankind He calls out, 'Let every spirit praise the Lord,' because He rules over every spirit He has made. In reality, man is an instrument arc for peace, but these other things, if anyone concerns himself overmuch with them, become instruments of conflict, for inflame the passions. The Etruscans, for example, use the trumpet for war; the Arcadians, the horn; the Sicels, the flute; the Cretans, the lyre; the Lacedemonians, the pipe; the Thracians, the bugle; the Egyptians, the drum; and the Arabs, the cymbal. But as for us, we make use of one instrument alone: only the Word of peace by whom we a homage to God, no longer with ancient harp or trumpet or drum or flute which those trained for war employ." (Clement of Alexandria, 190AD The instructor, Fathers of the church, p. 130)

CLEMENT "Moreover, King David the harpist, whom we mentioned just above, urged us toward the truth and away from idols. So far was he from singing the praises of daemons that they were put to flight by him with the true music; and when Saul was Possessed, David healed him merely by playing the harp. The Lord fashioned man a beautiful, breathing instrument, after His own imaged and assuredly He Himself is an all-harmonious instrument of God, melodious and holy, the wisdom that is above this world, the heavenly Word." … "He who sprang from David and yet was before him, the Word of God, scorned those lifeless instruments of lyre and cithara. By the power of the Holy Spirit He arranged in harmonious order this great world, yes, and the little world of man too, body and soul together; and on this many-voiced instruments of the universe He makes music to God, and sings to the human instrument. "For thou art my harp and my pipe and my temple"(Clement of Alexandria, 185AD, Readings p. 62)

ERASMUS "We have brought into our churches certain operatic and theatrical music; such a confused, disorderly chattering of some words as I hardly think was ever in any of the Grecian or Roman theatres. The church rings with the noise of trumpets, pipes, and dulcimers; and human voices strive to bear their part with them. Men run to church as to a theatre, to have their ears tickled. And for this end organ makers are hired with great salaries, and a company of boys, who waste all their time learning these whining tones." (Erasmus, Commentary on I Cor. 14:19)

EUSEBIUS "Of old at the time those of the circumcision were worshipping with symbols and types it was not inappropriate to send up hymns to God with the psalterion and cithara and to do this on Sabbath days... We render our hymn with a living psalterion and a living cithara with spiritual songs. The unison voices of Christians would be more acceptable to God than any musical instrument. Accordingly in all the churches of God, united in soul and attitude, with one mind and in agreement of faith and piety we send up a unison melody in the words of the Psalms." (commentary on Psalms 91:2-3)


___________________________

[To be continued…]

 
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Donnie Cruz
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72.150.119.22

What did early Christians believe about…? (Part II)

December 12 2006, 12:04 AM 

Source: http://www.bible.ca/H-music.htm

_______________________________


VARIOUS SCHOLARS


ALZOG "St. Ambrose and St. Gregory rendered great service to church music by the introduction of what are known as the Ambrosian and Gregorian chants.... Ecclesiastical chant, departing in some instances from the simple majesty of its original character, became more artistic, and, on this account, less heavenly and more profane; and the Fathers of the Church were not slow to censure this corruption of the old and honored church song. Finally, the organ, which seemed an earthly echo of the angelic choirs in heaven, added its full, rich, and inspiring notes to the beautiful simplicity of the Gregorian chant" (Alzog, Catholic Scholar, Church Historian of the University of Freiburg and champion of instrumental music in worship, was faithful to his scholarship when he wrote, Universal Church History, Vol. 1, pp. 696, 697).

AMERICAN "Pope Vitalian is related to have first introduced organs into some of the churches of Western Europe about 670 but the earliest trustworthy account is that of one sent as a present by the Greek emperor Constantine Copronymus to Pepin, king of Franks in 755" (American Encyclopedia, Volume 12, p. 688).

BARCLAY "If God is spirit a man's gifts to God music gifts of the spirit. Animal sacrifices and all manmade things become inadequate. The only gifts that befit the nature of God are the gifts of the spirit - love, loyalty, obedience, devotion" (W. Barclay, The Gospel of John, Vol. 1, p. 161).

BARNES "Psallo … is used, in the New Testament, only in Rom. 15:9 and 1 Cor. 14:15, where it is translated sing; in James 5:13, where it is rendered sing psalms, and in the place before us. The idea here is that of singing in the heart, or praising God from the heart" (Albert Barnes, a Presbyterian, Notes on The Testament, comment on Eph. 5:19).

BENEDICT "In my earliest intercourse among this people, congregational singing generally prevailed among them. . . . The Introduction Of The Organ Among The Baptist. This instrument, which from time immemorial has been associated with cathedral pomp and prelatical power, and has always been the peculiar favorite of great national churches, at length found its way into Baptist sanctuaries, and the first one ever employed by the denomination in this country, and probably in any other, might have been standing in the singing gallery of the Old Baptist meeting house in Pawtucket, about forty years ago, where I then officiated as pastor (1840) ... Staunch old Baptists in former times would as soon tolerated the Pope of Rome in their pulpits as an organ in their galleries, and yet the instrument has gradually found its way among them.... How far this modern organ fever will extend among our people, and whether it will on the whole work a RE- formation or DE- formation in their singing service, time will more fully develop." (Benedict, Baptist historian, Fifty Years Among Baptist, page 204-207)

BEZA "If the apostle justly prohibits the use of unknown tongues in the church, much less would he have tolerated these artificial musical performances which are addressed to the ear alone, and seldom strike the understanding even of the performers themselves." (Theodore Beza, scholar of Geneva, Girardeau's Instrumental Music, p. 166)

BINGHAM "Music in churches is as ancient as the apostles, but instrumental music not so . . . The use of the instrumental, indeed, is much ancienter, but not in church service. . . In the Western parts, the instrument, as not so much as known till the eighth century; for the first organ that was ever seen in France was one sent as a present to King Pepin by Constantinus Copronymus, the Greek emperor. . . . But, now, it was only, used in princes courts, and not yet brought into churches; nor was it ever received into the Greek churches, there being no mention of an organ in all their liturgies ancient or modern." (Joseph Bingham, Works, London Edition. Vol. 11, p. 482-484)

BINGHAM "Music in churches is as ancient as the apostles, but instrumental music not so." (Joseph Bingham, Church of England, Works, vol. 3, page 137)

BURNEY "After the most diligent inquire concerning the time when instrumental music had admission into the ecclesiastical service, there is reason to conclude, that, before the reign of Constantine, ;is the converts to the Christian religion were subject to frequent persecution and disturbance in their devotion, the rise of instruments could hardly have been allowed: and by all that can be collected from the writings of the primitive Christians, they seem never to have been admitted." (Charles Burney, A general history of Music, 1957, p. 426)

CALVIN "Musical instruments in celebrating the praises of God would be no more suitable than the burning of incense, the lighting of lamps, and the restoration of the other shadows of the law. The Papists therefore, have foolishly borrowed, this, as well as many other things, from the Jews. Men who are fond of outward pomp may delight in that noise; but the simplicity which God recommends to us by the apostles is far more pleasing to him. Paul allows us to bless God in the public assembly of the saints, only in a known tongue (I Cor. 14:16) What shall we then say of chanting, which fills the ears with nothing but an empty sound?" (John Calvin, Commentary on Psalms 33)

CATHOLIC "Although Josephus tells of the wonderful effects produced in the Temple by the use of instruments, the first Christians were of too spiritual a fibre to substitute lifeless instruments for or to use them to accompany the human voice. Clement of Alexandria severely condemns the use of instruments even at Christian banquets. St. Chrysostum sharply contrasts the customs of the Christians when they had full freedom with those of the Jews of the Old Testament." (Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. 10, pg. 648-652.)

CATHOLIC "For almost a thousand years Gregorian chant, without any instrumental or harmonic addition was the only music used in connection with the liturgy. The organ, in its primitive and rude form, was the first, and for a long time the sole, instrument used to accompany the chant…. The church has never encouraged and at most only tolerated the use of instruments. She enjoins in the 'Caeremonials Episcoporum', - that permission for their use should first be obtained from the ordinary. She holds up as her ideal the unaccompanied chant, and polyphonic, a-capella style. The Sistene Chapel has not even an organ."" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. 10, pg. 657-688.)

CATHOLIC "We need not shrink from admitting that candles, like incense and lustral water, were commonly employed in pagan worship and the rites paid to the dead. But the Church, from a very early period, took them into her service, just as she adopted many other things indifferent in themselves, which seemed proper to enhance the splendor of religious ceremony. We must not forget that most of these adjuncts to worship, like music, lights, perfumes, ablutions, floral decorations, canopies, fans, screens, bells, vestments, etc. were not identified with any idolatrous cult in particular but they were common to almost all cults." (Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. III, pg. 246.)

CHAMBERS "The organ is said to have been first introduced into church music by Pop Vitalian in 666. In 757, a great organ was sent as a present to Pepin by the Byzantine Emperor, Constantine, and placed in the church St. Corneille as Compiegne." (Chambers Encyclopedia, Vol 7, p. 112)

CLARKE "But were it even evident, which it is not, either from this or any other place in the sacred writings, that instruments of music were prescribed by divine authority under the law, could this be adduced with any semblance of reason, that they ought to be used in Christian worship? No; the whole spirit, soul, and genius of the Christian religion are against this; and those who know the Church of God best, and what constitutes its genuine spiritual state, know that these things have been introduced as a substitute for the life and power of religion; and that where they prevail most, there is least of the power of Christianity. Away with such portentous baubles from the worship of that infinite Spirit who requires His followers to worship Him in spirit and truth, for to no such worship are these instruments friendly." (Adam Clarke (Methodist), Clarke's Commentary, Methodist, Vol. II, pp. 690-691.)

CLARKE "I am an old man, and I here declare that I never knew them to be productive of any good in the worship of God, and have reason to believe that they are productive of much evil. Music as a science I esteem and admire, but instrumental music in the house of God I abominate and abhor. This is the abuse of music, and I here register my protest against all such corruption of the worship of the author of Christianity. The late and venerable and most eminent divine, the Rev. John Wesley, who was a lover of music, and an elegant poet, when asked his opinion of instruments of music being introduced into the chapels of the Methodists, said in his terse and powerful manner, 'I have no objections to instruments of music in our chapels, provided they are neither heard nor seen.' I say the same." (Adam Clark, Methodist)

COLEMAN "The tendency of this (instrumental music) was to secularize the music of the church, and to encourage singing by a choir. Such musical accompaniments were gradually introduced; but they can hardly be assigned to a period earlier than the fifth and sixth centuries. Organs were unknown in church until the eighth or ninth centuries. Previous to this, they had their place in the theater, rather than in the church. they were never regarded with favor in the Eastern church, and were vehemently opposed in many places in the West." (Lyman Coleman, a Presbyterian, Primitive Church, p. 376-377)

CONYBEARE "Throughout the whole passage there is a contrast implied between the Heathen and the Christian practice… When you meet, let your enjoyment consist not in fullness of wine, but fullness of the spirit; let your songs be, not the drinking songs of heathen feasts, but psalms and hymns; and their accompaniment, not the music of the lyre, but the melody of the heart; while you sing them to the praise, not of Bacchus or Venus, but of the Lord Jesus Christ" (Conybeare and Howson, Life and Times of the Apostle Paul, comment on Eph. 5:19).

DICKINSON "While the Greek and Roman songs were metrical, the Christian psalms were anitphons, prayers, responses, etc., were unmetrical; and while the pagan melodies were always sung to an instrumental accompaniment, the church chant was exclusively vocal" (Edward Dickinson, History of Music, p. 54)

DICKINSON "In view of the controversies over the use of instrumental music in worship, which have been so violent in the British and American Protestant churches, it is an interesting question whether instruments were employed by the primitive Christians. We know that instruments performed an important function in the Hebrew temple service and in the ceremonies of the Greeks. At this point, however, a break was made with all previous practice, and although the lyre and flute were sometimes employed by the Greek converts, as a general rule the use of instruments in worship was condemned." … "Many of the fathers, speaking of religious songs, made no mention of instruments; others, like Clement of Alexandria and St. Chrysostom, refer to them only to denounce them. Clement says, "Only one instrument do we use, viz. the cord of peace wherewith we honor God, no longer the old psaltery, trumpet, drum, and flute." Chrysostom exclaims: "David formerly sang in psalms, also we sing today with him; he had a lyre with lifeless strings, the church has a lyre with living strings. Our tongues are the strongs of the lyre, with a different tone, indeed, but with a more accordant piety." St. Ambrose expresses his scorn for those who would play the lyre and psaltery instead of singing hymns and psalms; and St. Augustine adjures believers not to turn their hearts to theatrical instruments. The religious guides of the early Christian felt that there would be an incongruity, and even profanity, in the use of the sensuous nerve-exciting effects of instrumental sound in their mystical, spiritual worship. Their high religious and moral enthusiasm needed no aid from external strings; the pure vocal utterance as the more proper expression of their faith." (Edward Dickinson, Music in the History of the Western Church, p. 54, 55)

FESSENDEN "This species. which is the most natural, is to be considered to have existed before any other... Instrumental music is also of very ancient date, its invention being ascribed to Tubal, the sixth descendant from Cain. The instrumental music was not practiced by the primitive Christians, but was an aid to devotion of later times, is evident from church history. (Fessenden's Encyclopedia of Art and Music, p. 852)

FINNEY "The early Christians refused to have anything to do with the instrumental music which they might have inherited from the ancient world." (Theodore Finney, A History of Music, 1947, p. 43)

FISHER "Church music, which at the outset consisted mainly of the singing of psalms, flourished especially in Syria and at Alexandria. The music was very simple in its character. There was some sort of alternate singing in the worship of Christians, as is described by Pliny. The introduction of antiphonal singing at Antioch is ascribed by tradition to Ignatius ... The primitive church music was choral and congregational." (George Park Fisher, Yale Professor, History of the Christian Church, p. 65, 121)

FULLER "The history of the church during the first three centuries affords many instances of primitive Christians engaging in singing, but no mention, (that I recollect) is made of instruments. (If my memory does not deceive me) it originated in the dark ages of popery, when almost every other superstition was introduced. At present, it is most used and where the least regard is paid to primitive simplicity." (Andrew Fuller, Baptist, Complete works of Andre Fuller, Vol 3, P. 520, 1843)

GARRISON "There is no command in the New Testament, Greek or English, commanding the use of the instrument. Such a command would be entirely out of harmony with the New Testament." (J.H. Garrison, Christian Church)

GIRADEAU "The church, although lapsing more and more into deflection from the truth and into a corrupting of apostolic practice, had not instrumental music for 1200 years (that is, it was not in general use before this time); The Calvinistic Reform Church ejected it from its service as an element of popery, even the church of England having come very nigh its extrusion from her worship. It is heresy in the sphere of worship." (John Giradeau, Presbyterian professor in Columbia Theological Seminary, Instrumental Music, p. 179)

HASTING If instrumental music was not part of early Christian worship, when did it become acceptable? Several reference works will help us see the progression of this practice among churches: "Pope Vitalian introduced an organ in the church in the seventh century to aid the singing but it was opposed and was removed." (James Hasting, Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics.)

HUMPHREYS "One of the features which distinguishes the Christian religion from almost all others is its quietness; it aims to repress the outward signs of inward feeling. Savage instinct, and the religion of Greece also, had employed the rhythmic dance and all kinds of gesticulatory notions to express the inner feelings . . . The early Chrisitians discouraged all outward signs of excitement, and from the very beginning, in the music they used, reproduced the spirit of their religion-an inward quietude. All the music employed in their early services was vocal." (Frank Landon Humphreys, Evolution of Church Music, p. 42)

KILLEN "It is not, therefore, strange that instrumental music was not, heard in their congregational services..... In the early church the whole congregation joined in the singing, but instrumental music did not accompany the praise" (W. D. Killen, The Ancient Church, pp. 193, 423).

KNOX "a kist (chest) of whistles." (John Knox, Presbyterian, in reference to the organ)

KURTZ "At first the church music was simple, artless, recitative. But rivalry of heretics forced the orthodox church to pay greater attention to the requirements of art. Chrysostom had to declaim against the secularization of church music. More lasting was the opposition to the introduction of instrumental music." (John Kurtz, Lutheran Scholar, Church History, Vol 1, p. 376)

LANG "All our sources deal amply with vocal music of the church, but they are chary with mention of any other manifestations of musical art . . . The development of Western music was decisively influenced by the exclusion of musical instruments from the early Christian Church." (Paul Henry Lang, Music in Western Civilization, p. 53-54)

LEICHTENTRITT "The Biblical precept to "sing" the psalms, not merely recite, them, was obeyed literally, as is testified by many statements in the writings of the saints. Pope Leo I, who lived about 450, expressly related that "the Psalms of David arc piously sung everywhere in the Church." Only singing however, and no playing of instruments, was permitted in the early Christian Church. In this respect the Jewish tradition was not continued. In the earlier Jewish temple service many instruments mentioned in-the Bible had been used. But instrumental music had been thoroughly discredited in the meantime by the lascivious Greek and Roman virtuoso music of the later ages, and it appeared unfit for the divine service. The aulos was held in especial abhorrence, whereas some indulgence was granted to the lyre and cithara, permitted by some saints at least for private worship, though not in church services. It is interesting to note that the later Jewish temple service has conformed to the early Christian practice and, contrary to Biblical tradition, has banned all instruments. Orthodox Jewish synagogues now object even to the use of the organ. (Hugo Leichtentritt, Music, History and Ideas, Howard University Press: Cambridge, 1958, p 34)

LONDON (London Encyclopedia says the organ is said to have been first introduced into church music in about 658AD.)

LORENZ "Yet there was little temptation to undue elaboration of hymnody or music. The very spirituality of the new faith made ritual or liturgy superfluous and music almost unnecessary. Singing (there was no instrumental accompaniment) was little more than a means of expressing in a practicable, social way, the common faith and experience. . . . The music was purely vocal. There was no instrumental accompaniment of any kind. . . . It fell under the ban of the Christian church, as did all other instruments, because of its pagan association" (E. S. Lorenz, Church Music, pp. 217, 250, 404)

LUTHER "The organ in the worship Is the insignia of Baal… The Roman Catholic borrowed it from the Jews." (Martin Luther, Mcclintock & Strong's Encyclopedia Volume VI, page 762)

MCCLINTOCK "The general introduction of instrumental music can certainly not be assigned to a date earlier than the 5th and 6th centuries; yea, even Gregory the Great, who towards the end of the 6th century added greatly to the existing church music, absolutely prohibited the use of instruments. Several centuries later the introduction of the organ in sacred service gave the place to instruments as accompaniments for Christian song, and from that time to this they have been freely used with few exceptions. The first organ is believed to have been used in the Church service in the 13th century. Organs were however, in use before this in the theater. They were never regarded with favor in the Eastern Church, and were vehemently opposed in some of the Western churches." (McClintock and Strong, Cyclopaedia of Biblical Literature, Vol 6, p. 759)

MCCLINTOCK Sir John Hawkins, following the Romanish writers in his erudite work on the history of music, made Pope Vitalian, in A.D. 660, the first who introduced organs into the churches. But students of ecclesiastical archaeology are generally agreed that instrumental music was not used in churches till a much later date; for Thomas Aquinas [Catholic Scholar in 1250 A.D.] has these remarkable words, 'Our church does not use musical instruments, as harps and psalteries, to praise God withal, that she may seem not to Judaize.'" (McClintock and Strong, Encyclopedia of Biblical Literature, Vol. 6, Harper and Brothers, New York, 1894, pg. 762.)

MCCLINTOCK "The Greek word 'psallo' is applied among the Greeks of modern times exclusively to sacred music, which in the Eastern Church has never been any other than vocal, instrumental music being unknown in that church, as it was in the primitive church." (McClintock & Strong, Vol. 8, p. 739).

NAUMAN "There can be no doubt that originally the music of the divine service was every where entirely of a vocal nature." (Emil Nauman, The History of Music. Vol. I, p. 177)

NEITHENINGTON (Exclusion of instrumental music from the church of England passed by only one vote in 1562, according to Neithenington's: History Of The Westminster Assembly Of Divines, p. 20)

NEWMAN "In 1699 the Baptists received an invitation from Thomas Clayton, rector of Christ Church, to unite with the Church of England. They replied in a dignified manner, declining to do so unless he could prove, "that the Church of Christ under the New Testament may consist or . . . a mixed multitude and their seed, even all the members of a nation, . . . whether they are godly or ungodly," that "lords, archbishops, etc., . . . are of divine institution and appointment," and that their vestments, liturgical services, use of mechanical instruments, infant baptism, sprinkling, "signing with the cross in baptism," etc., are warranted by Scripture." … "It may be interesting to note that this church (First Baptist Church of Newport, organized in 1644 cf. p. 88) was one of the first to introduce instrumental music. The instrument was a bass viol and caused considerable commotion. This occurred early in the nineteenth century.(Albert Henry Newman, A History of the Baptist Churches in the United States, American Baptist Publication Society 1915, p. 207, 255)

NICETA "It is time to turn to the New Testament to confirm what is said in the Old, and, particularly, to point out that the office of psalmody is not to be considered abolished merely because many other observances of the Old Law have fallen into disuse. Only the corporal institutions have been rejected, like circumcision, the Sabbath, sacrifices, discrimination of foods. So, too, the trumpets, harps, cymbals, and timbrels. For the sound of these we now have a better substitute in the music from the mouths of men. The daily ablutions, the new-moon observances, the careful inspection of leprosy are completely past and gone, along with whatever else was necessary only for a time - as it were, for children." (Niceta, a bishop of Remesian or Yugoslavia)

PAHLEN "These chants - and the word chant (and not music) is used advisedly, for many centuries were to pass before instruments accompanied the sung melodies." (Kurt Pahlen, Music of the World, p. 27)

PAPADOPOULOS "The execution of Byzantine church music by instruments, or even the accompaniment of sacred chanting by instruments, was ruled out by the Eastern Fathers as being incompatible with the pure, solemn, spiritual character of the religion of Christ. The Fathers of the church, in accordance with the example of psalmodizing of our Savior and the ho ly Apostles, established that only vocal music be used in the churches and severely forbade instrumental music as being secular and hedonic, and in general as evoking pleasure without spiritual value" (G. I. Papadopoulos, A Historical Survey of Byzantine Ecclesiastical Music (in Greek), Athens, 1904, pp. 10, II).

POSEY "For years the Baptists fought the introduction of instrumental music into the churches...Installation of the organ brought serious difficulties in many churches" (Wm. B. Posey, Baptist, The Baptist Church In The Lower Mississippi Valley).

PRESBYTERIAN "Question 6. Is there any authority for instrumental music in the worship of God under the present dispensation? Answer. Not the least, only the singing of psalms and hymns and spiritual songs was appointed by the apostles; not a syllable is said in the New Testament in favor of instrumental music nor was it ever introduced into the Church until after the eighth century, after the Catholics had corrupted the simplicity of the gospel by their carnal inventions. It was not allowed in the Synagogues, the parish churches of the Jews, but was confined to the Temple service and was abolished with the rites of that dispensation." (Questions on the Confession of Faith and Form of Government of The Presbyterian Church in the United States of America, published by the Presbyterian Board of Publications, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, 1842, pg. 55.)

PRATT "The, First Christian Songs. - Singing in public and private worship was a matter of course for the early Christians. For Jewish converts this was a continuance of synagogue customs, but since the Church grew mostly among non-Jews, the technical forms employed were more Greek than Hebrew. The use of instruments was long resisted, because of their association with pagan sensuality." (Waldo Selden Pratt, The History of Music, 1935, p. 64)

RIDDLE "In the first ages of the Christian church the psalms of David were always chanted or sung. In the Apostolic Constitutions (Book II, P. 57), we find it laid down an a rule that one of those officiating ministers should chant or sing psalms or David, and that the people should join by repeating the ends of the verses. The instruments of music were introduced into the Christians church in the ninth century. There were unknown alike to the early church and to all ancients. The large wind organ was known, however, long before it was introduced into the churches of the west. The first organ used in worship was one which was received by Charlemagne in France as a present from the Emperor Constantine.' (J.E. Riddle, Christian Antiquities, p. 384)

RITTER "We have no real knowledge of the exact character of the music which formed a part of the religious devotion of the first Christian congregations. It was, however purely vocal." (Frederic Louis Ritter, History of Music from the Christian Era to the Present Time, p. 28)

ROBERTSON "The word (psalleto) originally meant to play on a stringed instrument (Sir. 9:4), but it comes to be used also for singing with the voice and heart (Eph. 5:19; 1 Cor. 14:15), making melody with the heart also to the Lord" (A. T. Robertson, Baptist Greek scholar, Baptist Studies in the Nestle James, comment on James 5:13)

SCHAFF "The use of organs in churches is ascribed to Pope Vitalian (657-672). Constantine Copronymos sent an organ with other presents to King Pepin of France in 767. Charlemagne received one as a present from the Caliph Haroun al Rashid, and had it put up in the cathedral of Aixia-Chapelle... The attitude of the churches toward the organ varies. It shared, to some extent, the fate of images, except that it never was an object of worship... The Greek church disapproved the use of organs. The Latin church introduced it pretty generally, but not without the protest of eminent men, so that even in the Council of Trent a motion was made, though not carried, to prohibit the organ at least in the mass." (Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, Vol. 4, pg. 439.)

SHAFF "The first organ certainly known to exist and be used in a church was put in the cathedral at Aix-la-chapel by the German emperor, Charlemange, who came to the throne in 768AD. It met with great opposition among the Romanists, especially among the monks, and that it made its was but slowly into common use. So great was the opposition even as late as the 16th century that it would have been abolished by the council of Trent but for the influence of the Emperor Ferdinand…. In the Greek church the organ never came into use... The Reform church discarded it; and though the church of Basel very early introduced it, it was in other places admitted only sparingly and after long hesitation." (Shaff-Herzog Encyclopedia, Vol 2, p. 1702)

SCHAFF "It is questionable whether, as used in the New Testament, 'psallo' means more than to sing . . . The absence of instrumental music from the church for some centuries after the apostles and the sentiment regarding it which pervades the writing, the fathers are unaccountable, if in the apostolic church such music was used" (Schaff-Herzog, Vol. 3, p. 961).

SCHAFF "In the Greek church the organ never came into use. But after the 8th century it became more and more common in the Latin church; not without opposition from the side of the monks." (Schaff-Herzogg Encyclopedia, Vol 10, p. 657-658)

SHAFF (new) "The custom of organ accompaniment did not become general among Protestants until the eighteenth century." (The New Shaff-Herzogg Encyclopedia, 1953, Vol 10, p. 257)

SPURGEON "Praise the Lord with the harp. Israel was at school, and used childish things to help her to learn; but in these days when Jesus gives us spiritual food, one can make melody without strings and pipes. We do not need them. They would hinder rather than help our praise. Sing unto him. This is the sweetest and best music. No instrument like the human voice." (Commentary on Psalms 42:4) "David appears to have had a peculiarly tender remembrance of the singing of the pilgrims, and assuredly it is the most delightful part of worship and that which comes nearest to the adoration of heaven. What a degradation to supplant the intelligent song of the whole congregation by the theatrical prettiness of a quartet, bellows, and pipes! We might as well pray by machinery as praise by it." (Spurgeon preached to 20,000 people every Sunday for 20 years in the Metropolitan Baptist Tabernacle and never were mechanical instruments of music used in his services. When asked why, he quoted 1st Corinthians 14:15. "I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the understanding also; I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also." He then declared: "I would as soon pray to God with machinery as to sing to God with machinery." (Charles H. Spurgeon, Baptist)

SPURGEON "David appears to have had a peculiarly tender remembrance of the singing of the pilgrims, and assuredly it is the most delightful part of worship and that which comes nearest to the adoration of heaven. What a degradation to supplant the intelligent song of the whole congregation by the theatrical prettiness of a quartet, bellows, and pipes. We might as well pray by machinery as praise by it...
'Praise the Lord with harp.' Israel was at school, and used childish things to help her to learn; but in these days when Jesus gives us spiritual food, one can make melody without strings and pipes... We do not need them. That would hinder rather than help our praise. Sing unto him. This is the sweetest and best music. No instrument is like the human voice." (Charles Spurgeon (Baptist), Commentary on Psalm 42.)

TAPPER "Both sexes joined in singing, but instruments of every kind were prohibited for along time" (Thomas Tapper, Essentials of Music History, p. 34)

THEODORET "107. Question: If songs were invented by unbelievers to seduce men, but were allowed to those under the law on account of their childish state, why do those who have received the perfect teaching of grace in their churches still use songs, just like the children under the law? Answer: It is not simple singing that belongs to the childish state, but singing with lifeless instruments, with dancing, and with clappers. Hence the use of such instruments and the others that belong to the childish state is excluded from the singing in the churches, and simple singing is left." (Theodoret, a bishop of Cyrhus in Syria, Questions and Answers for the Orthodox)

WELIESZ "So far as we can tell the music of the early Church was almost entirely vocal, Christian usage following in this particular the practice of the Synagogue, in part for the same reasons." (New Oxford History of Music, Vol 1, Egon Weliesz, 1957, p. 30)

WESLEY 'I have no objection to instruments of music in our worship, provided they are neither seen nor heard." (John Wesley, founder of Methodism, quoted in Adam Clarke's Commentary, Vol. 4, p. 685)


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[To be continued…]

 
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Donnie Cruz
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72.150.119.22

What did early Christians believe about…? (Part III)

December 12 2006, 12:26 AM 


Source: http://www.bible.ca/H-music.htm

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RESTORATION LEADERS:


CAMPBELL "[Instrumental music in worship] was well adapted to churches founded on the Jewish pattern of things and practicing infant sprinkling. That all persons singing who have no spiritual discernment, taste or relish for spiritual meditation, consolations and sympathies of renewed hearts should call for such an aid is but natural. So to those who have no real devotion and spirituality in them, and whose animal nature flags under the opposition or the oppression of church service I think that instrumental music would... be an essential prerequisite to fire up their souls to even animal devotion. But I presume, that to all spiritually-minded Christians, such aid would be as a cow bell in a concert." (Alexander Campbell, recorded in Robert Richardson's biography, Memoirs of Alexander Campbell, Vol. 2., p366)

FRANKLIN "If any one had told us, 40 years ago, that we would live to see the day where those professing to be Christians who claim the Holy Scriptures as their only rule of faith and practice, those under the command, and who profess to appreciate the meaning of the command to 'observe whatsoever I have commanded you' would bring instruments of music into a worshipping assembly and use it there in worship, we should have repelled the idea as an idle dream. But this only shows how little we knew of what men would do; or how little we saw of the power of the adversary to subvert the purest principles, to deceive the hearts of the simple, to undermine the very foundation of all piety, and turn the very worship of God itself into an attraction for the people of the world and entertainment, or amusement." (Benjamin Franklin, Gospel Preacher, Vol 2, p. 411, 419-429)

FRANKLIN "Instrumental music is permissible for a church under the following conditions: 1. When a church never had or has lost the Spirit of Christ. 2. If a church has a preacher who never had or has lost the Spirit of Christ, who has become a dry, prosing and lifeless preacher. 3. If a church only intends being a fashionable society, a mere place of amusements and secular entertainment and abandoning the idea of religion and worship. 4. If a church has within it a large number of dishonest and corrupt men. 5. If a church has given up all idea of trying to convert the world." (Ben Franklin, editor of American Christian Review, 1860.)

LIPSCOMB "Neither he [Paul] nor any other apostle, nor the Lord Jesus, nor any of the disciples for five hundred years, used instruments. This too, in the face of the fact that the Jews had used instruments in the days of their prosperity and that the Greeks and heathen nations all used them in their worship. They were dropped out with such emphasis that they were not taken up till the middle of the Dark Ages, and came in as part of the order of the Roman Catholic Church. It seems there cannot be doubt but that the use of instrumental music in connection with the worship of God, whether used as a part of the worship or as an attraction accompaniment, is unauthorized by God and violates the oft-repeated prohibition to add nothing to, take nothing from, the commandments of the Lord. It destroys the difference between the clean and the unclean, the holy and unholy, counts the blood of the Son of God unclean, and tramples under foot the authority of the Son of God. They have not been authorized by God or sanctified with the blood of his Son." (David Lipscomb, Queries and Answers by David Lipscomb p. 226-227, and Gospel Advocate, 1899, p. 376-377)

MCGARVEY "And if any man who is a preacher believes that the apostle teaches the use of instrumental music in the church by enjoining the singing of psalms, he is one of those smatters in Greek who can believe anything that he wishes to believe. When the wish is father to the thought, correct exegesis is like water on a duck's back" (J. W. McGarvey, Biblical Criticism, p. 116).

MCGARVEY "We cannot, therefore, by any possibility, know that a certain element of worship is acceptable to God in the Christian dispensation, when the Scriptures which speak of that dispensation are silent in reference to it. To introduce any such element is unscriptural and presumptuous. It is will worship, if any such thing as will worship can exist. On this ground we condemn the burning of incense, the lighting of candles, the wearing of priestly robes, and the reading of printed prayers. On the same ground we condemn instrumental music." (J.W. McGarvey, The Millennial Harbinger, 1864, pp. 511-513.)

MCGARVEY "It is manifest that we cannot adopt the practice with out abandoning the obvious and only ground On Which a restoration of Primitive Christianity can be accomplished, or on which the plea for it can be maintained. Such is my profound conviction, and consequently, the question with me is not one concerning the choice or rejection of an expedient, but the maintenance or abandonment of a fundamental and necessary principle." (J. W. McGarvey, Apostolic Timer 1881, and What Shall We Do About the Organ? p. 4, 10)

MILLIGAN "The tendency of instrumental music is, t in , to divert the minds of many from the sentiment of the song to the mere sound of the organ, and in this way it often serves to promote formalism in Churches" (Robert Milligan, Scheme of Redemption, p. 386).

PINKERTON "So far as known to me, or I presume to you, I am the only 'preacher' in Kentucky of our brotherhood who has publicly advocated the propriety of employing instrumental music in some churches, and that the church of God in Midway is the only church that has yet made a decided effort to introduce it" (L. L. Pinkerton, American Christian Review, 1860, as quoted by Cecil Willis in W. W. Otey: Contender for the Faith).

STONE "We have just received an extraordinary account of about 30,000 Methodists in England, withdrawing from that church and connexion, because the Conference disapproved of the introduction of instrumental music to the churches. The full account shall appear in our next. To us, backwoods Americans, this conduct of those seceders appears be the extreme of folly, and it argues that they have a greater taste for music, than they have for religion. Editor." (Barton Stone, Christian Messenger, vol. 3, No. 2, Dec. 1828, p. 48 in bound volume)

WEST "Apostasy in music among 19th century churches that had endeavored to restore New Testament authority in worship and work began, in the main, following the Civil War' In 1868, Ben Franklin guessed that there were ten thousand congregations an not over fifty had used an instrument in worship." (Earl West, Search for the Ancient Order, Vol. 2, pp. 80, 81)


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Chris
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63.79.232.10

Clarification please...

December 14 2006, 1:01 PM 

Donnie, Bill Crump and others...

Let me preface my comments with the following: I am, and have always been, one who believes in acappela worship... I have believed such based on the following arguments: [1] silence of scripture, and [2] historical evidence... However, I am ashamed to say that I have never researched the historical evidence on my own, I have simply relied on the "thus sayeth the scholars" comments that I have always heard... For one, I appreciate your posting all the above quotes for our consideration... However, I do have a question, and would appreciate some clarification regarding something I noticed in those comments...

First, according to the following quotes, it appears that the early church did not use instruments in worship to God because they didn't want to resemble the Jewish or heathen people around them, not because of apostolic command or example from Christ... Would you agree with that assessment????

AQUINAS "Our church does not use musical instruments, as harps and psalteries, to praise God withal, that she may not seem to Judaize." (Thomas Aquinas, Bingham's Antiquities, Vol. 3, page 137)

AUGUSTINE "musical instruments were not used. The pipe, tabret, and harp here associate so intimately with the sensual heathen cults, as well as with the wild revelries and shameless performances of the degenerate theater and circus, it is easy to understand the prejudices against their use in the worship." (Augustine 354 A.D., describing the singing at Alexandria under Athanasius)

Second, if that is the case, would that mean that instruments of music should be considered a matter of opinion or preference???

Please understand, I don't like the use of such in worship... I do not advocate it, but I want to be honest in my understand and application of scripture... I look forward to your replies...

 
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Ken Sublett
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66.82.9.85

not a matter of opinion.

December 14 2006, 11:38 PM 

They would APPEAR just like the pagans. Pretty good reason?

They would APPEAR just like the theater. Good?

They Woudl appear like the Jews. Didn't Paul warn about that.

The Catholics said that they ADDED music because it was COMMON TO ALL PAGAN CULTS. However, the Catholics neverr SANG with INSTRUMENTAL accompaniment.

However, none of these quoted men just WOKE UP and deciaded "We will not use instrumetns to keep from looking like a theater or pagans." It simply would never occur to anyone who understood the meaning of ekklesia or synagogue or school of the Bible to, in their wildest, think of BEGINNING to paganize or Judaize.

Alexander Campbell wrote little about Instrumental music because the unthinkable happened and no one was prepared for it. I haven't diatribed about belly dancing on the communion table because only NOW do I wake up and say that it COULD happen.

We were and children ARE abused children and even adults by men trained as New Testament Preachers which meant that they had a stack of sermon outlines and never understood the universal association of MUSIC and telling God to SHUT YOUR MOUTH. Sure,, there are direct commands NOT to blow instruments and "make a joyful noise before the Lord" when the qahal, synagogue or church in the wilderness was commanded to hold Holy Convocations to REST (Sabbath does not mean Saturday), READ and Rehears. That is what Simeon told the collected body to explain to the Gentiles that they should observe proper morality: they were familira with the standards of the Law because:

Moses was PREACHED every sabbath
Being READ in the synangogues.

That was the EXAMPLE of Jesus, the direct command of Paul, his own practice when he SYNAGOGUED out on mission, his direct command to Timothy and the universal practice of the historic church. You don't need room for opinions when the ONLY PURPOSE of church is A SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE or the Campbells restored THE SCHOOL OF CHRIST. There is nothing youu can do to ENHANCE that which is written and Paul and Peter marks false teachers as those elders who do NOT "teach that which has been taught."

You only need NEW OPINIONS when those Paul called ROBBERS take over the body and make it SOMETHING OTHER than commanded, exampled and inferenced.

The Richland Hills man SHOUTS violently AGAINST anti-instrumentalists and lies about EVERY passage in the Bible because he has NO CLUE to the history of the Old Testament or the CONTEXT of the events out of which he is PLUCKING his "paraphrased statements' when the CONTEXTS all prove that Music was violently opposed by all of the PROPHETS while the PRIESTS were operatives of the Civil- GENTIL-LIKE Monarchy to which god ABANDONED them because of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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66.217.162.101

Rejecting Instrumental Music Not a Matter of Preference

December 15 2006, 11:54 AM 

For whatever additional reasons the early Christians may have had for not using IM in worship, such as to avoid appearing like the Jews, pagans, and the theater, let’s give them some credit for first following apostolic example by not going beyond the things that were written in the New Covenant, as Paul warned in 1 Corinthians 4:6. Since the New Covenant or Testament specified only vocal music in Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16, there was no need to address IM. The early Christians knew not to add IM, because to do so would have been to go beyond what was written. On the other hand, had the NT only said to “make music in worship,” then we would have been free to use IM, because of the lack of specificity. Detractors of churches of Christ perpetually accuse us of rejecting IM simply out of preference. Those detractors make such accusations because they reject obedience to New Testament directives and because they are ignorant of Church history. The latter has shown that it was the scripturally obtuse who supplanted and polluted the New Testament Scriptures with their man-contrived doctrines, who ultimately stepped in and added their preferences for IM and other scripturally unauthorized practices.


 
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Ken Sublett
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69.19.14.43

Further PROOF at RICHLANDS forum about SORCERY.

December 16 2006, 10:29 AM 

Anything that YOU can do to another to CAUSE mental arousal, which is ANXIETY, is defined as ENCHANTMENT (Lucifer the singing and harp-playing prostitute, or the serpent meaning Musical Enchanter) or SORCERY by John in Revelaation 18 by the speakers, singers and musicians ruled by the Mother of Harlots. Jesus points to the mouth religionists specificially speakers, singers and musicians as EXAMPLES of Hypocrites. The Greek word HYPOCRITE firstly identifies RHETORICIANS who wreck the most spirits and anyone who PERFORMS in singing, acting, instruments or dancing: The Greek word MUSIC almost demands DANCING.

The GOSPEL is "come to me all ye that labor and are heave laden and I will give you REST." The laded burden is "spiritual anxiety created by religious rituals." Paul outlawed the SELF-PLEASING in Romans 15 which is defined as "creation of mental excitement." The WEAPONS of all of those practicing SORCERY were MUSICAL. That is why one hebrew word defines WEAPON and also PSALTERY. In Greek one concept defnes Carnal Weapons and Lifeless Instruments. Music ALWAYS intends to work some UNDUE influence on the emotion and spirit of another and USUALLY for money: that is why MUSICIAN parses to PROSTITUTE in all ages.

The KEY is Simple Simon Sez: You CANNOT give heed (Paul's only worship concept) to Jesus and HIS word while you are getting arroused by a HYPOCRITE inducing spiritual anxiety so that you are FORCED to give heed to HIS / HERS / ITS words and BODY WORSHIP. That feeling is an UNholy spirit.

WHAT IS THE CLEAR STATEMENT OF SCRIPTURE AGREEING WITH ALL KNOWN EVIDENCE?

The Bible identifies MUSIC as the WEAPON of Lucifer--the singing and harp playing prostitute--to keep people FROM giving HEED (Paul's only worship word) to the Word of God WITHOUT human mediators.

The Bible and the literature identifies music as the art of the SORCERER/S. "Don't get drunk on wine" is always seen in the Greek resources as "getting FLUTED" or "PIPED down with wine." Music was always co PARTNER with wine drinking. Therefore, Paul OUTLAWED it in using the word SPEAK or PREACH or TEACH and not MAKE MUSIC.

Church scholars had not THOUGHT of using music in the Ekklesia or church because they knew that its EFFECTS--whatever its motives--was SORCERY or witchcraft. The Familiar Spirit of the Witch of Endor was an echoing Empty Wineskin.
    Rev 18:14 And the fruits (fruits is fruits, says Amos about music) that thy soul LUSTED after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.

    Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
    Rev 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying,
    Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

Cast or thrown down is the word which defines Jesus casting out the MUSICAL MINSTRELS using a word meaning LIKE DUNG. It is the same as the Hebrew which defines "Lucifer CAST AS PROFANE out of heaven." It can mean "play the flute, pollute or prostitute." It iis never used meaning WORSHIP.
    Rev 18:22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians [Apollyon's muses or locusts] and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, [theater builders and stage managers] of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone [called a pipe, made a wistling sound to attract] shall be heard no more at all in thee;

    Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

No one in church history could misunderstand that fact.

Because the church fathers--the Sectarians repudiate with all history--could read Revelation 18, the rest of the Bible and the universal understanding that MUSIC was a way to fondly people's private parts and cause them to react in a certain way, we hear one testimony which--with all of the rest--proves that the church did not reject instruments because they were "ignorant, southern red-necks" as the false teachers love to claim:

Aphrahat 4th century

http://www.piney.com/FathAphrahatDemon.html#Now
    19. Now thus is faith; when a man believes in God the Lord of all, Who made the heavens and the earth and the seas and all that is in them; and He made Adam in His image; and He gave the Law to Moses; He sent of His Spirit upon the prophets; He sent moreover His Christ into the world.

    Furthermore that a man should believe in the resurrection of the dead; and should furthermore also believe in the sacrament of baptism.
    This is the faith of the Church of God. And (it is necessary) that a man should separate himself
    from the observance of hours and Sabbaths and moons and seasons,
    and divinations and SORCERIES and Chaldaean arts and magic,


    Musica and Magica and Exegetice are related words: that is why Peter outlawed private interpretation or further expounding which is the MARK of a false teacher. That seem to fit?

    from fornication and from festive music, from vain doctrines,
    which are instruments of the Evil One,

    from the blandishment of honeyed words, from blasphemy and from adultery.

    And that a man should not bear false witness, and that a man should not speak with double tongue. These then are the works of the faith which is based on the true Stone which is Christ, on Whom the whole building is reared up.

You will notice that he understood what EVERYONE understood: arousal music is associated with blasphemy and fornication. In the same way, Paul associated "URGED" giving--even for the destitute--with fornication.
Aphrahat arees with the Bible and will also tell you that religious music comes from Satan. Of course, most music is used to seduce people out of theri money with no lasting benefit. That is why musicians were called parasites.

Tom Burgess and ALL of the musicators appeal to Plutarch on Pericles for authority.

Plutarch, Lives Pericles

IV. His teacher in music, most writers state, was Damon (whose name, they say, should be pronounced with the first syllable short); but Aristotle says he had a thorough MUSICAL training at the hands of Pythocleides.

Now Damon seems to have been a consummate SOPHIST,

DAMON
"Rise, Lucifer, and, heralding the light,
bring in the genial day, while I make moan
fooled by vain passion for a faithless bride,
for Nysa, and with this my dying breath
call on the gods, though little it bestead--
the gods who heard her vows and heeded not.
'Begin, my flute, with me Maenalian lays.'

    Lucifer or Phosphorus "the bringer of light"). The name of the planet Venus, when seen in the morning before sunrise. The same planet was called Hesperus, Vesperugo, Vesper, Noctifer, or Nocturnus, when it appeared in the heavens after sunset. Lucifer as a personification is called a son of Astraeus and Aurora or Eos, of Cephalus and Eos, or of Atlas By Philonis he is said to have been the father of Ceyx. He is also called the father of Daedalion and of the Hesperides. Lucifer is also a surname of several goddesses of light, as Artemis, Aurora, and Hecaté. [Also ZOE]
but to have taken REFUGE behind the name of MUSIC
in order to CONCEAL from the multitude his REAL power,
and he associated with Pericles, that political athlete,
as it were, in the capacity of RUBBER and TRAINER.
[2] However, Damon was not left unmolested in this use of his LYRE as a SCREEN,
but was ostracized for being a great SCHEMER and a friend of TYRANNY,
and became a BUTT of the comic poets.


Damon taught and Plato recorded: "When the MUSIC CHANGES it is a sign that the LAWS ARE CHANGING. At FIRST music must be introduced as ENTERTAINMENT" because everyone KNOWS that if you tried to SUBVERT the church without using Musical Worship Concepts they would get fired.
Why would those using RACA words against those who repudiate EFFEMINATE so-called worship CHOOSE all of those "fellas" and their ACTIVITY to prove THEIR authority to USE music and musicians? Are they hiding?

 
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Jimmy Wren
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199.227.205.202

Where did Servant Go?

December 20 2006, 1:20 PM 

This has been a very enlighting thread. With all of the wonderful references posted by Donnie and Dr. Crump; the good lessons by piney.

I would like for Servant to challenge some of the references cited on this thread. I find it odd for a person to just "brush" these references under the rug and not respond to them.

As to piney not believing in singing, servant is just not reading piney's post! Piney has written it often, just as it is stated in the Word of God, "Speaking to yourselves...." The melody and the music is to be in the "speaker's" heart.

The Scripture's say, "Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;" Ephesians 5:19. One part of this verse belongs to the congregation and the other part belongs to God. The "speaking" of the hymns, psalms, and spiritual songs is for the congregation but that which is in the heart is for God. The "speaking" is heard by those around you but that which is in the heart, i.e., the singing and making melody, is the praise offered to God. No one else can "speak" for you and no one else can "praise" God for you. All of the "praise teams" and "praise ministers" in this world cannot praise God for you!!!!

There are some folks today, such as Servant, who had just as soon forget the "speaking" and the "heart - where the music and melody" is to be made. They want the "music and melody" to be made through the microphones! In fact, more money and time is spent on the "music and Melody," in churches that have a praise minister and praise teams then is spent on local evanglism.

Just check your church's budget. At this time of year most all of the churches are presenting the budget for 2007. Notice how much money goes to the praise minister, the praise teams, supplies and literature for praise, recording equipment, blank CD's, computers and internet ISP's, trips to perform at locations other then the church. All of this money taken from the church's treasury and given to the newly created church robber's who have labeled themselves as the "Praise Institute for the brotherhood of believer's." All an institute does is steal the money from the destitute, i.e., institutes with anything to do with religion.

This is the church that servant has helped to create and promote.

Servant on another thread you wrote that Donnie, Dr. Crump, and Jimmy don't like you. This is not true. I don't see you as an unlikeable person. I don't consider you to not be a Christian. I do consider you to be in error on some of your teachings, thus the reason I am glad that you are not an elder. Music is one of those teachings. I have not and will not challenge you as a brother but I do and will challenge your teachings.

Servant, I hope you will now address some of the references posted by Donnie and Dr. Crump.

In Christ,
Jimmy


 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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66.19.67.154

Re: Where did Servant Go?

December 21 2006, 1:56 AM 

Jimmy,

Earlier, I had challenged Servant to produce historical evidence that the early Christians DID use IM in their worship, as Servant seemed to believe. His response implied that he could not produce such evidence, but then he proceeded to deny the evidence we had presented that early Christians did NOT use IM in their worship. So what does that tell you?

 
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Ken Sublett
(no login)
66.82.9.84

Clemente: was he a ball player?

December 22 2006, 7:49 PM 

Rick Atchley and other false teachers: No church father condemns Music. IN fact, Clement says that

And even if you wish to sing and play to the harp or lyre, there is no blame


TRUTH SPEAKER: Well, out of context it SOUNDS like Rick is a TRUTH SPEAKER. However, he LIFTS out of context because Clement wrote much more which grasps that church was a time and place to read and chant (not metrical, not musical) the Psalms and other Biblical text to TEACH and ADMONISH one another. Isn't that so simple that the PhDuh's missed it.

Rick: There was no criticism of INSTRUMENTAL PRAISE.

TRUTH SPEAKER: I cannot think that ANY one would ever use the term INSTRUMENTAL PRAISE. David, speaking poetically, said that only things with BREATH can praise God. How about a PRAYER WHELL and just sleep in and save your money?

I can understand why our children MOLLESTED by "sunday cut N paste" might escape hell for denying what ALL of the christian church writers repeat, repeat, repeat. However, if that is part of your FOUNDATION for moving a church into what all church fathers and founders of denominations would call PAGANISM you have placed yourself under a sentence of hell.

For the full story which you might STUDY instead of listening to an UNLAWFUL SERMON which was imposed about the time singing was imposed by pagan priests who moves smoothly into the "church."

http://www.piney.com/FathClPed2.html

Chapter IV.-How to Conduct Ourselves at Feasts.


Let revelry keep away from our rational entertainments, and foolish vigils, too, that revel in intemperance. For revelry is an inebriating pipe, the chain of an amatory bridge, that is, of sorrow. And let love, and intoxication, and senseless passions, be removed from our choir. Burlesque singing is the boon companion of drunkenness. A night spent over drink invites drunkenness, rouses lust, and is audacious in deeds of shame.

For if people occupy their time with pipes, and psalteries, and choirs, and dances, and Egyptian clapping of hands, and such disorderly frivolities,they become quite immodest and intractable, beat on cymbals and drums, and make a noise on instruments of delusion ; for plainly such a banquet, as seems to me, is a theatre of drunkenness.

For the apostle decrees that, "putting off the works of darkness, we should put on the armour of light, walking honestly as in the day, not spending our time in rioting and drunkenness, in chambering and wantonness."
Let the pipe be resigned to the shepherds,
and the flute to the superstitious who are engrossed in idolatry.


The THESIS of the Vineyard, aka New Wineskins Heresy is to use music to bring on EXHILARATION: just the thing Jesus died to remove along with the Holy Bartenders. You are in fact "drunk without" wine if the music alters your mind to make you PLEASURE. Who could HONESTLY appeal to Clement when he OUTLAWS even in the private life the very instruments Ricky wants to import. Remember, that Max proposes soft strings in a separate "room" but once the camel gets his FOOT into your tent the intent is to go "all the way." You cannot believe anyone who lies about ALL of the Bible and all known history.

Readers of whole thought patterns will see that even in PRIVATE MEALS the use of flutes or other wind instruments were suitable for immorality and IDOLATRY. Yea, superstitious because they STILL believe that God can be controlled or appeased with flutes (meaning to pollute or prostitute.)

However, Clement allows the lyre for private fellowship but then ALLEGORIZES it. Instruments were outlawed even in Christian meals because of the EFFECTS it has on the mind of people. Is that NOT a good enough reason NOT to do it? Only if you are brain dead do you need a LAW. Fact is, the word PSALLO outlawed everything but that which has a string to PULL: it outlaws the PLECTRUM. Sure, Clement was bible literate.

For, in truth, such instruments are to be banished from the temperate banquet, being more suitable to beasts than men, and the more irrational portion of mankind.

How are you going to make a dead man lie and say that it IS ACCEPTABLE to use wind instruments or clap hands IN CHURCH?
    Chalal (h2490) khaw-lal'; a prim. root [comp. 2470]; prop. to bore, i. e. (by impl.) to wound, to dissolve; fig. to profane (a person, place or thing), to break (one's word), to begin (as if by an "opening wedge"); denom. (from 2485) to play (the flute): - begin (* men began), defile, * break, defile, * eat (as common things), * first, * gather the grape thereof, * take inheritance, pipe, player on instruments, pollute, (cast as) profane (self), prostitute, slay (slain), sorrow, stain, wound.
For we have heard of stags being charmed by the pipe, and seduced by music into the toils, when hunted by the huntsmen.

And when mares are being covered, a tune is played on the flute -a nuptial song, as it were.
And every improper sight and sound, to speak in a word, and every shameful sensation of licentiousnes"-which, in truth, is privation of sensation-must by all means be excluded and we must be on our guard against whatever pleasure titillates eye and ear, and EFFEMINATES. For the various spells of the broken strains and plaintive numbers of the Carian muse corrupt men's morals, drawing to perturbation of mind, by the licentious and mischievous art of music.


Jesus DIED to remove this PERTUBATION OF MIND which is the ONLY thing music produces. Paul also outlaw "creation of mental excitement. Music, in fact, SHUTS DOWN the rational mind and appeals ONLY to the emotion: lie all you want but it is JUST entertainment.

The MUSICAL and SEXUAL or HOMOSEXUAL connection is absolute in paganism. The church did not REFUSE to use instruments just because the PROSTITUTES used it. No, dumbo, they refused to USE it because they knew that MUSIC unfairly manipulates all of the PRIVATE PARTS and not just the ear drums. This, science knows, induces FIGHT, FLIGHT or SEXUALITY. Those DISCORDING the church cannot be what they appear to be.

ALL OF THESE INSTRUMENTS ARE EXCLUDED EVEN FROM PRIVATE MEALS

The Spirit, distinguishing from such REVELRY the divine service, sings,
    "Praise Him with the sound of trumpet ; "for with sound of trumpet He shall raise the dead.

    "Praise Him on the psaltery ; "for the TONGE is the psaltery of the Lord.
    "And praise Him on the lyre." By the lyre is meant the MOUTH struck by the Spirit, as it were by a PLECTRUM.

    "Praise with the timbrel and the dance," refers to the Church meditating on the resurrection of the dead in the resounding skin.
    "Praise Him on the chords and organ." Our body He calls an organ, and its nerves are the strings,
    by which it has received harmonious tension, and when struck by the Spirit, it gives forth human voices.
    "Praise Him on the clashing cymbals." He calls the tongue the cymbal of the mouth, which resounds with the pulsation of the lips.

    Therefore He cried to humanity,
    "Let every breath praise the Lord," because He cares for every breathing thing which He hath made . For man is truly a pacific instrument; while other instruments, if you investigate, you will find to be warlike, inflaming to lusts, or kindling up amours, or rousing wrath.
In their wars, therefore, the Etruscans use the trumpet, the Arcadians the pipe, the Sicilians the pectides, the Cretans the lyre, the Lacedaemonians the flute, the Thracians the horn, the Egyptians the drum, and the Arabians the cymbal.


This reads much lie the Psalms of the Dead Sea which has Jesus using the INSTRUMENTS OF GOD which He gave us for that purpose AFTER his defeat of Satan.

He is now CLEARLY speaking about the CHURCH ASSEMBLY where NO instruments are allowed nor RATIONALLY lusted for. Remembering Romans 15, Ephesians and Collosians and understanding EKKLESIA he DIRECT COMMANDED that:

The one instrument of peace, the Word alone by which we honour God, is what we employ.
    We no longer employ the ancient psaltery, and trumpet, and timbrel, and flute,
    which those expert in war and contemners of the fear of God were wont to make use of

    also in the choruses at their festive assemblies;
    that by such strains they might raise their dejected minds. But let our genial feeling in drinking be twofold, in accordance with the law.
For "if thou shalt love the Lord try God," and then "thy neighbour,"
1. let its first manifestation be towards God in thanksgiving and psalmody, and
2. the second toward our neighbour in decorous fellowship.

For says the apostle, "Let the Word of the Lord dwell in you richly." And this Word suits and conforms Himself to seasons, to persons, to places. In the present instance He is a guest with us. For the apostle adds again, "Teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, in psalms, and hymns, and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your heart to God." And again, "Whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and His Father." This is our thankful revelry.


That PRETTY MUCH outlaws Twila Paris and the Musical Rocking fella? Fellowship would be outside of the assemblies where it was common to gather for a meal because people might travel all day to attend.

Love of God is expressed in thanksgiving and psalmody. Love of NEIGHBOR is in DECOROUS FELLOWSHIP. And "outside of church"

And even if you wish to sing and play to the harp or lyre, there is no blame. 104
    Note 104 [Here instrumental music is allowed, though he turns everything into a type.]

    FURTHERMORE: the subject is HOW TO CONDUCT OURSELVES AT FEASTS: not in church. This is restated so that Clement has OUTLAWED all but quiet string instruments EVEN IN PRIVATE dinner parties!
Thou shalt imitate the righteous Hebrew king in his thanksgiving to God. "Rejoice in the Lord, ye righteous; praise is comely to the upright," says the prophecy.

"Confess to the Lord on the harp ; play to Him on the psaltery of ten strings. Sing to Him a new song."
And does not the ten-stringed psaltery indicate the Word Jesus, who is manifested by the element of the decad?
And as it is befitting, before partaking of food, that we should bless the Creator of all; so also in drinking it is suitable to praise Him on partaking of His creatures. For the psalm is a melodious and sober blessing. The apostle calls the psalm "a spiritual song."


Earlier, he had written:

The Holy Spirit, uttering His voice by Amos, pronounces the rich to be wretched on account of their luxury: "Those that drink strained wine, and recline on an ivory couch," he says; and what else similar he adds by way of reproach.

Especial regard is to be paid to decency (as the myth represents Athene, whoever she was, out of regard to it, giving up the pleasure of the flute because of the unseemliness of the sight ):

    Note 77 [Here Clement satirizes heathen manners, and quote Athene, to shame Christians who imitate them.]
There is not a single historical reference the musical crowd do not deliberately pervert knowing that most of the fools can be fooled enough to fill the collection plates DIVERTED from the destitute.

 
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Ken Sublett
(no login)
69.19.14.37

Plucking the Right Ventricle.

December 24 2006, 7:47 PM 

You know that you need a new secretary of defense when the "warriors" hear the commander shout "RETREAT" and they ATTACK while clapping and singing. When they get out of captivity and rehab they tell the press: 'Huh, I ain't no dummy: he DIDN'T say that I COULD NOT attack."

I used to believe the Musicators when they said that SPEAK means MAKE MUSIC. When I gradulated from teaching with their hands, I RED the RIGHTING and found out that the word SPEAK in the Greak language means OPPOSITE TO MUSIC I said to myself: "Self, why IS it that the Spirit OF Christ is smarter than Rubel or Rick or Harry when THEY say "that was the OLDEN Jesus" and he didn't KNOW that culture changes?

These famous peole also say--while being USED by the musicators--that making melody was WITH the heart. Now, if you keep on PLUCKING your heart and suddenly letting go to leave a MARK as it goes "THWACK," you will go into Cadillac Arrest.

And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the WORKS of their OWN hands. Acts 7:41

Now, I know that even of the temple which Stephen said was NOT what God promised David, people were not worshiping in HOUSES or or using WORKS of human hands. But, that was B.M. (Before Me) and God DID NOT SAY "thou shalt NOT worship with thy HANDS" or Machines which we have proven means WORKS as in LEGALISM.

Now, even people B.M. which was B.C. people could grasp the differrence between MAKING MERRY as WASTFUL and when you get GROWED UP you learn like a MAN and your SPIRIT WAXES greater and greater.
    Rejoice is Euphrainô

    II. Pass., make merry, enjoy oneself

    Homer Odyssey 2. Then wise Telemachus answered him: [310] “Antinous,
    in no wise is it possible for me in your overweening company to sit at meat quietly and to make merry with an easy mind.
      Is it not enough, ye wooers, that in time past ye wasted many goodly possessions of mine, while I was still a child?
      But now that I am grown, [315] and gain knowledge by hearing the words of others,
      yea and my spirit waxes within me, I will try how I may hurl forth upon your evil fates.
FATES are what the Calvinist worship.

 
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vince young
(Login vinceyoung)
69.137.94.250

Re: Reply to Servant's Post on the Jeff Walling and Instrumental Music Thread

December 30 2006, 3:08 PM 

Jimmy... so the bible was talking and mentioning about Churches of Christ only? So what you are saying that the only legit and biblically recognized church is the Church of Christ?

I personally attend a "Church of Christ" although it would probably not be on your "list" of churches of Christ that are doing things the "right way". My brother attends a Presbyterian church... and although he is very serious in his commitment to serve Jesus Christ and be a servant to others, he is probably condemned, right?? How do you think I should break the news to him???

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
66.217.126.179

Re: Reply to Servant's Post on the Jeff Walling and Instrumental Music Thread

December 30 2006, 5:01 PM 

People can be seriously committed to Christ (have good intentions), but there is only one way to serve Christ, and that is His Way, which is outlined in the New Testament. If one's "service" and "belief" in Christ are done in a way and manner which He did not specify or command, either through the Gospels or through the apostolic writers (that is, if one is given over to man-contrived doctrines and practices), then that "service" and "belief" are null and void, and all one's good intentions are moot. And we all have heard the old adage that, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." So whether one calls himself a "Church of Christ" or "Presbyterian," if one does not follow Christ's Way, the one-and-only Way, then all is indeed lost.

 
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vinceyoung
(Login vinceyoung)
69.137.94.250

Re: Reply to Servant's Post on the Jeff Walling and Instrumental Music Thread

December 30 2006, 11:42 PM 

DR. Bill... while I agree that good intentions don't always mean that you are doing the right thing... I don't understand how you can go wrong in your Christian walk if you are constantly trying to strive to be like Jesus Christ. Jesus came to Earth to ABOLISH the law. The whole message of Jesus was that we should serve others and always look out for the best interests of others over our own... PLAIN AND SIMPLE!! In fact, he chastised the Pharisies that got so caught up in dotting every "I" and crossing every "T" as far as the law and it's rules and regulations.

I agree that we are called to live Holy lives before God and to strive to be as obeidiant as humanly possible to him... I just think that you guys that run this website are completely missing the point as far as what Jesus Christ wants from us. Is it all about walking a legalistic tightrope and hoping that the reason that you walk this tightroe is legit... or is it all about serving others and living your life to constantly die to yourself and show love to the world???

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

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The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

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This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
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2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
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