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Re: Max

March 19 2007, 12:36 AM 


I forgot to add that the reason we all called him an ex-baptist preacher was because of the story he used to tell everyone from the pulpit of finding grace through a baptist preacher on a radio station. He also didn't agree with the teachings at ACU (ACC at that time). He has always stated that he thanked the Baptist for their teachings. This was way before he arrived at Oak Hills.

He also stated quite clearly, after arriving at Oak Hills, that he didn't believe in baptism as the Church of Christ did (he agreed more with the Baptist). In fact, Dr. Holly wrote numerous letters chastising Lucado for being a fake Church of Christ preacher. Dr. Holly disliked the CofC and was upset with MAx for not being brave enough to admit his true beliefs. He personally spoke with him in the early 1990's and was promised that Max was not one of the old line Church of Christ type. He was just a Christian...

And you wonder why the other Churches became upset with him? Most Church of Christ preachers did not associate him with the Church of Christ and began asking him to remove "Church of Christ" from the name of Oakhills back in 1990. My father was one of them.

By the way, since Max has stepped down due to his minor heart problems, I wonder who will take his place?

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(Login concernedaswell)

Re: Goodpasture info

March 18 2007, 11:01 PM 

You are correct that Gil Drake has never worked in education but the school is getting better since he took over. I am a graduate of Goodpasture, my kids attend there, and I have had family members teach under both men and there is no comparison. Mr. Ruhl was always for the student/parent when there was as question of who was at fault. Mr. Drake has surrounded himself with people who know education and the school is on the way back. Mr. Drake's job is not to educate the kids, his job is to ensure the the teachers and leaders have the tools to teach. How many CEO's look over the CPA's paperwork? I do not think any do, they have hired people who know what to look for and how to direct them in the way to go. Mr. Drake has had to spend a lot of money to improve the school because it has been neglected for so long. There are so many improvements that have taken place in the last 3 years since Gil Drake took over that they are too numerous to mention. We now have Devo's in the elementary where we did not in the past, the kids are learing spanish in the younger classes, the teachers actually want to come to class and teach. That should be enough. Yes you are correct that several teachers were wanting to leave, but that was last year. When Mr. Drake was asked to leave by Mr. Ruhl it was behind the boards knowledge. Once teachers found out that Mr Ruhl might come back over 200 calls were made to Davidson Acad. alone for application and 14 teachers were planning on leaving. Does that tell you how bad it was? Yes my facts are correct because I have family that was going to leave Goodpasture and friends at Davidson that can verify it.

I do want to keep putting down Mr. Ruhl, but the school was in bad shape. It will take several years for the school to get back to where it needs to be....educating kids and letting the teachers do the job they were hired to do.

The PTO is a wonderful tool and we need to get involved with it. We finally have a leader who will stand up for the teachers and not fold under the parents who want their way with money.

Pray for Mr. Drake and his family.

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Tom Brite
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Re: Goodpasture info

March 19 2007, 7:50 PM 

PPB, my only reason in posting on this thread was to try to eliminate some of the hysteria (inaccuracies) that were mentioned. (Please do not accuse me of calling you a liar again, I am not.) But I do beleive your posts were certainly inaccurate in spots and right on in others. It is those inacuracies that need to be corrected so that the emphasis of your post is not lost on those who recognize your errors.

For example, I asked you why you called Max an "ex-Baptist preacher." You corrected your statement to show that he emphasized that he learned about grace from listening to a Baptist minister, a far cry from him being an ex-Baptist preacher at the time he was hired at Oak Hills.

You next say that Max was "allowed to stay on because he was so charismatic. Really, where do you learn this? As one who was at Oak Hills from before Max was hired, and in somewhat of a leadership position, I can tell you that there was never a movement, argument, or issue raised over having him leave so that he might be "allowed to stay on." In fact, just the opposite was true. The fear was that he would accept one of the many job offers that came from several "mega-churches" in the US.

Next, you say that "he was planted at Oak Hills to do exactly what he has done." Really, where did you learn this? Who planted Max at Oak Hills? Which of the Elders at Oak Hills in 1987 were duped into accepting him as the minister? Was it Paul Slatton, other than my father, the most Godly man I have ever known? Was it Jim Stonestreet, a hard worker and student of the Bible? Was it Paul Bruner, a finer husband with a shining Christian wife you will never meet this side of heaven? Tell me, which one was it.

To my knowledge, Max has not really changed his position. It is still the one that you can find on the Oak Hills website. That is an in-depth study that gives a good basis for understanding baptism. Is it perfect? No, but it comes closer than most studies I have read.

Now, before you think that this is a defense of Max or the changes that have occurred at Oak Hills, it is not. It is a defense of TRUTH. Not truth in biblical terms, but truth of facts of what happened in San Antonio starting in 1987. I pray that things reverse at Oak Hills. I am working toward that goal. I talk with Elders, I talk with members, praying that something said will cause an attitude of reflection.

Oak Hills always has been a "progressive congregation." That is why I joined it in 1982. It was probably the only growing congregation in San Antonio until many members started leaving due to the size of the congregation and worship issues. There are many, many good people still at Oak Hills. I pray that the recent contribution for a new auditorium will cause some reflection among the Eldership, especially while this decision of a replacement minister is contemplated.

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Re: Goodpasture info

March 19 2007, 11:59 PM 

Max has had various things to say about baptism at various times: I have reviewed many of them. I knew a "founding" associate of Jubilee and it was clear that it was an "infiltrate and divert" effort. I warned my old Murfreesboro elders but they ahh-shawed it off as only elders can do. When Max came to Jubilee in 1997 they knew what he intended to do and it was not what I believe you would accept. The elders wrote their letter of repudiation which brought them some threats but only one family left.

My Hohenwald church got Maxed and Axed with the same problem. When they declared themselves "'a family of God, a purpose driven church" and errected Rubels four Asherah poles in the foyer I knew trouble was afoot. I mentioned the false teaching and got the same but more brutal rebuff. They did listen to Max' efforts in 1997 to wash the water out of baptism and the preacher cautiously told me after listening to the tape: 'Well, that's what he said." I have several times quoted Rubel's sermons word for word and a member has written to call me a liar. That is what happens when they give your rational (spiritual) brain an injection directly through emotions so that people BELIEVE that they reached a conclusion on their own: why doubt untruth in advertising? Nevertheless, the locals proceeded to hire a preacher to fit their Jubilee patternism of "music, a broader role for women and discontinued to preach on baptism."

I have looked at all of Max's explanation of passages such as Romans 6 and his quite-aggressive spitting at our views because the thief on the cross was the EXCEPTION which DISPROVED the rule. Of course, you know me, so I had to tell the world that the thief on the cross did not ask to be saved and Jesus gave him a different answer. Furthermore, as I remember it, the thief on the cross was crucified for his own sins. His views on most of the passages he has addressed are quite identical or even more radical than the Baptist view. Like his buddy, Rick, with his 12 year hidden agenda, I believe that the views of many of the "converts" reflect Max's views which are both wrong and prove that he writes fiction and does not rely on the "facts as recorded" and almost universally viewed.

He did tell people that if they just call God "Father" they are saved: I remarked that I might try that on Bill Gates who used to attend our board meetings and i COULD have.......

I believe that he has some unresolved issues with his "father" and those who have claimed visions and accepted the worship of others and got wealthy always seemed to have met a bad end. Agrippa built a Seeker Center with the people's money and the mega churches could just move right in. However, he didn't come out too well.

I am positive that you can find the footprints of Max and Rubel with Ricky and others leaving trails away from all of the church division in the last two decades. Being a nice guy I believe is a studied role as in the same way he defines his writing style as an exercise in psychological impact. If he did not have this charisma we would not know his name. I know about friendships but I have none which trumps the Word of God. His will not be a positive memorial for future generations.

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Re: Goodpasture info

March 24 2007, 6:08 PM 


AGain, you have white-washed Max. He was called an Ex-baptist" preacher by the area preachers because of how he taught BEFORE he even arrived at Oak Hills. You think missionaries are immune from review? Are you not aware how small a group the area preachers are and how aware they are of each other?

I know what I heard and I know what the rest of the Church said about Max. Obviously you did not listen or care. How is it that I know more of the true story than you do? Either you didn't really take notice of what was going on around you in the Church or you didn't care.

Your comments chill me to the bone. When I told some friends of mine (involved in past discussions about Max) what you said above, they were upset. Truth can be an enigma for some people and we shouldn't expect others to be as honest as we are. Why do I continue to expect truth, when people refuse to be honest with their own self?

I hope your studies of the Bible (with an open/accepting heart and a good Greek translation) will one day shed light of Truth on you so that you will see into the true Max. It will be an eye opener that will break your heart. It did mine. Wouldn't it be great if he used that charisma for Truth?

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Re: Goodpasture info

March 25 2007, 10:12 AM 

PPB, I have tried my best to present FACTS in my comments. You have presented conclusory statements without facts. That should chill you to the bone. I would be happy for you to present any facts which show that I am wrong.

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Ken Sublett
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March 26 2007, 11:53 AM 

PPB, I think you posted some differences between the Church of Christ and the Christian church?

Would you repeat that?

Freed Hardeman--as usual--in their 2006 lectureship invited a Christian church person to explain why God COMMANDED instrumental music. Faust debated Gillmore and Victor Knowles has as usual capitalized by posting Faust but not Gillmore and I cannot find a copy of the defense which I grasp from other forums was the "law of silence" and probably the gopher wood one. I have takeen a copy of Faust's "uncopyable" post and am reviewe it: the same old lies or a total ignorance of the Bible. Too bad for the president of a college.

There is plenty of history to prove that The Church of Christ was never part of the Disciples and the Christian church sected out of the Disciples a decade after churches of Christ refused to be counted with them. Nevertheless, they have made some progress at the 'unity' meetings using PRO-instrumental dups like Max and Rick. Their ploy is that we are erring brothers and they want us BACK or at least confess to causing division and AFFIRMING that the musicators were correct to deliberately sow discord.

That would help. thanks, Ken

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Tom Brite
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Re: Differences?

March 26 2007, 9:52 PM 

Ken, did you ever get a copy of the lecture that Max gave at Tulsa? I have been unable to get a copy.

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Re: Goodpasture info

April 2 2007, 9:48 AM 

I just cannot disagree more. The school may be getting a whitewash from external appearances and there may be some optimism about the potential for improvement in the quality of teaching but I think you confuse causation with coincidence.

Furthermore, at least one board member recently commented that he thought the "dust had settled" enough to bring Dr. Ruhl back on the board. When that happens, Drake will likely be "dust in the wind" after what he did to Dr. Ruhl's daughter when he got rid of her.

Goodpasture needs real change. It is suffering from the same inbreeding that causes genetic defects in mammals. It needs new and active leadership on the board and it needs a new administration that knows how to run a school.

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Goodpasture Parent
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Re: Goodpasture info

July 5 2007, 1:11 PM 

Some of you have an interest in Goodpasture School are aware of what has been transpiring there based upon this thread and other sources. I have been reading the discussions taking place on Goodpasture Confidential ( and I am just amazed at what parents and even some faculty are starting to open up with concerning the failure of the board of directors and the administration to properly steward the school forward. I still wonder to what extent this original question about change agents impacting Goodpasture is part of the problem which have existed long before Gil Drake became president but have accelerated under his lack of real leadership.

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Re: Goodpasture info

December 11 2007, 10:06 PM 

I pray for all of you!

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Gil Drake

January 6 2008, 7:26 PM 

Gilbert Drake was the best thing that ever happened to Goodpasture and we will miss him. Hopefully, they can find someone with his views and persona to replace him. My son went to Goodpasture for 13 years. Until Drake took over, the parents were never informed of what direction the school was going. It was Ruhl's way or no way.

As for the environment of the school, I believe it is causing a decline in enrollment. The campus security is not up to par. With the amount of tuition collected by the school, all areas of the campus should be patroled at all times. Madison and the area the school is located in has gone drastically downhill. Last year several vehicles were broken into during school hours and special events and gas was stolen from vehicles during school. Maybe they do need to move to a different location.

My prayers are with the Drake family during this difficult time and with the people looking for a new president.


Goodpasture Parent

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Rick Neynolds
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Gil Drake

January 13 2008, 8:28 PM 

Some of you guys that post on this website are shameful.. I never heard a bad word about Gilbert Drake and now Goodpasture has lost a great man and leader!

When are you guys going to wake up and realize that Christianity is not defined by whether or not ones church of choice has insturmental music, praise team, clapping.. ect??!!

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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: Gil Drake

February 22 2008, 9:02 AM 

Nick Reynolds wrote: "Christianity is not defined by whether or not ones [sic] church of choice has insturmental [sic] music, praise team, clapping.. ect [sic]."

No church should operate by implementing worldly practices aimed at pleasing men, not God. Since the history of the first-century Church includes neither instrumental (not "insturmental") music nor "praise teams," then churches today have no real biblical justification to have them, other than the erroneous "justification" to satisfy the lust for entertainment in an ungodly society.

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Jimmy Joe
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First Century Church

February 23 2008, 12:08 AM 

We always hear that we should use the church of the first century as an example and not stray from that example. I seriously doubt that the first century church used a leather bound printed copy of the King James Bible. To be safe should we not use scrolls and parchment? Also since the first century was before the third century when the cannon was determined, which gospels, letters and apocalyptic books should we really be reading?

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: First Century Church

February 23 2008, 2:23 AM 

Jimmy Joe,

How many different religious denominations were there during the KJV’s translation? And how many different influencing religious denominations were there during the initial conversion to the N.I.perVersion? I know you didn’t mention the NIV, but you clearly singled out the KJV.

Good questions, Jimmy Joe.

Here are thoughts to consider: How many centuries or millennia did the Old Testament period cover? Based on the printed pages we have available and with the realization that there are many more OT than NT books—and much thicker as well—how did the OT believers manage to use scrolls and scrolls of God’s written word? And the knowledge and understanding of the Scriptures varying between those who lived around 4000 B.C. and those who lived a millennium or two later?

There are numerous passages in the New Testament mentioning the word “scripture” or “scriptures” in reference to the Old Testament. I believe that in the second epistle of Paul to Timothy [“… from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures”—3:15], the writer was referring to the Old Testament scriptures. One key expression is that “thou hast KNOWN.” What would “having KNOWN” the scriptures suggest in contrast to “having READ”?

Let’s rely on the following passage (II Tim. 3:16)—“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness”

Let’s be thankful that the passage regarding the “inspiration of God” was written by Paul BEFORE its printing.

Let’s also be thankful that unlike in Paul’s epistle to Timothy, the papacy has no right to declare that the New Testament is for our learning, PLUS additional declarations, creeds and pronouncements coming from the throne of Rome.

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Former Graduate
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December 30 2008, 3:31 AM 

As a recent graduate from Goodpasture, I would like to chime in my two cents on the matter. You all are losing sight of the reason for the school. Why do we go to school? Oh yea, to learn. Was it happening at Goodpasture, no. Why? Because of all of this corruption behind the school. Dr. Ruhl was a horrible president, plain and simple. A monkey could have done his job 20 times better. Religion is another subject that has blown my mind. After seeing what went on concerning the whole Christian attitude at GP, I have lost my faith. I didn't want to be part of any religion that contained folks like the ones running that concentration camp. As for the whole music issue, you are absolutly messed up in the head. I'm pretty sure thats the last thing you should be arguing about when it comes to the school, and as a musician myself, i turned to music waaaaaaay more than religion as a scapegoat or a way of relaxing myself. Seeing some of the people that that school has produced its no wonder there was no music. At least the music didn't judge me, unlike everybody else at the school and Madison Church of Christ (they're both one in the same). Take a step back, put religion, athletics, politics out of the picture for a minute and let kids learn and prepare for the real life out there, because i sure as heck wasn't.

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Class of '79
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Re: ...

March 5 2009, 5:02 PM 

I second that!!!!

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Ken Sublett
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Eat, Drink and make merry

March 5 2009, 10:59 PM 

Yes, Jesus wants you to eat, drink and make merry: In fact the speakers, singers and instrument players in Revelation 18 are called sorcerers or Pharmakon which speaks of the Babylon Scapegoat!

DSS: Thy members of my Covenant have rebelled
and have murmured round about me;
They have gone as talebearers
before the children of mischief
concerning the mystery which Thou hast hidden in me...

All that hate me whisper together against me: against me do they devise my hurt. Ps.41:7
and my heart is troubled within me.

I am clothed in blackness
and my tongue cleaves to the roof of my mouth. (Vermes, 165f)

DSS: My strength has gone from my body

and my heart runs out like water;

my flesh is dissolved (melted) like wax
and the strength of my loins is turned to fear.

........We note: Fill them with cowardice; melt the boldness of their strength;
........ let them tremble in their destruction. 1 Macc. 4:32
DSS: My arm is torn from its socket

and I can lift my hand no more;
My foot is held by fetters
and my knees slide like water;
I can no longer walk.

DSS: I cannot step forward lightly,

For my legs and arms are bound by shackles
which cause me to stumble.

The tongue is gone back which Thou didst make

marvelously mighty within my mouth;
it can no longer give voice.

I have no word for my disciples

to revive the spirit of those who stumble
and to speak words of support to the weary.
My circumcised lips are dumb.

........My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation:
........I will pay my vows before them that fear him. Psalm 22:25

Qahal (h6951) kaw-hawl'; from 6950; assemblage (usually concr.): - assembly, company, congregation, multitude.
DSS: I will groan with the zither of lamentation

in all grief-stricken mourning and bitter complaint
until iniquity and wickedness are consumed
and the disease-bringing scourge is no more.

........An evil disease, say they, cleaveth fast unto him: and now that he lieth he shall rise up no more. Ps.41:8
DSS: Then will I play on the zither of deliverance

and harp of joy,
on the tabors of prayer and the pipe of praise
without end.
for the season of Jubilee.

All my life the engraved Precept shall be on my tongue

as the fruit of praise
and the portion of my lips.

I will sing with knowledge and all my music
shall be for the glory of God.(My) lyre (and) my harp shall soundfor His holy orderand
I will tune the pipe of my lips to His right measure.

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Re: Eat, Drink and make merry

March 7 2009, 11:19 AM 

Matthew 18:15-20

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

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Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

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5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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