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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: Ephesians in Context

May 13 2007, 12:14 PM 

Many seem to deny that Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16 have anything to do with "worship," so they try to get around those verses and implement instrumental music into worship.

We should realize that any time we sing praises about God and we deliberately direct those praises to God, we worship Him.

This reminds me of an incident many years ago when I was a student at David Lipscomb (then) College. I was enrolled in a Bible course called "Worship", taught by Bro. Leo Snow. Naturally, part of the course dealt with music in worship, which taught that the New Testament does not authorize instruments in Christian worship. One of the students asked Bro. Snow what he did when he was among friends at their homes and a crowd wanted to gather around the piano to sing hymns. Bro. Snow in his usual quiet, gentle manner told the student that he would just remain silent and not sing, because singing hymns at any time was worshiping God, and we must not worship God with instruments.

Of course, to Bro. Snow, singing hymns was synonymous with worshiping God, because the praises that he sang were directed to God. So he was correct not to sing with an instrument if he believed that singing hymns was synonymous with worshiping. It's also possible to sing hymns but not really be thinking of God as such. Such is not worship if it's not solely directed to God. God must be the focus of attention when we sing praises, not entertaining ourselves.

But in our assembly worship, when we come together to focus our attention as a group to sing praises to God, then we are not to use instruments to entertain ourselves, because they are not authorized in Christian worship.

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Dr. Bill Crump
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A Hymn That Truly Exhalts Christ, Not Self

May 10 2007, 10:30 PM 

Several messages back, in retaliation to my harsh criticism of theologically weak "praise songs" like "Strong Tower," one of the anonymous detractors erroneously claimed that I had no Christian hymn or song that I found as "acceptable." Of course, such a statement was pure fantasy and hyperbole.

There is a hymn that truly exhalts Christ with very minimal references to self. Perhaps modern Christian writers can take some lessons from the lyrics to "Fairest Lord Jesus":

Fairest Lord Jesus, ruler of all nature,
O thou of God and man the Son,
Thee will I cherish, Thee will I honor,
Thou, my soul's glory, joy, and crown.

Fair are the meadows, fairer still the woodlands,
Robed in the blooming garb of spring:
Jesus is fairer, Jesus is purer
Who makes the woeful heart to sing.

Fair is the sunshine, fairer still the moonlight,
And all the twinkling starry host:
Jesus shines brighter, Jesus shines purer
Than all the angels heaven can boast.

Beautiful Savior! Lord of all the nations!
Son of God and Son of Man!
Glory and honor, praise, adoration,
Now and forevermore be thine.

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(Login jal1192003)

Dr Crump is soooo Right!

May 13 2007, 9:12 PM 

Dont you guys get it????!!!

Christian music is an outward expression of love for Jesus... and as we all know in the rule book of "Church of Christ Theology" this is a direct violation of Law 1.2A, which states, "Thou shall not have any outward expression or public display of love for Jesus Christ. Furthermore, thou shall not have any outward joy pertaining to your Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and therefore others will have no clue as to whether or not you are a follower of Jesus or a follower of the world."

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Dr. Bill Crump
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Peaceful Worship

May 14 2007, 9:49 AM 

What is jal-many-numbers railing about? That utilizing music that conforms to New Testament standards does not present any "joy"? It seems like many people today are under the mistaken notion that they have to be jumping up and down, rocking, rolling, shaking, quaking, vibrating, jyrating, clapping, making motion and creating all kinds of raucous commotion and confusion as primitive tribes do when they whoop themselves up to raid another village; otherwise, they have no "faith" or "joy."

Know and learn this: "For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints" (1 Cor. 14:33 KJV). Since God is the author of peace, Christians should worship God by singing and making melody in the heart (Eph. 5:19; Col. 3:16), in a state of peace, and without instruments, for the New Testament does not authorize them.

Know and learn this: "And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus" (Phil. 4:7 KJV). Having the peace of God is completely opposite to confusion; having the peace of God brings joy untold.

Worshiping God is not based on raucous confusion, hyperbole, ear-splitting noise, and hedonistic behavior that gratifies the wanton shallowness of the senses. Following Christ in all that He has commanded us (Matt. 28:20) brings that inner peace that passes all understanding. And if we have that peace, then our behavior toward God as well as our worship of Him will be peaceful, orderly, and decent (1 Cor. 14:40).

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The Returner
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Ps 150...again

May 17 2007, 9:05 PM 

As much as you'd like to be able to deny that the Old Testament has anything relevant to relate to our lives today, I must disagree. You never addressed the fact that Paul told Timothy that all Scripture is God-breathed and is good for a whole lot of things. What Scripture might that have been? Why the Old Testament, of course. There was no cannonized New Testament for Timothy to follow at this point, and when Paul reffers to the Scripture he said that Timothy had been studying it since he was a child. There deffinitely wasn't a New Testament when he was a child, so I can only conclude that Paul validates usage of the Old Testament in teaching and all of the other things listed in 2 Tim 3:17.

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Donnie Cruz
(no login)

Psalm 150 … again and again

May 17 2007, 10:44 PM 

Psalm 150:

  1. Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.
  2. Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.
  3. Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.
  4. Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.
  5. Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.
  6. Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD.

Please identify which one(s) of these instruments or activities are either: (a) allowed, practiced or entertaining or (b) not allowed, not practiced, or not entertaining?

  • sound of the trumpet
  • psaltery
  • harp
  • timbrel
  • dance
  • stringed instruments
  • organs
  • loud cymbals
  • high sounding cymbals
  • everything {cat, dog, cow, goat, etc.) that hath breath

Let’s deal with other chapters in the book of Psalms—just because they’re in the book of Psalms—later on. Let’s deal with other commands and statutes and laws in the Old Testament—later on.


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Ken Sublett
(no login)

Sure! For making WAR and sowing discord!

May 18 2007, 11:37 AM 

In Numbers 10:7 God outlawed the instrumental and rejoicing sounds when the assembly was called: this was the qahal, synagogue or church in the wilderness. No Jew ever sang or played an instrument in the EKKLESIA or synagogue: no instrument was added until 1815. Even then, it was unlawful for a Jew to play an instrument on the REST day.

However, David was authorized ad KING to make WAR but not to DEFINE WORSHIP.

'If you go to war in your land against the enemy that oppresses you, then you shall blow an alarm with the trumpets; and you shall be remembered before the Lord your God, and you shall be saved from your enemies.' (Numbers 10:9)

David was king: not worship leader. He was selected to carry out the exile and death sentence imposed by God because of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai. All of the "music" was made by Levitical Warrior noise makers under the KING and COMMANDERS of the army.

Therefore, David did not and COULD NOT play "music" even when slaughtering innocent animals. And even the king would be booted out of the synagogue if he brought in the instruments ALL derived from making war, prostitutes or sodomites seeking customers.

Here is a good example and what you are DOING when you MAKE WAR on God's people: shame, shame, shame. Since YOU are not a levite YOU could never be a musician. If you went into the Holy Places with music they would RUN YOU THROUGH WITH A SPEAR.

2 Chron 20:19 And the Levites, of the children of the Kohathites, and of the children of the Korhites, stood up to praise the Lord God of Israel with a loud voice on high.

2 Chron 20:20 And they rose early in the morning, and went forth into the wilderness of Tekoa: and as they went forth, Jehoshaphat stood and said, Hear me, O Judah, and ye inhabitants of Jerusalem; Believe in the Lord your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper.

2 Chron 20:21 And when he had consulted with the people, he appointed singers unto the Lord, and that should praise the beauty of holiness, as they went out before the army, and to say, Praise the Lord; for his mercy endureth for ever.
    Rinnah (h7440) rin-naw'; from 7442; prop. a creaking (or shrill sound), i. e. shout (of joy or grief): - cry, gladness, joy, proclamation, rejoicing, shouting, sing (-ing), triumph.
And when they began to sing and to praise, the Lord set AMBUSHMENTS against the children of Ammon, Moab, and mount Seir, which were come against Judah; and they were smitten. 2 Chron 20: 22

When the LOUD "MUSIC" began the enemy FOUGHT ONE ANOTHER and even themselves. Music makes WAR.

2 Chron 20:23 For the children of Ammon and Moab stood up against the inhabitants of mount Seir, utterly to slay and destroy them: and when they had made an end of the inhabitants of Seir, every one helped to destroy another.

2 Chron 20:24 And when Judah came toward the watch tower in the wilderness, they looked unto the multitude, and, behold, they were dead bodies fallen to the earth, and none escaped.

2 Chron 20:25 And when Jehoshaphat and his people came to take away the spoil of them, they found among them in abundance both riches with the dead bodies, and precious jewels, which they stripped off for themselves, more than they could carry away: and they were three days in gathering of the spoil, it was so much.

2 Chron 20:26 And on the fourth day they assembled themselves in the valley of Berachah; for there they blessed the Lord: therefore the name of the same place was called, The valley of Berachah, unto this day.

2 Chron 20:27 Then they returned, every man of Judah and Jerusalem, and Jehoshaphat in the forefront of them, to go again to Jerusalem with joy; for the Lord had made them to rejoice over their enemies.

2 Chron 20:28 And they came to Jerusalem with psalteries and harps and trumpets unto the house of the Lord.

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The Returner
(no login)

Ok Donnie, shoot....

May 19 2007, 9:26 PM 

I've only got one more week before I'm gone for the entire summer so I would like to see what it is in the Psalms that you don't agree with, Donnie. I hope that's not too much pressure.

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)

Unfinished Business for Returner

May 20 2007, 9:40 AM 

So is Returner trying to tell us that where he's going for the "entire summer," there won't be any access to the Internet to "tune in" here to hash over Psalm 150?

Before Returner disappears, perhaps he would be kind enough to take care of some unfinished business and fulfill the request that Donnie earlier posed to him about Psalm 150:

"Please identify which one(s) of these instruments or activities are either: (a) allowed, practiced or entertaining or (b) not allowed, not practiced, or not entertaining?

sound of the trumpet
stringed instruments
loud cymbals
high sounding cymbals
everything {cat, dog, cow, goat, etc.) that hath breath"

With only a week left, I hope that doesn't put too much pressure on Returner.

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(no login)

Is “Contemporary Christian ‘Rock’ Music” Satanic?

May 21 2007, 9:50 PM 

No, “Contemporary Christian ‘Rock’ Music” is not Satanic.

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Donnie Cruz
(no login)

No? Why not?

May 22 2007, 12:56 AM 

Did you not want anyone to know your explanation? I was looking for it … didn’t find it.

Have you formulated your own screen tests? I can hardly contain my curiosity. Please tell me.

OK … let’s give you the benefit. I realize that the question in the initial post is a generalization. Would you list a few examples of not necessarily just “contemporary Christian music” … but real “contemporary Christian ROCK music: (a) that I might think is Satanic, but (b) that you are convinced is not satanic?

Maybe, just one “ROCK” musical piece will suffice. And would you like for us to censure it … or just critique it?

I’ll be waiting.

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(no login)

RE: No? Why not?

May 22 2007, 3:03 PM 

The question was "Is “Contemporary Christian ‘Rock’ Music” Satanic?". That's a simple yes or no question. When you ask a simple question you get a simple answer.

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

The "Rap" artist agrees with you, too.

May 22 2007, 9:03 PM 

... as well as the really "HOT ROCK" artist. Well, who else? Yes!!! The most irreverent musician of all: Satan.

Sorry, your simple "NO" has not convinced me.

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)

Answer Yes or No

May 23 2007, 10:22 AM 

Here's a simple question for "Anonymous." Answer with a simple "Yes or No" and nothing more:

Are you still beatng your spouse, still molesting your children, still torturing your pets, still abusing street drugs, and still viewing pornographic web sites on the Internet?

Now if Anonymous should find it conveniently impossible or even overwhelmingly embarrassing to answer that question with a simple "Yes or No," knowing what either answer would imply, then Anonymous will have learned that the question "Is “Contemporary Christian ‘Rock’ Music” Satanic?" also cannot be answered with a simple "Yes or No."

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The Returner
(no login)

Where I'll be

May 23 2007, 6:00 PM 

Donnie, I'm travelling for the summer for the college I attend. I'm going to 10 weeks of straight church camp and won't have a reliable connection to the internet. Does that work? Now I'd find all of those entertaining (except the cats and dogs) and practiced, but what do you mean by allowed? By who?

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(no login)

More "simple" questions.

May 28 2007, 8:28 PM 

Someone asked me:

Are you still beatng your spouse, still molesting your children, still torturing your pets, still abusing street drugs, and still viewing pornographic web sites on the Internet?

The answer to each question is no. Any more "simple" questions you'd like to ask?

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)

Re: More "simple" questions.

May 30 2007, 9:50 AM 

Anon., I asked you if you were still doing all those abominable things to your family and pets. Since you were foolish enough to answer "No," then the way the question is structured, it means that you have beaten your spouse, have tortured your pets, have molested your children, have abused street drugs, and have viewed pornography on the Internet. You've as much as confessed to having engaged in some pretty foul activity. The authorities should be called.

You could not answer those questions with a simple "Yes" or "No" without admitting that you either engage in abominable activity now or you engaged in it in the past. The question is designed to be a double trap. You fell for it by answering "No," which implies that you have a history of engaging in sordid and criminal activity. Shame on you!

Again, the whole point of this exercise was to prove that some questions cannot truthfully be answered with a simple "Yes" or "No" answer. Therefore, you cannot, with any degree of sense, give a simple "Yes" or "No" answer to the question of whether all CCM is satanic. Some of it could definitely be so, as we've proven. Your bias FOR any CCM, no matter how lacking some of it may be in promoting Christian principles, is quite evident, and it's not rational thinking.

Some CCM is not fit for Christian consumption, and I think you know that, but your prejudice and bias prevents you from truthfully admitting it.

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(no login)

"logical" thinking

September 20 2007, 4:49 PM 

Following "logic"...

(ANONYMOUS) “…Psalm 23 since it has 17 me, my or I's…”

(BILL CRUMP) “…"Lord," "his," "he," "thou," and "thy" occur 12…”

(BILL CRUMP) At least 9 other attributes of the Lord are mentioned in that Psalm: shepherd, leader, restorer, always protective, comforter, provider, One who anoints, goodness, mercy.” [THESE DO NOT COUNT SINCE THE “ATTRIBUTES” IN STRONG TOWER DO NOT COUNT]

PSALM 23 has 17 personal pronouns and only 12 references to God (if you count the personal pronouns “thou / thy” – which could also be references to ANYONE or ANY DIETY).

If the “attributes” in Strong Tower do not count, then following the same logic, neither do the ones in Psalm 23.

17>12 = Psalm 23 is self-centered

Psalm 23 has references to God AND unspecified deities which could be attributed to Satan, therefore Psalm 23 is both godly and satanic (I almost cringe writing that, but following your “logic”…. I certainly do not believe it, nor do I believe Strong Tower written by God confessing people, sung by God confessing people, and played on God confessing radio "could be" references to Satan. If only we could be preaching the Gospel rather than defending OUR faith!!!).

Amazing grace has many references to self, and what has been done for ME, but only ONE mention of God (and only in the possessive). Following Bill Crump’s previous post / comments, Amazing Grace would be an IMPROVEMENT over Strong Tower, but is STILL self-centered.
MANY references to personal pronouns > 1 reference to God

Bill Crump referred several times to references such as “doctrine of salvation by grace through faith and OBEDIENCE” [EMPHASIS MINE]. Amazing Grace says, “...first believed” but no reference to “believed and obeyed.” Thus, following your own logic….Amazing Grace is unscriptural and you should remove it from your song book.

Need I say more?????

MAN, Christians waste a lot of time arguing with one another over the "jots and tittles" (and self-righteous opinions)...I gotta' go...I'm getting back to the "weightier matters."

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(no login)

yes and no

September 20 2007, 4:17 PM 

All those "still...." questions represent logical fallacies. They can't be answered by "yes or no" correctly because the question is flawed. Perhaps the first question should read Is Christian rock music Satanic, and if so WHY?

Another fallacy....because one song "Strong Tower" is viewed in the mind of the moderator as Satanic because it doesn't specifically mention a name for God approved of by the moderator, AND because it has more personal pronouns than references to "some unspecified diety", then ALL Christian rock music is Satanic. What does the one song "Strong Tower" have to do with the ENTIRE collection of Christian rock music? How does this ONE SONG speak for ALL others (or Dr. Bill's VIEW of this one song I should say)?

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(no login)

Re: Is “Contemporary Christian ‘Rock’ Music” Satanic?

May 23 2007, 4:43 PM 

I'm not sure why I'm asking this of what seems a pool of Piranha (and yes it's a play on words for those bright enough to figure it out) and I'm sure there will be a knee-jerk assumption of sarcasm in my question, but I'm going to ask anyway. (and no I'm not being sarcastic when I ask...)
From what I've read in this forum, my understanding is the issue is not "Christian music", but praise songs to God (or at least during worship) using instruments. If I was to write and/or sing a song of encouragement to a fellow Christian outside worship service, since it's not praise to God, would it be OK to use instruments? Would it not still be called Christian music?

In worship service (corporate worship) should we sing only in unison? Four part harmony (which can be more melodious) can be distracting and may cause individuals to hear the music and not the words.

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

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