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Ken Sublett
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Turn your TRICKS on Route 666

May 23 2007, 5:04 PM 

Then along comes the Camp Meeting:
"The great 'Kentucky revival', or 'Revival of the West' (1797-1805), which began amongst the Presbyterians and then spread to the Baptists, Methodists, and others, was the origin of the camp meeting. The musical influence of the camp meeting movement has yet to be investigated; probably it will be found that in addition

to popularizing a debased type of 'Gospel Hymn'
it had a further bad effect upon musical life by discouraging the practice of secular music.
J. Truslow Adams, in The Epic of America (1931), takes the Camp Meeting seriously as a national influence - 'The camp meeting is a key to much that we shall find even in present-day life, in a nation even yet emotionally starving'.

But the opposition of piety to art originated earlier than the camp meeting movement. The precise moment when it began to darken American life must be left to some American inquirer." [Scholes, 359, citing Sir Richard Terry (author of "The Music of the Roman Rite" speaking at The Musical Association (London), printed in "Proceedings," 1929-30, p. 85).]

Britannica Online Members: Gospel music is a form of black American music derived from church worship services and from spiritual (q.v.) and blues singing. Gospel music spread through song publishing, concerts, recordings, and radio and television broadcasts of religious services from the Great Depression days of the 1930s.

The immediate impetus for gospel music seems to have been the rise of Pentecostal churches at the end of the 19th century. Pentecostal shouting is related to speaking in tongues and to circle dances of African origin. Recordings of Pentecostal preachers' sermons were immensely popular among American blacks in the 1920s, and recordings of them along with their choral and instrumental accompaniment and congregational participation persisted, so that ultimately gospel reached the white audience as well. The voice of the black gospel preacher was affected by black secular performers, and vice versa. Taking the scriptural direction "Let everything that breathes praise the Lord" (Psalms, 150), Pentecostal churches welcomed timbrels, pianos, organs, banjos, guitars, other stringed instruments, and some brass into their services. Choirs often featured the extremes of female vocal range in antiphonal counterpoint with the preacher's sermon. Improvised recitative passages, melismatic singing, and extravagant expressivity also characterize gospel music.

Other forms of gospel music have included the singing and acoustic guitar playing of itinerant street preachers; individual secular performers, sometimes accompanied by bands; and harmonizing male quartets, usually singing a cappella, whose acts included dance routines and stylized costumes.

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(Login gst1980)

Inarticulate Babble

May 25 2007, 4:36 PM 

Contemporary Christian music really FUELED Great “bashings” such as led by the Kenites and the Billites of Concerned Members in 2007. Their inane rhetoric and silly argumentative tongue-lashings are rarely noted by THOSE in their camp who GENERATED that movement. However, other observers fill in the blanks. The bashers were smarter than the masters of music and droned on and on about the lack of Creatorly descriptions. Modern musicologists see most of the bashers absurd spewings as birthed by Voodoo. The Kenites and Billites added the Ridiculous Ramblings as an ACT OF BASHING and that fits the Angry or Bitter background of the Lyric Beaters or Word Whippers......

When the dancers of the HARLOT came forth from the fiery frenzy they unleashed the CRICKETS and BEETLES, self-pleasers and FEAR AGGRIVATERS who despise musicology done in DECENCY and in ORDER.

If I spent enough hours in practice, I believe that I, too, might be able to write as well as Ken.

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Ken Sublett
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Oh Stevey, Stevey, Stevey:: tell us that you are a Sangy Thangy!

May 25 2007, 8:22 PM 

Walll-uh, Ken didn't write a single word in the above post:
Just good historical data recorded for REEDERS and RITERS
but, not for the Sound-Byte, Snake-bite generation.

Maybe if you beat your drum or whatever and cut the throat of
a chicken and drink it's blood and repeat a teeny-weeny praise song
a hundred times, you will make a spirit come cause "without music
the spirits don't come."

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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: Inarticulate Babble

May 26 2007, 10:38 AM 

It's almost inevitable that those who point fingers and brand others as "bashers" will go on to bash the alleged bashers. So we thank Steve for showing us how to bash alleged bashers. We've stated why some, but not all, forms of contemporary "Christian" music (CCM) are flawed and inappropriate for worship. For example:

  • CCM lyrics that avoid any explicit references to God, Jehovah, Jesus, Christ, Holy Spirit, Savior--you get the picture.

  • CCM lyrics that vaguely hint at Christianity without really hitting the nail on the head.

  • CCM lyrics that only stress "feeling good" and having a good time instead of presenting definitively edifying Christian messages or principles.

  • CCM lyrics that focus almost entirely on self.

  • CCM music that directly parallels those styles found in worldly performing arts centers, night clubs, Broadway stages, theaters, discotheques, and brothels; hence, the music of sex, sleaze, and sensory gratification. You know the types: pop-rock, jazz, rap, hip-hop, etc. If the Church is not to emulate the world, then neither should music that praises God (Romans 12:2; James 4:4; 1 John 2:15-17).

CCM is modern, more likely to sell, and more likely to please the crowds at church. Do those traits automatically make all CCM "holy" and acceptable to God?

So instead of being reactionary, perhaps Steve would care to enlighten us why he apparently seems to endorse all forms of CCM. At least that's the impression he leaves, when he posts a generic "bash" of those who justifiably criticize certain forms of CCM.

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The Returner
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May 27 2007, 12:08 PM 

Stop avoiding my question, I'm running out of time to respond.

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Donnie Cruz
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The Holy Scripture states:

May 28 2007, 3:10 PM 


You asked, “I would like to see what it is in the Psalms that you don't agree with….”

Well, I’m not sure if you meant the entire book of Psalms or Psalm 150. But either way, that is similar to asking me if I agree with the following in II Kings 11:

    [9] And the captains over the hundreds did according to all things that Jehoiada the priest commanded: and they took every man his men that were to come in on the sabbath, with them that should go out on the sabbath, and came to Jehoiada the priest.
    [10] And to the captains over hundreds did the priest give king David's spears and shields, that were in the temple of the LORD.
    [11] And the guard stood, every man with his weapons in his hand, round about the king, from the right corner of the temple to the left corner of the temple, along by the altar and the temple.
    [12] And he brought forth the king's son, and put the crown upon him, and gave him the testimony; and they made him king, and anointed him; and they clapped their hands, and said, God save the king.
    [13] And when Athaliah heard the noise of the guard and of the people, she came to the people into the temple of the LORD.
    [14] And when she looked, behold, the king stood by a pillar, as the manner was, and the princes and the trumpeters by the king, and all the people of the land rejoiced, and blew with trumpets: and Athaliah rent her clothes, and cried, Treason, Treason

… or in Numbers 10:

    [1] And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
    [2] Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps.
    [3] And when they shall blow with them, all the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
    [4] And if they blow but with one trumpet, then the princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee.
    [5] When ye blow an alarm, then the camps that lie on the east parts shall go forward.
    [6] When ye blow an alarm the second time, then the camps that lie on the south side shall take their journey: they shall blow an alarm for their journeys.
    [7] But when the congregation is to be gathered together, ye shall blow, but ye shall not sound an alarm.
    [8] And the sons of Aaron, the priests, shall blow with the trumpets; and they shall be to you for an ordinance for ever throughout your generations.
    [9] And if ye go to war in your land against the enemy [Ken Sublett, you are correct, d.c.] that oppresseth you, then ye shall blow an alarm with the trumpets; and ye shall be remembered before the LORD your God, and ye shall be saved from your enemies.
    [10] Also in the day of your gladness, and in your solemn days, and in the beginnings of your months, ye shall blow with the trumpets over your burnt offerings, and over the sacrifices of your peace offerings; that they may be to you for a memorial before your God: I am the LORD your God.

… or in Luke 15:25 concerning what the prodigal son’s elder brother heard: “Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard music and dancing”—the only instance where “music” is mentioned in the New Testament.

… and the numerous references to burnt offerings in the Old Testament, such as in Exodus 29:

    [18] And thou shalt burn the whole ram upon the altar: it is a burnt offering unto the LORD: it is a sweet savour, an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
    [25] And thou shalt receive them of their hands, and burn them upon the altar for a burnt offering, for a sweet savour before the LORD: it is an offering made by fire unto the LORD.

So, I’m proving to you that there is nothing in the Holy Scripture that I disagree with. All I know is that when one rightly divides the word of truth, the Bible is comprised of truths that pertain to God’s power in creation or His judgments, to the history of mankind and His people in particular, to the lies of man as recorded for us to know, to the history of the New Testament church, etc.


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Ken Sublett
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ANOTHER blow landed!

May 28 2007, 5:41 PM 

Donnie, you lit up another light:
In defining The Book of the Covenant sacrifices of animals was highly circumscribed and a special purpose.
In Exodus 29 the burning phase of the sacrifice has neither singing nor instruments.

After after receiving the 'living" Covenant which regulated voluntary sacrifices, Moses
Went back up to get the "enabling legislation" of 70 laws for the 10 commandements.

While doing so in Exodus 32 the people ROSE UP TO PLAY which was musical idolatry.
The Tablets were broken and restated for a people going into Canaan and bondage.
God gave The Book of the Law for the lawless.

The people were totally exiled from the Tabernacle and the Levites performed the service or hard bondage for the priests.

It was only when the 'probation period' failed and Israel's elders demanded a king that according to Stephen God "turned them over to worship the starry host." No doubt exists but this was the worship of the Astrial deities practiced in Egypt and at Mount Sinai.

After David's death the Levitical musicians served THE PRIESTS in the burning rituals for special sacrifices and generally provided "music" for the king and kingdom. The "civilians" were sent OUTSIDE THE GATE (where Jesus meets us) when the Levites made ONE GREAT SOUND wich is never called music.

God warned that the Kings would enslave them and lead them into captivity and death. Therefore, we know that the Temple was more dedicated to pagan idolatry between those LONG PERIODS up to almost 300 years before the PLAGUE STOPPING animal sacrifice of David WITHOUT MUSIC and that of Hezekiah repeating the same ritual which was EXORCISM.

This is the pagan lostness that Rick Atchley etal USE to claim that God "commanded instrumental praise" and "we should not be disobedient."

I believe that the musical sounds they HEAR is in judgment just like Athaliah who had murdered all of her heirs but one whom she could not get her hands on.

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The Returner
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I'm Sorry

May 29 2007, 12:12 AM 

I am truly appologizing here, I've been addressing the wrong person for the past 2 posts of mine. I didn't mean to pressure you Donnie, I was supposed to be directing the question toward Billy. I responded to something he wrote and then I put your name at the beginning. So, once again, I'm sorry for that Donnie. And Billy could you answer my question that I addressed to Donnie but was really supposed to be you? It was 2 Posts of mine back from this one where it started.

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(no login)

RE: Contemporary Christian Rock Music Issue - Please Read?

September 1 2008, 8:06 AM 


I am a Christian with the Church of Christ. I do not go to Madison; I am actually a part of another congregation in a different state.

About the rock music issue:
I am going to be honest. I did not grow up in the Church. Actually, I was brought up in a secular and dysfunctional home. I ended up doing bad things and got stuck deep in sin. I hung out with people who were stuck deep in sin. When I was at the bar, crashing emotionally after doing drugs, or bitter for stuff that seemed unfair in my life, it never crossed my mind to enter a music store and look for a squeaky clean / straight edge sounding music cd about God to listen to so that it would comfort me in my pain and help get me through my problems. To my memory, it never crossed my mind. At that time in my life, I listened to rock music because that is what I liked. "Gospel sounding" music was not something I was interested in, or liked. My crowd was other druggies and people who I went to clubs and bars with, who I would take a good guess have a similar mindset in regard to music. I feel personally, that if music that has lyrics which puts God on people's minds and hearts, with a music style that they would listen to – reaching people where they are at (whether it is rock, or another style) that the goal of reaching people for Christ is being achieved. I think about how Christ died for these people too, and has given us the message to preach the Gospel to all people, including them as well. From what I understand in the Scriptures, Jesus is all about spreading His Gospel to people that they may enter a relationship with Him. In my opinion, I think it is a wise move to use such a huge influencer as music to help put God on people’s minds. They have the ability to listen to the music style they like with lyrics that point them to God, rather than listen to music with lyrics that will point them to live in sin.

I see no Scripture in the Bible condemning the style of rock music as being satanic; and coming from the world, I can’t speak for all, but I believe that most people today see “rock” music as just a style of music, and not satanic unless it has lyrics that deal with satanic or very perverse things. Personally, I believe that if I asked the average person who listens to music, if they think Contemporary Christian Rock music is satanic, I would get a confused look and possibly the question “isn’t that a contradiction?”

For me, the Scriptures in Galatians come to mind about how we have freedom in Christ. Also another passage comes up as well, the one about the Pharisees how they nullify the word of God by teaching as doctrine the commandments of men. (Mark 7:1-13) I think as a Bible believing Christians, at least from my own understanding that we are not to set up doctrines in addition to the ones God teaches, and then try and bind them on people. I believe if listening to rock music was that big of an issue to God, He would have something in the Bible written that specifically warns against and forbids the practice. Obviously contemporary "rock" music did not exist then, but I see places in the Bible where God warns us about other things to come that we should avoid. I think Jesus would want us to know about such an influence if it was so satanic. The Scripture about how the Pharisees often strained out the gnats but swallowed camels comes to my mind, (Matthew 23:23-24). My guess is that Jesus would rather us get the message out there through as many effective ways as possible rather than having us huddling together to nitpick over a Romans 14 issue and missing the forest for the trees (or the people for the debatable issue).

I find that I complicate my relationship with God and my walk in Christ when I take rules in addition to the word of God and hold them as doctrine in my heart or mind; (and then trying to get other people to see and accept my point of view as theirs too makes things harder). However, it seems much more simple, accurate, liberating and God pleasing to go to the Scriptures, let God speak for Himself and then form convictions based on His Word. It is my prayer that we can all strive for and attain to this, so that the love and knowledge of God can impact us deeper and reach more people for His perfect purpose.

God bless you.

Your sister in Christ,

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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: RE: Contemporary Christian Rock Music Issue - Please Read?

September 2 2008, 9:09 AM 

Many in the Change Movement today believe that all music is amoral, meaning that it carries no moral implications, good or bad. That is also the philosophy of Rick Warren's Purpose-Driven paradigm, which says that there is no "Christian" music, only "Christian" lyrics. Given that attitude, many see nothing wrong with bringing secular pop/rock music into the Church. I believe that is a very grave mistake.

Pop/rock music has a very long history of being associated with drug abuse, illicit sex, and rebellion against rightful authority. If you read the history of rock-and-roll music, you will discover that it was actually created to simulate the rocking and rolling actions of teens having illicit sex in the back seats of cars. Music with that kind of association and history is absolutely unfit for the Church.

Some people argue that the New Testament doesn't specifically condemn the use of pop/rock music in the Church. The New Testament doesn't specifically condemn the use of cocaine or many other things in worship that would be unsuitable, yet faithful Christians wouldn't think of using cocaine in worship. Therefore, we must be guided by the general principles of the New Testament, which definitely warns against being conformed to the ways of the world:

"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God" (Romans 12:2 KJV).

"Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God" (James 4:4 KJV).

Secular pop/rock music is the music of the carnal, the sensual. It is the music of the world. We are to bring neither the ways of the world nor its music into the Church.

It is also a serious mistake to think that music is amoral. Music in and of itself sends just as loud a "message," for good or for evil, as lyrics do. That fact is discussed in detail in three short books that I recommend all people read, especially those people who are "sold" on having contemporary secular pop/rock music in the Church:

Lucarini, Dan. Why I Left the Contemporary Christian Music Movement: Confessions of a Former Worship Leader. Evangelical Press, 2002.

Smith, Kimberly. Let Those Who Have Ears to Hear: If They Took the Music Away...Would You Still Follow Jesus? Winepress Publishing, 2001.

Smith, Kimberly. Oh, Be Careful Little Ears: Contemporary Christian Music...Is That in the Bible? Winepress Publishing, 1997.

My reviews of these three books appear on

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(no login)

Re: RE: Contemporary Christian Rock Music Issue - Please Read?

October 29 2008, 3:55 PM 

THIS thread makes certain one thing......this site will never be a beacon for God.
I don't know it's actual intended purpose, but with the immature adolescent replies and bickering of the regulars here at we outsiders can only summarize that it is totally lacking in love....a commandment of our Lord.

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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: RE: Contemporary Christian Rock Music Issue - Please Read?

November 3 2008, 8:35 AM 

It is most ironic that someone would believe that urging people to follow the New Testament and not bring worldly entertainment (e.g., pop/rock music) into the Church is "totally lacking in love."

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(no login)

Praise Jesus

November 9 2008, 9:21 PM 

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
I agree with Speak. This thread is sadly lacking in love and on both sides of the argument. I will throw in my two cents worth on this issue as an occasional worship leader who enjoys all types of music that bring praise to Jesus. I have seen people begin a relationship with Jesus after listening to contemporary Christian worship songs and after listening to old God praising hymns. God uses all these forms of music to expand His kingdom and share His love with individual people. Instead of aimlessly bickering about these musical forms, let's just acknowledge that the love of Jesus transcends musical forms and that He can and will use all these to bring people to Him. I'm thankful that the God we serve is bigger than our little quarrels. I love you all...

In His Love.

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

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At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

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5 Godly Elders
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120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
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