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"Maybe we need to do a study on this"

September 1 2007, 7:08 AM 

A church should not be in the business of encouraging members to quit their paying jobs.

It doesn't take much studying to realize that the New Testament encourages members to quit their paying jobs to follow their Lord sometimes, youth soccer not withstanding.

As Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon called Peter and his brother Andrew. They were casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen. "Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men." At once they left their nets and followed him. Going on from there, he saw two other brothers, James son of Zebedee and his brother John. They were in a boat with their father Zebedee, preparing their nets. Jesus called them, and immediately they left the boat and their father and followed him. Matt. 4:18-22

He told them, "The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field. ... Stay in that house, eating and drinking whatever they give you, for the worker deserves his wages. Luke 10:2-7

There are other references...but I think these two make the point.

I know of a man who was a very successful business man who quit his well paying job to work full time for a church in an involvement minister role. He and his wife had to make a lot of sacrifices, since his pay cut was more than 50%. If anything he works harder now than in his business life, because he is working for the Lord, not for the money.

I think there is a misconception here that most ministers sit around drinking coffee getting rich off of the money intended for widows and orphans. There may be one or two who fit that description, but most are like my grandfather and father-in-law who work hard their entire lives spreading the gospel full-time. Sometimes having to take a second job to make ends meet, and never getting to retire because the pittiance most churches pay their ministers doesn't leave any money for retirement.

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Jimmy Wren
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Work and serve.

September 1 2007, 9:32 PM 

I don't find where Jesus nor the Church ever called anyone to give up a paying job to become a paid follower of Jesus.

It is true that Jesus called the 12 and put them to be apostles in His church. However there is no record nor mention of a 'salary.'

I have heard your story several times about the great sacrifice someone makes to accept a low paying job for a church. My response is that if they really wish to make a sacrifice why take a salary at all? Why not balance their church work with their paying job? What church really demands that much out of a minister anyway?

I have not seen a ministry in the church yet that requires 40 hours each week. Have you? If so will you name one and give the specific location.

I have known of one preacher who said that he was so busy doing church work at the congregation he preached for that he had no time to spare. Yet when a preaching school opened and offered him a salary to teach in the school he found the time. He continued with his ministry, at the same rate of pay, and the school job with new income from it.

In Christ,

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harry smith
(Login wordkeeper)

Re: Work and serve.

September 3 2007, 11:47 PM 

Well Brother Wren by the same logic you have in not employing an involvement minister and paying that person a salary; then, why pay a pulpit minister a salary ?? Why should anyone used in the church get any money for their work ?? If you say 'well its alright if its the pulpit minister but not alright for the involvement minister' then, aren't you discriminating between different types of ministry? It seems as though the real argument is that having several associate ministers on staff (for whatever their duties entail) is a recent phenomenon that as occurred because churches have grown to mega church status. Maybe your real argument is the existence of mega churches.

I do have to agree with the previous poster who cites the example of associate ministers usually take a cut in pay compared to their secular work. I don't think these people are thinking in terms of getting rich but rather how can I help the church grow and be strong in the Lord.

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Jimmy Wren
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Only one

September 4 2007, 12:12 AM 

I find song leading, class teaching, turning up the thermostat, going to pick up the mail, printing off a bulletin, and etc., to be labor to be shared amoung the Christians.

I find deacons, elders to be servants, unpaid, who do the work that God called them to do.

Harry are you for bringing back the priesthood? Do you think congregations should created a class of people dependant on the church for their lively hood? They tried that in the Old Testament you know?

In Christ,

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Jimmy Wren
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September 4 2007, 4:38 PM 

'Why, we hear of churches where four people are hired to do the praise of God, and all the people sit still and listen to them. And that is according to the New Testament, is it? It must be a very “revised version,” surely. I find nothing of that sort in the book I have been accustomed to use.' Charles H. Spurgeon, Singing in the Ways of the Lord no. 1615

In Christ,

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John N
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September 4 2007, 9:36 PM 

Is anyone going to reply to Chris's questions?

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Dr. Max Moon
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Re: questions

September 5 2007, 7:22 AM 


There is no scriptural entitlement for a preaching minister, and some may be busy doing 40 or more hours a week because they are hirelings and do the work of the elders, who are behaving no differently that Baptist deacons.

Also, some misuse the term "evangelist." An evangelist spreads the gospel to the unsaved. An evangelist IS NOT a paid located unscriptural preaching minister HIRELING.

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(no login)

Re: questions

September 5 2007, 3:33 PM 

Rubel Shelly claims that he is a Located Missionary!


Terry Rush promotes instruments in the interest of EVANGELISM.

So, we have all slurped down Jonestown KoolAid and that smile on our face is not cute.

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Jimmy Wren
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Thanks Max

September 5 2007, 4:53 PM 

'What a degradation to supplant the intelligent song of the whole
congregation by the theatrical prettiness of a quartet, the refined niceties of
a choir, or the blowing off of wind from inanimate bellows and pipes! We
might as well pray by machinery as praise by it.'
Charles H. Spurgeon's Treasury of David, Psalms 42:4, p.464

In Christ,

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

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At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

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5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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