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A Question To All

September 19 2007 at 3:07 PM
Jimmy Wren  (no login)
from IP address

One of the functions of the newly (anti-Scriptural - meaning no Scriptural backing) Involvement Minister at Madison is to help members discover their talents and drives.*

I have two questions directed to each reader who regularly attends a congregation. The questions are: 1.) “Did it take someone at your congregation to help you discover your talents and drives?” 2.) “Should the other members of the congregation be financially charged with the personal help that you received from the person (Involvement Minister) who helped you?”

In Christ,

* p. 1, Madison Marcher, Vol. 56, No. 6, June 2007

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(no login)

re: Involvement minister

September 21 2007, 1:42 PM 

1.) “Did it take someone at your congregation to help you discover your talents and drives?”

Response question:

2.) “Should the other members of the congregation be financially charged with the personal help that you received from the person (Involvement Minister) who helped you?”


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Jimmy Wren
(no login)

You wrote:

September 22 2007, 2:46 AM 

In answer to the first question, you wrote: GOD WORKS THROUGH THEM AND MANY OTHERS.

If God works through them, why must they quit a paying job and hobo the church? Can't God work through the working man and woman?

To question number two you changed the subject from an Involvement Minister to the preacher. I am not in any way discussing support of a person who sows the seed, i.e., teaches the Bible. I am discussing a person who quits his paying job to direct people to the rest rooms or class rooms and makes the church think that he should be paid for his services.


Again I ask should a person be paid to visit people in the hospital? I certainly do not want a PAID visitor coming into my room in the name of Jesus.

If one follows the teaching's of the Bible, he would call for the elders when sick or in need of prayer.

In Christ,

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Ken Sublett
(no login)

OUTLAWED by "Set a king over us."

September 22 2007, 11:02 AM 

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Jesus promised His "ekklesia" which has the same meaning as the synagogue. Its purpose in the wilderness was to REST, read and rehearse the Word of God. The word WORK outlaws "sending out ministers" and "speaking your own words" (Isa 58). There assuredly were no collection plates passed to FUND someone to soak up their surplus money and time. Nor is there a "law of giving" in the church to fund such a "master" even if common sense did not condemn it. The church has no right to "involve" people in anything other than being a Bible School. People are equipped for that ministry by the elders who are the only Pastor-teachers God permits. They were honored but not waged. Any such effort to be Chanellers is the mark of a cult. Most people have a healthy contempt for such people who rarely have the skills for which they are DOLED.

If the elders TAUGHT "that which had been taught" and the congregation teaches one another "singing" that which is written, the equipping task would go from bottom up and not top down.

Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles [speak]; and some, prophets [speak]; and some, evangelists [speak]; and some, pastors and teachers; [speak]

The Spirit OF Christ spoke through the prophets: this was almost always to repudiate kings and priests and all of the "religion" which had been imposed because of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai. The last straw was when the ELDERS fired God and hired a "dominant pastor" to rule over them. God warned that the king would collect all of his bonded buddies to suck up all of the money and time and enslave the people. When elders are incompetent and have to hire a PASTOR to do their work while they get the "power" the PREDESTIANTED outcome is that the pastor will try to fire the vocational deacons and HIRE his own friends--love those women--to ride tandem on the backs of widows and HONEST working people who NEED no help in planning their time.

Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying [speak to EDUCATION] of the body of Christ:

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the UNITY of THE FAITH, and of the KNOWLEDGE of the Son of God, unto a PERFECT man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Paul had to KNOW a crucified Christ and not even ACCEPT FOOD from Corinth to MARK the false teachers Peter calls CORRUPTERS of the Word meaning "selling learning at retail". However, to the PERFECTED Paul fed them with the MEAT OF THE WORD.
This OUTLAWS the chance for "cunning craftsmen" to get their fangs into the body.

Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be nomore children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

This outlaws: panourg-êma , atos, to, A. knavish trick, villainy, sophistry,

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Jimmy Wren
(no login)

Be Ware!

September 22 2007, 5:44 PM 

What disturbes me about the situation is that a guy, who had a good paying job, is encouraged to give up working for a living and come let the church GIVE him his living!

Did Madison advertise and give other people the opportunity to apply for this PAYING JOB? Did the elders at Madison announce to the congregation that they were looking for someone to fill this PAYING position?

It looks to me as if Literal Seed would have been more qualified for the position then Tom Haddon. It would also seem that one of the kind old ladies in the congregation would have been more adept to this PAYING position then Tom. After all it is just a 'patting folks on the back' job and has no foundation what-so-ever in the Scriptures.

In Christ,

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harry smith
(Login wordkeeper)

Re: Be Ware!

September 23 2007, 11:33 PM 

I want to be clear on this subject. According to the denominational teachings of the churches of Chtist each congregation is independent and autonomous free from the dictates from other entities. Each congregation is free to observe biblical teachings without interference from outside parties. It is a relationship between the congregation and God Almighty himself. So Brother Wren, unless you are a member of the Madison church where do you get off telling them how to spend their money and what responsibilites each minister should have ?! If the Madison church wants a minister of Involvement, children's ministry, or singles ministry that is up to them and it is none of your business how they want to employ their ministers. If you are a member, then who elected you Pope ?? There is an avenue to discuss your points of view within the congregation and that is discussed in the Bible. If they listen to you and the Elders decide that it is still good to have a Minister of Involvement, THEN OBEY THE BIBLE AND BE SUBJECTED TO THEIR AUTHORITY. If you cannot do this leave and go to a congregation that does not have a Minister of Involvement.
As far as soliciting a member from a secular job to become a minister I say Bravo. They are following the lead of Christ when he called fishermen, tax collectors and the such to become his ministers of the Gospel meassage.
I know first hand of a nationally known motivational speaker who charged over $1,000 a day to hold workshops and seminars for various corporations. The local congregation was in dire need of leadership and a pulpit minister so he gave up the worlds goods and took that position for quite a lower pay.
I say the following with all sincerity: get off this issue and let the congregation at Madison fulfill its God given duty to represent Christ on Earth.

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Jimmy Wren
(no login)

If denomination...

September 24 2007, 11:23 AM 

harry smith writes: According to the denominational teachings of the churches of Chtist...

Jimmy replies: If the Church of Christ is a denomination it must have an earthly headquarters and each part, i.e., individual congregations, of the denomination must follow the creed and other laws defined by the earthly headquarters. However if each individual congregation refuses to recognize an earthly headquarters with laws and creeds as rule over them, but submits to the Bible only as their rule, then the churches of Christ cannot be a denomination.

Deal with this harry smith and then we will continue the discussion of the organization of the independant Church of Christ. I will write that each independant church must be organized as other independant churches of Christ. Ministers and ministries that are unknown by the Spirit in the word of God cannot be of God but are the making of man.

What a shame when men start looking to the church for their support! If a man (Tom Haddon) refuses to work, don't let him eat!

In Christ,

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(Login wordkeeper)

Re: If denomination...

September 24 2007, 7:08 PM 

Chief Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes once said in his court concerning a tax case where the defendant tried to avoid taxes by defining itself as a non-profit organization, "If it quacks like a duck, waddles like a duck, then, this court is going to call it a duck no matter what you call yourself." I take the same view of the churches of Christ as they call themselves non denominational yet they have distict lines of fellowship where if certain doctrinal rules are not followed then that group is not part of the fellowship. Once the churches of Christ holds other christian groups to a doctrinal standard of non- instrumentalism they have forfieted the right to call themselves nondenomination and have become like any other group that imposes rules to determine fellowship. The actions and behvior of the churches of Christ have made the organization a denomination no matter what you call yourselves.

It appears you have highlighted this issue to draw attention from the original post. My contention is that complaining about how a congregation spends their money and who they appoint as ministers sounds like sour grapes on your part. Maybe because you are not in the ministry ?? If you are a member of Madison then complain to the elders. If you are not a member of Madison then its none of your business who they select as part of their ministry team.

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(no login)

re: to Jimmy

September 24 2007, 11:46 AM 

You asked: "If God works through them, why must they quit a paying job and hobo the church? Can't God work through the working man and woman?

Absolutely! He works through them ALL. Can He work ONLY through the "working man and woman?" Do we want to limit God like that? Besides, is the involvement minister not "working" unless he is a plumber or salesman or something? Is the preacher a "working man?"

Also, I don't believe they MUST "quit a paying job" and I don't think being paid as an involvement minister is "hobo-ing the church." No more than the pulpit minister would be. What I do believe is that it is ACCEPTABLE to hire various ministers to do various things. We hire plumbers to fix toilets. Is that acceptable, and "authorized"? Can we hire plumbers but not ministers of involvement? What authority do we use to to authorize one and forbid the other?

Do you believe it is unscriptural to hire any minister other than a pulpit minister who does anything else but preach and teach the word? Is he forbidden to answer the phone or do any other work while "on the clock" except what directly related to preaching the word?

I do agree that what we often expect of preachers is really what elders primarily, and members as a whole as well should be doing (visiting, etc.). But, does that mean it is FORBIDDEN to hire a minister to some task whether it be visiting, encouraging, youth ministry (which involves both teaching the word, administative stuff, "fun" trips or whatever), outreach minister, or involvement minister? If it is forbidden, who forbids it? I don't know any Bible passage or principle that does. Do you? I agree with Harry Smith that we must be careful not to sit in judgment and self-imposed authority in dictating what congregations can and can not do. Even in the congregation we attend. Are you a member at Madison? If so, have you brought any SCRIPTURAL objection to them about your belief? Have you considered going elsewhere where they do everything just as you would approve of it?

Additionally, you referred to "directing people to rest rooms and class rooms." While a church is free to hire someone to do this if they see the need, that is not the job description mentioned in the first post of this forum. It said something like helping members to discover their talents.... Usually, an involvement minister's job is primarily that. They help members fulfill (or "obey") I Cor. 12, Eph. 4, and other passages. They primarily do this through teaching and encouraging, though not necessarily from the pulpit. How is this unscriptural?

You also alluded to a person having to pay a minister for services to other people in the congregation. If the church pays a youth minister to teach and work with the teens, is this unfair, or wrong since there are many in the congregation that do not have teens, and therefore are having to pay for services provided to others? How is this different from hiring an involvement minister, who USUALLY provides services to all members - or at least those who are willing to get involved. If you are a member of Madison, perhaps you could go talk to the involvement minister who may be able to help you get more involved in the work of the church rather than discrediting it. Then YOU would benefit from it and wouldn't be paying for somebody else to get the services - assuming you do give to the church that is! If not, I suppose others will be paying for you to receive services.

BOTTOM LINE IS: If members were "involved" as they should be in the first place, there may not be as much of a need for an "involvement minister." Do you agree?

Perhaps if you get more involved, and encourage others as a "working man" to get more involved and use the talents God has given everyone, then at some point the involvement minister will no longer be needed and he can go out and get a "real job". Whatcha' think?

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Jimmy Wren
(no login)

I think...

September 24 2007, 10:00 PM 

biblesays: ...Whatcha' think?

Jimmy replies: biblesays, everything that you wrote makes a lot of sense for a 'worldly organization.' I have no problem with any of what you write if it is a man made organization.

The church of Christ is not a man made organization. Let me be quick to say that I care not who is paid to build a building or plumb the rest rooms. I do care about who is paid to help shepard a flock. According to the Scriptures God also cares about who helps tend his sheep.

Qualifications for preachers, teachers, elders and deacons are to be found in the Holy Scriptures. The Holy Scriptures also affirm that, 'according as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:' 2 Peter 1:3

Where do you find your 'freedom' to appoint new offices/ministers in the body of Christ, let alone pay them?

I replied to harry smith that if you think that the church is a denomination then it makes no difference what you do in a church! After all it is made by man; ruled by man; made for man; and it will perish with man. But if you believe the church to be the Body of Christ then all of what we are discussing will matter to you.

In Christ,

ps, I think that you should have got the job instead of Tom!

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(Login biblesays)

re: I think...

September 25 2007, 10:23 AM 

{I AGREE} "The church of Christ is not a man made organization.
Noone suggested the church was a man-made organization.

{I AGREE} According to the Scriptures God also cares about who helps tend his sheep.
Does GOD disapprove of the man that was selected as involvement minister? If so, how do you know? Did you ask him?

{I AGREE} Qualifications for preachers, teachers, elders and deacons are to be found in the Holy Scriptures.
Where are the qualifications for preachers and teachers found? Are they listed as the elders and deacons are in I Tim. 3?

You asked: "Where do you find your 'freedom' to appoint new offices/ministers in the body of Christ, let alone pay them?

Who suggested appointing "new offices / ministers"? Aren't we discussing the "office" of a minister (though the Bible doesn't call it an "office")? Is your concern what we call the minister, or what his function is, or what? Because you did not answer the questions I asked concerning your original objections to an "Involvement minister."

Allow me to ask again, (1) Is it wrong for the pulpit minister to be paid to do anything that is not directly related to the preaching of the word? (2) Is it wrong for him to be paid to do some area of ministry that only benefits a limited number of the congregation, while the whole congregation (from church funds) has to pay for it? (3) Is it wrong to have a youth minister who both shares the word as well as other things, but only for the teens? (4) If the church (God's organization) is authorized to hire a plumber who DOESN'T teach the word and for which the Bible is SILENT (no "authority"), why are a congregation's elders forbidden to hire a minister they call "involvement minister"? I don't read in the Bible where the term "pulpit minister" was used. Do you?

Now you bring up what seems to be a concern about the QUALIFICATIONS of the involvement minister at Madison. Is your Biblical objection in your first post to the involvement minister due to the fact that you believe the involvement minister that was hired is not qualified (if not, what passages do you refer to)? Or, is your objection that the qualifications for ministers in the Bible do not allow him to be called "involvement minister" and/or for his focus to be on TEACHING members to be involved per I Cor. 12?
Just what is your BIBLICAL objection to this matter? Please think that through.

You asked: Where do you find your 'freedom' to appoint new offices/ministers in the body of Christ, let alone pay them?
I'll tell you what, if you will tell me where you find your 'freedom' to hire a plumber, I will tell you where I find mine to hire an involvement minister (if I haven't already).

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

“The Collection FOR the Saints” Delivered

September 26 2007, 8:01 AM 

Hey, _____________:

You see, there’s a little problem with how the respondents here should address you in a personable manner. “Biblesays” sounds good, but it is misleading because you hardly quote from Scripture in all your arguments. Your responses have been your own viewpoints and rebuttals—not direct quotes from the Bible. You are a guest, a new guest, and you are being given the benefit. I think that a poster’s name is advisable, as well as a little bit of introduction of yourself to this forum. [BTW, “wordkeeper” (and who would not want to be a word keeper) has introduced himself as a former member of the church of Christ and has identified himself as “Harry Smith.”]

Due to time restraints, I would just like to ask you if you had considered hiring the Roman Catholic Pope or a Cardinal to serve as “involvement minister” in your church. The RCC pope is probably more ecumenically minded than an involvement minister—and much more respectable—in fact “the head of the Roman Catholic Church,” “the Holy Father,” “the Vicar of Christ. A Cardinal is one of those who advise the Pope—that’s not too bad!

What do you think of Paul’s ministry when he wrote in I Thessalonians 2:9—“For ye remember, brethren, our labour and travail: for labouring night and day, because we would not be chargeable unto any of you, we preached unto you the gospel of God

Ah, “the collection FOR the saints” and its distribution! I Corinthians 16—

    [1] Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye [churches of Corinth].

    [2] Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

    [3] And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.

Yes? The liberality among the saints in Galatia and in Corinth and the needy saints in Jerusalem!!! The passage above illustrates a wonderful example of the proper use of the saints' collection.

The originally brief message involving an "involvement minister" should revolve around the creation of such a NEW department of labor [“for the Master,” they say]—and the abuse and misuse of the saints’ collection. The truth of the matter is that evangelization should be taking place out there where souls are hungry for the message of salvation—not in here or among the saints.

In the case or situation brought up, there is already a financial burden in the local congregation due to the full-time employment of a “worship leader” for a part-time arm-wagging, when there were/are talented men who can do the task for free. Now, there is an “involvement minister” who was asked [enticed] to quit his former job and financial security for the church to fully employ and pay, when scores [several, several] of native preachers in other countries can be supported to do REAL evangelization among the lost and NOT among the already saved.

There is something wrong with that picture!


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harry smith
(Login wordkeeper)

Re: “The Collection FOR the Saints” Delivered

September 26 2007, 9:44 PM 

So much that needs addressing. First, if a church wants to employ the Pope as an involvement minister thats their business and none of mine and none of yours. I don't care if they hire Daffy Duck as a minister. This is an issue that needs to be kept in house and not splattered all over the internet. Gossip is the exposure of a private issue and the affected parties can resolve the problems internally without information leaked out to third parties. This, in my opinion, is gossip. If you all have any issues on who Madison employs as a minister and what responsibilities these ministers have then, go to the elders and discuss it with them. Talking about the issue without including whoever this minister is the same thing as gossip. It is also the perogative of each individual congregation to decide the responsibilites of each minister. It could be singles ministry, seniors ministry, visiting shut-ins. I don't care. They can even have a barber ministry if they feel they can reach people and help others. I don't care.
On the surface I agree that missions is underfunded and other ministries are overfunded. But in end it is God who is the ultimate judge of that, not me and not you. We all will be judged as stewards of the resources given to us, that includes Madison and ourselves. Tell me Bro. Cruz, can we perform an audit on your personal finances and judge how you spend money ?? Would you be embarrased ?? Maybe you should let this issue slide unless you are willing to face the same scrutinity as you have of Madison.
On the legitimacy of "Involvement" ministry I agree with what Biblesays and I state that evry church of Christ I have been in has a Pulpit Minister, along with a slew of other associate ministers. The Bible doesn't specifically mention these positions (Pulpit and Associates), then if your criticism is legitamate for one it has to include ALL.
I have to tell a personal story. During my teen years I had a strong desire to be rich which I felt would mean worry-free living. I read biographies of wealthy people hoping to become like one of them. I ran accross a newspaper article of a multimillionaire who committed suicide. I thought why would anybody who is wealthy commit suicide ? As I read the article it explained that he lived a very lonesome life and he didn't have any real friends. All his "friends" were there only for his money and he knew that. That man had as strong of an emotional need for love and friendship as a starving man in Africa needs food. I learned that it is not right to comapre one man's needs as greater as another man's needs. They are all genuine needs that are important to the individual. So as far as involvement ministry. You may believe that it is silly to have someone who needs assistance in getting involved in a large church. But, to the individuals who need help its just as important as any other function in the church. In God's eyes all our needs are important to Him regardless of how you feel how insignificant they are.
I would now appreciate you and Bro. Wrenn get off this issue and work to resolve it internally where it belongs.

Thank you

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There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

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Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
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120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
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