DenominationSeptember 26 2007 at 4:39 PM
|Zach (no login)|
from IP address 18.104.22.168
The "Church of Christ" has become a denomination. Was that the original intention? I'm under the understanding that there should be One Church, but yet we do insist on calling ourselves the "Church of Christ" I understand what that insinuates. It says that we are a CHURCH of CHRIST. I also do not think this is the case. The thing most talked about on this site is NOT CHRIST!! It is traditions, worship service, worship leaders, entertainment. How many of you think CHRIST cares one bit about that. God sees the heart. None of us deserve heaven. None of you are better than the Baptists, Catholics, etc. Who are you to say you have it right. None of us have it right. We're lowly humans and our wisdom could never touch God's stupidity. Jesus Christ cares about a Church who cares. A church that reaches out to the drunks, homosexuals, murderers, child abusers, sex offenders. A church should be filled with these people, not people dressed in ties trying to show how good we can dress for God. The world has a very tainted view of Religion. Read the last verse in James 1 and find out what Religion really is. Let's feed the homeless, take care of the widow's, and children. We are all sinners not worthy of Heaven, and God has every right to send us all to Hell when the day of judgment comes. So why not turn this site into a fund for the homeless or aids research, why must we sit and tussle over meaningless things, and believe me they are meaningless. I understand what communion is for, will I go to Hell if I don't take it? If I sing and praise God with a guitar will I go to Hell? Does God really care about these things. Maybe I'm wrong perhaps someone could enlighten me on why this site is necessary to the cause of Christ.
I live for His Glory,
Doesnt the church of Christ exist at all?
|September 27 2007, 7:52 AM |
This is a misstatement: that we are a CHURCH of CHRIST. The indefinite article a in that expression seems to suggest that there is also another church of Christ and yet another church of Christ and yet another. Perhaps, that is one reason why you and others of the same mindset believe that [quoting you]: The Church of Christ has become a denomination.
We ought to think that Christ established only one church, and that church would be His only. This is clearly explained in Matt. 16, prophesied in the Old Testament and fulfilled in Acts 1 and 2. Whatever happens in the religious community worldwide does not change that truth that Gods church will never cease to exist and will never become a denomination. Otherwise, can you honestly say that the Lords church does not exist any longer? Even if we take your statement that the church of Christ has become a denomination [I know your implication here] and if all are denominations, then, the church of Christ does not exist.
Your post covers too many sub-topics including your suggestion that this website no longer be a discussion board with the intent to warn congregations that the change agents are out there eager to transform the church of Jesus Christ into a denominational body. No, the message or purpose of this website is not going to change, nor will it become a fundraising campaigner for AIDS research.
Re: Doesnt the church of Christ exist at all?
|September 27 2007, 11:01 AM |
Do you think AIDS Research is a bad thing. I understand that if the world followed one man one woman and no sex before marriage that AIDS or any STD wouldn't be a problem whatsoever. My only point would be that there are many people with the disease that are innocent of any sin (children). Not that we shouldn't try to help the ones that have sinned, but that is just what your snooty reply implied. I do think that the "Church of Christ" is becoming a denomination and because of the people on this site. Your so blind that you only see things that occur in a building and forget that Church is people. How would you treat someone if they barged into your church in the middle of the sermon, or a prayer, or communion, and said "I am a homosexual, and I feel lost and don't know what to do?" would you shush him. Would a "man" from the church quietly take him outside and tell him "that's not how we do things around here" Or would your entire church quit the traditions of the "church" and circle him, lay hands and pray for him. Would he end up on a prayer list and be forgotten about. Or would someone try to help him everyday with accountability. My previous post is only to say that I think this site is thinking too much about Sunday morning and not about the rest of the week. How is it hurting God's kingdom to have a praise team. It's not my favorite thing, but I don't think that it is a salvation issue. We need to concentrate on souls and lives. We need more sinners in our church.
|Dr. Bill Crump|
Re: Doesnt the Church of Christ Exist at All?
|September 27 2007, 12:14 PM |
Every web site has its purpose and function. As Donnie said, this site is to warn others about the Change Movement and its potential to make shipwreck of the faith. That warning must continue until either every person lays down his man-contrived, denominational doctrines and follows the mandates of Christ laid out in the New Testament, or Christ returns to claim those who have faithfully followed Him.
If Zach is looking for a web site that funds AIDS research, there are plenty around; perhaps Zach would prefer to start another AIDS research site.
It is common to see people berating the purposes of others' web sites, especially if the purposes are not in keeping with those people's personal agenda. To those web sites that preach strict New Testament doctrine and admonish all to refrain from becoming suckered into the Change Movement, detractors and opponents cry, "Why aren't you out feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, and raising money for AIDS research?" The snide implication is that those who preach the New Testament on the Internet are incapable of simultaneously engaging in and supporting other projects that care for the needy. It is merely a ploy to smear those who not only take a stand for the New Testament but who also strongly oppose the abominations of the Change Movement.
Zach implied that certain practices that have come about in the Church are trivial or meaningless, such as worshiping with instrumental music and whether or not someone takes the Lord's Supper. Zach seemed to challenge God with a dare and might just as well have said, "What ya gonna do about it? Send me to hell over silly little trivial matters that shouldn't matter a hill of beans to You?" No, Zach didn't say those exact words, but his attitude seemed defiant, nonetheless.
Let's not forget that if God can take the trouble to number all the hairs of our heads (Matt. 10:30), surely a most "trivial" and "meaningless" task, then God will surely pay attention to every little and seemingly insignificant move that we make in our lives and take full stock of how we worship Him. Does Zach really want to challenge God by continuing to play his instruments in worship and gamble with his soul to find out whether God will damn him to hell over something "trivial"? Sure, instruments are "trivial" to Zach, but are they to God, seeing that God no longer authorizes instruments in Christian worship (Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16)? As the Bible says, God's ways are not our ways (Is. 55:8). Likewise, we cannot afford to treat the Lord's Supper in a trivial manner, for if we do, we eat and drink damnation to ourselves (1 Cor. 11:20-30).
We cannot base our lives and worship on what we assume or think is right with God and cast off what we imagine to be "trivial"; we must base our lives and worship on what God has definitively written in His Word, the New Testament.
|September 27 2007, 2:51 PM |
Tell me where it says definitively not to use instruments when worshiping God. Tell me where it says definitively that you can only worship God ONE way and there is NO other way. I know what you will tell me, and it is all opinion or your interpretation, which is not definitive.
|September 28 2007, 9:21 AM |
Tell me where it says definitively not to baptize babies? When you can answer this simple question, you will have the foundation of the answers to yours.
Re: Doesnt the Church of Christ Exist at All?
|September 27 2007, 3:01 PM |
If the mission of this web site is to warn others of the influence of these so called "change agents" then, why pray tell are we even addressing such a non issue as involvement ministry ??
No LAW needed to Obey Direct Commands.
|September 28 2007, 12:37 PM |
I want to expand on just a few ideas from the Romans 14-15 passage: In Romans 14 Paul outlawed letting the Roman SECTS dialog in the assembly. They would be Market-Place religions marked by DIET. However, like a church sign, that identified them all as addicted to music to "make the spirits come." Without dipping his pen, in Romans 15 Paul defined the assembly to EXCLUDE self-pleasure meaning all of the performing arts; and he INCLUDED the very definition of synagogue or ekklesia as "a school of the Bible" only.
Similar passages from Genesis to Revelation and in all known literature MARK the perverted pagans as using music to create AROUSAL and no scholar doubts the Religion-means-Sexuality connection. Impure religion or Threskia, which is EXCLUDED by INCLUDING right living and social justice, was invented by Orhpheus and the Lesbian singers-musicians. They were MARKED as having taken Homer's EPIC poetry and perverted it to LYRIC and then performed musically. As in the Vineyard, just before "giving of substance" the last ACT was using music to bring on a SEXUAL-LIKE CLIMACTIC EXPERIENCE with the Spirit. That is aka New Wineskins.
I am not sure anyone would need a LAW to keep from doing that which is disruptive, divisive and prevents the role of being "a school of the Bible." If even singing added about 373 in a few places was divisive why would you want to add instruments which are "premeditated" to sow discord and the "we think the losses are worth the effort"?
Rom 15:1 WE then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.
Music HURTS or causes PANIC which the vipers sell as the SPIRIT inside. That is why you don't ABUSE or mollest people who do not hear "churchy" (voodoo derived) singing as pleasant but as ABRADING which is the very root meaning of PSALLO "to grind into a fine powder."
"Please self" is a concept which includes the "laded burden" Jesus died to remove meaning "creation of spiritual anxiety through religious rituals."
G700 aresky ar-es'-ko Probably from G142 (through the idea of exciting emotion); to be agreeable (or by implication to seek to be so: please.
G142 airo ah'ee-ro A primary verb; to lift; by implication to take up or away; figuratively to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind); specifically to sail away (that is, weigh anchor); by Hebraism (compare [ H5375 ]) to expiate sin: away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (AWAY, up).
This connects to the word AEIDO and HERESY: no one imposes music on a peaceable church who does NOT intend to "lift you up (mentally) in order to CARRY YOU AWAY for his / her / its OWN USES. A Demagogue "appeases the masses by using the popular arts." Both the Greek and Latin word outlaws ALL performing arts because that MARKS the meaning of Hypocrite. All of the arousal singing and instrumental words are defined as enchantment or sorcery as did John in Revelation 18. We don't need a law to command us not to be a heretic or sorcery. Jesus pointed to Isaiah and Ezekiel 33 to identify the Scribes and Hypocrites (professionals only) by identifying rhetoricians, singers and instrument players. You don't NEED a law to keep from joining yourself to a church turned into a "theater for holy entertainment" meaning the Hypocritic or Histrionic arts.
There are several PSALLO words: the two most important ones are rooted in warfare and perverted seduction. One includes he idea of "hedonistic" men.
The word "psallo" used to justify deliberately sowing discord is NEVER a musical term: it means to pluck or tear or pull away. It is primarily a warfare word as in PLUCKING the bow to send a singing arrow into a literal heart. Secondly, it is a woud SPECIFICIALLY dedicated to the polluted rope they used to MARK people who dallied around the marketplace--where Jesus consigned the "pipers, singers and dancers"--and FORCE them into the EKKLESIA which permitted SPEAKING only and no entertainment. Thirdly, because Apollo (Abaddon) used his lyre to enable shooting LOVE ARROWS as the "father of homosexuality." The word NEVER speaks of playing an instrument but of plucking. Of ALL of the literature to justify IMPOSING instruments MARK older males plucking the harp strings to seduce a "youth minister" whose hairs had been PLUCKED.
As the SELF PLEASURE outlaws all of the performing arts--rhetoric, singing, playing, dancing and drama as the HYPOCRITIC arts--the word PSALLO is never DEFINED but it is used of the PLUCKING and always deadly or perverted:
Psallo I. In gen., to play upon a stringed instrument; esp., to play upon the cithara, to sing to the cithara: psallere elegantius, [carry AWAY] 1. to convey away (from the family) by bequest, to bequeath away
That is why those CEREMONIAL LEGALISTS who impose instruments--for their own profit--INTENTIONALLY drive away any of those who question "God's annointeds" thinking they can pick up REPLACEMENTS using entertainment. That is what happened at the first Abomination of Desolation.
The ekklesia is a synagogue or SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE: it has no other collective purpose where the Lord's Supper is a teaching or preaching activity.
Ro.15:2 Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification.
Aedificatio, III. Figurative, building up, instructing, edification. Absolute: [A] loquitur ad [B] Aedificationem [C] Ecclesiae [church], Vulg. 1 Cor. 14, 12 ; ib. Eph. 4, 12.
The Latin phrase loquitur ad Aedificationem Ecclesiae
defines THE meaning of the ekklesia or church and the same METHOD excludes music of any kind. Singing would be the ODE which defines "Hebrew cantillation" which means SPEAK as in the word SPEAK.
A. Loquor a. [Sanscr. lap-, to talk, whisper; Gr. lak-, elakon, laskô], to speak, talk, say (in the language of common life, in the tone of CONVERSATION.
b Act. 1. To speak out, to say, tell, talk about, mention, utter, name, declare, show, indicate or express clearly
The PLACE is the ekklesia which we call church.
B. Ecclesia ekklêsia, an assembly of the (Greek) people
This is how you SPEAK for EDUCATION in the ECCLESIAE. In Greek the word:
logik-os , ê, on, ( [logos] )
A. of or for speaking or speech, merê l. logikê, hê, speech,
opposite to mousikê and phantasia expressed in speech,
C. Ecclesiae similar to synagogue or church for VOCAL instruction only. Anyone who dallied around the marketplace would be MARKED by the polluted rope defined under the word PSALLO and unfit for "church attendance.
The Muses are the dirty, adulterous "musical worship team" of Apollo or Apollyon in Revelation. In Revelation 17 John identifies the Mother of Harlots. In Revelation 18 he says that the "lusted after FRUITS" will be removed along with the rhetoricians, singers and instrument players." John said that they were SORCERERS who HAD deceived the whole world. Originally these had been agents of "Lucifer the singing and harp playing prostitute" in the garden of Eden. Amos in the "musical worship" passages warns about the "baskets of summer FRUITSs." Thes were the same musical deviates.
Mousikos II. of persons, skilled in music, musical, III. of things, elegan, delicate [fruits], brômata Diox.1 ; professional musicians, mousikos kai melôn poêtês, hêdion ouden, oude -ôteron Philem.23 ; harmonious [in tune], fitting, trophêFor even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written,
The reproaches [making Him naked] of them that reproached thee fell on me. Romans 15:3
When Jesus identified the generation (race) of children the word is PLAY: Play was the musical idolatry at Mount Sinai. They wanted to PIPE hoping that Jesus would SING (lament) and Dance the Dionysus shuffle. That was the perverted "initiation" which was prophesied as the TRIUMPH OVER in Psalm 41. That is the meaning of a RACE of vipers or a CROOKED GENERATION used by Jesus and Peter: they were the perverted skolion singers and players in the usual perverted men's assemblies.
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning (teaching), that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. Romans 15:4
Paul commanded the Elders to "teach that which had been taught." He commanded Timothy how to conduct "ekklesia" by "giving attention to the (public) reading of the Word." Then identical to the synagogue and the APPROVED EXAMPLE of Jesus, He would sit down and discuss any univerals doctrine and exhort people to obey that read portion. People would say AMEN as in the historic church.
Now the God of patience and consolation
[the Comfort of God comes directly from Scripture]
grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus: Romans 15:5
If you Walk in the steps of Christ Jesus you will CAST OUTthe musical minstrels meaning "Like Dung" and consign the pipers, singers and dancers to the same Agora where they made music and one another. The second meaning of PSALLO in fact MARKS the musical children to the AGORA or MARKETPLACE where you MARKED peoplle by their diet (Rom 14) but all of the sects were highly vocal and instrumental.
Here is the DIRECT COMMAND for the only PRAISE or GLORIFYING permitted in the church where you "sing that which written" and "teach that which has been taught."
That ye may with ONE MIND and one MOUTH glorify (tell of His works) God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 15:6
This identifies UNISION which creates UNITY. It OUTLAWS speak performance singers as well as increasingly--distressing forms of complex harmony. Harmony is NEVER melody.
There is NO SILENCE or INFERENCES required to obey: Scripture and all literary and ethical scholars OUTLAW you from infering that yu can VIOLATE the direct command to SPEAK one to another.
The EKKLESIA has the same meaning as the Synagogue or church in the wilderness where instrumental and vocal rejoicing was outlawed during "school of the Bible," we should understand that as the Spirit OF Christ the Qahal or synagogue had been established for EDUCATION ONLY and it quarantined the people from the Kingly-Priestly Complex which was idental to all national kingdoms TO WHIGH God had abandoned them at Mount Sinai. The INSTRUMENTAL sacrifices, says Stephen, was "God having abandoned them to worship the STARRY HOST." Now, why would people twist THAT CURSE as a command to deliberately sow discord? This is the APPROVED EXAMPLE of Jesus.
"Hallel, in Jewish ritual, selection from the Psalms, chanted as part of the liturgy during certain festivals.
The more frequently used selection includes Psalms 113-118 and is known as the Egyptian Hallel, presumably because Psalm 114 begins.......
It is sung in synagogues on the first two days of Passover, on Shabuoth, on Sukkot, on each morning of the eight days of Hanukkah, and at the close of the Seder.
"The Hallel through the generations, on specific occasions: Pesachim 117a
"Hallel requires a full stomach and a satisfied spirit: Taanis 25b-26a
The reading is beloved to the people, and so they listen closely: Megillah 21b
"The Hallel as an Institution of the Prophets, to use to pray for salvation from danger: Pesachim 117a [2x]
Saying the Hallel daily is blasphemous: Shabbos 118b
The Spirit OF Christ spoke only through the Prophets and later the Apostles. ALL of the Prophetic people of God radically condemned the musical, sacrificial system of the CIVIL State as God's curse and REMOVING GRACE. Why would we need a LAW to keep from falling into that always-musical FALL FROM GRACE?
This OUTLAWS the same LADED BURDEN put down by Jesus which is "creating mental excitement through religious rituals." A repeating type song is CALLED a burden. This EXCLUDES all of the performing arts. The new SABBATH or REST (Pauo) is highly dedicated to saying, "Stop the speaking, stop the singing, stop the instruments meaning STOP the Panic.
The only way you can say that God DID NOT outlaw instruments AND associate them with Satan as source, warriors, temple exorcists, prostitutes and sodomites, is to utterly fail to DEFINE WORDS which is the meaning of being a DISCIPLE. I can prove that ALL of those imposing instruments and deliberaly sowing discord DELIBERATELY lie about all of the supposed-musical passages in the Bible and all known literature. Jesus says that the "sons of the Devil" are liars because the SPEAK on their own and Enoch to which Jude and others points identifies the PERFORMERS ignoring the Word as those FOR WHOM God prepared Hell. Isaiah 30 confirms.
If you want to do CEREMONIAL LEAGALISM and mock Jesus and His Word and identify yourself with the UNIVERSAL mark of perverted (crooked generation) of homosexuality, there is no law which says: "Thou shat NOT mark thyself as a musical pervert" whom Paul called DOGS to be left OUTSIDE of spiritual worship. Paul warned that it would be ELDERS who are outed as WOLVES which has the same meaning as DOGS. THAT is why about half of the OWNERS of any such perverted institute give both their coat and cloke and flee like Joseph.
|October 1 2007, 2:11 PM |
You guys are all right!! Change is bad! The way I see it we should all still be Jewish. Wasn't Jesus a change agent? I guess you guys are saying that it was all wrong until we found out the way it really is supposed to be. The Restoration Movement is when it was all figured out. To bad all those generations of people from after Jesus till then are all going to Hell, oh and don't forget the ones now that aren't legalistic.
Jesus abolished and established
|October 2 2007, 12:29 PM |
You asked, Wasnt Jesus a change agent? The following passages will answer your question:
No, Jesus was not a change agent; He was an abolisher and an establisher.
- For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. (Heb. 8:7)
- And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished. (2 Cor. 3:13)
- Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace. (Eph. 2:15)
- But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: (2 Tim. 1:10)
- Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. (Heb. 10:9)
Christians are now part of that which has been established. And that which has been established by Christ doesnt need alteration, modification, improvisation or replacement. Well, unless you see a need to return to that which has been abolished and be Jewish [again]contrary to your faulty logicor you see a need to improve upon Gods directives for the church and be part of the man-made Emergent Church.
Dont put the blame on the Restoration Movement. Restoration did/does not change that which is original.