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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
74.162.193.34

About "that last reply"

May 17 2008, 12:04 AM 

Dave,

In your post dated 5/12/08, your implication was that the majority in the brotherhood is aligning with certain congregations that have the “Worship Team” of both men and WOMEN co-leading with the “Worship Leader.” That just isn’t true (about the brotherhood)—unless you can provide some reliable stats as to how many of the 13,000 congregations have the “Baptist CHOIR” singing for them.

I recall when the “Senior Minister” [I mean, “Pastor”] of Madison was asked by an outsider if his congregation had a CHOIR. I believe that his response was something like this: “Yes, we do and everyone is a member of the choir.” Consider: (a) that he did not mention the Madison “Praise Team”; (b) that he did not say it was originally an 8-member team of men and women and is now a 16-member team; (c) that churches of Christ do not have a Baptist Choir; (d) that our churches are known for the best congregational singing and that even denominational bodies know that to be true; (e) that the 900 or so in attendance during the “contemporary” assembly are not members of the elite group.

“Fighting the body from within”? The overwhelming part of the body does not have “Worship Teams.” And these members are Christians. Remember?

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
72.154.232.20

Re: About "that last reply"

May 18 2008, 5:20 PM 

As he does quite often at FaithSite, Dave likewise pulls the psychological quirk here of transferring his opinions onto everyone else. People who are obsessed with certain practices or ideas and who earnestly lobby for them can develop the psychological quirk of thinking that everyone else believes exactly as they do. Reality may be completely opposite to what these people believe, but they are so obsessed with their own desires that they can see no other option.

And so it is with Dave. Although he claims "membership" in the church of Christ, he persistely advocates instrumental music and praise teams. And because he so desperately wants those items to be implemented in all churches of Christ, he has convinced himself that everyone in churches of Christ want them as well or have already implemented them. While some churches of Christ have indeed turned apostate and have introduced instrumental music and praise teams, Dave has yet to cite any legitimate studies proving that such unscriptural changes have indeed been implemented in the vast majority of churches of Christ.

Therefore, Dave is a victim of his own wishful thinking, and his "opinions" are just that--"opinions" and speculative to boot.

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
64.234.80.155

Re: About "that last reply"

July 5 2008, 2:32 PM 

Bill Crumps said of me....
"And so it is with Dave. Although he claims "membership" in the church of Chst, he persistely advocates instrumental music and praise teams. And because he so desperately wants those items to be implemented in all churches of Christ..."

On another thread titled 'Disturbing things at Rochester College.' I called William (Bill Crump) down on this very lie.
I ask again now for him to prove anywhere, on this forum, Faithsite, or elsewhere where I ADVOCATE instrumental music......or want instrumental music implemented in all churches of Christ,

He has already been banned mulitiple times from Faithsite for his unChristlike behavior, and now I want to show what kind of person he is here too.
I am sure that, whatever the outcome here, he will not be banned at Concerned Members. Does that then say anything for this site?
He, of course, does not have to reply.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
65.1.219.46

The musical machines "enhancing worship"?

July 5 2008, 4:01 PM 

Dave,

I have reread Dr. Crump’s post. You’ve quoted only a portion of his post to justify whatever you’re trying to prove. He’s qualified his remark by stating:

    “… While some churches of Christ have indeed turned apostate and have introduced instrumental music and praise teams, Dave has yet to cite any legitimate studies proving that such unscriptural changes have indeed been implemented in the vast majority of churches of Christ.”

That’s the issue, Dave. While you believe that instrumental music “enhances worship,” you’re at the same time giving the IMPRESSION that the majority of the churches of Christ believes the same way. That’s just isn’t true. What’s true is that there are only a few of the congregations that have succumbed to the pressures of the culture drive for churches to be all alike where you can’t tell the differences anymore. That’s just is NOT THE MAJORITY.

As far as banning is concerned, you cannot present that as a case of “bad behavior.” Different sites have different standards. Faithsite, which happens to be liberal-doctrine-based, at some point banned several conservative posters as DEMANDED by the liberal posters—who had sent emails to the moderators demanding the BAN.

If you’re observant enough, Dave, you would notice that the conservative posters are/have been allowed, after all, to continue to post. The original banning was based on the liberal-minded being threatened, not by some of the denominational posters who even go so far as condemning the church of Christ and calling it a “cult,” but by conservative members of the church.

The banning of conservative posters has not occurred since. Are you aware of that?

 
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Dave
(no login)
64.234.80.155

Re: The musical machines "enhancing worship"?

July 5 2008, 10:17 PM 

Ok, Donnie, since you lied about the same thing too over at Faithsite, and as yet have failed to prove it not to be a lie, let's take what you just wrote about William.

“… While some churches of Christ have indeed turned apostate and have introduced instrumental music and praise teams, Dave has yet to cite any legitimate studies proving that such unscriptural changes have indeed been implemented in the vast majority of churches of Christ.”

Donnie, show me anywhere where I have said that the vast majority of churches of Christ have implemented instrmental music.

Also Donnie, I quoted Crump on....
"And so it is with Dave. Although he claims "membership" in the church of Chst, he persistely advocates instrumental music and praise teams. And because he so desperately wants those items to be implemented in all churches of Christ..."

Donnie, you are welcome to deny that for William.
Give it a shot. Have I ever said that I ADVOCATE instrumental music?

Just remember Donnie....you guys asked for this!
You guys want to try to be the church police with this junk?
With lies???

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
70.157.38.7

Re: The musical machines "enhancing worship"?

July 7 2008, 5:55 PM 

The only "bad behavior" I see is Dave's hostile reaction because I accurately describe his penchant for taking his own personal opinions about instrumental music in worship and transferring and projecting those opinions onto the vast majority of churches of Christ. Dave absolutely must learn that, although he sees no problem with implementing IM in churches of Christ, that certainly does not guarantee that the vast majority of churches of Christ are of the same opinion. Surely Dave is not so arrogant as to believe, "As Dave thinks, so the entire world bows in agreement."

Perhaps Dave has talked to a few of his friends at his own church of Christ congregation, and perhaps they feel as Dave does and would like to implement IM in their church. But again, that is absolutely no grounds to conclude that the vast majority of church of Christ congregations in the USA or the world wants to defy the New Testament and bring IM into their congregations.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
70.156.18.190

Re: The musical machines "enhancing worship"?

July 8 2008, 9:00 AM 

I noted that Dave said, "Have I ever said that I ADVOCATE instrumental music?" Is Dave now switching lanes and saying that he DOESN'T advocate IM? Is he now saying that implementing IM in any church of Christ congregation would be defying the New Testament? As I recall at FaithSite, Dave's opinion is that he sees nothing wrong with churches having IM if it is their preference, whether they be churches of Christ or the denominations. But in mainstream churches of Christ, having IM is NOT a "preference" but a defiance of New Testament Scripture. Therefore, members of the church of Christ who see nothing wrong with having IM as much as ADVOCATE IM. If you don't flatly reject IM, then you advocate or approve of IM.

Beliefs about IM should be based on New Testament principles, not on personal "preference." So which is it? Does Dave advocate IM in worship or not? If not, then he should cease his claim the vast majority of churches of Christ want or prefer IM, when he has never been able to cite large, statistical studies to prove his claim.

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
130.127.130.149

Re: The musical machines "enhancing worship"?

July 11 2008, 5:19 PM 

William (Bill Crump) wrote....
"Therefore, members of the church of Christ who see nothing wrong with having IM as much as ADVOCATE IM. If you don't flatly reject IM, then you advocate or approve of IM."

William, the farce is for those members, such as yourself, that condemn the Christian church because they have chosen to use IM.
I prefer a capella, they prefer to use instrumennts of music for their worship. I personally would not want to worship at a church that uses instrumental music. However, and NO William, it doesn't work like you think.
So if you are not against IM, then you are for it???
Nope, it don't work that way William. Never has, even though many have advocated such for a long long time.
Because I don't condemn what God doesn't, then I advocate IM???
No! That is logic not from a follower of Christ, but of the evil one.
YOU condemn and judge wrongly and will therefore be held accountable for this debauchery.



 
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Ken Sublett
(no login)
69.19.14.28

Worship teams and rhetoricians came from hell.

July 5 2008, 4:46 PM 

When you see the overwheming focus on MUSICAL WORSHIP TEAMS (an oxymoron) and known RHETORICIANS not in love with the TRUTH suddenly flock together for a DECLARATION OF INDEPENDANCE you know the MARKS have been outed. Jesus called them ME who were acting like CHILDREN in the marketplace.

While this post is a picture to get the formatting, you can read and look at the links by clicking below:

http://www.piney.com/DocPlaPhaedrus.html

You can understand that which Peter said was HARD TO UNDERSTAND and therefore OUTLAWED private interpretation as the only PROFESSION for the rhetoricians, singers and instrumentalists Jesus called HYPOCRITES and all recorded history markes them as not being able to EAT as parasites in the marketplace unless they tell lies.








 
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What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

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Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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