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CHRISTIANS AND CHRISTMAS

December 21 2008 at 1:36 PM
Reviewed  (Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
from IP address 72.150.117.117

Dear Readers:

Today's lesson reminds us that we must be content to abide within the doctrine of Christ (II John 9-10). The desire to be like the world is a powerful allurement that has caused many to go astray. As more and more of our congregations adopt the ways and practices of the Catholic and Protestant denominations we need this reminder. Please share this lesson with those where you worship. Forward it to others who are in your address book.

-John Waddey


*********************************

CHRISTIANS AND CHRISTMAS

Around the word, religious people observe the Christmas Holy Day. Is such a religious observance approved by God? As we consider this, remember our commitment is to worship God exactly as did the first Christians.

Is December 25 Christ's birthday? Neither Scripture nor history offer not a word to determine the date of his birth. "The day of Christ's birth cannot be ascertained from the New Testament, or indeed from any other source. The fathers of the first three centuries do not speak of any special observance of the nativity..." (McClintock and Strong, Cyclopedia, Vol. 3:p.276). "Chrysostom, in 386, states that the celebration of the birth of Christ according to the flesh `was not inaugurated in Antioch until ten years before that date'" (Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Relgious Knowledge, Vol. 3, p.46).

December 25th was determined by the decree of Liberious, bishop of the church in Rome, in 354 A.D. The date was widely and hotly disputed by others. Days in nearly every month were set forth. "The Western Church ordered the feast to be celebrated on the day of the Mithraic rites of the birth of the sun (Americana). "The pagan Saturnalia and Brumalia were too deeply entrenched in popular custom to be set aside by Christian influence. The pagan festival with its riot and merrymaking was so popular that Christians were glad of an excuse to continue its celebration with little change in spirit or in manner" (Schaff-Herzog, Vol 3, p. 48). The very name Christ's Mass reveals its origin.

Jesus tells us to "observe all things whatsoever (he) commanded" (Matt. 28:20). But he did not command a Christmas observance. Therefore we should not observe this day as an act of worship and devotion. Paul warns us "not to go beyond the things which are written" (I Cor. 4:6). But no New Testament writing tells us to observe a holy day for Christ's birth. To do so is to go beyond what is written. Such religious practices are vain worship, being the precepts of men rather than of God (Matt. 15:9).

God gave his church only one special day, the first day of the week. This is the day of Christ's resurrection; the day of the church's beginning (Mark 16:1-2; Acts 2). It is presumptuous for us to add other items to God's divine plan. Had God wanted such an observance he would have told us. When Christians in Galatia took up the observance of "days, and months, and seasons and years," Paul wrote, "I am afraid of you, lest by any mans I have bestowed labor upon you in vain" (Gal. 4:10-11).

Our society makes Dec. 25th a national holiday. We do not observe the religious observance of this day, but neither can we "go out of this world" (I Cor. 5:9-10). It is the author's view that we can observe the legal, civil, social holiday, just as we do Independence Day or Thanksgiving Day. We can take the day off from work with pay; accept a Christmas bonus; receive a Christmas gift; eat a Christmas feast; give presents to family and friends and; enjoy the holiday festivities without sin. But the church should not make a religious observance of that which God has not authorized.

___________________________________
John Waddey, Editor
Christianity: Then and Now

E-Mail: johnwaddey@aol.com

 
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AuthorReply
Stephen
(no login)
64.149.165.2

How sad

December 22 2008, 4:54 PM 

I find it sad when churches say that because the World celebrates Christ on this one day in unity and harmony, that we should not talk about Christ's birth, life, death, and birth. No one is saying this is Christ's birthday or that it should be a religous holiday. However, Since we do celebrate Christ's Birth, life, death, and birth, why can't we use such a day when so many people are actually focused on Christ to reach others. Not just tell them about his birth, but his life and more importantly why he was born and why he died. We should tell that story everyday in the church. I find it insulting and degrading when the church on the 25th of December stops and preaches why we shouldn't celebrate Christ today, Hypocrites. We celebrate it EVERYDAY, including the 25th of December. So This Christmas and Everday before it and after go and tell the good news, how God gave his only son for our sins so that we can have everlasting life with our father when we depart this world. I know this Christmas I won't stop celebrating Christ! Will you?

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
65.1.220.84

Let the truth be known and make it relevant

December 23 2008, 12:42 AM 

Stephen,

I think you missed one significant item in the original article stating that there is nothing in Scripture to suggest that the birth of Christ is to be observed as a "holy day," much less to designate the 25th of December as the day Christ was born -- which in itself has not been precisely determined.

If the Roman or paganistic influence had not orginated "that day" upon which the citizens of the world [including "Christians" also] were to celebrate and sing, "Happy Birthday to You ... Happy Birthday, Dear Jesus," would it have been originated by some other [e.g., non-Roman] culture or influence at some other, later period? We don't know. Maybe or maybe not.

The Scripture has a lot to say about celebrations, holidays and festivities. For example, Isaiah 1 has this message:


[11] To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
[12] When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
[13] Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
[14] Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
[15] And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
[16] Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil....


That's not to say that it is evil to think and that we never talk about the lowly birth of Jesus when we proclaim the message of His life and sacrifice and suffering and death on the cross, His burial and resurrection.

Now, I agree with you and churches of Christ have been/are known to do this that while "Christmas" is a religious celebration in the Catholic and Protestant world, we should take this opportunity to explain and have a clear understanding that December 25 as the "birthday of Christ" is man-ordained.

There is no harm in making known that truth about the December 25th myth. But let us not fail to make the physical birth of Jesus relevant to the gospel of salvation -- that the Savior of mankind, by God's grace and love, came to this world to offer redemption in His blood.

 
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Stephen
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64.149.165.2

Here is how a Christmas Sermon should start...

December 23 2008, 5:39 PM 

While we understand that we have no knowledge when Christ was born, we see this, as the world is focusing it's attention to Christ, as the perfect time to not only tell the story of how our savior came to earth, but why he came and what he did...

You can make this statement without sounding judgemental and condeming. When I was young in the Church of Christ my parents actually took us out of a church we were visiting on our way home on the 25th which was on a sunday because they were preaching about Christ. I didn't understand this as a child, but when I was older that moment really stuck on me in my own journey through God's word and not some preachers. I know there are actually some churches that would go the route of not even mentioning Christ's name because of the 25th of December, lest they find themselves, in their hearts sinning.

Look at it this way when God told us to go out into all the world and preach the gospel, he didn't say "Oh except for the 25th of December, because one day the world is going to attach some stigma to it as my son's birthday." Sounds like we might not quite be being silent where the Bible in silent.

To me if it's in your heart that this might cause you to sin, then find a church that feel's like you. But, don't throw judgement on congregations that see this as another way to reach a world that so often closes the door on us.

A Very Merry Christmas to all!

Stephen

 
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Joe
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76.18.153.200

Very merry christmas to all

December 24 2008, 8:25 AM 

Ya if you are a catholic or a pagan, well catholics are pagan so marry christmas to all catholics.

To God be the Glory
Joe McKnight

Oh ya, the time of Christ's birth is in the bible. check out Sunday School in Exile if you need (or should I say "want")help with this math problem.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
72.154.230.44

Re: Here is how a Christmas Sermon should start...

December 26 2010, 10:31 AM 

Stephen wrote: "When I was young in the Church of Christ my parents actually took us out of a church we were visiting on our way home on the 25th which was on a sunday because they were preaching about Christ."

The wording of the statement implies that Stephen's family left the service because his parents were opposed to preaching that focused on Christ--period. ALL preaching should be focused on Christ. I think Stephen means his parents were opposed to preaching that focused on the birth of Christ when Christmas Day fell on Sunday. It is important to clarify that.


 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: CHRISTIANS AND CHRISTMAS

December 26 2010, 12:12 AM 

I "devoured" a big Christmas breakfast this morning. I "devoured" a big Christmas meal at mid-day with 2 desserts. This evening I couldn't "devour" as much but it was still ... you know. The big question was asked of me later on: "Um ... do you still run 3 miles a day and how fast [or slow] do you run now?" (I think you get my point.)

Here are questions to ask:

1. Did your congregation have a Christmas program last Sunday?
2. Do you really believe that Christ was born on Dec. 25?
3. Do you believe that Christmas is of Catholic/pagan origin?
4. Do you celebrate Christmas as a religious festival?
5. Is it wrong to celebrate Christmas as a religious festival?
6. Do you celebrate Christmas only as a season of giving?
7. Should preachers, without making it a religious festival, take the opportunity to preach the birth of Christ and emphasize why He came to earth and God's plan of redemption?

 
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Dave
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69.59.112.185

No Doubt

December 26 2010, 11:22 PM 

I figured this one was coming.....and J. Waddey making mention of it just shows you that even after people have been taught better they still go after the old WRONG ways. They don't put up their wishes against the Word of God. That is why you have people like J. Waddey lamenting this Christmas holiday as being something negative. Some people just can't be positive. They can't because that is their makeup.......gloom and doom whiners.

Hey Donnie, those questions......the amateur comedian coming out in you.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: No Doubt

December 27 2010, 12:05 AM 

Dave,

You didn't say anything about two things:

1. How much you "devoured" on Christmas Day.
2. Your answer(s) to any of the questions posed.

The British scientists may claim to have solved the mystery: "Which came first: the chicken or the egg?"

Members of the church of Christ should undoubtedly know which occurred first:

(a) The church of Christ not celebrating Christmas or the birth of Christ on December 25 as a religious festival

........ or ........

(b) the change agents acquiring the practice from the Roman Catholic Church (or pagans) and Protestant neighbors of celebrating Christmas or the birth of Christ on December 25 as a religious festival.


Your statement: "that even after people have been taught better they still go after the old WRONG ways" is erroneous and is not factual.

Now, Dave, would you answer the questions posed above?


 
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Dave
(no login)
69.59.112.185

Wrong Again.....And Again.....And Again.....

December 27 2010, 1:21 AM 

"that even after people have been taught better they still go after the old WRONG ways"

IS CORRECT.....

People have been erring/sinning since Adam........they take the Right Ways of God and think they can make His Ways better. All OLD ways are not right.....man takes his wishes to be right over God. Those old ways will never be better. Only the Ways of God are right......NEW and OLD.

So try as you might, Donnie, you cannot make this Christmas holiday something bad. What is bordering on lunacy is that you take it to be a historical pagan holiday. If men continue to uphold Christmas with CHRIST in it, it will ALWAYS be good, no matter how much you whine and spit at it.
Jesus DID have a day that He was born. Most historians believe that it wasn't December 25th. That isn't the point. The point is that some men still take time to show observance to our King, around this time of the year. It isn't so much a particular day, but an observance. Yes, we, as Christians, observe the birth, death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord and King.....everyday.

J. Waddey said....."God gave his church only one special day, the first day of the week."
I would consider that near blasphemy. God continues to give us SEVEN days a week to worship Him. They are ALL SPECIAL. We do gather together on the first day of the week to worship as a whole body.
HOWEVER, does that make Sunday more special to Thursday as a day of worship. Let us go to the Scriptures to see what God says, instead of what J. Waddey believes.
Romans 14
5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.
What did Jesus say about healing on the sabbath? Why did He say that? EVERY day, given to the Lord, is special and a day to serve Him.

The most wonderful thing about this time of the year is that maybe....just maybe.....someone takes a look at our Savior and sees Him as the Savior of the World and comes to believe in Him. Even if one person has done so, and you KNOW that it has happened before.....then Christmas is GOOD!!!






 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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74.241.142.223

Every Day Is Good

December 27 2010, 9:20 AM 

Dave wrote: "The most wonderful thing about this time of the year is that maybe....just maybe.....someone takes a look at our Savior and sees Him as the Savior of the World and comes to believe in Him. Even if one person has done so, and you KNOW that it has happened before.....then Christmas is GOOD!!!"

Let's see what happens when we edit this statement a bit: "The most wonderful thing about every day of the year is that maybe....just maybe.....someone takes a look at our Savior and sees Him as the Savior of the World and comes to believe in Him. Even if one person does so on each day of the year, and you KNOW that it has happened before.....then every day of the year is GOOD!!!"

In reality, people don't have to depend on man-made days like Christmas to discover Christ and believe Him as the Son of God. They can do so every day of the year.




 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Wrong Again.....And Again.....And Again.....

December 27 2010, 3:36 AM 

Dave,

You make such general statements that many christians already know [as in "common knowledge"] or believe :

-- People erring/sinning since Adam (oh, yeah?)
-- Man making God's ways better (change agents' specialty)
-- That Jesus had a day that He was born (who didn't know that?)
-- To show observance to our King around this time of the year -- the issue
-- SEVEN days a week to worship Him (why not?)
-- Only God's ways are right (no Christian objects to that)
-- etc., etc.

Those are not arguments in favor of designating December 25 as the "birthday" of Christ, and therefore celebrating and singing "Happy Birthday to You, Happy Birthday to You, Jesus" as you would "Happy Birthday to You, Happy Birthday to You, Dear Dave."

Christmas is a "historical pagan holiday." How can you think otherwise? Unless you rewrite history. And Dave rewriting history?


Roman Pagan Religion:
Attis was a son of the virgin Nana. His birth was celebrated on DEC-25. He was sacrificed as an adult in order to bring salvation to mankind. He died about MAR-25, after being crucified on a tree, and descended for three days into the underworld. On Sunday, he arose, "as the solar deity for the new season." 5 His followers tied an image of Attis to a tree on "Black Friday," and carried him in a procession to the temple. His body was symbolically eaten by his followers in the form of bread. Worship of Attis began in Rome circa 200 BCE.
Greek Pagan Religion:
Dionysus is another savior-god whose birth was observed on DEC-25. He was worshipped throughout much of the Middle East as well. He had a center of worship in Jerusalem in the 1st century BCE. Some ancient coins have been found in Gaza with Dionysus on one side and JHWH (Jehovah) on the other. In later years, his flesh and blood were symbolically eaten in the form of bread and wine. He was viewed as the son of Zeus, the Father God.
Egyptian Pagan Religion:
Osiris is a savior-god who had been worshipped as far back as Neolithic times. "He was called Lord of Lords, King of Kings, God of Gods...the Resurrection and the Life, the Good shepherd...the god who 'made men and women be born again'" 5 Three wise men announced his birth. His followers ate cakes of wheat which symbolized his body. Many sayings associated with Osiris were taken over into the Bible. This included: (1) 23rd Psalm: an appeal to Osiris as the good Shepherd to lead believers through the valley of the shadow of death and to green pastures and still waters; (2) Lord's Prayer: "O amen, who art in heaven..."; (3) Many parables attributed to Jesus. Worship of Osiris, and celebration of his DEC-25 birth, were established throughout the Roman Empire by the end of the 1st century BCE.
Persian Pagan Religion:
Mithra was a Persian savior. Worship of Mithra became common throughout the Roman Empire, particularly among the Roman civil service and military. Mithraism was a competitor of Christianity until the 4th century. Their god was believed to have been born on DEC-25, circa 500 BCE. His birth was witnessed by shepherds and by gift-carrying Magi. This was celebrated as the "Dies Natalis Solic Invite," The "Birthday of the Unconquered Sun." Some followers believed that he was born of a virgin. During his life, he performed many miracles, cured many illnesses, and cast out devils. He celebrated a Last Supper with his 12 disciples. He ascended to heaven at the time of the spring equinox, about March 21.
The Babylonians: . . .
. . . celebrated their "Victory of the Sun-God" Festival on DEC-25. Saturnalia (the Festival of Saturn) was celebrated from DEC-17 to 23 in the Roman Empire. The Roman Emperor Aurelian blended Saturnalia with a number of birth celebrations of savior Gods from other religions, into a single holy day: DEC-25. After much argument, the developing Christian church adopted this date as the birthday of their savior, Jesus. The people of the Roman Empire were accustomed to celebrating the birth of a God on that day. So, it was easy for the church to divert people's attention to Jesus' birth.
I gather that, as you said, since "EVERY day, given to the Lord, is special and a day to serve Him" ... would you observe the Lord's Supper every day to commemorate His suffering and death?

How did you come up with: "Yes, we, as Christians, OBSERVE the BIRTH, death, burial and resurrection of our Lord and King.....everyday"? Without including His suffering? Observe His birth? I gather from that assertion that you are in favor of "celebrating" Jesus' birthday everyday of the year. Do you do it?

 
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Sonny
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99.186.93.107

Christians Celebrating Christmas, etc.

December 27 2010, 11:57 AM 

Brother Cruz,

Most, if not all, of the "most conservative" C of C Christians I know (in my extended family, in my congregation, in other congregations) celebrate Christmas. (They refer to themselves as conservative.) They sing songs that include Jesus' birth at the worship assembly in December, etc. If you believe they are all wrong for celebrating the story of Jesus including the birth of Jesus at Christmas, what do you conclude about the situation?

For example, do you conclude they are not true Christians? Do you believe their salvation is in jeopardy? Or will Jesus' blood cover any shortcomings about Christmas?

Furthermore, for which of the following could a Christian be mistaken and still be covered by grace. For the sake of time I will only list 10. You can respond by saying something like, "If they are mistaken about #'s 2,3 and 8 they will be o.k. as long as they are not on the other 7." Or "If they are wrong on any 1 then they are not a true Christian or their soul is at least in jeopardy but God is the judge." or whatever. In my examples, I am not saying which is correct, but just the topic in general. For example, you could interpret that one may be mistaken on #1 by saying that observing Christmas is sin and be mistaken.

1. Observance of Christmas
2. Interpretation of Revelation
3. Children using crayons at the church building in class or pews - yes, I've heard some say this is "entertainment"
4. Knowledge of Bible Translations (inaccurate knowledge)
5. Knowledge of "Denominations" (inaccurate knowledge - whatever that might be)
6. Inconsistent Prayer Life
7. Knowledge of the Holy Spirit (inaccurate knowledge)
8. Worship (this could be on any worship matter - heart, spirit, truth - including a mistaken conservative or mistaken liberal)
9. Lifestyle Sin (judgmental attitude(s), unforgiving spirit, materialism, sexual impurity, pride, slander, etc.)
10. Financial Giving (mistaken or inconsistent in tithing, helping the poor, generosity, etc.)

-Sonny

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.31

An example

December 27 2010, 2:12 PM 

There are only Two "actors" in the God to Man actions:

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly,
that God
hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified,
both Lord and Christ.

1Cor. 8:5 For though there be that are called gods,
whether in heaven or in earth,
(as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1Cor. 8:6 But to us
there is but ONE GOD, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him;
and ONE LORD Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him

2Cor. 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness,
hath shined in our hearts,
to give the light of the
knowledge of the glory of God
in the face of Jesus Christ.

If you believe and teach and REST your opinion on the belief that a spirit ''people" guides you beyond the sacred page then you are beyond redemption because you will never again believe that that "sexual arousal" by the singy-clappy boys was NOT what they blasphemously call "worship." Hebrews 6 makes it clear that there is no redemption for those who reject the Word of Christ.

The TWO ACTORS overwhelms all of the letters where The Holy Spirit Who is "Jesus Christ" completes guiding the Apostles into ALL truth. If you deny that the same John who said that the NAME of the Holy Spirit Comforter is "Jesus Christ" the ONLY human mediator, then you are an ANTI-christ and I would say that is a "SalvaShun Issure" where simply stating the term means contempt for the fact that God is God and you are not:

[linked image]

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.31

And Furthermore:

December 27 2010, 2:36 PM 

Worship (this could be on any worship matter - heart, spirit, truth - including a mistaken conservative or mistaken liberal)

Christ ordained the only meaning of IN the spirit worship for the synagogue or Church of Christ in the wilderness.
It was INCLUSIVE of Rest, reading and rehearsing the Word of God: that defines a disciple--not a ceremonial legalist.
It was EXCLUSIVE of vocal or instrumental rejoicing: that which no reverent person does when the Word of God is being PREACHED by being READ.

That never changed until the time of Jesus who was chosen to carry out all of the prophecies made by Christ for Messiah.
His task was to fire the doctors of the law because they then and always "take away the key to knowledge."
And to repudiate the Scribes and Pharisees (writers-sermonizers) as hypocrites whom He names in Isaiah

In the New Testament the pattern of PREACHING the Word by READING the Word never changed.

Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 1 Tim 4:2

Hupokrinô reply, make answer
2. expound, interpret, explain [outlawed by Peter as private interpretation] II. Att., speak in dialogue, hence play a part on the stage, be an actor, kômôidian, of orators and rhetoricians, represent dramatically, use histrionic arts, exaggerate, deliver a speech, declaim, of orators and rhetoricians, represent dramatically. Cantus sing and repeatsongs.


If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained. 1 Tim 4:6

1Tim. 4:7 But refuse profane and old wives fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.


Prophesy of Uncovered Prophesying:


"For from this roof never departs a choir chanting in unison, but singing no harmonious tune; for it tells not of good. And so, gorged on human blood, so as to be the more emboldened, a revel-rout of kindred Furies haunts the house, hard to be drive away. "Lodged within its halls they chant their chant, the primal sin; and, each in turn, they spurn with loathing a brother's bed, for they bitterly spurn the one who defiled it. Have I missed the mark, or, like a true archer, do I strike my quarry?

Or am I prophet of lies, a door-to-door babbler? Bear witness upon your oath that I know the deeds of sin, ancient in story, of this house."


1Tim. 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to (public) reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
1Tim. 4:14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy,
with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
1Tim. 4:15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.
1Tim. 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them:
for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

People who FABRICATE their own sermons always use MYTHS and OLD WIVES TALES.
I would say that to be both DAMNING and causing the ENABLERS to also be lost.
The Lord's Supper is to PREACH the death of Jesus Christ and thereby cause people to sacrifice (burn up) their FLESH so that their worship is RATIONAL which means SPIRITUAL--in the PLACE of the human spirit.

People who work so desperately hard to GET themselves UP trying to appease God define LEGALISM.

Literal worship means to FALL ON YOUR FACE in reverence and godly fear. Hebrews 12 prophesies another SHAKING like the trumpet sounds at Mount Sinai. Only those things which WILL NOT SHAKE will remain. EVERYTHING fabricated by human hands and human composers will FALL. John defined the speakers, singers and instrument players as SORCERERS: Sorcerers along with the DOGS (old style praise singer) will be CAST ALIVE INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE. I would call that a SalvaShun Issure.


 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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72.154.251.85

Re: Christians Celebrating Christmas, etc.

December 27 2010, 2:14 PM 

Sonny wrote: "Most, if not all, of the 'most conservative' C of C Christians I know (in my extended family, in my congregation, in other congregations) celebrate Christmas."

Beware the masses. Is the opinion of the masses always correct? Just because "most" of a group of people follow a man-made tradition does not guarantee those people are biblically correct.

In other words, if a group of church of Christ congregations imitate the Roman Catholics and observe Christmas as a "holy" day, does that guarantee those congregations are correct? Absolutely not.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.31

Tithing

December 27 2010, 2:43 PM 

10. Financial Giving (mistaken or inconsistent in tithing, helping the poor, generosity, etc.)

YOU are free to give 100% of all you own to the POOR.

Anyone who tells YOU that YOU should tithe to THEM or preach a Law of "laying by in store in the COLLECTION plate" is a liar and a thief: Paul's presence would be an EXTORTING influence and extortionists are lumped with all ofther terminal sinners.

If you give anything because the preacher holds out his hand in place of the DESTITUTE and YOU believe that you have to obey his LAW then you have been taken captive and the blind who are caused to fall into the pit or hell gets no sympathy from a holy God.



 
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Fred Whaley
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173.162.22.85

Re: Christians Celebrating Christmas, etc.

December 27 2010, 3:21 PM 

Good old Doc. I guess he believes even the conservatives are going to burn. Only ULTRA-conservatives who do not celebrate Christmas in any form have a chance to make it to heaven. I am certainly thankful that the Doctor does not make that decision. The Doctor's beliefs do not emulate the loving Father and loving Son Jesus found in Scripture.

Fred Whaley

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Christians Celebrating Christmas, etc.

December 27 2010, 3:36 PM 

Brother Fred,

Your message is spiteful. Toward Dr. Crump as usual.

Would you present your own arguments for the observance of the Christmas festivity in the local church? Local church, Fred. Perhaps at your own congregation?

Thanks!

 
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Fred Whaley
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173.162.22.85

Re: Christians Celebrating Christmas, etc.

December 28 2010, 11:38 AM 

D.C............my opinion is that Churches of Christ in the past have been hypocritical in December. We have talked about how unscriptural Christmas is and yet have celebrated the "worldy" aspect of it by getting with family to exchange gifts and giving gifts to our children from Santa which I am actually not against in moderation except when we simultaneously are saying that religiously it is a bad thing. Christmas was begun as a way for the Christians to convert pagans. Most in the world and in the church are ignorant of this and much of the Bible period. Regardless I think Christians who celebrate Christmas are not worshippiing pagan gods. Those who have a Christmas tree in their house are not worshipping the tree contrary to preachers I have heard in the past who adamantly insisted this is so. Since Christmas is not mandated in the Bible but was begun later by the Catholic Church Christians do not have to observe it. Whether a Christian does or does not celebrate Christmas is a matter of choice and conscience as Dave mentioned from Romans chapter 14. In a nutshell Christians are free to choose but need to be careful about hypocrisy and commercialism in the month of December. I have heard all the arguments so don't bother. I won't condemn you for not celebrating it and don't care what you think about the fact that I do. I am pleased that the Christians in the Church of Christ that I know have lightened up on the issue and no longer miss the camel while straining gnats. Well........most anyway. There was one couple at our church who left a few years ago because Christmas songs were sung the Sunday before Christmas. They are good people and personal friends. In fact I was even at the hospital with Chuck before and after his open heart surgery sometime back. I love and respect them even though we have a difference in beliefs. No big deal. They are fine with Christmas songs in the summer but not in December. I asked them if they would be fine if they were also sung in June and they said no to December because the church is not to celebrate Christmas period. Other than Chuck and his wife I do not know anyone in the church with problems over Christmas except some of my new friends at this website. At our church we even have a Christmas party the first Saturday night in December and it is a good time of fellowship for the old and young alike.

BTW D.C.........this is at least the second time you have been accusatory of me. Interesting. Just because I am exposing and refuting Dr. Crump's messages does not mean I have spite for him. I admit I have been blunt at times happy.gif but that is to correct rebuke and even exhort him. This might be the pot calling the kettle black? What I mean is and I have said this in reply to you pointing a finger at me before - you might know about spite since you have evidently had it for the Madison Church of Christ for many years. There is nothing to argue or prove. The vigilant unloving spirit is evident throughout this website you are a part of or even the founder I don't know. But you can deny it and say it is all in love and goodwill if it makes you sleep better at night. I am at peace with you and all men. I will continue to be a personal accountability partner for Dr. Crump until I see it is no longer needed due to a change in behavior on this website toward a younger Dave and all people with whom he corresponds. It is fine for him to disagree with other humans but not in disrespectful, rude and sometimes hateful remarks.

Fred Whaley

"If you are in the parking lot and have still not quit arguing with the people on the porch, you haven't left the Church of Christ yet."

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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