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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: Christians Celebrating Christmas, etc.

December 28 2010, 3:31 PM 

Using words such as "puke," "spiritual puke," "buzzard," "panzy" (Fred's spelling), "chump," and "Chrump" (combining chump with Crump) are hardly words to "exhort" anyone. They are words of hate and further imply spitefulness, ridicule, and sarcasm. They are by no means Christian words; hence, those who persistently use them are not of one mind with Christ.

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Christians Celebrating Christmas, etc.

December 27 2010, 3:26 PM 


We certainly can sing, "Joy to the world, the Savior reigns ... born to give them second birth ... Christ the Savior is born...." Actually, "conservtive" churches of Christ would sing these songs throughout the year -- NOT JUST in December. And the more important message than the physical birth of Christ is to proclaim to the world that He came to earth with the mission to be the Redeemer. Without that message associated with the physical birth, the "Christmas" observance is simply a man-made religious festivity.

The message must be that Christ came to earth to become the Savior of mankind. BUT NOW, we are in this situation -- the world has come to celebrate the birth of Jesus on December 25. What do we do then? We continue to proclaim the message THROUGHOUT THE YEAR -- that Christ was born with a mission. And this has been the message of "conservative" churches all along. In my earlier post, I posed a number of questions waiting for answers. I even mentioned the following:
7. Should preachers, without making it a religious festival, take the opportunity to preach the birth of Christ and emphasize why He came to earth and God's plan of redemption?
I notice that your list is comprised of different topics besides the "observance of Christmas." But I get the point. [Hopefully, you mentioned "tithing" -- not as a New Testament Christian's requirement, but as a "mistaken" command for the Christian to obey.]

Firstly, we must distinguish the individual Christian's responsibilities from the local church's (or the congregation's) responsibilities. Let me stress that when it comes to the local church, unless commands and examples are specified in Scripture or implications are scriptural, the elders are responsible for making the right or wrong decisions over discretionary matters. They (the elders) should not mislead the congregation.

Secondly, we must understand that grace is God's part, as well as His love and mercy:

(1) The sinner is converted to Christ by God's grace because he has believed, repented and put on Christ in baptism in order to have his sins forgiven.

(2) The Christian (a member of God's church) is still under God's grace. Does he "continue in sin that grace may abound"? No. Does he still sin? Yes. But: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (I John 1:9). Yes, God's grace is still there, but does grace automatically "cover" sin without confession? No.

Thirdly, there is still that human nature in the Christian. We still sin. And a confessed sin can be forgiven. Man's salvation is an ongoing process -- contrary to the man-made doctrine of "once saved, always saved." The Christian's salvation is not in jeopardy so long as he remains faithful. The Christian is admonished to remain faithful to the end in order to receive the crown of life as promised. Faith without works is DEAD (James 2). The Christian is to maintain good works. God's judgment is inevitable and righteous, and "there is no respect of persons with God" -- He "will render to every man according to his DEEDS [plural]" (Romans 2:1-8).

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(no login)

Yup! Yup!

December 27 2010, 8:39 PM 

Donnie asked...."How did you come up with: "Yes, we, as Christians, OBSERVE the BIRTH, death, burial and resurrection of our Lord and King.....everyday"? Without including His suffering? Observe His birth? I gather from that assertion that you are in favor of "celebrating" Jesus' birthday everyday of the year. Do you do it?"

The answer don't need one.

Because you can't handle the Truth!!!
When You surmise that one doesn't observe the suffering along with the birth, you really aren't looking for the Truth.
All followers of Christ observe all things of our Lord.....death, burial, and resurrection.
Now ask me another dead end question like where does the birth of Christ fit in with the death, burial, and resurrection.

And you wonder why hardly no one ever posts here.......

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)


December 27 2010, 10:37 PM 

I love Christmas: it is the only time I get to be an actor in the Survivor's Show.

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: xmas

December 28 2010, 12:50 AM 

I love Christmas. It's also the only time of the year that I can be an actor ["actor" means "pretender"]. Since I've come to learn about the history of the pagan "Christ's Mass," I can now PRETEND that the observance of the birth of Christ on Christmas Day (December 25) has nothing to do at all with:

  • Attis (birth on Dec. 25), son of the Virgin Nana, of the Roman pagan religion;
  • Dionysus (birth on Dec. 25), savior-god of the Greek pagan religion;
  • Osiris (birth on Dec. 25), savior-god of the Egyptian pagan religion;
  • Mithra (birth on Dec. 25), savior born of a virgin, of the Persian pagan religion;
  • Saturnalia, the Festival of Saturn (Dec. 17-23,25), of the Babylonians;
  • The Roman Catholic Church tradition of the perpetual virginity of Mary, "the Mother of God."

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(no login)

Wake Up!!!

December 28 2010, 1:16 PM 

Donnie, do you observe the birth of Attis or Dionysus or Osiris or Mithra?

Do you see the illogical reasoning of your statement?

There are Christians who do not observe it as a pagan ritual, but an observance of the birth of Jesus.
A superb analogy here.....The apostles did not sing four part harmony nor do we have knowledge that they used instruments to play along with their singing, yet we use both to Glorify God today.
Christians have changed the pagan ritual of Christmas away from worshiping any other gods or beings, except that of our Savior Jesus. Christians glorify our God TODAY with Christmas as an observance of Christ's birthday. Both are CHANGED, but yet both still Glorify our God and are still in line with the Scriptures.

What is wonderful.....we as Christians DO celebrate the birth of Christ daily. December 25th is a proclamation to the world of His Wonderful Existence. It is not only a national proclamation, but a worldwide one.

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)

Re: Yup! Yup!

December 28 2010, 9:50 AM 

The New Testament provides an account of Jesus' birth, death, burial, and resurrection. Yet the New Testament goes one step further by explicitly telling us to commemorate or remember Jesus through His death:

"And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake [it], and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup [is] the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you" (Luke 22:19-20 KJV).

"For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come" (1 Cor. 11:26 KJV).

I don't recall the New Testament explicitly telling us to commemorate or remember Jesus through His birth, and certainly not with elaborate pageants, drunken parties, decorating trees (a custom of the pagans), and spending millions of dollars to give truckloads of gifts to emulate the Wise Men.

The only way man can "justify" celebrating Christmas (literally "Christ's Mass" from the Roman Catholics) is by using the excuse of "God didn't say not to," which is the same man-made excuse for "justifying" instrumental music in Christian worship. BTW, "God didn't say not to" is NOT found anywhere in the New Testament. Thus, the holiday called Christmas is strictly man-contrived.

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

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Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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