Place your banner ad here.          See all banner ads

|| || About || Links Library || Help Warn Others ||
|| Madison Church of Christ || Richland Hills Church of Christ || Hillcrest Church of Christ || More Churches || Sunday School in Exile ||

Where is my NewThisWeek Email subscription?Click Here

Place your text ad here.           See all text ads

  << Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Index  
(no login)

In Love...

February 25 2009, 6:45 PM 

This is the original Stephen who posted here. I did not write the last post though it was in my name. I've been away from this site for awhile now. I'm going to be as honest and graceful as I can be.

This makes me sick. All of you HATE EACH OTHER!!! Why?!? We all agree that Jesus died on a cross and rose again for the forgiveness of our sins...that makes us BROTHERS!!! We should LOVE each other!!! I can't believe we are arguing about something as UNIMPORTANT as the use of musical instruments in worship. Don't any of you realize how meaningless this debate is?! I play guitar and praise Jesus...if I didn't I would still praise and love Jesus!!! We all believe in Jesus that is all that matters! Ken, you probably think I'm a hypocrite and apostate. I'm your brother. That we would think anything like that about a brother in Christ is wrong and evil! (God, forgive me if I have failed in this also.) I love all of you but I'm burning with anger at the error of your ways. You represent the name of Jesus poorly.

"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing." -1st Corinthians 13:1-3

Don't you see?!? Where is the LOVE?! Love is EVERYTHING! All of you are NOTHING! I fear for you, brothers, because you have lost your love. You pretend to know your Bible. You pretend to know its history, its language, and its meaning. Yet you miss its greatest message. Love the Lord your God and love your neighbor. You are so absorbed in your flawed scholarship that you miss everything that is truly important.

Musical instruments don't matter. Love matters. Jesus matters.

I hope and pray that someday God will move and this will grasp your hearts. I beg you to abandon this hatred and meaningless debate. I beg you to respect all forms of worshiping our God even if you don't fully agree with them. Praise God the way you feel led and don't judge those He has led to do differently.

Praise God from whom all blessings flow.
Praise Him all creatures here below.
Praise Him above, ye heavenly host.
Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Amen!

In His Love,

 Respond to this message   
(no login)

Stephen is correct

February 26 2009, 7:41 AM 


I agree completely with your post. It is easy to let passion get in the way of following Christ.

I hope you noticed that that discussion the last day or two was not about instrumental music, but was instead about whether we can trust that a Psalm is inspired of God or is not inspired of God. I believe all of the Psalms were God-breathed, as Paul assured Timothy.

God bless you and your thoughts

 Respond to this message   
(no login)

Thank You

February 26 2009, 7:44 PM 

Thank you for your gracious response. You're right that we really are often distracted from what it means to live like Jesus. I also completely agree that all Scripture is God breathed, amen! There is definitely value in loving Christian conversation, even if it is in disagreement. If you choose to pursue discussions with Ken, even if they are fruitless, I pray that you do so in a loving and gracious way. Ultimately I just feel sorry for Ken. It depresses me when I see people who claim to love God but fail so miserably in loving people. I'm glad that there are Christians who genuinely love God AND people. Love is not all about just telling the cold hard truth as you perceive it. Love is much more and much deeper than that. The life of Jesus as told in the Bible testifies to this truth.

In His Love,

 Respond to this message   
Ken Sublett
(no login)

Re: A NEW CYCLE: take the Alan Challenge

February 26 2009, 12:19 PM 

We figured that RAY was not shining too well: HE forgot that HE brought up the inspired Psalm issue: I told him the truth: it is NOT inspired as a PATTERNISM for the synagogue at that time OR the Church of Christ which is a school of the Bible--Only. You probably have never seen one of those.

Little Stevie brought up some proof texts without having ever read the context: I spent considerable time trying to inform him and wrote the BIBLICAL CONTEXT and what all literate disciples know. The usual PATTERNISM is that he falls into the hand wringing "love thingie" when love means TELLING THE TRUTH. Not to worry: all of those who will ever grasp the Bible as it is written will probably fit on an old Joy Bus. That is PROPHESIED. My job and joy is to research and post and I cover more people and more countries than all of the mega-mouth, mega-music churches put together.

1 Chron 25:1 MOREOVER David and the Commanders of the Army separated to the service of the sons of Asaph, and of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who should prophesy with harps, with psalteries, and with cymbals: and the number of the workmen according to their service was:

Anyone who has ever read the Bible knows that Israel fell from grace in two stages.

First, after they rose up to play in musical idolatry at Mount Sinai God turned them over to worship the starry host. They were conditionally sentenced to return to Babylon unless they repented.

When the elders fired God and demanded a king God knew that they wanted to worship like the nations: he granted their prayer after warning that the kings and clergy would enslave them. All of the prophets call them robbers and parasites and blame the Levites for their fall from grace.

Because the "noise makers" were under the KING and COMMANDERS of the army it is hard to see how a preacher could use that as proof text to literally "make war" on the flock he is sworn to defend. No scholar can fail to grasp that Psalms were primarily warriors panic songs for making war and never composed for "congregational singing with instrumental accompaniment."

Payne insists that the Hebrew of 1 Chronicles 25:1 unambiguously identifies these leaders as military commanders, an interpretation favoured by several Bible translations. (Payne, p 423-4; NASB, NIV, NKJV, NRSV, Jerusalem Bible) If military commanders had a particular interest in the appointment of musicians, it suggests a strong link between music and warfare


"The Hithpa'el of nb', in the ancient texts, refers to ecstasy and delirium rather than to the emission of a 'prophecy'." (de Vaux, Roland, The Bible and the Ancient Near East, p. 243 Doubleday

For the simple people we will post David's PRAISE WORD again which gives rise for the MEANING of LUCIFER.
[linked image] [linked image]


"Maniac inspirations, the violent possession which threw sibyls and priestesses into contortions--the foaming lip and streaming hair and glazed or glaring eyes-- have no place in the self-controlling dignity of Christian inspiration. Even Jewish prophets, in the paroxysm of emotion, might lie naked on the ground and rave (1 Sam. xix. 24); but the genuine inspiration in Christian ages never obliterates the self-consciousness or overpowers the reason. It abhors the hysteria and stimulation and frenzy which have sometimes disgraced revivalism and filled lunatic asylums." (Pulpit Commentary, 1 Cor., p. 460).

This is EXACTLY what happens when people begin to sing, clap, sway or even dance and do the GOOSE CLAP under a deliberatel MIND CONTROLLER whom YOU pay like a dope.

If you can grasp that the musical idolatry at Mount Sinai was Egyptian worship and God TURNED THEM BACK to that when they spat in His face at Mount Sinai. David as a national (Goyim) or Gentile king

The Latin reads: Prophe-ta I. a foreteller, SOOTHSAYER prophet... oraculorumque interpretes, sacerdotes Aegyptiorum, quos prophetas vocant, Aegyptius, propheta primarius

Prophêt-ês A. one who speaks for a god and interprets his will to man, Dios p. interpreter, expounder of the will of Zeus, 2. title of official keepers of the oracle at Branchidae, b. in Egyptian temples, member of the highest order of the clergy, priest, 3. interpreter, expounder of the utterances of the mantis [Mad Women Corinth]

The Mad Woman at Corinth and those who spoke gibberish at Delphi (the Pythian spirit Paul cast our) responded to a question like a "sealed envelope" the evangelist uses. The prophet or priest interpreted the gibbering to fit the unsealed question. The Musician then put it into verse for the "worshiper."

Mantis diviner, seer, prophet Pythian priestess, 3. Adj., toude manteôs chorou [round dance] of this prophetic band, dub. in S.Fr.113. II. a kind of grasshopper, the praying mantis, Mantis religiosa, Theoc.10.18, Dsc.Eup.1.149.


Service is: H5656 abodah abodâh ab-o-daw', ab-o-daw' From H5647 ; work of any kind:act, bondage, + bondservant, effect, labour, ministering (-try), office, service (-ile, -itude), tillage, use, work, X wrought.

H5647 Abad aw-bad A primitive root; to work (in any sense); by implication to serve, till, (causatively) enslave, etc.: X be, keep in bondage, be bondmen, bond-service, compel

Worship is:
H10 Abaddoh ab-ad-do' The same as H9 , miswritten for H11 ; a perishing:destruction.
The Levitical Warrior Musicians were engaged in STAR WORSHIP says the Jewish Encycloped and Apollo or Apollyon is the SUN god and the Muses are his dirty musicians who are also adulterers.

Because the kings carried out the captivity and death sentence imposed BECAUSE of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai, this is a MOTIF or PATTERNISM which is being repeated right now with the Mother of Harlots

H6 abad aw-bad' A primitive root; properly to wander away, that is lose oneself; by implication to perish (causatively, destroy)
H11 abaddon ab-ad-done Intensively from H6 ; abstractly a perishing; concretely Hades:--destruction.

The pagan worshipers of Dionysus (the new wineskinners) were always devoted to HADES and infact hung around what they thought of the "gates of hell." They were called:

Bakche A .Bacchante,
Bakche Haidou frantic handmaid of Hades, E.Hec.1077; b. nekuôn Id.Ph.1489 (lyr.).

........Haides I. Hades or Pluto (cf. Plouton), the god of the nether world, son of Kronus and Rhea, brother to Zeus,

Mainas mainas , ados, he, ( [mainomai] ) A. raving, frantic, lussa

The Corybantes were priests of Cybele or Rhea [ZOE], mother of Zeus and other Olympian gods, and she was worshipped with wild music and frenzied dancing which, like the bacchic revels or orgies of women in honor of Dionysus, carried away the participants despite and beyond themselves. Cf. Eurip. Bacchae.

This is the Babylon MOTHER OF HARLOTS in Revelation 17 who USES "lusted after fruits" as speakers, singers and instrument players: John calls them SORCERERS.


Korinthios , a, on, Corinthian, Hdt., etc.; K. korê courtesan, Pl.R. 404d; hetairai K. Ar.Pl.149; oinos K. Alex.290; K. kadoi Corinthian fashion, oikos (house, Temple, church) K. estegasmenos J.AJ8.5.2 :-- fem. Korinthias , ados, hê, St.Byz.:--also Korinthiakos , ê, on, X.HG6.2.9; K. gluphai Ph.1.666 : Korinthikos , AP6.40 (Maced.). B. Kore.. the Daughter (of Demeter), name under which Persephone (Proserpine) was worshipped in Attica

Hetaira 1. a companion, Il.; phorminx, hên daiti (feast) theoi (god) poiêsan (make) hetairen Od.; penia sphin hetaira Theocr. 2. opposite to a lawful wife, a concubine, a courtesan, Hdt., attic

And what of the Corinthian whores? [150] If a poor man offers them proposals, they do not listen; but if it be a rich one, instantly they turn their arses to him.
Cario It's the same with the lads; they care not for love, to them money means everything.

And the "church mad women" would be marked by music (prophesying 1 Cor 11:5) and their harp belonged to Apollo, Abaddon or the Apollyon who is the having-fallen STAR invading your church.

Phorminx 1 the phorminx, a kind of lyre or harp, the oldest stringed instrument of the Greeks, esp. as the instrument of Apollo, Hom.; with seven strings (after Terpander's time), Pind. [Commonly referred to pherô, as if it were the portable lyre: better perh. from Root .phrem, Lat. fremo, to sound.]

This is the Apollo John used as the PATTERNISM for the Mother of Harlots where Abaddon or Apollyon unleashed the locusts with deadly scorpion stingers who were the MUSES known to any literte Greek. That is why the singers and musicians are call SORCERERS who TAKE PEOPLE CAPTIVE.

1 Chron 25:2 Of the sons of Asaph; Zaccur, and Joseph, and Nethaniah, and Asarelah, the sons of Asaph under the hands of Asaph, which prophesied according to the order of the king.

There are no IDLE WORDS in the Bible and that is why "Gitting up a sermon" out of scraps of the Bible is a SIGN or MARK. If we look at ASAPH for instance: why would you want an ASAP AS "WORSHIP LEADER."

H623 Asaph aw-sawf From H622 ; collector; Asaph, the name of three Israelites, and of the family of the first:--Asaph.

H622 Asaph aw-saf A primitive root; to gather for any purpose; hence to receive, take away, that is, remove (destroy, leave behind, put up, restore, etc.):--assemble, bring, consume, destroy, fetch, gather (in, together, up again), X generally, get (him), lose, put all together, receive, recover [another from leprosy], (be) rereward, X surely, take (away, into, up), X utterly, withdraw.

Music has always been used to VALIDATE the authority of the "king set over us" in the changeling churches who lie about God and to God. ASAPH points you to ABAD or ABBADOWN which was the SERVICE performed by ancient and modern false people very easily TAKING YOU CAPTIVE if you listen to their WITCHCRAFT or as John says, SORCERY.

Maybe we should remember that David was the KING and the TEMPLE was the Capital of a Goyim or gentile nation. The animal sacrifices were NATIONAL and when the slaughter of INNOCENT LAMBS (as types of God) began, the loud NOISE was a signal that all CIVILIANS be outside of the WALLS--far removed from the later temple court.

Their RELIGION was Sabazianism and many of the names point directly to DIONYSUS worship which the Israelites brought from Egypt and NEVER CEASED to observe on a national basis.

Kings do not prescribe SPIRITUAL worship which took place OUTSIDE the gates where they held synagogue--even in the wilderness--to REST, read and rehearse the Word. Loud trumpets could CALL ASSEMBLY but not the ALARM which included "making a joyful noise before the Lord" which was every nations' PANIC music.

 Respond to this message   
(no login)

Re: A NEW CYCLE: take the Alan Challenge

March 2 2009, 6:54 PM 

"A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another."
-John 13:34-35

The words of Jesus. A proof text with all the context.

In His Love.

 Respond to this message   
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Who really uses musical instruments?

March 4 2009, 11:53 AM 

The following is a response to a different [?] Stephen in another thread (cf. More Churches: Bammel Church of Christ). It is being re-posted here in response to those who believe that Rev. 18, Psalm 57 and Psalm 150, etc., support the notion as to what should occur when a group of New Testament Christians assembles.

Who really uses musical instruments? March 4 2009, 12:35 AM


It is interesting to note that you mentioned Obama, Democrat, Republican, a Bible version and Ebay, etc., because I didn't. But that's good. I think you know the comparisons and contrasts.

Overall, I really like Ken Sublett's appropriate description of these people as not being "liberals: they are ignorant liars taking captive and stealing...." -- the same people who have come up with the term "legalism" whenever the pure, unadulterated gospel of Christ is taught and preached.

I have been doing a search for the words, or something similar to, "musical instruments" and they're nowhere to be found in the New Testament. No examples of the musical machines participating in the assembly of the New Testament saints -- wonder why?

Wait ... I've heard about Psalm 150. Of course, we know that the Christian saints are to "teach and admonish one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs." Oh ... a psalm ... like a religious poem in singable format? So, I get to compare:

(1) Psalm 23: Song Title: "The Lord's My Shepherd" -- There are different tunes to this song, but I think we're all familiar with Psalm 23. So, we sing it as "a psalm."

(2) Psalm 150: Has someone written the music to this "favorite psalm" of the subversive change agents in the brotherhood? [Well, it's really not a psalm -- it's just a chapter in the book of Psalms.]

The chapter is simply a list of musical instruments. Here it is: Praise him...

-- with the sound of the trumpet
-- with the psaltery
-- with the harp
-- with the timbrel and
-- dance [may not be an instrument]
-- with stringed instruments
-- with organs
-- upon the loud cymbals
-- upon the high sounding cymbals

Right!!! They're the lyrics. Create music, anyone? Which of these instruments is your favorite? Like them all? Use them all?

Wait ... I've heard about II Chronicles 29. Sorry, due to lack of time, I'm going to [must] list other items besides musical instruments. We don't want to miss any item, do we?

-- seven bullocks
-- seven rams
-- seven lambs
-- seven he goats
-- for a sin offering
-- the priests the sons of Aaron to offer them on the altar
-- killed the bullocks
-- the priests received the blood
-- sprinkled it on the altar
-- killed the rams
-- sprinkled the blood upon the altar
-- killed also the lambs
-- sprinkled the blood upon the altar
-- the he goats for the sin offering: the priests killed them
-- burnt offering
-- set the Levites with cymbals
-- psalteries
-- harps, according to the commandment of David
-- the Levites stood with the instruments of David
-- the priests with the trumpets
-- trumpets
-- the instruments ordained by David king of Israel
-- the singers sang
-- the trumpeters sounded
-- all this continued until the burnt offering was finished.

[32] And the number of the burnt offerings, which the congregation brought, was threescore and ten bullocks, an hundred rams, and two hundred lambs: all these were for a burnt offering to the LORD.

[33] And the consecrated things were six hundred oxen and three thousand sheep.

[34] But the priests were too few, so that they could not flay all the burnt offerings: wherefore their brethren the Levites did help them, till the work was ended, and until the other priests had sanctified themselves: for the Levites were more upright in heart to sanctify themselves than the priests.

[35] And also the burnt offerings were in abundance,with the fat of the peace offerings, and the drink offerings for every burnt offering. So the service of the house of the LORD was set in order.

[36] And Hezekiah rejoiced, and all the people, that God had prepared the people: for the thing was done suddenly.

Would anyone like to participate in that kind of an assembly?

 Respond to this message   
Ken Sublett
(no login)

Re: Who really uses musical instruments?

March 4 2009, 2:56 PM 

At the FIRST ADVENT almost none of the CLERGY and RELIGIOUS PROFITEERS had a remote clue about Jesus: that is because they had proven that they were a VIPER GENERATION working as hard as they could to convert people to SATAN. As a result Jesus spoke to them in PARABLES specificially to keep the INSTITUTES running full force until the Baptized believers were REMOVED and the CHAFF blown away by a WIND (SPIRIT) to be separated to be BURNED UP.

There is no reason to believe that the INSTITUTES will not be involved in LYING WONDERS (the theatrical arts and crafts) and the people will just be happy-clappy not knowing that the LOCUSTS (Muses) had been turned loose to PUNISH where even nitwitties at that time understood that MUSIC is "setting lies to melodies to deceive the simple" and damage the soul of those who are not FIT for a SPIRIT DIMENSION.

When neither liberal nor conservative but the VIPERS John and Jesus warned about and the CROOKED RACE from which we are to save ourselves and NOT enable, appeal to the Old Testament (a shadow meaning a ghost or a covenant with death) the are ANTI-Christian prostitutes John called SORCERERS who had deceived the whole world.

It should not be surprising that neither Stephen nor the massed multitudes taken captive by that which prophecy and Paul warn against CANNOT grasp the horrors which they defend because music DOES by definition MARK the mind and one definition of the BEAST is females/effeminates "singing a NEW STYLE OF SONG." Like a Hitler this is to do a permant MIND WARP from which one cannot recover because they are not capable of understanding dlear text.

Acts 7:43 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, f\
......figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.
Acts 7:43 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch,
......and the star of your god Remphan,
......figures which ye made to worship them:
......and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.
Acts 7:44 Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, he had appointed, speaking unto Moses,
......that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen.
Acts 7:45 Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles,
......whom God drave out before the face of our fathers,
......unto the days of David;
Acts 7:46 Who found favour before God,
and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob.
Acts 7:47 But Solomon built him an house.
Acts 7:48 Howbeit the most High
......dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,

Now, you SHOULD expect that a preacher could grasp that and they PROBABLY DO even as Judas had a hidden understanding that he was Satan's agent--the son of perdition.

......Because they preach that Stephen MUST have been a liar, and the captives APPLAUD, you have to grasp that God has sent them a strong delusion using a STRONG DELUDER to force them to believe a lie and be damned BECAUSE they were not OF TRUTH.


Peter made it certain that those who DO NOT TEACH THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN is a MARK of a false teacher. Paul often proved that the pagan rituals involving music would be a MARK and one definition is "Zoe as the beast and female instructing principle" and another MARK is a "new style praise song." Plato warned that this was the MARK of those intending to change the laws.


When Paul demanded that the women be SILENT the purpose was "submission" which speaks of a STUDENT being SILENT while the TUTOR does the teaching. Because from the church in the wlderness to the church defined and practiced in the Bible and for several centuries is as synagogue or SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE there simple are no roles for rhetoric, ritual prayer, singing, playing instruments or any performing role.

Even in decent civil society the plague was self-seeking women believing in a matriarchal goddess (a holy whore), women and effeminate males (Paul calls them dogs or wolves) would be the only person believing that their body rituals called forth the gifts of the goddess even as their sexual powers brought children. One of the things always needing silencing when teaching was involved was to:


[A] SilenceMelos B. esp. musical member, phrase: hence, song, strain, meter, 2. music to which a song is set, tune, 3. melody of an instrument, phorminx d'au phthengoith' hieron

[B] Silence Phorminx Pthengoma Hieron
Phorminx a lyre especially the instrument of Apollo, Apollon

Homer Iliad 1.Then he poured wine for all the other gods from left to right, drawing forth sweet nectar from the bowl. And unquenchable laughter arose among the blessed gods, as they saw Hephaestus puffing through the palace. [600] Thus the whole day long till the setting of the sun they feasted, nor did their heart lack anything of the equal feast, nor of the beauteous lyre, that Apollo held, nor yet of the Muses, who sang, replying one to the other with sweet voices. But when the bright light of the sun was set, [605] they went each to his own house to take their rest, where for each one a palace had been built with cunning skill by the famedHephaestus, the limping god; and Zeus the Olympian, lord of the lightning, went to his couch, where of old he took his rest, whenever sweet sleep came upon him. [610] There went he up and slept, and beside him lay Hera of the golden throne.

The HOLY PROSTITUTES plagued Israel from beginning to the end because God had abandoned them to that practice .

[C] Silence Phthengomai, Od.10.228, of inanimate things, of a door, creak of thunder; of trumpets, of the flute, of the lyre, [of a melody claimed to be from god using Apollo's lyre] of an earthen pot, whether it rings sound or cracked, Pl.Tht.179d; ph. to clap with the hands, III. c. acc. pers., sing, or celebrate one aloud , Pi.O.1.36;

[D] Silence the temple prostitutes: Hieros I. illed with or manifesting divine power, supernatural, II. of divine things, holy, holy war, Nomos law of sacrifice Hierodoulos A temple slave, Nethinim, Especially of temple courtesans [PROSTITUTES] at Corinth and elsewhere and also of men.


Nethinims Probably "Gibeonites who tricked Joshua into sparing them (cf. Josh. 9). [the wineskin ploy] When their ruse was discovered it was decreed (Josh. 9:27) that they serve as hewers of wood and drawers of water for the community and the altar. Ezra 8:20 mentions the Nethinim whom David and his officials had set apart to attend the Levites...At Ugarit there was a class of cultic servitors called ytnm, one of whom has a name that appears in the list in Ezra 2:45-46. It is therefore possible that the Nethinim were an international guild skilled in cultic arts who attached themselves to Israel in an early period. Similar also to the Nethinim in function are the shirku, known from Neo-Babylonian documents.

Josephus knew that the Levites had destroyed Israel the first time and WERE READY to do it again:

6. Now as many of the Levites, (26) which is a tribe of ours, as were singers of hymns, persuaded the king to assemble a sanhedrim, and to give them leave to wear linen garments, as well as the priests

for they said thatthis would be a work worthy the times of his government, that he might have a memorial of such a novelty, as being his doing.

Nor did they fail of obtaining their desire; for the king, with the suffrages of those that came into the sanhedrim, granted the singers of hymns this privilege, that they might lay aside their former garments,

and wear such a linen one as they desired; and as a part of this tribe ministered in the temple,
he also permitted them to learn those hymns as they had besought him for.

Now all this was contrary to the laws of our country, which, whenever they have been transgressed, we have never been able to avoid the punishment of such transgressions.

When Jesus had graound the SOP, used only once, it had the same meaning as PSALLO.

The Judas Bag was "for carrying the mouthpieces of wind instruments" because Psalm 41 prophesied that Judas would try to triumph over Jesus. This was the same MUSICAL REJOICING which was outlawed for the Qahal, synagogue or church in the wilderness.

Maybe the wineskinner singers, betraying Jesus and acting as musicians in the holy place is the MARK and SOUND to stay awake and keep yur clothes with you.

 Respond to this message   
(no login)

Re: Who really uses musical instruments?

March 4 2009, 7:59 PM 

I'm not the Stephen from the other thread Donnie. I post just to remind people here about the importance of loving each other as they debate. I've expressed on this thread earlier how I often find this site very sickening because all that happens is hateful arguments over insignificant issues. The use of musical instruments in worship is an insignificant issue in the big picture of what it means for us to be Christians. I want to encourage people to genuinely love one another. Of course Ken mocks me for my "love thingie" as he calls it. I'm really saddened because he just doesn't understand. The Bible may not be crystal clear about musical instruments but it's perfectly clear about loving God and people.

In His Love,

 Respond to this message   
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Who really uses musical instruments?

March 5 2009, 1:48 AM 


Your posts are appreciated, and the way you've expressed your thoughts with kindness.

I really don't think you've judged this site in its entirety fairly. Perhaps, you just haven't fully grasped the extent of how the site came into being in the first place or how that the brotherhood had/has been under siege at the time when certain congregations were being taken over completely or partially, not excluding Madison itself. Hopefully, the efforts of change agents subverting, diverting and dividing once-peaceful congregations have been thwarted because of/by insightful and firm leaders, publications and websites in our midst.

I agree with you on the subject of brotherhly love--and perhaps there should be more threads initiated that cover subject matters as love, brotherly love, the conversion process, God's grace (bountiful, used or abused), etc. But, then, this is a religious forum where issues that confront the present-day New Testament church are being discussed and debated. Having said that, I cannot help but admire Ken Sublett for the extensive study and research he has done. To me he is incomparable. Frankly, I cannot think of another individual in this world, or a group of professors and researchers combined, that can surpass his accumulated wealth of information. His research efforts really prove what he knows the Scripture teaches regarding idolatry, musical idolatry, pagan music, pagan entertainment, rites and rituals, etc.

I will have to disagree with your assessment that the use of the musical machinery in the assembly of New Testament Christians being an insignificant issue. Remember the religious census of 1906? You may be right that it is insignificant in the realm of the denominational world or Christendom as a whole. But it certainly is a big issue as/even though only 18-20 of some 18,000 congregations of the church worldwide have gone the opposite way by using IM in the assembly partly or wholly, i.e., toward the direction of the Christian Church or the Community Church.

Well, I am fully convinced that the New Testament is replete with instructions for Christian living, as well as the simplicity of the nature of the gathering of the saints--which should center upon studying God's truth, commemorating the Lord's sacrifice and death on the cross, and edifying, teaching and admonishing one another. Should we be surprised that there was no such thing as musical programming when the first century Christians assembled?

I believe that love or brotherly love encompasses more than just kind words by one being spoken to another. The Scripture teaches that if we love Him that we keep His commandments. Also, I do not believe that there is no love in someone's part just because he delivers the painful truth and is unwilling to compromise the truth.

Again, thanks for posting.

 Respond to this message   
< Previous Page 1 2 3 Next >
  << Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Index  
Place your text ad here.           See all text ads

This web site is not part of or approved by any Church!

...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

Click Here......The Book is Available Now FREE

Place your banner ad here.           See all banner ads ...About ...Links Library ...Sunday School in Exile ...Help Warn Others

FastCounter by bCentral

CM Visit Counter as of 6/25/2015

Site Visits Since 6/30/2015
page counter