Alan wrote: Since Donnie and Joe know so much more regarding the doctrine of Christ than anyone else, I was just wondering if they could tell exactly what verses that Jesus spoke in regards to not having instrumental music.
Please be specific. I want to be able to open a KJV, that this site promotes as the only reliable translation, and read where Jesus says, "Do not use instrumental music in your worship service." I would also like to read where he says, "You are to have a song, a prayer, three more songs, communion, another song, the sermon, and and invitation song."
This site is just so knowledgable, I know you can find it.
Until then.....
Alan, it is time to recycle some BASICS as in summer training camp: lets begin: "THIS is a baseball." It is well documented in the Bible and especially the Greek literature that people use music as SORCERY and so says John in Revelation 18). The only LEGALISM word I can find is the Greek NOMOS: that speaks of HUMAN MADE laws which are made to CHARM or enchant the citizens into submission so that no one will dare question the LAW MAKERS. If you say that THERE IS NOTHING repudiating instruments in the Bible and nothing commanding them then it is CERTAIN that the very late use of music in the "church" is a NOMOS which usually applied to Apollo (Abaddon, Apollon" and his MUSES (Rev 18) who were dirty adulteresses.
Maybe if you grasped that it was the Spirit of Christ who commanded the Holy Convocation for the Qahal, synagogue or church in the wilderness. It was INCLUSIVE of Rest, reading and rehearsing the Word. They were restricted to their own precincts to prevent them from attending the Seventh day paganism which originated in Babylon along with the tithe. It was EXCLUSIVE of vocal or instrumental rejoicing. That command was never rescinded and never violated by the SPIRITUAL THREAD off Israel who were QUARANTINED from the sacrificial or exorcism noise (never music) when they warriors "made the lambs dumb before the slaughter.
I need to begin there, but here is a bit of information and REMEMBER that when you say that Jesus didn't CONDEMN the use of instruments you are gambling your soul on people who cannot DEFINE words. You have the duty to define words before you DELIBERATELY sow discord and offend many. If you cannot FIND the clear evidence then I submit that you have not yet become a disciple with A holy spirit or A good conscience, consciousness or a co-perception of the Word
You will remember that Jesus spoke to the false Jews in parables by which truth had been hidden from the foundation of the world. The easiest way to hide the truth in plain sight is to "translate" the Bible "using different words for a pleasing variety" even says the KJV people. This makes it easy to further pervert or corrupt the word meaning "selling learning at retail" by defining words and context to make it POWERFUL in trying to manipulate people's minds: this is called witchcraft or sorcery by John speaking of speakers, singers and instrument players who refuse to "sing that which is written" with one mind and one mouth and to "teach that which has been taught." It is a plot by God who needs no wimpy burgers.
John refused to baptize the dominant clergy class and called them a generation or RACE of vipers. During the curse of the sacrificial system the "instruments" of the warrior classes bearing Canaanite guild names were sounded (not music) during the burning of the GOATS which were sacrificed to prevent sacrificing TO THE GOATS defined in Greek as the CAPELLA from which we get the sad tragedy songs by the a capellas.
Peter told the people to SAVE YOURSELVES from this CROOKED RACE. Crooked is opposite to the orthodox: MYTHS always written by poets and musicians who could never write truth.
Skolios A. curved, bent (opposite to orthos, euthus) muthos
III. skolion, to, intestine, splanchana kai nephron kai skolion
Muthos used with tragoidia, mimesis, poetes etc. Latin fabula II. In partic. (freq. and class.), a fictitious narrative, a tale, story; 1. Most freq., a dramatic poem, drama, play; tragôidia, mimęsis, poiętęs, ; muthoisin skoliois Hes.Op.194
2. fiction (opposite logos, historic truth), Pi.O.1.29 (pl.), N.7.23 (pl.), Pl.Phd.61b, Prt.320c, 324d, etc.
Don't miss the point that the VIPER GENERATION from Cain (meaning a musical note) murdered Seth:
Matt 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Matt 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Matt 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Matt 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you
........prophets, and wise men, and scribes:
........and some of them ye shall kill and crucify;
........and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues,
........and persecute them from city to city:
Matt 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth,
........from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias,
........whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Because Jesus warned about parables from the foundation of the world, don't miss the point that the Bible is the history of the Hebrew people and that they existed at the time of Cain: cain is said to be OF that wicked one and Eve was wholly seduced in a sexual sense enabled by music. More later.
Rev. 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
they claim they are Jews #2453 Ioudas - Judas; in Hebrew 3063 - Yehudah - a descendant of Judah. The paid their way into the Herodian ruling class. The Saducean priesthood during the first century were not of Aaron but consisted of four families: Boethus, Hanan, Kimchit, and Phiabi. They intermarried with the Herodians, the Royal Rulers of the State of Israel, who were, themselves Edomites (Idumeans) from the Petra region (or Edom) and descendants of Esau (or Seir, which means "shaggy, he-goat, devil"), thus the "synagogue of Satan" leaders claimed to be Jews but were Edomites appointed by the Herodian rulers under Rome; Herod Antipas, for instance, and Pontius Pilate held the same governmental position for Rome, the reason for much rivalry between them); since Esau was "red and hairy" his nickname was Edom, and he lived in Seir where Ham's descendants settled.
As such they "wore the hat of Hermes" from which the musical discorders get the new hermeneutic. You might want to see how this was music and sex as the abomination of desolation" in the Jerusalem temple: some were still active and tried to seduce Jesus shown when He called the MEN of that generation like CHILDREN which identified the "youth ministers" or chorus leaders used and abused: He consigned the pipers, singers and dancers to the marketplace where all pagan and perverted worship took place.
So we might circle back to the beginning in Genesis where the meaning of SERPENT is "a musical enchanter(ess)." The king/queen of Tyre used music to steal property and the "souls of men" and is called the "singing and harp playing prostitute." Now, only a legalist would look for a LAW OF SILENCE (invented by the musical group) which says "thou shalt not play the musical prostitute." Stinkty or slithering animals are symbols of the enemies of the Words of God.
The serpent is related to brass and the flute which is lumped with pollute and prostitute as the meaning of when "men began to CALL upon the name of the Lord."
Gen. 4:25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth:
........For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
Gen. 4:26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos:
........then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.
582. enowsh, en-oshe´; from 605; properly, a mortal (and thus differing from the more dignified 120); hence, a man in general (singly or collectively):--another, x (blood-)thirsty, certain, chap(-man); divers, fellow, x in the flower of their age, husband, (certain, mortal) man, people, person, servant, some (x of them), + stranger, those, + their trade. It is often unexpressed in the English versions, especially when used in apposition with another word . Compare 376.
605. Anash, aw-nash´; a primitive root; to be frail, feeble, or (figuratively) melancholy:--desperate(-ly wicked), incurable, sick, woeful.
It was in this "generation" that false worship began. We know that Jubal "handled" musical instruments meaning "without authority.." When men FALL from grace it is always caused or MARKED by the use of music. What better supernatural sign of false prophets? The meaning of "began to call upon the name of the Lord" was how the Israelites--given The Book of The covenant of grace, ROSE up to play in musical idolatry. This was PROFANING the sabbath which was REST FROM the pagan seventh day worship rituals marked by music to ENCHANT or TRANQUALIZE the common fodder. This word is h2490 identical to David's "praise" word which means to MAKE SELF VILE which is the root word for LUCIFER the singing and harp playing prostitute in the garden of Eden.
"
This word is used of "Lucifer being cast as profane out of Heaven" and the equivalent word when Jesus CAST OUT the musical minstrels LIKE DUNG.
This word is used interchangeably as a "melody" word and normally marked women or male prostitute who prowled around all pagan-like temples of which that in Jerusalem was identified when God "turned them over to worship the starry host."
5059. nagan, naw-gan´; a primitive root; properly, to thrum, i.e. beat a tune with the fingers; expec. to play on a stringed instrument; hence (generally), to make music:--player on instruments, sing to the stringed instruments, melody, ministrel, play(-er, -ing).
Which points to the TOUCH word used by Eve when she was seduced or enchanted by the "serpent" as the name of the Assyrian Enchanter called "the tallest tree in Eden" of which she was seduced but Adam "ate" from the midst willingly.
5060. naga, naw-gah´; a primitive root; properly, to touch, i.e. lay the hand upon (for any purpose; euphem., to lie with a woman); by implication, to reach (figuratively, to arrive, acquire); violently, to strike (punish, defeat, destroy, etc.):--beat, (x be able to) bring (down), cast, come (nigh), draw near (nigh), get up, happen, join, near, plague, reach (up), smite, strike, touch.
Adam Clark:
Verse 26. Then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.] The marginal reading is, Then began men to call themselves by the name of the Lord; which words are supposed to signify that in the time of Enos the true followers of God began to distinguish themselves, and to be distinguished by others, by the appellation of sons of God; those of the other branch of Adam's family, among whom the Divine worship was not observed, being distinguished by the name, children of men. It must not be dissembled that many eminent men have contended that ljwh huchal, which we translate began, should be rendered began profanely, or then profanation began, and from this time they date the origin of idolatry. Most of the Jewish doctors were of this opinion, and Maimonides has discussed it at some length in his Treatise on Idolatry; as this piece is curious, and gives the most probable account of the origin and progress of idolatry, I shall insert it here.
You will remember the false conclusions: Because God created musical Instruments (Bible says Satan did) it is right and proper for us to use ANYTHING that God created in our worship to him. The problem is that you worship the CREATURE and not the CREATOR. Now, see how the earliest recorded commentary uses the same imagination even when "the imagination of the human hear is only evil continually."
"In the days of Enos the sons of Adam erred with great error, and the counsel of the wise men of that age became brutish, and Enos himself was (one) of them that erred; and their error was this:
........they said, Forasmuch as God hath created these stars and spheres
........to govern the world, and set them on high, and imparted honour unto them,
........and they are ministers that minister before him;
........it is meet that men should laud, and glorify, and give them honour.
For this is the will of God, that we magnify and honour whomsoever he magnifieth and honouret; even as a king would have them honoured that stand before him, and this is the honour of the king himself. When this thing was come up into their hearts they began to build temples unto the stars, and to offer sacrifice unto them, and to laud and glorify them with words, and to worship before them, that they might in their evil opinion obtain favour of the Creator; and this was the root of idolatry, &c.
And in process of time there stood up false prophets among the sons of Adam, which said that God had commanded and said unto them, Worship such a star, or all the stars, and do sacrifice unto them thus and thus; and build a temple for it, and make an image of it, that all the people, women, and children may worship it.
........And the false prophet showed them the image
........which he had feigned out of his own heart,
........and said it was the image of such a star,
........which was made known unto him by prophecy.
And they began after this manner to make images in temples, and under trees, and on tops of mountains and hills, and assembled together and worshipped them, &c. And this thing was spread through all the world, to serve images with services different one from another, and to sacrifice unto and worship them.
........So, in process of time, the glorious and fearful name (of God)
........was forgotten out of the mouth of all living,
........and out of their knowledge, and they acknowledged him not.
And there was found no people on the earth that knew aught, save images of wood and stone, and temples of stone, which they had been trained up from their childhood to worship and serve, and to swear by their names. And the wise men that were among them, as the priests and such like, thought there was no God save the stars and spheres, for whose sake and in whose likeness they had made these images; but as for the Rock everlasting,
there was no man that acknowledged him or knew him save a few persons in the world, as Enoch, Methuselah, Noah, Sham, and Heber. And in this way did the world walk and converse till that pillar of the world, Abraham our father, was born." Maim. in Mishn, and Ainsworth in loco.
Moses was writing an inverted version of the Babylon legends used as worship where God had sentenced Israel because of musical idolatry. In the end time worship (now) the same enchanters are used by the Babylon mother of harlot: they are the same lusted after "fruits" spoken of by Amos and as speakers, singers and instrument players they are called SORCERERS. The sound of the millstone was always the way to find the GRINDERS who spread their legs and the "piping sounds" made by the grinding advertised their second occupation.
22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
23And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
Ken would have us believe music is condemned by John in Revalation because of these verses. If this is true, then John has also condemned craftsmen, grinding on grain, lighting a candle, marriage, and being a merchant.
Ken cannot speak staright from the Bible because his beliefs cannot be found in the Bible.
How much longer will Christians be deceived by Ken's confusion?
The TECHNE or craftsman includes any PROFESSIONAL arts and crafts in the Church of Christ: even the sound of the millstone is the MARK of the "grinders" who were prostitutes who plied their trade while supplying the "food" for the people. You need to back up and see that we are speaking of the Babylonian mother of harlots: ZOE is one of the names for the Mother of the gods who SEEKS worship for herself (whatever the sex). The Muses (musicians) in Revelation 18 are "dirty adulteresses" even if they only pollute the Word: John calls them sorcerers. This is the religious institution and Nashville is a city set on seven hills.
The techne is a whole study and I will post something tomorrow because the resources--not available to Greek Geeks--could fill a large book. Alexander Campbell tired of young men who wanted to be preachers but not Bible scholars: he said that preacerCRAFT was the CRAFTIEST CRAFT OF ALL. That still fits where there is no place to go to study the Bible in the context in which is is written. Nor, is there any need since most people won't tolearate a preacher who "teaches that which has been taught" including "singing that which is written."
Zech 14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.
Kennaniy (h3669) ken-ah-an-ee'; patrial from 3667; a Kenaanite or inhabitant of Kenaan; by impl. a pedlar (the Canaanites standing for their neighbors the Ishmaelites, who conducted mercantile caravans): - Canaanite, merchant, trafficker.
H3667 kenaan ken-ah'-an From H3665 ; humiliated; Kenaan, a son of Ham; also the country inhabited by him:--Canaan, merchant, traffick.
H3665 kâna kaw-nah' A primitive root; properly to bend the knee; hence to humiliate, vanquish: bring down (low), into subjection, under, humble (self), subdue.
The Abomination of Desolation in the temple was like a HERMES which was a pole with a red phallic head of hermes: it said that "we are open for business and most of the trades and arts and crafts were TECHNE.
WOE to thee that spoilest, and thou wast not spoiled; and dealest treacherously, and they dealt not treacherously with thee when thou shalt cease to spoil, thou shalt be spoiled; and when thou shalt make an end to deal treacherously, they shall deal treacherously with thee. Isa 33:1
O Lord, be gracious unto us; we have waited for thee: be thou their arm every morning, our salvation also in the time of trouble. Isa 33:2
At the noise [singing, shouting] of the tumult [multitude] the people fled; at the lifting up of thyself the nations were scattered. Isa 33:3
And your spoil shall be gathered like the gathering of the caterpiller: as the running to and fro of locusts [from cutting] shall he run upon them. Isa 33:4
Q. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? Isa 33:14
H2611 chânęph khaw-nafe' From H2610 ; soiled (that is, with sin), impious: hypocrite (-ical)
H2613 chnűphâh khan-oo-faw' Feminine from H2610 ; impiety: profaneness.
H2612 chôneph kho'-nef From H2610 ; moral filth, that is, wickedness: hypocrisy.
A. He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly;
........he that despiseth the gain of oppressions,
........that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes,
........that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood,
........and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil; Isa 33:15
He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks:
........bread shall be given him;
........his waters shall be sure. Isa 33:16
Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off. Isa 33:17
Thine heart shall meditate terror [a bugbear, idol] . Where is the scribe? [roll keeper] where is the receiver? [Shekel collector] where is he that counted [celebrate, commune, mark] the towers? [pulpits] Isa 33:18
Ken's beliefs are absent from the Holy Scriptures.
February 8 2009, 4:29 PM
Ken cannot speak without burying us with many words - most not from God and what is is not in God's intended context - because he knows he cannot speak simply from God's word only. He must throw much mud against the wall in hopes that some will stick and that some will continue to be deceived by his confusions. Ken uses a legal trick practiced by lawyers to discourage discovery: Bury the oppostion and the innocent with so much garbage so that the truth can never be found. If Ken's position was so clear in the mind of God, he could quote the one scripture where God agrees with Ken. He could meet Alan's challenge with by quoting just one simple verse from God's Holy Word where God has clearly rejected the praises of Moses, where God has clearly rejected the praises of David and Asaph and Solomon. Ken cannot do so. Who changed praise? God didn't. Ken is the one who has changed praise. It is Ken, not God, who has rejected the praise of David. It is Ken who has cast his lot with Michal.
For the rare DISCIPLE (Christians are students not ceremonial legalists) I have posted some quick links to see how the word CRAFTSMAN or TECHNE is used most often to speak of vile pagan rituals where MUSIC and other performing arts were used to CONTROL the "audience" and take them captive to the pastor person.
22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
........IF you read Revelation 17 you will see that these are "ministers" of the Babylon Mother of Harlots. Why should we need to prove that SHE uses all of the arts and crafts to perform SORCERY.
23And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
Ken would have us believe music is condemned by John in Revalation because of these verses. If this is true, then John has also condemned craftsmen, grinding on grain, lighting a candle, marriage, and being a merchant.
My Grandfather had a 22 foot grist mill: he was miller, blacksmith, store operator, truck farmer and auto mechanic: I never thought that anyone would associate SORCERY with regular occupations. ALL musical terms and names of instruments are on the other hand AIMED at enchantment or SORCERY.
Bible students who learned about the serpent, the musical enchanter/ess or the singing and harp playing prostitute in the garden of Eden will have no trouble finding many PARALLELS to Revelation in the prophets inspired by the Spirit of Christ and ALL radically repudiating the Civil-Military-Clergy thread imposed as a curse. They would understand that we don't want musical craftsmen, GRINDERS whose millstone is defined a flute because it identified the prostitutes, lighting candles are the seven spirits of Christ which have been REMOVED as the candlestick, marrying where "giving in marriage" is a perverted musical term.
We have noted that Revelation 17 identifies the Babylon mother of harlots which is is the end-time taking captive of the church by the CRAFTSMEN or techne.
Revelation 18 warns that the lusted after fruits will be removed when the harlot church comes to an end and peace returnes in Revelation 19. The fruits are connected to the musical practices in Amos and they are the catamites or male prostitutes. I know of no history of pagan religious music which does not include women such as flute-players always prostitutes and perverted males.
Revelation 18 spells out the ARTS AND CRAFTS which were always used (needs no proving) to take the attention away from Christ and His Word. John calls them sorcerers WHO HAD deceived the whole world. Of course the dogs (fruits) and sorcerers and liars are those for whom hell was prepared.
The Craftsmen word (techne) includes any learned or professional skill but there is no reason that a carpenter or a soldier would likely try to attack the church with the performing arts. That is why most of the uses had to do with pagan and perverted operatives in the pagan religions. When used by the civil authorities the rituals were still civil and intended to force the people to "goose step" and "goose step" to the NOMOS (legalism) of the state which were the opposite of NATURAL LAWS which private persons might be tempted to follow.
Techn-ę , hę, ( [tektôn] ) art, skill, cunning of hand, of a soothsayer, A.Ag.249 (pl., lyr.), Eu.17, S.OT389, etc.; technai heterôn heterai Pi.N.1.25 ; ôpase t. Pasan Id.O.7.50 .
........Pasan Id.O.7.50 . Pindar, Olympian 7. [10] for those men who were victors [nike] at Olympia and at Pytho. That man is prosperous, who is encompassed by good reports. Grace, which causes life to flourish, looks with favor now on one man, now on another,
........ with both the sweet-singing lyre and the full-voiced notes of flutes.
[13] And now, with the music of flute and lyre alike I have come to land with Diagoras, singing the sea-child of Aphrodite [ZOE>and bride of Helios, Rhodes Truly, a cloud of forgetfulness sometimes descends unexpectedly, and draws the straight path of action away from the mind. For they climbed the hill without bringing the seed of burning flame; and they established the sacred precinct on the acropolis with fireless sacrifices. Zeus brought to them a yellow cloud [50] and rained on them abundant gold.
........And the gray-eyed goddess herself bestowed on them [51] every art,
........so that they surpassed all mortal men as the best workers with their hands;
Techn-ę 2. craft, cunning, in bad sense, dolię t. Od.4.455, Hes.Th.160: pl., arts, wiles, Od.8.327.332, Hes.Th.496,929; doliais technaisi chręsamenos Pi.N.4.58 ; technais tinos by his arts (or simply by his agency), Id.O.9.52, P.3.11; technęn kakęn echei he has a bad trick, Hes.Th.770, cf. Pi.I.4(3).35(53), S Ph.88, etc.
Techn-ę3. way, manner, or means whereby a thing is gained, without any definite sense of art or craft, mędemięi t. in no wise, apostęsomai . . oute t. oute męchanęi oudemiai IG12.39.22 ; pasęi t. kai męchanęi X.An.4.5.16 ; męte t. męte męchanęi mędemiai Lys.13.95 .
........Męchan-ę engine of war, 3. theatrical machine by which gods, etc., were made to appear in the air,
........ Organum , Of musical instruments, a pipe, used With: machina , ae, f. = mechane, I. a machine, i. e. any artificial contrivance for performing work, II.Trop., a device, plan, contrivance; esp. a trick, artifice, stratagem
........ClasPlaCratylus.html
........Cratylus: Soc. And mine, too, Hermogenes. But do not be too much of a precisian, or "you will unnerve me of my strength." When you have allowed me to add mechane (contrivance) to techne (art) I shall be at the top of my bent, for I conceive mechane to be a sign of great accomplishment- anein; for mekos the meaning of greatness, and these two, mekos and anein, make up the word mechane.
Click for more Cratylus. Who? Ask your preacher. He will know or resign.
You assuredly learned nothing at church today and Simple Simon knows that church is ekklesia or a SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE ONLY: singing as an ACT was not imposed until 373 and that divided the east from the west churches. Why is it that you want to promote music and SILENCE the Word?
Ken throws more mud to confuse a very simple question and challenge from Alan:
"I want to be able to open a KJV, that this site promotes as the only reliable translation, and read where Jesus says, "Do not use instrumental music in your worship service." I would also like to read where he says, "You are to have a song, a prayer, three more songs, communion, another song, the sermon, and and invitation song.""
Who changed praise? It was not God. It was not Jesus Christ. Ken is the one who has changed praise.
Music OUTLAWED by Christ the ROCK as the MARK of the BEASTS
February 9 2009, 10:59 PM
If you remember Exodus 32 from Card Class
Exod 32:1 AND when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount,
........the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron,
........and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us;
........for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt,
........we wot not what is become of him.
Exod 32:2 And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me.
Exod 32:3 And all the people brake off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron.
Exod 32:4 And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool,
........after he had made it a molten calf: and they said,
........These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
Exod 32:5 And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation,
........and said, To morrow is a feast to the Lord.
The LORD they worshiped woud be the Egyptian trinity under Apis the golden calf.
Exod 32:6 And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings,
........and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink,
........and rose up to play.
This was singing, clapping, playing instruments when then and always arouse sexual thoughts.
"For nonliterate peoples, music often serves purposes other than entertainment or aesthetic enjoyment. Certain wind instruments are closely associated with the supernatural, and their sounds connote powerful magic. Australian Aborigines, for instance, identify the sound of a bull-roarer with the voices of supernatural beings; for the Plains Indians, the same sound signifies an awesome natural phenomenon, such as thunder. Wind instruments are often among a group's most important ritual objects, and in some cultures they are specially venerated. The Kamairua Indians of the Amazon rain forest keep their giant flutes (three to four feet long), wherein spirits are believed to dwell, in a special shrine where they are worshiped. The flutes and drums of New Guinea are similarly housed and worshiped.
"Wind instruments in primitive cultures also serve nonreligious functions. In New Guinea, bamboo trumpets were once played
........to frighten an enemy during battle and
........ to alert a village that the victorious warriors were coming home with the corpses of the foes.
"Conch-shell trumpets are used for signaling in the Pacific coastal regions of Columbia and in the Ecuadoran highlands.
........Trumpets also may be associated with the office of king or chief,
........as in West Africa, where their use is strictly controlled by tribal law. "wind instrument" Encyclopćdia Britannica Online.
The word PLAY in Hebrew means "musical idolatry" just as in Egypt. The Latin is ludere which--for the readers--is outlawed in 2 Peter.
Ludo A.To sport, play with any thing, to practise as a pastime, amuse one's self with any thing: Esp., to play on an instrument of music, to make or compose music or song: B.To sport, dally, wanton (cf. "amorous play.
It was an invitation for God to REMOVE GRACE: He did not say, "thou shalt not PLAY like dogs or male prostitutes" so go ahead.
Exod 32:7 And the Lord said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:
Because of that terminal sin God "turned them over to worship the starry host" (Acts 7 etal). The Book of The Covenant of Grace was destroyed and they were given the Law of Moses to legislate for the lawless.
The Same Spirit of Christ ordained the Qahal, synagogue or church in the wilderness. The command was to hold a holy convocation INCLUDING Resting, Reading and Discussing the Word of God.
It was EXCLUSIVE of vocal or instrumental rejoicing. Therefore, the DIRECT COMMAND for the church in the wilderness was identical to the synagogue Jesus endorsed, the ekklesia and the assemblies Paul defined by using the "synagogue" words. There NEVER WAS any "praise service in the synagogue" by DIRECT COMMAND, by historic uniformity and by COMMON DECENCY. Simple Simon does NOT make MUSIC when we are listening to Jesus the Christ (Lord and Spirit) as we TEACH that which has been taught (a direct command) and if you assume that the rhythmic reading was "singing" then we "Sing that which is written" using one MIND and one MOUTH (Rev 15). Self pleasure is OUTLAWED and this defines ALL of the hypocritic performing arts.
HERE IS THE ONLY INSTRUMENTS THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST COMMANDED:
Num. 10:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Num. 10:2 Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them:
........that thou mayest use them
........for the calling of the assembly,
........and for the journeying of the camps.
There is NO use of the instruments which were not for SENDING SIGNALS.
Num. 10:3 And when they shall blow with them,
........all the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee
........at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
ASSEMBLY HERE IS: 3259. ya{ad, yaw-ad´; a primitive root; to fix upon (by agreement or appointment); by implication, to meet (at a stated time), to summon (to trial), to direct (in a certain quarter or position),
Num. 10:4 And if they blow but with one trumpet,
........then the princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel,
........shall gather themselves unto thee.
Woops! better not let little horn blower do a praise service when you are doing SERIOUS THINGS!
Num. 10:5 When ye blow an alarm,
........then the camps that lie on the east parts shall go forward.
Num. 10:6 When ye blow an alarm the second time,
........then the camps that lie on the south side shall take their journey:
........they shall blow an alarm for their journeys.
"Despite the differences between the Mosaic and the Egyptian cults, it can hardly be denied that Egyptian influence on Jewish musical practices were quite significant. They would stand to reason because of the high quality of egyptian cultic music.
The tambourine or timbrel, a hoop of bells over which a white skin was stretched, came from Egypt. Miriam used this instrument to accompany the singing and dancing on the shores of the Red Sea (Ex. 15).
The trumpet blown for decampment, at the gathering of the people and on different cultic occasions, especially during sacrifices (2 Chron. 30:21; 35:15; Num 10:2), was the signaling instrument of the Egyptian army.
The sistrum, according to 2 Sam 6:5, was used by the Israelites and bore the name mena'aneim. It was the same as the Egyptian kemkem which was employed in the cult of Isis.
The solemnity celebrated on the occasion of the transferring of the Ark to Sion, as well as the dances of the daughters of Israel at the annual feast of the Lord of Shiloh (Judg 21:21), were similar in thier musical embellishments to Egyptian customs in the liturgy and at parades. As Herodotus reports,
women sang the praises of Osiris while likenesses of the gods were born about and, during the festival of Diana at Bubastis,
choirs of men and women sang and danced to the beating of drums and the playing of flutes." (Quasten, Johannes, Music and Worship in Pagan and Christian Antiquity, p. 65)
It is SIMILAR because THAT was the musical idolatry and THAT is what God ABANDONED them to.
[6] When you blow an alarm the second time, the camps that lie on the south side shall take their journey: they shall blow an alarm for their journeys.
HOWEVER, THIS IS OUTLAWED FOR FOR THE SYNAGOGUE OR CHURCH IN THE WILDERNESS.
[7] But when the assembly [congregation] is to be gathered together,
you shall blow,
but you shall not sound an alarm.
This is the TRIUMPH OVER which Judas would perform when trying to turn Jesus coward: well documented in Psalm 41.
THE SYNAGOGUE is:
6951. kaw-hawl´; from 6950; assemblage (usually concretely):assembly, company, congregation, multitude
IN THE LATIN THE "SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE" IS CALLED THE ACADAMY
[7] quando autem congregandus est populus simplex tubarum clangor erit et non concise ululabunt
Con-grgo Congrego
Philosophia Academica.. The philosophy of the Acadamy, A. For The philosophy of the Academy: instaret academia, quae quidquid dixisses,
Academia congregation. where plato taught, scholars are called Academici,
and his doctrine. distinction from Stoica, Cynica The DOGS, Wolves and BEASTS in Revelation
........The school of Christ and worship was in the PLACE of the Spirit says Paul
........because OUTSIDE were the DOGS or male prostitutes or the CYNICS
........identified by the MARK of their old style praise singing: sounded like the falsetto of CCM.
That is why Jesus COMMANDED that worship is in the PLACE of the human spirit devoted to the TRUTH of God: it is NOT in all of your pleasure centers.
Knikos , ę, on, ( [kuôn] ) dog-like. kai thęriôdes [BEASTS in Revelation] . currish, churlish, Vulgate 1 Sa 25.3 (?). Adv. -kôs, spômenoi Heliod. ap. Orib.48.38 tit.; in dog language, opp. boďkôs, etc., Porph.Abst.3.3.
Vulgate 1 Samuel 15: [3] Now the name of the man was Nabal; and the name of his wife Abigail; and the woman was of good understanding, and of a beautiful face: but the man was churlish and evil in his doings; and he was of the house of Caleb. [4]
II. Kunikos, ho, Cynic, as the followers of the philosopher Antisthenes were called, from the gymnasium ( [Kunosarges] ) where he taught, D.L.6.13; or from their resemblance to dogs in several respects, Diog.Cyn. ap. eund.6.60, Metrod.16, Polystr.p.20 W., Elias in Cat.111.2, etc.; Kratęti tôi k. Men.117 ; k. hairesis, askęsis, philosophia, Ph.1.352, J.AJ6.13.6, Jul.Or.6.187a; parręsia k. Plu.2.69c ; to k. tęs parręsias Id.Brut. 34 . Adv. Comp. -ôteron Id.2.601e.
Paresia outspoken, frankness, freedom of speech, 4. liberality, lavishnes. this would MARK the rhetorician or one who speaks with great style and polish and makes himself the center of attraction. Jesus called them hypocrites and history identifies them as dogs. Peter warned that he left a MEMORY as a way to MARKK the false teacher.
Again:
[7] But when the assembly [congregation] is to be gathered together,
you shall blow,
but you shall not sound an alarm.
When you BLOW has the same meaning as a CHURCH BELL which tells you when to assemble. The BLOW is Simplex I. In gen., simple, plain, uncompounded, unmixed, II. In partic., simple in a moral sense, without dissimulation, open, frank, straightforward, direct, guileless, artless, honest, sincere,
Without claging the tuba.
Tuba Apart from military purposes, it was used on various occasions, as at religious festivals, games, funerals,
........b. Sonorous, elevated epic poetry,
........c. A lofty style of speaking,
........II. Trop.: tuba belli civilis, i. e. exciter, author, instigato
Clango
I.perf., re, 3, v. n. [kindred with crocio, glocio; cf. clamo and klazô] , to clang, to sound, resound(rare; only in ante-class. and post-Aug. poets): crepitu clangente, Att. ap. Non. p. 463, 16: horrida clangunt signa tubae, Stat. Th. 4, 342 ; cf.: luctificum clangente tub, Val. Fl. 3, 349 : clangunt aquilae, Auct. Carm. Phil. 28.
This OUTLAWS the PRAISE singing which David used to MAKE WAR or a camp follower
Ululo Ullo I. Neutr., to howl, yell, shriek, utter a mournful cry. B.Transf., of places, to ring, resound, re-echo with howling, Feminise ululant, resonae ripa of the GALLIS or castrates.
feminise II.Transf., with an accessory notion of contempt, womanish, effeminate, unmanly: David's playing was MAKING HIMSELF VILE.
magicus , a, um, adj., = magikos, of or belonging to magic B. To say urgently or continually (late Lat.): vernacula principi, Amm. 17, 11, 1 .
........A. superstitio , o-nis, f. [super-sto; orig a standing still over or by a thing; hence, amazement, wonder, dread, esp. of the divine or supernatural] . II. In post-Aug. prose sometimes for religio, religious awe, sanctity; a religious rite:
........B. vanitas , a-tis, f. [vanus] . B. Esp., falsity, falsehood, deception, untruth, untrustworthiness, fickleness, etc.
........C. resono to sound or ring again, to resound, re-echo
........D. Cantus I. Neutr., to utter melodious notes, to sing, sound, play. Transf., of the instruments by which, or (poet.) of the places in which, the sounds are produced, to sound, resound: canentes tibiae,
........E. magicae resonant ubi Memnone chordae,mysterious
YOU CANNOT ESCAPE CAPTIVITY WHICH HAS BEEN CULTIFIED FOR ALL OF YOUR LIFE IF YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO READ BEYOND PRAISE DITTIES.
ISRAEL FELL INTO MUSICAL IDOLATRY AND GRACE
GOD ABANDONED THE ELITE KING, PRIESTS, MUSICIANS AND NEHEMIAH ETAL CALLED THEM ROBBERS AND PARASITES.
THE LORD OR SPIRIT OF CHRIST ORDAINED THE CHURCH IN THE WILDERNESS
HE INCLUDED RESTING FROM RELIGION, READING AND DISCUSSING THE WORD.
HE OUTLAWED CALLING ASSEMBLY WITH AND ASSUREDLY PERFORMING ANY KIND OF PRAISE OR MUSIC BECAUSE IT PREVENTED SCHOOL AND WAS LEFT AS A MARK TO IDENTIFY WHEN THE DOG INVADED.
NO ONE IN HISTORY THOUGHT OF USING ANY KIND OF MUSIC IN THE CHURCH IN THE WILDERNESS.
THEREFORE YOU WOULD NEED A DIRECT COMMAND FROM CHRIST REPUDIATING WHAT THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST COMMANDED AND NEVER RESCINDED.
I will post this under Numbers 10 for the POSSIBLE one person out there who wants to know the PERSONA of the performance preachers and musicians USING them for their own PLEASURE while you PAY them.
Long-winded but still no answer to Alan's question
February 10 2009, 8:02 AM
Ken still cannot come up with a very simple answer to a very simple question and challenge from Alan:
"I want to be able to open a KJV, that this site promotes as the only reliable translation, and read where Jesus says, "Do not use instrumental music in your worship service." I would also like to read where he says, "You are to have a song, a prayer, three more songs, communion, another song, the sermon, and and invitation song.""
Who changed praise? It was not God. It was not Jesus Christ. Ken is the one who has changed praise. And his many long-winded confusions should not deceive us.
Behold, the simplicity of the Holy Word-Psalm 57 (KJV)
February 10 2009, 8:18 AM
For the chief Musician, Al-Tachith, Michtam of David when he fled from Saul in the cave.
1 Be merciful unto me, O God, be merciful unto me: for my soul trusteth in thee: yea, in the shadow of thy wings will I make my refuge, until these calamities be overpast. 2 I will cry unto God most high; unto God that performeth all things for me. 3 He shall send from heaven, and save me from the reproach of him that would swallow me up. Selah. God shall send forth his mercy and his truth. 4 My soul is among lions: and I lie even among them that are set on fire, even the sons of men, whose teeth are spears and arrows, and their tongue a sharp sword. 5 Be thou exalted, O God, above the heavens; let thy glory be above all the earth. 6 They have prepared a net for my steps; my soul is bowed down: they have digged a pit before me, into the midst whereof they are fallen themselves. Selah.
7 My heart is fixed, O God, my heart is fixed: I will sing and give praise. 8 Awake up, my glory; awake, psaltery and harp: I myself will awake early. 9 I will praise thee, O Lord, among the people: I will sing unto thee among the nations. 10 For thy mercy is great unto the heavens, and thy truth unto the clouds. 11 Be thou exalted, O God, above the heavens: let thy glory be above all the earth.
Singy-Clappy Worse-UP will close your mind: Book of Enoch etal.
February 10 2009, 3:14 PM
Ray denies that the SPIRIT OF CHRIST commanded the Qahal, synagogue or church in the wilderness. The SPIRITUAL thread speaks only of Abraham, Moses and the PROPHETS. The kings were given in God's ANGER and taken away in His anger to carry out the captivity and death sentence imposed because of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai:
Acts 7:35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge?
......the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer
......by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.
Acts 7:36 He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt,
......and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years.
Acts 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel,
......A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me;
......him shall ye hear.
Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness
......with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina,
......and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Acts 7:39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,
The Spirit of Christ OUTLAWED "vocal and instrumental rejoicing" when the Qahal, synagotue or church in the wilderness assembled." How many times does it take?
Number 57 is NOT a Psalm and therefore not suitable for use as a TEACHING PSALM. It is a: There are only 50 true Psalms not restricted and NONE of them include instruments. #4387 is Miktam 57:
4387. miktam, mik-tawm´; from 3799; an engraving, i.e. (techn.) a poem:Michtam.
3799. katham, kaw-tham´; a primitive root; properly, to carve or engrave, i.e. (by implication) to inscribe indelibly:mark.
1Sam. 21:13 And he changed his behaviour before them,
......and feigned himself mad in their hands,
......and scrabbled on the doors of the gate,
......and let his spittle fall down upon his beard.
This scrabble has the same meaning.8427. tavah, taw-vaw´; a primitive root; to mark out, i.e. (primitive) scratch or (definite) imprint:scrabble, set (a mark)
In many of the ancient documents from Babylon and other nations, the gods were believed to be inside of musical instruments which were made into the form of a bull (harp). The sounds of the strings was sold to be the voice of the god inside of the idols which even had "speaking tubes" so the manipulator could "discover" the needs of the worshipper and have the idol speak the answer to them (This was before radio).
Awake, my soul! Awake, harp and lyre! I will awaken the dawn. Psalm 57:8
However, Habakkuk pronounced:
Woe unto him that saith to the wood, Awake; to the dumb stone, Arise, it shall teach Behold, it is laid over with gold and silver, and there is no breath at all in the midst of it. Habakkuk 2:19
But the Lord is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him. Habakkuk 2:20
DAVID'S AROUSERS: don't get upset: God turned Israel over to worship the starry host.
"In an inscription from Cyprus, in one from Rhodes and in several from around the district of Carthage, there are references to important personages who bear the title Mqm'lm which we can translate as AROUSERS of the god.'" (de Vaux, Roland, The Bible and the Ancient Near East, Doubleday, p. 247).
"We even have a mention at a later date of a similar custom in connection with the cult in Jerusalem, where certain Levites, called me'oreim, 'AROUSERS,' sang (every morning?) this verse from "Ps 44:23: "Awake, O Lord! Why do you sleep? Rouse yourself! Do not reject us forever." The Talmud tells us that John Hyrcanus suppressed the practice because it recalled too readily a pagan custom." (Roland de Vaux, p. 247).
Soothsayers: Anan (h6049) aw-nan'; a prim. root; to cover; used only as denom. from 6051, to cloud over; fig. to act covertly, i. e. practise magic: - * bring, enchanter, Meonemin, observer of times, soothsayer, sorcerer.
THE KING, KINGDOM, TEMPLE ETC WERE TURNED OVER TO WORSHIP THE STARRY HOST. THERE IS NOTHING IN THE RELIGIOUS PRCTICES OF THE ISRAELITE TEMPLE-STATE WHICH IS NOT EXACTLY LIKE THAT OF THE OTHER NATIONS SUCH AS BABLON. THAT IS WHAT THEY PRAYED FOR AND WHAT GOD GAVE THEM.
Under "Star Worship" the Jewish Encyclopedia states:
"Star Worship" is perhaps the oldest form of idolatry practiced by the ancients. The observation of the stars in the East very early led the people to regard the planets [wandering stars] and the fixed stars as gods. The religion of the ancient Egyptians is known to have consisted preeminently of Sun-worship. Moses sternly warned the Israelites against worshipping the Sun, Moon, stars, and all the hosts of heaven (Deuteronomy 4:19; 17:3). The Israelites fell into this kind of idolatry and as early as the time of Amos they had the images of Siccuth and Chium, 'the stars of their god' (Amos 5:26); the latter name is generally supposed to denote the planet Saturn. [666] That the Kingdom of Israel fell earlier than that of Judah is stated (II Kings 17:16) to have been due, among other causes, to its worshipping the host of heaven.
But the Kingdom of Judah in its later period seems to have outdone the Northern Kingdom [Israel] in star-worship." Of Manasseh it is related that he built altars to all the hosts of heaven in the two courts of the house of YHWY, and it seems it was the practice of even Kings before him to appoint priests who offered sacrifices to the Sun, the Moon, the planets, and all the hosts of heaven. Altars for star-worship were built on the roofs of the houses, and horses and chariots were dedicated to the worship of the Sun. (II Kings 21:5; 23:4-5, 11-12) Star-worship continued in Judah until the 18th year of Josiah's reign (621 B.C.) when the King took measures to abolish all kinds of idolatry. But although star-worship was then abolished as a public cult, it was practiced privately by individuals who worshipped the heavenly bodies, and poured out libations to them on the roofs of their houses (Zephaniah 1:5; Jeremiah 8:2; 19:13) Jeremiah, who prophesied in the sixth year of the captivity of Jehoiachin (591 B.C.) describes the worship of the Sun as practiced in the court of the Temple (Ezekiel 8:16) and that even after the destruction of the Temple the women insisted on continuing to worship the Queen of Heaven.
"The ancient Hebrews, being nomads like the Arabs, favored the Moon, while the Babylonians, who were an agricultural nation, preferred the Sun. But, as appears from Ezekiel 20:7-8 the Moon-worship of the Israelites, even while they were still in Egypt was combined with Sun-worship."
That means that ALL of those who have been led by the nose [in all the wrong places] by the NACC and their change agents have lied about every passage in the Bible and have been wittingly or HALF-wittingly tried to TAKE YOU CAPTIVE to the same MOTHER OF HARLOTS (Rev 17) who uses lusted after FRUITS as slick speakers, singers and instrument players whom John and all known evidence identifies as SORCERERS who HAD deceived the whole world. She/he/it began in the garden of Eden as the singing and harp playing prostitute. You had better FLEE BABYLON if it is not too late: the Bible, the Book of Enoch and common knowledges knows that once you have been forced to make the MUSIC IS WORSHIP CONNECTION you are hard wired and your PURPOSE DRIVEN life is to try to seduce everyone else to give you aid and comfort because you know your fate.
Jesus cast the musical minstrels OUT like dung and marked the MEN of that generation (race of vipers) as belonging to the marketplace with the pipers, singers and dancers where they sold radishes, sermons, young "chorus leaders" and whatever your heart lusted after. Jesus as the Alpha and Omega wrote Revelation 17-18 which probably shows that by the time you hear the MUSIC in the "holy places" your LAMPSTAND was removed by Jesus on His last visit: in the conclusion about the musical people in Amos God says "I will not pass this way again."
...instead he is long-winded, confusing, deceptive, and slanderously puts his words in the mouths of others.
Alan's simple challenge that Ken is unable to meet: "I want to be able to open a KJV, that this site promotes as the only reliable translation, and read where Jesus says, "Do not use instrumental music in your worship service." I would also like to read where he says, "You are to have a song, a prayer, three more songs, communion, another song, the sermon, and and invitation song.""
Behold, the simplicity of the Holy Word-Psalm 108 (KJV)
A Song or Psalm of David.
1 O God, my heart is fixed; I will sing and give praise, even with my glory. 2 Awake, psaltery and harp: I myself will awake early. 3 I will praise thee, O LORD, among the people: and I will sing praises unto thee among the nations. 4 For thy mercy is great above the heavens: and thy truth reacheth unto the clouds. 5 Be thou exalted, O God, above the heavens: and thy glory above all the earth;
6 That thy beloved may be delivered: save with thy right hand, and answer me. 7 God hath spoken in his holiness; I will rejoice, I will divide Shechem, and mete out the valley of Succoth. 8 Gilead is mine; Manasseh is mine; Ephraim also is the strength of mine head; Judah is my lawgiver; 9 Moab is my washpot; over Edom will I cast out my shoe; over Philistia will I triumph. 10 Who will bring me into the strong city? who will lead me into Edom? 11 Wilt not thou, O God, who hast cast us off? and wilt not thou, O God, go forth with our hosts? 12 Give us help from trouble: for vain is the help of man. 13 Through God we shall do valiantly: for he it is that shall tread down our enemies.
After reading Ken's "responses" to the simple question that Alan posted, it has become abundantly clear that he cannot turn off the antiquity/Mythology/Sexual/ mumbo jumbo and answer a simple question.
If he cannot, can anyone?
Please, using Book, Chapter and Verse, show me where it is a sin to use a musical instrument to worship God. I will help you out some, it is in the same BCV that does the following:
1. allows Wed. night Bible services
2. allows a paid full time preacher
3. allows there to be a "song leader"
4. allows there to be "Bible Class"
5. orders us to take communion every Sunday morning
6. allows the communion to consist of Welch's grape juice, even though no such product existed in Bible times.
7. allows there to be youth groups or youth ministers.
8. clearly bans miracles, speaking in tongues, prophecy etc.
9. allows multiple cups to be used in communion, etc.
This could go on forever. All I ask is for someone to calmly and rationally explain why they do not believe instruments should be used in worship and then give Biblical support for this belief.
Christ OUTLAWED music AFTER musical idolatry at Mount Sinai.
February 12 2009, 12:35 AM
1. Christ OUTLAWED vocal and instrumental rejoicing for the Qahal, synagogue or church in the wilderness: the word TRIUMPH OVER or ALARM is what you produce when you MAKE MUSIC which destroys the ability to hold school of the Bible--only.
2. The SPIRITUAL THREAD of the mass of the population attended synagogue or school of the Bible in their own precincts once a week. They were EXCLUDED from the vile sacrificial system: when you heard the NOISE you had better be OUTSIDE OF THE GATES.
3. The sacrificial system had been dead for centuries when Jesus came and was under the Edomites or race of vipers to whom Jesus would not reveal truth.
4. At the same time Jesus CAST OUT the musical minstrels LIKE DUNG as Lucifer was CAST AS PROFANE out of heaven. He MARKED the MEN of that time as CHILDREN (perverst re Isa 3) who PIPED hoping to get others to sing or lament and dance the perverted Dionysus "bowing to Baal" OUCH!
5. There is no recorded history before these end times which did not denounce instrumental music based on BIBLICAL LITERACY and common decency.
6. Singing as an ACT was not imposed until they year 373 and split the east church from the west.
7. People who IMPOSE instruments plan to sow discord--upset your comfort zone--to make a place of respect for their musician friends.
8. Therefore, you need a LAW which has Jesus DENYING what He repudiated in all of the Prophets.
For anyone who has ever read the book of Exodus you understand that they fell into musical idolatry which they brought with them from Egypt which had been brought with them from Babylon. God abandoned them to worship the starry hosts and later God gave them kings in His anger and took them away in His anger. They were chosen to put the nation into captivity including confiscating the young men to make and blow instruments before the King's chariots.
The common people were QUARANTINED from the much later unauthorized temple and the ugly sacrifices of innocent animals: the Levitical warrior musicians were to "make the lambs dumb before the slaughter" and Psalm 41 prophesied that Judas would try the same MUSICAL attack on Jesus and fail.
Christ was the ROCK which led and fed the Isralites: when the ELITE (military-clergy) were abandoned to worship the STARRY HOST including Chiun 666, the Sabbath which had been PROFANED by having a religious ritual including music. Therefore, KEEPING the Sabbath meant "keeping it in prison" and people were locked down in their own precincts: a Sabbath Day's journey was what was PERMITTED which was about 700 feet. The same REST or PAUO was given us by Christ who fired the BURDEN LADERS which primarily meant the form of "singing" you children love to use to out yourselves.
The Holy Convocation was held on the FIRST and SEVENTH days of festivals and later on all SABBATH (Rest days) while the RELIGIOUS events such as making offerings was on the DAY AFTER THE SABBATH.
Because the REST was rest FROM the speakers, singers and instruument players including the takers of tithes and "sending out ministers" the Holy Convocation meant only to READ and DISCUSS the Word of God: just what Jesus commanded and Paul inforced.
Num. 10:7 But when the congregation [Qahal, synagogue] is to be gathered together,
ye shall blow, but ye shall not sound an alarm.
No one but a son of Aaron was ever allowed to blow the SIGNAL TRUMPETS
Num. 10:8 And the sons of Aaron, the priests, shall blow with the trumpets; and they shall be to you for an ordinance for ever throughout your generations.
The "musical" instruments were ADDED by David under the KING and COMMANDERS of the Army for the STATE which Nehemiah called Robbers and Parasites.
Both Calvin and Luther grasped that this was a direct command NOT to call or conduct the church in the wilderness with vocal or instrumental rejoicing because it always creates a sense of panic and because you DO NOT call an assembly God has not authorized.
Nehemiah defined the King, Priests and false prophets of being ROBBERS and PARASITES. When he held the Holy convocation as COMMANDED by Christ for the synagogue (ekklesia):
Neh. 8:1 And all the people gathered themselves together as one man
........ into the street that was before the water gate;
........and they spake unto Ezra the scribe to bring
........the book of the law of Moses, which the LORD had commanded to Israel.
Neh. 8:2 And Ezra the priest brought the law before the congregation both of men and women,
........and all that could hear with understanding,
........upon the first day of the seventh month.
Neh. 8:3 And he read therein before the street that was before the water gate
........from the morning until midday, before the men and the women,
........and those that could understand; and the ears of all the people were attentive
Neh. 8:4 And Ezra the scribe stood upon a pulpit of wood, which they had made for the purpose;
........and beside him stood Mattithiah, and Shema, and Anaiah, and Urijah, and Hilkiah, and Maaseiah,
........on his right hand; and on his left hand, Pedaiah, and Mishael, and Malchiah, and Hashum,
........and Hashbadana, Zechariah, and Meshullam.
Neh. 8:5 And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people; (for he was above all the people;)
........and when he opened it, all the people stood up:
Neh. 8:6 And Ezra blessed the LORD, the great God. And all the people answered, Amen, Amen,
........with lifting up their hands [PALMS]: and they bowed their heads,
........and worshipped the LORD with their faces to the ground unto the book of the law.
HERE IS WHAT THE PARASITES DID: Jesus paid it all but YOU better pay ME
Truphaô 2.revel in, LXXSi.14.4 ; delight in, .Ne.9.25. [Nehemiah called the kings-priests parasites]
A. live softly, luxuriously, fare sumptuously, of a child, leukos . Ep.Jac.5.5, Gal.6.416, etc.; paison, truphęson, zęson
paison paizô [pais] 4. to play (on an instrument), to sport, play, jest, joke, to make sport of one, mock him,
III. give oneself airs, be dainty, fastidious, connected to the Polus, Spoiled pets: en tais ekklęsiais t. kai kolakeuesthai, of the people,
That means the SPOILED PETS OF THE EKKLESIA OR CHURCH.
THE SYNAGOGUE WAS LIMITED SOLELY TO an opening blessing and:
Why do you READ the word in order to preach it?
Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city
........them that preach him,
........being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
HERE IS WHAT PAUL DID AND WHAT HE COMMANDED TIMOTHY TO DO TO HOLD "CHURCH"
1Tim. 4:12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.
1Tim. 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
Tonight, like every Thursday night, I will get together with a group of my friends here at college and we will worship Jesus. I play guitar. I love to praise Jesus through playing my guitar and singing words from my heart to Him. Jesus loves a heart of sincere worship and I feel his love when I play and sing. One of my professors here at school was a translator of the New Testament for the New Living Translation. He is a loving man of God and a terrific biblical scholar. His goal with the NLT was to translate God's Word accurately from the best ancient Greek and Latin texts we have available in an understandable and readable way. This was the same goal scholars who worked with the King James Version. Different translations are good for gaining unique insights into the Bible. I sincerely wish I was skilled enough in Greek to translate the NT myself and experience God's word in a way that scholars have throughout the centuries.
To everyone on this site my greatest concern with its content is that it consists of arguments severely lacking in love. I get very discouraged when I read threads like these. Discussion is important to growth in Jesus but bickering is nothing but harmful. Brother attacking brother is not the life exemplified by Jesus.
Ken, I get the feeling that you often feel very alone. You feel that everyone has forsaken the faith except you; that you are the only one still trying to live the right way for God. I know how you feel. I'm a Christian in college. Almost everyday I walk to class and feel alone. You and I are the same in this way. Yet I am reminded of the story of Elijah. He felt alone too; like the only man left in the whole world who still loved God. What was God's response to Elijah's sorrow and lonliness? "Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him." There are still many people that love God, Ken. You have brothers and sisters in Christ in places you don't even realize. I'm one of them.
Yes, I am aware that there are more than 7,000 who have not bowed to Baal but my target are the ones who gleefully lie, cheat and steal the church house of widows to turn then into a theater for holy entertainment. I assure you that no one has taken a church of Christ captive--about 11 out of up to 18,000--who has not deliberately lied to God and about God and taken their congregation captive to the CURSE which God imposed on Israel BECAUSE of of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai: just read Acts 7 and they can get away with being Old Testament illiterate and therefore legalistic. I am quite certain that you don't know anyone who knows what happened at Mount Sinai. I rest assured that I am fairly alone because I have the Bible and all recorded history from the olden times on my side.
Then you can see how ALL of the prophets speaking by the Spirit of Christ repudiated the whole degenerate monarchy and called them robbers and parasites.
No, Stephen, you missed out on psychology and mind reading
I live on the side of a hill in a valley with 115 acres with a creek running through it: it is fed by two major branches leaping over waterfalls on the notrh and 5 such branches from the south. I have an old county road running through it with neighbors on both sides who visit on horses or 4 wheelers. I have deer, wolves (especially pear ripening time), coyotes and lots of smaller cretures.
I have one wife of 52 years, one dog, one cat and a lovely house. Since schools don't teach people to go into all the world I have taken that mission. Here is a short map history of my congregation by size.
Since I post Biblical and historic literature all of which repudiates music as WORSHIP and defines it as witchery or as John does in Revelation 18 sorcers who HAD deceived the whole world. It is a fact that I haven't heard of one preacher ot Greek scholar who does not THINK that the Bible commanded music.
Paul's UNIQUE worship word is to give heed to the Word of God and thus the Church in the Wilderness was commanded in the wilderness, affirmed by Jesus Christ, commanded by Paul and practiced before the first sowers of discord as late as 373 which divided the east from the west.
I can tell you without any blushing that you don't know a preacher or "scholar" who has ever read the literature whose links I give you free of charge. If I seem alone in these end times be assured that you will find NO Biblical text or any recorded literature which does not know that MUSIC tends to induce a DRUG HIGH and you THINK that you are praiseing God but you are stroking your own pleasure centers. Huxley speaking of the actors and musicians promoted by Lynn Ancerson etal and quoting Huxley says that the performing changes their character and they are engaging in emotional masturbation. The Egyptians called it and performed it with literal masturbation on their "gods" while claiming to praise them. The vineyard lady, Carol Wimber, promoter of the new style praise singing from old style Babylon promotes it as a sexual-like climax with the spirit. Woe.
There was never any PRAISE singing or instruments in any institution of God and the TEMPLE-STATE was permitted as a curse as God "turned them over to worship the starry host" BECAUSE of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai.
The praise singer was called a prophesier (whom God does not recognize) or sorcery and because he/she was emotionally and sexually abnormal his/her/its antics were sold to the IGNORANT as the spirit of the gods inside: nothing much has changed and the praise singer was the world's OLDEST profession. The praise leader or precentor is called "the oldest heresy largely pervading the church."
"Alexander, on the other hand, preferred his native place, urging very truly that an enterprise like theirs required congenial soil to give it a start,
in the shape of 'fat-heads' and simpletons; that was a fair description, he said, of the Paphlagonians beyond Abonutichus;
they were mostly superstitious and well-to-do; one had only to go there with someone to play the flute, the tambourine, or the cymbals, set the proverbial mantic sieve a-spinning, and there they would all be gaping as if he were a god from heaven.
I know some things the scholars will never know: for instance, the use of music was always a way to deceive the ignorant classes to force them into captivity. When educated men met together and wanted to discuss an issue they sent the flute-girl (synonym for prostitute) or the harp-player out because the music seduced them into "getting drunk on wine" and doing nasty things to one another.
I'm heading upstairs for another cup of coffee or perhaps noon feeding and I expect to be pounced on by a kitten and a wife who shares my HEAVENLY LONELINESS.
I found your response interesting. Honestly a bit offensive at times but it's ok no big deal. I think your description of instrumental worship as "emotional masturbation" excessive but nevertheless I can agree with you in some ways. Music, be it secular or in church, can be emotionally manipulative. I find often times in churches I visit that music is idolized. People worry so much about the quality of sound or getting just the right mood that the Holy Spirit gets lost in the shuffle. These, however, are human faults in using music in worship. I believe music is a terrific gift from God and when employed properly with an attitude of humility to God it can be a tremendous blessing to people and Jesus Himself.
That being said I'd like to engage in some friendly dialogue on a few Scriptures. I'm curious to know what your interpretation is.
The first topic is King David and his use of instruments in worship. David himself was described as a man after God's own heart and was also a skilled harp player. "Whenever the spirit from God came upon Saul, David would take his harp and play. Then relief would come to Saul; he would feel better, and the evil spirit would leave him." -1 Samuel 16:22-24
I'm also curious about your thoughts on the 288 Levite musicians David employed for worship. (1 Chronicles 25:1-7)
The third passage is a story from the life of Elisha in which he calls for a musician in order to focus his mind and heart in a worshipful attitude that God honors. "But now bring me a minstrel. And it came to pass, when the minstrel played, that the hand of the LORD came upon him." -2 Kings 3:15
Finally, I'm wanting to know your interpretation on a text out of Revelation. "And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." -Revelation 5:7-10
To me this verse at most strongly indicates that instrumental worship occurs in heaven and the least John doesn't look poorly upon the use of instruments in worship.
Sorry about the slows: I have been having forum editor problems.
I found your response interesting. Honestly a bit offensive at times but it's ok no big deal. I think your description of instrumental worship as "emotional masturbation" excessive but nevertheless I can agree with you in some ways. Music, be it secular or in church, can be emotionally manipulative. I find often times in churches I visit that music is idolized. People worry so much about the quality of sound or getting just the right mood that the Holy Spirit gets lost in the shuffle. These, however, are human faults in using music in worship. I believe music is a terrific gift from God and when employed properly with an attitude of humility to God it can be a tremendous blessing to people and Jesus Himself.
I will dwell on this a bit: I believe that I have done more research on the music issue thean most and I can honestly say that the religious music ritual has no other meaning except the superstituous "prophesiers" who were emotionally and sexually abnormal. Because David made the radical switch of letting the warrior instrument players--which needed no authority if you wanted to turn the enemy into cowards--was abnormal. The warrior musicians and their "praise psalms" was a threat always carried out: If you don't turn coward we will Rape you, Rob you and Rapture you.
When Jesus spoke of the MEN of that generation like CHILDREN who PIPED trying to get everyone to sing or lament and dance this was the INITIATION of the always-homosexual priests of Dionysys, Cybele or the mother goddess in Revelation 17. She used lusted after FRUITS as performance preachers, singers and instrument players whom John called sorcerers. David introduced MALES as singer/musicians and the names of the guilds, their dress, their falsetto style and the names of their instruments were feminie or effeminate. When David stripped down to his ephod.
David made himself vile and would be honored by the women who would be camp followers. Here is what happened:
2 Sam 6:5 And David and all the house of Israel PLAYED before the Lord
........on all manner of instruments made of fir wood,
........ even on harps, and on psalteries, and on timbrels,
........ and on cornets, and on cymbals.
This was the same "rising up to play" at Mount Sinai:
The word PLAY was confessed by David to MAKE SELF VILE and he did it to be honored by the CAMP FOLLOWER GIRLS:
lu-do to sport, to play on an instrument of music, to make or compose music or song:
C. Ludere aliquem or aliquid, to play, mock, imitate, to imitate work, make believe work, -PARASITES-
........2 Peter 2:13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness,
........as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes,
........sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
........Truphaô , ( -truphe- ) A. live softly, luxuriously, fare sumptuously, paison, paison
paizô -pais-. to play (on an instrument), to sport, play, jest, joke, to make sport of one, mock him,
B. To sport, dally, wanton (cf. "amorous play,"
........Nu-do I. to make naked or bare; to strip, bare, lay bare,
........expose to view, uncover
............Scurra , ae, m. 1. A city buffoon, droll, jester (usually in the suite of wealthy persons,
............and accordingly a kind of parasite; syn.: -Of the clown in a pantomime, sannio, parasitus)
............Sannio ,
............ I. one who makes mimicking grimaces, a buffoon
............Parasi-tus , i, m., = parasitos, lit. one who eats with another; hence,
............ parasitus Phoebi, a player, actor -For APOLLO or Apollyon and his MUSES-
Jesus said:
Mt.11:28 Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Phorizo (g5412) for-tid'-zo; from 5414; to load up (prop. as aa vessel or animal),
i.e. (fig.) to overburden with ceremony (or spiritual anxiety): - lade, be heavy laden.
Paul outlawed this as SELF PLEASURE in Romans 15 which includes music and all of the hypocritic arts and crafts. Rather, the church is to pleas others for their GOOD and for their EDIFICATION or EDUCATION. This commanded please word means to inform and educate: the only purpose of the church.
Phort-izô
Load them with burdens, to carry away a load of honey, vision encumbering,
This points to a man seeking Phoibou (Apollo, Abaddon, Apollyon god of fear and homosexual worship) sang his victory song, won married his own mother as the prize.
Mim-etes A. imitator, grammatônforgers, Scribes. Lib. Ep.115.4.
II. artist (cf. >mimesis one who mpersonates characters, as an actor or poet,
2. coupled with >goes, mere actor, impostor,
........Similar Latin: masturbtor I.one who defiles himself (post-Aug.), Mart. 14, 203, 2.
Doxo mimetes , one who stones, their oppressor, deikelikas one who represents,
........ hupokrites Aristotle, Poetics, how a hypocrite should tell lies.
........Plato, Statesman -303c- as not being statesmen,
........but partisans and since they preside over the greatest counterfeits,
........they are themselves counterfeits, and since they are the greatest of imitators and cheats,
........they are the greatest of all sophistsYounger Socrates
........This term sophist seems to have come round quite rightly to the so-called statesmen.
........Stranger
........Well, this part has been exactly like a play.
........Just as we remarked a moment ago, a festive troop of centaurs or satyrs was coming into view,
........which we had to separate from the art of statesmanship; .
Sophis- A.master of one's craft, adept, expert, of diviners Hdt.2.49; of poets, meletan sophistais prosbalon cf. Cratin.
2; of musicians, sophistes . parapaion chelun -hermes harp-
Pindar, Isthmian 1 fine warriors gained fame, and they are celebrated with lyres and flutes in full-voiced harmonies
........ for time beyond reckoning. Heroes who are honored by the grace of Zeus provide a theme for skilled poets
I won't apologize for the picture of a Satyr as a picture of the NEW WINESKINNERS
You need to begin at Mount Sinai where Israel rose up to play in musical idolatry. For that profaning the Sabbath which was for rest and not for worship, God turned them over to worship the starry host and gave them a firey law. The kings were given in God's anger and taken away in His anger because the "elders" fired God. God understood that they wanted to worship like the nations.
Samuel and others make it clear that God pronounced judgment upon the nation and promised that the kings would lead them into slavery and then captivity and death. That even includes the warning that the kings would confiscate the young men to make "instruments of chariots" and like all oriental potentates they would run before the chariots making noise (never called music) and be the first ones killed. Prophets like Nehemiah confirm this and identify the Civil-Military-Clergy complex as robbers and parasites.
Even in the wilderness the Qahal was the synagogue and the holy convocation was to read the Word and discuss it: that was always the pattern for the synagogue and the church.
That being said I'd like to engage in some friendly dialogue on a few Scriptures. I'm curious to know what your interpretation is.
The first topic is King David and his use of instruments in worship.
David himself was described as a man after God's own heart and was also a skilled harp player.
There are two understandings of that: first, most scholars say that it means that "God picked David." Secondly, there are severaly passages which praise people because they "walked in the first ways of David." David was king and the Levitical Warrior instrument players were under the king and commanders of the army. The Temple was not the Tent God had given to David at a Jebusite High place called Sodom.
"...by speaking of Himself as 'greater than the Temple' (Mt. 12:6) and by quoting Hos. 6:6, 'I desire goodness and not sacrifice,' He indicated the relative subortinateness of the temple and its whole system of worship, and in His utterance to the woman of Samaria He intimated the abolition both of the whole idea of the central sanctuary and of the entire ceremonial worship; 'Neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall ye worship the Father'; they that worship him must worship in spirit (mind) and truth" (Jn. 4:21, 24)." (Int. Std. Bible Ency., Worship, p. 3111).
Remember that God turned the national system over to worship the starry host: all of The book of The Law was added to protect the weak against the strong but had no spiritual or redeaming value.
http://www.piney.com/First.Samuel.Eight.html This clearly identifies the kings as those who would carry out the captivity and death penalty. Therefore, whatever you see David doing has nothing to do with the SPIRITUAL THREAD which quarantined the people OUTSIDE THE GATES when they heard the NOISE never called music. The people always attended CHURCH in the wilderness which included REST, reading the Word and discussisng it. It excludes vocal or instrumental rejoicing.
Numbers 10:6. When ye blow an alarm the second time, then the camps that lie on the south side shall take their journey:
they shall blow an alarm for their journeys
........Calvin's Latin: 6. Quum autem clanxeritis cum jubilatione secundo, tum proficiscentur castra eorum
........qui castrametantur ad meridiem; cum jubilatione clangent in profectionibus suis.
Numbers 10:7. But when the congregation is to be gathered together, ye shall blow,
but ye shall not sound an alarm.
........You SHALL NOT: 7. Quando vero congregabitis coetum, clangetis, sed absque jubilatione.
Both the Hebrew and Latin show that the CHURCH was and is a school of the Bible--only: you don't need a LAW not to make music in Bible Class.
IN THE LATIN THE "SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE" IS CALLED THE ACADAMY
Calvin: 7. Quando vero congregabitis coetum, clangetis, sed absque jubilatione.
[7] quando autem congregandus est populus simplex tubarum clangor erit et non concise ululabunt
Con-grgo Congrego Academia congregation. where plato taught, scholars are called Academici, and his doctrine
Philosophia Academica.. The philosophy of the Acadamy,A. For The philosophy of the Academy:
Academia congregation. where plato taught, scholars are called Academici,
and his doctrine. Distinction from Stoica, Cynica
That which was permitted as a "church bell" :
Simplex I. In gen., simple, plain, uncompounded, unmixed,
That which was OUTLAWED.
Tuba Apart from military purposes, it was used on various occasions, as at religious festivals, games, funerals,
........b. Sonorous, elevated epic poetry,
........c. A lofty style of speaking,
........II. Trop.: tuba belli civilis, i. e. exciter, author, instigato
THE SYNAGOGUE RESTRICTED WITHIN THE PEOPLE'S PRECINCTS NEVER CHANGED:
ONLY for the national sacrificial system and going to war were instruments used. The BOOK of Psalms contains only 50 mizmors suitable for use and none of them include instruments. The other Psalms are warrior's panic Psalms and never used in the synagogue:
The book of Psalms contain new doctrine after the Law of Moses. And after the writing of Moses, it is the second book of doctrine... (David) first gave to the Hebrews a new style of psalmody, why which he abrogates the ordinances established by Moses with respect to sacrifices, and introduces the new hymn and a new style of jubilant praise in the worship of God; and throughout his whole ministry he teaches very many othe things that went beyond the law of Moses." (Fragment of Commentary by Hippolytus, bishop of Rome, Ante-Nicene, V, p. 170)
You say, "We want to be like the nations, like the peoples of the world, who serve wood and stone." But what you have in mind will never happen. Eze.20:32
"The quotation from Acts refers to David early in life, before he had fallen into those great sins which cast such a shadow upon his administration...This commendation is not absolute, but describes the character of David in comparison with that of Saul...It merely indicates a man whom God will approve, in distinction from Saul, who was rejected" (Haley's Bible Handbook, p. 222).
When people are compared to David it is during his first ways and not his last ways:
........And the Lord was with Jehoshaphat, because he walked in the first ways of his father David, and sought not unto Baalim; 2Chr.17:3
I repeat that there are TWO THREADS in the Old Testament (and in everything): First the EVIL THREAD was a secular monarchy which God warned and Nehemiah claimed that they were robbers and parasites. ALL of the deliberate sowing of musical discord are proof texted from the EVIL THREAD
1Sam. 16:16 Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well.
QUANDRY: whether to post what is clearly said about this event or post the Bible's own definition which repudiates it? I think I will post your verse first and then look backward. Perhaps few are aware that God ABANDONED the Monarchy and whole sacrificial system and warned that the kings would steal their property, put them into slavery and lead them into captivity and death. Saul and David were military leaders which God PERMITTED who would have to slaughter all of their enemies by their own CUNNING. Back in the wilderness God said that He would chase them out with wasps or hornets but Israel rejected the GRACE and wanted to do it themselves.
When Saul "prophesied" he was despised by the WARRIORS because he acted like a raving mad man and effeminate. Furthermore, he took the glory for winning battles for himself and even built a monument to himself. The PURPOSE of the king was to DESTROY all of the enemies of the invading Israelites. He was not a spiritual leader. Saul tried to bluff the Philistines by claiming that he had "god" in the Ark but the Philistines were not intimidated. Therefore, Saul's rejection was based on his inability to be a MILITARY LEADER.
1Sam. 15:34 Then Samuel went to Ramah; and Saul went up to his house to Gibeah of Saul.
1Sam. 15:35 And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death:
.........nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul:
.........and the LORD repented [grieved] that he had made Saul king over Israel.
1Sam. 16:1 And the LORD said unto Samuel,
.........How long wilt thou mourn for Saul,
.........seeing I have rejected him from reigning over Israel? NOT AS MUSIC MINISTER
.........fill thine horn with oil, and go, I will send thee to Jesse the Bethlehemite:
.........for I have provided me a king among his sons.
1Sam. 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul,
.........and an evil spirit from the LORD/ troubled [frightened]him.
When the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul He was through with him and told Samuel to "forget Saul." Therefore, God did not seek anyone to heal Saul's madness which was a STRONG DELUSION. Rather:
1Sam. 16:15 And Sauls servants said unto him,
.........Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.
HOW TO DO AN END RUN AROUND GOD. All of those who lie about the Word in order to IMPOSE instruments have also declared them the dominant pastor or "a king set over us" and the elders have been demonted to "shepherds only" and the deacons often have been replaced by women and hired hands. Therefore, they REPEAT the patternism.
1. Point? If God sends you a "spirit" that tells you to lie about all of the "instrument" passages to divide the "nation" then what do you do?
2. In the few examples of those who have already split their churches and families over "praise singing" "an EVIL spirit has been allowed to make them delusional."
3. They carry out their purpose and lie about not using instruments on Sunday and IMPOSE instruments.
4. The FACT of FORCING music is THEIR way of dispelling the evil spirit (well documented in the Book of Enoch) and the fall from grace at Mount Sinai.
5. When they PLAY they soothe (soothsayers) their derangement-delusions but only for the moment.
NOTE THAT GOD DID NOT WANT A "SOOTHE SAYER" TO HELP SAUL WHOM HE HAD DOOMED.
1Sam. 16:16 Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man,
.........who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass,
.........when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well
You can TRIUMPH OVER God by the use of music: that is the SAME concept where God outlawed the ALARM or TRIUMPH OVER during "church in the wilderness." The CHANGELINGS boast about "upsetting people's comfort zones." Once they have survived hearing the musical ministers they will grumble but soon get over it.
The word PLAY is NAGAN 5059 which is the same as hChalal (h2490) meaning to play the flute, steal one's inheritance (throne), pollute or prostitute. h1984 is David's praise word meaning to "makes self vile" which is the root for LUCIFER.
1Sam. 16:18 Then answered one of the servants, and said,
.........Behold, I have seen a son of Jesse the Bethlehemite,
.........that is cunning in playing, and a mighty valiant
.........[gibbowr warrior, tyriant, champion, act insolently: just what God prophesied]
.........man, and a man of war,
.........and prudent in matters, and a comely person, and the LORD is with him.
1Sam. 16:21 And David came to Saul, and stood before him:
.........and he loved him greatly; and he became his armourbearer.
David would be a WARRIOR and not a worship leader.
Why shouldn't we believe that David was put in place to further drive Saul into and out of madness as a way to further discredit Saul in preparation for David to assume the throne. Later, the musical girls TAUNTED Saul with music to drive him further into madness
1Sam. 18:9 And Saul eyed David from that day and forward.
1Sam. 18:10 And it came to pass on the morrow,
.........that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul,
.........and he prophesied in the midst of the house:
.........and David played with his hand, as at other times:
.........and there was a javelin in Sauls hand.
1Sam. 18:11 And Saul cast the javelin;
.........for he said, I will smite [strike, clap] David even to the wall with it.
.........And David avoided out of his presence twice.
This is the same charismatic ecstacy which was the ONLY PERSON used in paganism: by driving people to prophesy or become insane they believed that the spirits were holy. That is what happens when the music begans the ROCK beat (that "F" word from voodoo]
He prophesied in the midst of the house. He was beside himself; made prayers, supplications, and incoherent imprecations: 'God preserve my life,' 'Destroy my enemies,' or such like prayers, might frequently escape from him in his agitated state. The Arabic intimates that he was actually possessed by an evil spirit, and that through it he uttered a sort of demoniacal predictions." (Clark, 1 Sam 18, p. 270).
"In ancient times, says Justin, kings used a spear instead of a diadem: And as spears were the emblems of supreme power, hence they were reputed as attributes of the Divinity, and were worshipped as representatives of the gods." (Adam Clark, 1 Sam. 18, p. 270)
"We find demon-possessed Saul 'acting like a prophet' by becoming semi-conscious and immobile when attempting to apprehend David at Ramah..The context of this passage makes it clear that Saul's behavior was not the ordinary behavior of the true prophets of God." (Christianity Today, March 12,
"'Played the prophet,' viz., by gestures and demeanor.";Driver. "Rather, he raved."--Keil. "The word 'prophesy' describes an ecstatic condition due to supernatural influence, good or evil; the result in the one case being prophetic inspiration or religious enthusiasm, in the other raving madness."--Cambridge Bible. 1971, p. 541)
Heredotus writes: Now the Scythians are wont to reproach the Greeks with their Bacchanal rage, and to say that it is not reasonable to imagine there is a god who impels men to madness. No sooner, therefore, was Scylas initiated in the Bacchic mysteries than one of the Borysthenites went and carried the news to the Scythians
You Scyths laugh at us" he said, "because we rave when the god seizes us.
But now our god has seized upon your king, who raves like us, and is maddened by the influence.
If you think I do not tell you true, come with me, and I will show him to you."
The chiefs of the Scythians went with the man accordingly, and the Borysthenite, conducting them into the city, placed them secretly on one of the towers.
Presently Scylas passed by with the band of revellers, raving like the rest, and was seen by the watchers.
Regarding the matter as a very great misfortune they instantly departed, and came and told the army what they had witnessed.
I have to tell you again that Jesus had nasty words for scribes and this is one of the accounts of the KING'S SCRIBE having to do 100% with military matters. The nation needed a strong tyrant instead of an effeminate madman to lead the CIVIL-MILITARY thread. On the large other hand, ALL of the spiritual truth is attributed only to the prophets: Jesus credits Abraham, Moses and the Prophets as speaking by the Spirit of Christ.
BEFORE LOOKING AT DAVID'S CUNNING PLAYING YOU SHOULD GRASP THAT BECAUSE OF MUSICAL IDOLATRY GOD HAD TURNED THEM OVER TO WORSHIP THE STARRY HOST: THIS WAS THEIR COVENANT WITH DEATH.
THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN SAVE OUT OF THE ABANDONMENT OF THE NATIONAL GOVERNMENT WHICH REPLACED THE RULE OF GOD.
Cunning. 2803. chashab, khaw-shab´; a primitive root; properly, to plait or interpenetrate, i.e. (literally) to weave or (gen.) to fabricate; figuratively, to plot or contrive (usually in a malicious sense); hence (from the mental effort) to think, regard, value, compute:(make) account (of), conceive, consider, count, cunning (man, work, workman), devise, esteem, find out, forecast, hold, imagine, impute, invent, be like, mean, purpose, reckon(-ing be made), regard, think.
h2803Chashab
Weaving or Plaiting versed together to make songs was always done to fool the foolish: no one ever "made music" who did not intend to seduce people literally or to steal their "tithes and offerings. In the Gree:
Plek-ô , Pi.O. 6.86, etc.: fut. Twisted rope, basket work
II. metaph., devise, contrive, mostly of tortuous means, E.Ion826
.........[825] And the god has not deceived you; your husband deceived you long ago, rearing his son,
.............and wove such plots;
.............if convicted, he might ascribe it to the god . . .
.............he was about to invest him with the rule of your land. [830]
.............And he fashioned this new name at his leisure,
2. of Poets, p. humnon, rhęmata, Pi.O.6.86 weaving songs for spearmen
There are only 50 of the BOOK of Psalms suitable for used by the Jews but there would be no SINGING in the synagogue which was a school of the Bible--only.
Many of the rest are warriors panic songs: our god can destroy your gods.
Pale (g3823) pal'-ay; from pallo, (to vibrate; another form for 906); wrestling: - / wrestle
pallô, poise, sway a missile before it is thrown, sway, brandish, she drove it furiously, swing, dash oneself, tripped on the shield-rim, quiver, leap, esp. in fear, vibrate, of strings, Pl.Phd.94c (psalloito)
Greek: Class-Euripides-Ion.html.
Strong though thy beak beyond the feather'd kind,
My bow shall reach thee. Towards the altar, see,
A swan comes sailing: elsewhere wilt thou move
Thy scarlet-tinctured foot? or from my bow
The lyre of Phoebus to thy notes attuned
Will not protect thee; farther stretch thy wings;
Go, wanton, skim along the Delian lake,
Or wilt thou steep thy melody in blood.
Look, what strange bird comes onwards; wouldst thou fix
Beneath the battlements thy straw-built nest?
My singing bow shall drive thee hence; begone,
Or to the banks of Alpheus, gulfy stream, grace
Or to the Isthmian grove; there hatch thy young;
All of my stuff is free: I don't try to control people but supply facts to those being taken captive by preachers who deliberately lie about all of the Bible and all of the historical testimony against "music" which is one of the most powerful means ofexercising MIND CONTROL which works--according to history--only among the very lowest of classes and the ignorant. Consistent with all prophecy you EXPECT that the Devil will have his ministers in all institutes of religion which are not WORD-CENTERED and powerful enemies of the dogs and wolves which always marked the perverted, musical religionists who would do ANYTHING to keep from working: even in the sacrificial altars the musicians were called PARASITES and the priests who lifted the lamb up to cut its throat was called a HERETIC.
In PART FOUR I will show that the Old and New Testament identifies all of the MONARCHY added to replace God by the "elders" was to "worship the starry host." The Bible, Jewish encyclopedia and all of the evidence proves that it was STAR WORSHIP and included SERPENT WORSHIP. As such it was a COVENANT WITH DEATH and David had too much blood on his hands even to build God a house when "God cannot be worshipped in temples made with human hands.
and yet Ken can't give a simple answer to a simple question
February 20 2009, 2:40 PM
Alan's simple challenge that Ken is unable to meet: "I want to be able to open a KJV, that this site promotes as the only reliable translation, and read where Jesus says, "Do not use instrumental music in your worship service." I would also like to read where he says, "You are to have a song, a prayer, three more songs, communion, another song, the sermon, and and invitation song.""
And Ray has also asked one more simple challenge that Ken has not yet answered:
Let me say again: Jesus validates Abraham, Moses and the prophets. ALL of the SPIRITUAL THREAD is prophetic. The priests and Levites were imposed to bear the burden of the Tabernacle and the burden of sacrifices AFTER they fell into musical idolatry.
While modern Jews who are not Semites try to deny it, the Bible itself PROPHESIES, REVEALS AND REPUDIATES the worship under the king, priests and warriors as the ENEMY of God. The worship of the starry host because of musical idolatry was under the Levites who were of that tribe but they were also active in Egyptian religion: Miriam was a prophetess or sorcereress of Hathor. It is clear that operations at the NATIONAL (Goyim, Gentile) temple often profaned the Sabbath (a musical concept) but the SPIRITUAL THREAD knew better:
The Puritan character of the rabbinical Sabbath is shown in the aversion, deducible from some laws, to loud noises (instance Simeon ben Yona's reproof of his mother for loud talking), clapping of hands, striking with a hammer, trumpet-calls, and music ( While to some of the more ascetic rabbis any loud demonstration of joy undoubtedly approached irreverence and impiety, it may be noted that the minor reasons adduced in regard to music (lest musicians might be tempted to make or repair instruments, or the estimate of music as "labor," not "art")
If God turned the Israelites over to worship the starry host (Acts 7 etal) and Chiun was Saturn (identified often as the sun) then who can debate:
Iamblichus, an Sssyrian Neoplatonist Philosopher who determined the role of paganism in the church:
In addition to these things you remark as follows: "So also certain others of these ecstatics become entheast or inspired when they hear cymbals, drums, or some choral chant, 21 as, for example, those who are engaged in the Korybantic Rites, 22
those who are possessed at the Sabazian festival and those who are celebrating the Rites of the Divine Mother." 23 described by the Apostle Paul in the first Epistle to the Corinthians. "If," says he, "the whole assembly come together to the same place and all prattle in tongues, and common men should come in, or unbelievers, will they not say that you are raving?"
Hence he counsels that only two or three should speak in turn, and one interpret; but if nobody present is capable of this, they should keep silence, and speak only to themselves and to God: "for not of tumult is he a god, but of tranquillity." (Ovid; Fasti IV, "The attendants beat the brass, and the hoarse-sounding hides. Cymbals they strike in place of helmets, tambourines for the shields; the pipe yielded its Phrygian notes.")
There is evidently a deeper meaning in all this than is commonly apprehended.
22. The Korybantes are variously described. Their cult was identified or closely allied to that of the Kabeirian divinities, and that of the Great Mother. It was celebrated in the islands of the Aegean Sea and in Phygia. Music, dancing, processions, and ecstatic frenzy were characteristics.
23. Sabazios, Sabaoth, or Sabbat, the god of the Planet Saturn, was better known as Bacchus or Dionysos, and was also styled in Semitic countries, Iao or Yava. His worship was more or less associated and identified with that of the Great Mother, under various designations, and it was characterized by phallephoric processions, dances, mourning for the slain divinity, and the Watch Night. It came from Assyria as its peculiar symbols, the ivy or kissos, the spotted robe or Nimr, and the Thyrso, indicate. The name Zagreus the Kissos and nimr remind us of Kissaia or Asiatic Ethiopia, and the Zagros mountains occupied by the Nimr. Assyria was called "the land of Nimrod." -Amos VIII.
Again, why doubt it because God ABANDONED the national sacrificial system and the 'musicians' who PROPHESIED engaged in the practices defined above.
Thus "Bacchus was directly called upon," he says. The Sabazian worship was Sabbatic; the names Evius, or Hevius, and Luaios are identical with Hivite and Levite. The French name Louis is the Hebrew Levi;
ALL RELIGIOUS OPERATIVES WERE CALLED PARASITES
Parasitus (parasitos, table companion). A word which among the Greeks denoted originally the priest's assistant, who, like the priest, received his support from the offerings made to the temple, in return for certain services. These services included the collection and care of supplies of corn due to the temple, assistance at certain sacrifices, and the preparation of the banquets connected with [p. 1175] certain festivals. The assistants of civil officials, who were maintained at the expense of the State, were also called parasites in many places. The word received another meaning in the Middle and New Greek comedy, where it means the hanger on, who plays the flatterer and buffoon, with a view to getting invited to dinner. The parasite was transferred as a standing character to the Roman imitations of Greek comedy, and figures largely in the plays of Plautus. Good examples of the stage parasite will be found in his Captivi Menaechmi Phormio of Terence.
If God did not command but imposed the work of the Levites BECAUSE of musical idolatry which caused Him to TURN THE OVER to worship the pagan Gods such as Molelch and Chiun (Saturn=666) and the prophets call them robbers and parasites WHY DOUBT that this is the truth.
Plutarch: what god is worshipped by the Jews: When all the company requested and earnestly begged it of him; first of all (says he), the time and manner of the greatest and most holy solemnity of the Jews is exactly agreeable to the holy rites of Bacchus; for that which they call the Fast they celebrate in the midst of the vintage, furnishing their tables with all sorts of fruits while they sit under tabernacles made of vines and ivy; and the day which immediately goes before this they call the day of Tabernacles.
Within a few days after they celebrate another feast, not darkly but openly, dedicated to Bacchus, for they have a feast amongst them called Kradephoria, from carrying palm-trees, and Thyrsophoria, when they enter into the temple carrying thyrsi.
What they do within I know not; but it is very probable that they perform the rites of Bacchus. First they have little trumpets, such as the Grecians used to have at their Bacchanalia to call upon their gods withal.
Others go before them playing upon harps, which they call Levites, whether so named from Lusius or Evius,--either word agrees with Bacchus. And I suppose that their Sabbaths have some relation to Bacchus; for even now many call the Bacchi by the name of Sabbi, and they make use of that word at the celebration of Bacchus's orgies.
And this may be discovered out of Demosthenes and Menander. Nor would it be out of place, were any one to say that the name Sabbath was given to this feast from the agitation and excitement [Greek omitted] which the priests of Bacchus display.
So in the nocturnal ceremonies of Bacchus (as the fashion is amongst us), they make use of music, and call the god's nurses [Greek omitted].
High up on the wall of their temple is a representation of the thyrsus and timbrels, which surely suits no other god than Bacchus.
In day-time you marshalled your gallant throng of bacchanals through the public streets, their heads garlanded with fennel and white poplar; and, as you went, you squeezed the fat-cheeked snakes, or brandished them above your head, now shouting your Euoi Saboi! now footing it to the measure of Hyes Attes! Attes Hyes!--saluted by all the old women with such proud titles as Master of the Ceremonies, Fugleman, Ivy-bearer, Fan-carrier; and at last receiving your recompense of tipsy-cakes, and cracknels, and currant-buns. With such rewards who would not rejoice greatly, and account himself the favorite of fortune?
That is exactly the meaning of David's PRAISE word.
Therefore, when you SEE and HEAR that taking place in the pseudo-church you know that JESUS IS WINNOWING by a baptism of spirit (wind) so He can give the baptism of FIRE.
Ezekiel in chapter 8 identifies this worship in the temple and in chapter 33 identifies what Jesus called "hypocrites" as speakers, singers and instrument players.
The false teachers promoting the use of instrumental music as long as we have a good mental attitude do not grasp that first Israel and then Judah set up the worship used at Mount Sinai which asked God to let them be led like pagans and worship like pagans.
That pant after the dust of the earth on the head of the poor,
.........and turn aside the way of the meek:
.........and a man and his father will go in unto the same maid, to profane my holy name: Amos 2:7
Profane includes both prostitution and music because they went together in pagan worship:
Chalal (h2490) khaw-lal'; a prim. root [comp. 2470]; prop. to bore, i. e. (by impl.) to wound, to dissolve; fig. to profane (a person, place or thing), to break (one's word), to begin (as if by an "opening wedge"); denom. (from 2485) to play (the flute): - begin (* men began), defile, * break, defile, * eat (as common things), * first, * gather the grape thereof, * take inheritance, pipe, player on instruments, pollute, (cast as) profane (self), prostitute, slay (slain), sorrow, stain, wound.
Amos 2:8 And they lay themselves down upon
.........clothes laid to pledge by every altar,
.........and they drink the wine of the condemned in the house of their god.
Ye that put far away the evil day, and cause the seat of violence to come near; Amos 6:3
.........That lie upon beds of ivory, and stretch themselves upon their couches,
.........and eat the lambs out of the flock,
.........and the calves out of the midst of the stall; Amos 6:4
That chant [scatter words, i.e. prate] to the sound of the viol,
.........and invent to themselves instruments of musick , like David; Amos 6:5
.........That drink wine in bowls, and anoint themselves with the chief ointments:
.........but they are not grieved for the affliction of Joseph. Amos 6:6
Therefore now shall they go captive with the first that go captive,
.........and the banquet of them that stretched themselves shall be removed. Amos 6:7
WHICH ONES OF THAT COULD YOU DO IN THE CHURCH IF YOU WERE SINCERE?
The Mirzach like the Agape was an ancient musical and perverted worship of the dead. In history when you sang the songs of a dead person you worshipped the dead. That is why the direct command to sing (?) "that which is written" because Jesus is not DEAD.
.........Mirzach (h4797) meer-zakh'; from an unused root mean. to scream; a cry, i. e. (of joy), a revel: - banquet.
.........Marzeach (h4798) mar-zay'-akh; formed like 4797; a cry, i. e. (of grief) a lamentation: - mourning.
.........For thus saith the Lord, Enter not into the house of mourning,
......... neither go to lament nor bemoan them:
.........for I have taken away my peace from this people,
............... saith the Lord, even lovingkindness and mercies. Je.16:5
"The marzeah had an extremely long history extending at least from the 14th century B.C. through the Roman period. In the 14th century B.C., it was prominently associated with the ancient Canaanite city of Ugarit (modern Ras Shamra), on the coast of Syria... The marzeah was a pagan ritual that took the form of a social and religious association... Some scholars regard the funerary marzeah as a feast for--and with--deceased ancestors (or Rephaim, a proper name in the Bible for the inhabitants of Sheol)." (King, Biblical Archaeological Review, Aug, 1988, p. 35, 35)
"These five elements are: (1) reclining or relaxing, (2) eating a meat meal, (3) singing with harp or other musical accompaniment, (4) drinking wine and (5) anointing oneself with oil." (King, p. 37).
"Worship was form more than substance; consequently, conduct in the marketplace was totally unaffected by worship in the holy place. Amos spoke from the conviction that social justice is an integral part of the Mosaic covenant, which regulates relations not only between God and people, but also among people." (King, p. 44).
"In pagan traditions, musical instruments are invented by gods or demi-gods, such as titans. In the Bible, credit is assigned to antediluvian patriarchs, for example, the descendants of Cain in Genesis 4:21. There is no other biblical tradition about the invention of musical instruments." (Freedman, David Noel, Bible Review, Summer 1985, p. 51).
I believe that David was not authorized by the Lord to introduce that multitude of musical instruments into the Divine worship of which we read,
and I am satisfied that his conduct in this respect is most solemnly reprehended by this prophet;
and I farther believe that the use of such instruments of music, in the Christian Church,
is without the sanction and against the will of God;
that they are subversive of the spirit of true devotion, and that they are sinful.
If there was a woe to them who invented instruments of music, as did David under the law, is there no woe, no curse to them who invent them, and introduce them into the worship of God in the Christian Church?
This was also the view of the Presbyterians who wrote some of the best information repudiating the use of instruments long before the Restoration Movement.
The Qahal, synagogue or church in the wilderness was NOT part of the Civil-Priestly-Military complex any more than using the Marine Corp Band at the National Cathedral has anything to do because of SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE.
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers,
he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col. 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you
.........in meat,
.........or in drink,
.........or in respect of an holyday,
.........or of the new moon,
.........or of the sabbath days:
Col. 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
A shadow is NOT God's old, failed plan of salvation: the Law including the Sabbaths were imposed BECAUSE of transgression to PREVENT people from going to pagan worship services on the Sabbath considered an evil day.
A Shadow is something truly Evil:
G4639 skia skee'-ah Apparently a primary word; shade or a shadow (literally or figuratively
[darkness of error or an adumbration]):--shadow.
Skia
2. reflection, image (in a bowl of oil), Sch.Il.17.755.
3. shade of one dead, phantom, Od.10.495, A.Th.992,
of worthless things, that phantom at Delphi, . mere shadows of .
4. evil spirit, Hippiatr.130, PMasp.188.5
also, of one worn to a shadow, A.Eu.302;
Speaking of the religious ritual condemned by Amos and others we note that:
Of the prophecy of the seed of David: Jesus Christ:
Paul quotes Isaiah 28 when repudiating the "tongues"" and "singing" out of their own spirit in Corinth:
.........We have made a covenant with death, [Marzeah in Amos re wine, women and music]
.........and with hell are we at agreement;
.........when the overflowing scourge shall pass through,
.........it shall not come unto us:
.........for we have made lies our refuge,
.........and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
Is. 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD,
.........Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone,
.........a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation:
.........he that believeth shall not make haste.
Make Haste: 2363. chuwsh, koosh; a primitive root; to hurry; figuratively, to be eager with excitement or enjoyment:(make) haste(-n), ready
Paul explained it this way:
Gal. 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants;
.........the one from the mount Sinai,
.........which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal. 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia,
.........and answereth to Jerusalem which now is,
.........and is in bondage with her children.
Gal. 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal. 4:27 For it is written,
.........Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry,
.........thou that travailest not: for the desolate
.........hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Gal. 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
John who called the speakers, singers and instrument players sorcerers aqdded:
Rev. 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city,
.........which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
This COVENANT WITH DEATH is defined by AMOS and is condemned because it imitated what David planned to do for the future temple.
You cannot read Acts without knowing that
God promised David a TENT
But, Solomon built God a HOUSE
But, God is not worshipped in houses built by human hands or by the works of human hands.
In part FIVE I will look at:
I'm also curious about your thoughts on the 288 Levite musicians David employed for worship. (1 Chronicles 25:1-7)
The Bible is a library: that means that it includes all kinds of literature but not all of it is a patternism for the spiritual world. The king, kingdom, temple and clergy were part of the Temple-State which was permitted as punishment when the elders fired God. Jesus is not fond of Scribes and it was the scribes who kept a HISTORICAL record of the civil government. On the other hand, the spiritual people attended synagogue to "rest, read and rehearse" the Word of God: that never changed for one second and no one violated that common knowledge and decency until singing was added as an ACT in 373: this split the church and opened the church up to self-composed songs VIOLATING many direct commands.
This is David's Michtam or engraving or written poem: poems or songs were personal property and one's personal poetry or prayers do not constitute a commanded patternism for others. In that area, private songs were never to be used by others until the composer was dead and they became part of the "catalog."
The view throughout the Old and New Testament is that spiritual truth is delivered onlly through the prophets: Jesus acknowledged Abraham, Moses and the Prophets guided by the Spirit of Christ (1 Pet 1:11 etc.)
Most psalms are "warrior chants" and used by the military to drive the enemy into panic: the spiritual people NEVER ONCE sang congregationally with instrumental accompaniment. Therefore they are NOT inspired as PATTERNS TO BE IMITATED but to be SPOKEN to teach and admonish. We can study Psalm 137 but why do you not use it as authority for a "bashing out the heads of baby" ceremonial legalism? David said that God loved him because he was sinlessly perfect: that is the revealed statement but it is NOT inspired by the Spirit of Christ.
David was the king and would have been killed if he had gone into the Holy Place--as a type of the Body or Church of Christ--with or without his harp.
Psalm 57 is not a Mizmor and therefore not used as a "worship" song and not included in "psalms, hymns and spiritual songs" which Paul commanded be SPOKEN.
Psalm 57:1 (To the chief Musician, Al-taschith, Michtam of)
(David, when he fled from Saul in the cave.)
If anyone has to run and hide in a cave then I see no reason not to take along all of the instruments you wish: David was not a worship leader that the APPROVED PATTERNISM would be to, like David always, play the instruments in private and not during the "school of the Bible" where the Spirit of Christ outlawed it for the synagogue.
BE merciful unto me, O God, be merciful unto me: for my soul trusteth in thee: yea,
........in the shadow of thy wings will I make my refuge,
........until these calamities be overpast.
Psalm 57:2 I will cry unto God most high; unto God that performeth all things for me.
Psalm 57:3 He shall send from heaven, and save me from the reproach of him that would swallow me up. Selah.
........God shall send forth his mercy and his truth.
Scholars have noted that Selah is a pause: no one sang and played at the same time. One would recite a verse and then "signal a pause for meditation."
Psalm 57:4 My soul is among lions: and I lie even among them that are set on fire,
........even the sons of men, whose teeth are spears and arrows, and their tongue a sharp sword
Psalm 57:5 Be thou exalted, O God, above the heavens; let thy glory be above all the earth.
Psalm 57:6 They have prepared a net for my steps; my soul is bowed down:
........they have digged a pit before me,
........into the midst whereof they are fallen themselves. Selah.
Psalm 57:7 My heart is fixed, O God, my heart is fixed: I will sing and give praise.
Psalm 57:8 Awake up, my glory; awake, psaltery and harp: I myself will awake early. [I will awaken the Dawn}
We might doubt that David had a literal psaltery and harp with him: if so:
"The name of psaltery entered Christian literature in the 3rd century B.C. translation of the Old Testament called the Septuagint where, in the Psalms, nebel was translated psalterion. Thus, Nebuchadnezzar's idolatrous ensemble included the Aramic psantria. Notice, also, that the book of Psalms has also become known as the Psalter (or psalterium), from the hymns sung with this harp.
Nebel (h5035) neh'-bel; or nebel nay'-bel; from 5034; a skin- bag for liquids (from collapsing when empty); hence a vase (as similar in shape when full); also a lyre (as having a body of like form): - bottle, pitcher, psaltery, vessel, viol
Nabel (h5034) naw-bale'; a prim. root; to wilt; gen. to fall away, fail, faint; fig. to be foolish or (mor.) wicked; causat. to despise, disgrace: - disgrace, dishonour, lightly esteem, fade (away, - ing), fall (down, -ling, off), do foolishly, come to nought, * surely, make vile, wither..
In many of the ancient documents from Babylon and other nations, the gods were believed to be inside of musical instruments which were made into the form of a bull (harp). The sounds of the strings was sold to be the voice of the god inside of the idols which even had "speaking tubes" so the manipulator could "discover" the needs of the worshipper and have the idol speak the answer to them (This was before radio).
However, Habakkuk pronounced:
Woe unto him that saith to the wood, Awake; to the dumb stone, Arise, it shall teach Behold, it is laid over with gold and silver, and there is no breath at all in the midst of it. Habakkuk 2:19
But the Lord is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him. Habakkuk 2:20
All pagans believed that a musical instrument WAS a god or was the HOME of a god: that is why Africans baptize their drums and the Catholics baptize their organs and bells.
John Hyrcannus SILENCED all of thes awakening Psalms as pagan.
We even have a mention at a later date of a similar custom in connection with the cult in Jerusalem, where certain Levites, called me'oreim, 'AROUSERS,' sang (every morning?) this verse from-"Ps 44:23: "Awake, O Lord! Why do you sleep? Rouse yourself! Do not reject us forever." The Talmud tells us that John Hyrcanus suppressed the practice because it recalled too readily a pagan custom." (Roland de Vaux, p. 247).
Because David as king was part of a cursed monarchy abandoned to worship the starry host then no one should ever fall into the trap that David was God's approved PATTERNISM for the MUSIC which was a MARK of that Sabazianism or worship of the Sun, Moon and planets as "wandering stars." Apollo was the SUN god and is Abaddon or Apollyon and the musicians (muses) in Revelation 18 are called sorcerers: so too is the prophesying under the Levites.
Pindar, Neaman Ode. Pi.N.9.50 9.[1 Pindar 9:[1] Muses, we will go in victory procession from Apollo's shrine in Sicyon to newly-founded Aetna, where the doors flung open wide are overwhelmed by guests, at the prosperous home of Chromius. Make a sweet song of verses! For, mounting his chariot of victorious horses, he gives the word to sing for the mother and her twin children [5] who jointly watch over steep Pytho. [6] There is a saying among men: a noble deed when it is accomplished should not be buried silently in the ground; and divine song is suited to boasting. But we will wake the shouting lyre and the flute in honor of the very pinnacle of horse-contests, which Adrastus established for Phoebus [Apollo, Apollyon] by the streams of the Asopus.
Psalms Delitzsch
Moreover, we must take into consideration the facts that the compass of the tenor extends even into the soprano, that the singers were of different ages down to twenty years of age, and that Oriental, and more particularly even Jewish, song is fond of falsetto singing
The psaltery also was an instrument
The PATTERNISM of the sacrificial musicians called parasites was OUTSIDE of the holy places and in the slaughter pen. That would be an approved example to put the musicians OUT of the Holy Place (church) and make them perform in the parking Lot.
Psalm 57 is David on the rune and hiding out in a cave: that would be a NECESSARY INFERENCE if you use this as a pettern.
Wouldn't it be better if true evangelists spent more time just studying these proof texts?
The only fact is there should never be but one Part of any topic of conversation where Ken is concerned. Why? Because any one who reads it is already in a Coma by the end of Part one! Wow! I now know where the term MUMBOJUMBO found its origin! The Bible is not that complicated, God is not that hard to know, and Christ's message is not so confusing! I think that Ken falls into the failing trend of conservative mindsets that to be right I must appear, APPEAR, to have a better understanding than anyone else. Which in turn he makes what he talks about simply to crazy and to difficult to grasp. If someone can't figure it out then it must be right! How do I know this? Because I was Ken growing up when I just spewed out whatever the pulpit preacher told me was right. Thank goodness I found out how to read the Bible with an open mind and more importantly an open heart. I really felt the grace of God come into my life and felt real love.
Two TYPES of text: The Civil-Clergy-destructive Vs the Spiritual
February 21 2009, 6:28 PM
The question about Psalm 57 and the AWAKENING discussion continues: For readers I wil say again that the EVIL THREAD which included king, kingdom, animal slaughter with the Levites from Levius or Dionysus and exorcism music is recorded "for our learning but not for out patternism" by the Scribes. On the other hand, the Spirit of Christ speaks to the SPIRITUAL THREAD through the prophets who repudiate the musical world and use words which define the Babylonian or national worship TO WHICH God had abandoned them even in Egypt.
THOSE WHO KNEW THE PROPHETS WERE READY TO BE BAPTIZED: The Spirit of Christ identified the Word as FREE and defined the true REST as excluding doing our own pleasures or even speaking our own words: in the prophets and in person Jesus MARKED the slick speakers, singers and instrument players as HYPOCRITES. Therefore, the teaching of Christ in the prophets is still commanded by Peter as that which we should pay attention to until the "Day star rises in our heart" or until that which is perfect sinks through.
Therefore, when people pull up the proof texts as authority for the school of the Bible even when it is clearly defines as EXORCISM in all sacrificial systems and performed by those they called PARASITES, we know that exposing them to the CONTEXT will be like shining a bright light into Dracula's coffin. Nevertheless, we are called to witness and NOT to convert which all of the evidence proves will be impossible.
Jeremiah speaking for Christ writes:
Jer. 2:8 The priests said not, Where is the LORD? and they that handle the law knew me not:
........the pastors also transgressed against me, and the prophets prophesied by Baal, and walked after things that do not profit.
Jer. 7:9 Will ye steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto Baal,
........and walk after other gods whom ye know not;
Jer. 7:10 And come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name,
........and say, We are delivered to do all these abominations?
Jer. 8:4 Moreover thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD;
........Shall they fall, and not arise? shall he turn away, and not return?
Jer. 8:5 Why then is this people of Jerusalem slidden back by a perpetual backsliding?
........they hold fast deceit, they refuse to return.
Jer. 8:6 I hearkened and heard, but they spake not aright: no man repented him of his wickedness,
........saying, What have I done? every one turned to his course, as the horse rusheth into the battle.
Jer. 8:7 Yea, the stork in the heaven knoweth her appointed times;
........and the turtle and the crane and the swallow observe the time of their coming; but my people know not the judgment of the LORD.
Jer. 8:8 How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is WITH US?
........LO, CERTAINLY IN VAIN MADE HE IT;
........THE PEN OF THE SCRIBES IS in vain.
HERE DEFINES THE PREACHERS WHO LIE ABOUT ALL OF THE MUSIC PASSAGES.
8267. sheqer, sheh-ker; from 8266; an untruth; by implication, a sham (often adverbial): without a cause, deceit(-ful), false(-hood, -ly), feignedly, liar, + lie, lying, vain (thing), wrongfully.
8266. shaqar, shaw-kar´; a primitive root; to cheat, i.e. be untrue (usually in words):fail, deal falsely, lie.
JESUS HAD LOTS OF NASTY WORDS FOR THE SCRIBES
Matt. 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall
........exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees,
........ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Matt. 20:18 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed
........unto the chief priests and unto the scribes,
........and they shall condemn him to death,
Matt. 20:19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock [musically], and to scourge, and to crucify him:
........and the third day he shall rise again.
Prospaizo jest or sport (clap) make fun of, II. c. acc., theous p. sing to the gods, sing in their praise or honour
Matt. 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
........for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves,
........neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Matt. 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
........for ye devour widows houses, and for a pretence make long prayer:
................ therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Matt. 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes:
........and some of them ye shall kill and crucify;
........and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues,
........and persecute them from city to city:
Matt. 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth,
........from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias,
........whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
WHO ARE THE HYPOCRITES
Hypokrites (g5273) hoop-ok-ree-tace'; from 5271; an actor under an assumed character (stage-player), i.e. (fig.) a dissembler ("hypocrite"): - hypocrite.
Hupokrino reply, make answer, of an oracle, 2. expound, interpret, explain [Peter outlawed this as private interpretation.] 2. deliver a speech, declaim, of orators and rhetoricians, represent dramatically, erotikon dramaton 3. of an orator, use histrionic arts, exaggerate, ape, mimic, Mania or religious frenzy.
Rhetor-ikos , on, oratorical, he rhetorike (sc. techne). These are the craftsmen lumped with the singers, musicians and "grinder" doing merchandise in the house of prayer. Rev. 18:22
LATIN: canto I. Neutr., to produce melodious sounds (by the voice or an instrument), to sound, sing, play (class. in prose and poetry; to sing and play while the actor accompanies the song with gestures or dancing, C. Transf., of instruments, to sound, resound: 2. Of the singing pronunciation of an orator, to declaim in a singing tone, to sing. Of the cock crowing of the Galli. A.Prophetic or oracular song, B. An incantation, charm, magic song, etc.: cantusque artesque magorum.
BACK TO JEREMIAH speaking of the wise who are ashamed.
Jer. 8:9 The wise MEN ARE ASHAMED, THEY ARE DISMAYED AND TAKEN: LO, THEY HAVE REJECTED THE WORD OF THE LORD; and what wisdom is in them?
Jer. 8:10 Therefore will I give their wives unto others, and their fields to them that shall inherit them: for every one from the least even unto the greatest is given to covetousness, from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely.
Jer. 8:11 For they have healed the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.
Jer. 8:12 Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore shall they fall among them that fall: in the time of their visitation they shall be cast down, saith the LORD.
The WISE to be EXCLUDED in 1 Corinthians 1 along with the podiums and "collectors of shekels" or Canaanites from the Church, are the sophists who by definition use "music" to make themseleves SEEM to be wise but the spiritual see the mark of the beast--gender confused.
The inspired for the CARNAL thread means that the accounts of the SCRIBES are preserved for us to see the evil taking place in modern churches overgrown with HYPOCRITES meaning anyone who performs as a rhetorician, singer or musician John identifies as SORCERERS. Furthermore, he says they are lusted after FRUITS as ministers of the BABYLON MOTHER OF HARLOTS. Today, she is named ZOE.
CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA WHOM THE FALSE PREACHERS LIE ABOUT
"There are hints that Pan was also linked closely to the Mother Goddess (Zoe, Eve, Sophia), and perhaps was even one of her male consorts at one time, and linked with her as overlord of nature and Lord of the Beasts.
Pindar mentions Pan as: "O blessed one, whom the Olympians call dog (catamite) of the Great Mother, taking every form"
"There are references to Pan as 'the dog of Cybele' the great nature-goddess of the Greeks, as being always in attendance on her, being himself a nature-god. The fact that Pindar calls Pan 'dog' is taken as a glorification of that animal.
"The story remains in old legends [700] that Pan, the keeper of wild beasts, breathing sweet-voiced music on his well-joined pipes, once brought from its tender mother on Argive hills a lamb with beautiful golden fleece. A herald stood on the stone platform and cried aloud,
"To assembly, Mycenaeans, go to assembly to see the omens given to our blessed rulers." . . . and they honored the house of Atreus. "
Sophocles Electra: The Athenians believed that wine could be offered to Pan, but not to the Nymphs (unless he was present too). Is this an indication of what was to come
........where Dionysus took over the role of Wine-God,
........and included Bacchus (as well as Pan) in his retinue?
"Menander says that Pan was NOT a God that was approached in worship in silence.
........His love of music and dance, dictated that his worship include those elements,
........including clapping,
........and the sound of cymbals.
Individual offerings found have included vases, oil lamps (at the cave at Vari in Attica), golden grasshoppers
........and reliefs - one of which at least shows Pan
........outside a cave in front of his worshipers,
........playing the Syrinx, and accompanied by Hermes,
........three Nymphs and the river Achelous.
Musical Ministers get revealed when they let their himation drag.
It is EXACTLY a COMA God puts you into as a strong delusion when you refused to be a student of the Word .
Ken is still incapable of a simple answer to simple questions
February 22 2009, 2:44 PM
Alan's simple challenge that Ken is unable to meet: "I want to be able to open a KJV, that this site promotes as the only reliable translation, and read where Jesus says, "Do not use instrumental music in your worship service." I would also like to read where he says, "You are to have a song, a prayer, three more songs, communion, another song, the sermon, and and invitation song.""
And Ray has also asked one more simple challenge that Ken has not yet answered:
"Is Psalm 57 and Psalm 108 inspired by God?"
Ken's long-winded distracdtions remond me of the Pharisses when Jesus asked themn a simple straight-forward question. I am making a paraphrase to make relevant and to illustrate Ken's refusal to answer:
"When He entered the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came to Him while He was teaching, and said, "By what authority are You doing instrumentatl music, and who gave You this authority?" Jesus said to them, "I will also ask you one thing, which if you tell Me, I will also tell you by what authority I do these things. "Is Psalm 57 and Psalm 108 inspired by God or by by man?" And they began reasoning among themselves, saying, "If we say, `By God,' He will say to us, `Then why did you not believe wat God has inspired?' "But if we say, `By man,' we fear the people; for we want them to regard our website as if it described God's pattern." And answering Jesus, they said, "We will not give you a striaght answer but instead will fill the air with many confusing and irrelevant words." He also said to them, "Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things."
Sorry: I am not the guy to address simple minds :-)
February 22 2009, 8:37 PM
God abandoned Israel to "worship the starry host" according to Stephen and all known evidence. That means that the Monarchy was a gentile-like nation and the temple and the sacrificial system was identical to that of Babylon or Tyre That is why all of the "music guilds" had Canaanite names!
When the WARS were over David had a surplus of Warrior Musicians so he organized a Works Project Administration to keep the mustered out Levites from revolting. Even then they had to rotate and were FED only when on duty.
Stephen said:
........God promised David a TENT
........But, Solomon built God a HOUSE
........But, God is not worshipped in HOUSES built by human hands or by the works of human hands.
That is why NO ONE ever held worship services in the Temple--as your false preacher told you. If a singer or musician went into the Holy Place they would be instantly exocuted. Contrary to what you have fallen for, David did not command instrumental music for the Church of Christ: David was old bloody hands not even fit to build a HOUSE in which God WOULD NOT DWELL or BE WORSHIPPED.
That is why if you ever find an Ekklesia or School of the Bible the preacher will also know chapter 15.
1Chr. 15:19 So the singers, Heman, Asaph, and Ethan, were appointed to sound with cymbals of brass;
SOUND is not music but a noise saying "pay attention."
CYMBALS:
6750. = tsalal, tsaw-lal´; a primitive root (identical with 6749 through the idea of vibration); to tinkle, i.e. rattle together (as the ears in reddening with shame, or the teeth in chattering with fear): quiver, tingle.
6767. tslatsal, tsel-aw-tsal´; from 6750 reduplicated; a clatter, i.e. (abstractly) whirring (of wings); (concretely) a cricket; also a harpoon (as rattling), a cymbal (as clanging):--cymbal, locust, shadowing, spear.
CYMBALS AND THE TAMBOURINE WERE WOMEN'S INSTRUMENTS: Hell, Topheth, is named after the Tambourine.
Tympanotriba , ae, m., = tumpanotribęs, I. a taborer, a timbrel-player, a term of reproach for a soft, effeminate person (alluding to the priests of Cybele), Plaut. Truc. 2, 7, 49; cf. tympanum.
This is the Mother Goddess: in the warning of Paul restricting raising ARMS, hoping that they would let the KNIFE SLIP was to PROVE that the wrath or orge was the musical ritual of perverts.
T. Maccius Plautus, Truculentus, or The Churl
STRATOPHANES (to PHRONESIUM.) What say you? Why have you dared to say that you love another man?
PHRONESIUM I chose to.
STRATOPHANES Say you so, indeed? I'll first make trial of that. Do you, for the sake of such a shabby present, vegetables, and comestibles, and vinegar-water, bestow your love upon an effeminate, frizzle-pated, dark-haunt frequenting, drum-drubbing debauchee, a fellow not worth a nutshell:
........6 Is he deranged: "Hariolus." Literally, "a soothsayer," or "diviner." In their prophetic frenzy,
........these persons often had the appearance of being mad, and were so considered.
........7 Drum-drubbing debauchee: "Typanotriba." Literally, "drum," or "tambourine beater."
........He alludes to the eunuch-priests of Cybele, who used to beat tambourines in her procession-probably
........in allusion to debauchees, emasculated by riot and dissipation
That is why "don't get drunk on wine" before you SPEAK the text often appears as "getting fluted down with wine."
Sistrum, a metallic rattle which was used by the Egyptians in celebrating the rites of Isis, and in other lascivious festivals,.Ov. Am. 2, 13, 11 By the Jews, Vulg. 1 Reg. [Samuel] 18, 6 .--Hence sarcastically, as if used for a war - trumpet by the wanton Cleopatra Verg. A.8.696 Luc. 10.63
CY´MBALUM The cymbal was a very ancient instrument, and unquestionably came from the East, where among other nations it was familiar to the Jews (see Dict. of Bible, s. v.). It is represented in a Phoenician bronze from Cyprus, now in the Cesnola collection at New York (D. and S. i. 1697 a). We find sacred trees depicted with cymbals hung on them as votive offerings, so as to be blown about by the wind (Guhl and Koner, p. 5, fig. 1). Among the Greeks and Romans they were especially used in orgiastic rites of Eastern origin, like those of Cybele (Pind. fragm. 48 = 79 Bergk4; Lucret. ii. 618; Catull. lxiii. 29; Verg. Georg. iv. 64; Propert. iv. 7, 61; Ov. Fast. iv. 213) and Dionysus (Aesch. fragm. cit.; Liv. xxxix 8 fin., 10), as well as in the Eleusinian mysteries of Demeter and Cora (Pind. Isthm. vi. 3; Clem. Alex. Protrept. 2, § 15, p. 14; Schol. Aristoph. Acharn. 708). It will be noticed how constantly, in these passages, the cymbal and the tympanum are coupled together. Art monuments tell the same tale as literature, both as to the joint use of the two instruments and the deities in whose worship they occur. A cymbal figured in Daremberg and Saglio (i. 1697 b) is a votive offering to Cora.
If Jehovah turned them over to worship the starry host then they were NOT worshiping our God but these Babylonian etal "gods."
The Pope's Eunuchs [beginning of text] meaning A CAPPELLA FELLAS.
http://www.piney.com/MuPraiseTeamAcap.html One of the vices which the Spaniards had brought to Italy in the 16 century along with the Borgia family and the Spanish Roman Emperors was the falsetto singer. There were artists who could sing falsetto with distinction, but as the opera gained in popularity in Italy the practice began of emasculating boys with good voices and retaining them as male soprani or, as the Italians, with their usual lack of Christian reticence about sex called them, the castrati. They were in every opera in the 18th century, but foreign visitors were never reconciled to them. The famous English weekly, The Spectator, wrote about "the shrill celestial whine of eunuchs," and by the end of the 18th century they began to fade out of the opera-house.
These were the a cappella: when it became illegal to castrate the "worship leaders" men began to compose what they called "trousers songs." the few males who could sing in the high imitation of the castrati took over. It has been observed that "praise singers" the OLDEST PROFESSION get to the point that their voice is always effeminate.
1Chr. 15:20 And Zechariah, and Aziel, and Shemiramoth, and Jehiel, and Unni, and Eliab, and Maaseiah, and Benaiah, with psalteries on Alamoth
Ray could tell you that NOT BEFORE God abandoned the king and kingdom to worship like the pagans, ONLY FEMALES did what David is commanding for his WARRIOR MUSICIANS. THEREFORE, lusting for David as proof text OUTS your preferences whether you have caught on or not.
5961. Alamowth, al-aw-moth´; plural of 5959; properly, girls, i.e. the soprano or female voice, perhaps falsetto:--Alamoth.
Psalms Delitzsch
Moreover, we must take into consideration the facts that the compass of the tenor extends even into the soprano, that the singers were of different ages down to twenty years of age, and that Oriental, and more particularly even Jewish, song is fond of FALSETTO singing. We therefore adopt Perret- Gentil's rendering, chant avec voix de femmes, and still more readily Armand de Mestral's, en soprano;/b>
5959. almah, al-maw´; feminine of 5958; a lass (as veiled or private):--damsel, maid, virgin.
The legalists are correct: Jesus never said "thou shalt not perform warrior's PRAISE music" meaning to MAKE SELF VILE in a sexual sense to threaten the enemy.
You will NEVER find any kind of religious "praise music" which is not intended to upset your mind so that you THINK that the evil spirit is a holy spirit. It is not and I appreciate you posting all of the "I have never read the Bible proof texts" but I don't get offended because my job is to WITNESS and your job--if I understand prophecy--is to MOCK. That is a predestianted residue left for anyone who has acceted the music means spiritual worship of a Holy God. I will just send this along so it will be waiting on judgment day.
Re: Ken is still incapable of a simple answer to simple questions
February 23 2009, 10:50 AM
Ray's biblical "paraphrase" takes liberties with Scripture. Why should the chief priests and elders upbraid Jesus for using instruments when the temple already utilized instrumental music in worship at select times? Alright, instruments were used in temple worship in Jesus' day under the Mosaic Law. Does that practice apply today to Christian worship? "What was good for temple worship is good for Christian worship." Does the New Testament say that? Hardly. Most Christians who stubbornly advocate instruments demand to see a New Testament passage that says, "Christians are forbidden to use instruments in worship." That's using the heretical adage of "God didn't say not to." Most advocates of instruments don't bother to see if the New Testament explicitly authorizes instruments in Christian worship as it explicitly does with vocal music (Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16).
Can we apply the heretical adage of "God didn't say not to" and carry instruments or any other practice of the Mosaic Law into Christian worship? The following paragraphs provide the answer. They are taken from an essay written by the Rev. John M'Donald (1843-1933), a Scottish minister in the Reformed Presbyterian Church. I quote this material, because it shows that even Presbyterians knew at one time that instrumental music was not appropriate for Christian worship:
"Let us take the tabernacle first. Do we find any allusion in the Mosaic record to instrumental music in the service of God? We do. Moses was commanded to make two silver trumpets, and we apprehend that in these silver trumpets we have the germ of that instrumental service afterward so fully developed in the temple. These trumpets, however, were always to be used at special seasons, and every allusion in the Scriptures to those instruments in the tabernacle worship is invariably bound up with the ceremonial observances which God appointed. Instrumental music, either singly or conjointly with the music of the voice, in God's praise, apart from sacrificial offerings, we never find. The invariable rule was, Ye shall blow with the trumpets over your burnt offerings. [Numbers 10:10] Take away the burnt offerings, and remove the altars of incense, and you take away all the need for the silver trumpets of Moses.
"We now approach the temple. Here we find instrumental music in the richest abundance. It does not much affect the question whether David from his great love for music and skill in the art was prompted, with God's permission, to introduce the cymbal and the harp, or whether he received a direct command from God to arrange those splendid concerts of temple worship with which his name will ever be associated. We are not disposed to question for one moment that the use of instruments was scriptural under the Old Testament economy. And we must say it does appear plausible when we are told that if the use of instruments was enjoined under the law, and if it is fully employed as a symbolic description of the worship of God in heaven, it cannot justly be excluded from the dispensation that comes between and as it were unites the two. If it was right under David, how is it wrong in these times of gospel liberty?
"In opening up this question we answer that the temple, which was the grand center of Jewish symbolism, has been swept away, not merely by the destructive might of the armies of Rome, but by the verdict of Jesus, who declared by his apostle that though it had been glorious it had no glory by reason of the glory that excelleth [2 Corinthians 3:10]. The temple, as the embodiment of Judaism, had a glory all its own - the glory of exalted song and stupendous melody among the rest; but it all fades away before the surpassing glory of the gospel. And our position is, that without the specific warrant of Christ or his apostles, we have no right to drag the elements of temple worship into the sanctuaries of the gospel dispensation. 'The priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change of the law' [Hebrews 7:12].
"We ask our readers to note the following facts which they will find verified in Old Testament history. Instrumental music in religious worship was employed by command of God only in the temple - we have not a single recorded instance of its being employed either in the synagogue or in the homes of the people; it was always rendered by a special class - the priests and Levites; and it was always rendered in connection with the offering of sacrifices to God. If our readers will consult 2 Chronicles 29:25, they will find these statements fully borne out by that single passage. From all this it is most manifest that instrumental music was one element in an elaborate ceremonial and symbolic worship. We never find it by itself in isolated independence. And those therefore who plead for any one of the usages of the tabernacle or temple, without a divine warrant, plead for too much. If we admit instrumental music into our churches either as worship or as an aid to devotion, on this ground, the same argument will ultimately crowd in upon our simple worship all the 'beggarly elements' of an abrogated ceremonialism."
The bottom line: We are not to carry any remnants of the Mosaic Law (instrumental music, burnt sacrifices, incense, etc.) into Christian worship without the explicit consent of Christ. That consent is not found in the New Testament.
I appreciate your reply, but you missed the point entirely. The point of the parapharsed example was not to promote instruments or defend them. The point was to expose Ken's refusal to answer simple questions as the same as the Pharisees' refusal to answer Jesus' simple question.
If Ken agrees that Psalms 57 and 108 are inspired by Holy God for our instruction and edification, then he destroys his own argument. If Ken disagrees that Psalms 57 and 108 are inspired by Holy God, then he is guilty of declaring a part of the Holy Scriptures as uninspred, and will lose his audience.
Ken is the one who is guilty of changing the praise of David, the man after God's own heart, into something evil.
Yes, Bill understood the point quite well. A person can ask a question and receive an answer. But if the answer is not what the person wants to hear, then as far as that person is concerned, his question wasn't "answered" (according to his preferences). And so it goes with Ray. Go in peace.
No, Bill. Ken has been asked a very simple question - Does he believe Psalms 57 and 108 are inspired by Holy God? All he has done is his usual long-winded, mud-on-the-wall, pre-packaged, non-relevant diatribes. But he has not answered a simple question. The answer is simple - either Psalms 57 and 108 are inspired by Holy God or they are not. I suspect I know why Ken will not answer. It is because he thinks that the praise David offered to Holy God with music and instruments was evil. And that is why he fears to answer a simple question.
Will you answer the simple question? Do you believe Psalms 57 and 108 are inspired by Holy God?
It is amazing to me that we as "Christians" try and write giant manuscripts to try and show our biblical superiority complexes. I too have been guilty of trying to sound much more educated than I need to be.
I believe (my opinion - opinions are like armpits, everyone has a couple and they all stink - quoting a friend of mine) that Jesus would be sick to his stomach by the venom spewed on this and other "Christian" site! That being said, I am going to try and state my thoughts without provoking vomit and let you chew on something.
Quoting from the KJV (a version a don't advocate because of verses like...Deut 33:17, Job 39:9;10, Psalm 22:21; 29:6; 92:10, Isaiah 34:7...to name a few) in the Gospel of Matthew 22:34-40:
"But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together. Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, "Master, which is the great commandment in the law?" Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."
Why do we have to make this difficult, when Jesus took fishermen and tax collectors to take his gospel to the world. FISHERMEN AND TAX COLLECTORS!!!!!! They tried to "catch" Jesus saying something that they could nail him with. They were trying to show their "superior" knowledge of the law (613 laws. 248 positive commands...such as "Do this" and 365 negative commands...such as "Don't do this") These "Men of God" were trying to confuse the man that was God! Huh, isn't it funny that we have not changed. We still try and bind things onto people when Jesus himself has not bound them on anyone.
The Church of Jesus Christ will not grow until websites like this one cease to exist! The Church of Jesus Christ will not grow until we show the world around us that the Creator of all things sent His Son into this world to save them (ALL OF THEM) from an eternal death. Until then we will be as clanging cymbols to the world. Loud and annoying!
May God turn our eyes from ourselves and turn them to Him!
ALL of the MONARCHY, temple, sacrifices, exorcism music was STAR WORSHIP.
February 23 2009, 9:38 PM
RECORDED DOES NOT MEAN INSPIRED or GOD'S COMMAND.
PSALM 57 IS NOT A COMMAND BUT A PERSONAL SONG: the Bible always says that DAVID and others wrote the psalms and the BOOK clearly includes Ugaritic poems even as the Law of Moses includes laws for a CURSED PEOPLE doomed to live under and with CANAANITE laws until they were carried back prepared to live under BABYLONIAN laws.
It is NOT inspired in the sense that it is YOUR command to awaken your LYRE so you can awaken the DAWN.
David was the king over national WORSHIP OF THE STARRY HOSTS.
David's PRAISE word is the same as the word used for LUCIFER.
His PRAISE word means to make yourself vile USED ONLY by women before DAVID.
No Christian would be inclined to twang his harp trying to MAKE THE SUN come up or call God into His temple (us)
Picking isolated proof texts is proof that people DO NTO CARE to be Disciples: that's is why all of the Biblical or UNIVERAL pagan parallels makes you so HOSTILE.
Much less is it a PATTERNISM for you to use to LIE about every instrumental notice and CLAIM that the Spirit told you that this is God's COMMAND to do instrumental praise in the CHURCH: the CHURCH shout down all of the SHADOWS and SKIA means FALSE TEACHINGS. Didn't I tell you that the prophets and Jesus warned about LYING SCRIBES.
ONLY THE PROPHETS speak for the spiritual person. Psalms (not include instruments) as Mizmors are to TEACH andADMONISH and not make an effeminate boy and girl show.
Long before Jesus the CURSE of the sacrificial system had almost ceased and there is no evidence of NOISE when Jesus went into the OUTER COURT far removed from the slaughter house. The JEWS had mostly been replaced by HIRELINGS and the Temple was called HEROD'S TEMPLE and Jesus says what God said of the original temple: "You can look toward the temple when you pray" but we know that the people were OUTSIDE of the gates and God heard from HEAVEN. The priesthood was probably Edomites and therefore a "race of VIPERS" not capable of receiving baptism or hearing Jesus without a parable.
The synagogue was for the citizens: music was outlawed
The Temple was for the "worship of the starry hosts" under the KING and commanders of the army: that is NOT inspired in telling you to "go and do likewise."
Because the false teachers REST on the curse of the Law and the Monarchy, the elders, preachers and artistic performers would die if they ventured in or near the area of animal slaughter.
Furthermore, no Levite, used as Warrior Noise makers and later under the king and commanders of the army--could come near the holy places of the sanctury or they would be executed. The patternism is that if a musician enters into the body of Christ as fulfilment of the Holy Place he / she / it is worthy of death.
Num 18:2 And thy brethren also of the tribe of Levi, the tribe of thy father, bring thou with thee,
........that they may be joined unto thee, and minister unto THEE:
........but thou and thy sons with thee shall minister BEFORE the tabernacle of witness. [never IN]
The synagogue never used noise making instruments.
Later after God terminally abandoned them to "worship the starry host" David used the Levites under the KING and COMMANDERS of the army AROUND but never IN the holy places. David didn't live to see the HOUSE built by human hands.
There are three opinions about the Temple:
David thought that the promise of a TENT meant a house but that HE could not build a house for God as a WARRIOR.
Solomon thought that David could not build the temple until AFTER he had slaughtered all of the people.
God said "Neithe" I am God: I do not DWELL in houses; I am not WORSHIPPED with the works of human hands.
They are all recorded: ONLY ONE IS GOD'S VIEW. Only cherry pickers can believe that God gave David a pattern for a HOUSE when we know that it was built by Hiram the Masonic Architect for the worship of the STARS.
God promised David a TENT
But, God built God a HOUSE
But, God cannot be worshipped in houses made by human hands or the WORKS of human hands {musical instruments are DEFINED as machines for doing hard work}
That means that God promised David a risen TABERNACLE or FAMILY and not a literal HOUSE at a place called Sodom and the Mother of Harlots.
When the HOUSE was dedicated the LOUD NOISE (one note) caused God to SHUT DOWN ACCESS to the symbols of His presence. Jerusalem was almost totally consumed with pagan idolatry and plagued by prostitutes and sodomites plying their trade with instruments: NEVER USED BY MALES before David. The holy prostitutes did their duty IN the temple for many years.
The NOISE MAKERS served the PRIESTS
Not even the priests went under COVERED PLACES
H8334 sharath shaw-rath' A primitive root; to attend as a menial or worshipper; figuratively to contribute to:--minister (unto), (do) serve (-ant, -ice, -itor), wait on.
Num 18:3 And they shall keep thy charge, and the charge of all the tabernacle:
........only they [PRIESTS] shall not come NIGH the vessels of the sanctuary and the altar,
........that neither they, nor ye also, die.
Nadab and Abihu violates several commandments.
All of the non-Levites were called STRANGERS: therefore, if you were not of the tribe of Levi with the assignment to serve you could not even minister to the priests outside of the Temple-proper. Therefore, no member of the "church" could come near the Tabernacle and none of the "ministers" could ENTER it.
"A stranger," that is, one, neither a priest nor a Levite, who should intrude into any departments of the sacred office, should incur the penalty of death. ROBERT JAMIESON
Num 18:4 And they shall be joined unto thee,
........and keep the charge of the tabernacle of the congregation,
........for all the service [hard, legalistic bondage] of the tabernacle:
........and a stranger shall not come nigh unto you.
THE PEOPLE NEVER WORSHIPPED IN THE TABERNACLE: IT WAS NOT A SYNAGOGUE BUT A SYMBOL OF GOD'S PRESENCE NEVER TO BE PINNED DOWN TO ONE LOCATION. Not in the vilest pagan temple could singers and musicians enter into the holy places: that would IMPLY that you and God were on equal foothing.
ALL ISRAELITES NOT OF THE TRIBE OF LEVI WERE EXILED FROM THE TABERNACLE BECAUSE OF MUSICAL IDOLATRY AT MOUNT SINAI.
ONLY THE PRIESTS OF LEVI COULD COME NEAR BUT NOT IN THE HOLY PLACES. Only the High Priest could come before the Most Holy place ONCE A YEAR.
THE LEVITES WHEN GOD NEVER COMMANDED INSTRUMENTS IN THE LAW AND NEVER USED THEM FOR THE TABERNACLE COULD NOT COME NEAR THE HOLY THINGS.
ONLY AFTER THE SET UP KINGS AS A INSULT TO GOD DID THE WAR-SURPLUS LEVITES USE THE NOISE-MAKING INSTRUMENTS OUTSIDE OF THE TEMPLE ONLY AS PART OF THE KING-KINGDOM NATIONAL SACRIFICES.
THE NOISE WAS TO BRING ON "HOLOCAUST" OR THE SLAUGHTER AND BURNING OF THE ANIMALS NEVER COMMANDED BUT IMPOSED. The word prophesying in Jerusalem and in all identical temples the noise is NEVER called worship but was EXORCISM.
THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST COMMANDED THE SYNAGOGUE OR CHURCH IN THE WILDERNESS AND NO ASSSEMBLY OF THE PEOPLE FOR EDUCATION COULD USE VOCAL OR INSTRUMENTAL PRAISE.
The sacrificial system was NEVER the spiritual worship but part of the WRATH DISPELLING curse imposed because of Musical idolatry.
You don't have to be TOO bright to know that the Levites were armed guards PREVENTING any citizen from comming close to anything HOLY: David commandedthe instruments and as millitary KING needed no COMMAND to "musical instruments as machines used primarily in making war." MOST of the psalms were TAUNT songs and none of the true PSALMS or MIZMORS include and instrument.
Num 18:5 And ye shall keep the charge of the sanctuary, and the charge of the altar:
........hat there be NO WRATH any more upon the children of Israel.
Wow! the Levites rather than standing in the holy places claiming to be God by claiming to be mediators are to STAND GUARD even outside of the SLAUGHTER PIT to warn or SLAUGHTER any citizen from coming CLOSE.
Contrary to being a spiritual worship service, the sacrificial system had been imposed and if it were not performed it would bring down God's wrath as punishment due for NOT performing what they had been abandoned to.
Num 18:6 And I, behold, I have taken your brethren the Levites from among the children of Israel:
........to you they are given as a gift for the LORD,
........to do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.
The Levites and no citizen bore the BURDEN of the Tabernacle and bore the BURDEN of animal sacrifices: in effect the priests and noise makers ABSORBED the utter shock and horror of animal slaughter to PROTECT the Holy Tribes from this wratn.
THE SERVICE WAS:
........H5656 abodah abodoh ab-o-daw', ab-o-daw' From H5647 ; work of any kind:--act, bondage, + bondservant, effect, labour, ministering (-try),
........H5647 abad aw-bad' keep in bondage, be bondmen, bond-service, compel, do, dress, ear, execute
This is derived from the Hebrew Abbadown which speaks of destruction in hell: the same Apollo, Abaddon or Apollyon in Revelation who uses dirty adulteresses as MUSES John called SORCERESSES. The PROPHESYING word has the SAME MEANING: the PRAISE word meant to drive people into madness which was part of the Jews SABAZIANISM which was NOT commanded but IMPOSED as a death sentence.
Only select priests could enter into the Holy Place as a type of the church: only the High Priests could serve within the veil once a year.
Num 18:7 Therefore thou and thy sons with thee shall keep your priests office for every thing of the altar,
........and within the veil; and ye shall serve: I have given your priests office unto you as a service of gift:
........and the stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death.
Under the lusted for Law of STAR WORSHIP using David as a proof text NO CHRISTIAN could enter into the Holy Place as church and no Christian could offer up incense as the FRUIT of the lips and come BOLDLY before the Throne of Grace.
That means that there are NO LEVITES either to KILL US if we try to enter or to ACCOMPANY us as we worship in our spirit as the ONLY Most Holy Place.
I KNOW OF NO HISTORICAL LITERATURE--EVEN BY THE LATER KABBALAH WRITERS--WHO BELIEVES THAT THE KING (TO REPLACE GOD) WAS BY HIS PLAN OR WISH BUT AS A CURSE IMPOSED ON PEOPLE SPECIFICIALLY BECAUSE OF MUSICAL IDOLATRY AT MOUNT SINAI AND THE ELDERS "FIRING GOD." YOU CANNOT READ SAMUEL AND BELIEVE THAT IT WAS GOD'S PURPOSE.
ANIMAL SLAUGHTER OR THE EXORCISM MUSIC WAS NEVER CALLED WORSHIP: THE CIVIL-CLERGY LEADERS PRESENT BOWED OR FELL ON THEIR FACE AS THE ONLY THINK CALLED WORSHIP.
What Ken says:
"RECORDED DOES NOT MEAN INSPIRED or GOD'S COMMAND.
PSALM 57 IS NOT A COMMAND BUT A PERSONAL SONG: the Bible always says that DAVID and others wrote the psalms and the BOOK clearly includes Ugaritic poems even as the Law of Moses includes laws for a CURSED PEOPLE doomed to live under and with CANAANITE laws until they were carried back prepared to live under BABYLONIAN laws.
It is NOT inspired in the sense that it is YOUR command to awaken your LYRE so you can awaken the DAWN.
David was the king over national WORSHIP OF THE STARRY HOSTS.
David's PRAISE word is the same as the word used for LUCIFER.
His PRAISE word means to make yourself vile USED ONLY by women before DAVID."
What God says:
"Now you followed my teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, patience, love, perseverance, persecutions, and sufferings, such as happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium and at Lystra; what persecutions I endured, and out of them all the Lord rescued me! Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:10-17, NASB)
Now we can choose to believe Ken, or choose to believe God. Because we can NOT believe both.
Abandonment to Star Worship is NOT God's command for worship.
February 23 2009, 10:40 PM
Facts known by any student of the Bible and confirmed by the Jewish Encyclopedia:
But the Kingdom of Judah in its later period seems to have outdone the Northern Kingdom [Israel] in star-worship." Of Manasseh it is related that he built altars to all the hosts of heaven in the two courts of the house of YHWY, and it seems it was the practice of even Kings before him to appoint priests who offered sacrifices to the Sun, the Moon, the planets, and all the hosts of heaven. Altars for star-worship were built on the roofs of the houses, and horses and chariots were dedicated to the worship of the Sun. (II Kings 21:5; 23:4-5, 11-12) Star-worship continued in Judah until the 18th year of Josiah's reign (621 B.C.) when the King took measures to abolish all kinds of idolatry. But although star-worship was then abolished as a public cult, it was practiced privately by individuals
Anyone who had ever read Acts 7 with open eyes knows that God did NOT command the worship of the starry host at Jerusalem.
Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina,
........and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Acts 7:39 To whom our fathers would not obey,
........but thrust him from them,
........and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,
Acts 7:40 Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us:
........for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.
Acts 7:41 And they made a calf in those days,
........and offered sacrifice unto the idol,
........and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.
"The triumphal hymn of Moses had unquestionably a religious character about it; but the employment of music in religious services, though idolatrous, is more distinctly marked in the festivities which attended the erection of the golden calf." (Smith's Bible Dictionary, Music, p. 589).
This "rising up to play" involved eating, drinking, nakedness and musical worship. The goddess, Hathor, is the best candidate for the Mother Goddess of the Mount Sinai idolatry. Here priestessess or prophetesses were highly trained with musical instruments, cultic songs and be able to join in the religious dance.
Acts 7:42 Then God turned,
........and gave them up to worship the host of heaven;
........as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel,
........have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?
Why would God's abandoning Israel to worship the starry host be thought to be a COMMAND for musical worship services which you will never find in the Old Testament.
Why would anyone but an agent of Apollo (Sun God) and his Muses (Locusts) as dirty prostitutes serving as rhetoricians, singers and instrument players as a MARK, try to SCAM people and blame those who resist them as TROUBLERS IN ZION? That is because John calls them sorcerers who HAD ALREADY deceived the whole world and are spending all of their time, money fleeced from believers and terrorism to try to UNLEASH the end time MOTHER OF HARLOTS worship.
Acts 7:43 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch,
........and the star of your god Remphan,
........ figures which ye made to worship them:
........and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.
Acts 7:44 Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness,
........as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses,
........that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen.
Acts 7:45 Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles,
........whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David;
When David was too fearful to return to Gibeon and God's presence: rather than killing David God gave him an ancient Jebusite High place in Jerusalem called THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS. Solomon went to Gibeon to seek God and NOT to David's tabernacle in Jerusalem called Sodom, Hagar, Bondage, mother of harlots.
Acts 7:46 Who found favour before God,
........and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob.
........Acts 7:47 But Solomon built him an house.
Acts 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
........Acts 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool:
........what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
Acts 7:50 Hath not my hand made all these things?
By building God a HOUSE rather than the fallen tabernacle of David or a family, the are accused of
........Being Stiffnecked in uncircumcised
........And they RESISTED the Holy Spirit (of Christ)
The Spirit of Christ spoke through the PROPHETS and the LYING SCRIBES wrote the king's view of things.
Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears,
........ye do always resist the Holy Ghost:
........as your fathers did, so do ye.
Acts 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted?
........and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One;
........of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
There are numerous Old and New Testament passages which show that the Spirit of Christ speaks ONLY through the writing prophets: the Scribes spoke for the monarchy permitted as a CURSE and they are the Lying Pens of The Scribes: Jesus calls them hypocrites pointing to rhetoricians singers and instrument players.
Hos. 12:10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets
As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: Luke 1: 70
The Law of Moses from which they were commanded not to veer to the right or left was GOD'S commands: he did not command that a HOUSE be built for Him, He did not command a KING like all pagan nations and he did NOT commands the warriors instruments to be used in the HOUSE He did not command--whatever the lying pen of the scribes of the MOTHER OF HARLOTS recorded for our WARNING and not PATTERNISM.
Acts 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels,
........and have not kept it.
Acts 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart,
........and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
That's why as children of prophet killers people gnash their teeth when anyone stands up to their terrorism.
Remember that the SOP is the same root as PSALLO: when Jesus hand fed Judas the SOP the Devil came into him andall pagans believed that playing instruments gave them powers to INDUCE DEMONS. The Judas Bag was always attached to the flute case of a drunk and perverted flute player. The Alarm or Triumph OUTLAWED for the church in the wilderness INTENDS to frighten God's people into bowing to Baal.
The Apostle Paul and the Psalms that Ken wants to ignore
February 24 2009, 11:05 AM
Paul in Romans 15:7-9 (NASB)- "Therefore, accept one another, just as Christ also accepted us to the glory of God. For I say that Christ has become a servant to the circumcision on behalf of the truth of God to confirm the promises given to the fathers, and for the Gentiles to glorify God for His mercy; as it is written, "THEREFORE I WILL GIVE PRAISE TO YOU AMONG THE GENTILES, AND I WILL SING TO YOUR NAME.""
Paul is quoting from one of three Psalms: Psalms 18, 57, and 108.
Psalm 18 (NASB) - "Therefore I will give thanks to You among the nations, O LORD, And I will sing praises to Your name." This Psalm begins with, "For the choir director. A Psalm of David the servant of the LORD, who spoke to the LORD the words of this song in the day that the LORD delivered him from the hand of all his enemies and from the hand of Saul. And he said,"
Chronciles describes how the choir director was invloved: "Then David spoke to the chiefs of the Levites to appoint their relatives the singers, with instruments of music, harps, lyres, loud-sounding cymbals, to raise sounds of joy. So the Levites appointed Heman the son of Joel, and from his relatives, Asaph the son of Berechiah; and from the sons of Merari their relatives, Ethan the son of Kushaiah, and with them their relatives of the second rank, Zechariah, Ben, Jaaziel, Shemiramoth, Jehiel, Unni, Eliab, Benaiah, Maaseiah, Mattithiah, Eliphelehu, Mikneiah, Obed-edom and Jeiel, the gatekeepers. So the singers, Heman, Asaph and Ethan were appointed to sound aloud cymbals of bronze; and Zechariah, Aziel, Shemiramoth, Jehiel, Unni, Eliab, Maaseiah and Benaiah, with harps tuned to alamoth; and Mattithiah, Eliphelehu, Mikneiah, Obed-edom, Jeiel and Azaziah, to lead with lyres tuned to the sheminith. Chenaniah, chief of the Levites, was in charge of the singing; he gave instruction in singing because he was skillful. Berechiah and Elkanah were gatekeepers for the ark. Shebaniah, Joshaphat, Nethanel, Amasai, Zechariah, Benaiah and Eliezer, the priests, blew the trumpets before the ark of God. Obed-edom and Jehiah also were gatekeepers for the ark. So it was David, with the elders of Israel and the captains over thousands, who went to bring up the ark of the covenant of the LORD from the house of Obed-edom with joy. Because God was helping the Levites who were carrying the ark of the covenant of the LORD, they sacrificed seven bulls and seven rams. Now David was clothed with a robe of fine linen with all the Levites who were carrying the ark, and the singers and Chenaniah the leader of the singing with the singers. David also wore an ephod of linen. Thus all Israel brought up the ark of the covenant of the LORD with shouting, and with sound of the horn, with trumpets, with loud-sounding cymbals, with harps and lyres." (1 Chronicles 15:16-28, NASB).
So one of the possible Psalms divinely inspired to be quoted by the Apostle Paul was specifically written for directors whose job included the use of instruments of music.
Paul may have quoting from another Psalm, one that Ken disparges, Psalm 57 - "I will give thanks to You, O Lord, among the peoples; I will sing praises to You among the nations."
A quote that is preceded with the divinely inspired phrase, "My heart is steadfast, O God, my heart is steadfast; I will sing, yes, I will sing praises! Awake, my glory! Awake, harp and lyre! I will awaken the dawn."
A Psalm that begins with, "For the choir director..."
Paul may have also been quoting from Psalm 108, which mirrors Psalm 57: "My heart is steadfast, O God; I will sing, I will sing praises, even with my soul. Awake, harp and lyre; I will awaken the dawn! I will give thanks to You, O LORD, among the peoples, And I will sing praises to You among the nations."
A Psalm that begins with, "A Song, a Psalm of David"
Ken wishes to dismiss any Psalm that does not agree with his doctrine. The Apostle Paul did not dismiss the Psalms. He was inspired to quote them, not to dismiss them or excplain then away.
I am sure that Ken has some long-winded, irrelevant, pre-packaged reply he will cut and paste here. We have to decide, however, if we will follow Ken or if we will follow God. We can NOT follow both.
Speakers and Musicians ARE the HYPOCRITES saith Jesus.
February 24 2009, 1:59 PM
"But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together. Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, "Master, which is the great commandment in the law?" Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."
Scribes and Pharisees Jesus called hypocrites by pointing to performance preachers, singers and instrument players who would do PRIVATE INTERPRETATION outlawed by Peter and say: "If we just love the Lorde-uh and the brethren an sisteren then you can just forget everything else. For instance, you can lie, cheat and steal the church house of the widow sisteren because you love the WORLD and all of its adorning glory. However, there are other proof texts:
......Matt. 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets
Would you love to have someone "inflltrate and divert" your church to turn it from a commanded "scholl of the Bible" into a "Theater for holy entertainment?" Probably not. Would you love for a conspireing group to infuiltrate an instrumental church and burn the organ in the parking lot? Probably not.
Would you like for others to lie about all of the "anti-music" passages and tell you that the SPIRIT told you to pay them as pharisees and scribes and ALSO hire a band of HYPOCRITES which Jesus lumped together as the Spirit of Christ in the PROPHETS.
Ezek. 33:30 Also, thou son of man,
......the children of thy people still
......are talking against thee by the walls and in the doors of the h
......and speak one to another, every one to his brother,
......saying, Come, I pray you, and hear what is the word that cometh forth from the LORD.
Ezek. 33:31 And they come unto thee AS the people come AS my people, and they hear thy words,
..........but they will not do them:
......for with their mouth they shew much love,
..........but their heart goeth after their covetousness.
JESUS SAYS: speaking, singing, playing instruments is NOTHING: just NOTHING AT ALL: Hypocricy.
Ezek. 33:32 And, lo, thou art unto them AS a very lovely song of one that hath a pleasant voice,
......and can play well on an instrument:
..........for they hear thy words, but they do them not.
Ezek. 33:33 And when this cometh to pass, (lo, it will come,)
......then shall they know that a prophet hath been among them.
HANGS is a Greek word Jesus probably used as a PARABLE to fool the fools:
krem-annumi As a votive offering. I. MAKE DEPENDENT, a. ex allęlôn tęn dunamin Pl.Ion536a
THE WAY WE NON-HYPOCRITE CLASS DEFINE WORDS IS TO LOOK WHERE JESUS POINTED TO PROVE THAT THE LAW AND PROPHETS DO NOT HANG ON SPEAKERS, SINGERS AND INSTRUMENT PLAYERS.
Plato, Ion speaks to the Scribes and Pharisees, Hypocrites:
(536a] You, the rhapsode and actor [Singers and Hypocrites], are the middle ring; the poet himself is the first; but it is the god who through the whole series draws the souls of men whithersoever he pleases, making the power of one depend on the other. And, just as from the magnet, there is a mighty chain of choric performers and masters and under-masters suspended by side-connections from the rings . One poet is suspended from one Muse, another from another:
The hypocrite class of singers and players CLAIM that they can lead you into the presence of God: in that they claim to BE GOD standing in the holy place because they CLAIM that they can replace Jesus Christ as the one and only MEDIATOR.
The Muses are the Locusts in John's writing: in the literature they are dirty prostitutes.
Rhapsoidos a reciter of poems, professional reciters, chanters, hymnists and singers: called Kuons shameless, men who yap like dogs, Pan is the kuôn of Cybele, of the Cynics meaning homosexual musicians: that is the universal history.
Hupokrites interpreter or expounder, one who plays a part on a stage, actor, 2. of an orator, one who recites, declaimer, pretender, dissembler, hypocrite, hydraula one who plays on the waterorgan. Psilokitharistes one who pays the cithara
[72b] upon these inspired divinations [fullof the god, and mad]; and they, indeed, themselves are named diviners by certain who are wholly ignorant of the truth that they are not diviners but interpreters of the mysterious voice and apparition, for whom the most fitting name would be prophets of things divined.
Matt. 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
[536b] the word we use for it is possessed, but it is much the same thing, for he is held. And from these first rings--the poets--are suspended various others, which are thus inspired, some by Orpheus and others by Musaeus; but the majority are possessed and held by Homer. Of whom you, Ion, are one, and are possessed by Homer; and so, when anyone recites the work of another poet, you go to sleep and are at a loss what to say; but when some one utters a strain of your poet, you wake up at once, and your soul dances,
If you think that the Spirit of Christ did not condemn the serpent or MUSICAL ENCHANTER in the garden of Eden up to Revelation 17-18 where the MOTHER OF HARLOTS uses lusted after FRUITS (Kuons of Cybele the mother whore) as speakers, singers and instrument players (Rev 18) whom John called SORCERERS then you have spent too much time listening to hypocritic sermons and singing hypocritic songs. This violates direct commands to use "that which is written" with one mind and one mouth or "teach that which has been taught."
Satan intends to take you captive so that I believe you when YOU believe what you say.
The fact is that the SCRIBES and PHARISEES were the rhetorical and musical HYPOCRITES: they did not teach the Word as written.
Jesus used very wise but common NON-CLERGY because they would not CORRUPT the Word which means "sell learning at retail."
So, Scribes and Pharisees as professional hypocrites HATE YOU otherwise they could not USE you by lying. In fact they ALL use pagan exorcism noises and convince YOU that God is commanding YOU to do instrumental music: THEY are the ones who use what David ADDED to the Law to put you into captivity--and you love to have it so
The honest EVANGELIST goes and teaches that which has been taught: in no case did you find one pontificating or using music any time or place: that was outlawed for the synagogue or church in the wilderness.
And NO church used singing as an ACT until the pagan Scribes as hypocrites wrote their OWN SCRIPTURE in the year 373.
Sorry, but you have your CLASSES confused. A MUSICAL INSTRUMENT is defined as a MACHINE for doing hard work primarily in making WAR.
We will have NO BEEF if the viper class does not lie about all of the Bible and spend huge money and effort to try to FORCE all churches of Christ to become INSTRUMENTAL. That filters up to the ends of the earth in my little village and makes the Church of Christ a hiss and a byword: no one will accept those who deliberately lie about God and too God. So far, I think we have headed them off and quarantined their filth primarily to those churches who CONSPIRED originally. That only worked by stealing the property from the owners and SOWING DISCORD and driving up to one half of them out sometimes without their families. QUOTE: "you may have to choose between your family and instrumental music."
Re: Speakers and Musicians ARE the HYPOCRITES saith Jesus.
February 24 2009, 6:22 PM
David used his music to defeat the GENTILES, shed their blood and put his boot on their head: David is the EVIL THREAD.
Jesus died and shed HIS blod FOR the Gentiles and then sends out evangelists to speak the WORDS of God to make them one with the Jews.
Can you see a difference? JESUS sings to the Gentiles when WE teach the SONGS AND SERMONS already written and directly commanded as "that which is written."
He will CONFESS to the Gentiles
......and sing UNTO thy name
Rom. 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles,
......ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable,
......being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
Rom. 15:1 We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves
Jesus outlawed the laded burden: that means exciting songs and "creating spiritual anxiety through religious rituals." The word REST is the Greek PAUO which is devoted to "Stop the speaking, stop the singing, stop the instruments." These were always used and only used to do mind control by creating anxity.
First, he outlawed PLEASING ourself which points directly to the "spiritual anxiety of religious rituals" Jesus died to outlaw.
G700 ar-es'-ko Probably from G142 (through the idea of exciting emotion) to be agreeable (or by implication to seek to be so)lease.
Exairô -lift up, lift off the earth 2. raise in dignity, exalt, magnify, exaggerate it. Rhetoric, treat in elevated style, of music
3. arouse, stir up excites thy wish to die, pervert, make away with, get rid of, to be excited, agitated
Includes: Choreia [choreuô] a dance, esp. the choral or round dance with its music
G142 airo ah'ee-ro A primary verb; to lift; by implication to take up or away; figuratively to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind); specifically to sail away (that is, weigh anchor); by Hebraism (compare [ H5375 ]) to expiate sin :away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).
Anaireô, anęiręka (aneir-dub. in Com.Adesp.18.6D.): (v. haireô): --take up, anelontes apo chthonos having raised the victim from the ground, so as to cut its throat (cf. aueruô), take up and carry off, bear away, esp. prizes. of oracle's answer to inquiry
II. make away with, destroy, of men, kill, Hdt.4.66; pollous anairôn A.Ch.990 ; se men hęmetera psphos a. E.Andr.517; thanatois a. Pl.Lg. 870d ; ek politeias toiauta thęria a. Din.3.19 , etc.
This word points directly to SINGING and is the root meaning of HERESY
IN THE LATIN WHICH IS MORE RELIABLE, SELF PLEASURE
Romans XV. 1 debemus autem nos firmiores imbecillitates infirmorum sustinere et non nobis placere
Sustinere I. to hold up, hold upright, uphold, to bear up, keep up, support, sustain 1.To sustain, support, maintain, by food, money, or other means (maintain,preserve with dignity of a citizen II. Concr., the citizens united in a community, the body - politic, the state, and as this consists of one city and its territory, or of several cities, it differs from urbs, i.e. the compass of the dwellings of the collected citizens;
However, the CHANGELINGS plan to UPSET YOUR COMFORT ZONE to force you to be hurt.
Outlawed: Placeo to please, to be pleasing or agreeable, to be welcome, acceptable, to satisfy (class.). 1. In scenic lang., of players or pieces presented, to please, find favor, give satisfaction: scenico placenti
Rom. 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom. 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit,
......if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
......Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Outlawed:: Scaenicus I. of or belonging to the stage, scenic, dramatic, ORGANA, theatrical
I. Lit.: poëtae, dramatic poets, ludi, stage-plays, theatrical representations, : fabula, a drama,
2. Placere sibi, to be pleased or satisfied with one's self, to flatter one's self, to pride or plume one's self
Poi-ętęs II. composer of a poem, author, p. kômôidias Pl.Lg.935e ; p. kainôn dramatôn, b. composer of music, 2. author of a speech
Outlawed::Organum Vitr. 10, 1.--Of musical instruments, a pipe,. Gen. 4, 21; id. 2 Par. 34, 12 et saep.--Of hydraulic engines, an organ, water-organ: organa hydraulica,
Gen 4:21 And his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.
......H8610 manipulate, figuratively to use unwarrantably:--catch, handle, (lay, take) hold (on, over), stop, X surely, surprise, take.
......H8608 taphaph to drum, that is, play (as) on the tambourine:taber, play with timbrels.H8611 tôpheth ......to'-feth From the base of H8608 ; a smiting, that is, (figuratively) contempt:--tabret. MEANING HELL
Outlawed:: Modulatio. In partic., a rhythmical measure, modulation; hence, singing and playing, melody, in poetry and music, Quint. 9, 4, 139: modulatione produci aut corripi (verba), id. 9, 4, 89 : modulatio pedum, id. 1, 6, 2 : scenica, id. 11, 3, 57 : vocis, melody, id. 11, 3, 59 : musica, Aus. Ep. 25, 13 .
Clement of Alexandria: "After having paid reverence to the discourse about God, they leave within [at church] what they have heard. And outside they foolishly amuse themselves with impious playing, and amatory quavering (feminine vibrato), occupied with flute-playing, and dancing, and intoxication, and all kinds of trash.
Rom 15[2] unusquisque vestrum proximo suo placeat in bonum ad aedificationem [3] etenim Christus non sibi placuit sed sicut scriptum est inproperia inproperantium tibi ceciderunt super me
SPEAK by definition is the opposite of POETRY or MUSIC.
LOQUOR I. inf. loquier, p-, to talk, whisper; Gr. lak-, elakon, laskô], to speak, talk, say (in the lang. of common life, in the tone of conversation; cf. Quint. 9, 4, 10; 11, 3, 45).
1. To speak out, to say, tell, talk about, mention, utter, name: A. To speak, declare, show, indicate or express clearly:
Aedificatio III. Fig., building up, instructing, edification.
(a). Absol.: loquitur ad aedificationem, Vulg. 1 Cor. 14, 3 ; 14, 26.--
(b). With gen.: ad aedificationem Ecclesiae [church], Vulg. 1 Cor. 14, 12 ; ib. Eph. 4, 12.
Eph. 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists;
and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph. 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph. 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
WHATEVER YOU TRY TO DREDGE UP YOU ARE TRYING TO USE THE WORSHIP OF THE STARRY HOST INCLUDING THE SUN OR APOLLO OR APOLLYON WHO HAS UNLEASHED THE LOCUSTS OR "MUSES" JOHN CALLS SORCERERS.
HAVE YOU NEVER READ THE PROPHETS TO GRASP THE MIND (SPIRIT) OF CHRIST WHO REPUDIATES ALL OF THESE PEOPLE AS UNDER A CURSE AND THEREFORE ROBBERS AND PARASITES?
Kings and MAD musicians TO TAKE YOU INTO CAPTIVITY.
February 24 2009, 10:57 PM
1 Chron 25:1 MOREOVER David and the Commanders of the Army separated to the service of the sons of Asaph, and of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who should prophesy with harps, with psalteries, and with cymbals: and the number of the workmen according to their service was:
NOW WOULDN'T A BIBLE READY BEGIN TO WORRY WHEN THEIR CAPTOR WANTS TO BE "A KING SET OVER US" SO HE CAN STEAL ALL OF YOUR PROPERTY AND LEAD YOU TO DEATH.
And what is the MARK of that BEAST (new style singing by definition) is that he is going to ENSLAVE you by having WARRIOR PROPHESIERS:
5012. naba, naw-baw´; a primitive root; to prophesy, i.e. speak (or sing) by inspiration (in prediction or simple discourse):prophesy(-ing), make self a prophet.
"This is the first mention in the OT of a band of prophets. These were men who went about in companies and were able by means of music and dancing to work themselves up into a convulsive and ecstatic frenzy (2 Ki. 3:1-10).
Their abnormality was believed to be caused by the invasive influence of the spirit of god.
The word prophesied here does not mean either foretelling the future or preaching after the manner of the later prophets, but engaging in the ritual dance of the prophetic guild (19:18-24). Their behavior was commonly regarded as a form of madness (2 Ki. 9:11; Jer. 29:26)" (The Int. Bible Ency., I Sam. p. 932).
"The Hithpa'el of nb', in the ancient texts, refers to ecstasy and delirium rather than to the emission of a 'prophecy'." (de Vaux, Roland, The Bible and the Ancient Near East, p. 243 Doubleday
"Maniac inspirations, the violent possession which threw sibyls and priestesses into contortions--the foaming lip and streaming hair and glazed or glaring eyes-- have no place in the self-controlling dignity of Christian inspiration. It abhors the hysteria and stimulation and frenzy which have sometimes disgraced revivalism and filled lunatic asylums." (Pulpit Commentary, 1 Cor., p. 460).
BUT, WHY NOT LOOK AT THE REASON GOD GAVE THEM WARRIOR KINGS AND MAD MUSICIANS.
The MILITARY-CLERGY-WARRIOR CLASS was the NATIONAL government and not a religious institute. That nation had been abandoned to worship the starry host and KINGS were given to lead the nation into captivity and death.
If you cannot grasp that CURSE including animal sacrifices, priests, kings, kingdom, temple was just like all pagan nations, then you understand (or not) why from Genesis to Revelation music is SOURCED from Lucifer to keep you Biblically illiterate and never able to move beyond picking verses from the Lexicon.
OR IT IS CLEARLY PROPHETIC THAT THE MUSICAL DISCORDERS KNOW THEIR MISSION AS DEFINED IN REVELATION 17-18 AS SORCERERS WHO HAD DECEIVED THE WHOLE WORLD.
THE PATTERNISM OF DAVID A KING CHOSEN TO LEAD THE PEOPLE INTO CAPTIVITY AND DEATH.
And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways:
......now make us a king to judge us like all the nations. 1 Samuel 8:5
......But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said,
......Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the Lord. 1 Samuel 8:6
And the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee:
......for they have not rejected thee,
......but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them. 1 Samuel 8:7
Can anyone trust anyone who cannot grasp that to appeal to David is to REJECT GOD?
According to all the works which they have done
......since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day,
......wherewith they have forsaken me,
......and served other gods,
......so do they also unto thee.
1 Samuel 8:8 Now therefore hearken unto their voice:
......howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them,
......and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them. 1 Samuel 8:9
And Samuel told all the words of the Lord unto the people that asked of him a king. 1 Samuel 8:10
And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you:
......He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself,
......for his chariots, and to be his horsemen;
......and some shall run before his chariots. 1 Samuel 8:11
And he will appoint him captains over thousands,
......and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground,
......and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war,
......and instruments of his chariots. 1 Samuel 8:12
Instruments of CHARIOTS are MUSICAL INSTRUMENT. The young men stolen from their farms would RUN BEFORE THE CHARIOTS make a loud NOISE never called music and be the FIRST ONES KILLED. This is identical to most pagan armies and we have pictures.
And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers. 1 Samuel 8:13
And he
......will take your fields,
......and your vineyards,
......and your oliveyards, even the best of them,
......and give them to his servants. 1 Samuel 8:14
THE NEW KINGS WHO HAVE USED WARRIOR MUSICIANS TO TAKE YOU CAPTIVE CALL THEM MINISTRY TEAMS.
And he will take the tenth of your seed,
......and of your vineyards,
......and give to his officers,
......and to his servants. 1 Samuel 8:15
And he will take
......your menservants,
......and your maidservants,
......and your goodliest young men,
......and your asses, and put them to his work. 1 Samuel 8:16
He will take the tenth of your sheep:
......and ye shall be his servants. 1 Samuel 8:17
Human kings take, take, take, take, take and GIVE to his friends. And YOU are not going to like it.
And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you;
......and the Lord will not hear you in that day. 1 Samuel 8:18
This proves that the king was more than a military commander who could use his charism to call up an army. The full implications go further: He will make you into a SLAVE NATION just like all other NATIONS where the god's agents lived in the temple.
Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us; 1 Samuel 8:19
BY KEEPING THE "AUDIENCE" IGNORANT OF THE BIBLE THIS IS THE PATTERNISM THEY IMPOSE ON YOU TO MAKE YOU "SLAVES OF THE WATCHTOWERS."
:The opinion of the Spirit of Christ through the prophets
And testifiedst against them, that thou mightest bring them again unto thy law:
......yet they dealt proudly,
......and hearkened not unto thy commandments,
......but sinned against thy judgments,
......(which if a man do, he shall live in them;) and withdrew the shoulder,
......and hardened their neck, and would not hear. Neh 9:29
Yet many years didst thou forbear them,
......and testifiedst against them by thy spirit in thy prophets:
......yet would they not give ear:
......therefore gavest thou them into the hand of the people of the lands. Neh 9:30
Neh 9:31 Nevertheless for thy great mercies sake
......thou didst not utterly consume them, nor forsake them;
......for thou art a gracious and merciful God.
Howbeit thou art just in all that is brought upon us;
......for thou hast done right, but we have done wickedly: Neh 9:33
Neither have our kings, our princes, our priests, nor our fathers, kept thy law,
......nor hearkened unto thy commandments and thy testimonies,
......wherewith thou didst testify against them. Neh 9:34
For they have not served thee in their kingdom, and in thy great goodness that thou gavest them,
......and in the large and fat land which thou gavest before them,
......neither turned they from their wicked works. Neh 9:35
Behold, we are servants this day,
......and for the land that thou gavest unto our fathers
......to eat the fruit thereof and the good thereof,
......behold, we are servants in it: Neh 9:36
And it yieldeth much increase
......unto the kings whom thou hast set over us
......because of our sins:
also they have dominion
......over our bodies,
......and over our cattle,
......at their pleasure,
......and we are in great distress. Neh 9:37
God gave them KINGS but promised that the kings would steal all of their property and make them slaves and lead them into captivity and death.
Nehemiah by the Spirit of Christ validates ONLY THE PROPHETS who warn confirms that this is what happened.
What motive would a minister-becomes-master have for wanting to follow the PATTERNISM of David and his musical madness creators EXCEPT to take total control of your lives with a MINISTER to consume all of your surplus time and money?
SO IF YOUR PREACHER IS SO HOSTILE AGAINST THE WATCHMEN ON THE WALLS BE AWARE THAT THEY KNOW THAT THEY HAVE BEEN CAUGHT WITH THEIR RANTS DOWN AND THEIR HAND IN THE WIDOW'S PURSE.
This is the original Stephen who posted here. I did not write the last post though it was in my name. I've been away from this site for awhile now. I'm going to be as honest and graceful as I can be.
This makes me sick. All of you HATE EACH OTHER!!! Why?!? We all agree that Jesus died on a cross and rose again for the forgiveness of our sins...that makes us BROTHERS!!! We should LOVE each other!!! I can't believe we are arguing about something as UNIMPORTANT as the use of musical instruments in worship. Don't any of you realize how meaningless this debate is?! I play guitar and praise Jesus...if I didn't I would still praise and love Jesus!!! We all believe in Jesus that is all that matters! Ken, you probably think I'm a hypocrite and apostate. I'm your brother. That we would think anything like that about a brother in Christ is wrong and evil! (God, forgive me if I have failed in this also.) I love all of you but I'm burning with anger at the error of your ways. You represent the name of Jesus poorly.
"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing." -1st Corinthians 13:1-3
Don't you see?!? Where is the LOVE?! Love is EVERYTHING! All of you are NOTHING! I fear for you, brothers, because you have lost your love. You pretend to know your Bible. You pretend to know its history, its language, and its meaning. Yet you miss its greatest message. Love the Lord your God and love your neighbor. You are so absorbed in your flawed scholarship that you miss everything that is truly important.
Musical instruments don't matter. Love matters. Jesus matters.
I hope and pray that someday God will move and this will grasp your hearts. I beg you to abandon this hatred and meaningless debate. I beg you to respect all forms of worshiping our God even if you don't fully agree with them. Praise God the way you feel led and don't judge those He has led to do differently.
Praise God from whom all blessings flow.
Praise Him all creatures here below.
Praise Him above, ye heavenly host.
Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Amen!
I agree completely with your post. It is easy to let passion get in the way of following Christ.
I hope you noticed that that discussion the last day or two was not about instrumental music, but was instead about whether we can trust that a Psalm is inspired of God or is not inspired of God. I believe all of the Psalms were God-breathed, as Paul assured Timothy.
Ray,
Thank you for your gracious response. You're right that we really are often distracted from what it means to live like Jesus. I also completely agree that all Scripture is God breathed, amen! There is definitely value in loving Christian conversation, even if it is in disagreement. If you choose to pursue discussions with Ken, even if they are fruitless, I pray that you do so in a loving and gracious way. Ultimately I just feel sorry for Ken. It depresses me when I see people who claim to love God but fail so miserably in loving people. I'm glad that there are Christians who genuinely love God AND people. Love is not all about just telling the cold hard truth as you perceive it. Love is much more and much deeper than that. The life of Jesus as told in the Bible testifies to this truth.
We figured that RAY was not shining too well: HE forgot that HE brought up the inspired Psalm issue: I told him the truth: it is NOT inspired as a PATTERNISM for the synagogue at that time OR the Church of Christ which is a school of the Bible--Only. You probably have never seen one of those.
Little Stevie brought up some proof texts without having ever read the context: I spent considerable time trying to inform him and wrote the BIBLICAL CONTEXT and what all literate disciples know. The usual PATTERNISM is that he falls into the hand wringing "love thingie" when love means TELLING THE TRUTH. Not to worry: all of those who will ever grasp the Bible as it is written will probably fit on an old Joy Bus. That is PROPHESIED. My job and joy is to research and post and I cover more people and more countries than all of the mega-mouth, mega-music churches put together.
1 Chron 25:1 MOREOVER David and the Commanders of the Army separated to the service of the sons of Asaph, and of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who should prophesy with harps, with psalteries, and with cymbals: and the number of the workmen according to their service was:
Anyone who has ever read the Bible knows that Israel fell from grace in two stages.
First, after they rose up to play in musical idolatry at Mount Sinai God turned them over to worship the starry host. They were conditionally sentenced to return to Babylon unless they repented.
When the elders fired God and demanded a king God knew that they wanted to worship like the nations: he granted their prayer after warning that the kings and clergy would enslave them. All of the prophets call them robbers and parasites and blame the Levites for their fall from grace.
Because the "noise makers" were under the KING and COMMANDERS of the army it is hard to see how a preacher could use that as proof text to literally "make war" on the flock he is sworn to defend. No scholar can fail to grasp that Psalms were primarily warriors panic songs for making war and never composed for "congregational singing with instrumental accompaniment."
Payne insists that the Hebrew of 1 Chronicles 25:1 unambiguously identifies these leaders as military commanders, an interpretation favoured by several Bible translations. (Payne, p 423-4; NASB, NIV, NKJV, NRSV, Jerusalem Bible) If military commanders had a particular interest in the appointment of musicians, it suggests a strong link between music and warfare
WHAT ARE WARRIORS DOING AS INSANE PROPHESIERS?
"The Hithpa'el of nb', in the ancient texts, refers to ecstasy and delirium rather than to the emission of a 'prophecy'." (de Vaux, Roland, The Bible and the Ancient Near East, p. 243 Doubleday
For the simple people we will post David's PRAISE WORD again which gives rise for the MEANING of LUCIFER.
THIS HAS THE SAME MEANING AS THEIR PROPHESYING WITH INSTRUMENTS.
"Maniac inspirations, the violent possession which threw sibyls and priestesses into contortions--the foaming lip and streaming hair and glazed or glaring eyes-- have no place in the self-controlling dignity of Christian inspiration. Even Jewish prophets, in the paroxysm of emotion, might lie naked on the ground and rave (1 Sam. xix. 24); but the genuine inspiration in Christian ages never obliterates the self-consciousness or overpowers the reason. It abhors the hysteria and stimulation and frenzy which have sometimes disgraced revivalism and filled lunatic asylums." (Pulpit Commentary, 1 Cor., p. 460).
This is EXACTLY what happens when people begin to sing, clap, sway or even dance and do the GOOSE CLAP under a deliberatel MIND CONTROLLER whom YOU pay like a dope.
If you can grasp that the musical idolatry at Mount Sinai was Egyptian worship and God TURNED THEM BACK to that when they spat in His face at Mount Sinai. David as a national (Goyim) or Gentile king
The Latin reads: Prophe-ta I. a foreteller, SOOTHSAYER prophet... oraculorumque interpretes, sacerdotes Aegyptiorum, quos prophetas vocant, Aegyptius, propheta primarius
Prophęt-ęs A. one who speaks for a god and interprets his will to man, Dios p. interpreter, expounder of the will of Zeus, 2. title of official keepers of the oracle at Branchidae, b. in Egyptian temples, member of the highest order of the clergy, priest, 3. interpreter, expounder of the utterances of the mantis [Mad Women Corinth]
The Mad Woman at Corinth and those who spoke gibberish at Delphi (the Pythian spirit Paul cast our) responded to a question like a "sealed envelope" the evangelist uses. The prophet or priest interpreted the gibbering to fit the unsealed question. The Musician then put it into verse for the "worshiper."
Mantis diviner, seer, prophet Pythian priestess, 3. Adj., toude manteôs chorou [round dance] of this prophetic band, dub. in S.Fr.113. II. a kind of grasshopper, the praying mantis, Mantis religiosa, Theoc.10.18, Dsc.Eup.1.149.
THEIR SERVICE WAS.
Service is: H5656 abodah abodâh ab-o-daw', ab-o-daw' From H5647 ; work of any kind:act, bondage, + bondservant, effect, labour, ministering (-try), office, service (-ile, -itude), tillage, use, work, X wrought.
H5647 Abad aw-bad A primitive root; to work (in any sense); by implication to serve, till, (causatively) enslave, etc.: X be, keep in bondage, be bondmen, bond-service, compel
Worship is:
H10 Abaddoh ab-ad-do' The same as H9 , miswritten for H11 ; a perishing:destruction.
The Levitical Warrior Musicians were engaged in STAR WORSHIP says the Jewish Encycloped and Apollo or Apollyon is the SUN god and the Muses are his dirty musicians who are also adulterers.
Because the kings carried out the captivity and death sentence imposed BECAUSE of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai, this is a MOTIF or PATTERNISM which is being repeated right now with the Mother of Harlots
H6 abad aw-bad' A primitive root; properly to wander away, that is lose oneself; by implication to perish (causatively, destroy)
H11 abaddon ab-ad-done Intensively from H6 ; abstractly a perishing; concretely Hades:--destruction.
The pagan worshipers of Dionysus (the new wineskinners) were always devoted to HADES and infact hung around what they thought of the "gates of hell." They were called:
Bakche A .Bacchante,
Bakche Haidou frantic handmaid of Hades, E.Hec.1077; b. nekuôn Id.Ph.1489 (lyr.).
........Haides I. Hades or Pluto (cf. Plouton), the god of the nether world, son of Kronus and Rhea, brother to Zeus,
The Corybantes were priests of Cybele or Rhea [ZOE], mother of Zeus and other Olympian gods, and she was worshipped with wild music and frenzied dancing which, like the bacchic revels or orgies of women in honor of Dionysus, carried away the participants despite and beyond themselves. Cf. Eurip. Bacchae.
This is the Babylon MOTHER OF HARLOTS in Revelation 17 who USES "lusted after fruits" as speakers, singers and instrument players: John calls them SORCERERS.
THESE WERE THE MAD WOMEN OF CORINTH
Korinthios , a, on, Corinthian, Hdt., etc.; K. korę courtesan, Pl.R. 404d; hetairai K. Ar.Pl.149; oinos K. Alex.290; K. kadoi Corinthian fashion, oikos (house, Temple, church) K. estegasmenos J.AJ8.5.2 :-- fem. Korinthias , ados, hę, St.Byz.:--also Korinthiakos , ę, on, X.HG6.2.9; K. gluphai Ph.1.666 : Korinthikos , AP6.40 (Maced.). B. Kore.. the Daughter (of Demeter), name under which Persephone (Proserpine) was worshipped in Attica
Hetaira 1. a companion, Il.; phorminx, hęn daiti (feast) theoi (god) poięsan (make) hetairen Od.; penia sphin hetaira Theocr. 2. opposite to a lawful wife, a concubine, a courtesan, Hdt., attic
And what of the Corinthian whores? [150] If a poor man offers them proposals, they do not listen; but if it be a rich one, instantly they turn their arses to him.
Cario It's the same with the lads; they care not for love, to them money means everything.
And the "church mad women" would be marked by music (prophesying 1 Cor 11:5) and their harp belonged to Apollo, Abaddon or the Apollyon who is the having-fallen STAR invading your church.
Phorminx 1 the phorminx, a kind of lyre or harp, the oldest stringed instrument of the Greeks, esp. as the instrument of Apollo, Hom.; with seven strings (after Terpander's time), Pind. [Commonly referred to pherô, as if it were the portable lyre: better perh. from Root .phrem, Lat. fremo, to sound.]
This is the Apollo John used as the PATTERNISM for the Mother of Harlots where Abaddon or Apollyon unleashed the locusts with deadly scorpion stingers who were the MUSES known to any literte Greek. That is why the singers and musicians are call SORCERERS who TAKE PEOPLE CAPTIVE.
1 Chron 25:2 Of the sons of Asaph; Zaccur, and Joseph, and Nethaniah, and Asarelah, the sons of Asaph under the hands of Asaph, which prophesied according to the order of the king.
There are no IDLE WORDS in the Bible and that is why "Gitting up a sermon" out of scraps of the Bible is a SIGN or MARK. If we look at ASAPH for instance: why would you want an ASAP AS "WORSHIP LEADER."
H623 Asaph aw-sawf From H622 ; collector; Asaph, the name of three Israelites, and of the family of the first:--Asaph.
H622 Asaph aw-saf A primitive root; to gather for any purpose; hence to receive, take away, that is, remove (destroy, leave behind, put up, restore, etc.):--assemble, bring, consume, destroy, fetch, gather (in, together, up again), X generally, get (him), lose, put all together, receive, recover [another from leprosy], (be) rereward, X surely, take (away, into, up), X utterly, withdraw.
Music has always been used to VALIDATE the authority of the "king set over us" in the changeling churches who lie about God and to God. ASAPH points you to ABAD or ABBADOWN which was the SERVICE performed by ancient and modern false people very easily TAKING YOU CAPTIVE if you listen to their WITCHCRAFT or as John says, SORCERY.
Maybe we should remember that David was the KING and the TEMPLE was the Capital of a Goyim or gentile nation. The animal sacrifices were NATIONAL and when the slaughter of INNOCENT LAMBS (as types of God) began, the loud NOISE was a signal that all CIVILIANS be outside of the WALLS--far removed from the later temple court.
Their RELIGION was Sabazianism and many of the names point directly to DIONYSUS worship which the Israelites brought from Egypt and NEVER CEASED to observe on a national basis.
Kings do not prescribe SPIRITUAL worship which took place OUTSIDE the gates where they held synagogue--even in the wilderness--to REST, read and rehearse the Word. Loud trumpets could CALL ASSEMBLY but not the ALARM which included "making a joyful noise before the Lord" which was every nations' PANIC music.
"A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another."
-John 13:34-35
The words of Jesus. A proof text with all the context.
The following is a response to a different [?] Stephen in another thread (cf. More Churches: Bammel Church of Christ). It is being re-posted here in response to those who believe that Rev. 18, Psalm 57 and Psalm 150, etc., support the notion as to what should occur when a group of New Testament Christians assembles.
Who really uses musical instruments? March 4 2009, 12:35 AM
Stephen,
It is interesting to note that you mentioned Obama, Democrat, Republican, a Bible version and Ebay, etc., because I didn't. But that's good. I think you know the comparisons and contrasts.
Overall, I really like Ken Sublett's appropriate description of these people as not being "liberals: they are ignorant liars taking captive and stealing...." -- the same people who have come up with the term "legalism" whenever the pure, unadulterated gospel of Christ is taught and preached.
I have been doing a search for the words, or something similar to, "musical instruments" and they're nowhere to be found in the New Testament. No examples of the musical machines participating in the assembly of the New Testament saints -- wonder why?
Wait ... I've heard about Psalm 150. Of course, we know that the Christian saints are to "teach and admonish one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs." Oh ... a psalm ... like a religious poem in singable format? So, I get to compare:
(1) Psalm 23: Song Title: "The Lord's My Shepherd" -- There are different tunes to this song, but I think we're all familiar with Psalm 23. So, we sing it as "a psalm."
(2) Psalm 150: Has someone written the music to this "favorite psalm" of the subversive change agents in the brotherhood? [Well, it's really not a psalm -- it's just a chapter in the book of Psalms.]
The chapter is simply a list of musical instruments. Here it is: Praise him...
-- with the sound of the trumpet
-- with the psaltery
-- with the harp
-- with the timbrel and
-- dance [may not be an instrument]
-- with stringed instruments
-- with organs
-- upon the loud cymbals
-- upon the high sounding cymbals
Right!!! They're the lyrics. Create music, anyone? Which of these instruments is your favorite? Like them all? Use them all?
Wait ... I've heard about II Chronicles 29. Sorry, due to lack of time, I'm going to [must] list other items besides musical instruments. We don't want to miss any item, do we?
-- seven bullocks
-- seven rams
-- seven lambs
-- seven he goats
-- for a sin offering
-- the priests the sons of Aaron to offer them on the altar
-- killed the bullocks
-- the priests received the blood
-- sprinkled it on the altar
-- killed the rams
-- sprinkled the blood upon the altar
-- killed also the lambs
-- sprinkled the blood upon the altar
-- the he goats for the sin offering: the priests killed them
-- burnt offering
-- set the Levites with cymbals
-- psalteries
-- harps, according to the commandment of David
-- the Levites stood with the instruments of David
-- the priests with the trumpets
-- trumpets
-- the instruments ordained by David king of Israel
-- the singers sang
-- the trumpeters sounded
-- all this continued until the burnt offering was finished.
[32] And the number of the burnt offerings, which the congregation brought, was threescore and ten bullocks, an hundred rams, and two hundred lambs: all these were for a burnt offering to the LORD.
[33] And the consecrated things were six hundred oxen and three thousand sheep.
[34] But the priests were too few, so that they could not flay all the burnt offerings: wherefore their brethren the Levites did help them, till the work was ended, and until the other priests had sanctified themselves: for the Levites were more upright in heart to sanctify themselves than the priests.
[35] And also the burnt offerings were in abundance,with the fat of the peace offerings, and the drink offerings for every burnt offering. So the service of the house of the LORD was set in order.
[36] And Hezekiah rejoiced, and all the people, that God had prepared the people: for the thing was done suddenly.
Would anyone like to participate in that kind of an assembly?
At the FIRST ADVENT almost none of the CLERGY and RELIGIOUS PROFITEERS had a remote clue about Jesus: that is because they had proven that they were a VIPER GENERATION working as hard as they could to convert people to SATAN. As a result Jesus spoke to them in PARABLES specificially to keep the INSTITUTES running full force until the Baptized believers were REMOVED and the CHAFF blown away by a WIND (SPIRIT) to be separated to be BURNED UP.
There is no reason to believe that the INSTITUTES will not be involved in LYING WONDERS (the theatrical arts and crafts) and the people will just be happy-clappy not knowing that the LOCUSTS (Muses) had been turned loose to PUNISH where even nitwitties at that time understood that MUSIC is "setting lies to melodies to deceive the simple" and damage the soul of those who are not FIT for a SPIRIT DIMENSION.
When neither liberal nor conservative but the VIPERS John and Jesus warned about and the CROOKED RACE from which we are to save ourselves and NOT enable, appeal to the Old Testament (a shadow meaning a ghost or a covenant with death) the are ANTI-Christian prostitutes John called SORCERERS who had deceived the whole world.
It should not be surprising that neither Stephen nor the massed multitudes taken captive by that which prophecy and Paul warn against CANNOT grasp the horrors which they defend because music DOES by definition MARK the mind and one definition of the BEAST is females/effeminates "singing a NEW STYLE OF SONG." Like a Hitler this is to do a permant MIND WARP from which one cannot recover because they are not capable of understanding dlear text.
Acts 7:43 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, f\
......figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.
Acts 7:43 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch,
......and the star of your god Remphan,
......figures which ye made to worship them:
......and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.
Acts 7:44 Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness,
......as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses,
......that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen.
Acts 7:45 Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles,
......whom God drave out before the face of our fathers,
......unto the days of David;
Acts 7:46 Who found favour before God,
and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob.
Acts 7:47 But Solomon built him an house.
Acts 7:48 Howbeit the most High
......dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
Now, you SHOULD expect that a preacher could grasp that and they PROBABLY DO even as Judas had a hidden understanding that he was Satan's agent--the son of perdition.
......Because they preach that Stephen MUST have been a liar, and the captives APPLAUD, you have to grasp that God has sent them a strong delusion using a STRONG DELUDER to force them to believe a lie and be damned BECAUSE they were not OF TRUTH.
I HAVE SEPARATED THE CONCEPT OF SILENCE FROM 1 CORINTHIANS 14 HERE.
Peter made it certain that those who DO NOT TEACH THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN is a MARK of a false teacher. Paul often proved that the pagan rituals involving music would be a MARK and one definition is "Zoe as the beast and female instructing principle" and another MARK is a "new style praise song." Plato warned that this was the MARK of those intending to change the laws.
BY GETTING INTO THE "WHO RULES THE ROOST" BOTH SIDES USE A SATANIC PLOY TO FOOLS THE FOOLS.
When Paul demanded that the women be SILENT the purpose was "submission" which speaks of a STUDENT being SILENT while the TUTOR does the teaching. Because from the church in the wlderness to the church defined and practiced in the Bible and for several centuries is as synagogue or SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE there simple are no roles for rhetoric, ritual prayer, singing, playing instruments or any performing role.
Even in decent civil society the plague was self-seeking women believing in a matriarchal goddess (a holy whore), women and effeminate males (Paul calls them dogs or wolves) would be the only person believing that their body rituals called forth the gifts of the goddess even as their sexual powers brought children. One of the things always needing silencing when teaching was involved was to:
Silence--Phorminx--Pthengoma--Hieron
[A] SilenceMelos B. esp. musical member, phrase: hence, song, strain, meter, 2. music to which a song is set, tune, 3. melody of an instrument, phorminx d'au phthengoith' hieron
[B] Silence Phorminx Pthengoma Hieron
Phorminx a lyre especially the instrument of Apollo, Apollon
Homer Iliad 1.Then he poured wine for all the other gods from left to right, drawing forth sweet nectar from the bowl. And unquenchable laughter arose among the blessed gods, as they saw Hephaestus puffing through the palace. [600] Thus the whole day long till the setting of the sun they feasted, nor did their heart lack anything of the equal feast, nor of the beauteous lyre, that Apollo held, nor yet of the Muses, who sang, replying one to the other with sweet voices. But when the bright light of the sun was set, [605] they went each to his own house to take their rest, where for each one a palace had been built with cunning skill by the famedHephaestus, the limping god; and Zeus the Olympian, lord of the lightning, went to his couch, where of old he took his rest, whenever sweet sleep came upon him. [610] There went he up and slept, and beside him lay Hera of the golden throne.
The HOLY PROSTITUTES plagued Israel from beginning to the end because God had abandoned them to that practice .
[C] Silence Phthengomai, Od.10.228, of inanimate things, of a door, creak of thunder; of trumpets, of the flute, of the lyre, [of a melody claimed to be from god using Apollo's lyre] of an earthen pot, whether it rings sound or cracked, Pl.Tht.179d; ph. to clap with the hands, III. c. acc. pers., sing, or celebrate one aloud , Pi.O.1.36;
[D] Silence the temple prostitutes: Hieros I. illed with or manifesting divine power, supernatural, II. of divine things, holy, holy war, Nomos law of sacrifice Hierodoulos A temple slave, Nethinim, Especially of temple courtesans [PROSTITUTES] at Corinth and elsewhere and also of men.
THE LITERATURE DEFINES ALL OF THE FUNCTIONS OF THE LEVITES WHO ARE AGENTS OF DIONYSUS.
Nethinims Probably "Gibeonites who tricked Joshua into sparing them (cf. Josh. 9). [the wineskin ploy] When their ruse was discovered it was decreed (Josh. 9:27) that they serve as hewers of wood and drawers of water for the community and the altar. Ezra 8:20 mentions the Nethinim whom David and his officials had set apart to attend the Levites...At Ugarit there was a class of cultic servitors called ytnm, one of whom has a name that appears in the list in Ezra 2:45-46. It is therefore possible that the Nethinim were an international guild skilled in cultic arts who attached themselves to Israel in an early period. Similar also to the Nethinim in function are the shirku, known from Neo-Babylonian documents.
Josephus knew that the Levites had destroyed Israel the first time and WERE READY to do it again:
6. Now as many of the Levites, (26) which is a tribe of ours, as were singers of hymns, persuaded the king to assemble a sanhedrim, and to give them leave to wear linen garments, as well as the priests
for they said thatthis would be a work worthy the times of his government, that he might have a memorial of such a novelty, as being his doing.
Nor did they fail of obtaining their desire; for the king, with the suffrages of those that came into the sanhedrim, granted the singers of hymns this privilege, that they might lay aside their former garments,
and wear such a linen one as they desired; and as a part of this tribe ministered in the temple,
he also permitted them to learn those hymns as they had besought him for.
Now all this was contrary to the laws of our country, which, whenever they have been transgressed, we have never been able to avoid the punishment of such transgressions.
When Jesus had graound the SOP, used only once, it had the same meaning as PSALLO.
The Judas Bag was "for carrying the mouthpieces of wind instruments" because Psalm 41 prophesied that Judas would try to triumph over Jesus. This was the same MUSICAL REJOICING which was outlawed for the Qahal, synagogue or church in the wilderness.
Maybe the wineskinner singers, betraying Jesus and acting as musicians in the holy place is the MARK and SOUND to stay awake and keep yur clothes with you.
I'm not the Stephen from the other thread Donnie. I post just to remind people here about the importance of loving each other as they debate. I've expressed on this thread earlier how I often find this site very sickening because all that happens is hateful arguments over insignificant issues. The use of musical instruments in worship is an insignificant issue in the big picture of what it means for us to be Christians. I want to encourage people to genuinely love one another. Of course Ken mocks me for my "love thingie" as he calls it. I'm really saddened because he just doesn't understand. The Bible may not be crystal clear about musical instruments but it's perfectly clear about loving God and people.
Your posts are appreciated, and the way you've expressed your thoughts with kindness.
I really don't think you've judged this site in its entirety fairly. Perhaps, you just haven't fully grasped the extent of how the site came into being in the first place or how that the brotherhood had/has been under siege at the time when certain congregations were being taken over completely or partially, not excluding Madison itself. Hopefully, the efforts of change agents subverting, diverting and dividing once-peaceful congregations have been thwarted because of/by insightful and firm leaders, publications and websites in our midst.
I agree with you on the subject of brotherhly love--and perhaps there should be more threads initiated that cover subject matters as love, brotherly love, the conversion process, God's grace (bountiful, used or abused), etc. But, then, this is a religious forum where issues that confront the present-day New Testament church are being discussed and debated. Having said that, I cannot help but admire Ken Sublett for the extensive study and research he has done. To me he is incomparable. Frankly, I cannot think of another individual in this world, or a group of professors and researchers combined, that can surpass his accumulated wealth of information. His research efforts really prove what he knows the Scripture teaches regarding idolatry, musical idolatry, pagan music, pagan entertainment, rites and rituals, etc.
I will have to disagree with your assessment that the use of the musical machinery in the assembly of New Testament Christians being an insignificant issue. Remember the religious census of 1906? You may be right that it is insignificant in the realm of the denominational world or Christendom as a whole. But it certainly is a big issue as/even though only 18-20 of some 18,000 congregations of the church worldwide have gone the opposite way by using IM in the assembly partly or wholly, i.e., toward the direction of the Christian Church or the Community Church.
Well, I am fully convinced that the New Testament is replete with instructions for Christian living, as well as the simplicity of the nature of the gathering of the saints--which should center upon studying God's truth, commemorating the Lord's sacrifice and death on the cross, and edifying, teaching and admonishing one another. Should we be surprised that there was no such thing as musical programming when the first century Christians assembled?
I believe that love or brotherly love encompasses more than just kind words by one being spoken to another. The Scripture teaches that if we love Him that we keep His commandments. Also, I do not believe that there is no love in someone's part just because he delivers the painful truth and is unwilling to compromise the truth.
This web site is not part of or approved by any Church!
...........................THE BOOK
What Happened At the Madison Church of Christ?
There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.
This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison
Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource
references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least
you will recognize the signs early on.
Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't
know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.
Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was
one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.
It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of
it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word
of Jesus Christ.
At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority
of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly
realm.
They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and
to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.
The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan.
Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books,
seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change
so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....
At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to
be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched
through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the
"Community Church Movement"
Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready,
or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the
plans very nature, it had to be secret.
The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was
never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last
15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.
The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the
elders went along unwittingly.
This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell
something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill
in some of the timeline.
To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the
background materials in the first of the book.
This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be
printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our
web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison
Here is the list of players;
5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten
commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
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lease.
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