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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.210.19

Re: Apples vs. Oranges: Musical Instruments vs. Electricity

March 3 2011, 8:23 AM 

So is this guy David vainly trying to make the "point" that electricity is "sinful" because the New Testament doesn't authorize or command it in worship? If so, he could stretch the "point" for a thousand other incidental items, like kitchens, restrooms, podiums, carpets, elevators, and even church buildings as being "sinful," because the New Testament doesn't explicitly authorize them.

David seems to equate things that God explicitly addresses in the New Testment with things that God does not address whatsoever. God through Paul addresses worship music and explicitly authorizes vocal music--singing. We have the command to sing, but we don't have the command to "accompany" or "enhance" the singing with any mechanical instruments. That is, we have the command to make music with our voices; we don't have the command to make music by any other means when we worship. On the other hand, God doesn't even begin to address electricity, PA systems, kitchens, and the like. The reason is that the latter items do not clash with any of God's existing commands. Having them during worship doesn't amount to a hill of beans. On the other hand, the ADDITION of any form of music other than vocal music DOES clash with God's existing command to sing and make melody in the heart. Thus, the melody is NOT to be made with mechanical musical instruments.

These and similar arguments will continue to be on-going until the end of time.

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Re: WHEN A CONGREGATION ELECTS TO USE INSTRUMENTS OF MUSIC IN ITS WORSHIP

March 4 2011, 9:28 AM 

List to William Crump's hypocrisy.
He said about David G....
"So is this guy David vainly trying to make the "point" that electricity is "sinful" because the New Testament doesn't authorize or command it in worship? If so, he could stretch the "point" for a thousand other incidental items, like kitchens, restrooms, podiums, carpets, elevators, and even church buildings as being "sinful," because the New Testament doesn't explicitly authorize them."

Now let's just change up few words and allow the hypocrisy to sink in.

So is this guy William vainly trying to make the "point" that instrumental music is "sinful" because the New Testament doesn't authorize or command it in worship? If so, he could stretch the "point" for a thousand other incidental items, like kitchens, restrooms, podiums, carpets, elevators, and even church buildings as being "sinful," because the New Testament doesn't explicitly authorize them.


This is great stuff guys. David G says that electricity is not authorize, and yet you use the same logic that those who prefer instrumental use.

Let's try it again. This is what William says about David G...
"David seems to equate things that God explicitly addresses in the New Testment (sic) with things that God does not address whatsoever. God through Paul addresses worship music and explicitly authorizes vocal music--singing. We have the command to sing, but we don't have the command to "accompany" or "enhance" the singing with any mechanical instruments. That is, we have the command to make music with our voices; we don't have the command to make music by any other means when we worship. On the other hand, God doesn't even begin to address electricity, PA systems, kitchens, and the like. The reason is that the latter items do not clash with any of God's existing commands. Having them during worship doesn't amount to a hill of beans. On the other hand, the ADDITION of any form of music other than vocal music DOES clash with God's existing command to sing and make melody in the heart. Thus, the melody is NOT to be made with mechanical musical instruments."

Now let's try that again just changing a few words here and there.

William seems to equate things that God explicitly addresses in the New Testament with things that God does not address whatsoever. God through Paul addresses worship music and explicitly authorizes vocal music--singing. We have the command to sing, but we don't have the command to "accompany" or "enhance" the singing with any mechanical instruments. That is, we have the command to make music with our voices; we don't have the command to make music by any other means when we worship. Do we need the command to accompany the voice with instrumental music? We also do not have authority nor a command from God to have electricity, PA systems, the piano, kitchens, and the like. If we sing with our voices, as we our commanded to, are we not accomplishing what God asks of us? The reason that we use the mentioned items is that they do not clash with any of God's existing commands. Having them during worship doesn't amount to a hill of beans. On the other hand, the ADDITION of any form of man adding to the Word of God by calling something a sin....where God has NOT....is really where the sin lies. Music to accompany the vocal music DOES NOT clash with God's existing command to sing and make melody in the heart. Thus, the melody and singing can still be made with mechanical musical instruments.

Its gonna be a good Friday.
William, I did CORRECT your poor misspelling of the TESTMENT part of New Testament.
Tit for tat ole boy....tit for tat.
Can you take the the heat? Some people say that that hardiness of spirit and a stern jaw is a "family trait."



 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.10.90

Re: WHEN A CONGREGATION ELECTS TO USE INSTRUMENTS OF MUSIC IN ITS WORSHIP

March 4 2011, 3:45 PM 

Dave wrote: "List to William Crump's hypocrisy." The very first sentence in Dave's tantrum BEGINS with an error. That's not surprising.

I don't think we can "list to" anything with our ears, but we can LISTEN instead. Dave's mind evidently shorted out after he typed the "t." On the other hand, maybe Dave is pairing with Rocnar to teach us some Ebonics.

Dave also wrote: "...CORRECT your poor misspelling..." That is redundant wording. Dave should have said either "your poor spelling" or "your misspelling."

Dave, I did CORRECT your poor spelling of "listen" as well as your redundant wording. That's a tit for tat back at you, ole boy. Can YOU take the heat? Perhaps someone who makes grammatical errors as often as Dave does really has a "family trait."

Dave should have learned by now that every time he attempts to correct me, I can always find a number of errors with which to nail him. wink.gif

 
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Dave
(no login)
69.59.112.185

4 March-Historical Day

March 5 2011, 5:44 AM 

William, did you actually say this?
"Dave should have learned by now that every time he attempts to correct me, I can always find a number of errors with which to nail him."

WILLIAM!!!
HALLELUJAH!!!

You admitted to being wrong?
You GO boy!!!

It may not seem much, but just like an alcoholic, it starts by admitting that you were/are wrong.

Have a good weekend William Crump. You're on your way.


 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Here We Are But Straying Pilgrims....

March 7 2011, 7:40 PM 

Question 1) William Crump, if you didn't believe your vulgar word to be vulgar, then why hide it with two "$$" signs instead of the original two "ss?" Why not use the more less worldly and non-sinful synonym of "Wise-cracker, or smarty-pants?"

Question 2) William Crump, did you not specify that you use a very good spell-checker? If you did make that claim, and you do use one, then how did Testment (sic) get through?


 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Who doesn't stray?

March 8 2011, 1:57 AM 

Dave,

Your memory is astounding. Relative to the "$$" and its usage, i.e. How long ago was it when you began this argument?

This thread is about:

"When a congregation elect$ to u$e in$trument$ of mu$ic in it$ wor$hip."


Which O.T. instrument or instruments are your favorites?
  • tabret
  • cornet
  • trumpet
  • viol
  • tambourines
  • flute
  • stringed
  • harp
  • cymbal
  • psaltery
  • timbrel [and DANCE]
  • dulcimer
  • sackbut

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.244.242

Re: Who doesn't stray?

March 8 2011, 7:45 AM 

We must indulge Dave a bit. His only "proficiency" here is perseverating about $$ and/or FaithSite. So let him have his "fun"; it's all he's got.

 
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Fred Whaley
(no login)
173.162.22.85

Re: Who doesn't stray?

March 8 2011, 9:32 AM 

Fred prefers the dulcimer.

As long as the heart is engaged in worship (via Ephesians 5 verse 19) the types of instruments or lack of instruments does not matter to God.

Psalm 33:2-3 Praise the LORD with the harp; make music to him on the ten-stringed lyre. Sing to him a new song; play skillfully, and shout for joy.

This verse implies that we can sing play and shout in worship. The point (argument) about singing but without instruments was just defeated by the psalmist.

However we cannot play if it is not skillfully.

Revelation 5:8 mentions 24 elders each having a harp in heaven and singing a new song.

If harps are in heaven then are they sinful? wink.gif

Fred Whaley

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.246.229

Re: Who doesn't stray?

March 8 2011, 10:59 AM 

Since all the visions in Revelation are figures or symbols likened to this or that, does Fred really believe that there are/will be literal, physical "harps" in heaven? Does Fred really believe that literal, physical musical instruments are required to make music in a completely spiritual environment like heaven? If so, that would reduce heaven to being dependent on the physical realm for "music," and that just does not compute. Instead, wouldn't the glorious presence of God Himself be sufficient to produce all the "music" heaven would ever need?

To say that Christians on earth can use instruments in worship because the heavenly symbolisms in Revelation mention "harps" is a far stretch that compares apples with oranges.

 
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Ken
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
72.171.0.148

No instruments allowed without temple and animal slaughter

March 8 2011, 1:19 PM 

"Only in Ps 150:3 is it (shophar) mentioned with most of the other really musical instruments. Hence, we must conclude that the function of the shophar was to make noise--be it of earthly or of eschatological character--but not to make music. After the destruction of the temple and the general banishment of all instrumental music, the shophar alone survived, just because it was not a musical instrument."(International Dictionary of the Bible, p. 473, Abingdon).



    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 72.171.0.148 on Mar 8, 2011 1:21 PM


 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.240.211.197

Re: Here We Are But Straying Pilgrims....

March 8 2011, 8:34 AM 

I noted that, although Dave tried to play the "teacher," he did not deny my statement, "I can always find a number of errors with which to nail [Dave]." He certainly couldn't deny it, because there are just too many of his errors on exhibit in the SGP thread.

Instead, Dave quickly resorted to his usual, hopeless tactic of perseverating about $$ in a vain attempt to divert the topic.

 
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Rocnar
(no login)
98.81.46.174

Full Circle

March 8 2011, 10:41 AM 

Dr. Crump, this is not the first time you have misspelled "testament". wink.gif Take a lesson, we all make mistakes, get over it. You are not any better than the rest of us.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.13.171

Jeering Can Backfire

March 8 2011, 12:56 PM 

While Dave perseverates about $$ and FaithSite, Rocnar perseverates about Dr. Crump's "Testment" [sic] typo. Rocnar needs to learn that jeering at Dr. Crump can backfire on Rocnar.

Rocnar wrote, "Take a lesson, we all make mistakes, get over it." This "sentence" demonstrates comma splices. "A comma splice is an error caused by joining two strong clauses with only a comma instead of separating the clauses with a conjunction, a semicolon, or a period." Rocnar's sentence demonstrates not one but TWO comma splices.

The corrections could be rendered as follows: "Take a lesson. We all make mistakes. Get over it." OR "Take a lesson; we all make mistakes; get over it." OR "Take a lesson. We all make mistakes; get over it." OR "Take a lesson; we all make mistakes. Get over it." OR "Take a lesson. We all make mistakes, so get over it." Other possibilities exist.

The wise teacher (Dr. Crump) has put the jeering student (Rocnar) in his place. wink.gif

Reference: http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/commas.asp (rule 14)

 
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Fred Whaley
(no login)
173.162.22.85

Re: Here We Are But Straying Pilgrims....

March 8 2011, 11:48 AM 

Psalm 33:2-3 IS literal and is NOT comparing apples to oranges. Fred understands Revelation is symbolic but at least you do not get the impression that harps are SINFUL pertaining to WORSHIP. wink.gif

Fred Whaley

 
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Anonymous
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
72.171.0.148

Re: WHEN A CONGREGATION ELECTS TO USE INSTRUMENTS OF MUSIC IN ITS WORSHIP

March 8 2011, 11:23 AM 

As long as the heart is engaged in worship (via Ephesians 5 verse 19) the types of instruments or lack of instruments does not matter to God.

You ignored my post: Paul said that we worship God IN THE SPIRIT which is in contrast to IN THE FLESH. That is because the dogs and concision (catamites) lusted to get into the flock "seeking whom they might devour." They were the old style praise singers.

[linked image]

Psalm 33:2-3 Praise the LORD with the harp; make music to him on the ten-stringed lyre. Sing to him a new song; play skillfully, and shout for joy.

This is not a PSALM but a HALAL which is the root word for LUCIFER: this was a warrior's chant and not a PATTERNISM for congregational worship which was defined by Christ for the synagogue which EXCLUDED blowing the horns.

[linked image]

It was unlawful for the godly people to make vocal or instrumental rejoicing which was a style making School of the Word impossible. Sabbath excludes instruments and the Greek PAUL or rest excludes instruments on the REST day where Christ outlawed seeking your own pleasure or speaking your own words: The direction of information flow is FROM God TO the ekklesia or synagogue: we have no words to TRUMP those of Christ in the Prophets and Apostles upon which the Church of Christ is built: if you want to build your church upon the foundation of the "lying pen of the Scribes" from the ungodly sacrificial system Jesus called hypocrites meaning slick speakers, entertainment singers and instrument players.

 
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Anonymous
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
72.171.0.148

No one PLAYS harps:

March 8 2011, 11:59 AM 

We are on the earth: Mount Zion. We hear SOUNDS LIKE up in the AIR (heaven).

[linked image]

ALL of these SOUNDS LIKE are documented to create PANIC: when you HEAR all of the instruments PLAYED it is the SOUNDS OF JUDGMENT. Now that we and most Bible-based groups HAVE heard all of the professional instrumentalists (parasites) make the sounds in the Holy Place of church architecture we, who are still living (spiritually) are to PREACH THE GOSPEL for Time is Short.

HOLDING the harps of GOD (not David's) means to "Apprehend the Word of God." God plays the prophets with His breath (spirit)

When Satan is restrained there is no fear: if you are a DEAD VIRGIN then you can play your harp. However, on real toombstones the one bringing the harp TO THE DEAD are never PLAYING the harp.


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 72.171.0.148 on Mar 8, 2011 12:02 PM


 
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Fred Whaley
(no login)
173.162.22.85

Re: WHEN A CONGREGATION ELECTS TO USE INSTRUMENTS OF MUSIC IN ITS WORSHIP

March 9 2011, 10:53 AM 

At the end of Ken's message in the first sentence of his concluding paragraph he states - "It was unlawful for the godly people to make vocal or instrumental rejoicing which was a style making School of the Word impossible."

Is Ken saying it was unlawful for godly people to make vocal rejoicing?

Again........abbreviated.........."It was unlawful......to make VOCAL OR instrumental rejoicing........"

Is Ken a false teacher? Is he teaching the commandments of m(K)en?

There are numerous Scriptures that say to sing to God!

Every church I know of in America and the world sing to God!

Maybe...............MAYBE..............KEN is wrong and not EVERYONE ELSE in the Christian world.

Fred Whaley

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.43

Re: WHEN A CONGREGATION ELECTS TO USE INSTRUMENTS OF MUSIC IN ITS WORSHIP

March 8 2011, 9:41 PM 

'The Pope's Eunuchs [beginning of text]: The Origin of A Cappella singers.

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_mccabe/lies_of_britannica.html

A few years ago I had occasion to refer in one of my books to the male soprani of the papel chapel at Rome.

These castrated males, sexually mutilated, as every priest and every Italian knew,

for soprani in the choir of the Sistine Chapel, were the amusement of Rome when it developed a large degree of skepticism

but a grave scandal to the American and British Catholics who began to arrive about the middle of the last century.

One of the vices which the Spaniards had brought to Italy in the 16 century along with the Borgia family and the Spanish Roman Emperors was the falsetto singer. There were artists who could sing falsetto with distinction, but as the opera gained in popularity in Italy the practice began of emasculating boys with good voices and retaining them as male soprani or,

as the Italians, with their usual lack of Christian reticence about sex called them, the castrati. They were in every opera in the 18th century, but foreign visitors were never reconciled to them. The famous English weekly,

The Spectator, wrote about "the shrill celestial whine of eunuchs," and by the end of the 18th century they began to fade out of the opera-house.

But, as the word "celestial" indicates, they were found also in the choir of all churches that were proud of their music, particularly in the chapel of the Vatican Palace, the Sistine Chapel, one of the greatest shrines of art as well as of virtue and piety in Rome.

And the churches clung [sic] to their eunuchs when public opinion almost drove them out of opera.

The plea seems to have been that there was some indelicacy, or risk of it, in having females in the church choir, so the priests chose to ignore the rather indelicate nature of the operation of emasculation.The fact was as well known as the celibacy of the clergy.' [3].


Modern Changelings-hirelings use the Levite infant burners as their patternism:

THEIR FORM OF PERFORMANCE: AS FEMALES, A CAPELLA

5961. Alamowth, al-aw-moth´; plural of 5959; properly, girls, i.e. the soprano or female voice, perhaps falsetto:--Alamoth. 1) young women, soprano?

b) a term in psalm heading - Alamoth

Psalm.Delitzsch.Psalm.html

Moreover, we must take into consideration the facts that the compass of the tenor extends even into the soprano, that the singers were of different ages down to twenty years of age, and that Oriental, and more particularly even Jewish, song is fond of falsetto singing. We therefore adopt Perret- Gentil's rendering, chant avec voix de femmes, and still more readily Armand de Mestral's, en soprano


5959. almah, al-maw´; feminine of 5958; a lass (as veiled or private):--damsel, maid, virgin.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.43

"Congregations" never turn to instruments!

March 8 2011, 11:06 PM 

Based on all recorded data there will be a "mother" who dominates the "elders" and in a conspiracy of the preacher who has lost his way, instruments are always FORCED over the objection of a large percentage of the congregation who flees Babylon and does not look back: Christ in Isaiah 3 prophesied of the women and effeminate in a hostile taking a church into captivity.

1 Chr. 15:27 And David was clothed with a robe of fine linen, and all the Levites that bare the ark, and the singers, and Chenaniah the master of the song with the singers: David also had upon him an ephod of linen.

THE A CAPPELLA WORSHIP LEADER: THE GOAT SINGERS OR CASTRATOS.

A deeper-reaching attempt to explain the significance of the castrato age has been made by Moses (1960) in an interesting paper on the psychology of the castrato voice.
....He interprets the emergence of this vocal fashion
....as the fulfillment of an age-old dream wish of bisexual hermaphroditism.
Even if one does not follow Moses in some of his somewhat overdrawn conclusions,
....there is left enough of a solid basis for his theory.
....Hermaphroditic mythology plays an important part in cultural history.
.... In collections of primitive art one sometimes see sculptures of idols each with female breasts and a penis

Voices mirror not only individual characters but the spirit of a period as well.
....In this sense the voice of the castrato personifies the bisexual ideal
....with its unity of a female voice in a man's body.
In the mythological atmosphere of the baroque opera
....the castrato portrayed gods and mythological persons
....who presented male and female characteristics
....in a vocal hermaphroditic combination.

In an unfinished book that Paul Moses left at his death he predicted, over ten years ago, quite correctly the approach of another age of crossover of the sexes.
....The young generation of today favors fashions that obliterate the differences between the sexes.
....Girls wear pants, and young men sport girlish long hair
....and wear necklaces and bracelets.

The classical love song of the nineteenth century,
....the love-centered operettas, and the popular songs of the "June-moon"
....variety of the first half of this century have given way
....to the harsh rhythms of rock and roll of the unisex generation.

And the phoniatrist sees among his patients
....an increasing number of young adult males
....who do not use the deep masculine voice
....that the pubertal growth of the larynx
....offers but continue to speak in an artificial high pitch of almost female sound. Friedrich S. Brodnitz, M.D.

CONSISTENT WITH RESTORING HEBREW ROOTS

Delitzsch on Psalms: Moreover, we must take into consideration the facts that the
"Hebrew music... was used in the luxurious times of the later monarchy
....the effeminate gallants of israel, reeking with perfumes,
....and stretched upon their couches of ivory,
....were wont at their banquets to accompany the song
....with the tinkling of the psaltery or guitar (Am. v1. 4-6),
....and amused themselves with devising musical instruments
....while their nation was perishing... (Smith's Bible Dictionary, Music, p. 590).

 
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Dave
(no login)
69.59.112.185

Will it Go Round in Circles?

March 9 2011, 1:51 AM 

William Crump, here is an observation. I don't use a spell checker, so I type on the fly and get a high percentage of my grammar and spelling right. You however, do use a spell-checker and make mistake after mistake. The moral of this story? Anyone can call themselves a Christian. Perhaps it is, as you say, a family trait. A dominant recessive gene? I bet you were expecting something a little less scathing???

"A dominant recessive gene?" Hey William, that is not a complete sentence, is it?

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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