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Ray
(no login)
75.53.156.225

RE: Don't lose sight of the context

May 19 2009, 8:47 PM 

Donnie, you wrote, "May I urge you to limit this discussion to that which has to do with the assembly of Christians and instrumental music is involved?"

If we are to limit this discussion to that which has to do with the assembly of Christians and instrumental music is involved, then we will have to exclude Ephesians 5-6 and Colossians 3, because neither of these passages have anything to do with the assembly of Christians. Both have only to to do with living as imitators of Christ.

The key passages on Christian assembly are found in 1 Corinthians 11-14.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
72.154.193.102

RE: Don't lose sight of the context

May 19 2009, 10:02 PM 

Ray,

No, the discussion at hand is dealing with the controversy regarding instrumental music in the assembly. Is it not?

I don't believe you understand at all that the passages in Eph. 5 and Col. 3 are used by both sides of the argument. One side states that singing is mentioned with specificity; that singing with grace and melody in your heart is no less than specific. The other side states that where God does not say "NOT TO" means His approval or authorization.

My point, Ray, is that whether or not you believe that teaching and admonishing ONE ANOTHER precludes an assembly of only one person, the controversy with regard to instrumental music does not go away. So, it is from that premise that discussion of this thread is to continue.

Please don't forget that I have also urged you to initiate another thread that deals with Christian living on the part of the individual himself. You've already mentioned many factors why such a discussion, apart from the controversial instrumental music issue, is significant.

A discussion of Christian living itself can be another and a different controversy altogether especially when both sides of the argument have to deal with God's grace and mercy and with man's response to His offer of free redemption in the blood of Christ. Does a Christian live by faith only or does he produce good works; etc.?

Or, are you attempting to divert the discussion from instrumental music because you're unable to produce evidence that God directs Christians to "praise" Him with musical devices as David the king ordained them?

 
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Ray
(no login)
76.237.23.160

The Bible does not agree

May 3 2009, 4:08 PM 

Donnie,

You said, "The use of man-made musical devices in worship was neither God-ordained nor God-directed even in the old law."

The Bible - and therefore God - does not agree.

It is no wonder your philosophy and that of your mentors have strayed so far from the Word of God. You seem to deny so much of what the Word of God clearly teaches and instead cling to your man-made conclusions.

I really pity brothers in the Lord such as yourself and your mentors who deny so much of what God has taught in His Holy Word, or twist it into something God never intended in order to fit the traditions taught by mere men.

You have my prayers that you heart will no longer be so hard, and that you will accept all the teachings of God and not the just the buffet variety where you can pick and choose just the parts you like.

Blessings.


 
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Ken Sublett
(no login)
207.65.228.237

Music outlawed: singing added about 373. Too Late to be NT.

May 4 2009, 1:03 PM 

The Qahal, synagogue or church in the wilderness was INCLUSIVE of Resting, reading and reharsing the Word of God. It was EXCLUSIVE of vocal or instrument rejoicing. This never changed down through history and you will notice that Jesus STOOD UP to read the word and DECENTLY sat down and waited for discussion. That is why even the Gentiles were ready to hear the gospel:

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time
hath in every city them that preach him,
being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.


That quarantined them into the Church of Christ (ordained by Christ) FROM the temple where they PROFANED the Sabbath by making sacrifices with loud exorcism NOISE which is never called music. The CHURCH as school is the NARROW WAY and trying to restore the music always for EXORCISM and called SORCERY is even now the BROAD WAY.

No one could without lots of MISTEACHING hallucinate MUSIC because Paul's ONLY worship concept means to give heed to the Word of Christ or that which is written.

No one DARED for almost 400 years and then by the GNOSTICS which defines the "distinctily American form of religion with no connection to historic Christianity."

"In Gnostic circles religious poetry arose to compete with the Old Testament Psalms. Some Catholics therefore distrusted the composition of hymns after this pattern, on the ground that they might smack of heresy. Yet from at least the second century hymns were written by the orthodox which, like their Gnostic counterparts, employed the forms of Greek poetry...

Until near the end of the fourth century, in the services of the Catholic Church
only the Old Testament Psalms and
the hymns or canticles from the New Testament were sung:
the other hymns were for personal family, or private use.

Gradually there were prepared versical paraphrases of the Psalms, hymns
with lines of equal length, and hymns which were acrostic." (Latourette, Christianity. p. 207).

To Ephraim pertains the high and unique distinction of having originated-or at least given its living impulse to-a new departure in sacred literature; and that, not for his own country merely, but for Christendom.

From him came, if not the first idea, at all events the first successful example,
of making song an essential constituent of public worship,
and an exponent of theological teaching;

and from him it spread and prevailed through the Eastern Churches, and affected even those of the West.
To the Hymns, on which chiefly his fame rests, the Syriac ritual in all its forms owes much of its strength and richness; and to them is largely due the place which Hymnody holds throughout the Church everywhere.


Even then Ephraem's hymns would allow you to LEARN the story line of the Old Testament INCLUDING the musical idolatry of the trinity at Mount Sinai."

http://www.piney.com/EphraimHymns.html


 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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68.19.196.24

Re: The Bible does not agree

May 19 2009, 10:29 AM 

Talk about a pick-and-choose religion, if people are going to fall back on the Old Testament Psalms (like Psalm 150) as their authority for IM in Christian worship, then they will have no qualms about following the other practices of the Law of Moses to which the Psalms refer. Observe:

"I will go into thy house with burnt offerings: I will pay thee my vows, Which my lips have uttered, and my mouth hath spoken, when I was in trouble. I will offer unto thee burnt sacrifices of fatlings, with the incense of rams; I will offer bullocks with goats. Selah" (Psalm 66:13-15 KJV).

Now if a person is bent on using the Psalms to justify IM in Christian worship, would he not object to offering burnt sacrifices as the ancient Jews did? The Psalms clearly call for sacrifices. Is a person going to implement the IM but disregard the burnt sacrifices? If he does, then he engages in a pick-and-choose religion.

Or, a person can follow the New Testament entirely and put away the practices of the Old Testament Law of Moses (burnt sacrifices, incense, IM, etc.), which Christ nailed to His cross (Col. 2:14).

 
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Ray
(no login)
75.53.156.225

Crump doesn't get it

May 19 2009, 8:50 PM 

Dr Bill. Please come back when you understand the role of the Old Covenant, and of the sacrifice Jesus.

 
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Mark Waggoner
(no login)
192.91.171.42

Re: Crump doesn't get it

May 20 2009, 4:00 PM 

Perhaps this explains what Dr. Crump was saying... if you use the old law for any religious practice then you must keep the whole law.

Galatians 5:1-7 (ASV)
5:1 For freedom did Christ set us free: stand fast therefore, and be not entangled again in a yoke of bondage. 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that, if ye receive circumcision, Christ will profit you nothing. 5:3 Yea, I testify again to every man that receiveth circumcision, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 5:4 Ye are severed from Christ, ye would be justified by the law; ye are fallen away from grace. 5:5 For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness. 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love. 5:7 Ye were running well; who hindered you that ye should not obey the truth?

 
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Ray
(no login)
75.53.156.225

Re: Crump doesn't get it

May 20 2009, 8:23 PM 

"Perhaps this explains what Dr. Crump was saying... if you use the old law for any religious practice then you must keep the whole law."

No. This doesn't explain it all for anyone who understands the Bible. Example - Thou shalt not kill. Following yours, and Crump's explanation, if we keep this law, then we keep the whole OT.

What were the two greatest commandments? If we keep both of those, then you and Crump are saying that we must keep all the commands in the OT.

Only someone who does not recognize the role of the OT and the meaning of the sacrifice of Jesus would fail to grasp the silliness of such a position.

Also note that this thread was hijacked by Crump - the post he responded to was not saying we can use intrumental music because the OT says we can. The comment he hijacked said that Donnie and Ken asserion that instruments were NEVER authorized by God was wrong and against the teaching of the OT Scriptures.

Anyone who teaches that instrumental music was NEVER authorized by God either does not care what is taught in God's word, or is a deceiver.

 
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Mark Waggoner
(no login)
192.31.106.34

Re: Crump doesn't get it

May 21 2009, 9:52 AM 

My example has been misrepresented. Doesn't the New Testament also condemn murder, adultery, idolatry, theft, etc.? These are sins under both the old and new covenants. Sin is sin and law is law. The Law was a tutor to bring us to Christ (it identified what sin is) Ga. 3:22-27. Christ came to fullfill the Law and do what it could not do, provide an attonement for all sin. He was given ALL authority and we must stay within the confines of that authority if we truly love him. We no longer keep the Sabbath, burn incense, offer animal sacrifices, or use musical instruments in worship because they lie outside of what we are authorized to do. Only someone who goes beyond God's Word could be so arrogant to ignore it, I Co. 4:6,7.

 
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Ray
(no login)
75.53.156.225

Re: Crump doesn't get it

May 21 2009, 7:35 PM 

Mark wrote: "Doesn't the New Testament also condemn murder, adultery, idolatry, theft, etc.? These are sins under both the old and new covenants. Sin is sin and law is law. The Law was a tutor to bring us to Christ (it identified what sin is) Ga. 3:22-27. Christ came to fullfill the Law and do what it could not do, provide an attonement for all sin. He was given ALL authority and we must stay within the confines of that authority if we truly love him."

Precisely!

Whether you believe we should use them today or not, the fact remains that God DID authorize the use of Instrumental Music in the inspired writings of the Old Covenant, and He NEVER inspired any writer to write that He changed His mind.

Donnie and Ken teach falsely that God never authorized Intrumental Music. God DID authorize and inspired psalmists to write about prasing Him with instrumental music.

God bless.

 
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Mark Waggoner
(no login)
192.31.106.34

Re: Crump doesn't get it

May 22 2009, 9:30 AM 

So then, we are sinning today when we do not dance, burn incense, etc. since God "never inspired any writer to write that He changed His mind" on those activities?

 
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Ray
(no login)
75.53.156.225

Re: Crump doesn't get it

May 22 2009, 2:57 PM 

Mark wrote: "So then, we are sinning today when we do not dance, burn incense, etc. since God "never inspired any writer to write that He changed His mind" on those activities?"

Was Paul sinning when he took the four Christian men and purified himself along with them, went to the temple to give notice of the date when the days of purification would end, and gave notice with the intent of making the offering for each of them?

Mark, you confuse what we are required to do to be saved with what is not a requirement for salvation.

Do you endorse the false teaching promoted by Donnie and Ken that God NEVER authorized instrumental music anywhere in the scriptures?

God bless

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
170.142.158.4

RE: Questioning the "Determining Aids and Additions" Chart

May 21 2009, 1:14 PM 



RE: Questioning the "Determining Aids and Additions" Chart May 19 2009, 11:49 AM


Chris writes:

Donnie,

I appreciate your response, but you really didn't address the issue I was hoping you would.

Please explain the difference between "sing and play" and "sing and read." If your contention is that we can only do that which is authorized, and the text you are using indicates we are to "sing" and "make melody in our hearts" then the conclusion is that anything other than that is not correct, right?

Therefore, wouldn't "read and sing" be no different than "play and sing" because both are not "sing and make melody in our hearts"?


____________________________

Chris,

I was also hoping that you would have ordered the contrasting events as follows:

  • "READ and SING": First, I must point out that it would even be better if God's truth in the song did not have to be read at all. But if it is necessary for God's truth in the hymn to be read, then, the "reading material" [in this case, the hymnbook] is an aid. Singing does not have to be complex. It can be done by reciting the word of Christ expressed or stated in the hymn. The recitation satisfies the key directive in the "speaking to yourselves in ... songs."

    In fact, we must take into consideration that the key directive in Eph. 5:19 is "speaking to yourselves in ... songs." The expression "singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord," when taken in context of the entire passage, is an adjunct to the key component -- "speak to yourselves."

    "Singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord" is often a misunderstood expression. The action words: (a) "singing" and (b) "making melody in your hearts," while joined by the conjunction "and," are inseparable in context and refer to the same expectation of verbalizing the truth by singing from the heart. In the statement, "Bread and butter is my food," notice the singular verb "is" which indicates that "butter without the bread" is not my food.

    Outside of Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16, "reading" is encouraged. Remember when Paul admonished Timothy to "give attendance to READING, to exhortation, to doctrine" (I Tim. 4:13)? So, reading the word of Christ in the hymn is not an addition to God's directive to "speaking to yourselves ... in songs."


  • "SING and PLAY": Chris, I had to reverse your components in "PLAY and SING" to "SING and PLAY." Because "singing" is the native component and "playing" is the alien and the intruder. Unlike "singing and making melody in your heart" being inseparable, "singing" and "playing the musical device" are separable. Even from a practical standpoint, there's no reason why God would be interested in what inanimate, lifeless and HEARTless musical devices can offer. God has never ordained musical instruments and has never directed His people to allow musical objects to participate in the assembly. Remember, it was David (not God), the skilled musician, who ordained musical instruments. You can read that in II Chronicles 29:27.

    Furthermore, II Chronicles 29, musical instruments (ordained by David king of Israel) were not separated from the blood sacrifices and burnt offerings. The chapter enumerates the numbers of different animals sacrificed and offered:

    -- 70 bullocks
    -- 100 rams
    -- 200 lambs
    -- 600 oxen
    -- 3,000 sheep


Playing musical devices (including timbrels, cymbals, trumpets, psalteries, etc.) is an addition to God's directive to "let the word of Christ dwell in you richly ... teaching and admonishing one another in ... songs."

 
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Chris
(no login)
69.7.167.129

RE: Still Questioning the "Determining Aids and Additions" Chart

May 22 2009, 10:35 AM 

Donnie,

Once again, I appreciate your response; but, to be honest, I am somewhat confused by your comments. You indicate the need to reverse my components from play and sing to sing and play because singing is the native component. This is all well and good, and I do not object if you are going to be consistent in your application of that rule, but you fail to use that rule when dealing with read and sing. Therefore, I am left to wonder why singing is the native component in sing and play but not in read and sing?

You have also argued that singing and making melody in your heart are inseparable, and have indicated that singing and playing the musical device are separable, thus you reason that playing would be an addition rather than an aid. Yet, in the same post you indicate that reading is not necessary; which would mean that reading and singing are separable, the same as singing and playing. If they are both separable from the native component, how do you determine one to be an aid and the other to be an addition?





 
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Anonymous
(no login)
67.142.130.23

Re: RE: Still Questioning the "Determining Aids and Additions" Chart

May 22 2009, 12:30 PM 

UNDER THE MONARCHY WHICH WENT BEYOND THE LAW OF MOSES WHICH OUTLAWED VOCAL AND INSTRUMENTAL REJOICING BECAUSE THE QAHAL, SYNAGOGUE OR CHURCH (OF CHRIST) IN THE WILDERNESS OUTLAWED IT EVEN IF COMMON DECENCY WOULD NOT WHEN YOU ASSEMBLE AS A "SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE":

1 Chr 25:1 David, together with the commanders of the army, set apart some of the sons of Asaph, Heman and Jeduthun for the ministry of prophesying, accompanied by harps, lyres and cymbals. Here is the list of the men who performed this service:

Payne insists that the Hebrew of 1 Chronicles 25:1 unambiguously identifies these leaders as military commanders, an interpretation favoured by several Bible translations. (Payne, p 423-4; NASB, NIV, NKJV, NRSV, Jerusalem Bible) If military commanders had a particular interest in the appointment of musicians, it suggests a strong link between music and warfare


"The Hithpa'el of nb', in the ancient texts, refers to ecstasy and delirium rather than to the emission of a 'prophecy'." (de Vaux, Roland, The Bible and the Ancient Near East, p. 243 Doubleday

"Maniac inspirations, the violent possession which threw sibyls and priestesses into contortions--the foaming lip and streaming hair and glazed or glaring eyes-- have no place in the self-controlling dignity of Christian inspiration. Even Jewish prophets, in the paroxysm of emotion, might lie naked on the ground and rave (1 Sam. xix. 24); but the genuine inspiration in Christian ages never obliterates the self-consciousness or overpowers the reason. It abhors the hysteria and stimulation and frenzy which have sometimes disgraced revivalism and filled lunatic asylums." (Pulpit Commentary, 1 Cor., p. 460).

"Many of the Psalms are expressive of the parade dance, or dance procession, in a way which show it to have been the characteristic form of the festival (Psalms 30:12, 87:7, 149:3, 150:4; Is. 30:29) and that this was where many of the Psalms were used." ( W. O. E. Osterley, The Sacred Dance (Cambridge: N. P., 1923), p. 94)


Isaiah 30 defines HELL and reveals the MARKS or SOUNDS of God driving His enemies into hell already: they are the wind, string and percussion instruments that Lucifer the singing and harp playing prostitute brought with him/her into the garden of Eden: the same instrumental TRUMPET SOUNDS which signals the END of the same Babylon mother of harlots (Rev 17) who uses the same "lusted after fruits" as speakers, singers and instrument players John continues to call SORCERERS used to deceive the whole world.

http://www.piney.com/Isa30LXX.html

THE WAY TO FIND THE CHURCH OF CHRIST ON SUNDAY MORNING FOLLOWING THE DIRECT COMMANDS NOT TO UISE INSTRUMENTS (NUM 10) AND TEACHING AND HONORING CHRIST THE SPIRIT WHO GAVE US THE SONGS AND SERMONS TO TEACH THE GOOD, BAD AND UGLY.

Matt 26:30And when they had sung G5214 an hymn G5214 they went G1831 out into G1519 the mount G3735 of Olives G1636.

[30] Kai humnêsantes exêlthon eis to Oros tôn Elaiôn.

Humneo in Prose, celebrate in a hymn, commemorate, 2 .descant upon, in song or speech, II. tell over and over again, harp upon, repeat, recite, Proverbs 1:20, sing, recite the form of the law, Id.Lg.871a: chant X.Ages.11.2

Decanto C. Esp., to repeat as a charm, and hence to bewitch, enchant, charm, I. To sing a thing off, to repeat in a singing manner (v. cano and canto). to recite, rehearse,


If you SING A HYMN the Greek is HUMNOIDIA,
If literate Paul wanted to say sing and play the harp the word is PSALMODIA.

The worshipers of ZEUS would HYMIZO or ASCRIBE (hymn) the SOURCE of their laws as ZEUS who was the FATHER Jesus intended to repudiate rather than teach THREE GODS.

Plato Laws

[624a] Athenian: To whom do you ASCRIBE the authorship of your legal arrangements, Strangers? To a god or to some man?

Clinias To a god, Stranger, most rightfully to a god. We Cretans call Zeus our lawgiver; while in Lacedaemon, where our friend here has his home, I believe they claim Apollo as theirs. Is not that so, Megillus?


GOD MADE IT EASY TO STEER CLEAR OF LEGALISM: SINGING THE LAWS OF ZEUS (PAGAN FATHER) OR APOLLO WHO IS THE ABADDON OR APOLLYON IN REVELATION AND THE "LUSTED AFTER FRUITS" ARE HIS MUSICAL WORSHIP TEAM: ASSUREDLY A TRUMP, SHAKING SOUND HEARD ALL AROUND THE WORLD AT THE SAME TIME IN ALL RELIGIOUS GROUPS.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
170.142.158.4

RE: Still Questioning the "Determining Aids and Additions" Chart

May 22 2009, 5:36 PM 

Chris,

I gather from the above post that you agree that "PLAYING" musical devices is an addition. Am I correct in arriving at that conclusion that "PLAYING" is an addition to "SINGING"? Do you have any objection to that conclusion? If not, then, we now can deal with only the "reading and singing" issue as follows:


  • Needless to say, reading [of God's truth in the hymn] is not necessary if the congregants are familiar with the hymn or have it sung from memory. You have no argument against that, correct?

    In this case, "singing" of God's truth via "psalms, hymns and spiritual songs" is all by itself as a native component. There is no question regarding the order of components since there is only one component under consideration -- which is "singing." There is also no question regarding a different component [as PLAYING a musical device] being an addition to "singing."


  • So far as "reading" (when it is necessary) and "singing" as being dual components is concerned, you are making this issue unnecessarily complicated.

    Since reading is necessary, in this particular case, these two components are inseparable. Reading is necessitated by singing. Therefore, the use of a hymnbook from which to read the hymn to be sung (or recited) is an aid -- not an addition. "Reading God's truth in words and singing those words" follows the same statement composition as "bread and butter is my food." In the food analogy, butter is not my food. In the singing analogy, without the words being recited, what comes out of the vocal cords will be unintelligble.

    [NOTE: Let's not confuse: (1) "reading as necessary and singing" with (2) singing from memory without the hymnbook.]


  • "Singing" and "playing" are unquestionably separable. With all elements considered, either: (1) the congregants "sing" or (2) the designated musician "plays" or (3) both the congregants "sing" while the designated musician "plays."

    The scriptures clearly indicate God's simple directive: to "teach and admonish ONE ANOTHER [the primary directive] in (via) singing [or reciting/vocalizing] psalms and hymns and spiritual songs."

    When the designated musician(s) play without singing, the dynamics of following God's directive changes and is, therefore, violated. Remember the key directive is to "teach and admonish ONE ANOTHER" which musical devices are incapable of doing.

    When the designated musician(s) play while the congregants sing, the dynamics of following God's directive changes and is, therefore, violated. Remember the key directive is to "teach and admonish ONE ANOTHER" which musicians and musical devices are incapable of doing.


Chris, I notice that you don't seem convinced that the primary objective in the assembly is "teaching and admonishing one another God's truth or with the word of Christ." And this can be accomplished via one mode, i.e., "in ... songs." You don't make mention of it. So, I wonder why. I wonder because when one reaches that point of understanding God's key directive, all else will fall in place.

In conclusion, "teaching and admonishing one another God's word" can be accomplished via reciting or singing about the Lord and His word in those hymns, but cannot be accomplished in PLAYING inanimate, lifeless and heartless musical devices.


 
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Chris
(no login)
69.7.167.129

RE: Still Questioning the "Determining Aids and Additions" Chart

May 26 2009, 10:34 AM 

Donnie,

Contrary to your gathering I did not indicate in my post whether or not I agreed with you that playing musical devices is an addition; for at the present time I am not ready to concede that such is the case.

The reading and singing issue is not an issue with which I struggle; for I have no problem understanding song books, sheet music, or whatever as an aid to singing. The issue I have relates to the inconsistency of your argument, not with whether or not someone reads from a song book while they sing.

You have labeled playing as an addition because the text informs us to sing not to sing and play. But, at the same time, you have concluded that reading is to be considered as an aid even though the text doesnt say read and sing. To me, this is inconsistent and doesnt address the question of how we determine which items are additions and which ones are aids.

Neither word, play or read, appears in the text; therefore both could be considered as aids or additions. The question becomes how do I determine which one in this case is an aid and which is an addition. And, how do we determine that these two items are different from each other and should not both be considered as aids, or as additions?

Please address these concerns with your thoughts and the consistency of your arguments.

Also, you state, Chris, I notice that you dont seem convinced that the primary objective in the assembly is teaching and admonishing one another Gods truth or with the word of Christ. To be honest, Donnie, I am not convinced that such is the case; for I believe the primary purpose of the assembly is to worship to God, secondary to that, or a byproduct of worship, is mutual edification. It is through our worship that we teach and admonish each other, that is our primary objective.

Regarding your conclusion, yes, teaching and admonishing one another can be accomplished through reciting passages or singing about the Lord and his word in hymns. I dont think anyone disagrees with you. However, no one is suggesting that the playing of an inanimate, lifeless and heartless musical device takes the place of personally worshiping God and edifying one another, because the use of such is only seen as an aid to offer what God has requested, which is worship in song.

Now, before you go and gather something from this post that isnt necessarily stated, let me offer the following: I do not worship with instruments, I am simply rethinking some of the traditional stances upon which my faith has been built and asking whether or not those stances are in line with truth. I wont lie, I have sincere doubts and questions about some of those traditional stances; and, I am simply addressing and asking those questions in this forum.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
170.142.158.4

RE: Still Questioning the "Determining Aids and Additions" Chart

June 1 2009, 4:55 PM 

Chris,

READING and SINGING: I think I have clearly illustrated this with: "Bread and butter IS my food." While the conjunction "and" is present in that statement, one can deduce from it that "butter" is not my food. (Can you imagine "butter" being your food?) For the same reason, where reading the hymn [God's truth or message] is necessary in order to sing it, the hymn book or sheet music is simply an aid. Reading itself is never an addition to singing.

I think it is very important to take into account man's RESPONSE to God's directive. With singing, there's no other response from man except to SING.

There is NO ADDITION.

SINGING and PLAYING: Again, God's directive is "teaching and admonishing one another in ... songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." It is also very important to take into account man's RESPONSE to God's directive. Playing musical devices is NOT NECESSARY in order to accomplish God's directive to "teach and admonish ONE ANOTHER IN SONGS." When man responds to God's directive differently, his response is a MODIFIED RESPONSE or an ADDITION. Can you imagine God's directive being: "Teach and admonish one another with musical instruments"? Besides that being not a directive from God, it is impossible to allow musical devices to teach God's truth.


THEREFORE, there is no inconsistency in the chart provided:

(1) SINGING (even when reading is necessary) is SINGING.
(2) PLAYING (with or without singing) is an entirely different activity.

WORSHIP vs. ASSEMBLY: We'll just have to disagree a little bit with each other on this one. Worship "programming" is not specified in Scripture -- other than to "worship Him in spirit and in truth." In the end, the individual is accountable to God for his own worship whether he is: (1) in the gathering of saints or (2) in private. All we know is that we observe the Lord's Supper to commemorate His suffering and death on the cross; that we fellowship with and exhort one another.

It is clear to me that the key element in Col. 3:16 and Eph. 5:19 is "the word of Christ." "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom."

It is implied in those passages there is a gathering of saints: (1) "speaking to yourselves"; (2) "teaching and admonishing one another"; (3) "singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord -- all indicative of the presence of THOSE who gather.

The delivery of God's truth or message is primary in the gathering of saints. Singing or reciting is one avenue or mode by which "the word of Christ" can dwell in us richly.

"Rethinking some of the traditional stances upon which my faith has been built and asking whether or not those stances are in line with truth": That is certainly your prerogative regarding the use of musical devices in the assembly. To me, if nothing else, I would question and do some serious studying of the history of the use of instrumental music in the assembly. The New Testament speaks virtually nothing about music in the assembly, much less a host of musical devices: timbrels, pipes and organs, trumpets, tabrets, cymbals, tambourines, psalteries, etc. The early church did not use them. The Roman Catholic Church initiated its use by imitating the Jews; the Protestants imitated the Catholics. And why should churches of Christ imitate the Protestants and the Catholics and the Jews?

 
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Chris
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RE: Still Questioning the "Determining Aids and Additions" Chart

June 2 2009, 4:04 PM 

Donnie,

Your bread and butter illustration does not make any sense to me in light of the point you are seeking to make. The statement that bread and butter is my food indicates that bread and butter is my food, not just bread alone. You may not be able to imagine that butter alone could be my food, but that really isnt the point; for my statement was that bread and butter is my food. The passage in question states sing and make melody in your heart, not read and sing, or even sing and play. Yet, you continually justify reading and not playing. The only thing that would make sense, in light of the point you are seeking to make, is that both be considered the same; whether as an aid or as an addition.

Regarding mans response to Gods directive, you indicated that there is no other response necessary from man than to sing. Therefore, according to your post, anything other than the response of singing on the part of man must be considered as an addition. And you, Donnie, even agree with my previous statement for you stated that when man responds to Gods directive differently, than what is stated, his response is a modified response or an addition. For these reasons, I am still convinced that your argument is inconsistent at best and should be reconsidered.

I agree that singing, even when reading words from a song book, is still singing. But, you have not convinced me that singing, even when accompanied by musical instruments, isnt still singing; even if you claim it is an entirely different activity. By the way, how does singing become something other than singing when an instrument accompanies it?

I am curious as to how you believe an individual offers worships God. Do you not hold to the traditional church of Christ teaching that one worships God through the so-called five acts of worship: singing, praying, Lords Supper, etc? You seem to indicate that there is no programming, which I am interpreting as no pattern. If this is the case, wouldnt that make you a change agent, the same that you despise? Please explain your thoughts more fully regarding programming so that I may understand your point.



 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
170.142.158.4

RE: Still Questioning the "Determining Aids and Additions" Chart

June 3 2009, 1:35 PM 

Chris,

It is apparent that you haven't understood the simple "bread and butter" illustration.

Let me simplify it further for you. Despite the conjunction "and" in the text, do you notice the linking verb "is" in: "Bread and butter is my food"? It is singular in form, isn't it? Now, your deduction is correct in that my food is neither bread alone nor butter alone. My food is "bread and butter"--a necessary combination of both bread and butter. Same is true with singing/reciting/verbalizing God's message of truth in a hymn or song -- reading from a script is an aid to singing or reciting. Reading is a necessity especially when the text is unfamiliar or when one experiences memory lapses; otherwise, the singer/reciter may end up speaking unintelligible words. Chris, please don't let the conjunction "and" cloud up your thinking ability.

Therefore, reading does not alter God's directive to speak or recite or sing God's truth. Man's response to God's directive to speak to yourselves via singing is singing.

With regard to SINGING AND PLAYING, I really don't know how else to explain that to you. Yes, there is the conjunction "and" that has really confounded your thinking. But context is conclusive that PLAYING musical devices is NOT NECESSARY or AN AID to singing/reciting/vocalizing God's message in the song. It makes it a "combo" [pun intended] when the rest of the congregants sings/recites while one or a few PLAY FOR/TO God their tambourines and psalteries and cymbals.

Did I say anything about the "five acts of worship"? NO ... NO ... No. I simply mentioned the observance to commemorate the Lord's sacrifice and death on the cross; a gathering of saints for edification, exhortation, for "speaking to yourselves," "teaching and admonishing one another" ... in songs. There are no format examples of "worship" in the New Testament other than to "worship Him in spirit and in truth." From a practical standpoint, we know that the early Christians patterned their assembly from synagogue worship which was comprised of reading God's truth from scrolls, prayer, simple singing without musical instruments and the giving of means to help the needy. Of course, the commemoration of the Lord's death was God's directive to the first century Christians, and such was the practice of the early church as recorded.

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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