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Tulsa Workshop lineup of liars about instruments

March 27 2009 at 12:10 AM
Ken Sublett  (no login)
from IP address 207.65.228.160

WATCH OUT FOR THE TULSA WORKSHOP

http://www.piney.com/TulsaWorkshop.html

The usual line up of FALSE TEACHINGS and SINGERS fill the program at the Tulsa Soulstealing Workout this year as usual.

Even those who have lied, cheated snd stolen the church houses of widows get return billing probably because the likes of Jeff Walling fills everyone with mirth by his buffoonery. Isn't it amazing that WRATH in Hebrew is marked by jesters and buffoons and wrath or ORGY in Greek identify the singers, clappers, instrument players and hand flangers as a MARK.

Ezekiel speaking by the Spirit of Christ warns about the prophesiers holding workshop and "stealing words from one another." They think that their lies can force people to remember Christ's NAME. Rots of ruck as we used to san in Japan.

 
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AuthorReply
Anonymous
(Login jackodave)
69.55.154.45

Wow

March 29 2009, 1:15 AM 

Careful Ken. A jump off the deep end like this could get yourself hurt.

Did you attend this year? If not, how might you substantiate your claims?

If the above mentioned in your post are truly sinners, have you confronted them according to scripture? If not, why not?

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
68.19.194.144

Confront the workshoppers?

March 31 2009, 12:34 AM 

QUOTED FROM AN E-MAIL: " I am troubled by the innovations, because they seem mostly to lean toward entertainment and behavior that I grew up associating with Pentecostal orgiastic "worship services." I quit going to Tulsa due to this. ..."

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
71.80.35.130

Question...

March 29 2009, 7:56 PM 

Ken, do you consider churches (any denomination whether it be Baptist, Presbyterian, Pentecostal, Nondenominational, etc.) that use musical instruments in their worship to be apostate churches and the people within them not to be authentic Jesus-loving Christians? I don't need alot of long winded explanation just a simple YES or NO will suffice.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
68.19.194.144

Re: Question...

March 31 2009, 1:41 AM 

Whether or not you are a member of the church asking the question, my answer would be as follows: NO, I do not consider the Baptist, Presbyterian, Pentecostal and other Churches to be "apostate churches" for the simple reason that they have their own separate religious organizations. [Just for clarification, I would not consider "nondenominational" as a religious organization or a church -- the word "nondenominational" simply describes or identifies only one of several of a church's attributes. Worse yet is when the intended meaning is "interdenominational."]

Apostasy is applicable only when a member abandons or rejects the religious beliefs or teachings of his own congregation or when a congregation abandons the cause of its religious organization. So, there may be apostate churches or congregations within each of those religious organizations.

Besides, the use or operation of musical devices in the assemblies of these religious organizations is NOT an issue.

So far as "the people within them not [being] authentic Jesus-loving Christians," I certainly would not question their sincerity and being Jesus-loving. The "Christian" is one who has put on (been buried with) Christ in baptism in order to receive forgiveness of sins in His blood and has risen (been resurrected) with Christ to begin newness of life.

If you are a member of the church of Christ asking the question, then, YES, a congregation that uses these inanimate, lifeless and soul-less musical machines in the assembly I would consider an apostate church [based on the above definition of "apostasy"]. The New Testament clearly emphasizes to "let the word of Christ dwell in us richly" ... "teaching and admonishing ONE ANOTHER" in songs. There is no evidence that the early Christians used musical instruments in teaching and admonishing one another in their assemblies.

 
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Ken Sublett
(no login)
67.142.130.24

The MARKS of the VIPERS.

April 4 2009, 7:04 PM 

2 Cor 11:1 WOULD to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.

Paul speaks of Eve in the sense of a BRIDE espoused but BEGUILED. Now, Eve didn't EAT an apple. Ezekiel 31 says that the Assyrians were the Tallest Trees in the garden of Eden.

2 Cor 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

2 Cor 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ
.

Simplicity is hard to find in the days of performance religion which blinds you to the Words of God:

G572 haplots hap-lot'-ace From G573 ; singleness, that is, (subjectively) sincerity (without dissimulation or self seeking), or (objectively) generosity (copious bestowal):bountifulness, liberal (-ity), simplicity, singleness.

Deceiving usually produces a sexual influence through the performing arts replacing the true Bible Teacher.

Exapataô deceive or beguile, deceive thoroughly, surround yourself with compassion for your swindling tricks, [color=red]seduce a woman, Hdt.2.114

AS A RESULT OF THIS SEDUCTION:

1 John 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning,

Disciple of Christ: that we should love one another.

Disciple of the Devil:Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brothers righteous. 1 John 3:12

G3834 panourgia pan-oorg-ee'-ah From G3835 ; adroitness, that is, (in a bad sense) trickery or sophistry:(cunning) craftiness, subtilty.

The serpent was a Musical Enchanter or enchantress.

Here is an example of what Paul meant:

Heredotus 2.CXIV. As soon as he received the intelligence, Thonis sent a message to Proteus, who was at Memphis, to this effect: "A stranger is arrived from Greece; he is by race a Teucrian, and has done a wicked deed in the country from which he is come. Having beguiled the wife of the man whose guest he was, he carried her away with him, and much treasure also. Compelled by stress of weather, he has now put in here. Are we to let him depart as he came, or shall we seize what he has brought?" Proteus replied, "Seize the man, be he who he may, that has dealt thus wickedly with his friend, and bring him before me, that I may hear what he will say for himself."

This is what happens when the Viper Race try to STEAL THE BRIDE OF CHRIST!

"They "set their lies to melodies in order to deceive the simple minded" always the LOWEST CLASS in the Classics.

In the Garden, the serpent was the.

H5175 nâchâsh naw-khawsh' From H5172 ; a snake (from its hiss):serpent.

H5172 nâchash naw-khash' A primitive root; properly to hiss, that is, whisper a (magic) spell; generally to prognosticate: X certainly, divine, enchanter, (use) X enchantment, learn by experience, X indeed, diligently observe.

H5173 nachash nakh'-ash From H5172 ; an incantation or augury:enchantment.


1) snake, serpent

2) with the ancients, the serpent was an emblem of cunning and wisdom. The serpent who deceived Eve was regarded by the Jews as the devil.

The Ancient tribes absorbed NAGA worship from Persia and India and Moses is trying to warn a people already fallen under the spell:

http://www.piney.com/naga.html

In the Greek:.G2789 the serpent is

[linked image]

In Fourth Maccabees 18, the Devil works on a sexual, seducing way and in the garden was a Musical Enchanter(ess).

4Macc 18:6 - The mother of seven sons expressed also these principles to her children:

4Macc 18:7 - "I was a pure virgin and did not go outside my father's house;
but I guarded the rib from which woman was made.

4Macc 18:8 - No seducer corrupted me on a desert plain, nor did the destroyer, the deceitful serpent, defile the purity of my virginity.


Jesus and John will call the Scribes and Pharisees Hypocrites they were called a RACE OF VIPERS. They would be baptized with a VIOLENT WIND and then OF FIRE as the chaff is burned up as worthless.

Matthew 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

They also called them a CROOKED RACE. The viper or serpent, like much of the whole Bible, points outside of itself to people who would know where to LOOK if they cared. Both the Jews and later Christians woudl be able to look to the "bible" of the pagan religions as assuredly John points to a well known series of "legends" or stories the "preachers" told them. Pointing to the beast from the sea;

Echidna (Greek: "Snake"), monster of Greek mythology, half-woman, half-serpent. Her parents were either the sea deities Phorcy. A child, Ladon (the dragon who protected the Golden Apples of the Hesperides), metaph., of a treacherous wife or friend.

This monster was involved as craftsmen of the sacrificial system: A viper came out of the blaze and "then the venom, like that of some deadly, cruel viper, began to devour him."

Remember that the TECHNE in Revelation 18 is connected to the religious speakers, singers and instrument players John called Sorcerers. The techne includes all of these religious arts and crafts including "theater building and stage managing." Sure: standing in the "holy place" claiming to lead you into the presence of God.

tektonos 3. master in any art, as in gymnastics, Pi.N.5.49; of poets, tektones sophoi (sc. epeôn) Id.P.3.113; tektones eupalamôn humnôn Cratin.70 (ap.Ar.Eq.530); tektones kômôn, i.e. the choreutai, Pi.N. 3.4; t. nôdunias, i.e. a physician, Id.P.3.6; dexias cheros ergon, dikaias tektonos a true workman, A.Ag.1406.

When the viper came out of the fire and bit Paul this is not just an event in history. Maybe we will speak of the CRAFTY HYPOCRITES which is the MARK of the Serpent.

 
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Anonymous
(Login jackodave)
69.55.154.45

Huh?

April 5 2009, 12:52 AM 

What just happened?

 
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zac
(no login)
209.136.112.131

Re: The MARKS of the VIPERS.

April 18 2009, 12:33 PM 

can anyone explain Psalm 150

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
68.19.210.178

Can anyone explain Psalm 150?

April 18 2009, 5:29 PM 

zac,

First, here's the text:


  • [1] Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.
  • [2] Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.
  • [3] Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.
  • [4] Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.
  • [5] Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.
  • [6] Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD

Now, some explanation:

It is a list of the following instruments, antiquated or not:

--- trumpet
--- psaltery
--- harp
--- timbrel
--- stringed instruments
--- organs
--- loud cymbals
--- high sounding cymbals

David was a skilled musician, a nudist and a dancer -- some of his personal achievements.

David was king of Israel who ORDAINED musical instruments. You can read about that in II Chron. 29:27. By the way, II Chron. 29 should be pretty revealing to those who are musical-device enthusiasts in that it presents a perspective of the practice that the musical instruments were used IN CONJUNCTION WITH blood sacrifices and burnt offerings. So, it is conclusive that Psalm 150 is not the only passage that lists different instruments. And so does II Chronicles 29.

Surprised that intrumentalists seem to ignore that "DANCE" is also mentioned in Psalm 150? It's right in that chapter. So, music is often associated with dancing.

Surprised that verse 6, according to Davids personal preferences, mentions that even your favorite pet(s) can "praise the Lord"? It says, "Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD."

Well, your living, breathing pet animals are exhorted by king David to "praise the Lord."

One important thing to note is that David did not have a congregation. If he did, I would have no idea which church that would be.

Does it mean that David was evil because of his love for music and musical devices? Of course, not! What would you expect from someone who is talented and musically-inclined? I'd say that my musical skills are very limited, but I have instrumental music tendencies also. Does it mean I should promote instrumental music when the New Testament saints gather for an assembly? Of course, not!

So, in discussing whether or not inanimate, lifeless, soul-less musical devices should be allowed to participate in the assembly, Psalm 150 would not pass the test.

 
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zac
(no login)
75.138.249.2

Re: Can anyone explain Psalm 150?

May 1 2009, 11:43 PM 

Are you saying that in the OT instrumental worship and dancing were okay, but since Jesus they are not? Can you show scripture to support what Jesus had to say on this issue and where is there a scripture to support that instruments were okay in the old law and not okay since Jesus restored the Church.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.157.34.41

Re: Can anyone explain Psalm 150?

May 2 2009, 1:07 AM 

Zac,

No, I'm not saying at all that instrumental worship and dancing were OK in the Old Testament. Let me explain further some of the points I brought up earlier:

(1) David was a skilled musician, a nudist and a dancer. When he listed a number of musical instruments in Psalm 150 and mentioned "praising the Lord" with the listed devices, the chapter was simply his writing. Yes, it is part of the inspired Holy Scripture, but so are other historical facts that deal with idolatrous worship, murders, theft, adulterous activities, etc., throughout the Bible. Being in Scripture does not necessarily make it a command or an instruction or a directive coming from God. To me it is obvious that that was David's own desire, not God's.

(2) It was David the king of Israel, not God in heaven, who ordained musical instruments according to II Chron. 29. Nowhere in the Old Testament and the New did God ordain musical instruments in worship to Him.

(3) In II Chron. 29, it is clear that the musical instruments were used (as ordained by David) IN CONJUNCTION WITH blood sacrifices and burnt offerings. In fact, it's recorded in that same chapter the number of different animals used in the blood sacrifices:

-- 70 bullocks
-- 100 rams
-- 200 lambs
-- 600 oxen
-- 3000 sheep

Notice the expression "in conjunction with." That's what occurred during King Hezekiah's reign in Jerusalem. (I would venture to say that during this period the use of instrumental music was an added activity to God's directive for the people to offer sacrifices.)

If the instrumental enthusiasts desire to use musical devices in their "worship" to our Father in heaven today, then, they should be willing to offer blood sacrifices and burnt offerings just as well. The argument that we are now under Christ and that it is His blood that cleanses our sins, instead of the blood of bulls and goats, is simply not a valid one.

(4) Psalm 150 mentions the word "dance." David the musician says, "Praise him with the timbrel and dance." Firstly, David did not have a congregation. And to even declare that the use of instruments listed in the chapter has any association with what should occur in the assembly or gathering of New Testament Christians is a complete nonsense. Secondly, I cannot imagine the congregants doing the "timbrel and dance" in worship to God.

So, in answer to the rest of your question, "... but since [the time of] Jesus they are not [okay anymore]," I would say that instrumental music and dance were not okay in the Old Testament, in the first place. There's no proof or evidence from the Old Testament that God ever commanded or directed His people to worship Him with musical devices.

In the New Testament, even the word "music" is mentioned only once -- that was in the story of the prodigal son. Much less expect a list in the New Testament of instruments or musical devices to be used in the assembly of the saints?

The use of man-made musical devices in worship was neither God-ordained nor God-directed even in the old law.

In the New Testament church, the saints gather purposefully to commemorate the Lord's suffering and death on the cross, to exhort one another, to let the word of Christ dwell in us richly, to teach and admonish one another -- which inanimate, lifeless, soul-less, heartless musical instruments are incapable of doing.

 
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Zac
(no login)
75.138.249.2

Re: Can anyone explain Psalm 150?

May 3 2009, 11:35 AM 

Christ's Sacrifice does cover the bulls...etc. It doesn't cover the instruments. God never specifically said anything about them but neither did he say anything about the lifeless, heartless, song books, pews, microphones, air conditioning, worship announcements, lights, clothing, jewelry, and numerous other things we use in our modern day worship. I'm not sure being silent where the bible is silent is always the best argument. I know you have an argument for this just like all the others, but here is the thing. The God I worship is truly being worshiped by me and others, and He knows that. He will not condemn me for true worship even if I do use instruments. God can be worshiped and praised in every manner of my life. True worship comes from within no matter what is going on around me on the outside. David got that. Have you never been so happy or worshipful, or moved by God that you couldn't control your emotions? Sometimes when you hit that place where you feel so close to God there is no way you can keep from dancing, clapping, singing, crying, hitting your knees, raising your hands. I am so sorry if you have never experienced this. I bet some of you are sports fans, or fans of something. When your team wins the big game, or your kid hits that home run you know you can't contain yourself. Yet when you feel close to the God who loves you, and saved you, and blesses you, you sit there like a knot on a log. Now like I said worship comes from within so If you are worshiping on the inside but somehow you can do that without letting it show because that's who you are then fine, but do not tell others that God is unhappy with them when they are joyful to be His servants.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
65.1.223.142

Psalm 150 has been explained

May 4 2009, 3:01 AM 

zac,

The "law of silence" has been misused and abused in so many ways. It's been misused for the argument that the Scripture does not say "NOT TO"; therefore, it means God's approval or authorization.

I often hear this argument: "The Bible does not say 'not to use instrumental music'; therefore, God does not prohibit its use." Well, the Bible does not say, "Thou shalt not worship 'The Virgin Mary, Mother of God,'" does it? Well, the Bible does not say, "Thou shalt not have a pope as your 'God on earth,'" does it?

The use of air conditioning, toilets, buildings, pews, kitchens, lights, etc., being EQUATED WITH the participation of instrumental music in the "teaching and admonishing one another" in songs or being EQUATED WITH the worship of "The Virgin Mary, Mother of God" or being EQUATED WITH revering the papal throne ... is a fallacious and dangerous form of an argument.

In essence, the comparison between: (a) AIDS versus (b) ADDITIONS is exactly as follows:


APPLES not = ORANGES


zac, no one is stopping you from the way you worship. You can invite a school's cheerleading squad to your worship if you feel the need to uplift your spirit with their performances. Just be aware that the cheerleaders are "external forces" even though you say that "worship comes from within." Right?

And who am I to evaluate or assess your sincerity and devotion? But then, again, who gives the directive? Is it you or another human being? Or, is it God?

 
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zac
(no login)
209.136.112.131

Re: Psalm 150 has been explained

May 9 2009, 8:03 PM 

Where do you define instruments as additions and not aids. I would call them aids. Just like a pitch pipe. The instrument helps you keep time and the key and also helps the music dynamically (or aids). Also I think worshipping mary and the pope would be covered in the OT. Something about "You shall have no other gods before me".

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
65.1.199.189

Determining "Aids" and "Additions"

May 18 2009, 3:06 AM 

Zac,

How do we determine "aids" versus "additions"? It's based on man's response to God's directive. Here are some examples:


===================================================================
[ God's Command..[ Aid or Addition?..[ Man's Response[ Conclusion ]
===================================================================
[ Baptize........[ Baptistery........[ Baptize.......[ Aid........]
-------------------------------------------------------------------
[ Meet...........[ Church building...[ Meet..........[ Aid........]
-------------------------------------------------------------------
[ Sing...........[ Song books........[ Sing..........[ Aid........]
-------------------------------------------------------------------
[ Sing...........[ Pitch pipe........[ Sing..........[ Aid........]
-------------------------------------------------------------------
[ Sing...........[ Microphone........[ Sing..........[ Aid........]
-------------------------------------------------------------------
[ Sing...........[ Song books........[ Sing..........[ Aid........]
-------------------------------------------------------------------
[ Sing...........[ Piano.............[ Play..........[ Addition...]
===================================================================


As you can tell, man's response is not to PLAY with the pitch pipe or the microphone.

Worship of "The Virgin Mary, Mother of God" is a good response to the argument: "Where does it say in Scripture, 'Thou shalt not use instrumental music in the assembly of saints'"? Indeed, where does it say in Scripture: "Thou shalt not worship the Virgin Mary"? There's none in Scripture, but we don't worship Mary. And you're correct, it's all covered in "worship our Lord God in heaven." (Same can be said about the Pope, the papapy or the papal throne.)

 
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Chris
(no login)
69.7.167.129

Questioning the "Determining Aids and Aidditions" Chart

May 18 2009, 2:05 PM 

Donnie,

I appreciate your sharing your Determining Aids and Additions chart with the rest of us here at Concerned Members. However, I do have a question regarding how it is that you determined the Mans Response part in your chart. For to be honest, at first glance, there seems to be some inconsistency as to the answers included in that column of your chart.

First, wouldnt mans response to utilizing song books be to read and sing rather than just sing? Which, according to your chart, would mean that this is not what was commanded; therefore song books should be classified as an addition not an aid.

Second, wouldnt mans response to utilizing pitch pipes be to blow and sing rather than just sing? Which, according to your chart, would mean that this is not what was commanded; therefore pitch pipes should be classified as an addition not an aid.

Third, wouldnt mans response to utilizing microphones be to wear and sing, stand in front of and sing or hold and sing? Which, again, according to your chart is not what was commanded; therefore microphones should be classified as an addition not an aid.

Could you please address the above inconsistencies included in your chart? If you do not feel that these are actual inconsistencies, please explain the difference between read and sing, blow and sing, wear, stand in front of, hold and sing and play and sing and how you determine the first three to be aids but the last one an addition.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
170.142.158.4

Re: Questioning the "Determining Aids and Aidditions" Chart

May 18 2009, 4:28 PM 

Chris,

I find it interesting that you did not bring up the other examples pertaining to the baptistery and the church building. Thanks for the question. I would respond briefly for now as follows:

I would pick on man's response to "PLAY."


  • The instruments are not in question so far as their being in the midst of an assembly alone is concerned.
  • . . . and true also as in the case of other objects (song books, pitch pipe, microphones).
  • The argument comes up when PLAYING the instruments is involved.
  • Since PLAYING the [musical] object is the point of contention, let's use the same rule for the other objects:
  • We do not PLAY with songbooks as we sing; we read the words to speak or vocalize the hymn -- which hopefully is pertinent to letting "the word of Christ dwell in us richly in songs." Of course, if we don't need the songbooks to aid us in singing, the better it is.
  • We do not PLAY with the pitch pipe as we sing. It aids to determine the tone of the first note. After that determination, the pipe no longer aids the singing.
  • The contention that the pitch pipe is another form of a musical instrument is invalid. It can be validated only if there is a pitch pipe with the prepared tone to correspond to each musical note so that there will be multiples of pitch pipes available that are capable of playing the entire hymn. That would require a lot of rehearsals to create music out of several pitch pipes. [I realize Im being facetious but hopefully the point is understood.]
  • Same principle applicable to microphones as is to the pitch pipes. We do not PLAY with the microphones, do we? Don't we know that a microphone is useful as an aid so that when God's message is delivered, it can be heard?

Again, PLAYING is the key element in all points of argumentation here. As already mentioned, we do not PLAY with microphones, songbooks or pitch pipes. If they're played with, then, they too can become additions. After all, singing is only one of the avenues of letting "the word of Christ dwell in us richly," of "teaching and admonishing one another," of "speaking to yourselves," according to Col. 3:16 and Eph. 5:19.

Frankly, we often lose sight of the fact that even singing is not the key directive stated in those passages. Rather, it is the "TEACHING and ADMONISHING ONE ANOTHER" which the musical devices are incapable of doing.

 
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Chris
(no login)
69.7.167.129

RE: Questioning the "Determining Aids and Additions" Chart

May 19 2009, 11:49 AM 

Donnie,

I appreciate your response, but you really didn't address the issue I was hoping you would.

Please explain the difference between "sing and play" and "sing and read." If your contention is that we can only do that which is authorized, and the text you are using indicates we are to "sing" and "make melody in our hearts" then the conclusion is that anything other than that is not correct, right?

Therefore, wouldn't "read and sing" be no different than "play and sing" because both are not "sing and make melody in our hearts"?

 
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Ray
(no login)
146.23.68.42

Don't lose sight of the context

May 19 2009, 2:20 PM 

Donnie, you wrote, "Frankly, we often lose sight of the fact that even singing is not the key directive stated in those passages. Rather, it is the "TEACHING and ADMONISHING ONE ANOTHER" which the musical devices are incapable of doing."

Frankly, we often lose sight of the fact that not even WORSHIP SERVICES or ASSEMBLY are the key directives stated in those passages. Rather, it is how we live our lives as imitators of Christ EVERY DAY. To rip these passages out of the context and demand that they talk only of an assembly is do violence to what God has inspired.

What IS the Biblical context? It is NOT and NEVER has been an assembly of the saints. The Biblical context has ALWAYS been how we live our lives. And how do we live our lives?
- not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed
- no obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking
- do not be partners with those who practce the above
- Have nothing to do with these fruitless deeds of darkness
- Be very careful, then, how you live
- make the most of every opportunity
- Do not get drunk on wine but be filled with the Spirit
- Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs
- Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord
- always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ
- Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ
- Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord
- Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church
- Children, obey your parents in the Lord
- Fathers, do not exasperate your children
- Fathers, bring your children up in the training and instruction of the Lord
- Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart
- masters, treat your slaves in the same way
- be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power
- Put on the full armor of God
- set your hearts on things above
- Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things
- Put to death whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed
- rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips
- Do not lie to each other
- clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience
- Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another
- Forgive as the Lord forgave you
- put on love
- Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts
- be thankful
- Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly
- and admonish one another with all wisdom
- sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God
- whatever you do, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him
- Wives, submit to your husbands
- Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them
- Children, obey your parents in everything
- Fathers, do not embitter your children
- Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything

Not ONE of these things is in refercne to an assembly. ALL of these thigns are in what we do EVERY DAY.

So if you are saying that because of just ONE or TWO of the above Biblcal instructions that playing a piano is wrong and sinful, then in respect to the context given by GOD, it MUST be wrong and sinful EVERY DAY.

Keep the context INTACT. ALL of these are instructions are for EVERY DAY.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
170.142.158.4

Re: Don't lose sight of the context

May 19 2009, 4:33 PM 

Ray,

Thanks for your input.

I'll have to disagree with you concerning the "key directive" in Col. 3:16 and Eph. 5:19. I must say it is not singing; it is not music; it is not the "worship service" [man came up with that; and look at how it has become so "programmed"]; it is not the "praise service" [man came up with that also...].

Rather, as I have said, it is about an assembly for the purpose of "speaking to yourselves" and "teaching and admonishing one another." It is about "the word of Christ" that is to "dwell in us richly." "Speaking to yourselves" clearly suggests an assembly. "Teaching and admonishing one another" clearly suggests an assembly as well.

Now, the disagreements have been about the use of musical objects or devices in the assembly of saints. That is the reason why I have responded only within the boundaries of what occurs and what's controversial when the saints gather to teach and admonish one another through singing [one of the avenues by which we can communicate] God's truth.

Regarding your other comments about me taking God's truth out of context, I must say that that has not been my intention and that I don't believe that I have done that. Having said that, yes, I agree with you that "worship" is not at all limited to the confines of a "gathering of saints." There's a lot more to that in Christian living. And this is where we agree with each other.

May I urge you to limit this discussion to that which has to do with the assembly of Christians and instrumental music is involved?

May I also urge you to initiate a separate thread that deals with personal worship in Christian living? I think you have a pretty good case for what or how individual Christians have often mismanaged their personal lives as Christians.

 
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What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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