Place your banner ad here.          See all banner ads

|| ConcernedMembers.com || About || Links Library || Help Warn Others ||
|| Madison Church of Christ || Richland Hills Church of Christ || Hillcrest Church of Christ || More Churches || Sunday School in Exile ||

Where is my NewThisWeek Email subscription?Click Here

Place your text ad here.           See all text ads

  << Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Index  

A Revelation of Things to Come: Embracing the Change Agenda

June 11 2009 at 4:49 PM
Donnie  (no login)
from IP address 170.142.158.4

A REVELATION OF THINGS TO COME


(Note: Below is a letter received from a brother who has fully embraced the change agenda. It is both informative and chilling. For those who have not yet encountered this movement, this will help you see just what we are up against. JHW)


Brother John, It is my opinion that instrumental praise is not sinful. I pray that more and more people of the Church of Christ will come to what has been an enlightened understanding for me. I was brought up in the Church of Christ denomination ( yes, TODAY the "Church of Christ" is a denomination), and I have served as a deacon (3 years) and an elder (9 years), so I know the scriptures that are used to support the position against the use of instrumental praise.

I now consider those arguments a case of faulty reasoning and misapplied scripture. It is also my opinion that a staunch stand against instrumental praise is divisive to the body of Christ and detrimental to the salvation of the lost. The unsaved, the broken, those searching for meaning in their life are not concerned about whether a praise service is a cappella or instrumental; nor should we be. By the way, add Creekside Church of Christ to the list of C o C congregations integrating instrumental praise into their schedule of congregated praise. Creekside is a 400 to 500 member congregation in Midlothian, Texas. Creekside's Sunday evening praise is referred to as Turning Point. It is a contemporary instrumental praise service.

Sir, you might be surprised if you knew how many "closet instrumentalist" that exist in the Church of Christ. The congregation that I served had three elders. We all agreed with our preacher, that instrumental praise is just as pleasing to God as non-instrumental praise. It was not implemented at New Life Church of Christ because of fear of change. I suspect that there are other congregational leaders that are of the same opinion but are fearful of change.

Finally sir, if you are still reading and haven't already deleted my correspondence, let me inform you of Creekside's Sunday morning praise. Singing is a cappella and is conducted by a praise team that includes women. One of the ladies is an exceptional soloist. Someday I hope to walk into a Church of Christ praise and worship service and witness a talented woman leading instrumental praise and hear a thought provoking lesson brought by some spiritually inspired young lady.

My brother, though I'm sure that our interpretation of various scripture differ, I still respect your understanding of scripture and your sincerity. Please afford me and others the same courtesy. May the Lord bless your effort to bring the lost to Christ.

Addressed in Love,

-Randy Hightower


______________________________________________


Dear Bro. Hightower:

Thank you for writing and sharing with me your new found faith and your hopes for the future of the Lord's church. That which you view as a new and wonderful transformation of your congregation, I view as a sad and shameful situation. It is sad because one of the Lord's congregations has departed from the narrow way that leads to life and shameful because her leaders should know better.


  • You say that is it your "opinion" and that of your fellow elders that instrumental music in worship is not sinful. It is impressive that you offer not a single scripture to justify your conclusion. I remind you that God's ways are not man's ways, nor his thoughts our thoughts (Is. 55:8-9). From Scripture we read that we are to sing an make melody with our hearts (Eph. 5:19). From Scripture we learn nothing about musical instruments in Christian worship. Historically we know that early Christians offered vocal praise without instrumental accompaniment. The use of instruments in Christian worship originated within the corrupt Roman Catholic Church of the Middle Ages.

  • You say the lost are not concerned about the use of instruments in worship. The lost know little or nothing of the will of Christ for his church. But my brother have served as an elder, you above all, should know what the Lord's expressed will is and be strong in following it. It is your duty as the mature leader who should be holding to the faithful word (Tit. 1:9) to teach those who come to salvation the Savior's will in this and all other matters.

  • You confidently say that "Church of Christ is a denomination." I do not question that your Creekside Church is indeed a denomination. But the church of which I am a member is certainly not a denominational body. We are a band of baptized believers who worship and serve Christ the head of the church in spirit and in truth. We are an autonomous body under the exclusive authority of Christ and His Word. We have no part in any denominatonal governing body. WE have no creed or written standard of faith save our confession of Jesus as God's Son and his New Testament as our guiding and governing document. Individually, we identify ourselves as Christains (I Pet. 4:16). Since Christ purchased the church with his blood (Acts 20:28); founded the church (Matt. 16:18) and is head and savior of the church (Eph. 1:22; 5:23) we like Paul speak of our congregation as a church of Christ (Rom. 16:16).

  • I find it remarkable that you have served as a deacon and elder of the Lord's church for more than ten years and yet you do not find it important to worship as He has directed. Only men who hold fast (to) the faithful word are qualified to fill the sacred office of elder (Tit. 1:9). You fail to recognize the sole authority of Christ to prescribe the faith, worship and practice of His church. That you wish to put women in the public leadership of the church is a clear example of your rejection of Christ's will that they not teach nor usurp authority over the men (I Tim. 2:11-12). Such rebellion against his authority God does not wink at. "For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft..." (I Sam. 15:23).

  • If your heart craves to worship with instruments of music and with women leading the assembly, I recommend that you seek out the nearest Christian Church or Disciples of Christ church. There you will find people of like mind with you. Their fathers, a century ago traveled the same road you are pursuing today. You will be right at home with them.

  • It is strange that you and others wish to change the faith and practice of our people, who for the last 200 years (here in American ) have followed the ancient faith and practice of the first Christians. But you charge us with causing division because we do not yield to your efforts to introduce changes based not on Scripture, but on your opinions. Can you not see that you are driving the wedge into our brotherhood?

  • In true worship, autonomous man gladly submits his will to that of Jesus (Heb. 5:9). In "will worship" (Col. 2:23), autonomous man does what he wants to do; what feels right and good to him, regardless of what the Scripture says. I neither cannot nor will not seek to force you to worship according to the revealed will of God. I do however plead with you to consider your ways (Hag. 1:7), to remember your first love (Rev. 2:4-5), to repent and return to the simple faith and worship you learned and practiced when first you tasted the good word of God and the glorious salvation of Christ (Heb. 6:4-5).

I write with prayer and hope that you will turn back to the old paths of God,

-John Waddey

 
 Respond to this message   
AuthorReply
Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
70.146.144.44

Re: A Revelation of Things to Come: Embracing the Change Agenda

June 13 2009, 8:41 AM 

The writer of the letter uses the expression "closet instrumentalist" to describe those in the Church of Christ who secretly desire IM in worship. Another "closet" expression that comes to mind is "closet gays," which describes people who secretly practice homosexuality but are afraid to "come out of the closet." So "closet instrumentalists" and "closet gays" both describe people who desire to engage covertly in two different practices, both of which are unscriptural.

It is also significant that the letter writer implies a large number of "closet instrumentalists" in the Church of Christ but makes no attempt to give any supporting statistics. Therefore, the letter writer is filled with nothing but wishful thinking.

 
 Respond to this message   
Ray
(no login)
75.53.158.4

Typical arrogance

June 15 2009, 7:20 PM 

John's opinions are "God's ways" and any opinion that Joh disagrees with are "man's ways".

Sinced neither John nor the original author are here to defend themselves, why is this even posted? Gossip? Waddey Worship?

 
 Respond to this message   
Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.32.211.108

Typical Defense of the Truth

June 18 2009, 2:38 PM 

Ray,

It's true that neither John nor the original author is here to defend, but this is posted as a lesson for learning or discussion.

Which of John's opinions, you think, do not conform to Scripture or do you find erroneous that we need to discuss?

 
 Respond to this message   
Ray
(no login)
166.205.5.175

Waddey's entire post is opinion

June 19 2009, 11:37 AM 

Waddey's entire post is his opinion only and only his interpretation of scriptures. The fact that he elevates his interpretations to equal with God's word is arrogance, and proof of Jesus' warning against blind guides. For that is what Waddey and his followers are - blind to their own arrogance. John is a slanderer and speaks neither for the Churches of Christ, nor for God.

 
 Respond to this message   
Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
65.1.223.105

Whose "opinion" is scriptural?

June 19 2009, 1:32 PM 

Ray,

I wonder of which church of Christ member you are.

The entire post is dealing with the use of musical devices in the assembly. 99.88888% of the congregations of the church of Christ does not indulge in such type of musical idolatry. And the very few congregations that use IM have either affiliated with the Christian Church or are now members of the Willow Creek Association of Community Churches.

So, John Waddey still speaks for the churches of Christ and along with the great men of the Restoration Movement -- if you even know its history.

Your task now to prove that Waddey's entire post is "opinion" is to present your own argument(s) against Waddey and according to Scripture.

And let the reader decide as to who is credible.


 
 Respond to this message   
Ray
(no login)
75.53.158.4

Johins entire message is opinion and not the Words of God

June 21 2009, 7:08 PM 

Point by point as requested by John's disciple:

1. John offers not a single scripture to justify his conclusion. His thoughts posted are only his thoughts and not God's. He quotes acripturtes, but even Satan knows to do that. They key to speaking God's Word is to do so within context and without interpretation. John does neither. His entire argument is based solely on his interpretaiton and on uninspired non-Biblical writings. I am quite familiar with Church history. It is not inspired. God's Word alone is.

2. God's Word teaches us explicity how to be hold to God's faithful word and how to teach those who come to salvation the Savior's will. John, however, has chosen to speak where the Scriptures are silent. In doing so he elevates his opinion above God's Holy Word and presumes to speak and judge where the Scriptures are silent and do not judge.


3. The "Church of Christ" is a denomination whether John says so or not. To deny it is to be blind. Does the fact that the Church of Christ is a denomination negate the fact that is is part of the Lord's Church? NO!!!

4. John may claim he does not have a written creed (except for his own blog and his own writings, and all those non-inspired writings he also follows), but he does have a creed. He follows traditions that are not found in the scriptures but are in his and other human interpretations of the scriptures. Many who he has publically denounced and judged are, like him, baptized believers who worship and serve Christ the head of the church in spirit and in truth. They, like him, are an autonomous body under the exclusive authority of Christ and His Word. John has set himself up as a denominatonal governing body as have all who decide what congregations are "sound" and what congregations are not. They have elevated themselves to such a gioverning body for they judge not based on the plain and simple Word of God but based on their interpretartions and traditions. ALL who he passes judgement on identify themselves as Christians (I Pet. 4:16). Since Christ purchased ALL of the called out with his blood (Acts 20:28) and is head and savior of ALL of the called out (Eph. 1:22; 5:23). And by the way, Paul never called any one congregation a "church of Christ" but spoke only in the plural (Rom. 16:16).


5. I find it remarkable that a man ... would behave so much like the unforgiving servant in the Gospel of Matthew (18). ALL who John denounces and passes judgement on recognize the sole authority of Christ to prescribe the faith, worship and practice of His church. When John deenounces and passes judgement on faithful members of the Lord's Church and on the saved that are accepted by God, he is rebelling against God, God's authority, and what God has accepted. "Such rebellion against his authority God does not wink at. "For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft..." (I Sam. 15:23)."


6. John seeks to drive out faithful members of the Lord's Church and create division against those whom God has accepted.

7. If John or you knew one iota of our history over the past 200 years, he would know that our practices have been constantly changing, but the faith never has. Only someone copmpletely ignorant of our history in Amerixa could make the claims John makes. But instead, John charges those with whom he disagrees with causing division because they will not yield to his opinions and efforts to force opinions not explicitily stated in Scripture on others. He and his disciples are blind to the imposition of the wedge they are driving into our brotherhood.


8. I do plead with John and his disciples to consider their ways (Hag. 1:7), to remember their first love (Rev. 2:4-5), to turn from following their own interpretations and traditions, and return to the simple faith and worship they learned and practiced when first they tasted the good word of God and the glorious salvation of Christ (Heb. 6:4-5).

I find it incredulous that anyone who supports the division and grumbling promoted by this website and by John is a true member of the Lord's Church. I do not doubt your claim that you are, but it is incredulous that members of Christ's body would behave like those who promote this website and the divisions promoted by John.


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 170.142.158.4 on Jun 23, 2009 11:01 AM


 
 Respond to this message   
Donnie Cruz
(no login)
170.142.158.4

Ray's opinion of John's message

June 24 2009, 4:46 PM 

Title: Johins entire message is opinion and not the Words of God

Title: RESPONSE: Ray's arguments are for the most part unrelated to the subject of instrumental music in the assembly -- a question originally raised by an elder of a local congregation that is being led/misled by those with going-along-with-the-winds-of-change-at-any-cost tendencies. As one can tell, Ray's point-by-point list is no more than the intent to make personal attacks against John Waddey and to deliberately pervert or rewrite the history of the Restoration Movement just like his mentors -- the change agents operating in the brotherhood.

Point by point as requested by John's disciple:

RESPONSE: Point by point attacks by a fearful Ray [last name: unknown], a follower of the Change Agents (Max Lucado, Rick Atchley, et al), the Community Church/Change Movement (Rick Warren, Bill Hybels, et al):

1. John offers not a single scripture to justify his conclusion. His thoughts posted are only his thoughts and not God's. He quotes acripturtes, but even Satan knows to do that. They key to speaking God's Word is to do so within context and without interpretation. John does neither. His entire argument is based solely on his interpretaiton and on uninspired non-Biblical writings. I am quite familiar with Church history. It is not inspired. God's Word alone is.

RESPONSE: John's message concerning instrumental music [the topic of the discussion, Ray] is scripture-based and is the same message throughout generations of the Restoration Movement and is the same message derived from the New Testament and early church history as it pertains to the use of musical devices in the assembly. The early Christians did no such musical idolatry, and it was not until the Roman Catholic Church began the use of instrumental music centuries later. No, Ray, from all indications present, you are very unfamiliar with church history. That God's Word alone is inspired is a no-brainer.

2. God's Word teaches us explicity how to be hold to God's faithful word and how to teach those who come to salvation the Savior's will. John, however, has chosen to speak where the Scriptures are silent. In doing so he elevates his opinion above God's Holy Word and presumes to speak and judge where the Scriptures are silent and do not judge.

RESPONSE: I agree with your original premise pertaining to holding to God's faithful word. The ones guilty of not being faithful to God's word are the change agents operating in the brotherhood whose main goal is to disrupt the peace in the churches of Christ, to create conflict, to restructure the church and to change God's directives for the church. Their followers, including Ray, are just as guilty of adding to God's truth or changing His teachings to accommodate culture and society.

3. The "Church of Christ" is a denomination whether John says so or not. To deny it is to be blind. Does the fact that the Church of Christ is a denomination negate the fact that is is part of the Lord's Church? NO!!!

RESPONSE: Ray, you sound like you came from a background that believed that "the church of Christ is His body and is not a denomination." That you were also taught the scriptural reasons why. As to why you changed directions is simply a problem of yours -- not John Waddey's. The Lord's body is not and has never been a denomination -- it is NOT comprised of all the hundreds and hundreds of religious bodies or "Christian" denominations" as YOU think. If there was an attempt to transform the church that belongs to Christ into a denomination, it would clearly be the intent of the change agents -- not by John Waddey nor by the great men of the Restoration Movement.

4. John may claim he does not have a written creed (except for his own blog and his own writings, and all those non-inspired writings he also follows), but he does have a creed. He follows traditions that are not found in the scriptures but are in his and other human interpretations of the scriptures. Many who he has publically denounced and judged are, like him, baptized believers who worship and serve Christ the head of the church in spirit and in truth. They, like him, are an autonomous body under the exclusive authority of Christ and His Word. John has set himself up as a denominatonal governing body as have all who decide what congregations are "sound" and what congregations are not. They have elevated themselves to such a gioverning body for they judge not based on the plain and simple Word of God but based on their interpretartions and traditions. ALL who he passes judgement on identify themselves as Christians (I Pet. 4:16). Since Christ purchased ALL of the called out with his blood (Acts 20:28) and is head and savior of ALL of the called out (Eph. 1:22; 5:23). And by the way, Paul never called any one congregation a "church of Christ" but spoke only in the plural (Rom. 16:16).

RESPONSE: All your accusations are false. You made them up. All of a sudden, the doctrine, teachings and practices of the church by past generations are now labeled as "traditions" by the change agents and their disciples, including Ray. That means that the observance of the Lord's sacrifice and death on the cross is now a "tradition," according to Ray and the change agents. The change agents and Ray are confused about the differences between: (1) man-made traditions and (2) the teachings of Christ and His apostles. John is not opposed to the truth or against the principles of the Restoration Movement. On the contrary, the change agents compromise God's truth in order to get along with their denominational neighbors. Ray is misunderstanding the fact and truth the church is the body of Christ and is comprised of individuals who have been baptized in order to become Christians -- not the church is comprised of a conglomerate of "denominations" or religious organizations. Organizations or groups do not make up the body of Christ; but INDIVIDUAL Christians do.

5. I find it remarkable that a man [. . .] would behave so much like the unforgiving servant in the Gospel of Matthew (18). ALL who John denounces and passes judgement on recognize the sole authority of Christ to prescribe the faith, worship and practice of His church. When John deenounces and passes judgement on faithful members of the Lord's Church and on the saved that are accepted by God, he is rebelling against God, God's authority, and what God has accepted. "Such rebellion against his authority God does not wink at. "For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft..." (I Sam. 15:23)."

RESPONSE: John denounces the disruptions caused by change agents in the church. John is not changing God's directives for the church. The change agents are doing that.

6. John seeks to drive out faithful members of the Lord's Church and create division against those whom God has accepted.

RESPONSE: That's a lie. It's just the opposite. The Change Movement is creating division in the church by introducing and implementing unnecessary and controversial changes that faithful members detest.

7. If John or you knew one iota of our history over the past 200 years, he would know that our practices have been constantly changing, but the faith never has. Only someone copmpletely ignorant of our history in Amerixa could make the claims John makes. But instead, John charges those with whom he disagrees with causing division because they will not yield to his opinions and efforts to force opinions not explicitily stated in Scripture on others. He and his disciples are blind to the imposition of the wedge they are driving into our brotherhood.

RESPONSE: Ray, you have the exact image of the change agents who want to RESTRUCTURE the church and REWRITE the history of the Restoration Movement. John knows the history of the church over the past 200 years. The change agents want to distort and rewrite the history.

8. I do plead with John and his disciples to consider their ways (Hag. 1:7), to remember their first love (Rev. 2:4-5), to turn from following their own interpretations and traditions, and return to the simple faith and worship they learned and practiced when first they tasted the good word of God and the glorious salvation of Christ (Heb. 6:4-5).

RESPONSE: The advice you're giving to John is exactly what you and the change agents need -- a return to "the old paths." Jeremiah is speaking to you: "[6:16] Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.


I find it incredulous that anyone who supports the division and grumbling promoted by this website and by John is a true member of the Lord's Church. I do not doubt your claim that you are, but it is incredulous that members of Christ's body would behave like those who promote this website and the divisions promoted by John.

RESPONSE: The plea of this website is to return to "the old paths." Reject the deceptions and perversions and disruptions of the change agents who are determined to compromise God's truth to satisfy culture and society. Ray, you align: (a) either with God's truth and the church that Christ established, (b) or with the Change Movement of Rick Warren and his disciples, the change agents in the church and their disciples. In reality, the question needs not be asked. We already know which side you're on.

 
 Respond to this message   
Ray
(no login)
146.23.68.42

Donnie is defending his mentor rather than God

June 25 2009, 8:27 AM 

Donnie,

I was expecting response from a follower of Christ, but instead got a response from a follower of someone else. We could have had a discusssion of God's Word and where it opposes John's Word. Instead we got your defense of John's word, a covering up of the truth, and unChristian attacks about that which you know nothing about.

You do nothing but quote from those who attack the Lord's Church, and then you have the audacity to claim that the ones you attack follow humans that they have never quoted? You edit out [. . .]. Why do you fear the truth?

Proof once again that your apostle John does not teach from the Bible but only from his interpretation of the Bible. And you and he both pass judgement not from the scriptures but from your interpretations of the scriptures.

Produce the quotation from God's Holy Word that specifically and explicitly says that instruments are 1) Sinful, or 2) Displeasing to God, or 3) Will put you in danger of Hellfire, or 4) where Jesus said anything against using them, or 5) any apostle in the NT saying anything against using them.

No interpretations, no ommission of the context, just a simple specific and explicit quotation from God's Holy Wod.

Anything less or more is simply your opinion. And we all have seen what that is worth.


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 170.142.158.4 on Jun 25, 2009 3:57 PM


 
 Respond to this message   
Donnie Cruz
(no login)
170.142.158.4

The disciples of change agents in the brotherhood

June 25 2009, 5:05 PM 

Ray,

I was expecting you to discuss specifically the subject of instrumental music in the assembly -- that an elder of a local congregation was asking John Waddey about. Instead, you made a list of accusations and attacked him personally while you're not brave enough to identify yourself except as one of the Rays. What are you afraid of, Ray ____________?

The provision for you to be able to post here is a privilege; the right to edit out personal attacks and accusations totally unrelated to the discussion of subject matters is an OBLIGATION. Remember that this a moderated forum, even though your constant negative and critical comments and misjudgments of this site have been allowed to be posted.

Now, the truth of the matter regarding the Restoration Movement -- and you must stop distorting its history -- is that John Waddey is closer to God's truth, to the principles of the restoration process, to the great men and leaders of the era THAN you and the change agents.

Another truth of the matter -- and stop ignoring this fact -- is that only around 20 of the thousands of congregations of the church of Christ worldwide use those inanimate, lifeless musical devices in their assemblies, either part of the time or all of the time. Go figure. The majority, 99.99888% of the churches, does not induldge in such type of musical idolatry. In reality, it's virtually all faithful congregations do not use IM. And how is that? It's because those very few congregations that do have either aligned themselves with the Christian Church denomination or have affiliated themselves with the WCACC (Willow Creek Association of Community Churches).

So, now, just who is attacking the Lord's church? John Waddey? Or, you and the change agents and their disciples like you? Did the early or first century New Testament church use mechanical musical objects in their assemblies? NO!!! Did Christians in the early centuries use IM? NO!!! Not until the Roman Catholic Church initiated the idolatry. Were the great men of the Restoration Movement in opposition to the use of musical objects? Of course, yes!!!

So, Ray, you are the one distorting the history of the church. You're behaving just like the change agents who desire so much to restructure the church that Christ established and so much to modify God's directives for His church. Why don't the change agents and you start your own church? From scratch? Instead of disturbing peaceful congregations?

The burden is more on you providing us with scriptures or passages that direct the New Testament church of our Lord to use musical idols in the assembly than on us providing a "thou shalt not" command. You and the change agents misuse and abuse the "law of silence" by making this ludicrous claim your guide: "Where the Bible does not say 'NOT TO,' God approves or authorizes."

That guide amounts to: "Where the Bible does not say, 'Thou shalt not worship the Virgin Mary, Mother of God,' God approves or authorizes."

With regard to the directive from God for Christians assembling together to teach and admonish one another in "psalms and hymns and spiritual songs," you already know but still reject the truth in Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16. Those passages are explicit enough for me and many other Christians. And speaking of "in context" or "out of context," where are you going to hide now that or since you want to add or include musical devices in the text? Let's see. Which of the following specific instruments would you like to add to the text? The timbrel and dance, pipes, organs, stringed instruments, trumpets, psalteries, cymbals, cornets, tabrets and all of King David's other instruments?

 
 Respond to this message   
Ray
(no login)
146.23.68.42

Just as I thought

June 26 2009, 7:14 AM 

Donnie,

You have failed to produce one quotation from God's Holy Word that specifically and explicitly says that instruments are 1) Sinful, or 2) Displeasing to God, or 3) Will put you in danger of Hellfire, or 4) where Jesus said anything against using them, or 5) any apostle in the NT saying anything against using them.

You have proven in your own answer that your are speaking here the sciptures are silent, you are passing judgement where God has not, and you are building a doctrine on your own interpretation.

John's personal attack on the elder in the church of Christ was also based on his own opinion and not on the specific and explicit word of God. His personal attacks on the many independent and autonomous congregations of the Lord's Church are based not on the specific and explicit word of God but only on his own opinion. It was John, and not I, who told an elder of a church of Christ to leave the church of Christ if that elder did not agree with John's opinion.

I believe his history is relevant because he does not show the grace shown to him.

You claim I am attacking the Lord's Church? Prove it from God's word, not from your opinion.

You claim I am ignorant of and changing Restortation Movement history? Prove it from actual facts and not your's or John's distorted and self-serving generalizations.

And finally, produce one quotation from God's Holy Word that specifically and explicitly says that you are authorized to condemn where God has not condemned, where you are authorized to speak where God is silent, where you are authorized to pass judgement where God has not, where you are authorized to call something a sin that God has not called a sin.

Let it be known to all that this website speaks opinions only and not the pure specific and explicit Word of God.

 
 Respond to this message   
Donnie Cruz
(no login)
65.1.220.122

You just thought; you did not comprehend

June 27 2009, 10:54 PM 

Ray,

I produced a couple of familiar passages [to you, I know] related to what occurs when the New Testament saints meet. The saints meet in order to teach and admonish one another "IN psalms and hymns and spiritual songs ... making melody IN your hearts to the Lord."

Where do you find "to teach and admonish one another WITH the sound of the trumpet, the timbrel and dance, the psaltery, etc., ... making melody WITH the tambourines and cymbals and organs"?

Ray, if God is silent while David, the skilled musician who ordained musical instruments, is noisy, you had better be silent, too. God did not ordain musical instruments; David the king of Israel did.

You still do not comprehend at all that virtually all of churches of Christ do not indulge in instrumental music idolatry. The few congregations that do have associated themselves with the Willow Creek Association of Community Churches. If you're brave enough to check it out, do it, Ray. Just do a Google search for that association's website.

So far as producing a "thou shalt not use musical devices in the assembly" passage, that is not going to happen because the "singing" passages are explicit enough in stating that the "teaching and admonishing ONE ANOTHER" [the KEY DIRECTIVE] is the "word of Christ" in the songs.

Ray, I know that YOU DO NOT "worship the Virgin Mary, 'Mother of God.'" Do you? One question that you must answer: "Is there an explicit command: 'Thou shalt not worship the Virgin Mary, Mother of God'?" Of course, not!!! See what I mean? That's why we do not have to look for a "thou shalt not cocaine" in order not to use it.

Go right ahead if you have the power to be taught and admonished God's truth with David-approved psalteries, cymbals and timbrels.

It is God's truth that's passing judgment on those that make assumptions -- not I nor this website.

Again, Ray, a reminder to you that this website is aligned with the mainstream or mainline congregations of the church of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is, of course, not aligned with the change agents operating in the brotherhood, the church dissidents and apostates. Why would you expect this website to be aligned with you and your cohorts?

 
 Respond to this message   
Ray
(no login)
75.53.157.105

Missing the Facts and Context

June 30 2009, 7:03 PM 

Donnie,

You do not present facts or cxontext at all. You only present your interpretations and accusations and warp them up in pretty packaging and call it "facts."

But your wrapping does not make your interpretations and accusations facts.

Do you believe your interpretations and accusations are infalliable? You write like you do.

Let's look at a few of your errors (no Donnie, you really are not infallible).

You say that you "produced a couple of familiar passages" but you err in that you claim that they apply to when the "the New Testament saints meet."

In another post to you I was able to prove from the contect that Paul's instructions to the Ephesians and the Colossians was never about what to do when "the New Testament saints meet" but was always about what to do in their everyday life. BUt you continue to ignore the scriptural and inspired contxt and believe on your own interpretations instead.

God was certaoinly NOT silent while David, the skilled musician who played the musical instruments. How can you ignore the follwing:

"He [Hezekiah] then stationed the Levites in the house of the LORD with cymbals, with harps and with lyres, according to the command of David and of Gad the king's seer, and of Nathan the prophet; for the command was from the LORD through His prophets." (2 Chronicles 29:25, NASB)

"and all the Levitical singers, Asaph, Heman, Jeduthun, and their sons and kinsmen, clothed in fine linen, with cymbals, harps and lyres, standing east of the altar, and with them one hundred and twenty priests blowing trumpets in unison when the trumpeters and the singers were to make themselves heard with one voice to praise and to glorify the LORD, and when they lifted up their voice accompanied by trumpets and cymbals and instruments of music, and when they praised the LORD, He ndeed is good for His lovingkindness is everlasting," then the house, the house of the LORD, was filled with a cloud, so that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud, for the glory of the LORD filled the house of God." (2 Chronicles 5:12-14, NASB)

The following Psalms, all inspired by Holy God, include refernces to instruments of music: 4, 5, 6, 8, 12, 33, 43, 49, 54, 55, 57, 61, 67, 68, 71, 76, 81, 84, 97, 92, 98, 108, 137, 144, 147. 149, 150.

One-third of the Psalms (plus Habakkuk) were dedicated to "the director of music," "chief musician," or "choirmaster." The job description is given by inspiration in 1 Chronicles 15: "David spoke to the chiefs of the Levites to appoint their relatives the singers, with instruments of music, harps, lyres, loud-sounding cymbals, to raise sounds of joy...So the singers, Heman, Asaph and Ethan were appointed to sound aloud cymbals of bronze; and Zechariah, Aziel, Shemiramoth, Jehiel, Unni, Eliab, Maaseiah and Benaiah, with harps tuned to alamoth; and Mattithiah, Eliphelehu, Mikneiah, Obed-edom, Jeiel and Azaziah, to lead with lyres tuned to the sheminith. Chenaniah, chief of the Levites, was in charge of the singing; he gave instruction in singing because he was skillful."

When Paul said, "sing and make music" he is quoting a phrase used in Psalm 57 - a psalm that include making music with the instrument.

Jesus, Paul, and John all make refernce to instrumental music in their teachings and it is NEVER in the negative: Twice they are used as an example, and once to descibe what is happening in Heaven. But they are NEVER condemned.

When you say God did not command instruments or desire instruments, you are either a liar or incredibly ignorant of the Word of God.

You slander several congregations of the churches of Christ by claiming, "have associated themselves with the Willow Creek Association of Community Churches." Take John Waddey's slander list and prove it from that list (I'll give you Oak Hills since they have already disassociated them selves from the churches of Christ).. All of the orthers are still congregations of the churches of Christ.

I also ask you to prove that this website is aligned with the mainstream or mainline congregations of the church of the Lord Jesus Christ. I maintain it is not - it is only aligned with the grumblers and dividers condemned in the scriptures, aligned with those who believe special knowledge is more important than the simple explicit word of God, and aligned with those who would ignore, cast away, and explain away the clear inspied teachings of Holy God.

Once again I challenge you - Produce for all to read here the specific and explicit word of God that authorizes you to call something a sin that God has not, that authorizes you to condemn where God has not condemned, that authorizes you to pass judgement where God has not passed judgement, and that authorizes you to elevate your interpretations over and above the inspired word of God.

 
 Respond to this message   
Captainc
(Login Captainc08)
75.163.152.80

To Ray....

August 7 2009, 12:31 AM 

First of all, I'm about six weeks behind this lengthy dialoge between you and brother Cruz. It's a blessing to reflect on how I was raised and taught by family members who emphasized the true and singular nature of the Church (I Pet. 2 9-10)...and how the church is not a "church of churches" with differing names that practice varying positions (acappella
and/or instrumental, infant baptism, no baptism, and perhaps other doctrines) that are held together on the single premise that we all "believe in Jesus." Sadly, at this point, some of these family members have espoused these "change agent ideas"...so it appears you have too.

To make reference to "Church of Christ" as a denomination reflects a loss of appreciation for the true church as we read about in familiar refrain throughout the NT...made up of those "added unto the Lord", the body and Bride of Christ, in locality Colosse, Corinth, Ephesus...etc.

Am assuming from the above post you also seem insistent in posturing IM as an inspired and acceptable practice in assemblies of Gods holy people today. Is hard not to reflect on the R. Atchley series (12/06) and how he makes every effort to portray instrumental forms as equally acceptable to God despite the absence of inspiration in the NT. R. Atchley's "lifting out" of passages from 2 Chronicles chaps 5, 29, & 30...(events and wording do have their appeal)..and then quickly attempting to dismiss the teaching of the Hebrew period as no longer binding is noteworthy. He then made at least one attack on a writer from the mid-20th century as "standing over the word of God"...which is what he is really doing. It just raises the deeper question of why people like R. Atchley seem to have a need to defend the "instrumentalists."

Almost enough said for now...in closing I must say that sound thinking bretheren will take to heart passages such as 2 Pet. 1:1-12 in "making your calling and election sure...in doing so you will not fall."

In Him,

Captainc

 
 Respond to this message   
Ray
(no login)
146.23.68.42

The true purpose of this site

June 26 2009, 10:36 AM 

Donnie mentions the purpose of this website. The real purpose of this website is clearly obvious and is referred to in the scriptures often, always in the negative:

"Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved...Do not grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall." (1 Corinthian 10:6, 10-12, NASB)

"for the LORD hears your grumblings which you grumble against Him. And what are we? Your grumblings are not against us but against the LORD." (Exodus 16:8, NASB)

"How long shall I bear with this evil congregation who are grumbling against Me? I have heard the complaints of the sons of Israel, which they are making against Me. Say to them, 'As I live,' says the LORD, 'just as you have spoken in My hearing, so I will surely do to you; your corpses will fall in this wilderness, even all your numbered men, according to your complete number from twenty years old and upward, who have grumbled against Me." (Numbers 14:27-30, NASB)

"Do all things without grumbling or disputing; so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain." (Philippians 2:14-16, NASB)

"Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door." (James 5:9, NASB)

"It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him." These are grumblers, finding fault, following after their own lusts; they speak arrogantly, flattering people for the sake of gaining an advantage. But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, that they were saying to you, "In the last time there will be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts." These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit." (Jude 1:14-19, NASB)

It is the grumblers that sin and cause division, not the ones who are grumbled against.

 
 Respond to this message   
Donnie Cruz
(no login)
65.1.220.122

The true desire of the Change Agents

June 27 2009, 11:14 PM 

Ray,

Thousands of peaceful congregations of the Lord's church worldwide do not need to be disturbed, infiltrated, and intruded upon by the apostles of the Community Church Movement.

I've already explained to you numerous times that the change agents are THE ONES creating conflict in their targeted congregations.

I'll have to explain again, since nothing is sinking in, that the few congregations that have succumbed to the agenda of the "left-wing conspirators" of the Change Movement are practically the Christian Church denomination's surrogates. Or, they are now members of the Willow Creek Association of Community Churches. These WERE the congregations that not only implemented instrumental music in their worship assemblies but also acquired doctrines, beliefs and practices from their denominational neighbors.

 
 Respond to this message   
Ray
(no login)
75.53.157.105

Donnie is not correct

June 28 2009, 6:15 PM 

Donnie,

I do not believe you are correct. Nearly all of the congregations of the churches of Christ that men like you, Ken, and other grumblers on this site attack are not community churches (although they do faithfully serve God and serve their community; they have not left the churches of Christ (although men such as you, John, Ken, and the grumblers have tried to divide them away from the body of Christ); and have not desire to leave the community of the churches of Christ.

So who is causing division? Those who choose to faithfully serve God and serve their fallow man, or those who meddle and personally attack independent, autonomous and faithful churches of Christ because of differences of opinion over clearly disputable matters?

Neither you, not John, nor Ken, nor any other grumbler on this website has ever answered the question: Where has God given you clear, specific, and explicit authority to call something a sin where God has not, pass judgement over a matter where God has not, or divide over a matter where God has not?

I believe the scriptures clearly, specifically, and explicitiy teach that we are not permitted to call something a sin where God has not, pass judgement over a matter where God has not, or divide over a matter where God has not.

But it seems that you, John, Ken, and the other grumblers believe that you are entitled to call something a sin where God has not, pass judgement over a matter where God has not, or divide over a matter where God has not. I'll have to ask again, since nothing is sinking in: Where do you get this authority to call something a sin where God has not, pass judgement over a matter where God has not, or divide over a matter where God has not?

 
 Respond to this message   
Donnie Cruz
(no login)
72.154.211.243

Ray, learn the facts

June 30 2009, 2:43 PM 

Ray,

The expression "nearly all of the congregations of the church of Christ" is applicable to the majority of, if not all, the thousands of churches worldwide that do not engage the participation of musical devices in the assembly of New Testament saints. I'll have to keep stating it again and again that the few churches that do -- that are aligned with you and your camp -- use instrumental music. These few churches (numbered at around 20 out of 18,000+) that use IM have become Christian Church surrogates or are associated with the Willow Creek Association of Community Churches.

How much plainer can I state that to you? Don't you comprehend anything that simple? What you want to believe is that 17,980 of 18,000 congregations worldwide use IM and are aligned with you and the Change Agents. That just isn't the case.

Ray, presenting those facts DOES NOT DIVIDE the church of the Lord Jesus Christ. Presenting those facts simply shows that those 20 congregations, at no fault of their own, had their elders succumbing to whatever societal, culture-driven methodologies and approaches to numerical church growth, as well as to their own selfish desires.

I'm just checking with you: Ray, is there anything I've stated so far that is unclear to you?

So, who is causing division? Is it the change agents operating in the brotherhood and their disciples, the elders of these FEW congregations? Or, is it the 17,980 congregations that have so far refused to yield to the temptation of doing holy entertainment in their assemblies?

It's really time to get your facts staight, Ray.

I'm glad you've admitted that the use of musical devices in the assembly is a disputable matter. One thing clear is that teaching and admonishing ONE ANOTHER IN psalms and hymns and spiritual songs is NOT DISPUTABLE.

This website has always maintained: Why indulge in CONTROVERSIAL, UNNECESSARY AND DIVISIVE matters and issues?

 
 Respond to this message   
James
(no login)
64.149.165.2

LOVE Where Did It Go?

June 30 2009, 3:44 PM 

I don't think either side here is presenting a Christ like manner. There is no love in these forums or the people that live in them. I am sure there is a big enough thorn in everyones eye that maybe we should all be worried about what we are doing and not what our brother is doing; and speaking of following the example, try and show others a LOT more love when you speak to them. Only one person was and can be perfect and it's for sure not any of us here!

 
 Respond to this message   
Donnie Cruz
(no login)
72.154.193.118

Love does not go anywhere; it's not an emotion but an action.

June 30 2009, 4:40 PM 

James,

Would you like to initiate a new thread about "LOVE"?

You see, "love" God is a command. In truth, "If ye love me, keep my commandments," the Lord says (John 14:15).

To "love" your neighbor is also a command. "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself" (Gal. 5:14; Jas. 2:8). I Thess. 1:3 speaks of "your work of faith and labor of love." We by love "serve one another" (Gal. 5:13). I John 3:18 speaks as follows -- "let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth."

James, the concern here is about the change agents who, in their efforts to restructure or transform the church that Christ established, are disturbing peaceful congregations by modifying God's directives for His church and implementing CONTROVERSIAL, UNNECESSARY AND DIVISIVE changes. Why can't they leave the church alone or start their own church(es) from scratch?

The discussion is not about "love."

The discussion is not about perfection.

The discussion is about the division caused by those who aren't satisfied with God's simple directive to "teach and admonish ONE ANOTHER in psalms and hymns and spritirual songs." God did not ordain musical instruments. David, the king of Israel, did that. II Chronicles 29:27 -- check it out.

 
 Respond to this message   
 
< Previous Page 1 2 Next >
  << Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Index  
Place your text ad here.           See all text ads

This web site is not part of or approved by any Church!

...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

Click Here......The Book is Available Now FREE

Place your banner ad here.           See all banner ads

...ConcernedMembers.com ...About ...Links Library ...Sunday School in Exile ...Help Warn Others


FastCounter by bCentral

CM Visit Counter as of 6/25/2015
2,101,394

Site Visits Since 6/30/2015
page counter