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James
(no login)
64.149.165.2

Love is the Bible

June 30 2009, 6:35 PM 

Here is the real problem with how we approach one another with law and not love. When you swing with law you hit nothing. When you swing with love you hit everything. When Jesus went to the woman at the well, he didn't come out throwing down law and commands. He layed the ground work for his speach with love. Because the greatest commandment is to LOVE one another. When your ideas of what you consider to be law harden your heart so much that love fails to be the fore front of your message than your law means nothing. I will take the Bible as a book of love over a book of laws any day! Donnie you need to soften your heart, as well as Ray. This goes both ways.

 
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James
(no login)
64.149.165.2

Also

June 30 2009, 6:40 PM 

I find it a sad state of affairs when you suggest that Love be put into a "thread" all its own. Love is the foundation for everything. You can't sideline it off into another thread. It is the thread that binds all threads!

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.32.211.171

Love is ....

June 30 2009, 9:01 PM 

James,

I couldn't disagree with you on how important love is. Truth is that "love" is the greatest command of all. However, again, love is not an issue in discussing instrumental music.

Neither is the law the issue in this discussion. As to why you'd bring up love and law in discussing a controversial issue such as the use of musical devices that David king of Israel and as a skilled musician considered of high priority in his personal life ... I don't understand.

The DISCUSSION of the use of inanimate, lifeless instruments of music in the gathering of saints -- which is for the purpose of commemorating the Lord's suffering and death on the cross and for the teaching and admonishing one another with the word of Christ -- has nothing to do with the command to love one's neighbor nor has it anything to do with the law (either the law of Moses or the law of Christ).


 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.32.211.171

Other subjects are: grace, faith, the law of Christ, baptism, etc.

June 30 2009, 9:06 PM 

James,

Again, I agree how important the command to love is.

But what does "love" have to do with the discussion of the controversial "instrumental music" in the gathering of saints?


 
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James
(no login)
64.149.165.2

Love is in everything we do.

July 1 2009, 3:19 PM 

If you have to ask how it's important than you should stop the conversation and go and read up on what love is in the Bible and why it's important to the conversation. It's about how the topic is conducted. It's about how we approach one another. You won't convince anyone about anything you believe if what you believe isn't shared in a loving way. Neither you or Ray have given much love in the conversation that I have read through. I suggest you take a step back and collect yourselves and then reapproach with the kind of LOVE Christ would have if he approached either of you. Love is important to this topic and any other topic you bring ahead in this forum. We may not always agree with what the Bible says inregards to certain theologies or cultural contexts or what constitutes a command. But any converstions held between two of God's children should be conducted in a loving and open manner.

In love,

James

 
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Donnie Cruz
(no login)
170.142.158.4

Do you mean: a friendlier and kinder conversation?

July 1 2009, 5:58 PM 

James,

The biblical definition of love, as in loving your neighbor, is that one serves his neighbor. One helps another who is poor or in need -- feeding the hungry, clothing, providing shelter, taking care of the sick, etc.

The other biblical definition of love, as in loving God, is keeping His commandments. "Why call me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things I say?" Or, "if ye love me, keep my commandments."

If you're referring to "love" as in a debate or a discussion, that's something else. Maybe, what you're trying to say is that the tone of the conversation should be friendlier and kinder?

So, to accuse me of having no "love" in terms of its biblical definition (as described above) is baseless. We're discussing/debating the issue of instrumental music. That's just the nature of the beast -- present facts, opinions and theories. Prove and disprove.

I do not think that this happens in a debate: "I love you, brother. And since I love you, I am not going to disprove any of your facts, opinions and theories. So, I will have to agree with you, brother, that your implication is correct and accurate that the majority of the congregations of the church of our Lord is in the mainstream, and therefore, they [thousands and thousands of these congregations] use instrumental music in their assemblies."

James, I really think you need to make that distinction between: (1) "loving" God and neighbor and (2) having a friendlier and kinder conversation in a discussion.

 
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Ray
(no login)
75.53.157.105

That is their nature, James

July 1 2009, 6:06 PM 

James,

I have found that asking for a new thread seems to be a way to avoid a discussion. The same thuing happened to me when I proved from the scriptures that a worship assembly was not the context of Colossians 3 and Ephesians 5. Donnie suggested I start a new thread rather than discuss the facts.

I believe Donnie and his mentors and his followers believe they are doing the right thing. But like you have pointed out, they have missed the Gospel completely. They do not promote the Gospel of Jesus here. They do not promote the teachings of the mainstream churches of Christ here. What they do promote is their interpretations of their traditions.

Now there is nothing wrong with promoting one's interpretations and traditions. Except when those interpretations and traditions are elevated to Holy doctrine, and all who disagree are condemned and asked to leave the churches of Christ. That is where this website, Ken's website, and John's website have erred. They appear to be trying to convert to a denominational way of thinking rather that convert to a risen Savior.

John the Apostle faced similar challenges when he wrote his letters. He faced a group of Christians who claimed you had to have special knowledge to be saved. He wrote his letters to combat this. His emphasis over and over was you could know you were saved, not by having a correct interpretation, or having a correct tradition, or having a special knowledge. You know you are saved by believing in the Lord Jesus as the Christ, and living your life as if Jesus really IS your Lord and Savior.

Like you, I continue to pray for their hearts to be softened by the Spirit of Jesus and by the Love of God.

May the Holy Spirit dwell in you richly as you serve God and follow Jesus.

 
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James
(no login)
64.149.165.2

Reread

July 2 2009, 3:33 PM 

I think if you go back and really read what I wrote you will see what I was trying to say. After reading your reply though, my heart aches for you. I will say a prayer for your heart.

A loving brother

James

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
70.156.13.160

Re: Do you mean: a friendlier and kinder conversation?

July 3 2009, 10:08 AM 

It would seem that in a religious debate, when people's arguments wane, they either begin to hurl insults and ad hominem attacks against their opponents, or they take on the role of the "wounded rabbit" and try to gain the audience's sympathy by making their opponents appear to be the villains. One tactic in the latter situation is to claim that the opponents have "no love." The opponent can be as diplomatic as he can yet drive home hard, sound arguments, but because he has the upper hand, the one losing the argument claims that the opponent has "no love." If the opponent will not compromise and if he shows that the teachings of the one losing are really false or unsound, the loser hollers "Foul! Why can't you show more 'love' in a debate?"

In today's postmodern society, it is politically incorrect to say that someone's beliefs or teachings are "wrong," because that may hurt their self-esteem. People are expected to "accept" and "tolerate" diversities of beliefs without challenging them, no matter how widely they differ from each other and how very, very far from the New Testament they stray.

 
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Ken Sublett
(no login)
67.142.130.31

Demon worship: Already here.

June 26 2009, 11:23 PM 

"Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved...Do not grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall." (1 Corinthian 10:6, 10-12, NASB)

In 1 Corinthians 10 and Romans 10 Paul spoke of the musical idolatry at Mount Sinai: because of this transgression God turned them over to worship the starry host." He also sentenced them to return to Babylon for captivity and death.

Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. 1 Cor. 10:7

"The triumphal hymn of Moses had unquestionably a religious character about it; but the employment of music in religious services, though idolatrous, is more distinctly marked in the festivities which attended the erection of the golden calf." (Smith's Bible Dictionary, Music, p. 589).

"We know that all of the Israelites brought Egyptian gods and practices with them and it is not far-fetched to think that Miriam, who had not yet been exposed to the Covenant, was part of the consciousness-altering rhythms and which was part of a priestly myth-play brought to destructive consummation at Mount Sinai as the golden calf was called back into action.

This "rising up to play" involved eating, drinking, nakedness and musical worship. The goddess, Hathor, is the best candidate for the Mother Goddess of the Mount Sinai idolatry. Here priestessess or prophetesses were highly trained with musical instruments, cultic songs and be able to join in the religious dance.

"Music and drugs were co-consiprators in religious ecstasy. They may have used some product of the sycamore fig which both intoxicated and induced an altered state of consciousness. The ergo of barley was well known. Anton Marks


"Rising up to Play" was playing instruments in a ritual drama and was mocking Jehovah God as they rejected Him and worshiped Apis. Elsewhere we see that this was seduction, the theme of all ancient worship with music:

"They sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play. They practiced rites in which they made themselves naked, perhaps similar to those which were carried out by naked Babylonian priests." (Woodrow, p. 158)

"In the New Testament there is nowhere any emphasis laid on the musical form of the hymns; and in particular none on instrumental accompaniment whereas this is significantly paganism." (Delling, Gerhard, Worship in the New Testament, trans. Percy Scott Phil. Westminster press, 1962, p. 86).


THE EXODUS FALL FROM GRACE BY PROFANING THE SABBATH WHICH MEANS TO "MAKE MUSIC".

Exod 32:5 And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the Lord.

Exod 32:6 And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to PLAY.


The Egyptian Opis (Apis) and others which Israel worshipped at Mount Sinal were worshipped throughout the area. "In preference to all other hymns these choirs generally sang the so-called epiphany hymns,which were intended to invite the gods to appear. Plutarch wrote:

......Why do the women of Elis call upon God in song to approach them with the bull's foot? Their song is the following:

...........Come, Dionysus, Hero,
...........into the holy temple of Elis,
........... together with the Graces
...........come violently into the temple with the bull's foot!

...........Then they sang twice at the end: "Sacred Bull!" (Johannes Quasten, Music & Worship in Pagan and Christian Antiquity, p. 76)

"For nonliterate peoples, music often serves purposes other than entertainment or aesthetic enjoyment. Certain wind instrumentare closely associated with the supernatural, and their sounds connote powerful magic. Australian Aborigines, for instance, identify the sound of a bull-roarer with thevoices of supernatural beings; for the Plains Indians, the same sound signifies an awesome natural phenomenon, such as thunder. Wind instruments are often among a group's most important ritual objects, and in some cultures they are specially venerated. The Kamairua Indians of the Amazon rain forest keep their giant flutes (three to four feet long), wherein spirits are believed to dwell, in a special shrine where they are worshiped. The flutes and drums of New Guinea are similarly housed and worshiped.

"Wind instruments in primitive cultures also serve nonreligious functions. In New Guinea, bamboo trumpets were once played

......to frighten an enemyduring battle and
...... to alert a village that the victorious warriors were coming home with the corpses of the foes.

"Conch-shell trumpets are used for signaling in the Pacific coastal regions of Columbia and in the Ecuadoran highlands.

......Trumpets also may be associated with the office of king or chief, as in West Africa,
...... where their use is strictly controlled by tribal law. "wind instrument" Encyclopædia Britannica Online.


Latin PLAY

Ludo
A.To sport, play with any thing, to practise as a pastime, amuse one's self with any thing:
......Especially, to play on an instrument of music, to make or compose music or song:

B.To sport, dally, wanton (cf. "amorous play,

Exod 32:7 And the Lord said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:

Pecco B. In partic., of sexual sin: quid inter-Est in matron


"Sex in Civilization" (Garden City Publishing Co.).

"The elaborate mystic theology of Egypt was replete with sexual symbolism; hierodular [sacred] prostitution, ritual bestiality were among the observances of its cult. The religions of Babylonia, of Asia Minor, of the far-flung Semitic colonies, were notorious for the licentiousness of their rites: their priestesses were sacred prostitutes and prostitution was incumbent upon every woman.

'Nearly all peoples, except the Egyptians and the Greeks,' says Herodotus, 'have intercourse with women in the temples.'

But the exceptions which he mentions are not borne out even by his own testimony. The religion of Greece, though obscenity and license were attenuated in its later phases, presented the same rites and the same features as those of Babylon and Syria; brothels were attached to the temples; phallic emblems, ritual obscenity, the conventionalized celebration of the sexual union remained to the last as features of its most sacred ceremonies. Even the austere and simple religion of Rome was associated in its most venerated native rites with ithyphallic images [showing the genitalia] of the gods, Fescennine [obscene] ribaldry, and symbolic coitus" (pp.31,32). This appraisal by Prof. Briffault is most accurate.

To this common description of early religious beliefs, we have the incident of Aaron bringing out the bull for the Israelites to worship when Moses remained longer on Mount Sinai than the people thought. The people were getting edgy so Aaron made a festivity for them by fashioning the golden calf and told them to worship the calf in a sexual manner (Exodus 32:25-35). God was angry with Aaron and the people for this. But the people thought that by their sexual actions they were actually worshipping God in a proper way. Their worship was to "Baal-Peor" (Hebrew: "Lord of the Opening," that is, "Lord of the Vagina") (see Psalm 106:28,29 for this identification). The rebellious Israelites were making images (and setting up pillars) in honor of this pagan deity that demanded gross sexual actions as a part of the "nature rituals" by the worshippers. This was nothing strange to the Israelites because most Gentile religious activities involved a measure of sexual activity as a part of their liturgies and rituals.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(no login)
170.142.158.4

Ray says: "That is their nature, James." Really?

July 2 2009, 4:28 PM 

Here's Ray's epistle to James:

SUBJECT: That is their nature, James (July 1 2009, 6:06 PM)

James,

I have found that asking for a new thread seems to be a way to avoid a discussion. The same thuing happened to me when I proved from the scriptures that a worship assembly was not the context of Colossians 3 and Ephesians 5. Donnie suggested I start a new thread rather than discuss the facts.

RESPONSE: No, a new thread is asked to be initiated whenever the poster, especially one who is afraid to give his last name, is attempting to deviate from the subject of the discussion.

Ray has done this quite often. Now, James has done this by accusing Donnie and even Ray [yourself] of being devoid of "love" in the ongoing discussion of this thread that PERTAINS to the subject of "instrumental music." Even this (Ray's) particular post addressed to James is a good example of the deviation from the ongoing discussion of "instrumental music."

In regard to Colossians 3 and Ephesians 5, I do not refer to or [at least not try to label it) a "worship" assembly. I refer to the context of those passages as a "gathering of saints" where the "teaching and admonishing" event occurs. The expression "ONE ANOTHER" in those passages clearly suggests a gathering or an assembly. The text "let the word of Christ dwell in you richly" clearly suggests the primary objective in the "teaching" process.

Moreover, it's the same passages that Ray, only at his convenience, uses to make an argument that since the text does not say "not to" [use musical devices in the assembly] that God approves or authorizes their use.

Why does Ray continue to look for a specific negating instruction: "Thou shalt not use instrumental music"? In essence, it's no different from asking, "Where does it state in Scripture, 'Thou shalt not worship the Virgin Mary, Mother of God'"?

Again, remember it was David, king of Israel and a skilled musician and dancer, who ORDAINED musical instruments (II Chron. 29:27). You will never find in the entire Holy Scripture that God ordained man-made musical devices.

Have you ever thought why God issued the directive to His followers to obey the 10 Commandments during the Mosaic age? Or, to offer blood and animal sacrifices, burnt offerings, etc., when He directed His followers to do so? But NOT the man-contrived directive to use man-made, man-invented musical devices?



I believe Donnie and his mentors and his followers believe they are doing the right thing. But like you have pointed out, they have missed the Gospel completely. They do not promote the Gospel of Jesus here. They do not promote the teachings of the mainstream churches of Christ here. What they do promote is their interpretations of their traditions.

RESPONSE: This is a religious discussion board with the primary objective to warn individual Christians and congregations [yet undisturbed by the change agents] to beware of "who's coming to town to transform your church."

ConcernedMembers!!! Oh, that's why it's called that. It's all about what's happening to congregations that have been or being intruded upon, interfered with, disturbed and divided by change agents so eager to restructure or transform the church, change God's directives for His church, rewrite the Restoration Movement history, make names for themselves.

Ray, not only would I ask you to create a separate thread dealing with ANOTHER subject matter of interest to you, but also would I ask you to start a website dealing with "preaching the gospel of salvation." Let me know so I can assist in spreading the good word.

In regard to promoting "the teachings of the mainstream church of Christ," that's exactly what I've been explaining to you. Virtually all of the mainstream congregations of the church of Christ DO NOT use musical instruments in their assemblies. It's been that way since the establishment of the NT church in the first century, even in the last couple of centuries. You really need to get your facts straight, Ray. You and your camp [lovers of musical instruments in the assembly] are just the opposite of the mainstream churches.

And suddenly, it's all about "interpretations of THEIR traditions"? Wow!!! Where did that expression come from? Not from the mainstream, for certain. Where then? Undeniably from the change agents!!! Because of their promotion of King David's views on instrumental music, the change agents are readily charging that the non-use of IM is only "their" [the mainstream's] "tradition." If the change agents are referring to non-use of IM as "their" tradition, well, let it be so because it is a good, scriptural and apostolic tradition that the agents are trying to DESTROY.


Now there is nothing wrong with promoting one's interpretations and traditions. Except when those interpretations and traditions are elevated to Holy doctrine, and all who disagree are condemned and asked to leave the churches of Christ. That is where this website, Ken's website, and John's website have erred. They appear to be trying to convert to a denominational way of thinking rather that convert to a risen Savior.

RESPONSE: Ray, again, you have it all just the opposite. The change agents are the ones misbehaving. They're the ones making every attempt to restructure the church that Christ established and transforming His church to a denomination. I'm sure God would not authorize the change agents to convert His church and make it into a denomination and succumb to denominational teachings, beliefs and practices. Get your facts straight, Ray.

John the Apostle faced similar challenges when he wrote his letters. He faced a group of Christians who claimed you had to have special knowledge to be saved. He wrote his letters to combat this. His emphasis over and over was you could know you were saved, not by having a correct interpretation, or having a correct tradition, or having a special knowledge. You know you are saved by believing in the Lord Jesus as the Christ, and living your life as if Jesus really IS your Lord and Savior.

RESPONSE: You're deviating from the subject matter again, Ray. If apostle John or Paul were with us in this postmodern era, either one's message would be directed to the change agents -- the real church troublemakers. Why can't change agents leave peaceful congregations alone? Why can't they start their own church(es) from scratch?

Like you, I continue to pray for their hearts to be softened by the Spirit of Jesus and by the Love of God.

May the Holy Spirit dwell in you richly as you serve God and follow Jesus.

RESPONSE: "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." Colossians 3:16.

 
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Ray
(no login)
75.53.153.145

Concerned Members misguided message

July 6 2009, 9:09 PM 

Donnie,

Where you and your website err is preaching your denominational vision rather than Jesus as the Christ. You do not even understand Restoration Movement history. You preach a message that is not from the Scriptures nor even from the early Restoration Movement teachings. Many of the 19th and early 20th century Restoration Movement leaders believed the scriptures allowed for female deacons. You call that the restructuring of change agents. While many (but not all) early Restoration Movement leaders opposed Intrumental Music, few called it a sin and even fewer advocated division. It was the later generational leaders that divided over it. Our modern arguments concerning baptism, grace, works, faith and the importance of the Lord's Supper are clearly taught in the scriptures, but not the argument against instrumental music. Your arguments are not from the scriptures but from your interpretations, and from uninspired and pagan writers.

What you call change agents are simply faithful Christians calling us take off our tradition blinders and to return to the scriptures.

I do not expect you to believe me. In your mindset that yours and John Waddey's and Ken's teachings are infallible, you will not acept anything that disagrees with your doctrine, even if what you disagree with is clearly taught in the scriptures.

You believe that your are authorized to condemn where God has not condemned, call something a sin that God has not called a sin, and pass judgement where God has not passed judgement. The scriptures never gave you that authority and several passages specifically teach against assuming such. But you rationalize and justify yourself rather than God.

Your denomination is shrinking while God's Church grows.

And I say this as a life long and faithful servant of God and faithful member of the churches of Christ.

Please turn away from trusting is your own gnosis and following misguided men such as Ken and John. Please follow and put your trust and faith in God only.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(no login)
170.142.158.4

Concerned: "The Change Agents Are Coming! The Change Agents Are Coming!"

July 7 2009, 1:02 PM 

Ray,

The change agents and their disciples and followers like you ought to stop disturbing peaceful congregations. The church of Jesus Christ continues to be NOT a denomination (as you've often suggested that it is -- shame on you!!!), and it is still an 18,000-congregation strong worldwide, still NOT indudging in musical idolatry.

I've often wondered since you started posting if you are still [if you ever were] a member of the same church comprised of that many congregations [non-instrumental music]. You seem to be afraid to really identify yourself by not revealing your last name or your church affiliation. But here you are continuing to make arguments for the use of musical devices in the assembly when the mainstream or mainline church (virtually all of its congregations) does not indulge in practices such as IM. Why can't you see and accept that truth and fact?

Your understanding of Restoration Movement history is distorted -- similar to that of the change agents. While I'm not inclined to believe that the change agents are ignorant of RM history, they have sought ways and means to isolate certain remarks made by certain RM leaders that, of course, favor their approach to controversial doctrinal matters. These remarks have been taken out of context and are being abused and misused and identified as historical facts by the agents.

I've never questioned the "faithfulness" of the change agents (and no one should question that nor the "faithfulness" of leaders of hundreds of denominations); but their motive is clear. Their determination to restructure the church that Christ established, to modify God's directives for His church and to rewrite Restoration Movement history is apparent.

The change agents' methodologies are culture-driven and truth-compromising and are exercised, applied and implemented with such subtlety -- I'm reminded of the "boiling the frog" story or analogy. They are unafraid to conform to and eventually acquire denominational dogmas -- the reason why they unashamedly label the church as just another denomination. And you did just that yourself, Ray.

How clever of the change agents to claim what the New Testament teaches about grace, baptism, faith and works, the Lord's Supper. But not instrumental music? Well, the change agents are correct in one respect, and they should be given credit for it -- the New Testament does not teach indulging in some man-contrived, man-invented musical idolatry. Looking for a "does not say 'NOT TO' use musical devices" argument in the New Testament? Good luck; you will not find it. Just as you won't find: "Thou shalt not worship the Virgin Mary, 'Mother of God.'"

Church history shows nothing that instrumental music was used in the assembly of Christians in the first century. Well, why should we rely on the use of musical devices THAT the Roman Catholic Church started some centuries later?

Don't dare to think that instrumental music is the only issue here. The change agents have already arrived at changing God's truth concerning baptism, grace, faith and works and the Lord's Supper. These doctrines are also under attack!!! (I will not elaborate on these issues at the moment as I do not want to deviate from the topic at hand. But trust me: these are ALSO outstanding issues.)

You said, "Your denomination is shrinking while God's Church grows."

I have no idea what "denomination" you're referring to. All I know is that you're calling the church that Christ established a "denomination." And you happen to have the same notion as that of the change agents in that regard.

 
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Ken Sublett
(no login)
67.142.130.14

Disciples called organ AS worship a SIN.

July 7 2009, 1:41 PM 

When the word DEACONESS was used in some churches it was called a SEWING CIRCLE. There is no such word as "deaconess" but it was used at times of female ministers we would call NUNS who were pledged to celibacy.

When the Organ and Missionary Society Party decided to add instruments in New Bern Tn (one of few in TN) the case was taken to law and the AGENTS of Standard Publishing affirmed to the Judge that "IF the organ was used AS worship it would be a SIN." They used the AID dodge but the Judge knew better. That division certainly envisioned NOTHING MORE than just the organ which was more "filler" noise kept subservient to the singing. Therefore, you can find not a single person who would defend the use of Rock and Roll instruments and CALL it worship. Not even the Catholics had "congregational singing with instrumental accompaniment." And since the COMMANDED "that which is written" was not metrical they COULD NOT have had a musical entertainment ritual. The protestants as more a political movement had to REWRITE the Psalms to make singing possible.

First, be aware that what what became The Church of Christ was never "joined" with what became the Disciples/Christian Church. While some groups were fraternally united the Millerite movement totally seduced the Disciples. That was when they formed a missionary society because THE had to save all of the Jews to make it POSSIBLE for Jesus to return in 1843. The Millennial Harbinger was started to repudiate the Millerites and Disciples movement. That was when Campbell denied that a few men shaking hands JOINED the Church of Christ to the Disciples althought Barton W. Stone boasted that they had been captured.

On the ORGAN QUESTION J.W.McGarvey who was driven out of his own church wrote.

Up to the year 1869 the churches of disciples, with possibly a few obscure exceptions had abstained from the use of instrumental music in their public worship,

......and the preachers with no publicly known exceptions were opposed to it.
...... It was opposed by some as being inexpedient, and by others as being unscriptural.

In the year 1864 I published an article in the Millennial Harbinger for November advocating the latter position, Early in the next year, A. S. Hayden, a distinguished brother in Ohio, replied, and the subject was pretty fully discussed in the Harbinger by several writers during the year 1865. All these writers held the practice to be inexpedient, but some denied that the Scriptures condemn it.

This was the beginning of the discussion of the question among us. It had been a subject of protracted dissension among Presbyterians, Baptists and Methodists for a generation previous,

......the practice gradually gaining ground,
............first in the cities,
............then in the villages,
............and finally in country congregations.

As the disciples were set for the restoration of Primitive[p. 62] Christianity
......which was universally known to be free from the practice,
......they were the last religious body in this country to think of resorting to it.

But the influence of surrounding examples gradually wrought a change in the feeling of the rank and file of the membership, and this [43] leavened the sentiments of the preachers until there grew up in city congregations a decided inclination to be like their religious neighbors.
This inclination developed into action in the city of St. Louis in the year 1869, when the congregation meeting on Olive Street, in a building purchased from the Episcopalians with a pipe organ in it, resolved to use the organ in its worship, whereupon a considerable number of prominent and influential members withdrew and held meetings elsewhere.

On instrumental music:

http://www.piney.com/MuJWMc.html

That a vast amount of evil has been occasioned by the introduction of instrumental music into Christian worship is undeniable.

Beginning with the first instance of it among us which I can remember that which caused a schism in the church in St. Louis in the year 1869 (Our Note:1851 Midway KY by a liberal over the physical objections of the elder),

......its progress has been attended by strife, alienation, and division,
...... with all their attendant evils, in hundreds of congregations.

Before this it had bred similar evils among Methodist societies and Baptist and Presbyterian churches; for all these bodies in their early days knowing that the practice originated in the Roman Catholic Church, regarded it as a Romish corruption and refused to tolerate it until it was forced upon them by the spirit of innovation which characterized the present century.

Now it is obvious that these evils, the baleful effects of which will never be fully revealed until the day of judgment,

......> must be charged either against those who have introduced the instrument
......> or against those who have opposed its introduction.

 
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Captainc
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
170.142.158.4

To Ray....

August 7 2009, 11:15 AM 

Captainc
(Login Captainc08)
75.163.152.80

To Ray.... August 7 2009, 12:31 AM


First of all, I'm about six weeks behind this lengthy dialoge between you and brother Cruz. It's a blessing to reflect on how I was raised and taught by family members who emphasized the true and singular nature of the Church (I Pet. 2 9-10)...and how the church is not a "church of churches" with differing names that practice varying positions (acappella
and/or instrumental, infant baptism, no baptism, and perhaps other doctrines) that are held together on the single premise that we all "believe in Jesus." Sadly, at this point, some of these family members have espoused these "change agent ideas"...so it appears you have too.

To make reference to "Church of Christ" as a denomination reflects a loss of appreciation for the true church as we read about in familiar refrain throughout the NT...made up of those "added unto the Lord", the body and Bride of Christ, in locality Colosse, Corinth, Ephesus...etc.

Am assuming from the above post you also seem insistent in posturing IM as an inspired and acceptable practice in assemblies of Gods holy people today. Is hard not to reflect on the R. Atchley series (12/06) and how he makes every effort to portray instrumental forms as equally acceptable to God despite the absence of inspiration in the NT. R. Atchley's "lifting out" of passages from 2 Chronicles chaps 5, 29, & 30...(events and wording do have their appeal)..and then quickly attempting to dismiss the teaching of the Hebrew period as no longer binding is noteworthy. He then made at least one attack on a writer from the mid-20th century as "standing over the word of God"...which is what he is really doing. It just raises the deeper question of why people like R. Atchley seem to have a need to defend the "instrumentalists."

Almost enough said for now...in closing I must say that sound thinking bretheren will take to heart passages such as 2 Pet. 1:1-12 in "making your calling and election sure...in doing so you will not fall."

In Him,

Captainc


 
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David
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69.180.228.167

Instrumental Music in Worship

September 16 2009, 2:22 PM 

Nowhere in the New Testament will you find ANY pattern for a "Worship Service" and yet we still bicker over "traditions' instead of practicing what James called pure and undefiled religion.

I wonder if IM ever crossed Jesus' mind as He hung on that cross paying the penalty for our sin.

Both sides of this controversy have done much to turn away unsaved people by their un-biblical bickering and it needs to stop.

 
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Anonymous
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67.142.130.29

Re: Instrumental Music in Worship

September 16 2009, 5:55 PM 

Certainly IM came across the mind of Christ: it was prophesied that the Levitical Warrior musicians abandoned to worship the starry host, would MOCK and encompass Jesus like DOGS. This points to the almost universal understanding that the DOGS were the emasculated priests of the Mother Goddess. In the Garden of Eden she/ he is called the singing and harp playing prostitue. In Revelation 17 she is called the Babylonian mother of harlots: she used "lusted after fruits" as speakers, singers and instrument players. John called them SORCERERS. Psalm 41 defines in detail the musical mocking of Messiah. Christ in Spirit through the PROPHETS marked all of the sacrificial system agandoned to worship the starry host as robbers and parasites--Just what God through Samuel PROMISED when He gave them kings in his anger.

No one prior to the recent LUSTERS to use the Sacrificial system as their PATTERNISM to use music which always meant "to make the lambs dumb before the slaughter" could even HALLUCINATE a "music" role since they grasped that ekklesia or synagogue is a school of the Bible--only. Anc Christ outlawed "vocal or instrumental rejoicing" for the Church of Christ in the Wilderness and never changed His Mind.

THOSE IMPOSING MUSIC AND MUSICIANS INTO THE FACE OF THOSE ACCUSTOMED TO GATHER IN REVERENCE AND GODLY FEAR BOAST THAT THEIR PATTERNISM IS BASED ON THE TEMPLE AND NOT THE TABERNACLE (national) and Synagogue (local)

I am surprised that so few of the Kingdom of Christ or the Church of Christ were SHAKEN when they heard the final SHAKING (musical sounds). It may be that those who have been Shellyed into believing that the "church is ONLY about worship" and have rushed to buy the New Style Song books or who have USED musical worship teams to claim the role of Mediators, include a much larger part of the kingdom which HAS been shaken and therefore REMOVED. The ELECT are identified as NOT being able to be SHAKEN.

Heb. 12:28 Therefore, receiving a kingdom that cant be shaken,
......let us have grace, through which we serve God acceptably, with reverence and awe,
Heb. 12:29 for our God is a consuming fire.

They are also MARKED by ignorance of the Nadab and Abihu pattern which makes them laugh and laugh.

One of the hate crime used by many of those being "turned over to worship the starry host" is that the Church of Christ inherited its ANTI-instrument "legalistic, sectarian, patternist hypocritic practice" of not BEGINNING to do what it had NEVER done from the Puritans who of course were influenced by John Calvin and the free thinkers opposed to a SECTOR of the Church of England.

Calvin like all historic scholars understood the difference between the TABERNACLE in one location and the SYNAGOGUE in all small gatherings and the Temple under the Monarchy whom God had "turned over to worship the starry host." All of this SECT were of Levi and Jacob had warned people NOT to attend the assemblies of the tribe of Levi.

John L. Girardeau Instrumental Music in Worship

http://www.piney.com/MuGeoGir1.html


The General Argument from Scripture

The elements of worship in the Mosaic dispensation were of two kinds:

(1.) The generic or essential.... Without here raising the question whether synagogues had an existence prior to the Babylonian exile, one would risk little in taking the ground that, during all the time of the church's development in the past,

God's people had been accustomed to meet on Sabbath days for engagement in these essential parts of divine worship. The patriarchal dispensation being left out of account, in which, however, every sentiment of piety and reverence, the original institution of the seventh day as one of rest, and the acquaintance of the Israelites with the law of the Sabbath before the promulgation of the Sinaitic law, render it highly probable that such a practice was maintained, a few reasons will be intimated in favor of its maintenance during the period of the Jewish economy:

First, The fourth commandment made the sacred observance of every Sabbath day obligatory. It is not reasonable to suppose that the law contemplated the merely individual and private keeping holy of the day.

Secondly, The Israelites, during their sojourn in the wilderness, were accustomed to worship every Sabbath day in mass at the tabernacle. It was accessible from every part of the encampment which was around it on every side. The proof of this is given in Lev. 23:3: "Six days Shall work be done: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of rest, an holy convocation."


After the musical fall from Grace the STRANGERS including Israelites NOT of the tribe of Levi would be killed if they came close to any holy things. Even though the Levites made no "musical" noise, they too would be executed if they came close to any holy part of the Tabernacle.

While people assume that people did other social things at the "church in the wilderness" the Holy Convocation part of their assembly was very restricted to instruction as was the church as ekklesia. For one thing, they did not play instruments on the Sabbath (until they were abandoned) because that would constitute WORK. The Levites polluted the Sabbath with instrumental noise because they had been abandoned by God


[linked image]

The prescriptive usage of meeting for worship on every Sabbath was thus established during their forty years' pilgrimage in: the desert. In all that time during which they held weekly assemblies, let it also be observed, they knew nothing of instrumental music. It is altogether unreasonable to suppose that this habit, ingrained into them in the early period of their national existence and consecrated by innumerable sacred and splendid associations, would have ceased to be influential after their wanderings had ceased and they had been permanently located in the land of rest.

Such an innovation upon their customs could only have occurred in consequence either of a divine command enforcing the change, or of a serious defection from their religious principles. We know that neither of these causes operated to produce the supposed revolution in their habits of worship. Upon their settlement in Canaan, they were of course dispersed in consequence of their tribal distribution throughout the length and breadth of the country from Dan to Beersheba,

......and, as the tabernacle was necessarily at any particular time confined to one spot, it was not accessible to congregations representing all Israel, except upon the occasions of the prescribed national festivals. What, then, were they doing on all the other Sabbaths of the year in their cities and towns, villages and rural neighborhoods? It cannot be supposed that on those Sabbaths they never met for worship. This consideration is mightily enhanced by the fact that only the males of Israel were enjoined to attend the great annual festivals.


Another Presbyterian, John Calvin understood that the Qahal, synagogue or church in the wilderness was for those in their own communities.

Were the women, the mothers of Israel, the trainers of children and youth, left destitute of all public worship? The supposition cannot be entertained. Provision must have been made for their engagement in the stated public worship of their God.

John L. Girardeau Instrumental Music in Worship
ARGUMENT FROM THE OLD TESTAMENT.

http://www.piney.com/MuGeoGir2.html

Moses received the mode of constructing the tabernacle and the order of its worship by divine revelation. "See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern showed to thee in the mount." It will be admitted that the instructions thus divinely given descended to the most minute detailsóthe sort of fabrics and skins to be used, and their diverse colors, the pins, the ouches and the taches, the ablutions, the vestments and the actions of the officiating priests and Levites, the ingredients of the holy ointment and the incense, the parts, the arrangements, the instruments of worship, to everything connected with the tabernacle these specific directions referred.
......Of course, if God had intended instrumental music to be employed, it would have been included in these particular directions; the instruments would have been specified for its performance, and regulations enjoined for its use.

What, now, are the facts? No directions are given respecting instruments of musid. Two instruments of sound are provided for, but they were of such a character as to make it impracticable to use them ordinarily as accompaniments of the voice in singing. The record is: "And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps." "And if ye go to war in your land against the enemy that oppresseth you, thou shalt blow an alarm with the trumpets; and ye shall be remembered before the Lord your God, and ye shall be saved from your enemies. Also in the days of your gladness, and in your solemn days, and in the beginnings of your months, ye shall blow with the trumpets over your burnt-offerings, and over the sacrifices of your peace-offerings; that they may be to you for a memorial before your God: I am the Lord your God."

The blowing of these trumpets as a signal for marching, or for going to war, had certainly nothing to do with worship, neither did the call of the congregation to assemble belong to the performance of worship, any more than a church bell now, the ringing of which ceases when the services begin.

There is nothing to show that the blowing of the trumpets, on festival days and at the beginning of months, over the offerings was accompanied by singing on the part of priests and Levites. There is no mention of that fact, and Jewish tradition opposes the supposition.

Moreover, it is almost certain that the blowing of trumpets on such occasions was a representative act performed by the priests, and that consequently it was not accompanied by the singing of the congregation. It is true that there is one recorded exception (2 Chron. 5:12, 13) which occurred, however, when the tabernacle had given way to the temple


This was when God gave David a Jebusite or pagan High Place because he was too afraid of God to go to the original Tabernacle. However, it was Solomon who moved up to Moriah and built a Temple whereas God had only promised David a Tabernacle or Tent.

At the dedication of the latter edifice, the priests blew the trumpets at the same time that the Levites sang and played upon instruments of music,

......so as "to make one sound"
......but it is evident that on that great occasion of rejoicing,
......what was aimed at was not musical harmony,
......but a powerful crash of jubilant sound.

We are shut up to the conclusion that there was nothing in the tabernacle-worship, as ordered by Moses, which could be justly characterized as instrumental music.

This absence of instrumental music from the services of the tabernacle continued not only during the wanderings of the Israelites in the desert, but after their entrance into the promised land, throughout the protracted period of the Judges, the reign of Saul, and a part of David's.


When God "gave them kings in His anger" He promised that the kings would carry out the captivity and death penalty imposed when because of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai God sentenced them to return to BEYOND BABYLON. If you conclude that God commanded the animal slaughter with exorcism noise it is the PATTERNISM for those who have been abandoned to walk in their own ways which ALWAYS lusts for idols and idolatry.

No one denied that prior to the Disciple Sectarians which split the Disciples / Christian churches by imposing instruments based on the LAW OF SILENCE. Those known as The Church of Christ were never JOINED to the Disciples at any time other than agreeing to work jointly on projects. That ended--as the Disciples confessed--when the Millerites spooked them into believing that THEY had to save all of the Jews to ENABLE the return of Jesus in 1843. The name Millenniel Harbinger intended to EXPOSE all of the various theories. After cutting off assoiation by their missionary society it turned out that the JEWS didn't want to be saved and Jesus didn't return in 1843. The Jubilee heresy was based on the same need to JOIN everyone to enable Jesus to return Y2K.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
70.156.18.22

Re: Instrumental Music in Worship

September 17 2009, 9:12 AM 

Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle" (2 Thess. 2:15 KJV).

"Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us" (2 Thess 3:6 KJV).


Christians are to keep the apostolic traditions, which include the pattern of worship. From Acts 20, 1 Cor. 10, 1 Cor. 16, Eph. 5:19, and Col 3:16, we know that the apostles' worship consisted of prayer, preaching, studying the Word of God, a collection, singing hymns, and partaking of the Lord's Supper, all of which took place on the first day of the week. None of these apostolic traditions mentioned the use of instrumental music in worship. So it should be a simple matter for faithful Christians to stay within the bounds of Scripture in all matters of worship and doctrine, the principle of which is taught in 1 Cor. 4:6.

 
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There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

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Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

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This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

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Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
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120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
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Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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