A REVELATION OF THINGS TO COME

(Note: Below is a letter received from a brother who has fully embraced the change agenda. It is both informative and chilling. For those who have not yet encountered this movement, this will help you see just what we are up against. JHW)


Brother John, It is my opinion that instrumental praise is not sinful. I pray that more and more people of the Church of Christ will come to what has been an enlightened understanding for me. I was brought up in the Church of Christ denomination ( yes, TODAY the "Church of Christ" is a denomination), and I have served as a deacon (3 years) and an elder (9 years), so I know the scriptures that are used to support the position against the use of instrumental praise.

I now consider those arguments a case of faulty reasoning and misapplied scripture. It is also my opinion that a staunch stand against instrumental praise is divisive to the body of Christ and detrimental to the salvation of the lost. The unsaved, the broken, those searching for meaning in their life are not concerned about whether a praise service is a cappella or instrumental; nor should we be. By the way, add Creekside Church of Christ to the list of C o C congregations integrating instrumental praise into their schedule of congregated praise. Creekside is a 400 to 500 member congregation in Midlothian, Texas. Creekside's Sunday evening praise is referred to as Turning Point. It is a contemporary instrumental praise service.

Sir, you might be surprised if you knew how many "closet instrumentalist" that exist in the Church of Christ. The congregation that I served had three elders. We all agreed with our preacher, that instrumental praise is just as pleasing to God as non-instrumental praise. It was not implemented at New Life Church of Christ because of fear of change. I suspect that there are other congregational leaders that are of the same opinion but are fearful of change.

Finally sir, if you are still reading and haven't already deleted my correspondence, let me inform you of Creekside's Sunday morning praise. Singing is a cappella and is conducted by a praise team that includes women. One of the ladies is an exceptional soloist. Someday I hope to walk into a Church of Christ praise and worship service and witness a talented woman leading instrumental praise and hear a thought provoking lesson brought by some spiritually inspired young lady.

My brother, though I'm sure that our interpretation of various scripture differ, I still respect your understanding of scripture and your sincerity. Please afford me and others the same courtesy. May the Lord bless your effort to bring the lost to Christ.

Addressed in Love,

-Randy Hightower

______________________________________________


Dear Bro. Hightower:

Thank you for writing and sharing with me your new found faith and your hopes for the future of the Lord's church. That which you view as a new and wonderful transformation of your congregation, I view as a sad and shameful situation. It is sad because one of the Lord's congregations has departed from the narrow way that leads to life and shameful because her leaders should know better.

• You say that is it your "opinion" and that of your fellow elders that instrumental music in worship is not sinful. It is impressive that you offer not a single scripture to justify your conclusion. I remind you that God's ways are not man's ways, nor his thoughts our thoughts (Is. 55:8-9). From Scripture we read that we are to sing an make melody with our hearts (Eph. 5:19). From Scripture we learn nothing about musical instruments in Christian worship. Historically we know that early Christians offered vocal praise without instrumental accompaniment. The use of instruments in Christian worship originated within the corrupt Roman Catholic Church of the Middle Ages.
  
  
• You say the lost are not concerned about the use of instruments in worship. The lost know little or nothing of the will of Christ for his church. But my brother have served as an elder, you above all, should know what the Lord's expressed will is and be strong in following it. It is your duty as the mature leader who should be holding to the faithful word (Tit. 1:9) to teach those who come to salvation the Savior's will in this and all other matters.
  
  
• You confidently say that "Church of Christ is a denomination." I do not question that your Creekside Church is indeed a denomination. But the church of which I am a member is certainly not a denominational body. We are a band of baptized believers who worship and serve Christ the head of the church in spirit and in truth. We are an autonomous body under the exclusive authority of Christ and His Word. We have no part in any denominatonal governing body. WE have no creed or written standard of faith save our confession of Jesus as God's Son and his New Testament as our guiding and governing document. Individually, we identify ourselves as Christains (I Pet. 4:16). Since Christ purchased the church with his blood (Acts 20:28); founded the church (Matt. 16:18) and is head and savior of the church (Eph. 1:22; 5:23) we like Paul speak of our congregation as a church of Christ (Rom. 16:16).
  
  
• I find it remarkable that you have served as a deacon and elder of the Lord's church for more than ten years and yet you do not find it important to worship as He has directed. Only men who hold fast (to) the faithful word are qualified to fill the sacred office of elder (Tit. 1:9). You fail to recognize the sole authority of Christ to prescribe the faith, worship and practice of His church. That you wish to put women in the public leadership of the church is a clear example of your rejection of Christ's will that they not teach nor usurp authority over the men (I Tim. 2:11-12). Such rebellion against his authority God does not wink at. "For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft..." (I Sam. 15:23).
  
  
• If your heart craves to worship with instruments of music and with women leading the assembly, I recommend that you seek out the nearest Christian Church or Disciples of Christ church. There you will find people of like mind with you. Their fathers, a century ago traveled the same road you are pursuing today. You will be right at home with them.
  
  
• It is strange that you and others wish to change the faith and practice of our people, who for the last 200 years (here in American ) have followed the ancient faith and practice of the first Christians. But you charge us with causing division because we do not yield to your efforts to introduce changes based not on Scripture, but on your opinions. Can you not see that you are driving the wedge into our brotherhood?
  
  
• In true worship, autonomous man gladly submits his will to that of Jesus (Heb. 5:9). In "will worship" (Col. 2:23), autonomous man does what he wants to do; what feels right and good to him, regardless of what the Scripture says. I neither cannot nor will not seek to force you to worship according to the revealed will of God. I do however plead with you to consider your ways (Hag. 1:7), to remember your first love (Rev. 2:4-5), to repent and return to the simple faith and worship you learned and practiced when first you tasted the good word of God and the glorious salvation of Christ (Heb. 6:4-5).
  
  

I write with prayer and hope that you will turn back to the old paths of God,

-John Waddey

The writer of the letter uses the expression "closet instrumentalist" to describe those in the Church of Christ who secretly desire IM in worship. Another "closet" expression that comes to mind is "closet gays," which describes people who secretly practice homosexuality but are afraid to "come out of the closet." So "closet instrumentalists" and "closet gays" both describe people who desire to engage covertly in two different practices, both of which are unscriptural.

It is also significant that the letter writer implies a large number of "closet instrumentalists" in the Church of Christ but makes no attempt to give any supporting statistics. Therefore, the letter writer is filled with nothing but wishful thinking.

John's opinions are "God's ways" and any opinion that Joh disagrees with are "man's ways".

Sinced neither John nor the original author are here to defend themselves, why is this even posted? Gossip? Waddey Worship?

Waddey's entire post is his opinion only and only his interpretation of scriptures. The fact that he elevates his interpretations to equal with God's word is arrogance, and proof of Jesus' warning against blind guides. For that is what Waddey and his followers are - blind to their own arrogance. John is a slanderer and speaks neither for the Churches of Christ, nor for God.

Ray,

I wonder of which church of Christ member you are.

The entire post is dealing with the use of musical devices in the assembly. 99.88888% of the congregations of the church of Christ does not indulge in such type of musical idolatry. And the very few congregations that use IM have either affiliated with the Christian Church or are now members of the Willow Creek Association of Community Churches.

So, John Waddey still speaks for the churches of Christ and along with the great men of the Restoration Movement -- if you even know its history.

Your task now to prove that Waddey's entire post is "opinion" is to present your own argument(s) against Waddey and according to Scripture.

And let the reader decide as to who is credible.

Point by point as requested by John's disciple:

1. John offers not a single scripture to justify his conclusion. His thoughts posted are only his thoughts and not God's. He quotes acripturtes, but even Satan knows to do that. They key to speaking God's Word is to do so within context and without interpretation. John does neither. His entire argument is based solely on his interpretaiton and on uninspired non-Biblical writings. I am quite familiar with Church history. It is not inspired. God's Word alone is.

2. God's Word teaches us explicity how to be hold to God's faithful word and how to teach those who come to salvation the Savior's will. John, however, has chosen to speak where the Scriptures are silent. In doing so he elevates his opinion above God's Holy Word and presumes to speak and judge where the Scriptures are silent and do not judge.


3. The "Church of Christ" is a denomination whether John says so or not. To deny it is to be blind. Does the fact that the Church of Christ is a denomination negate the fact that is is part of the Lord's Church? NO!!!

4. John may claim he does not have a written creed (except for his own blog and his own writings, and all those non-inspired writings he also follows), but he does have a creed. He follows traditions that are not found in the scriptures but are in his and other human interpretations of the scriptures. Many who he has publically denounced and judged are, like him, baptized believers who worship and serve Christ the head of the church in spirit and in truth. They, like him, are an autonomous body under the exclusive authority of Christ and His Word. John has set himself up as a denominatonal governing body as have all who decide what congregations are "sound" and what congregations are not. They have elevated themselves to such a gioverning body for they judge not based on the plain and simple Word of God but based on their interpretartions and traditions. ALL who he passes judgement on identify themselves as Christians (I Pet. 4:16). Since Christ purchased ALL of the called out with his blood (Acts 20:28) and is head and savior of ALL of the called out (Eph. 1:22; 5:23). And by the way, Paul never called any one congregation a "church of Christ" but spoke only in the plural (Rom. 16:16).


5. I find it remarkable that a man ... would behave so much like the unforgiving servant in the Gospel of Matthew (18). ALL who John denounces and passes judgement on recognize the sole authority of Christ to prescribe the faith, worship and practice of His church. When John deenounces and passes judgement on faithful members of the Lord's Church and on the saved that are accepted by God, he is rebelling against God, God's authority, and what God has accepted. "Such rebellion against his authority God does not wink at. "For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft..." (I Sam. 15:23)."


6. John seeks to drive out faithful members of the Lord's Church and create division against those whom God has accepted.

7. If John or you knew one iota of our history over the past 200 years, he would know that our practices have been constantly changing, but the faith never has. Only someone copmpletely ignorant of our history in Amerixa could make the claims John makes. But instead, John charges those with whom he disagrees with causing division because they will not yield to his opinions and efforts to force opinions not explicitily stated in Scripture on others. He and his disciples are blind to the imposition of the wedge they are driving into our brotherhood.


8. I do plead with John and his disciples to consider their ways (Hag. 1:7), to remember their first love (Rev. 2:4-5), to turn from following their own interpretations and traditions, and return to the simple faith and worship they learned and practiced when first they tasted the good word of God and the glorious salvation of Christ (Heb. 6:4-5).

I find it incredulous that anyone who supports the division and grumbling promoted by this website and by John is a true member of the Lord's Church. I do not doubt your claim that you are, but it is incredulous that members of Christ's body would behave like those who promote this website and the divisions promoted by John.

Title: Johins entire message is opinion and not the Words of God

Title: RESPONSE: Ray's arguments are for the most part unrelated to the subject of instrumental music in the assembly -- a question originally raised by an elder of a local congregation that is being led/misled by those with going-along-with-the-winds-of-change-at-any-cost tendencies. As one can tell, Ray's point-by-point list is no more than the intent to make personal attacks against John Waddey and to deliberately pervert or rewrite the history of the Restoration Movement just like his mentors -- the change agents operating in the brotherhood.

Point by point as requested by John's disciple:

RESPONSE: Point by point attacks by a fearful Ray [last name: unknown], a follower of the Change Agents (Max Lucado, Rick Atchley, et al), the Community Church/Change Movement (Rick Warren, Bill Hybels, et al):

1. John offers not a single scripture to justify his conclusion. His thoughts posted are only his thoughts and not God's. He quotes acripturtes, but even Satan knows to do that. They key to speaking God's Word is to do so within context and without interpretation. John does neither. His entire argument is based solely on his interpretaiton and on uninspired non-Biblical writings. I am quite familiar with Church history. It is not inspired. God's Word alone is.

RESPONSE: John's message concerning instrumental music [the topic of the discussion, Ray] is scripture-based and is the same message throughout generations of the Restoration Movement and is the same message derived from the New Testament and early church history as it pertains to the use of musical devices in the assembly. The early Christians did no such musical idolatry, and it was not until the Roman Catholic Church began the use of instrumental music centuries later. No, Ray, from all indications present, you are very unfamiliar with church history. That God's Word alone is inspired is a no-brainer.

2. God's Word teaches us explicity how to be hold to God's faithful word and how to teach those who come to salvation the Savior's will. John, however, has chosen to speak where the Scriptures are silent. In doing so he elevates his opinion above God's Holy Word and presumes to speak and judge where the Scriptures are silent and do not judge.

RESPONSE: I agree with your original premise pertaining to holding to God's faithful word. The ones guilty of not being faithful to God's word are the change agents operating in the brotherhood whose main goal is to disrupt the peace in the churches of Christ, to create conflict, to restructure the church and to change God's directives for the church. Their followers, including Ray, are just as guilty of adding to God's truth or changing His teachings to accommodate culture and society.

3. The "Church of Christ" is a denomination whether John says so or not. To deny it is to be blind. Does the fact that the Church of Christ is a denomination negate the fact that is is part of the Lord's Church? NO!!!

RESPONSE: Ray, you sound like you came from a background that believed that "the church of Christ is His body and is not a denomination." That you were also taught the scriptural reasons why. As to why you changed directions is simply a problem of yours -- not John Waddey's. The Lord's body is not and has never been a denomination -- it is NOT comprised of all the hundreds and hundreds of religious bodies or "Christian" denominations" as YOU think. If there was an attempt to transform the church that belongs to Christ into a denomination, it would clearly be the intent of the change agents -- not by John Waddey nor by the great men of the Restoration Movement.

4. John may claim he does not have a written creed (except for his own blog and his own writings, and all those non-inspired writings he also follows), but he does have a creed. He follows traditions that are not found in the scriptures but are in his and other human interpretations of the scriptures. Many who he has publically denounced and judged are, like him, baptized believers who worship and serve Christ the head of the church in spirit and in truth. They, like him, are an autonomous body under the exclusive authority of Christ and His Word. John has set himself up as a denominatonal governing body as have all who decide what congregations are "sound" and what congregations are not. They have elevated themselves to such a gioverning body for they judge not based on the plain and simple Word of God but based on their interpretartions and traditions. ALL who he passes judgement on identify themselves as Christians (I Pet. 4:16). Since Christ purchased ALL of the called out with his blood (Acts 20:28) and is head and savior of ALL of the called out (Eph. 1:22; 5:23). And by the way, Paul never called any one congregation a "church of Christ" but spoke only in the plural (Rom. 16:16).

RESPONSE: All your accusations are false. You made them up. All of a sudden, the doctrine, teachings and practices of the church by past generations are now labeled as "traditions" by the change agents and their disciples, including Ray. That means that the observance of the Lord's sacrifice and death on the cross is now a "tradition," according to Ray and the change agents. The change agents and Ray are confused about the differences between: (1) man-made traditions and (2) the teachings of Christ and His apostles. John is not opposed to the truth or against the principles of the Restoration Movement. On the contrary, the change agents compromise God's truth in order to get along with their denominational neighbors. Ray is misunderstanding the fact and truth the church is the body of Christ and is comprised of individuals who have been baptized in order to become Christians -- not the church is comprised of a conglomerate of "denominations" or religious organizations. Organizations or groups do not make up the body of Christ; but INDIVIDUAL Christians do.

5. I find it remarkable that a man [. . .] would behave so much like the unforgiving servant in the Gospel of Matthew (18). ALL who John denounces and passes judgement on recognize the sole authority of Christ to prescribe the faith, worship and practice of His church. When John deenounces and passes judgement on faithful members of the Lord's Church and on the saved that are accepted by God, he is rebelling against God, God's authority, and what God has accepted. "Such rebellion against his authority God does not wink at. "For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft..." (I Sam. 15:23)."

RESPONSE: John denounces the disruptions caused by change agents in the church. John is not changing God's directives for the church. The change agents are doing that.

6. John seeks to drive out faithful members of the Lord's Church and create division against those whom God has accepted.

RESPONSE: That's a lie. It's just the opposite. The Change Movement is creating division in the church by introducing and implementing unnecessary and controversial changes that faithful members detest.

7. If John or you knew one iota of our history over the past 200 years, he would know that our practices have been constantly changing, but the faith never has. Only someone copmpletely ignorant of our history in Amerixa could make the claims John makes. But instead, John charges those with whom he disagrees with causing division because they will not yield to his opinions and efforts to force opinions not explicitily stated in Scripture on others. He and his disciples are blind to the imposition of the wedge they are driving into our brotherhood.

RESPONSE: Ray, you have the exact image of the change agents who want to RESTRUCTURE the church and REWRITE the history of the Restoration Movement. John knows the history of the church over the past 200 years. The change agents want to distort and rewrite the history.

8. I do plead with John and his disciples to consider their ways (Hag. 1:7), to remember their first love (Rev. 2:4-5), to turn from following their own interpretations and traditions, and return to the simple faith and worship they learned and practiced when first they tasted the good word of God and the glorious salvation of Christ (Heb. 6:4-5).

RESPONSE: The advice you're giving to John is exactly what you and the change agents need -- a return to "the old paths." Jeremiah is speaking to you: "[6:16] Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.


I find it incredulous that anyone who supports the division and grumbling promoted by this website and by John is a true member of the Lord's Church. I do not doubt your claim that you are, but it is incredulous that members of Christ's body would behave like those who promote this website and the divisions promoted by John.

RESPONSE: The plea of this website is to return to "the old paths." Reject the deceptions and perversions and disruptions of the change agents who are determined to compromise God's truth to satisfy culture and society. Ray, you align: (a) either with God's truth and the church that Christ established, (b) or with the Change Movement of Rick Warren and his disciples, the change agents in the church and their disciples. In reality, the question needs not be asked. We already know which side you're on.

Donnie,

I was expecting response from a follower of Christ, but instead got a response from a follower of someone else. We could have had a discusssion of God's Word and where it opposes John's Word. Instead we got your defense of John's word, a covering up of the truth, and unChristian attacks about that which you know nothing about.

You do nothing but quote from those who attack the Lord's Church, and then you have the audacity to claim that the ones you attack follow humans that they have never quoted? You edit out [. . .]. Why do you fear the truth?

Proof once again that your apostle John does not teach from the Bible but only from his interpretation of the Bible. And you and he both pass judgement not from the scriptures but from your interpretations of the scriptures.

Produce the quotation from God's Holy Word that specifically and explicitly says that instruments are 1) Sinful, or 2) Displeasing to God, or 3) Will put you in danger of Hellfire, or 4) where Jesus said anything against using them, or 5) any apostle in the NT saying anything against using them.

No interpretations, no ommission of the context, just a simple specific and explicit quotation from God's Holy Wod.

Anything less or more is simply your opinion. And we all have seen what that is worth.

Donnie,

You have failed to produce one quotation from God's Holy Word that specifically and explicitly says that instruments are 1) Sinful, or 2) Displeasing to God, or 3) Will put you in danger of Hellfire, or 4) where Jesus said anything against using them, or 5) any apostle in the NT saying anything against using them.

You have proven in your own answer that your are speaking here the sciptures are silent, you are passing judgement where God has not, and you are building a doctrine on your own interpretation.

John's personal attack on the elder in the church of Christ was also based on his own opinion and not on the specific and explicit word of God. His personal attacks on the many independent and autonomous congregations of the Lord's Church are based not on the specific and explicit word of God but only on his own opinion. It was John, and not I, who told an elder of a church of Christ to leave the church of Christ if that elder did not agree with John's opinion.

I believe his history is relevant because he does not show the grace shown to him.

You claim I am attacking the Lord's Church? Prove it from God's word, not from your opinion.

You claim I am ignorant of and changing Restortation Movement history? Prove it from actual facts and not your's or John's distorted and self-serving generalizations.

And finally, produce one quotation from God's Holy Word that specifically and explicitly says that you are authorized to condemn where God has not condemned, where you are authorized to speak where God is silent, where you are authorized to pass judgement where God has not, where you are authorized to call something a sin that God has not called a sin.

Let it be known to all that this website speaks opinions only and not the pure specific and explicit Word of God.

Ray,

I produced a couple of familiar passages [to you, I know] related to what occurs when the New Testament saints meet. The saints meet in order to teach and admonish one another "IN psalms and hymns and spiritual songs ... making melody IN your hearts to the Lord."

Where do you find "to teach and admonish one another WITH the sound of the trumpet, the timbrel and dance, the psaltery, etc., ... making melody WITH the tambourines and cymbals and organs"?

Ray, if God is silent while David, the skilled musician who ordained musical instruments, is noisy, you had better be silent, too. God did not ordain musical instruments; David the king of Israel did.

You still do not comprehend at all that virtually all of churches of Christ do not indulge in instrumental music idolatry. The few congregations that do have associated themselves with the Willow Creek Association of Community Churches. If you're brave enough to check it out, do it, Ray. Just do a Google search for that association's website.

So far as producing a "thou shalt not use musical devices in the assembly" passage, that is not going to happen because the "singing" passages are explicit enough in stating that the "teaching and admonishing ONE ANOTHER" [the KEY DIRECTIVE] is the "word of Christ" in the songs.

Ray, I know that YOU DO NOT "worship the Virgin Mary, 'Mother of God.'" Do you? One question that you must answer: "Is there an explicit command: 'Thou shalt not worship the Virgin Mary, Mother of God'?" Of course, not!!! See what I mean? That's why we do not have to look for a "thou shalt not cocaine" in order not to use it.

Go right ahead if you have the power to be taught and admonished God's truth with David-approved psalteries, cymbals and timbrels.

It is God's truth that's passing judgment on those that make assumptions -- not I nor this website.

Again, Ray, a reminder to you that this website is aligned with the mainstream or mainline congregations of the church of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is, of course, not aligned with the change agents operating in the brotherhood, the church dissidents and apostates. Why would you expect this website to be aligned with you and your cohorts?

Donnie,

You do not present facts or cxontext at all. You only present your interpretations and accusations and warp them up in pretty packaging and call it "facts."

But your wrapping does not make your interpretations and accusations facts.

Do you believe your interpretations and accusations are infalliable? You write like you do.

Let's look at a few of your errors (no Donnie, you really are not infallible).

You say that you "produced a couple of familiar passages" but you err in that you claim that they apply to when the "the New Testament saints meet."

In another post to you I was able to prove from the contect that Paul's instructions to the Ephesians and the Colossians was never about what to do when "the New Testament saints meet" but was always about what to do in their everyday life. BUt you continue to ignore the scriptural and inspired contxt and believe on your own interpretations instead.

God was certaoinly NOT silent while David, the skilled musician who played the musical instruments. How can you ignore the follwing:

"He [Hezekiah] then stationed the Levites in the house of the LORD with cymbals, with harps and with lyres, according to the command of David and of Gad the king's seer, and of Nathan the prophet; for the command was from the LORD through His prophets." (2 Chronicles 29:25, NASB)

"and all the Levitical singers, Asaph, Heman, Jeduthun, and their sons and kinsmen, clothed in fine linen, with cymbals, harps and lyres, standing east of the altar, and with them one hundred and twenty priests blowing trumpets in unison when the trumpeters and the singers were to make themselves heard with one voice to praise and to glorify the LORD, and when they lifted up their voice accompanied by trumpets and cymbals and instruments of music, and when they praised the LORD, He ndeed is good for His lovingkindness is everlasting," then the house, the house of the LORD, was filled with a cloud, so that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud, for the glory of the LORD filled the house of God." (2 Chronicles 5:12-14, NASB)

The following Psalms, all inspired by Holy God, include refernces to instruments of music: 4, 5, 6, 8, 12, 33, 43, 49, 54, 55, 57, 61, 67, 68, 71, 76, 81, 84, 97, 92, 98, 108, 137, 144, 147. 149, 150.

One-third of the Psalms (plus Habakkuk) were dedicated to "the director of music," "chief musician," or "choirmaster." The job description is given by inspiration in 1 Chronicles 15: "David spoke to the chiefs of the Levites to appoint their relatives the singers, with instruments of music, harps, lyres, loud-sounding cymbals, to raise sounds of joy...So the singers, Heman, Asaph and Ethan were appointed to sound aloud cymbals of bronze; and Zechariah, Aziel, Shemiramoth, Jehiel, Unni, Eliab, Maaseiah and Benaiah, with harps tuned to alamoth; and Mattithiah, Eliphelehu, Mikneiah, Obed-edom, Jeiel and Azaziah, to lead with lyres tuned to the sheminith. Chenaniah, chief of the Levites, was in charge of the singing; he gave instruction in singing because he was skillful."

When Paul said, "sing and make music" he is quoting a phrase used in Psalm 57 - a psalm that include making music with the instrument.

Jesus, Paul, and John all make refernce to instrumental music in their teachings and it is NEVER in the negative: Twice they are used as an example, and once to descibe what is happening in Heaven. But they are NEVER condemned.

When you say God did not command instruments or desire instruments, you are either a liar or incredibly ignorant of the Word of God.

You slander several congregations of the churches of Christ by claiming, "have associated themselves with the Willow Creek Association of Community Churches." Take John Waddey's slander list and prove it from that list (I'll give you Oak Hills since they have already disassociated them selves from the churches of Christ).. All of the orthers are still congregations of the churches of Christ.

I also ask you to prove that this website is aligned with the mainstream or mainline congregations of the church of the Lord Jesus Christ. I maintain it is not - it is only aligned with the grumblers and dividers condemned in the scriptures, aligned with those who believe special knowledge is more important than the simple explicit word of God, and aligned with those who would ignore, cast away, and explain away the clear inspied teachings of Holy God.

Once again I challenge you - Produce for all to read here the specific and explicit word of God that authorizes you to call something a sin that God has not, that authorizes you to condemn where God has not condemned, that authorizes you to pass judgement where God has not passed judgement, and that authorizes you to elevate your interpretations over and above the inspired word of God.

First of all, I'm about six weeks behind this lengthy dialoge between you and brother Cruz. It's a blessing to reflect on how I was raised and taught by family members who emphasized the true and singular nature of the Church (I Pet. 2 9-10)...and how the church is not a "church of churches" with differing names that practice varying positions (acappella
and/or instrumental, infant baptism, no baptism, and perhaps other doctrines) that are held together on the single premise that we all "believe in Jesus." Sadly, at this point, some of these family members have espoused these "change agent ideas"...so it appears you have too.

To make reference to "Church of Christ" as a denomination reflects a loss of appreciation for the true church as we read about in familiar refrain throughout the NT...made up of those "added unto the Lord", the body and Bride of Christ, in locality Colosse, Corinth, Ephesus...etc.

Am assuming from the above post you also seem insistent in posturing IM as an inspired and acceptable practice in assemblies of Gods holy people today. Is hard not to reflect on the R. Atchley series (12/06) and how he makes every effort to portray instrumental forms as equally acceptable to God despite the absence of inspiration in the NT. R. Atchley's "lifting out" of passages from 2 Chronicles chaps 5, 29, & 30...(events and wording do have their appeal)..and then quickly attempting to dismiss the teaching of the Hebrew period as no longer binding is noteworthy. He then made at least one attack on a writer from the mid-20th century as "standing over the word of God"...which is what he is really doing. It just raises the deeper question of why people like R. Atchley seem to have a need to defend the "instrumentalists."

Almost enough said for now...in closing I must say that sound thinking bretheren will take to heart passages such as 2 Pet. 1:1-12 in "making your calling and election sure...in doing so you will not fall."

In Him,

Captainc

Donnie mentions the purpose of this website. The real purpose of this website is clearly obvious and is referred to in the scriptures often, always in the negative:

"Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved...Do not grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall." (1 Corinthian 10:6, 10-12, NASB)

"for the LORD hears your grumblings which you grumble against Him. And what are we? Your grumblings are not against us but against the LORD." (Exodus 16:8, NASB)

"How long shall I bear with this evil congregation who are grumbling against Me? I have heard the complaints of the sons of Israel, which they are making against Me. Say to them, 'As I live,' says the LORD, 'just as you have spoken in My hearing, so I will surely do to you; your corpses will fall in this wilderness, even all your numbered men, according to your complete number from twenty years old and upward, who have grumbled against Me." (Numbers 14:27-30, NASB)

"Do all things without grumbling or disputing; so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain." (Philippians 2:14-16, NASB)

"Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door." (James 5:9, NASB)

"It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him." These are grumblers, finding fault, following after their own lusts; they speak arrogantly, flattering people for the sake of gaining an advantage. But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, that they were saying to you, "In the last time there will be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts." These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit." (Jude 1:14-19, NASB)

It is the grumblers that sin and cause division, not the ones who are grumbled against.

Donnie,

I do not believe you are correct. Nearly all of the congregations of the churches of Christ that men like you, Ken, and other grumblers on this site attack are not community churches (although they do faithfully serve God and serve their community; they have not left the churches of Christ (although men such as you, John, Ken, and the grumblers have tried to divide them away from the body of Christ); and have not desire to leave the community of the churches of Christ.

So who is causing division? Those who choose to faithfully serve God and serve their fallow man, or those who meddle and personally attack independent, autonomous and faithful churches of Christ because of differences of opinion over clearly disputable matters?

Neither you, not John, nor Ken, nor any other grumbler on this website has ever answered the question: Where has God given you clear, specific, and explicit authority to call something a sin where God has not, pass judgement over a matter where God has not, or divide over a matter where God has not?

I believe the scriptures clearly, specifically, and explicitiy teach that we are not permitted to call something a sin where God has not, pass judgement over a matter where God has not, or divide over a matter where God has not.

But it seems that you, John, Ken, and the other grumblers believe that you are entitled to call something a sin where God has not, pass judgement over a matter where God has not, or divide over a matter where God has not. I'll have to ask again, since nothing is sinking in: Where do you get this authority to call something a sin where God has not, pass judgement over a matter where God has not, or divide over a matter where God has not?

Ray,

The expression "nearly all of the congregations of the church of Christ" is applicable to the majority of, if not all, the thousands of churches worldwide that do not engage the participation of musical devices in the assembly of New Testament saints. I'll have to keep stating it again and again that the few churches that do -- that are aligned with you and your camp -- use instrumental music. These few churches (numbered at around 20 out of 18,000+) that use IM have become Christian Church surrogates or are associated with the Willow Creek Association of Community Churches.

How much plainer can I state that to you? Don't you comprehend anything that simple? What you want to believe is that 17,980 of 18,000 congregations worldwide use IM and are aligned with you and the Change Agents. That just isn't the case.

Ray, presenting those facts DOES NOT DIVIDE the church of the Lord Jesus Christ. Presenting those facts simply shows that those 20 congregations, at no fault of their own, had their elders succumbing to whatever societal, culture-driven methodologies and approaches to numerical church growth, as well as to their own selfish desires.

I'm just checking with you: Ray, is there anything I've stated so far that is unclear to you?

So, who is causing division? Is it the change agents operating in the brotherhood and their disciples, the elders of these FEW congregations? Or, is it the 17,980 congregations that have so far refused to yield to the temptation of doing holy entertainment in their assemblies?

It's really time to get your facts staight, Ray.

I'm glad you've admitted that the use of musical devices in the assembly is a disputable matter. One thing clear is that teaching and admonishing ONE ANOTHER IN psalms and hymns and spiritual songs is NOT DISPUTABLE.

This website has always maintained: Why indulge in CONTROVERSIAL, UNNECESSARY AND DIVISIVE matters and issues?

I don't think either side here is presenting a Christ like manner. There is no love in these forums or the people that live in them. I am sure there is a big enough thorn in everyones eye that maybe we should all be worried about what we are doing and not what our brother is doing; and speaking of following the example, try and show others a LOT more love when you speak to them. Only one person was and can be perfect and it's for sure not any of us here!

Here is the real problem with how we approach one another with law and not love. When you swing with law you hit nothing. When you swing with love you hit everything. When Jesus went to the woman at the well, he didn't come out throwing down law and commands. He layed the ground work for his speach with love. Because the greatest commandment is to LOVE one another. When your ideas of what you consider to be law harden your heart so much that love fails to be the fore front of your message than your law means nothing. I will take the Bible as a book of love over a book of laws any day! Donnie you need to soften your heart, as well as Ray. This goes both ways.

James,

I couldn't disagree with you on how important love is. Truth is that "love" is the greatest command of all. However, again, love is not an issue in discussing instrumental music.

Neither is the law the issue in this discussion. As to why you'd bring up love and law in discussing a controversial issue such as the use of musical devices that David king of Israel and as a skilled musician considered of high priority in his personal life ... I don't understand.

The DISCUSSION of the use of inanimate, lifeless instruments of music in the gathering of saints -- which is for the purpose of commemorating the Lord's suffering and death on the cross and for the teaching and admonishing one another with the word of Christ -- has nothing to do with the command to love one's neighbor nor has it anything to do with the law (either the law of Moses or the law of Christ).

I find it a sad state of affairs when you suggest that Love be put into a "thread" all its own. Love is the foundation for everything. You can't sideline it off into another thread. It is the thread that binds all threads!

James,

Again, I agree how important the command to love is.

But what does "love" have to do with the discussion of the controversial "instrumental music" in the gathering of saints?

If you have to ask how it's important than you should stop the conversation and go and read up on what love is in the Bible and why it's important to the conversation. It's about how the topic is conducted. It's about how we approach one another. You won't convince anyone about anything you believe if what you believe isn't shared in a loving way. Neither you or Ray have given much love in the conversation that I have read through. I suggest you take a step back and collect yourselves and then reapproach with the kind of LOVE Christ would have if he approached either of you. Love is important to this topic and any other topic you bring ahead in this forum. We may not always agree with what the Bible says inregards to certain theologies or cultural contexts or what constitutes a command. But any converstions held between two of God's children should be conducted in a loving and open manner.

In love,

James

I think if you go back and really read what I wrote you will see what I was trying to say. After reading your reply though, my heart aches for you. I will say a prayer for your heart.

A loving brother

James

It would seem that in a religious debate, when people's arguments wane, they either begin to hurl insults and ad hominem attacks against their opponents, or they take on the role of the "wounded rabbit" and try to gain the audience's sympathy by making their opponents appear to be the villains. One tactic in the latter situation is to claim that the opponents have "no love." The opponent can be as diplomatic as he can yet drive home hard, sound arguments, but because he has the upper hand, the one losing the argument claims that the opponent has "no love." If the opponent will not compromise and if he shows that the teachings of the one losing are really false or unsound, the loser hollers "Foul! Why can't you show more 'love' in a debate?"

In today's postmodern society, it is politically incorrect to say that someone's beliefs or teachings are "wrong," because that may hurt their self-esteem. People are expected to "accept" and "tolerate" diversities of beliefs without challenging them, no matter how widely they differ from each other and how very, very far from the New Testament they stray.

James,

I have found that asking for a new thread seems to be a way to avoid a discussion. The same thuing happened to me when I proved from the scriptures that a worship assembly was not the context of Colossians 3 and Ephesians 5. Donnie suggested I start a new thread rather than discuss the facts.

I believe Donnie and his mentors and his followers believe they are doing the right thing. But like you have pointed out, they have missed the Gospel completely. They do not promote the Gospel of Jesus here. They do not promote the teachings of the mainstream churches of Christ here. What they do promote is their interpretations of their traditions.

Now there is nothing wrong with promoting one's interpretations and traditions. Except when those interpretations and traditions are elevated to Holy doctrine, and all who disagree are condemned and asked to leave the churches of Christ. That is where this website, Ken's website, and John's website have erred. They appear to be trying to convert to a denominational way of thinking rather that convert to a risen Savior.

John the Apostle faced similar challenges when he wrote his letters. He faced a group of Christians who claimed you had to have special knowledge to be saved. He wrote his letters to combat this. His emphasis over and over was you could know you were saved, not by having a correct interpretation, or having a correct tradition, or having a special knowledge. You know you are saved by believing in the Lord Jesus as the Christ, and living your life as if Jesus really IS your Lord and Savior.

Like you, I continue to pray for their hearts to be softened by the Spirit of Jesus and by the Love of God.

May the Holy Spirit dwell in you richly as you serve God and follow Jesus.

"Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved...Do not grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall." (1 Corinthian 10:6, 10-12, NASB)

In 1 Corinthians 10 and Romans 10 Paul spoke of the musical idolatry at Mount Sinai: because of this transgression God turned them over to worship the starry host." He also sentenced them to return to Babylon for captivity and death.

Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. 1 Cor. 10:7

"The triumphal hymn of Moses had unquestionably a religious character about it; but the employment of music in religious services, though idolatrous, is more distinctly marked in the festivities which attended the erection of the golden calf." (Smith's Bible Dictionary, Music, p. 589).

"We know that all of the Israelites brought Egyptian gods and practices with them and it is not far-fetched to think that Miriam, who had not yet been exposed to the Covenant, was part of the consciousness-altering rhythms and which was part of a priestly myth-play brought to destructive consummation at Mount Sinai as the golden calf was called back into action.

This "rising up to play" involved eating, drinking, nakedness and musical worship. The goddess, Hathor, is the best candidate for the Mother Goddess of the Mount Sinai idolatry. Here priestessess or prophetesses were highly trained with musical instruments, cultic songs and be able to join in the religious dance.

"Music and drugs were co-consiprators in religious ecstasy. They may have used some product of the sycamore fig which both intoxicated and induced an altered state of consciousness. The ergo of barley was well known. Anton Marks

"Rising up to Play" was playing instruments in a ritual drama and was mocking Jehovah God as they rejected Him and worshiped Apis. Elsewhere we see that this was seduction, the theme of all ancient worship with music:

"They sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play. They practiced rites in which they made themselves naked, perhaps similar to those which were carried out by naked Babylonian priests." (Woodrow, p. 158)

"In the New Testament there is nowhere any emphasis laid on the musical form of the hymns; and in particular none on instrumental accompaniment whereas this is significantly paganism." (Delling, Gerhard, Worship in the New Testament, trans. Percy Scott Phil. Westminster press, 1962, p. 86).

THE EXODUS FALL FROM GRACE BY PROFANING THE SABBATH WHICH MEANS TO "MAKE MUSIC".

Exod 32:5 And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the Lord.

Exod 32:6 And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to PLAY.

The Egyptian Opis (Apis) and others which Israel worshipped at Mount Sinal were worshipped throughout the area. "In preference to all other hymns these choirs generally sang the so-called epiphany hymns,which were intended to invite the gods to appear. Plutarch wrote:

......Why do the women of Elis call upon God in song to approach them with the bull's foot? Their song is the following:

...........Come, Dionysus, Hero,
...........into the holy temple of Elis,
........... together with the Graces
...........come violently into the temple with the bull's foot!

...........Then they sang twice at the end: "Sacred Bull!" (Johannes Quasten, Music & Worship in Pagan and Christian Antiquity, p. 76)

"For nonliterate peoples, music often serves purposes other than entertainment or aesthetic enjoyment. Certain wind instrumentare closely associated with the supernatural, and their sounds connote powerful magic. Australian Aborigines, for instance, identify the sound of a bull-roarer with thevoices of supernatural beings; for the Plains Indians, the same sound signifies an awesome natural phenomenon, such as thunder. Wind instruments are often among a group's most important ritual objects, and in some cultures they are specially venerated. The Kamairua Indians of the Amazon rain forest keep their giant flutes (three to four feet long), wherein spirits are believed to dwell, in a special shrine where they are worshiped. The flutes and drums of New Guinea are similarly housed and worshiped.

"Wind instruments in primitive cultures also serve nonreligious functions. In New Guinea, bamboo trumpets were once played

......to frighten an enemyduring battle and
...... to alert a village that the victorious warriors were coming home with the corpses of the foes.

"Conch-shell trumpets are used for signaling in the Pacific coastal regions of Columbia and in the Ecuadoran highlands.

......Trumpets also may be associated with the office of king or chief, as in West Africa,
...... where their use is strictly controlled by tribal law. "wind instrument" Encyclopædia Britannica Online.

Latin PLAY

Ludo
A.To sport, play with any thing, to practise as a pastime, amuse one's self with any thing:
......Especially, to play on an instrument of music, to make or compose music or song:

B.To sport, dally, wanton (cf. "amorous play,

Exod 32:7 And the Lord said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:

Pecco B. In partic., of sexual sin: quid inter-Est in matron

"Sex in Civilization" (Garden City Publishing Co.).

"The elaborate mystic theology of Egypt was replete with sexual symbolism; hierodular [sacred] prostitution, ritual bestiality were among the observances of its cult. The religions of Babylonia, of Asia Minor, of the far-flung Semitic colonies, were notorious for the licentiousness of their rites: their priestesses were sacred prostitutes and prostitution was incumbent upon every woman.

'Nearly all peoples, except the Egyptians and the Greeks,' says Herodotus, 'have intercourse with women in the temples.'

But the exceptions which he mentions are not borne out even by his own testimony. The religion of Greece, though obscenity and license were attenuated in its later phases, presented the same rites and the same features as those of Babylon and Syria; brothels were attached to the temples; phallic emblems, ritual obscenity, the conventionalized celebration of the sexual union remained to the last as features of its most sacred ceremonies. Even the austere and simple religion of Rome was associated in its most venerated native rites with ithyphallic images [showing the genitalia] of the gods, Fescennine [obscene] ribaldry, and symbolic coitus" (pp.31,32). This appraisal by Prof. Briffault is most accurate.

To this common description of early religious beliefs, we have the incident of Aaron bringing out the bull for the Israelites to worship when Moses remained longer on Mount Sinai than the people thought. The people were getting edgy so Aaron made a festivity for them by fashioning the golden calf and told them to worship the calf in a sexual manner (Exodus 32:25-35). God was angry with Aaron and the people for this. But the people thought that by their sexual actions they were actually worshipping God in a proper way. Their worship was to "Baal-Peor" (Hebrew: "Lord of the Opening," that is, "Lord of the Vagina") (see Psalm 106:28,29 for this identification). The rebellious Israelites were making images (and setting up pillars) in honor of this pagan deity that demanded gross sexual actions as a part of the "nature rituals" by the worshippers. This was nothing strange to the Israelites because most Gentile religious activities involved a measure of sexual activity as a part of their liturgies and rituals.

Here's Ray's epistle to James:

SUBJECT: That is their nature, James (July 1 2009, 6:06 PM)

James,

I have found that asking for a new thread seems to be a way to avoid a discussion. The same thuing happened to me when I proved from the scriptures that a worship assembly was not the context of Colossians 3 and Ephesians 5. Donnie suggested I start a new thread rather than discuss the facts.

RESPONSE: No, a new thread is asked to be initiated whenever the poster, especially one who is afraid to give his last name, is attempting to deviate from the subject of the discussion.

Ray has done this quite often. Now, James has done this by accusing Donnie and even Ray [yourself] of being devoid of "love" in the ongoing discussion of this thread that PERTAINS to the subject of "instrumental music." Even this (Ray's) particular post addressed to James is a good example of the deviation from the ongoing discussion of "instrumental music."

In regard to Colossians 3 and Ephesians 5, I do not refer to or [at least not try to label it) a "worship" assembly. I refer to the context of those passages as a "gathering of saints" where the "teaching and admonishing" event occurs. The expression "ONE ANOTHER" in those passages clearly suggests a gathering or an assembly. The text "let the word of Christ dwell in you richly" clearly suggests the primary objective in the "teaching" process.

Moreover, it's the same passages that Ray, only at his convenience, uses to make an argument that since the text does not say "not to" [use musical devices in the assembly] that God approves or authorizes their use.

Why does Ray continue to look for a specific negating instruction: "Thou shalt not use instrumental music"? In essence, it's no different from asking, "Where does it state in Scripture, 'Thou shalt not worship the Virgin Mary, Mother of God'"?

Again, remember it was David, king of Israel and a skilled musician and dancer, who ORDAINED musical instruments (II Chron. 29:27). You will never find in the entire Holy Scripture that God ordained man-made musical devices.

Have you ever thought why God issued the directive to His followers to obey the 10 Commandments during the Mosaic age? Or, to offer blood and animal sacrifices, burnt offerings, etc., when He directed His followers to do so? But NOT the man-contrived directive to use man-made, man-invented musical devices?


I believe Donnie and his mentors and his followers believe they are doing the right thing. But like you have pointed out, they have missed the Gospel completely. They do not promote the Gospel of Jesus here. They do not promote the teachings of the mainstream churches of Christ here. What they do promote is their interpretations of their traditions.

RESPONSE: This is a religious discussion board with the primary objective to warn individual Christians and congregations [yet undisturbed by the change agents] to beware of "who's coming to town to transform your church."

ConcernedMembers!!! Oh, that's why it's called that. It's all about what's happening to congregations that have been or being intruded upon, interfered with, disturbed and divided by change agents so eager to restructure or transform the church, change God's directives for His church, rewrite the Restoration Movement history, make names for themselves.

Ray, not only would I ask you to create a separate thread dealing with ANOTHER subject matter of interest to you, but also would I ask you to start a website dealing with "preaching the gospel of salvation." Let me know so I can assist in spreading the good word.

In regard to promoting "the teachings of the mainstream church of Christ," that's exactly what I've been explaining to you. Virtually all of the mainstream congregations of the church of Christ DO NOT use musical instruments in their assemblies. It's been that way since the establishment of the NT church in the first century, even in the last couple of centuries. You really need to get your facts straight, Ray. You and your camp [lovers of musical instruments in the assembly] are just the opposite of the mainstream churches.

And suddenly, it's all about "interpretations of THEIR traditions"? Wow!!! Where did that expression come from? Not from the mainstream, for certain. Where then? Undeniably from the change agents!!! Because of their promotion of King David's views on instrumental music, the change agents are readily charging that the non-use of IM is only "their" [the mainstream's] "tradition." If the change agents are referring to non-use of IM as "their" tradition, well, let it be so because it is a good, scriptural and apostolic tradition that the agents are trying to DESTROY.

Now there is nothing wrong with promoting one's interpretations and traditions. Except when those interpretations and traditions are elevated to Holy doctrine, and all who disagree are condemned and asked to leave the churches of Christ. That is where this website, Ken's website, and John's website have erred. They appear to be trying to convert to a denominational way of thinking rather that convert to a risen Savior.

RESPONSE: Ray, again, you have it all just the opposite. The change agents are the ones misbehaving. They're the ones making every attempt to restructure the church that Christ established and transforming His church to a denomination. I'm sure God would not authorize the change agents to convert His church and make it into a denomination and succumb to denominational teachings, beliefs and practices. Get your facts straight, Ray.

John the Apostle faced similar challenges when he wrote his letters. He faced a group of Christians who claimed you had to have special knowledge to be saved. He wrote his letters to combat this. His emphasis over and over was you could know you were saved, not by having a correct interpretation, or having a correct tradition, or having a special knowledge. You know you are saved by believing in the Lord Jesus as the Christ, and living your life as if Jesus really IS your Lord and Savior.

RESPONSE: You're deviating from the subject matter again, Ray. If apostle John or Paul were with us in this postmodern era, either one's message would be directed to the change agents -- the real church troublemakers. Why can't change agents leave peaceful congregations alone? Why can't they start their own church(es) from scratch?

Like you, I continue to pray for their hearts to be softened by the Spirit of Jesus and by the Love of God.

May the Holy Spirit dwell in you richly as you serve God and follow Jesus.

RESPONSE: "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." Colossians 3:16.

Donnie,

Where you and your website err is preaching your denominational vision rather than Jesus as the Christ. You do not even understand Restoration Movement history. You preach a message that is not from the Scriptures nor even from the early Restoration Movement teachings. Many of the 19th and early 20th century Restoration Movement leaders believed the scriptures allowed for female deacons. You call that the restructuring of change agents. While many (but not all) early Restoration Movement leaders opposed Intrumental Music, few called it a sin and even fewer advocated division. It was the later generational leaders that divided over it. Our modern arguments concerning baptism, grace, works, faith and the importance of the Lord's Supper are clearly taught in the scriptures, but not the argument against instrumental music. Your arguments are not from the scriptures but from your interpretations, and from uninspired and pagan writers.

What you call change agents are simply faithful Christians calling us take off our tradition blinders and to return to the scriptures.

I do not expect you to believe me. In your mindset that yours and John Waddey's and Ken's teachings are infallible, you will not acept anything that disagrees with your doctrine, even if what you disagree with is clearly taught in the scriptures.

You believe that your are authorized to condemn where God has not condemned, call something a sin that God has not called a sin, and pass judgement where God has not passed judgement. The scriptures never gave you that authority and several passages specifically teach against assuming such. But you rationalize and justify yourself rather than God.

Your denomination is shrinking while God's Church grows.

And I say this as a life long and faithful servant of God and faithful member of the churches of Christ.

Please turn away from trusting is your own gnosis and following misguided men such as Ken and John. Please follow and put your trust and faith in God only.

When the word DEACONESS was used in some churches it was called a SEWING CIRCLE. There is no such word as "deaconess" but it was used at times of female ministers we would call NUNS who were pledged to celibacy.

When the Organ and Missionary Society Party decided to add instruments in New Bern Tn (one of few in TN) the case was taken to law and the AGENTS of Standard Publishing affirmed to the Judge that "IF the organ was used AS worship it would be a SIN." They used the AID dodge but the Judge knew better. That division certainly envisioned NOTHING MORE than just the organ which was more "filler" noise kept subservient to the singing. Therefore, you can find not a single person who would defend the use of Rock and Roll instruments and CALL it worship. Not even the Catholics had "congregational singing with instrumental accompaniment." And since the COMMANDED "that which is written" was not metrical they COULD NOT have had a musical entertainment ritual. The protestants as more a political movement had to REWRITE the Psalms to make singing possible.

First, be aware that what what became The Church of Christ was never "joined" with what became the Disciples/Christian Church. While some groups were fraternally united the Millerite movement totally seduced the Disciples. That was when they formed a missionary society because THE had to save all of the Jews to make it POSSIBLE for Jesus to return in 1843. The Millennial Harbinger was started to repudiate the Millerites and Disciples movement. That was when Campbell denied that a few men shaking hands JOINED the Church of Christ to the Disciples althought Barton W. Stone boasted that they had been captured.

On the ORGAN QUESTION J.W.McGarvey who was driven out of his own church wrote.

Up to the year 1869 the churches of disciples, with possibly a few obscure exceptions had abstained from the use of instrumental music in their public worship,

......and the preachers with no publicly known exceptions were opposed to it.
...... It was opposed by some as being inexpedient, and by others as being unscriptural.

In the year 1864 I published an article in the Millennial Harbinger for November advocating the latter position, Early in the next year, A. S. Hayden, a distinguished brother in Ohio, replied, and the subject was pretty fully discussed in the Harbinger by several writers during the year 1865. All these writers held the practice to be inexpedient, but some denied that the Scriptures condemn it.

This was the beginning of the discussion of the question among us. It had been a subject of protracted dissension among Presbyterians, Baptists and Methodists for a generation previous,

......the practice gradually gaining ground,
............first in the cities,
............then in the villages,
............and finally in country congregations.

As the disciples were set for the restoration of Primitive[p. 62] Christianity
......which was universally known to be free from the practice,
......they were the last religious body in this country to think of resorting to it.

But the influence of surrounding examples gradually wrought a change in the feeling of the rank and file of the membership, and this [43] leavened the sentiments of the preachers until there grew up in city congregations a decided inclination to be like their religious neighbors.
This inclination developed into action in the city of St. Louis in the year 1869, when the congregation meeting on Olive Street, in a building purchased from the Episcopalians with a pipe organ in it, resolved to use the organ in its worship, whereupon a considerable number of prominent and influential members withdrew and held meetings elsewhere.

On instrumental music:

http://www.piney.com/MuJWMc.html

That a vast amount of evil has been occasioned by the introduction of instrumental music into Christian worship is undeniable.

Beginning with the first instance of it among us which I can remember that which caused a schism in the church in St. Louis in the year 1869 (Our Note:1851 Midway KY by a liberal over the physical objections of the elder),

......its progress has been attended by strife, alienation, and division,
...... with all their attendant evils, in hundreds of congregations.

Before this it had bred similar evils among Methodist societies and Baptist and Presbyterian churches; for all these bodies in their early days knowing that the practice originated in the Roman Catholic Church, regarded it as a Romish corruption and refused to tolerate it until it was forced upon them by the spirit of innovation which characterized the present century.

Now it is obvious that these evils, the baleful effects of which will never be fully revealed until the day of judgment,

......> must be charged either against those who have introduced the instrument
......> or against those who have opposed its introduction.

Captainc
(Login Captainc08)
75.163.152.80

To Ray.... August 7 2009, 12:31 AM

First of all, I'm about six weeks behind this lengthy dialoge between you and brother Cruz. It's a blessing to reflect on how I was raised and taught by family members who emphasized the true and singular nature of the Church (I Pet. 2 9-10)...and how the church is not a "church of churches" with differing names that practice varying positions (acappella
and/or instrumental, infant baptism, no baptism, and perhaps other doctrines) that are held together on the single premise that we all "believe in Jesus." Sadly, at this point, some of these family members have espoused these "change agent ideas"...so it appears you have too.

To make reference to "Church of Christ" as a denomination reflects a loss of appreciation for the true church as we read about in familiar refrain throughout the NT...made up of those "added unto the Lord", the body and Bride of Christ, in locality Colosse, Corinth, Ephesus...etc.

Am assuming from the above post you also seem insistent in posturing IM as an inspired and acceptable practice in assemblies of Gods holy people today. Is hard not to reflect on the R. Atchley series (12/06) and how he makes every effort to portray instrumental forms as equally acceptable to God despite the absence of inspiration in the NT. R. Atchley's "lifting out" of passages from 2 Chronicles chaps 5, 29, & 30...(events and wording do have their appeal)..and then quickly attempting to dismiss the teaching of the Hebrew period as no longer binding is noteworthy. He then made at least one attack on a writer from the mid-20th century as "standing over the word of God"...which is what he is really doing. It just raises the deeper question of why people like R. Atchley seem to have a need to defend the "instrumentalists."

Almost enough said for now...in closing I must say that sound thinking bretheren will take to heart passages such as 2 Pet. 1:1-12 in "making your calling and election sure...in doing so you will not fall."

In Him,

Captainc

Nowhere in the New Testament will you find ANY pattern for a "Worship Service" and yet we still bicker over "traditions' instead of practicing what James called pure and undefiled religion.

I wonder if IM ever crossed Jesus' mind as He hung on that cross paying the penalty for our sin.

Both sides of this controversy have done much to turn away unsaved people by their un-biblical bickering and it needs to stop.

Certainly IM came across the mind of Christ: it was prophesied that the Levitical Warrior musicians abandoned to worship the starry host, would MOCK and encompass Jesus like DOGS. This points to the almost universal understanding that the DOGS were the emasculated priests of the Mother Goddess. In the Garden of Eden she/ he is called the singing and harp playing prostitue. In Revelation 17 she is called the Babylonian mother of harlots: she used "lusted after fruits" as speakers, singers and instrument players. John called them SORCERERS. Psalm 41 defines in detail the musical mocking of Messiah. Christ in Spirit through the PROPHETS marked all of the sacrificial system agandoned to worship the starry host as robbers and parasites--Just what God through Samuel PROMISED when He gave them kings in his anger.

No one prior to the recent LUSTERS to use the Sacrificial system as their PATTERNISM to use music which always meant "to make the lambs dumb before the slaughter" could even HALLUCINATE a "music" role since they grasped that ekklesia or synagogue is a school of the Bible--only. Anc Christ outlawed "vocal or instrumental rejoicing" for the Church of Christ in the Wilderness and never changed His Mind.

THOSE IMPOSING MUSIC AND MUSICIANS INTO THE FACE OF THOSE ACCUSTOMED TO GATHER IN REVERENCE AND GODLY FEAR BOAST THAT THEIR PATTERNISM IS BASED ON THE TEMPLE AND NOT THE TABERNACLE (national) and Synagogue (local)

I am surprised that so few of the Kingdom of Christ or the Church of Christ were SHAKEN when they heard the final SHAKING (musical sounds). It may be that those who have been Shellyed into believing that the "church is ONLY about worship" and have rushed to buy the New Style Song books or who have USED musical worship teams to claim the role of Mediators, include a much larger part of the kingdom which HAS been shaken and therefore REMOVED. The ELECT are identified as NOT being able to be SHAKEN.

Heb. 12:28 Therefore, receiving a kingdom that cant be shaken,
......let us have grace, through which we serve God acceptably, with reverence and awe,
Heb. 12:29 for our God is a consuming fire.

They are also MARKED by ignorance of the Nadab and Abihu pattern which makes them laugh and laugh.

One of the hate crime used by many of those being "turned over to worship the starry host" is that the Church of Christ inherited its ANTI-instrument "legalistic, sectarian, patternist hypocritic practice" of not BEGINNING to do what it had NEVER done from the Puritans who of course were influenced by John Calvin and the free thinkers opposed to a SECTOR of the Church of England.

Calvin like all historic scholars understood the difference between the TABERNACLE in one location and the SYNAGOGUE in all small gatherings and the Temple under the Monarchy whom God had "turned over to worship the starry host." All of this SECT were of Levi and Jacob had warned people NOT to attend the assemblies of the tribe of Levi.

John L. Girardeau Instrumental Music in Worship

http://www.piney.com/MuGeoGir1.html

The General Argument from Scripture

The elements of worship in the Mosaic dispensation were of two kinds:

(1.) The generic or essential.... Without here raising the question whether synagogues had an existence prior to the Babylonian exile, one would risk little in taking the ground that, during all the time of the church's development in the past,

God's people had been accustomed to meet on Sabbath days for engagement in these essential parts of divine worship. The patriarchal dispensation being left out of account, in which, however, every sentiment of piety and reverence, the original institution of the seventh day as one of rest, and the acquaintance of the Israelites with the law of the Sabbath before the promulgation of the Sinaitic law, render it highly probable that such a practice was maintained, a few reasons will be intimated in favor of its maintenance during the period of the Jewish economy:

First, The fourth commandment made the sacred observance of every Sabbath day obligatory. It is not reasonable to suppose that the law contemplated the merely individual and private keeping holy of the day.

Secondly, The Israelites, during their sojourn in the wilderness, were accustomed to worship every Sabbath day in mass at the tabernacle. It was accessible from every part of the encampment which was around it on every side. The proof of this is given in Lev. 23:3: "Six days Shall work be done: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of rest, an holy convocation."

After the musical fall from Grace the STRANGERS including Israelites NOT of the tribe of Levi would be killed if they came close to any holy things. Even though the Levites made no "musical" noise, they too would be executed if they came close to any holy part of the Tabernacle.

While people assume that people did other social things at the "church in the wilderness" the Holy Convocation part of their assembly was very restricted to instruction as was the church as ekklesia. For one thing, they did not play instruments on the Sabbath (until they were abandoned) because that would constitute WORK. The Levites polluted the Sabbath with instrumental noise because they had been abandoned by God



The prescriptive usage of meeting for worship on every Sabbath was thus established during their forty years' pilgrimage in: the desert. In all that time during which they held weekly assemblies, let it also be observed, they knew nothing of instrumental music. It is altogether unreasonable to suppose that this habit, ingrained into them in the early period of their national existence and consecrated by innumerable sacred and splendid associations, would have ceased to be influential after their wanderings had ceased and they had been permanently located in the land of rest.

Such an innovation upon their customs could only have occurred in consequence either of a divine command enforcing the change, or of a serious defection from their religious principles. We know that neither of these causes operated to produce the supposed revolution in their habits of worship. Upon their settlement in Canaan, they were of course dispersed in consequence of their tribal distribution throughout the length and breadth of the country from Dan to Beersheba,

......and, as the tabernacle was necessarily at any particular time confined to one spot, it was not accessible to congregations representing all Israel, except upon the occasions of the prescribed national festivals. What, then, were they doing on all the other Sabbaths of the year in their cities and towns, villages and rural neighborhoods? It cannot be supposed that on those Sabbaths they never met for worship. This consideration is mightily enhanced by the fact that only the males of Israel were enjoined to attend the great annual festivals.

Another Presbyterian, John Calvin understood that the Qahal, synagogue or church in the wilderness was for those in their own communities.

Were the women, the mothers of Israel, the trainers of children and youth, left destitute of all public worship? The supposition cannot be entertained. Provision must have been made for their engagement in the stated public worship of their God.

John L. Girardeau Instrumental Music in Worship
ARGUMENT FROM THE OLD TESTAMENT.

http://www.piney.com/MuGeoGir2.html

Moses received the mode of constructing the tabernacle and the order of its worship by divine revelation. "See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern showed to thee in the mount." It will be admitted that the instructions thus divinely given descended to the most minute detailsóthe sort of fabrics and skins to be used, and their diverse colors, the pins, the ouches and the taches, the ablutions, the vestments and the actions of the officiating priests and Levites, the ingredients of the holy ointment and the incense, the parts, the arrangements, the instruments of worship, to everything connected with the tabernacle these specific directions referred.
......Of course, if God had intended instrumental music to be employed, it would have been included in these particular directions; the instruments would have been specified for its performance, and regulations enjoined for its use.

What, now, are the facts? No directions are given respecting instruments of musid. Two instruments of sound are provided for, but they were of such a character as to make it impracticable to use them ordinarily as accompaniments of the voice in singing. The record is: "And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps." "And if ye go to war in your land against the enemy that oppresseth you, thou shalt blow an alarm with the trumpets; and ye shall be remembered before the Lord your God, and ye shall be saved from your enemies. Also in the days of your gladness, and in your solemn days, and in the beginnings of your months, ye shall blow with the trumpets over your burnt-offerings, and over the sacrifices of your peace-offerings; that they may be to you for a memorial before your God: I am the Lord your God."

The blowing of these trumpets as a signal for marching, or for going to war, had certainly nothing to do with worship, neither did the call of the congregation to assemble belong to the performance of worship, any more than a church bell now, the ringing of which ceases when the services begin.

There is nothing to show that the blowing of the trumpets, on festival days and at the beginning of months, over the offerings was accompanied by singing on the part of priests and Levites. There is no mention of that fact, and Jewish tradition opposes the supposition.

Moreover, it is almost certain that the blowing of trumpets on such occasions was a representative act performed by the priests, and that consequently it was not accompanied by the singing of the congregation. It is true that there is one recorded exception (2 Chron. 5:12, 13) which occurred, however, when the tabernacle had given way to the temple

This was when God gave David a Jebusite or pagan High Place because he was too afraid of God to go to the original Tabernacle. However, it was Solomon who moved up to Moriah and built a Temple whereas God had only promised David a Tabernacle or Tent.

At the dedication of the latter edifice, the priests blew the trumpets at the same time that the Levites sang and played upon instruments of music,

......so as "to make one sound"
......but it is evident that on that great occasion of rejoicing,
......what was aimed at was not musical harmony,
......but a powerful crash of jubilant sound.

We are shut up to the conclusion that there was nothing in the tabernacle-worship, as ordered by Moses, which could be justly characterized as instrumental music.

This absence of instrumental music from the services of the tabernacle continued not only during the wanderings of the Israelites in the desert, but after their entrance into the promised land, throughout the protracted period of the Judges, the reign of Saul, and a part of David's.

When God "gave them kings in His anger" He promised that the kings would carry out the captivity and death penalty imposed when because of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai God sentenced them to return to BEYOND BABYLON. If you conclude that God commanded the animal slaughter with exorcism noise it is the PATTERNISM for those who have been abandoned to walk in their own ways which ALWAYS lusts for idols and idolatry.

No one denied that prior to the Disciple Sectarians which split the Disciples / Christian churches by imposing instruments based on the LAW OF SILENCE. Those known as The Church of Christ were never JOINED to the Disciples at any time other than agreeing to work jointly on projects. That ended--as the Disciples confessed--when the Millerites spooked them into believing that THEY had to save all of the Jews to ENABLE the return of Jesus in 1843. The name Millenniel Harbinger intended to EXPOSE all of the various theories. After cutting off assoiation by their missionary society it turned out that the JEWS didn't want to be saved and Jesus didn't return in 1843. The Jubilee heresy was based on the same need to JOIN everyone to enable Jesus to return Y2K.

Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle" (2 Thess. 2:15 KJV).

"Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us" (2 Thess 3:6 KJV).

Christians are to keep the apostolic traditions, which include the pattern of worship. From Acts 20, 1 Cor. 10, 1 Cor. 16, Eph. 5:19, and Col 3:16, we know that the apostles' worship consisted of prayer, preaching, studying the Word of God, a collection, singing hymns, and partaking of the Lord's Supper, all of which took place on the first day of the week. None of these apostolic traditions mentioned the use of instrumental music in worship. So it should be a simple matter for faithful Christians to stay within the bounds of Scripture in all matters of worship and doctrine, the principle of which is taught in 1 Cor. 4:6.