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Your Ole Pal
(no login)

Donnie's COMPLETE Copy and Paste

January 4 2010, 11:03 AM 

In response, Donnie, I thought that I would copy and paste your remarks and answer from J. Waddey's post of 'Varieties of Change Agents.' You copied in part (9 categories), brought/pasted it here to this present post of William's. I just copied it in it's entirety. Why leave any of it out? If this is your idea of a truthful response, then good luck with your continued charades here at concerned members.

Donnie Cruz--"If "change agents" have already/just arrived at your congregation [where "changes" in the doctrine and teachings and practices of the church are now being noticed], what category best describes these change agents?

(1) The architects and designers of the Change Movement [from ACU, Pepperdine, DLU]?
(2) The traveling salesmen of change in workshops, retreats and campus programs?
(3) "Pastors" [who love being addressed as "Pastor Sumone"] in your own church?
(4) Those who show-case and demonstrate the change agenda of Rick Warren and the Community Church Movement?
(5) "Like wolves" in vulnerable congregations like yours?
(6) Deceiving change agents being with those easily deceived?
(7) Those who want to change the entire brotherhood?
(8) Those who abuse the Restoration Movement principles and desire to be affiliated with the Christian Church?
(9) Some or a combination of the above?

Beware!!! To congregations unaware of what's happening: "The Change Agents Are Coming! The Change Agents Are Coming!""

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Your Ole Pal
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Re: Donnie's COMPLETE Copy and Paste

January 6 2010, 10:20 AM 

Noticed your legal definitive post (not highlighted or bold or in color or capitalized) towards the bottom of the page....

"This web site is not part of or approved by any Church!"

Ha! You got that right Donnie Cruz!!!

Sly like foxes, you boys are!!!

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Ken Sublett
(no login)

The last trump

January 6 2010, 7:35 PM 

My lust for a Yemenite shofar has been fulfilled: it just "blew" in a few hours ago.
Already I can blow the last TRUMP pretty easily. Here is a picture pretty close to mine.

[linked image]

Be advised that a wind instrument works by BLOWING BACK: you may have to eat a few pieces of Ibex horn in the process. Mine is half polished so pretty natural.

That's your INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC: the only NOISE makers permitted by God to send SURE SIGNALS.

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Your Ole Pal
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Hohenwald Here I Come!!!

January 7 2010, 9:26 AM 

You got any time in the next month for me to come up to Hohenwald? I want to see that fortress of yours.

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(no login)

Re: Hohenwald Here I Come!!!

January 7 2010, 6:04 PM 

Health won't permit it: I woke up at 1:30 today.
My wife checked my color and let me sleep.
Looking forward to the 24/7.
Now, I am heading to the recliner

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Ken Sublett
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Direct operation of the Spirit?

January 8 2010, 12:28 PM 

Jack Mann notes that John 20 is most often misunderstood.
That is a fact: while proof-texting to prove that an individual should be obeyed because they claim to be guided by the "spirit", most people fail to teach that which is written or that which has been taught. Over and over God warns against self-speak or private opinions.

Another point gleaned by follow up on this passage is that the power were given to all of the apostles and not just Peter.

And the result of all of the Apostles receiving power to open or close was that they imediately began to preach the Words of Christ which He bestows as BREATH which can save or consume

We have two accounts of Jesus meeting or "synagogue" on the first day of the week.
Jn 20:19 Then the same day at evening,
......being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut
......where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews,
......came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Jn 20:20 And when he had so said, he showed unto them his hands and his side.
......Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
Jn 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
Jn 20:22 And when he had said this, he BREATHED on them,
......and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy SPIRIT
Jn 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them;
......and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Psa 33:6 By
......the [1] word of the [2]Lord were the heavens made;
......and all the host of them by the [3]breath [Spirit] of His mouth
......he layeth up the depth in storehouses.
Psa 33:8 Let all the earth fear the Lord:
......let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him.
Psa 33:9 For he spake, and it was done;
......he commanded, and it stood fast.
Psa 33:10 The Lord bringeth
......the counsel of the heathen to nought: [private opinions]
......he maketh the DEVICES of the people of NONE EFFECT. an, contrivance, machines]

......Ma chashab ah h4284 from h2803 h2803 Chashab To weave colored fabrics, mixing threads and colors too think out, to invent, to compute, as songs [lmusic]
......Amos 6:5 That chant to the sound of the viol, and invent to themselves instruments of musick, like David;
......The Greek word is Pleko: plat, twine, weave, contrive, devise.
......of poets writing hymns or songs or dramatic plots by mythmonters not permitted write true history. Aoide singing, a spell, incantation.

"Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive."Sir Walter Scott

Aristotle: Melody Deceives: "Poets also make use of this in inventing words, as a melody "without strings" or "without the lyre"; for they employ epithets from negations, a course which is approved in proportional metaphors..

The form of diction should be neither metrical nor without rhythm.

If it is metrical, it lacks persuasiveness, for it appears artificial, and at the same time it distracts the hearer's attention, since it sets him on the watch for the recurrence of such and such a cadence..

According to Philo, the gods of the pagans exploit this weakness of men. For the sake of a better effect, and with the intention of more easily cheating their devotes, that they have set their lies to melodies, rhythms and meters.."


Psa 33:11 The counsel of the Lord standeth for ever,
the THOUGHTS of HIS heart to all generation

The records by Luke defines the meaning of BREATHING on them
Acts 1:1 THE former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
Acts 1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up,
......after that he through the Holy Ghost
......had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
Acts 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs,
......being seen of them forty days,
......and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

......In 2 Peter 1 he left us a MEMORY of what they had seen and heard about THE KINGDOM of God. He said that this confirmed word which was the PROPHECIES made more PERFECT must not be subject of "private interpretation." That means "further expounding" in the sense of Psalm 33:10 above which outlawed our private opinions (doubtful disputations in Romans 14) and the inventions or machines of the people.

Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them,
......commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem,
......but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water;
......but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

This event was manifested by WIND [breath] and FIRE which gave them the power to SPEAK words which would separate the chaff from the grain to be burned up.

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together,
......they asked of him, saying Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Acts 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power,
......after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you:
......and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem,
......and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

The favorite MANTRA today is to IMPROVISE or INNOVATE: hop to it but Psalm 33 says that it WON'T WORK.

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(no login)

Does it bother you?

January 8 2010, 1:05 PM 

Dr. Bill,

I am NOT arguing the individual items you noted, I am ONLY questioning the combination:

1. Does it bother you that 1/2 of the scriptures you listed were NOT spoken by our Lord Jesus?

2. Does it bother you that this combination was NOT required in ANY recorded conversion in the book of Acts?

3. Does it bother you that this list was NOT divinely combined in ANY SINGLE sermon recorded in the Bible?

4. Does it bother you that the Bible gives us divine examples of Christians with imperfect obedience who were still considered brothers in Christ?


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Ken Sublett
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Are you bothered that INSTRUMENTS are denounced from cover to cover

January 8 2010, 6:07 PM 

This comes pretty close.

Rom 10:6 Or, Who shall descend into the deep?
......(that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

Moses warned the musical idolaters that salvation was available in The Book of the Covenant of grace but they repudiated it. He promised that another prophet LIKE Moses would come and YOU shall hear Him or else:

Rom 10:8 But what saith it?
......The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth,
......and in thy heart: that is,
......the word of FAITH,
......which we PREACH;

Rom 10:9 That if thou
......shalt CONFESS with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,
......and shalt BELIEVE in thine heart
......that God hath RAISED him from the DEAD,
......thou shalt be saved.


Rom 10:10 For with the heart believeth unto righteousness; and
......with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Eisodos (g1529) ice'-od-os; from 1519 and 3598; an ENTRANCE (lit. or fig.): - COMING, entering) in (to).
Eis-odos is the Entrance-Road: You are on the WAY

Preaching the word,
confessing Lord Jesus,
Believe that God raised Him from the dead.


belief, call upon the name, must believe, must hear, preachers must be sent:

Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith,
...... Whosoever BELIEVETH on him
......shall NOT be ASHAMED.

Now, NOT ASHAMED is not the opposite of BEING SAVED (by faith only).


Rom 10:12 For there is NO DIFFERENCE between the Jew and the Greek:
Rom 10:13 for the SAME Lord over all is rich unto all THAT CALL UPON HIM.
......For whosoever shall CALL upon the NAME of the Lord shall be saved.

Here is how you call upon the name of the Lord

......Acts 2:38 baptism is into the NAME or calling upon the name.
...... Acts 22:16 Baptism washes away sins because it CALLS upon the Name.
...... 1 Pe 3:21 Baptism saves because it ASKS for A good conscience or A holy spirit.

How then shall they call on him in whom
they have not BELIEVED? and

how shall they believe in him of whom they have not HEARD? and
how shall they hear without a PREACHER (Kerusso Herald)? Rom 10:14


Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach (Go and herald),
...... except they be sent? as it is written,
...... How beautiful are the FEET of them that
...... preach the gospel of peace, and BRING glad tidings of good things


But they have not all OBEYED the GOSPEL. For Esaias saith, Lord,
who hath BELIEVED our report? Rom 10:16

So then FAITH cometh by HEARING, and hearing by the WORD of God. Rom 10:17
But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound WENT INTO all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. Rom 10:18
But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. Rom 10:19
But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was MADE MANIFEST unto them that asked not after me. Rom 10:20
But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my HANDS unto a DISOBEDIENT and GAINSAYING people. Rom 10:21

Antilego (g483) an-til'-eg-o; from 473 and 3004; to dispute, refuse: - answer again, contradict, deny, gainsay (-er), speak against.

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Dr. Bill Crump
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It Doesn't Bother Me at All

January 8 2010, 6:57 PM 

What's important is that Christ and/or His apostles spoke those requirements and that they are present in the New Testament. Too many people are not willing to accept them because, as I said in my initial post, they are not conveniently listed in one book or chapter. But when we read the WHOLE message of Christ in the New Testament, there those requirements are. People can deny them if they wish, but there they are. Christ spoke some of them and His apostles spoke others, because the apostles had the authority of Christ to do so. But there are folks who believe that anything beyond the four Gospels can be taken with a grain of salt.

When I was in college, I had courses with exams that required us to list certain properties or characteristics of things. The professor had never listed them conveniently 1-2-3 in the lectures as such, but the properties and characteristics were present somewhere in the material, nonethless. The exam tested us to see how well we knew the material and could summarize it by a list. The New Testament is the same way. The way to salvation is presented in the New Testament. It is man's responsibility to read the WHOLE message of the New Testament to see what Christ requires for salvation, either explicitly by His own words or through Him by His apostles. All I've done is to make it a bit easier for people to know those requirements by formulating them in a list. The requirements are there, no matter how much people want to deny them.

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Your Ole Pal
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Health Issues

January 11 2010, 3:47 PM 

Are you pretty much house confined? Can you get out any? What are your health issues?
Just wondering...

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(no login)

Speaking where God has not

January 12 2010, 7:52 AM 

Dr. Bill,

I preface once again that I am not challenging anything that God has stated, but I am challenging the right or audacity of any human to build their own list and call it "God's Word".

So, it does not bother you that you have created a man-made list based on your summarization of what you believe is required. Since Holy God in His wisdom never made a list like you have made - you yourself have confessed that you have made this summary on God's behalf - I am glad you are comfortable that you have seen yourself fit to speak where God has not. You may have left things off or you may have added things, but you are comfortable with your made made list rather than just letting the Word of God speak for themselves.

Thank you for clarifying this for all of us.

God bless

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(no login)

The Real Plan of Salvation

January 12 2010, 4:11 PM 

This man-made checklist is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is just a man-made checklist based on one man's interpretation of another man's sermon/outline.

The movement that became the churches of Christ, Christian Church, and Disciples of Christ was born on the American frontier. Religious life there was dominated by denominational separation and revivalistic enthusiasm. It was often thought that salvation was entirely a matter of God's choice, electing some individuals to salvation and others to damnation. The individual could do nothing except hope and pray that he or she was among the elect. One was told to wait until some sign of God's Spirit at work in one's life indicated one was chosen by God.

In reacting to this situation, early preachers in the Restoration Movement, notably Walter Scott, developed a simple "plan of salvation" that spelled out what human beings could do in response to God's grace. God had already acted for human salvation, and awaited the individual's response. The "plan of salvation" consisted of six "steps"--three actions for human beings to take, and three actions that God would take. Humans were to believe in Jesus Christ, repent of their sins, and be baptized in the name of Jesus. God would grant forgiveness of sins, the gift of the Holy Spirit, and eternal life. For ease in remembering them, these six steps were compressed to five by combining the final two, and the "five finger exercise" of early Restoration Movement evangelism was developed. It was in fact a simple and biblically based "sermon" of what human beings could do who wanted to respond to the grace of God revealed in Christ.

In later Restoration Movement history, the "plan of salvation" developed into several different forms, tending to neglect what God had already done and to emphasize human responsibility. A common form that became "standard" in the early twentieth century was "hearing the gospel, faith, repentance, confession, baptism, live a Christian life." The five finger man made-outline, even in the current form promoted here, while Biblically based, represents evolving Restoration Movement tradition - an evolution from Grace to works.

Thanks be to God many, if not most, Churches of Christ are returning to the Gospel of Grace. Let's continue to pray we get back to the Bible and the Blood of Jesus as our Gospel:

"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." (Acts 2:36, NIV)

"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12, NIV)

"We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a tree, but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen--by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." (Acts 10:39-43, NIV)

"Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses." (Acts 13:38-39, NIV)

"Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of the Lord, which he bought with his own blood." (Acts 20:28, NIV)

"But I have had God's help to this very day, and so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen-- that the Christ would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would proclaim light to his own people and to the Gentiles." (Acts 26:22-23, NIV)

"But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus." (Romans 3:21-26, NIV)

"You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation." (Romans 5:6-11, NIV)

"Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength." (1 Cor. 1:23-25, NIV)

"When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power" (1 Cor. 2:1-5, NIV)

"Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born. " (1 Cor. 15:1-8, NIV)

"In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding." (Ephesians 1:7-8, NIV)

"Remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ." (Ephesians 2:12-13, NIV)

"For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins." (Colossians 1:13-14, NIV)

"For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him [Jesus], and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross." (Colossians 1:19-20, NIV)

"When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not manmade, that is to say, not a part of this creation. He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption." (Hebrews 9:11-12, NIV)

"How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness." (Hebrews 9:14, 22, NIV)

"The high priest carries the blood of animals into the Most Holy Place as a sin offering, but the bodies are burned outside the camp. And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood." (Hebrews 13:11-12, NIV)

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin." (1 John 1:7, NIV)

"Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down. They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death." (Revelation 12:10-11, NIV)

God bless

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(no login)

I would not understand Ray's "REAL PLAN" of salvation

January 12 2010, 5:22 PM 


All you've done so far is discredit the Restoration Movement and its principles. Not unlike the change agents operating in the brotherhood, you're also attempting to rewrite the RM history, as well as to restructure or reorganize the church that Christ established. The other expression for that is "Restoration Movement Revisionism" or "Church of Christ Restructuring." It is too late for that, Ray.

If I were a conversion prospect who is interested in God's plan of redemption and in becoming His child, I would not understand YOUR scheme of redemption. You quoted passages as well -- only in a topsy turvy manner.

I am unable to distinguish:

(1) The passages that deal with the Savior's plan for man to accept God's GRACE (His part) and OBEY the gospel (man's part) in order for the sinner [one outside of Christ] to be redeemed in the blood of the Lamb

------------- from -------------

(2) The passages that deal with those who are already in Christ [Christians].

All you've done is quote the passages from Acts to Revelation (in the order of NT books) and call that God's order of redemption?

Ray, you can do better than that. I honestly feel that if your mind weren't preoccupied with your negativity towards the church that Jesus established, you would not be rejecting God's orderly plan of redemption.

Again, you have NOT presented in a clear manner God's process of conversion as specified or outlined in the New Testament.

Ray, exactly what would you tell Evgeni Jaska what to do, according to Scripture, in order for him to receive redemption in His blood and become a Christian?

In simple words from your knowledge of God's truth, how would you explain the conversion process to Evgeni?


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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: I would not understand Ray's "REAL PLAN" of salvation

January 12 2010, 6:15 PM 

So people say that we in the church of Christ need to "get back to the Bible," yet they object to any kind of "list" that neatly summaries everything that Christ absolutely requires for salvation. Those people say that a list may "add" things" or "leave things out." There's nothing in the list of Christ's requirements for salvation that is not mentioned as NECESSARY for salvation in the New Testament.

So what has been "added"? Hearing the Gospel? Nope. That's required, because it's in the New Testament. Belief in Christ? Nope. That's there as well. Repentance? Confession? Baptism? Obedience? Nope. They're all present in the New Testament as absolute requirements for salvation.

So what's been "left out"? Assembly on the first day of the week? Observing the Lord's Supper? Visiting the sick? Doing good for mankind? Nope. They all fall under Requirement number 6: obedience to all of Christ's teachings after a person has been converted.

If an unbeliever is to be converted, he must begin by hearing the Gospel BEFORE he can believe. And he must believe BEFORE he can repent, confess, and be baptized for remission of sins. All of those Christ first requires for a person to become a Christian: hearing the Gospel, believing the Gospel, repentance, confession, and baptism. Once a person becomes a Christian, he spends the rest of his life in obedience to all the remaining teachings of Christ as discussed in the original post.

So people need to overcome their hangups about "lists," even if man takes what Christ and His apostles taught and summarizes them in a list. There is nothing wrong with summarizing the teachings of Christ and His apostles in a list. Actually, those who abhor lists about Christ's teachings seem to imply that they subtly abhor those teachings. Or maybe they abhor anyone from the church of Christ who makes such a list.

Here's another thought. The term "Holy Bible" that describes the written Word of God is not found anywhere in the Bible itself. Such a well-accepted term is man-made. So is that term to be shunned as sinful because God Himself does not use the term "Holy Bible"?

Therefore, although the list of Christ's requirements for salvation is man-made, those requirements themselves are not man-made.

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(no login)

Concerned has a problem with the NT uninterpreted?

January 12 2010, 9:45 PM 


I have made no revisions or changes to RM history has you have slandered. Walter Scott's development of the "five finger" plan is well documented, and the plan he developed is not the same as that usually represented today.

1. Stevenson's Scott biography, Walter Scott: Voice of the Golden Oracle (1946):

The story is repeated there on p. 74 as follows:

no small measure for his singular successes in those first months with an
untried idea. One day, in late afternoon, he was riding into a village, when
he came upon a troop of children returning home from school. Always fond of
children and quickly trusted by them, he soon had the group around him.

He then said to them: "Children, hold up your left hands." They all did so,
in great eagerness.

"Now," said their charming new friend, "beginning with your thumb repeat
what I say to you: Faith, repentance, baptism, remission of sins, gift of
the Holy Spirit--that takes up all your fingers. Now again! Faith,
repentance, baptism, remission of sins, gift of the Holy Spirit. . . .
Children, now run home--don't forget what is on your fingers, and tell your
parents that a man will preach the gospel to-night at the school-house, as
you have it on the five fingers of your hands."

Away went the children, in great glee, repeating as they went, "Faith,
repentance, baptism, remission of sins, gift of the Holy Spirit"--and soon
the story was rehearsed in nearly every house of the village and
neighborhood; and long before the hour of meeting the house was thronged,
and, of course, not a few of the children were there, all expecting to have
great sport with the crazy man.>>

2. That story, repeated by Stevenson with a partial quote from his presumed
source, can be traced back to Baxter's classical Life of Elder Walter Scott
(1874), also online:

There, on pp. 184/185, we can read the following:

the school children who were returning home from school, in such a way that
he soon had quite a circle of them gathered round him. He then said to them:
"Children, hold up your left hands." They all did so, anticipating some
sport. "Now," said he, "beginning with your thumb repeat what I say to you:
Faith, repentance, baptism, remission of sins, gift of the Holy Spirit--that
takes up all your fingers. Now, again: Faith, repentance, baptism, remission
of sins, gift of the Holy Spirit. [184] Now, again, faster, altogether:
Faith, repentance, baptism, remission of sins, gift of the Holy Spirit"--and
thus he continued until they all could repeat it in concert, like a column
of the multiplication table. They were, all intensely amused, thinking that
he was a harmless, crazy man. He then said: "Children, now run home--don't
forget what is on your fingers, and tell your parents that a man will preach
the gospel to-night at the school-house, as you have it on the five fingers
of your hands." Away went the children, in great glee, repeating as they
went, "Faith, repentance, baptism, remission of sins, gift of the Holy
Spirit"--and soon the story was rehearsed in nearly every house of the
village and neighborhood; and long before the hour of meeting the house was
thronged, and, of course, not a few of the children were there, all
expecting to have great sport with the crazy man.>>

3. That a five-part formula--though with a conflation of baptism and
remission of sins plus the added eternal life--was characteristic of Scott
is attested as early as 1828 in a letter of J. E. Church, a Stoneite, who
wrote on 26 July 1828 from New Lisbon, Ohio, as follows:

He has made an unusual number of disciples the past year. His method and
manner are somewhat novel to me; but in consequence of his extraordinary
success in reforming mankind, I feel no disposition at present to pronounce
him heretical. He seems to suppose the Apostolic Gospel consists of the five
following particulars, viz., faith, repentance, baptism for the remission of
sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost, and eternal life. Thus you see he baptizes
the subject previous to the remission of sins, or the receiving of the Holy
Spirit. I would like to have your views on the subject.>> (CM 2/11
[September 1828], 261).

In case you wondered, here is what Stone replied to Church:

baptizing the believing subjects prior to the remission of his sins, and of
his receiving the Holy Spirit. I am sorry that I have not the back Nos. Of
the Messenger to send you, in which this subject is particularly treated. We
have for some time since practised in this way throughout our country. Many
of the most successful Baptists pursue the same course. I have no doubt but
that it will become the universal practice, though vehemently opposed.>>
(Ibid., 262)

What is significant is that you will not find any post-Biblical writer using anything similar to the five-finger exercise until Scott used it in the 19th century. What is even more significant is you will not find it taught in any conversion example in the NT, or in any single sermon or letter recorded in the NT. As Dr. Bill has said for himself, it is a compilation of what he believes are the required elements, using Scott's model as his template.

My concern is this: why does anyone feel the need to improve on the way God himself has presented the plan of salvation? What is wrong with just reading through the examples given and letting the Bible speak for itself?

When we rely on a man-made compilation and call it a "plan" rather than just relying on the Word of God only, we risk adding what is not important or omitting what is. We risk relying on something other than the blood of Jesus to cleanse from us from all sin. We risk trusting our own ability to do our salvation right, rather than relying on what God has done on the cross. We risk trying to earn our wages rather than accepting the free gift from God.

Jesus the Messiah and his apostles did not rely on Dr. Bill's or Walter Scott's plan. Why should we?

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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: Concerned has a problem with the NT uninterpreted?

January 13 2010, 12:37 AM 

In order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse us from all sin, we must obey Christ's commandments. If we faithfully obey what He so commanded, then He will cleanse us and save us. The verses cited in the original post show that Christ saves only those who are obedient unto Him. That obedience begins with the conversion process and continues with following the remainder of Christ's teachings in the New Testament for the rest of our lives. That is the plan of Christ's salvation. Man can put it into a list, but the plan belongs to Christ. We must therefore read and study the ENTIRE New Testament to get the WHOLE plan of salvation. The list of Christ's requirements for salvation adds nothing and leaves out nothing. It only helps man to see what Christ requires. As I keep saying yet others keep denying, the list is a summary of Christ's Gospel, which is: if you convert and become a Christian, then faithfully follow Christ's teachings all your life, you will have the promise of eternal life, because the blood of Christ will have cleansed you.

Without obeying all that Christ taught, there can be no salvation. His blood does not save those who will not obey Him.

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Ken Sublett
(no login)

GRACE, Word is God made visible and audible.

January 12 2010, 6:53 PM 

Anyone who ever attended Restorationism Card Class 101a knows that Walter Scott was teaching a CARD CLASS.
Anyone who ever read would understand that the "Reformers" seeking a leader did NOT originate at Cane Ridge and Calvinism had been rejected by many Presbyterians long before Thomas Campbell wrote his "declaration of independance" which defined "church as a school of the Bible and "worship" as reading and musing the Word of God. Thomas was defacto ousted from the Presbyterians because by GRACE he PERMITTED people to observe the Lord's Supper without the denominational stamp of approval.

[linked image]

Alexander led a large group of Baptists into grace by teaching that they could be baptized for the remission of sins and being added to the church without a popular vote of the club. The "steps" were just the logical sequence which led from the Word of Christ as the method of Grace to Christ accepting a person by adding them to His church. Grace to the modern knows-little sect was some brown-eyed Greek singer/prostitutes like the Muses. Therefore, GRACE is not for the knows-little to "know we gonna sin but grace gonna cover up the smell." GRACE, like WORD, is a designator for God Who is personified like Water or the ROCK in the wilderness. The Church of Christ was defined way back then as the patternism for the Campbells.

God had repudiated faith-only at the Red Sea, commanded faith to turn from Egypt, be buried in the Red Sea, see "sin" dead in the water, were resurrected on the safe side, had the 'spirit' guiding them onward. The people heard, believed,repented or changed direction, were baptized, had sin remitted, were guided by the Spirit of Christ, were given The Book of The Covenant to guide them. That worked until the turned BACK to musical idolatry and LOST GRACE and were sentenced to return to "Babylon" like some churches Ray defends.

[linked image]

Grace or Charisma gives POWER to be conformed to what the Living Grace taught as the Living Word.

"Charisma" in the modern musical sense is Charismatic which defines all attempts to worship a Spirit God as sexual or homosexual. Charis includes a "man giving a favor to another man." When Alexander PLUCKED (psallo) his harp it was to seduce a young male whose hairs had been plucked.

That's why so MANY flee Babylon when the singy-clappy boys mount the podium as the fulfilment of Christ in Isaiah of the "women and effeminate ruling over you.

If you can SEE it in the action of pitiful, soft males, HEAR it as self-speak or SMELL it as female aroma supposed to work magic it is NOT the GRACE also known as Jesus Christ.

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Ray: Explain, then, God's plan of salvation

January 13 2010, 12:26 AM 


You've been negating just about anything that's been presented in various posts.

Honestly, what is confusing you in regard to Scott's fingering system?

1. Is it the wrong order or sequence of events?
2. Are there too many steps?
3. Too few?
4. Are they without scriptural support?
5. Are they too complex for anyone to follow?

Just what is your problem? You haven't even responded to the question asked earlier: What
message from God's truth would you give to someone who desires to be redeemed in the blood of
Christ and become God's child?

Speak clearly, Ray.

With your knowledge of God's truth, how would you explain the conversion process
to someone who is not yet in Christ and wants to be redeemed in His blood and become a
member of His body? [BE STRAIGHTFORWARD.]


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(no login)

Not going after Donnie's tangent

January 13 2010, 7:53 AM 


This is not about me - it is about repackaging the Word of God. I have already said that I am not questioning the individual elemants: I firmly believe the scriptures teach that I must put my faith in Jesus as the Messiah, change my life, be immersed in His name, and follow Him. I also firmly believe that if I put my faith in anything else, including my own works, then Christ died for nothing. I am challenging three things:

First, Dr. Bill said that Christ commanded the list he gave. It was easy to prove that Christ did not. Jesus commanded some things, others are only known from examples in Acts. Some are wide open to interpretation as to exactly what they mean or include (Dr. Bill's last point, for example).

Second, I am trying to point out that the list is not found anywhere in the scriptures, nor found anywhere in church history until Walter Scott. Dr. Bill has acknowledged that it is not in the scripture but that he has compiled it himself (without even giving credit to Scott from whence it came).

Lastly, I am trying to point out the risk in making up a list and presenting it as God's requirements. It is far safer to just note the examples of conversions as given in Acts. The risk is that other groups also have their own lists - some are shorter than Dr. Bill's list and some are longer. I have even seen the lists vary in length within the traditionalist churches of Christ.

What amazes me is the relunctance by Dr. Bill, you, and Concerned to acknowledge that it IS better to just stick to the scriptures than to make up a list based on one's own interpretations.

So stick to the subject - is the list from God or man? Dr. Bill has already answered that he, not God, compiled the list.

God bless

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)

Re: Not going after Donnie's tangent

January 13 2010, 12:23 PM 

No, Dr. Bill did not say that Christ commanded the list as such. Ray must learn not to twist other people's statements to suit his own personal agenda. All Dr. Bill did was to read the New Testament, identify Christ's teachings regarding salvation, and compile them in a nice little list so others could better know how to be saved. And since I am not familiar with the works of "Scott," then it is wrong for Ray to accuse me of not giving Scott "credit" for making the list. I am only familiar with the Bible, the New Testament of which contains everything on the list. There have been no additions or subtractions.

Ray keeps implying that he questions nothing that is actually ON the list, because everything on the list comes either directly from Christ or by Him through His apostles; Ray seems to object to the list as such.

So what is wrong with a list that contains the New Testament teachings of Christ and His apostles? As I said earlier, calling the written Word of God the "Holy Bible" is not found anywhere in the Bible. Yet the entire Christian world accepts that term without batting an eye. God does not explicitly refer to His Word as the "Holy Bible" or even "Bible"; those terms are man-made, yet they do NOT clash with Scripture anywhere. Moreover, the division of the "Bible" into chapters and verses is also man-made; God didn't do that. Neither does the list of Christ's requirements clash with anything in God's written word, because the list is based on the teachings of Christ. So if people will not accept what Christ requires for salvation because man conveniently sums it all up in a list, then people cannot use the term "Holy Bible" or "Bible," neither must they accept division of the "Bible" into chapters and verses, because they, too, are all man-made. The discerning will see that such reasoning is illogical, if not downright irrational.

As Donnie has asked Ray before, where does a Christian begin if a non-Christian asks about how to become a Christian? There must be a logical starting point with logical progression, or the non-Christian will not understand. The starting point is to deliver the Gospel to the non-Christian so that he can have the opportunity to believe on Christ. And if he believes, then he will repent, and if he repents, he will confess Christ as Lord, and if he confesses Christ, then he will go on to be baptized for remission of sins. And if he is baptized, he becomes a new Christian. Then to remain a Christian, he must walk the strait and narrow path of obedience unto Christ for the rest of his life. That means he must follow all the remaining teachings of Christ as laid out in the New Testament. Will he stumble at times? Yes. Can he be forgiven? Yes, if he so repents, asks in faith for forgiveness, and strives to continue to obey Christ faithfully.

So people can keep denying the list just because it is compiled by man. That doesn't nullify any of Christ's teachings on the list.

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