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Instrumental Use Is Great

May 8 2010 at 1:29 PM
Geadneym  (no login)
from IP address

Psalm 98

1 Sing to the LORD a new song,
for he has done marvelous things;
his right hand and his holy arm
have worked salvation for him.
2 The LORD has made his salvation known
and revealed his righteousness to the nations.

3 He has remembered his love
and his faithfulness to the house of Israel;
all the ends of the earth have seen
the salvation of our God.

4 Shout for joy to the LORD, all the earth,
burst into jubilant song with music;

5 make music to the LORD with the harp,
with the harp and the sound of singing,

6 with trumpets and the blast of the ram's horn
shout for joy before the LORD, the King.

7 Let the sea resound, and everything in it,
the world, and all who live in it.

8 Let the rivers clap their hands,
Let the mountains sing together for joy; 9 let them sing before the LORD,
for he comes to judge the earth.
He will judge the world in righteousness
and the peoples with equity.

Psalm 33:1-3

1 Sing joyfully to the LORD, you righteous;
it is fitting for the upright to praise him.

2 Praise the LORD with the harp;
make music to him on the ten-stringed lyre.

3 Sing to him a new song;
play skillfully, and shout for joy.

Psalm 149

1 Praise the LORD.
Sing to the LORD a new song,
his praise in the assembly of the saints.

2 Let Israel rejoice in their Maker;
let the people of Zion be glad in their King.

3 Let them praise his name with dancing
and make music to him with tambourine and harp.

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Ken Sublett
(no login)

Yes: I knew it from the beginning.

May 8 2010, 5:08 PM 

[linked image]

That's what I told you about David: Psalm 149 has David lusting to get "god" in his bed. You understand that to David, god was not Jehovah but probably some one of the STARRY HOSTS. A star, in this parable can be a musical performer who gets all of the credit.

The whole of the telling of GANYMEDE's story, the mortal boy whose beauty excited the desire of the Greek God ZEUS,

is akin to that of the daughters of memory, the MUSES,
connecting not only the souls of the lovers to each other,
united in their bodies and their minds,
but also to the fact that the goddesses and gods
themselves are embodied in the forces of life itself.

GANYMEDE stands for anybody who, like his Two-Spirit native brother, the coupan of the sub-Arctic Konyagas, stands "drinking in the light of the moon, the stars, absorbing all its brilliance and splendors to become a man of god."

It is also why the physical and emotional rapture of sex has played a vital role in religion, magic, mysticism, occultism, symbolism and the whole range of human dealings with the supernatural.

Far from the preaching of the puerile and puritanically minded who would believe that sex for any purpose other than reproduction is sinful and demonic,

"this experience, or at least an approach to it, is the ultimate aim of all religion, the ultimate reference of all myth and rite." It is the solvent of isolation, a means of moving beyond the normal bounds of human consciousness to touch into cosmic forces, and thereby unite with the whole of life.

Yes indeed, Ganymede's (carries the lyre of hermes or logos) thighs do set the divine light of ZEUS afire and, in the deliverance, GANYMEDE becomes the cupbearer of the gods.

I noted in Tulsa Workshop 2011 where they are going to UNCHAIN something:

Plut. Rom. 9 Herodorus Ponticus relates that Hercules also was glad to see a vulture present itself when he was upon an exploit. [6] For it is the least harmful of all creatures, injures no grain, fruit-tree, or cattle, and lives on carrion. But it does not kill or maltreat anything that has life, and as for birds, it will not touch them even when they are dead, since they are of its own species.
But eagles, owls, and hawks smite their own kind when alive, and kill them.
And yet, in the words of Aeschylus:5 How shall a bird that preys on fellow bird be clean?

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Author: Ganymede Defined

May 8 2010, 7:24 PM 

-- Ganymede most often refers to: Ganymede (mythology), Trojan prince in Greek mythology

-- Ganymede (moon), Jupiter's largest moon, named after the mythological character Ganymede, Ganymed or Ganymedes

-- Ganymede is the largest moon of Jupiter, and also the largest in the Solar System

-- Ganymede, the man, the myth, the enslaved cupbearer to Zeus

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)

Re: Author: Ganymede Defined

May 8 2010, 8:39 PM 

So I wonder why the author of this thread chose to scramble Ganymede as his alias. Recently there was a question about Ganymede on the TV show "Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader?" The question was "What is the name of the largest moon in our solar system?" The answer, of course, was Ganymede. The contestant, however, had no clue. Just thought I'd pass along that bit of information. happy.gif

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Loving Instrumental Music

May 9 2010, 2:37 AM 

Dr. Bill,

This person admires you greatly -- the same one who scrambled your name. Does "Plcbml Riu" ring a bell? Same one!!! happy.gif

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)

Re: Loving Instrumental Music

May 9 2010, 11:04 AM 

Yes, "Plcbml Riu" looks quite familiar. Sometimes when he posted, he created (or attempted to create) different anagrams of my name; for example, "Pcmbll Riu." Another time, however, he left out an "l" and came up with "Pcmbl Riu," which failed.

An old adage says, "Mimicry is the highest form of flattery." So I guess that creating all sorts of anagrams of a person's name would qualify as one form of mimicry. I am indeed flattered. happy.gif

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Instrumental Use Is Great: I Know, I Know

May 9 2010, 3:00 AM 

The original post does not have a premise.

The passages quoted list only the following musical instruments:

-- harp
-- trumpets
-- tambourine
-- ram's horn
-- ten-stringed lyre
-- [PLUS dancing, of course]

Ganymede should have listed more:

-- tabret
-- cornet
-- viol
-- flute
-- cymbal
-- psaltery
-- timbrel
-- dulcimer
-- sackbut

Daniel 3 lists a number of these instruments:

[5] That at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king hath set up:

[7] Therefore at that time, when all the people heard the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and all kinds of musick, all the people, the nations, and the languages, fell down and worshipped the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up.

[10] Thou, O king, hast made a decree, that every man that shall hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, shall fall down and worship the golden image:

[15] Now if ye be ready that at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the image which I have made; well: but if ye worship not, ye shall be cast the same hour into the midst of a burning fiery furnace; and who is that God that shall deliver you out of my hands?

Question: Who ORDAINED musical instruments:

______ (a) Moses
______ (b) God
______ (c) David the musician
______ (d) Christ
______ (e) The apostles

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(no login)

Throw The Psalms Out?

May 9 2010, 2:30 PM 

Guess when the book of Psalms contradicts your denominational belief system, the response seen here is to black marker said passages.

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Throw the Psalms out? No, Of course, not.

May 9 2010, 8:40 PM 

No. Of course, not. But the book of Psalms is not a belief system. So, it does not contradict any belief system. Simply put, it has its own place in the literary and history as a book in the Bible. It cannot be discarded any more than the books of Proverbs, Job, Song of Solomon, the Chronicles and others.

If you have researched the answer to the question posed earlier, please let us know what you've found out. The Bible has revealed as to who ORDAINED musical instruments. There is only one correct answer to the question.

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Bible vs mythology

May 10 2010, 10:07 AM 

I find it very revealing that the one who believes God loves instrumental music uses God's inspired and authorized Word to support their belief. The one who condemns instrumental music relies on pagan, godless mythology to support their belief.

In answer to the question, what does God's word say?

"Hezekiah then stationed the Levites in the house of the LORD with cymbals, with harps and with lyres, according to the command of David and of Gad the king's seer, and of Nathan the prophet; for the command was from the LORD through His prophets." (2 Chronicles 29:25)

31 Psalms either include instruments in their inpired title (and according to Barnes, ALL ancient Hebrew manuscripts include the titles of the Psalms) or within their inspired texts.

You may disagree over whether instrumental music should continue in the New Testament worship or not, but you cannot deny the above Word of God (unless, of course, you live by mythology rather than God's word).

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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: Bible vs mythology

May 10 2010, 12:16 PM 

God's Word says, "And if [any] mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe" (Exodus 21:23-25 KJV). A lot of people live by those words.

Yet Jesus said, "Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you" (Matt. 5:43-44 KJV).

So which directive are people to follow: God's directive in Exodus, in which you basically repay your enemy with the same evil that he does to you, or do you follow Jesus' directive in the New Testament, which tells us to repay our enemies with good?

God's Word in Chronicles and Psalms mention musical instruments, whereas in the New Testament, God's Word mentions nothing about them in Christian worship on earth. And we are further told NOT to add to or take from God's Word. The principles stated in Rev. 22:18-19 apply not only to Revelation but to ALL of the New Testament as well.

The religious rituals mentioned in the Chronicles and Psalms all fall under the Law of Moses, which Christians today are not to observe (Col. 2:14). So instead of asking if we live by mythology, ask which Covenant or Law Christians are to observe: the Law of Moses or the Law of Christ (Romans 8:2).

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Or you can call me YOP

May 10 2010, 4:04 PM 

Anyone who uses the sin tainted theory of 'if we praise God today with musical instruments based on the Old Testament, then we have to offer animal sacrifices' will continue to spit in our Lord's Face. Why? Because that person believes that Jesus Christ is not a good enough sacrifice to cover man's sins. They are saying that one goes with the other (if you accept insturmental music from the OT then you have to accept animal sacrifices). That is a lie. What does the New Testament say about David?
Acts 13
22After removing Saul, he made David their king. He testified concerning him: 'I have found David son of Jesse a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.'

David wanted to please God with all of his talents and ability. Did God ever criticize David for playing musical instruments? No. God let David know when he had sinned with adultery and murder. Did God do the same for when David used the instruments of music to praise Him? No!
Would God have allowed those praises, in Psalms, if He were displeased with David?
Again, no.

If you throw out the Psalms and ASSUME that God didn't authorize insturmental musical, then you make vain all of the Old Testament.
EVERYONE KNOWS that all of the animal sacrifices were done away when Jesus came to be the Perfect Sacrifice. The same CANNOT be said for the use of instrumental music in the Old Testament. That is someone trying to hold on to a tradition so bad and so hard that they would warp and distort the very Word of God.
It is a pathetic attempt, indeed, at holding on to any tradition. God does not and has not made instrumental music sinful in either the Old or New Testament. Only man has done so. That is called adding to the Word of God, and he/she will be held accountable in the end for such.

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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: Or you can call me YOP

May 10 2010, 8:55 PM 

When Christ died, He took all of the religious rituals of the Mosaic Law with Him to the cross--not some of them to appease future Christians who wanted to retain instrumental music--but ALL of them. Otherwise, we would still be observing hundreds of other laws in the Mosaic system. You cannot choose to retain observances that were part of the Mosaic system, such as instrumental music, and carry them into Christianity without observing ALL of the Mosaic Law. I will reiterate what Paul said in Gal. 5:1-6: being justified by any part of the Mosaic Law makes a person a debtor to observe ALL of the Mosaic Law and, hence, makes Christ of no effect. What Paul is saying is that you can't serve two Covenants: the Law of Moses and the Law of Christ. You can't select IM from the Mosaic Law and mix it with the Law of Christ, just as you can't select burnt offerings from the Mosaic Law and mix them with the Law of Christ. It's similar to Jesus' admonition that you can't serve two masters: God and mammon. Choose which ONE Covenant you will serve and drop the other one.

I've said before that debating religious topics is absolutely futile, because people are going to do exactly what they wish, regardless of what the New Testament teaches. It teaches us to sing and make melody in our hearts (Eph. 5:19; Col. 3:16). Since we are commanded not to add to or take from the Word of God (Rev. 22:18-19), then we cannot add what God has not commanded, regarding worship doctrine. Music is definitely a part of worship doctrine, because God through Paul DOES address the KIND of music to have, which is VOCAL music. Just leave it at that. And don't even begin to argue about PA systems, because God doesn't address them or other non-essentials in the Church. Such non-essentials as PA systems, kitchens, toilets, and podiums, for example, in no way interfere with the explicit worship doctrine that He has commanded.

Now if you want to waste your time trying to circumvent the New Testament with "God didn't say not to" and other man-made, unscriptural excuses to do whatever pleases you in worship, that's your prerogative. But it won't wash.

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Re: Bible vs mythology

May 10 2010, 4:15 PM 

Dr. Crump,

I appreciate your response. However, you do realize that your position is at odds with the mythology that Ken endorses and Donnie appears to agree with, and contend that God has NEVER authorized instrumental music.

I am sure you agree with the accredited Biblical scholars, including those who oppose use of intrumental music in the church today, who have concluded based on evidence in God's word itself that God did authorize instrumental music in the Old Testament, and God did inspire Psalms that could be sung with instrumental music, and endorsed praise to God with instrumental music.

I suspect from your reply that you do not believe God has authorized instrumentla music in the New Testament worship. But my point is that Ken and Donnie have gone beyond what is written in God's Word when they claim, contrary to the written evidence in God's Word, that God has not authorized instrumental music anywhere. And they use mythology to support their beliefs rather than using God's word.

If you support Ken and Donnie in this obvious error, what other errors and misuse of God's word are you willing to accept?

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Bible vs mythology

May 10 2010, 11:58 PM 


Show me just one verse in the Bible (Old or New Testament) stating that God ever authorized instrumental music as you claim. And who are/were these "accredited" biblical scholars who have "concluded based on evidence in God's word" [wonder where that might be in the Old Testament].

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Re: Bible vs mythology

May 11 2010, 7:39 AM 

Donnie - I already have quoted God where He has already given you not just one but over 30 scriptures from His Holy Word where He commanded or inspired the psalmists to endorse instrumentsd to praise Him:

"Hezekiah then stationed the Levites in the house of the LORD with cymbals, with harps and with lyres, according to the command of David and of Gad the king's seer, and of Nathan the prophet; for the command was from the LORD through His prophets." (2 Chronicles 29:25)

Thirty-one Psalms either endorse the use of instruments in their inspired title (titles which are included in the ancient Hebrew manuscripts) or endorse the use of instruments within their inspired texts.

Many, such as Dr. Crump, may think that God's Old Testament comamnd and endorsement of instrumental music does not apply to the New Testament Church today. But God DID command and endorse their use in the Old Testament, and to deny this is to deny the very words and inspiration of God, and to embrace the mnythological teachings of Ken.

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Bible vs mythology

May 11 2010, 12:38 AM 


I think you should research II Chron. 29:25 more. Why do you think that the passage would state:

(1) "according to the commandment of David";
(2) "and Nathan the prophet: for so was the commandment of the LORD by his prophets"?

If both expressions were references to the same commandment, why would it be necessary to even mention "the commandment of David"?

In other words, you should not confuse the "commandment of David" with the "commandment of the Lord."

In the following verse 26, notice that "the Levites stood with [not played] the instruments of David [not God], and the priests with the trumpets."

Ray, if you read further, you will discover who ORDAINED musical instruments.

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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: Throw The Psalms Out?

May 9 2010, 10:00 PM 

When Christians desire instrumental music in worship, they usually turn to the Old Testament, the Psalms in particular, for "justification." They fixate ONLY on the passages that mention instrumental music and IGNORE passages such as the following:

"I will not reprove thee for thy sacrifices or thy burnt offerings, [to have been] continually before me" (Psalm 50:8 KJV).

"Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar" (Psalm 51:19 KJV).

"I will offer unto thee burnt sacrifices of fatlings, with the incense of rams; I will offer bullocks with goats. Selah" (Psalm 66:15 KJV).

"And let them sacrifice the sacrifices of thanksgiving, and declare his works with rejoicing" (Psalm 107:22).

All of those passages above from the Psalms mention burnt offerings and sacrifices. So if Christians use the Psalms to "justify" their worship, why choose only the instrument passages yet ignore the very important passages about burning sacrifices to God? Aren't BOTH important to God? Would God accept worship that featured instruments but did not include burnt offerings as well? If Christians use instruments but do not burn sacrifices, are they not "tossing out the Psalms"? The Psalms say to burn sacrifices to God as well as to praise Him with instruments.

The Law of Moses required burnt offerings and sacrifices, and the Psalms upheld the Law of Moses. So here's the real question: Are Christians still under the Law of Moses today? If so, then Christians must not only use instruments in worship (as mentioned in the Psalms), but they must do EVERYTHING else that the Law of Moses required, such as burning sacrifices.

But then we read in the New Testament that Christ nailed the whole Law of Moses to His cross (Col. 2:14). All the religious rituals such as instrumental music, sacrifices, dietary laws, and hundreds of other laws were nailed to the cross. Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses with the Law of Christ, meaning that the worship rituals and practices that were connected with the Law of Moses are not valid today in Christian worship.

Paul warned Christians against being justified by anything connected with the Law of Moses. He used mandatory circumcision as just one example:

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love" (Gal. 5:1-6 KJV).

If any Christian is justified by the rituals of the Law of Moses, he becomes a debtor to do the WHOLE Law of Moses; hence, he makes Christ of no effect and falls from grace.

The passages of Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16 are also quite familiar and instruct us to sing and make melody in our hearts.

The Psalms today are of historical value, but we certainly cannot justify Christian worship by the rituals found therein, because they are associated with the Law of Moses. Therefore, we cannot use the Psalms to justify instrumental music in worship.

Of course, this subject has been debated and debated, hashed and rehashed for centuries, yet those who want instrumental music in worship will have it anyway, regardless of what the New Testament teaches. Such Christians are not content to follow the simple principles in the New Testament and put the Law of Moses behind them.

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Ken Sublett
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The Mark on Ganymede

May 9 2010, 10:59 PM 

One major definition of BEAST is "a new style of song or drama." The word beast is not an animal but points to the HUNTING AFTER male youths even attributed to Nimrod. Another sign of the MARK is the one Zeus left on the rear of Ganymede. Those proof texts the instrumentalists use points to males plucking the harp and declaring that--as dogs--they only bit their friends.


Eph 2:1 AND you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past YE walked
according to the course of this world,

according to the prince of the power of the air,
the SPIRIT that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

They shout from the pulpits that they are not bound by the commands of Father or Son because A spirit tells them that all of the CONDEMNATION of hypocritic arts and crafts is NOW God's Direct Command. And you go to Tulsa and believe. You know, a lying wonder defines all of the things you love when you see the Great Demonstration calculated to joke while they steal your souls.

WORKS: the ONLY word for LEGALISM in the Greek literature is the MUSICAL teaching of the Laws of Apollo (Abaddon, Apollyon).

Nomos I. anything assigned, a usage, custom, law, ordinance,
II. a musical mode or strain, Aesch., Plat., etc.; nomoi kithardikoi.
2. a song sung in honour of some god, Hdt.; nomoi polemikoi war- tunes

The NOMOS of Athens was SOPHIA-ZOE which is opposed to the JEHOVAH-LOGOS.
The NOMOS of Sophia-Zoe encouraged love for young boys: maybe that is why all of the PROOFT texts for the plucking word points to older males collecting young males who were the youth ministers or priests of Cyble Paul warned about hoping they would let the knife slip.

[linked image]

Why do you suppose that people on the unlawful dole (more than teaching that which has been taught) get so nasty when they cannot find a jot or tittle to support them AFTER they have decided that they operate on the LAW OF SILENCE which means MAKE NOISE they think is music.

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Ken Sublett
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A Plague-Stopping EXORCISM is just the patternism for MOST.

May 10 2010, 9:53 PM 

"Hezekiah then stationed the Levites in the house of the LORD with cymbals, with harps and with lyres, according to the command of David and of Gad the king's seer, and of Nathan the prophet; for the command was from the LORD through His prophets." (2 Chronicles 29:25)

Hezekiah was a KING and the Levites were under the KING and the COMMANDERS OF THE ARMY.'"

The Levites were an old Infant Burning Cult from Egypt and their father in Isaiah 49 commanded you NOT to attend the "assemblies of the tribe of Levi."

Christ in the prophets DENY that animal sacrifices were commanded by God: they were IMPOSED because of musical idolatry which is perfectly clear to any reader of the context.

The 'congregation' is DEFINED as the Civil-Military-Priestly cult and they had been ABANDONED to worship the starry host ONLY within the walls of Jerusalem. The people were OUSTED by the loud sounds NEVER called music by God Who abandoned them.

The godly congregation was to attend Holy Convocation even as the church of Christ in the wilderness.
They were commanded to REST on the sabbath and not WORSHIP. They were restricted to their area and READ and REHEARSED the word of God. The church or synagogue is a SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE.

The CHURCH was commanded NOT to tolerate "vocal or instrumental rejoicing." That never changed by assuming any Bible authority before the Disciples in 1878 where they dredged up the PSALLO word which speaks of BOWS AND LYRES to shoot arrows or shoot "love arrows" into your friend.

If you read 2 Chronicles 29 you will read CLEARLY

1. The Levites were command to stand IN RANKS with their instruments. They were not commanded to PLAY.
"Hezekiah then STATIONED the Levites in the house of the LORD with cymbals, with harps and with lyres, according to the command of David and of Gad the king's seer, and of Nathan the prophet; for the command was from the LORD through His prophets." (2 Chronicles 29:25)PLAGUE STOPPING EXORCISM. NOT a congregational assembly.

2Chr. 29:26 And the Levites stood with the instruments of David,
and the priests with the trumpets. [Commanded by Moses A prophet]


2Chr. 29:27 And Hezekiah commanded
to offer the burnt offering upon the altar.
And when the burnt offering began,
....the song of the LORD began also with the TRUMPETS
....and with the INSTRUMENTS ORDAINED by David king of Israel.

Burning GOATS is not called a Congregational worship: God calls it PROFANING THE SABBATH which word translates blow the flute, steal another's inheritance, pollute or prostitute: it also defines "Lucifer cast as profane out of heaven."

No psalms were ever sung in congregational worship services with or without instruments.

Strong delusions prevents people FROM being able to read the Text: the MARK of Lying Wonders is singing and playing or performing as a speaker or actor: Jesus called the speakers, singers and instrument players in Ezekiel 33 HYPOCRITES.

There is NO congregational worship services in the Old Testament: the Godly people attended synagogue as a SCHOOL OF THE WORD. The Campbells being Bible readerd defined:

Church is A School of Christ
Worship is Reading and Musing the Word.

Music in fact means "to make the lambs dumb before the slaughter" and I say that both the WOLVES (boy lovers) and the Lambs are equally unable to read the text.

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