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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: A Plague-Stopping EXORCISM is just the patternism for MOST.

May 11 2010, 1:10 AM 

Ken,

So far this has been ignored -- the question I posed earlier.

Question: Who ORDAINED musical instruments?

______ (a) Moses
______ (b) God
______ (c) David the musician
______ (d) Christ
______ (e) The apostles

You didn't mean to give away the answer, did you?

Oops, but you just had to quote II Chronicles 29:27 ... I know.

"And Hezekiah commanded to offer the burnt offering upon the altar. And when
the burnt offering began, the song of the LORD began also with the trumpets,
and with the instruments ordained by David king of Israel."


Let me simplify it to the not-so-fast learners:

(1) Moses did not ordain musical instruments.
(2) God did not ordain musical instruments.
(3) Christ did not ordain musical instruments.
(4) The apostles did not ordain musical instruments.

You know that we wouldn't normally think of certain inventions during the
olden days. But guess what?

In fact, somebody got solemnly reproved by the prophet Amos. In Amos 6:1-6, we read:

"[1] Woe to them that are at ease in Zion, and trust in the mountain of Samaria, which are named chief of the nations, to whom the house of Israel came!
[2] Pass ye unto Calneh, and see; and from thence go ye to Hamath the great: then go down to Gath of the Philistines: be they better than these kingdoms? or their border greater than your border?
[3] Ye that put far away the evil day, and cause the seat of violence to come near;
[4] That lie upon beds of ivory, and stretch themselves upon their couches, and eat the lambs out of the flock, and the calves out of the midst of the stall;
[5] That chant to the sound of the viol, and invent to themselves instruments of music, like David;
[6] That drink wine in bowls, and anoint themselves with the chief ointments: but they are not grieved for the affliction of Joseph.


O David, David, David -- king of Israel, the musician and dancer, inventor, one who ordained musical instruments.

 
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Dave
(no login)
69.59.106.52

Oops You Did It Again

May 11 2010, 2:10 AM 

As you say, Donnie, OOPS!
You want authorization for instrumental music in the Word of God, but OOPS you can't show authorization for a PA system either. Sorry William Crump....even though you said not to bring it to the table.....I did!
Hope you understand William that trying to tell a Christian to stop speaking the Truth is simply not going to happen.
It's called a double standard. You need authorization for instrumental music, but not a PA system. your fallacy that you can't play a PA system like you can an instrument. Nobody is saying that you c
Yes Donnie, please do explain to us your fallacy that you can't play a PA system like you can an instrument. (Donnie, please refer to your own apples and oranges difference theory when you can't backup what you believe with the Word of God) Nobody is saying that you can play a PA system. Why aren't we debating this? Why is this a false premise? Because it DOES NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO with the subject at hand. Whether you can play a PA system or not.....GOD does NOT authorize a PA system any more than he does a piano.
Now draw up your bogus chart showing where your PA system is listed under AIDS, while the piano is listed under ADDITIONS. We still all know that a PA system could still go under additions, and the piano could go under AIDS. So the person who conjures up this chart is showing nothing more than his personal bias.
The biggie here gents is this......our examples are of singing, in the New Testament. If we play an instrument while we sing, are we prohibiting the singing? No! Can the music compliment the voice if it is not overpowering? Yes!
You say that we are adding something when we play music?
You don't whine about adding something when we use a car, or the internet, or other media outlets, or a train, or plane to GO, and teach the lost. The only examples of how they WENT in the first century is by boat and foot. When we use anything else other than the examples of a boat and by foot, then by your theory, we are adding to the Word of God. You take it upon yourself to say that instrumental music is an addition where using a car or the internet to reach the lost is not. How convenient for your tradition......it just doesn't nor will ever work that way.
I still love showing how immature you men are when it comes to your reasoning about God being against instrumental music. As long as our man Donnie ALLOWS it, you will always be shown that you are wrong.
Donnie, you know how to put a stop to this once and for all. Just not allow me to post. That would solve everything.
You have the POWER to ban me! You can QUELL the Truth........or can you?
happy.gif
Simple truth is that MAN makes instrumental music sinful......not God!
Simple truth is that MAN can't rewrite the Word of God and is NOT allowed to make instrumental music a sin.

 
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Ken Sublett
(no login)
67.142.130.40

Play on yo harp, lil David: dance naked with the girls: worship the starry host: gyrate.

May 11 2010, 10:17 AM 

Is it possible to be a Christian without knowing the difference between a disciple and a ceremonial legalist stroking your own pleasure centers? Don't think so.

Is it possible to be a disciple without knowing the difference between an ekklesia--synagogue in a sanitary safe place, and the Agora or marketplace where all of the hypocrites (Jesus named speakers, singers, instrument players) sell their merchandise and the parasite-instrumentalists play--meaning musically and sexually? Don't think so.

Could a literate person have sex with HIS wife in HIS bed and NOT be a hypocrite if he refused to have the VIRTUAL sexuality marked by singing, clapping, moving in symphony with the leader, with or without instruments? Probably not for those who know what is a church, Christian and worship which is defined UNIQUELY as "giving heed to the Words of Christ" (meaning Spirit, that which is written including Psalms (only 50 of those and not with instruments, Hymns (inspired prayers) and Spiritual songs meaning inspired by Christ the ONLY Spirit.

So, the comparisons even the PhDuhs use PROVES that they do not understand that Christianity is "a school of the Words of God (only) and are still arcahic-primitives grunting around the tribal prophesier ALWAYS marked as emotinally and sexually deviant.

In later times, Celtic bardes (poets) were particularly renowned for their powers. They appeared as the young gay men who gathered round and who were successors to the high-ranking pagan priests. And these gay priests, with their magical operations, were themselves often inseparable from the gender-benders who came before, the medicine-men and horned shamans, freely mixing sexuality with the supernatural in their rites. In Ireland, continuing down to the 17th century, it was common for the king or chieftain to turn to the bardes, whose duty it was, just like the Horned Gods or his Two-Spirit native brothers, to mediate the mysterious powers of life.

The Great Mother in Revelation 17 uses the lusted after FRUITS as erotic preachers (the high priced ones--never walk the streets or work), singers and instrument player John called SORCERERS.

Put simply, Gaia is the root from which we derive the word gay. And like the FAIRIES, the Great Mother Gaia's children possessed the remembrance of the paradisiacal higher state.

Our present day moniker of "gay" is in this way traced far back into the fog, and it is a distinct name well chosen for a unique branch of humankind.

The human beings who were the Children of Gaiety were very much transformed over time, into, for example, the one-eyed Cyclops or the enormous half-man, half-snake Typhon. Yet they are quite traceable, and they are very much a human lot.


Joseph Campbell notes that when the preachers lose their faith they "crack away to the archaic" such as the Peyote Cult of the American Indians. Therefore, when they boast about "a new style of music or drama" they are confessing to be the BEAST PEOPLE (Zoe). When a group cracks away from SPEAK or SAY to RETHORIC OR SINGY-SPEAKING and music, they are a product of the Old or "serpent brain" and therefore it is IMPOSSIBLE for words to rise any higher in the brain and the can't tell the difference between SEX IN BED and SEX claiming to force the "spirits to come." It's sad: but you remember that the Book of Enoch and all ancient thought proves that when you reach that climax level of musical arrousal, you have fallen and can never get up. THAT'S why Christ left us an example (written) so that we can rest our faith on His Words and not on our "imagination which is evil continually." That is what Paul outlawed in Romans 14.

 
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Dave
(no login)
69.59.106.52

Is it Possible?

May 11 2010, 12:11 PM 

Is it possible to be any sicker in the head than you are, Ken Sublett?
I don't think so.
Your mind is so perverted towards sex, you can't think of anything else.
Seek help!

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Wrong question

May 11 2010, 4:29 PM 

Dave,

Question your own mind or that question should be redirected to you. Ken has done research on musical idolatry exhaustively; you haven't. There's a colossal difference there between:

(a) Someone telling facts about the music industry from ages past and in our culture and all the activities associated with it--idolatry and other perversions...

------------- and -------------

(b) Someone accusing another of being perverted for explaining the truth about music-related perversions.

Besides, what are you going to do now with the various authors of books in the Bible where numerous instances of idolatry, adultery, murder, theft and any other perversion have been recorded?

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
68.19.197.78

Following Two Covenants

May 11 2010, 2:00 PM 

Since many Christians fixate on the Old Testament (for example, David, Second Chronicles, and the Psalms) to justify using instrumental music in Christian worship, then we must conclude that they believe Christians can follow two Covenants--the Law of Moses AND the Law of Christ. It amounts to picking what they desire from each Covenant, discarding what is inconvenient or what they dislike from each Covenant, and calling that "Christianity." Such people will proclaim that they are absolutely "Christians" through and through and will vehemently deny that they follow the Law of Moses--just pits and pieces of it that satisfy what they want (like instruments) but what the New Testament doesn't teach.

Now if Christians can follow two Covenants, then they can follow God AND mammon, because the principle is the same--following two opposite or conflicting concepts. For example, the Law of Moses said to love your neighbor and hate your enemies; the Law of Christ said to love your neighbor AND your enemies. Those are conflicting concepts: the one says to love some and hate others; the other says to love everyone.

As it turns out, Jesus said, "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon" (Matt. 6:24 KJV). The same principle applies to Covenants. You cannot serve two Covenants, just like you cannot serve God and mammon.

But people will do as they please.

 
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Jimmy Wren
(no login)
199.227.205.202

Consider 2 Chron. 29:25, 26

May 11 2010, 6:42 PM 

2 Chron 29:25-26

25 The king ordered the Levites to take their places in The Temple of God with their musical instruments cymbals, harps, zithers following the original instructions of David, Gad the king's seer, and Nathan the prophet; this was God's command conveyed by his prophets. 26 The Levites formed the orchestra of David, while the priests took up the trumpets.
(from THE MESSAGE: The Bible in Contemporary Language © 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson. All rights reserved.)

I don't believe anyone can rightfully say that God commanded an orchestra of David be used in a worship service even back then!







 
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Jimmy Wren
(no login)
199.227.205.202

IM

May 11 2010, 7:51 PM 

One can read 1 Chron. 5:16 to find where David gave such a command as recorded in 2 Chron 29:25.

1 Chron 15:16-17

16 David also commanded the chiefs of the Levites to appoint their brothers as the singers who should play loudly on musical instruments, on harps and lyres and cymbals, to raise sounds of joy. 17 So the Levites appointed...(ESV)

I don't understand the IM to be God's command at all!

 
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Ray
(no login)
75.53.153.53

Even John Waddey disagrees

May 11 2010, 8:58 PM 

Even Donnie's other hero, John Waddey, disagrees with Donnie's and Ken's false teachings

"Objection: Instrumental music was authorized under the Old Testament, why not now? We agree that it was acceptable then, but remind you that we are not under the Old Covenant. "

God authorized instrumental music. God found instrumental music acceptable. God inspired Bible writers to endorse praises to God with instrumental music. God filled HIs temple with His glory while instrumental music was being played.

Ou may disagree on whether we can use instrumental music in Christian worship, but to teach that God did not authorize, accept, endorse, and fill a building filled with instrumental music with His glory is to deny God's word.


 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Authorized!!! By whom?

May 11 2010, 10:11 PM 

Ray,

You're really imaginative: command, authorize, endorse, accept!!! How did you come up with those verbs in reference to God and associating Him with musical objects?

I've searched for "authorize(d)" in the Bible -- did not find it used in any manner.

"Authority" -- it's in the Bible but not in reference to lifeless, inanimate musical objects called instruments. Much less God's authority in regard to musical objects?

"Accept" -- now, that's beyond comprehension to suggest what God did not command or authorize.

"Endorse" -- as in a commercial or a political candidate?

If you look further in II Chron. 29, verse 27 indicates that it was David, king of Israel, the skilled musician, dancer, inventor of IM [Amos 6:5] -- who ORDAINED musical instruments.

How long will it be before you're going to say that God invented musical instruments as David, the inventor of musical instruments, did?

"Woe to them ... that chant to the sound of the viol, and invent to themselves instruments of music, like David." (Amos 6:5)

 
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Ray
(no login)
146.23.68.42

Donnie abuses Amos

May 12 2010, 8:17 AM 

I was just waiting for someone to abuse God's Word spoken to Amos. Donnie did not let me down.

LOOK with your blind eyes at the context of Amos. Is it instruments God is condeming or something else (it would seem awkward for God to endorse instrumental music throughout the entire Old testament, then condemn those who followed His inspration).

Amos doesn't state that it is sinful to play instruments, even in a non-worship setting which is the context of Amos 6. If your blind eyes really think that is what Amos was saying, then you are also saying it is sinful to eat veal, lamb, and lay down on a couch! You abuse the word of God for your own sinful false teachings!

No, it's not instrumental music (or eating veal or lamb, or laying down on a couch) that Amos is condemning, but the indulgence: "Woe to you who are complacent...your feasting and lounging will end". In the prior oracle in chapter 5, Amos condemns the hypocrisy of a people who come to God to worship, yet their hearts are evil (sort of like those who claim to be Christians, yet rely on mythology to condemn other Christians): "You who turn justice into bitterness and cast righteousness to the ground...You trample on the poor...You oppress the righteous...let justice roll on like a river, righteousness like a never-failing stream."

Donnie, you are proving that you know neither inspired words of God nor the message that God communicates to us. Abandon the mythology of Ken, and follow and believe only what God says.

 
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Ray
(no login)
75.53.153.53

RE: Consider 2 Chron. 29:25, 26

May 11 2010, 8:51 PM 

Jimmy - read what you posted yourself with your own eyes!!

2 Chron 29:25-26

25 The king ordered the Levites to take their places in The Temple of God with their musical instruments cymbals, harps, zithers following the original instructions of David, Gad the king's seer, and Nathan the prophet; this was God's command conveyed by his prophets. 26 The Levites formed the orchestra of David, while the priests took up the trumpets.
(from THE MESSAGE: The Bible in Contemporary Language © 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson. All rights reserved.)


Your own quote from scripture says it exactly: THIS WAS GOD'S COMMAND !!! God's command was conveyed by HIS prophets !!!

I don't believe anyone can rightfully say that God did not command this! One has to either totally ignore God's inspired words, or blatantly dismiss God's inspired words with uninspired human arguments - uninspired human arguments that are not even logical!

How long will you continue to follow Ken instead of following God's inspired words?

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Missing the crucial point

May 11 2010, 10:31 PM 

Ray,

You missed Jimmy's very significant point completely. It contrasts your notion that whatever David ordered or commanded God also ordered or commanded.

You're essentially saying that "the orchestra of David" is "the orchestra of God." God's orchestra!!! Wow!!!

I think you should look at other translations for "the command of God" and commentaries that distinguish "the command of God" from "the command" of any man.

In another post, Jimmy quoted from I Chron. 15:

"16 David also commanded the chiefs of the Levites to appoint their brothers as the singers who should play loudly on musical instruments, on harps and lyres and cymbals, to raise sounds of joy. 17 So the Levites appointed.... (ESV)

Only the finite mind would further translate the passage above into something like: "God commanded ... the singers who should play loudly on musical instruments." Would you come to that conclusion, Ray?

 
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Ray
(no login)
146.23.68.42

Believe - don't explain away

May 12 2010, 7:57 AM 

You are missing the Biblical point, Donnie in pursuit of your false teaching and your support for your mentors. Just believe what the scriptures say and quit trying to explain away what the scriptures plainly teach: In the Old Testament God commanded instrumental music. God was pleased with instrumental music. God's glory filled the temple when instrumental music was present. God inspired instrumental music. God inspired the Old Testemant writers to endorse praise to God with instrumental music.

You might decide to be blind to the inspired Words of God. The rest of choose to see what God is plainly teaching. We will not be led from the paths of the truth of God's word by blind guides or mythology.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
70.157.38.217

Why Stop at 2 Chron. 29:25-26?

May 11 2010, 10:34 PM 

Continue with 2 Chron. 29:27-28: "And Hezekiah commanded to offer the burnt offering upon the altar. And when the burnt offering began, the song of the LORD began [also] with the trumpets, and with the instruments [ordained] by David king of Israel. And all the congregation worshipped, and the singers sang, and the trumpeters sounded: [and] all [this continued] until the burnt offering was finished." (KJV).

The instruments were used to accompany the burnt offerings and sacrifices. So why do Christians today still use musical instruments that were originally designed to accompany sacrificial offerings, yet they don't offer burnt sacrifices that God had also commanded? Oh, they explain that the burnt sacrifices are no longer necessary, because of Christ's sacrifice on the cross. So if Christ's death was the ultimate sacrifice, why continue with mechanical musical instruments that were originally associated with burnt offerings? Since we know that Christ abolished any further need for burnt offerings when He died on the cross (Col. 2:14), is there any Scripture anywhere in the Bible that says the IM is to be carried over into the New Covenant of Christianity? Or perhaps that is an assumption on the part of man to carry IM into Christianity. Any way you look at it, there is NO Scripture anywhere in the Bible that gives permission to carry over into Christianity the IM that was associated with the rituals of the Law of Moses. The music that is to be used to worship God today is to come from singing and making melody in our hearts, not with musical instruments (Eph. 5:19; Col. 3:16).

 
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Geadneym
(no login)
72.94.169.189

From NT to OT

May 12 2010, 6:51 AM 

EPHESIANS 5:19

Speak to one another with PSALMS, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord

PSALM 150

1Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.

2Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.

3Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.

4Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.

5Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.

6Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.241.153.246

Re: From NT to OT

May 12 2010, 10:28 AM 

As I asked before, where is the specific Scripture that gives permission to carry IM from the Old Covenant into Christian worship in the New Covenant? We don't observe the burnt offerings and the many other religious rituals from the Old Testament, so why should we be selective and observe ONLY the IM from the Old Testament?

 
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Philip
(no login)
98.23.101.97

Old law

May 12 2010, 10:58 AM 

I guess Ken and Donnie would be quick to condemn all who continue to keep any of the old law, since it is no longer in effect. Sure would be news to Paul, and the early Jewish Christians. The thing Paul condemned was the enforcement of it on those who never were part of the Old covenant. Those who wished to continue with for instance keeping the passover or other feasts or the rite of circumcision were free to do so. God didnt ask David to build the temple, but God's presence still filled it. I try to listen to the inspired writers and God's word and wish Ken, Donnie and others would too. peace
philip

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.241.153.246

Re: Old law

May 12 2010, 12:03 PM 

Paul said that those who were justified by the Old Law were debtors to keep ALL of the Old Law, and he used mandatory circumcision as one example (Gal. 5:1-6). If someone was not a Jew and was not under the Old Law, then there was no need for him to observe any of the Jewish rituals, such as the Passover. The same applies to IM, which was used in Old Testament Jewish religious rituals, such as burning sacrifices in the Temple. Since Christians are not under the Law of Moses, then nothing connected with those rituals, such as IM, applies to Christians today. Once again, and in light of Gal. 5:1-6, where is the Scripture that explicitly gives Christians permission to select whatever ritual or item from the Old Law that pleases them (IM, for instance) and carry it into Christian worship, then discard everything else related to the Old Law? Where is that Scripture?

 
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Philip
(no login)
98.23.101.97

old law

May 13 2010, 12:35 PM 

Look again at Romans 14. If you think one day is more important than another, Paul says its ok. Who are we to judge a servant of God. Pretty clear. Of course i am sure we will have to dis-apply Paul's words here. Our history shows we are experts at choosing which ones to choose and where to apply them.

 
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There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
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Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

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The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

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