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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: old law

May 13 2010, 5:32 PM 

This thread is about IM in worship. But if you want to change tracks and talk about observing certain days over others, Paul said:

"But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain" (Gal. 4:9-11 KJV).

When Paul mentions being in bondage again, he is talking about observing the rites and rituals and feast days of the Old Law, the Law of Moses. There is only ONE day that is special, and that is the first day of the week or Sunday.

So which Christians on this board continue to observe the rituals of the Law of Moses besides IM? Who as Christians still observe such feast days as the Passover and the Feast of Tabernacles? They are all unnecessary, because Christ nailed the Law of Moses to His cross (Col. 2:14).

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Ken Sublett
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At the SOUNDS God SHUT OFF access to Him and His Mercy

May 12 2010, 12:29 PM 

I guess Ken and Donnie would be quick to condemn all who continue to keep any of the old law, since it is no longer in effect. Sure would be news to Paul, and the early Jewish Christians. The thing Paul condemned was the enforcement of it on those who never were part of the Old covenant. Those who wished to continue with for instance keeping the passover or other feasts or the rite of circumcision were free to do so. God didnt ask David to build the temple, but God's presence still filled it. I try to listen to the inspired writers and God's word and wish Ken, Donnie and others would too. peace

Rather than kill David God gave him a place for a TENT but Solomon went up on Moriah to build God a HOUSE: but, god does not live in houser or is he worshipped in houses. This was an affront to God Who through Abraham had ALREADY PROVIDED His only sacrifice.

There was no "singing with instrumental accompaniment": the SINGERS made ONE SOUND which is:

6963. qowl, kole; kole; from an unused root meaning to call aloud; a voice or sound, aloud, bleating, crackling, cry (+ out), fame, lightness, lowing, noise, + hold peace, (pro-) claim, proclamation, + sing, sound, + spark, thunder(-ing), voice, + yell

When the Levites "prophesied" they are called SOOTHSAYERS.

6049. anan, aw-nan´; a primitive root; to cover; used only as a denominative from 6051, to cloud over; figuratively, to act covertly, i.e. practise magic: bring, enchanter, Meonemin, observe(-r of) times, soothsayer, sorcerer.


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Ezek. 30:18 At Tehaphnehes also the day shall be darkened, when I shall break there the yokes of Egypt: and the pomp of her strength shall cease in her: as for her, a cloud shall cover her, and her daughters shall go into captivity.
Ezek. 30:19 Thus will I execute judgments in Egypt: and they shall know that I am the LORD.

The Ark as the symbol of God's presence was open for all to see in David's tent. However, the MUSIC was a signal for God to CUT OFF access to His presence, His grace and His Word. A singer or musician who thereafter went into a COVERED space such as the Holy Place (type of church) was to be executed.

The Veil (Vail) which cut off access to God, His mercy and His Word is the Hebrew:

6531. perek, peh´-rek; from an unused root meaning to break apart; fracture, i.e. severity: cruelty, rigour.
6532. poreketh, po-reh´-keth; feminine active participle of the same as 6531; a separatrix, i.e. (the sacred) screen:--vail.

We know that the Levites, the names of their instruments, the style of their performance and dress was the EFFEMINATE dress of Dionysus where males could be the "musical worship team" but they had to be effeminate as Paul hoped that the concision would let the knift slip and castrate themselves. This was the MARK of God CUTTING OFF ACCESS to His presence: the Priests COULD NOT SERVE when this HEAVINESS occupied the building.

I would guess that the church is filled with SMOKE which speaks of the NEW WINESKINS diviners or sorcerers.

Rev. 15:8 And the temple was filled with
smoke from the glory of God [heaviness], and from his power;
and no man was able to enter into the temple,
till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

2586. kapnos, kap-nos´; of uncertain affinity; smoke: -- smoke.
Kapn-eios (sc. ampelos), hê, vine. A. with smokecoloured grapes.

To Corrupt the Word selling stuff:

2585. kapeleuo, kap-ale-yoo´-o; from kapelos (a huckster); to retail, i.e. (by implication) to adulterate (figuratively): corrupt.

kapno-mantis , eôs, ho, smoke-diviner,

Mantis [mainomai] The MAD women of Corinth.

I. one who divines, a seer, prophet, Hom., etc.:--as fem. a prophetess, Trag., Thuc.
2. metaph. a diviner, foreboder, Soph.
II. a kind of grasshopper, [locusts]

No, in the words of the NACC and their dupes, this was not God virtually having an orgasm of delight which is the stated Purpose Driving the musical worship teams ABLE to lead you into the presence of God.

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(no login)

Re: Old law

May 12 2010, 5:02 PM 

Dr. Bill.

Read Ephesians 5:19 over and over again. It says PSALMS. PSALMS imply instrumental usage. It is the very nature of PSALM.

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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: Old law

May 12 2010, 5:39 PM 

It is man's assumption that ALL Psalms MUST be sung with instruments. Not every Psalm in the Bible contains instructions to be sung with instruments. ALL Psalms can be sung without instruments. The word "Psalm" simply means a sacred song or hymn. Again, where is the Scripture that explicitly states that IM is the ONLY ritual of the Old Covenant that applies to the New Covenant today? Hint: There is NO Scripture like that.

Remember: Just as man cannot serve God and mammon, man cannot serve two Covenants.

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Jimmy Wren
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May 14 2010, 11:55 AM 

We are only commanded to 'sing' psalms in the New Testament. There is no 'commandment' from David, Gad or any prophet that would allow an orchestra accompaniment to our singing.

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Ken Sublett
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The burning in hell PATTERNISM

May 12 2010, 3:42 PM 

I told you that God will drive His enemies into hell exactly as they went in procession to Jerusalem to burn up infants to the beat of loud musical instruments. Isaiah 30 proves that the SIGHTS and SOUNDS of God repaying His enemies will be the same wind, string and percussion instruments Lucifer, the singing and harp playing prostitute brought into the garden of Eden. A "serpent" is a musical enchanter(ess) for those with ears and eyes.

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

A Bit of Methodist History Concerning Instrumental Music

May 13 2010, 3:47 AM 

A Bit of Methodist History Concerning Instrumental Music

by Robert Turner

[Note: Many of our readers are probably aware that instrumental music was not used in the worship of the first century church. In fact, instruments were not introduced into the Roman Catholic Church until more than 600 years after time of Christ. The Greek Orthodox Church has been very slow to allow them. Most of the major Protestant churches began without them. Robert Turner makes an interesting observation along these lines in the following article.]

While in Bangor, Maine, in bro. Ralph Smart's study, I had opportunity to examine a book called: HYMN STUDIES - ANNOTATED METHODIST HYMNAL by Charles S. Nutter, Tilton, New Hampshire; Feb. 15, 1884. On page 18 of this book there was hymn no. 27, "Praise The Lord." We give the first and fourth stanzas:

1. Praise the Lord! his glories show, Saints within his courts below, Angels round his throne above, All that see and share his love.

4. Strings and voices, hands and hearts In the concert bear your parts; All that breathe, your Lord adore, Praise him, praise him evermore! - Henry F. Lyte, Alt

What interested us particularly was the comment which followed the above hymn. Mr. Nutter, author of this Methodist Hymnal, said: "The fourth stanza would not have been admitted into any hymn book by the early Methodist. Instruments of music in the church, and especially those with strings" were an abomination to them.

Dr. Adam Clarke [noted Methodist commentator] said, "Music as a science I admire; but instruments of music in the house of God I abominate and abhor."

John Wesley ["founder" of Methodism] said, "I have no objection to instruments of music in our chapels, provided they are neither heard nor seen."

Readers of church history are familiar with these "quotes" - but in a Methodist Hymnal??? Hummmmm!!



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(no login)

Quoting Other Denominationalists!

May 13 2010, 7:02 AM 

When a denominationalist (who believes he is not a denominationalist) surely can't prove their position from scripture for condemning instrumental use in worship, they resort to the words of men. The words of men whom they believe to have been apart from the true church.

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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: Quoting Other Denominationalists!

May 13 2010, 11:54 AM 

Quoting the words of early denominationalists only shows that even they knew that instrumental music (IM) was not scriptural in Christian worship. The first-century Christians certainly did not use IM in worship. A church that men created and that Christ never authorized, the Roman Catholic church, first caved in to the whims of men and added IM some 600 years after Christ. The other denominations that Christ also never authorized (for example, Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Episcopal, etc.) initially knew that IM was unscriptural, but they eventually followed in the Catholics' tracks and added IM. Of course, the ONE Church that Christ founded over 2,000 years ago, the Church of Christ, has known all along that IM in Christian worship is not scriptural.

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(no login)

No, Rather, It Is: 'Quoting Denominationalists!'

May 13 2010, 6:01 PM 


Denominationalists resort to questions such as: "Where does it say in the Bible 'NOT TO' use inanimate, lifeless mechanical music devices in the assembly of [living] saints?" Then, they misapply the "law of silence" by declaring that "God approves that which the Scripture is silent about (or does not say 'not to')."

The answer is simple: It is a real burden on denominationalists to prove that God approves, authorizes, commands, is pleased with, accepts, endorses [Ray's notions], fills "a building filled with instrumental music with His glory" [also Ray's notion], operating musical objects [musician's toys] in the assembly. None of these is found in the Holy Scripture.

What we find in Scripture is David's commandment to use musical devices and objects to "praise God" and please himself. Of course, Amos 6:5 plainly tells us that he INVENTED to himself instruments of music. Why not? Besides being a dancer, he was a skilled musician, king of Israel. He was the one who ordained musical instruments (II Chron 29:27).

We also find in Scripture idolatrous worship with the use of musical instruments -- the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, etc.; read Daniel 3.

Oh, yes, the Protestant Reformation of the Roman Catholic Church did not go far enough in eliminating some of the evil deeds and rituals of Catholicism.

Thanks to John Wesley, Adam Clarke, the annotated Methodist Hymnal, even the Primitive Baptist Church, for pointing out the veracity of the Scripture where God has NEVER commanded, authorized or approved the use of DEAD mechanical musical objects in the assembly of His LIVING saints.

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Ken Sublett
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Being blind and deaf is not curable if you can't read the remedy.

May 13 2010, 5:54 PM 

Being Biblically and ehtically illiterate would be ok if they would just quit lying about the Church of Christ introducing NOT using instruments. Not even in the modern apostasies are instruments introduced until people feel the pain of sub-prime spending:

AMe instrumental music added Methodists

First Choirs (worship teams) and then instruments

Instrumental music was introduced into our denomination in the year 1848-9. It commenced at Bethel, in Baltimore, under the following circumstances: We had erected the present grand house of God in 1848, at a cost of about fifteen thousand five hundred dollars. We had paid, at its completion and dedication, five thousand of it, and had eight years in which to pay the remainder, which was divided into eight equal notes.

Immediately after the dedication dissensions arose among its officers. While the new church was in progress, as I have stated elsewhere, Ebenezer Chapel was sold to its Church-members for the nominal sum of ten dollars, which fact, and the signing of transfer documents, produced so much antagonism among the trustees of Bethel as to render the raising of the first note uncertain; so it was deemed prudent and wise to resort to extraordinary measures in order to raise the sum needed. This was a concert of sacred music under the management of Dr. James Fleet, of Georgetown, D. C., whose musical taste was exquisite. The lyrics were composed by myself in order that I might be certain that nothing incongruous in sentiment to the sanctuary should go into it.

The novelty of the measure was a powerful attraction. It filled Bethel to overflowing, produced a fine effect, and gave us three hundred dollars net. The next sacred concert held in Bethel was for a similar purpose, and consisted of seven stringed instruments, the conductor being Mr. William Appo, then the most learned musician of the race. As in the former concert, so in this, all the music was sacred.

After this the members of Bethel Church were convinced that instrumental music could be as fully consecrated to the service of the living God under the New Testament dispensation as it was under Old Testament

At Cane Ridge and everywhere the rise of "gospel music" which aroused and picked pockets, it is proven by historians and musicologists to have been produced by black slaves: hush harbors and drumming was outlawed for its destruction of morals. The blacks (slaves always defeat their masters) turned to polyrhymic hand clapping and held their voodoo services under the name "Methodists."

Honest historians say that the virtual witchcraft began in the black circles and spread like a virus at Cane Ridge. The Stoneites which became the Christian Church adopted the "Methodist Shouting" and other mind-altering practices before they added instruments. It is a fact that what became the Church of Christ repudiated Cane Ridge--in Bourbon County (hee haw)

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Re: Being blind and deaf is not curable if you can't read the remedy.

May 13 2010, 7:59 PM 

Ephesians 5:19 and Psalms 150 show the way. You just have the words of men.

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Paul, Apostle of Jesus Christ VS David, King of Israel & Musician/Dancer

May 13 2010, 9:37 PM 

New Testament ---------------------------------- VS --- Old Testament
Epistle ---------------------------------------- VS --- Poetry
Christian -------------------------------------- VS --- Music lover
Making melody in your heart -------------------- VS --- Playing and dancing (Psa. 150)
Congregational --------------------------------- VS --- Personal (David)
Teaching/admonishing one another --------------- VS --- Blowing the trumpet
Letting the word of Christ dwell in you richly - VS --- Letting everything that hath breath
--------------------------------------------------------[including your pets]....

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Wayne Miller
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May 14 2010, 7:06 AM 

Proverbs 17 - NIV

24.) A discerning person keeps wisdom in view, but a fool's eye wander to the ends of the earth.

27.) Those who have knowledge use words with restraint, and those who have understanding are even-tempered.

Proverbs 18 - NIV

2.) Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions.

1 Timothy 1 - NIV

3.) As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer 4.) nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. these promote controversies rather than God's work which is by faith. 5.) The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6.) Some have wandered away from these and turned to meaningless talk. 7.) They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm. 8.) We know that the law is good if one uses it properly.

Titus 3 - NIV

9.) But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. 10.) Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. 11.) You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.

Galatians 5 - NIV

13.) You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. 14.) The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 15.) If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

Ephesians 4 - NIV

29.) Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30.) And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31.) Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32.) Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

Hebrews 12 - NIV

14.) Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 15.) See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.

Jude 1 - NIV

The sin and doom of Godless men

3.) Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. 4.) For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

5.) Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6.) And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7.) In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

8.) In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings. 9.) But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" 10.) Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals these are the very things that destroy them.

11.) Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam's error; they have been destroyed in Korah's rebellion.

12.) These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted twice dead. 13.) They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

14.) Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15.) to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him." 16.) These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.

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(no login)

Said Another Way

May 14 2010, 1:36 PM 

Men who contend and purport that they know the Scripture also hail to a double standard by saying: "God does not authorize instrumental music, but it is ok to use a PA system or other objects NOT authorized by God.") They do so by inventing and adding to Scriptures a man-made hypothesis of 'Generic Authority' to cover areas/specific items that they intend to use to worship God. Throughout Scriptures we are told of specific sins of the flesh and heart, but for some reason, instrumental music isn't listed. Man takes that on himself to make instrumental music a sin and add it to the Word of God. You will also hear a dull cry by some men to say that you can't play a PA but you can a piano in an attempt to explain that playing a piano is an addition to singing where speaking and singing into a PA system is not.

The answer is simple: It is a real burden on men to prove that God approves, authorizes, commands, is pleased with, accepts, endorses [Concerned's-aka Donnie Cruz, William Crump's, other's notions], the PA system, that AIDS in the worship to our Lord, but does not do so with the piano which also AIDS in the worship to our Lord. Man takes it upon himself to delineate between the two. As the parables of the talents tells us, God wants man to use and develop his talents to the Glory of God. To sit on a talent, such as being a musician, and not use it to the Glory of God, is sinful. Also, God doesn't always point out everything for us, does He? As in the Great Commission in Matthew He tells us to GO, Matthew 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,". Does God also instruct us by Scripture on how to GO? We only have examples of GOING, with the first century saints, by foot, ship, and word of mouth. Are we adding to Scripture by using a car, or a plane, train, internet, etc. to further the Kingdom? Of course not. Here we go again by addressing the age old topic of common sense. it so common? Doesn't seem to be.

What we find in Scripture is David's commandment to use musical devices and objects to "praise God." Of course, Amos 6:5 is not intended to defraud David because he used instruments of music, but tells us to beware of those who would not use their talents for the Glory of God. David is only mentioned in Amos 6 as being one who played an instrument. The whole chapter of Amos 6 is a warning against those who don't use their time of earth to follow God. Man has abused the Word of God by saying that Amos 6 is a rebuttal against David for his use of instrumental music. It is clearly not such a rebuttal.
Remember that even in the New Testament that we find in Acts 13:22--I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My own heart, who will do all My will.

Thanks to Clemente of Alexandria, who writes in Book II, Chapter IV, "In the present instance He is a guest with us. For the apostle adds again, Teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, in psalms, and hymns, and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your heart to God. And again, Whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and His Father. This is our thankful revelry. And even if you wish to sing and play to the harp or lyre, there is no blame.14051405.
This is the same Clemente of Alexandria, who Ken Sublett uses to abuse instrumental music.
Listen ALSO, to what Clemente says of our present day four part harmony...."Chromatic harmonies are therefore to be abandoned to immodest revels, and to florid and meretricious music."
Is four part harmony wrong? No more than instrumental music is......GOD BLESS!!!

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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: Said Another Way

May 14 2010, 2:49 PM 

So it's back to the PA system "argument" again--and again--again, just like it was on FaithSite, and it went NOWHERE. It's just more of the same, has-been, tired, worn-out "Fruity Loop."

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(no login)

Re: Paul, Apostle of Jesus Christ VS David, King of Israel & Musician/Dancer

May 14 2010, 1:46 PM 

Funny, ain't it?
Below is Donnie's personal oppinion of how he views instrumental music. It is the same ole same ole with him, but that is not the eye catcher here. The very last item is wherein the humor lies. Donnie thought he was making a 'mini haha' against those who use instrumental music by suggesting that David's cry of "Let everything that has breath praise the LORD. Praise the LORD." from Psalms 150:6 include personal pets.
I don't think that pets can worship God, but Donnie.....who created animals?
Check Genesis if you need help.

New Testament ---------------------------------- VS --- Old Testament
Epistle ---------------------------------------- VS --- Poetry
Christian -------------------------------------- VS --- Music lover
Making melody in your heart -------------------- VS --- Playing and dancing (Psa. 150)
Congregational --------------------------------- VS --- Personal (David)
Teaching/admonishing one another --------------- VS --- Blowing the trumpet
Letting the word of Christ dwell in you richly - VS --- Letting everything that hath breath
--------------------------------------------------------[including your pets]....

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(no login)

CM is hoppin' again?

May 14 2010, 4:54 PM 


It has to be because of....


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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)

Re: CM is hoppin' again?

May 14 2010, 6:02 PM 

It's merely because the ex-FaithSiters finally got tired of trying to find some other place to go, so they "came back home" to CM.

It also sounds like "Ganymede" is telling us that he is Max MOON. Nice pun.

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Ken Sublett
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Proof texts always Prod Preachers!

May 14 2010, 9:49 PM 

Preachers always get in trouble when they quote proof texts without knowing that they are jabbing their fingers in themselves.

1 Tim 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
1 Tim 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

G3454 muthos moo'-thos e as G3453 (through the idea of tuition); a tale, that is, fiction ("myth")fable.
G3453 mueo moo-eh'-o From the base of G3466 ; to initiate, that is, (by implication) to teach:&emdash;instruct.

Music is derived from mystery which means "to make the lambs dumb before the slaughter." Sure works on preachers.


In every Greek city the god Dionysus was worshipped by fraternities and sororities and also by mixed communities. Dionysus was a god of fruitfulness and vegetation but especially of wine. The Dionysiac festivals provided an opportunity for stepping outside of the daily routine. The festivals included not only drinking wine and engaging in sexual activity but also participating in such significant features of Greek civilization as choral singing and mimes. In many cases, only the initiated could participate in the ceremonies. As almost every Greek did join in, initiation into the Dionysiac cult might be compared to tribal initiations. It seems that initiation into the Dionysiac Mysteries was accompanied by initiation into sexual life. The act of producing offspring, however, could never be wholly separated from the thought of death, so that the worshippers of Dionysus were aware of a mystic communion among the ancestors, the living generation, and the future members of the community. Britannica Members

For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue (babbling) speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit (in his/her mind) he speaketh mysteries. 1 Corinthians 14:2

"the condition is that of Ecstasy, the utterances are words or sounds of prayer or praise but are not clear in meaning, and give the impression to the hearer of being mysteries or insane expressions."... This phenomenon seems to include sighs, groanings, shoutings, cries, and utterances either of disconnected words (such as Abba, hosanna, hallelujah, maranatha) or connected speech of a jubilating sort which impresses the observer as ecstatic prayer or psalmodic praise." (Schaff-Herzog, Speaking in Tongues, p. 36)

The worship in Corinth, Ephesus and Colosse before they became Christians was concerned with Dionysus or Bacchus. When Paul said: "don't get drunk with wine" but "sing" Biblical truth in the heart as you "speak" it to one another, he was warning of Bacchus worship which still appealed to certain members of the new body of Christ.

"Now Iamblichus (De Mysteriis, III.ix) goes into the matter of the so-called Corybantic and Bacchic 'frenzies' produced by musical instruments in the Mysteries of Ceres and Bacchus; and in his Life of Pythagoras (xxv) he, further, tells us that:

The whole Pythagoric [OURLAWED ROMANS 14] school went through a course of musical training, both in harmony and touch, whereby, by means of appropriate chants, they beneficially converted the dispositions of the soul to contrary emotions.

The Iamblichus

There are some, however, who suppose there is likewise, the subject-race of a tricky nature, artful, and assuming all shapes, turning many ways, that personates gods and dæmons and souls of the dead like actors on the stage; and that through these everything that seems to be good or bad is possible. They are led to form this judgment because these subject-spirits are not able to contribute anything really beneficial as relates to the soul, nor even to perceive such things; but on the other hand, they ill treat, deride, and often impede those who are returning to virtue.

They are likewise full of conceit, and take delight in vapors and sacrifices.

Notes:5. Because the begging priest with open mouth attempts in many ways to raise our expectations. Note 13

13. The agurtes or begging priest generally belonged to the worship of Rhea [ZOE] or Cybele, the Mother. He is frequently depicted in a most unfavorable light. Apuleius speaks of a company of these emasculate priests in the eighth book of the Metamorphoses. They are also described in the Republic of Plato:

"Agurtæ and Mantics frequent the houses of the rich and persuade them that they possess a power granted by the gods to expiate by sacrifices and chants any unjust act that has been committed and that they induce the gods by blandishments and magic rites to help them.

They collected money in this way, and they also followed the selling of nostrums and telling of fortunes."

That's why John called slick speakers, singers and instrument players SORCERERS as Jesus called them HYPOCRITES.

Peter warned about Paul's writings because Paul ANTICIPATES the same crooked generation (skolion singers) corrupting the Word meaning "selling learning at retail" or "adultery."

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What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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