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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
65.1.118.243

Re: A Review of Music in the Old Testament

May 19 2010, 5:44 PM 

Why spend (waste) so much time desperately defending instrumental music in the Old Testament, when true Christians today do not follow the religious rituals that were under the Old Covenant? People who do that surely must be trying to follow two Covenants.

 
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Ray
(no login)
146.23.68.42

"Concerned" ignores and rejects God's Word

May 20 2010, 7:29 AM 

You can ignore all the Instrumental Music passages from the Old Testament -- all of which substantiate that God did indeed authorize, command, approve, and most importantly INSPIRE the use of Instrumental Music in praise or worship to and of Him.

 
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Concerned
(no login)
170.141.177.53

Ray adds to God's Word

May 20 2010, 10:41 AM 

No, Ray, I have read and studied those passages, plus many other passages, on instrumental music. NONE (NOT ONE) of the passages proves that God did/does command, approve, ordain, authorize the use of inanimate, lifeless musical objects and devices in the assembly of saints. "No, not one; no, not one."

Mankind, in his own wisdom and inspiration, has devised his own plan to make instrumental music a part of his praise to God. That includes you, David the musician, even Nebuchadnezzar (Daniel 3).

"[5] That at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king hath set up:
[6] And whoso falleth not down and worshippeth shall the same hour be cast into the midst of a burning fiery furnace.
[7] Therefore at that time, when all the people heard the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and all kinds of musick, all the people, the nations, and the languages, fell down and worshipped the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up."


Why did you not quote that passage (Daniel 3) on instrumental music from the Old Testament (as well)? For fear that God's people might be equated to the idolatrous pagans using musical devices? Is that it?

You've added one more untruth in making up the notion that God did "most importantly INSPIRE the use of Instrumental Music [in caps: sic]...."

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
65.1.107.187

Re: "Concerned" ignores and rejects God's Word

May 20 2010, 12:12 PM 

Ray seems to fixate only on the musical instrument passages in the Old Testament in praise and worship to God. Why does Ray omit the passages that deal with burnt offerings and sacrifices? God definitely authorized and commanded them in praise and worship. So what's the deal with holding on to IM while casting out the burnt offerings? Did God give explicit permission that we can select whatever rituals (such as IM) that were associated with the Law of Moses and carry them into Christianity and cast out the rest of the Law of Moses? Absolutely not. Even Dave above as much as said that the sacrifices became obsolete with Jesus' sacrifice on the cross, yet he still clings to the grossly mistaken notion that IM can continue into Christianity, even though IM accompanied the sacrifices and burnt offerings. Such people practice "selective religion" and thus follow two Covenants: the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.

Just as man cannot serve God and mammon, man cannot serve two Covenants and expect to be pleasing to God.

 
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Concerned
(no login)
170.141.177.53

Affiliated with churches of Christ or not?

May 18 2010, 3:07 PM 

The post-modern Change Movement has been around in the last few decades. There have been some 20-25 of the 18,000+ congregations of the church of Christ worldwide whose leaders have succumbed to the change agents' clamor for change in "worship" and certain doctrinal matters. (That means, of course, that 99.86% of the churches is still the "we" or "us.")

These few "progressive" congregations have affiliated themselves with either the Christian Church or the Community Church. There are others who still retain the name "church of Christ" although they now adhere to certain new, acquired doctrine and teachings not supported in Scripture.

So, Ray, it seems, has an identity crisis. Is he affiliated with one of these congregations experiencing a similar identity crisis? Is his some kind of miscalculation when 99.86% of churches of Christ does not use mechanical music devices in the assembly?

 
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Ken Sublett
(no login)
67.142.130.32

My permission is granted:

May 17 2010, 11:14 PM 

No one said that you cannot musicate in the holy places: that was the abomination of desolation where they "fixed" the males to serve is musician--prostitute. We just said NOT without our wearing rubber gloves and a space suit and giggle at you: We knows what shadow lurks when you fondle that microphone. I heard today that Baalam's ass was his mistress!

THE A CAPPELLA WORSHIP LEADER: THE GOAT SINGERS OR CASTRATOS.

A deeper-reaching attempt to explain the significance of the castrato age has been made by Moses (1960) in an interesting paper on the psychology of the castrato voice. He interprets the emergence of this vocal fashion as the fulfillment of an age-old dream wish of bisexual hermaphroditism. Even if one does not follow Moses in some of his somewhat overdrawn conclusions, there is left enough of a solid basis for his theory. Hermaphroditic mythology plays an important part in cultural history. In collections of primitive art one sometimes see sculptures of idols each with female breasts and a penis

Voices mirror not only individual characters but the spirit of a period as well. In this sense the voice of the castrato personifies the bisexual ideal with its unity of a female voice in a man's body. In the mythological atmosphere of the baroque opera the castrato portrayed gods and mythological persons who presented male and female characteristics in a vocal hermaphroditic combination.

In an unfinished book that Paul Moses left at his death he predicted, over ten years ago, quite correctly the approach of another age of crossover of the sexes. The young generation of today favors fashions that obliterate the differences between the sexes. Girls wear pants, and young men sport girlish long hair and wear necklaces and bracelets. The classical love song of the nineteenth century, the love-centered operettas, and the popular songs of the "June-moon" variety of the first half of this century have given way to the harsh rhythms of rock and roll of the unisex generation. And the phoniatrist sees among his patients an increasing number of young adult males who do not use the deep masculine voice that the pubertal growth of the larynx offers but continue to speak in an artificial high pitch of almost female sound. Friedrich S. Brodnitz, M.D.

 
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Ken Sublett
(no login)
67.142.130.32

So you wanna let the knife slip, as Paul hoped?

May 18 2010, 12:03 AM 

"Philodemus considered it paradoxical that music should be regarded as veneration of the gods while musicians were paid for performing this so-called veneration. Again, Philodemus held as self deceptive the view that music mediated religious ecstasy. He saw the entire condition induced by the noise of cymbals and tambourines as a disturbance of the spirit.

He found it significant that, on the whole, only women and effeminate men fell into this folly.

Accordingly, nothing of value could be attributed to music; it was no more than a slave of the sensation of pleasure, which satisfied much in the same way that food and drink did.

"Now, many a man from the false religions, which are not ashamed of criticising what is noble, will ask: how can there be a feast without carousing and overeating, without the pleasant company of hosts and guests, without quantities of unmixed wine, without richly set tables and highly stacked provisions of everything that pertains to a banquet, without pageantry and jokes,

bantering and merry-making to the accompaniment of flutes and citharas, the sound of drums and cymbals and other effeminate and frivolous music of every king, enkindling unbridled lusts with the help of the sense of hearing. For in and through the same [pleasures] those persons openly seek their joy, for what true joy is their they do not know.

 
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Concerned
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

More of Dave's fallacy: MUSICAL TALENT

May 18 2010, 3:10 AM 

Dave says:

"[2] As the parables of the talents tells us, God wants man to use and develop his talents to
the Glory of God. To sit on a talent, such as being a musician, and not use it to the Glory
of God, is sinful."


Response:


Some contend that since every talent is a gift from God, they should all be used in worshipping Him.
Since playing an instrument is a special ability, they conclude that it must be used in the worship of
God. This is, no doubt, sincere reasoning, but it is very unsound. There are many talents and abilities
which we cannot introduce into the worship of God. There are athletically inclined young men in the
church who can perform acts of physical prowess. There are those who have the talent for cheerleading.
There are those who have the ability to tell funny stories. Should these abilities be utilized in the
assembly of saints. Should they perform these acts in "the worship of God"?



 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
67.32.193.187

Re: More of Dave's fallacy: MUSICAL TALENT

May 18 2010, 9:41 AM 

So what does a person do if he has a "talent" that conflicts with God's commands about worship? Can a highly trained pianist/organist truly justify himself by reasoning that he can "play" for God, "accompany and enhance" the congregation's singing, when God has specified vocal music in worship? Can the members of a popular rock band truly justify themselves by reasoning that they can "play" for God and give people "pleasure" in worship, when God has specified vocal music in worship? Man says that if he has instrumental musical abilities and doesn't use them in worship to "praise God," then that is "sinful." That is a blatantly fallacious assumption based on man's own personal preferences. Such an assumption flies in the face of God's explicit command to use VOCAL music in worship. God doesn't say to use vocal music WITH IM, He just says to use vocal music. God's Word in the New Testament should be sufficient. Yet man still reasons and assumes that his instrumental musical talents must be used to "praise God" when God specifies VOCAL music. In reality, man's only "justification" for using IM is based on the will of the people--give people what they want in worship and ignore the FACT that God simply commands vocal music in worship.

 
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Ken Sublett
(no login)
67.142.130.15

There are LAWS about Talent!

May 18 2010, 5:28 PM 

DIRECT COMMANDMENT:

Heb. 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers,
ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God;
and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
1Pet. 4:11 If any man speak,
let him speak as the oracles of God;


Isaiah 58 OUTLAWS speaking your own words in the REST assembly.
Now, how can you use your talent:

if any man minister,
let him do it as of the ability which God giveth:
that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ,
to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


Church is Bible Class for DISCIPLES where the DIRECT COMMAND is to speak "that which is written" even in the never-musical passages.

You don't DEACON in the Bible Class: you minister 24/7.

I have been working on Isaiah 55 for another forum and I have this much ready to show why WE will not permit the boylings singing "Lurd i wanna dance in your lap" when WE attend Bible class. The new wineskins dogma claims to be a Holy Tavern: they might as well say a Holey Whore house.

http://www.piney.com/Isaiah.55.Word.Spirit.html

My imagry is especially appropriate when "corrupting the Word" means "selling learning at retail as well as adultery."

The direct command to SPEAK
And the resources are "Psalms (about 50), hymns (about 5) and spiritual or inspired songs." That is the Biblical text and no one misunderstood that to be a musical presentation as opposed to a teaching and admonishing operation for close to 4 centuries. Would that our theologians were as literate.

 
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Ken Sublett
(no login)
67.142.130.18

A Viper Race?

May 19 2010, 8:33 PM 

You cannot read the Bible without believing that there are at least two races of humanoids on the earth.
Especially in India which has some very spooky artifacts and documents about a race of people. They were the NAGA or serpent worshipers. That is why the "serpent" in the Genesis account is defined as "a musical enchanter" and Josephus brands the Levites as Brahmins.

Paul said that Cain (from a musical note) was OF that wicked one and defines Eve's fall as "wholly seduced" as a bride is seduced just before her husband.

Jesus speaks of people OF FAITH or OF TRUTH. He said that God did not REVEAL Himself to the WORLD and that is the unique KOSMOS invented by Phythagoras who brought the Babylon-Indian view of the "music of the sphears." He did not reveal Himself to the WISE or SOPHISTS which includes rhetoricians, singers, musicians, actors" and all of the performing arts. The Bible is parallel to the Babylonian tablets which attributes all of the arts and crafts to an evil race of people who were most powerful in building temples, then sowing discord, and then tearing them down. Sound like the change agents?

Then, we have the Israelites refusing to listen to God's voice and demanding a human mediator: they immediately fell back into musical idolatry for which God abandoned them BACK to worship the starry host.

Now, you can say that God ABANDONED them to worship the STARRY HOST until you are black and blue and people will IMMEDIATELY raise their hand and insist that the worship of the STARRY HOST is authority for music in the church. Yea, Rick Atchley said "a" spirit told him he was going to have to preach that from this mess "God commanded instrumental praise and WE had better not be disobedient."

You can tell them that the Levites were cursed by their father who commanded us NOT to attend their assemblies or make a covenant with them, and Little Jack Horny will jump out of his BOX and say that "a" spirit told them that the Levites are THEIR patternism for instrumental music in the CHURCH defined as a school (only) of the Word (only).

The Levites would get slaughtered if they went into the holy place as a type of church: and Leaping Leana insistis that the musicians just STALK into the Holy Place defined inclusively and exclusively by the seven lamps or spirit of knowledge, the bread of fellowship and offering the incense of our OWN lips.

You can prove that the Levites were under the KING and COMMANDERS of the Army and in 2 Chronicles 29 they STOOD IN RANKS and made a great noise during the BURNT OFFERING; and Christ said that burnt offerings were NOT ocmmanded and they just lust to become KINGS (queens?) set over us with Levites to threaten us if we object to their heresy.

You can prove that the Levite's "service" is called HARD BONDAGE with a word connected to Abaddon or Apollyon and they will whine that if you DON'T use "machines for doing hard work" you are a LEGALIST.

You can prove that when the Levites "prophesied" they were soothsaying and they will tell you that they WANT to be soothsayers or in John's word "sorcerets."

Christ spoke in parables from the foundation of the world to PREVENT those of the WORLD or the WISE from even hearing the gospel.

I just cannot be denied: the race of Vipers would be baptized with a WIND to separate them from the grain and the CHAFF would be burned up. The command was to go preach the gospel. Let people make a decision and then MOVE ON. The gospel including baptism is a GO-NO GO test to SEPARATE the chaff from the grain.

The Gospel is a WITNESS or "flashing" a sign like Jesus used the SOP (same as Psallo) to cause Satan to come into Judas. MANY are called or invited but FEW are chosen: chosen means to be TESTED and then chosen. The command is to GO: music intends to collectivize you into a community church (commune) to NEUTER you so that you are not effective.

We are COMMANDED to save ourselves from the CROOKED RACE: the crooked race are exactly those Paul weeded out when he said "don't get drunk on wine" before you sing which appears as "don't get fluted down" before you SPEAK the inspired text. The crooked race will be singing, clapping, playing and writhing and they will just HISS all over you if you refuse to entwine in the serpent mating dance.

http://www.piney.com/Acts.2.Crooked.html

The message of The Book of Enoch and the universal Hebrew understanding is that if you have FALLEN into making a connection between the "feelings" induced by musical performance and worship in the spirit, you have fallen and you will never get up. In the early accounts people consoled themselves by TRYING to seduce as many people to fall from grace to make them feel better waiting for their fate.

I keep repeating clear Bible text mostly to inform those OF THE WORLD or the VIPER or CROOKED RACE that it's ok if they get ALMOST ALL of the WORLD'S population.

1 Pet. 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Matt. 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.


You can prove that Lying Wonders are the very "singing, playin and drama" which CLAIMS to be the work of God or inspired by God. The Serpents writhe in the mating mass because liars KNOW that they can fool most of the people most of the time. If you trim your workload attendance down from 6400 to 3500 and get the same INCOME that fools ENOUGH. When Judas found out that he was used by Satan he hanged himself and twisted in the wind until he rotted and fell.

As Donnie has noted, only a tiny few of the 18000 plus congregations have been taken over and these were stolen by the original RESTRUCTURE SECTARIANS who were convinced that they would get ALL of them. Their scholarship looks good to those NOT of the elect (disciples of Christ: not ceremonial legalists) but when you PROVE that they cannot list a proof text without lying you are surprised that they had virtually zero luck at a HUGE cost including lives of godly people wasted by having "the church house of widows" whisked away as slick as a slug.

If you DON'T GET IT: the direct command of which I have about a dozen versions is "Eat, Drink and Make Mary" because when assuredly will never be able to read BLACK text on BROWN paper.

 
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ken Sublett
(no login)
67.142.130.16

Christ in SPIRIT branded for cutting and burning the MUSICATORS.

May 20 2010, 5:20 PM 

Like I say, Jesus drew a line in the sand between types of people. I don't know how He saw the MARKS but you might remember that when the people rose up in musical idolatry at Mount Sinai. You remember that Jacob had cursed the tribe of Levi and they were therefore used as executioners and musical exorcists as the not commanded and ungodly animal slaughter which always marked a FLESH and BLOOD lust.

Ex. 32:25 And when Moses saw that the people were naked; (for Aaron had made them naked unto their shame among their enemies:)
Ex. 32:26 Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORDs side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.
Ex. 32:27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
Ex. 32:28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.

How did these musician-executioners know WHO to run through with a sword? I think that musical mockers have a MARK which is not all that hard to discern. For one thing if you quoted a passage "Jesus said thou shalt not use instruments in they worship services" they would blush and shout "How dare you pass judgment on sincere people who uses instruments in they worship services." I see it all day long. And he DID say just the same and MARKED them in prophecy so that those OF TRUTH or OF FAITH and not with VIPER DNA can understand even if no "doctor of the law" has ever read it. Remember, Jesus said that the "doctors of the law take away the key to knowledge." Jesus lumps Pharisees and "doctors of the Law" as well as Pharisees and Scribes as HYPOCRITES: In several places He identified hypocrites as speakers, singers and instrument players. That is the ONLY true meaning in the Greek language: any performer is called a HYPOCRITE.

Working with A Christian Church major player I have posted quick studies of:

http://www.piney.com/Isaiah.50.Smitten.Plucked.html

This chapter, as well as chapter 53 where Jesus was striken (lying with a woman concept) and wounded for our transgressions: that word meaning play the flute, steal other people's inheritance, pollute and prostitute.

http://www.piney.com/Isaiah.55.Word.Spirit.html

Chapter 55 proves that Jesus Christ as the Living Word has given us all of the WORDS to be given away free of charte. Unless we speak HIS words they cannot return to Him

http://www.piney.com/Isaiah.58.html

Chapter 58 defines the REST which in Greek is PAUO: that means to stop the laded burden which includes the type of repeating songs so popular by the wimpy burgers and which "create spiritual anxiety through religious rituals."

Therefore, He outlaws seeking our OWN pleasure or even SPEAKING OUR OWN WORDS. That is because church is a school of the Bible and anyone who wants to substitute their body and their songs is marked as a VIPER or a Crooked race meaning singers of skolion songs with instruments as a display of talent.

The Book of Enoch quoted by Jude defines EXACTLY what is going on as we will NOT BOW OVER and lament and dance for the PIPERS.

 
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Dave
(no login)
69.59.106.52

Can't Keep the Truth Out

May 21 2010, 12:45 AM 

--William Crump said, God doesn't command any sort of AID like IM to accompany singing.
--Thank you William for FINALLY admitting that IM is only an aid, just like a PA is an aid to the voice.

--William Crump asked, Can the members of a popular rock band truly justify themselves by reasoning that they can "play" for God and give people "pleasure" in worship, when God has specified vocal music in worship?
--Ok William, for the hard of learning, we will try this again, for God has indeed specified vocal music, and instrumental music doesnt hinder the ability for the church to sing..it only AIDS the singing, as does the PA system. Please tell me Donnie and William..about the apples and oranges. I havent heard it the last 15 minutes..please please repeat it for the umpteenth time, even if it doesnt make sense and never will.

--Donnie mentioned,There are many talents and abilities which we cannot introduce into the worship of God.
--Donnie, your argument makes you sound, as usual, as someone who doesnt care to know the truth. What you are putting up for rebuttal doesnt even make sense. Cheerleading, and physical talents in worship to our Lord.yea I see. Hey Donnie, perhaps you can try leading a new effort to get a 5k run during worship, like around the outside of the pews and up through the pulpit. Donnie, yes your reasoning sounded that bad."

--William asked, If Ray carries any part of the Law of Moses over to Christianity, such as taking IM from Second Chronicles and Psalm 150, he takes the rituals of the Law of Moses (which Christ nailed to the cross--Col. 2:14) into Christianity."
--Hey William, in both the Old Testament and New Testament both tell us you will not murder.' Your reasoning tells us that since murder is prohibited in the OT, it is ok in the NT, even though we see that it is mentioned in both the OT and NT. Also, you can teach the story of David and Goliath to your children, but if someone asks about Davids use of instrumental music, then you condemn him as a nudist and dancer. Forked tongue.

--Someone asked, Why does Ray omit the passages that deal with burnt offerings and sacrifices?
--Maybe because Ray knows, like you do not, that Jesus Christ did away with all other sacrifices.

--Donnie said,Yes, they may mention the name of a king or a musician having the affinity to the use of musical devices in "praising" God. In fact, David, king of Israel, a dancer and a skilled musician, invented and commanded and ordained musical instruments (II Chron. 29:27; Amos 6:5). And the prophet said, "WOE to...!!!"
--Donnie, the author in Amos 6 wasnt condemning David for inventing instruments of music, but those who use such a talent for a wicked and slothful lifestyle. David used his talent for the glory of God. Again, Donnie, you and William continue to try and warp and twist the Word to no avail.

--William announced to Ray that Name-calling is not much of a rebuttal, Ray.
--Exactly William, like you did when you told someone that they were full of H.A.A.R. (hot air and halitosis). Hypocrite! Oh, and William??? Calling you a hypocrite isn't name-calling. It is only the truth.

--Someone said,Yet even Revelation mentions NOTHING of IM in worship ON EARTH. Some folks are so DESPERATE to have IM that they will circumvent, fabricate, and twist Scripture to "justify" IM.
--The desperation is when people will ADD to the Word of God by saying that instrumental music is a sin.

--Someone mentionedHe does specify the KIND of music to use in worship, which is VOCAL music or singing.
--Exactly. He DOES specify vocal music. Playing an instrument doesnt keep one from singingnow does it?

--Someone mentioned.We must use what God SPECIFIES for a particular act of worship. Since God gives no command regarding PA systems, church buildings, podiums, kitchens, toilets, and hundreds of other incidentals, then we are free to use them at will, because they DO NOT conflict with any of God's existing commands regarding worship. IM most definitely conflicts with God's existing command to use VOCAL music in worship.
--God ALSO gives no command regarding instrumental music. Did you notice that you used the old and worn out argument of God didnt say not to. Just wanted to point that out to you, since you accuse, on a regular basis, others of doing the same thing. Also, instrumental music DOES NOT conflict with obeying the command of singing. It only aids the singing. Can you sing while playing? Yes!!! Does the playing stop the singing? No!!!

Donnie, just remember that you can keep this post from ever being seen. You have the POWER!!!!

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
72.154.222.188

Re: Can't Keep the Truth Out

May 21 2010, 8:35 AM 

I see that Dave still fixates on that "HAAR" business from FaithSite, yet he conveniently forgets or omits the FACT that he started a thread there about narcissism to smear BOH. Now just exactly who is calling the kettle black? Therefore, if I were Dave, I wouldn't mention the word "hypocrite."

 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.120.111

Round and Round We Go

May 21 2010, 1:02 PM 

William Crump said, "I see that Dave still fixates on that "HAAR" business from FaithSite."

William, I am bewildered. I got the acronym (HAHA, Halitosis And Hot Air) wrong and you failed to correct me. What gives brother? Where is the english cop when I need him?
Also thank you for the roundabout confession that you are indeed a hypocrite. You did tell someone that they had bad breath. You did what you condemn others of. You tell others that they slander and revile you while you do the same to others.
Am I the kettle by suggesting that you were the narcissist type? This was confirmed by a clinical psychologist. He said that you were very typical of the type. I also informed you that you were not a confirmed case. Of course, as you know William, that could not be confirmed simply over the internet. I also suggested that you look to someone that you feel comfortable with seeing (psychologist or psychiatrist), and proceed to get the unconfirmed diagnosis then either confirmed or denied.
Have a good weekend everyone.
Like you say William, and it is true that this discussion of vocal and instrumental music has been going on for hundreds of years. It is also true that those who contend that ONLY vocal music is Scriptural have never ever proved such.
They never will. Scripture does not back their contention.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

To Ray: Mere mention of musical instruments means God-authorized

May 20 2010, 11:51 PM 


Ray insists (see earlier post) that we "can [not] ignore all the Instrumental Music passages from the Old Testament -- all of which substantiate that God did indeed authorize, command, approve, and most importantly INSPIRE the use of Instrumental Music in praise or worship to and of Him."

RESPONSE: No, Ray, I have read and studied those passages, plus many other passages, on instrumental music. NONE (NOT ONE) of the passages proves that God did/does command, approve, ordain, authorize the use of inanimate, lifeless musical objects and devices in the assembly of saints. "No, not one; no, not one."

Mankind, in his own wisdom and inspiration, has devised his own plan to make instrumental music a part of his praise to God. That includes you [in several of your posts here], David the musician [you've quoted many passages from the book of Psalms], even Nebuchadnezzar (Daniel 3).


[1] Nebuchadnezzar the king made an image of gold, whose height was threescore cubits, and the breadth thereof six cubits: he set it up in the plain of Dura, in the province of Babylon.
[2] Then Nebuchadnezzar the king sent to gather together the princes, the governors, and the captains, the judges, the treasurers, the counsellers, the sheriffs, and all the rulers of the provinces, to come to the dedication of the image which Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up.
[3] Then the princes, the governors, and captains, the judges, the treasurers, the counsellers, the sheriffs, and all the rulers of the provinces, were gathered together unto the dedication of the image that Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up; and they stood before the image that Nebuchadnezzar had set up.
[4] Then an herald cried aloud, To you it is commanded, O people, nations, and languages,
[5] That at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king hath set up:
[6] And whoso falleth not down and worshippeth shall the same hour be cast into the midst of a burning fiery furnace.
[7] Therefore at that time, when all the people heard the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and all kinds of musick, all the people, the nations, and the languages, fell down and worshipped the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up.
[8] Wherefore at that time certain Chaldeans came near, and accused the Jews.
[9] They spake and said to the king Nebuchadnezzar, O king, live for ever.
[10] Thou, O king, hast made a decree, that every man that shall hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, shall fall down and worship the golden image:
[11] And whoso falleth not down and worshippeth, that he should be cast into the midst of a burning fiery furnace.


Why did you not quote that passage (Daniel 3) on instrumental music from the Old Testament (as well)? Yes, that passage deals with musical instruments, Ray. Was it for fear that "God's people" might be equated to the idolatrous pagans using musical devices?

Again, in these instances, it was man (David or Nebuchadnezzar) that devised an earthly plan. Just because man's purpose was to "offer praise UNTO the Lord" does not make it the Lord's commandment or ordinance or authorization.

Another instance of MAN'S PURPOSE "for the Lord" is recorded in Exodus 35 and 36 and in the book of Numbers.

[2] And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me.
[3] And all the people brake off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron. (Exodus 32)

[22] And they came, both men and women, as many as were willing hearted, and brought bracelets, and earrings, and rings, and tablets, all jewels of gold: and every man that offered offered an offering of gold unto the LORD. (Exodus 35)

[50] We have therefore brought an oblation for the LORD, what every man hath gotten, of jewels of gold, chains, and bracelets, rings, earrings, and tablets, to make an atonement for our souls before the LORD. (Numbers 31)


Ray, you've added one more untruth with your notion that God did "most importantly INSPIRE the use of Instrumental Music [in caps: sic]...."

So far, you have not proven that God did/does command, ordain, authorize the use of mechanical devices with all the noise they make in the assembly of saints. God did not do so even in the Old Testament.

 
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Ken Sublett
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67.142.130.33

Making music for Azazel?

May 21 2010, 7:50 PM 

I told you that the speakers, singers and instrument players John called SORCERERS HAD deceived the whole world.

They are under the leadership of the Babylon Mother of Harlots: the ancient muses called locusts were prostitutes like "selling learning at retail."

pharmakos [v. ad fin.], o(, A. one sacrificed or executed as an atonement or purification for others, scapegoat, Hippon.5, al., Ar.Ra.733 (troch.), Ister 33; and, since criminals were reserved for this fate, a general name of reproach, Ar.Eq.1405, Lys.6.53, Call. in Digseis ii 29, D. 25.80. [a_ Hippon. and Call., a^ Ar.Eq. l.c.; on the accent v. Hdn. Gr.1.150; pharmakos

You remember that I told you that Jacob cursed the Levites and warned us NOT to attend their services: especially not to lie and say that "a spirit" commanded you to impose musical instruments. I feel sure that he was sent a "lying spirit." And all of those who fall into the FAVORED BY THE MUSES are actually absorbing the wrath by being removed from the tiny band of the elect.

I am working on Revelation 9 which is powerful and shuddering.

Let's assume that your spirit was dropped off when you were born and the Owner gave you a fitting TALENT. There is no need for hand-holding when you are being CHOSEN or tested. What if you decided to sell your supply of lambs and invest in the worship team of the local pagan temple. When the Owner returns to examine your fruit I hope that you haven't invested it in fruits.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Making music for Azazel? Why not?

May 22 2010, 2:50 AM 

"Spirited" is characteristic of "musical worship" in Charismatic (Pentecostal) gatherings, isn't it? And many Protestant Churches are imitating the Charismatic Movement's "successful" evangelistic campaigns resulting from "live and spirited musical worship" concerts. Spirited!!! Meaning: that "the Spirit is right here with us." The drums -- the "brutality that is put forth by the drummer."

The Spirit. Then, the spiritual. Then, the supernatural!!! I just did a search on "Azazel supernatural." There were some 36,900 results.

I did a search on "Azazel music" and 233,000 results. Notice a few of the descriptions and expressions from the matches:

-- Oculus Infernum: Kult Ov Azazel: Music
-- Destroying The Sacred: Kult Ov Azazel: Music
-- Music For The Ritual Chamber Album by Azazel
-- Kult ov Azazel: Nocturnal Blasphemy, Gutting Religious Heritage
-- Azazel Hymn of Fire Lyrics are provided for educational and learning purposes only
-- The best part of Dawn of Azazel's music is the sheer craziness
-- ... and more.


Other Protestant Churches are imitating the Charismatic flavor in their "worship services."

The "Praise Team" sometimes performs its "music" for/to the congregation -- because the use of musical instruments is forbidden [remember?] -- and resorts to RHYTHMIC clapping and making unintelligible sounds that simulate the mechanical devices. Okay ... okay ... it's just being "spirited" in a mild manner.

Hmmm!!!


 
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Concerned
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Dave (Church Member) vs. Primitive Baptist Church

May 24 2010, 4:19 AM 



Dave said: Cheerleading, and physical talents in worship to our Lord.yea I see. Hey Donnie, perhaps you can try leading a new effort to get a 5k run during worship, like around the outside of the pews and up through the pulpit.

Response: Exactly the point, Dave. If I were a magician, I wouldn't perform such a special talent in the assembly of saints. Being a magician like David Cooperfield and being a musician as David the king have something in common -- they're both special talents and are associated with performances. Neither has been authorized or approved by God to be used when His saints gather. Think, Dave. Why would God even come up with the idea that those mechanical objects and devices be used in worship? Yes, they may tickle your nerve endings, but when the instruction in Ephesians and Colossians deals with teaching and admonishing one another in ... songs, what can those inanimate, lifeless musical devices accomplish?

Dave said: --Donnie said, "Yes, they may mention the name of a king or a musician having the affinity to the use of musical devices in 'praising' God. In fact, David, king of Israel, a dancer and a skilled musician, invented and commanded and ordained musical instruments (II Chron. 29:27; Amos 6:5). And the prophet said, 'WOE to...!!!'"

--Donnie, the author in Amos 6 wasnt condemning David for inventing instruments of music, but those who use such a talent for a wicked and slothful lifestyle. David used his talent for the glory of God.

Response:You don't seem to understand the meaning of the word "woe." In context, the prophet was saying:

-- Woe to them that ... trust in the mountain of Samaria....
-- [Woe to them] that ... go down to Gath of the Philistines....
-- [Woe to them] that ... cause the seat of violence to come near....
-- [Woe to them] that ... lie upon beds of ivory ... eat the calves out of the midst of the stall
-- [Woe to them] that ... chant to the sound of the viol, and invent to themselves instruments of musick, like David.

Dave, perhaps you've missed the following charts that I showed earlier. I'm not trying to offend you for deriving them from a Primitive Baptist Church elder [the source]. So, here they are, three [that were explained earlier] plus one more [with an explanation]:


=======================================================
Commandment..........|........Aid........|..Addition
=======================================================
Use gopher wood......|Hammer, Saw........|Poplar, Oak
=======================================================




========================================================
Scriptural Example...|........Aid........|..Addition
========================================================
Fruit of the vine....|Table..............|Milk, Coke
________________________________________________________
Bread................|Plate..............|BBQ Pork Chops
========================================================




========================================================
Commandment...|........Aid........|..Addition
========================================================
Sing..........|Song book, Notes...|Play
========================================================



Quote from source: "If we sing with a song book which has notes, the specified music would be heard by God and nothing else. If another type of music were added, it would not be that which the Lord commanded.

"The instrument is not an aid. It is an addition! Therefore, it is not acceptable as an aid. It was never an aid. In the Old Testament, it was considered worship by David (Ps 150).

"The same thing concerning aids and additions can easily be demonstrated in the matter of church buildings, baptisteries, etc. Nothing is done with them that is not within the scope of God's will concerning the worship service. They do not set up actions in worship separate and apart from that which God has ordained, such as is involved in the use of instrumental music.

"God has commanded Christians to meet (Heb 10:25). He has not specified where to meet. They can meet under a tree, by a riverside, in a large building, in a private dwelling, in the daytime, at night, etc. No matter where they meet, when they meet to worship God according to the activities that He has designated (singing, praying, etc.), they are doing no more nor less than God's will. They have not added anything; the building just aids them as a convenient place to meet. They have added nothing to the Lord's command to meet.

"When Christ commanded the church to baptize, He implied everything that was necessary to carry out the command. He did not say "Go to the water," but in executing the Lord's command, we find the apostles going to the water. In using a baptistery, Christians do not baptize and do something else at the same time. If one baptizes a penitent believer in a baptistery, a river, a lake, or a pond, he is doing no more nor less than is required in the command to baptize.

"Perhaps the following chart can help to further distinguish between aids to worship and unscriptural additions to worship:



================================================================================
...God's Command..|...Aid or Addition?...|..Man's Response..|....Conclusion.....
================================================================================
Baptize...........|Baptistery............|Baptize...........|Aid................
================================================================================
Meet..............|Church Building.......|Meet..............|Aid................
================================================================================
Sing..............|Song books............|Sing..............|Aid................
================================================================================
Sing..............|Piano.................|Play..............|Addition...........
================================================================================


"God commanded the church to baptize, meet, and sing; but, nowhere did He command the church to play. When one baptizes in a baptistery, he is not baptizing and doing something else at the same time. When one sings with a song book, he is not singing and doing something else at the same time. But when one sings and plays the piano or other instrument, he is singing and playing at the same time.

"Christ affirmed that the law of Moses, and the prophets, and the psalms are written (Luke 24:44). Therefore, it is obviously permissible to have a written psalm book. He has also commanded us to sing hymns and spiritual songs. So it is obviously permissible for us to have books containing hymns and spiritual songs."

 
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Ken Sublett
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67.142.130.41

Spirit of Christ tasked to REPROVE the WORLD and the WISE

May 24 2010, 12:48 PM 

Jack Cottrell something of a prolific publisher in the Christian Church has probably been responsible for the rise of the Godhead being three persons with their own emotions and own centers of conscience. That means that the Father, Son and Spirit each has their OWN Spirit. Of Course John and all classical trinitarians would brand that as the rise of ANTI-christ.

This "spirit" can be heard by a Rick Atchley stopping him in the middle of a sermon and telling him that he has cowered out too long: 12 years to preach that God's abandonment to worship the starry host is now HIS command to impose instrumental praise.

Jack Cottrell also says that the role of the holy spirit PERSON (people) is to REPROVE of sin which he thinks means that the spirit CORRECTS us to bring us back. Well, that's what happens when the head knocker scholar never quotes original writers and picks up a definition of "reprove" from some other scholar's definition.

The fact is that the Holy Spirit is named Jesus Christ and He is now unfettered to REPROVE or mark those of the WORLD and the WISE. The world or Kosmos is that phythagorean dogma which Paul silenced in Romans 14 and which connects MUSIC to the worship of the STARS which is what God abandoned Israel to because of musical idolatry and worship of the always-pagan trinity.

I have done a quick study of John 16 with some preamble from John 14 and 15 to prove that Jesus Christ in Spirit will or HAS visited your church for the last time to turn out the lamps. The SOUNDS of Jesus Christ removing the lampstand (the seven spirits of knowledge in Isaiah 11) is slick speakers, singers and instrument players who are OUTED as sorcerers--defunct fallen spirits doing their last gasp. This is forcast in Isaiah 30 where the MARKS of sight and sound of God beating His enemies into hell will be the wind, string and percussion instruments Lucifer--the singing and harp playing prostitute--took into the garden of Eden.

http://www.piney.com/John.16.Spirit.Reprove.Sin.html

So, the whiney people are also forcast in The Book of Enoch are lost souls trying to cause others to fall from grace to make them feel some comfort. They THINK that they are bright bulbs when you post ALL recorded history MARKING them and they cannot grasp that the Locusts (Muses) have lulled them to sleep and given them the scorpion sting of death. It isn't pretty but it is faith confirming.

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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