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Question for fellow concerned members

May 25 2010 at 11:19 PM
wordkeeper  (Login wordkeeper)
from IP address

I have read the posts on some previous threads concerning the use of the Book of Psalms to justify the use of instumental music in Christian Assemblies. My question is the following:

Is there an instance or example where an apostle participates in a Mosaic worship ritual in the Temple in Jerusalem with four other christians ?? And furthermore this apostle provided sacrifices at the end of the worship ritual.

Hint: its in the Book of Acts.

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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: Question for fellow concerned members

May 26 2010, 10:03 AM 

The situation to which wordkeeper refers is in Acts 21. Some Jews had thought Paul was telling them to forsake the Law of Moses and neither be circumcised nor keep any of the rituals therein. The people in Paul's immediate acquaintance had four men who had taken a vow. The people wanted Paul to keep the peace by observing the rituals concerning vows and by purifying himself with the four men. Then the people said to Paul: "As touching the Gentiles which believe [[that is who are Christians--BC]], we have written [and] concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from [things] offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication" (verse 25).

Being a Jew, Paul did as the people wanted. Acts 21 states that the JEWS were not required to abandon the rites of the Law of Moses, and that the GENTILES were not required to live like the Jews, meaning that the Gentiles were not obligated to keep the Law of Moses. Moreover, there was no reason for Gentiles to keep the Law of Moses, for that Law applied only to Jews. To rely on the Law of Moses for salvation, however, was to repudiate the Gospel of Christ and His sacrifice. Paul reiterated that in Gal. 5:1-6: those who justify themselves by the Law of Moses make Christ of no effect and fall from grace.

Therefore, Gentile Christians have no justification for observing any of the rituals of the Law of Moses in worship today. Since it is a historical fact that the early Christians did not use instrumental music in worship, as opposed to IM in Temple worship with the Law of Moses; and since we are told to sing and make melody in our hearts (Eph. 5:19; Col. 3:16), then IM is superfluous in worship and ADDS to God's New Testament commandment.

BTW, there is NO New Testament requirement that Psalms MUST sung with IM, and the man-made excuse of "God didn't say not to" just won't wash.

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change agent, and happy to be one.
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Re: Question for fellow concerned members

May 26 2010, 12:48 PM 

There is also nothing wrong with a Gentile taking part along with Jewish Christians in honoring God with those "old traditions". Paul would not condemn the participant, just the one binding his thinking on others. GET OVER IT and start serving and stop harming others.
change agent.

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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: Question for fellow concerned members

May 26 2010, 3:38 PM 

Notice that in the passages from Acts 21, when Paul as a Jew participated with the four Jewish men who paid their vow, he made an offering unto the Lord [surely a burnt offering]. So if Gentiles are going to practice the Law of Moses along with Jews in Christianity today, then surely they will burn sacrifices, just as the Jews did in Paul's day. But since sacrifices are no longer necessary, Christ having paid the final sacrifice, then there is no reason for any Gentile to practice Jewish customs, for those customs are not binding on Gentiles. Yet change agents, who are not about to advocate burnt offerings, would still have Gentiles SELECT certain practices that were associated with the Mosaic Law, such as instrumental music, and transfer them to Christianity to be practiced every Sunday. That's actually getting IM into Christian worship through the back door.

BTW, how many churches of Christ routinely observe Passover, the Feast of Tabernacles, Hanukkah, Yom Kippur, Rosh Hashanah, and other Jewish holidays and festivals, not to mention all the dietary laws and other restrictions imposed by the Mosaic Law? Why should they? Christ nailed the Mosaic Law to His cross (Col. 2:14). So why practice rituals that are now obsolete?

Now if the change agents want to build their own churches and practice two Covenants, then let them do so; but not at the expense of disrupting exisitng churches that choose NOT to practice the Law of Moses.

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Clarification please

May 26 2010, 3:25 PM 

"then IM is superfluous in worship and ADDS to God's New Testament commandment"

Dr. Crump, in another thread you referred to IM as an "aid" and now you refer to IM as an "addition". Does "aid" and "addition" mean the same thing when referring to IM?

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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: Clarification please

May 26 2010, 3:50 PM 

I was referring to Dave, who believes that IM is OK because he thinks it is an "aid," just as he thinks of the PA system as an "aid." God never issued any commands about incidentals such as PA systems, but He did make a command about vocal music; thus, to compare IM with a PA system is to compare apples to oranges. In reality, IM is an ADDITION to God's command to use vocal music. The PA system, however, does not violate any of God's existing commands about worship.

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Dont Mind Helping You at All W. Crump

May 27 2010, 2:48 PM 

In reality, IM is no more an ADDITION to God's command to use vocal music than a PA system, for they are both AIDS, and a PA system, in no way, violates any of God's existing commands about worship. Whether you use a PA system or a piano to aid the singing, the singing still occurs.

Nothing to it. No apples. No oranges.

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(Login wordkeeper)

Re: Question for fellow concerned members

May 26 2010, 6:00 PM 

The standard cofc doctrine is that once the church age began the OT worship and rituals were done away with. Well as this text implies that its not that simple. During the first century the Christian Church had no New Testament and no hymnals or songbooks. The worship practices were very similar to Judaism, except that Christians confessed that Jesus is the Christ and Messiah.

In fact, in early second century there was great concern among Jewish rabbis that a person could walk into an assembly and not immediately know whether it was authentic Jewish or part of the new cult Christianity. The rabbis then implemented a thirteenth confession against Jesus and his followers along with other offshoots of Judaism that sprung up in the first century.

First century christianity was a lot more jewish than what some historians have led us to believe.

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Ken Sublett
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May 26 2010, 10:53 AM 

No, and neither do you: its calling reading 101a.

Paul was never IN the temple! He would have been killed.
Jesus was never IN th temple! He would have been killed.

Paul was never IN the Inner Court where they slaughtered types of Jesus Christ with loud EXORCISM noises.

If after God had sent you fair warning that the enemy was waiting for you, would YOU go into a hostile Mosque to preach the TRUE way to be cleansed?

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Wrong Again Ken

May 26 2010, 3:54 PM 

Ken says that Jesus wasn't in the Temple. Look to what the Word says instead....
Luke 2
25And behold, there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon, and this man was just and devout, waiting for the Consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. 26 And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lords Christ. 27 So he came by the Spirit INTO the temple. And when the parents brought INthe Child Jesus, to do for Him according to the custom of the law,

So when they did not find Him, they returned to Jerusalem, seeking Him. 46 Now so it was that after three days they found Him IN the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions.

Noticed where I capitalized IN and INTO and how both of them are followed by "the temple?"

Now tell us Ken how this is only the temple courts, but not the inner holy of holies, etc., etc.
It is STILL the TEMPLE. Notice who was there WITH Jesus? Jewish teachers, a rabbi or two, eh Ken?
Rabbi priests perhaps? Priests from the TEMPLE? Yes! Yes!
Go back to your notes Ken.

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Ken Sublett
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Not ready for prime time! Maybe prime barbecue.

May 26 2010, 5:38 PM 

When he went INTO the HIERON he went into thee precincts: there were seven levels of sanctity just like a Ziggurat because the temple WAS a Ziggurat.

One of the FACTOIDS of the sacrificial system--although it had been officially dead for centuries--was that when you heard the SOUNDS and you were NOT of the tribe of Levi and NOT on duty as one of the PARASITE SECT, were put OUTSIDE of the GATES: that's where Paul said you would have to go to find Jesus. If you remained you would be KILLED

If you hear music in the Holy Place (of Church Architecture) and get a clappy feeling, you may already be infected. No: neither Paul nor Jesus could go where modern musicators dare to tread because the Father HIDES Himself from the Wise: Sophists meaning preachers, singers and instrument player Jesus called hypocrites.

G2411 hieron hee-er-on' Neuter of G2413 ; a sacred place, that is, the entire precincts (whereas G3485 denotes the central sanctuary itself) of the Temple (at Jerusalem or elsewhere):temple.

The NAOS was the Holy Places. Naos is like MIND: if a singer or instrument player went CLOSE to a holy place (our spirit) they would be executed.


G3485 naos nah-os' From a primary word nai (to dwell); a fane, shrine, temple:shrine, temple. Compare G2411 .

Don't feel silly: your method of Bible understanding is EXACTLY what they would have LEARNED you if you got a Phd from LU.

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Change Agent
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May 27 2010, 12:41 PM 

Ken's explanation is that of a lawyer, run from him and his twisting of scripture to mean what he wants it to mean. Your last post Ken was a superb example of exactly what Jesus warned us of. Woe to you.

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Not Feeling Silly Ken

May 27 2010, 2:37 PM 

You see Ken, I stay away from the cloak and dagger, like you choose to embrace daily. You tell us to "speak that which is written," yet you continue to look to words OUTSIDE (not INSIDE like Jesus was INSIDE the temple) the 66 books. You then have the audacity to tell us that the KJV translators didn't even know what they were talking about. Even if the Sacred 66 books aren't enough, then you have to go searching through greek mythology for your pan flute god. You can stroll over to the computer from the couch and type all you want, but until you can find a key on that keyboard that has a conscience, you might as well just stay on the couch.

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