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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: And these three are [agree in] one

June 11 2010, 8:04 AM 

Thanks, Donnie.

Now I'm going to play devil's advocate. Consider this passage:

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost (Matt. 28:19 KJV).

That passage mentions three names (I'll refrain from using "persons" or "entities" for the moment): the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. In churches of Christ, before we baptize someone, we usually say, "I now baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost/Spirit" (at least that's what the minister said just before I was baptized).

Some people would get the impression from the passage above that there are indeed three separate, divine "persons"; hence, the "Trinity." Other people might reason, "Well, if Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all one and the same as God, why not just baptize in the name of 'God,' which would include all three of His entities?" How do you answer those people?

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In the 'NAME OF' the Father, Son, Holy Spirit

June 11 2010, 11:58 AM 

  1. Actually, there is only one name mentioned in the text: THE NAME "of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

  2. It is also scriptural to baptize in one name as in: "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)

    "[12] But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. [16] (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)" [Acts 8]

    "And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord." (Acts 10:48)

    "When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." (Acts 19:5)

    "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." (Acts 22:16)

  3. The spirit of man is not another person of man. The spirit OF Jesus Christ (of the Father ... of the Lord ... of God) is one spirit but is not another person in the Godhead. What is it about us that by a mere mention of the Spirit or the Holy Spirit, we're conditioned to automatically think or perceive a "third person" in the Godhead? No, we're not trying to minimize or marginalize the importance of the mind or the spirit OF our Lord. Of course, not.

What we need to do is, perhaps, refer to "the spirit of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:19) more often. Oh, yeah, Jesus Christ has a mind or spirit after all -- the same spirit that our heavenly Father has (cf. Matt. 10:20). The truth that either the Father or His Son "has a spirit" or mind should help us in our understanding that that spirit is not another person in the Godhead. The gospel of John (as well as the other gospels) clearly explains the constant communication between the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. Where was the "Holy Spirit [thought of as the 3rd person in the Trinity creed] in the constant communication between the Father and the Son? Huh?

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Re: And these three are [agree in] one

June 11 2010, 10:40 AM 

1 Jon 5
"And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one"

William Crump, even though you might not understand it, that Scripture explains it better than any of us could.
THREE being ONE. Look at
I have never said anything differently.

God in THREE persons.....
Galatians 3
16The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one PERSON, who is Christ.

Again....both song versions are correct.

Speaking of keeping it simple, Donnie, you said....

How do you envision God's Holy Spirit?"

Actually Donnie, you need to answer that one. If you ever understand the answer, then believe me, your fighting with others and God will cease.

Remember Phil always talking about being Spirit led, and not worrying so much about rules? He didn't always sound fundamental, but one thing he did say that you may never comprehend.

The Spirit isn't something you hold in your hands and see. You are much like the research faculty here at the university. They want to see God in front of their face, so they can study Him, and measure Him like a molecule.

John 4
23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

John 5
36"I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the very work that the Father has given me to finish, and which I am doing, testifies that the Father has sent me. 37And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

You are a part of the worng generation Donnie. Your generation was those of the Pharisees who craddled and upheld words out of a book. They couldn't understand something not seen.

Donnie, you fail to understand that the Spirit is alive and lives in us. You, like the Pharisees want a sign. Here's your sign.
Romans 8
9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Donnie, that woulld be the KJV, just for your clarification.

You said over at Faithsite that God's Sprit does not live in us.
Not only does Romans 8 say that God's Spirit lives in us, but also that of Christ.

From John 5 and Romans 8 we see that not only does the Spirit live in us, but the Spirit is a living presence. John 5 says that it isn't just knowing the Word, but having part in it.
Donnie, you can't be a part of Christ if you don't allow His Spirit in.

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Yes, the spirit of Christ indwells the Christian

June 11 2010, 1:08 PM 

Wow, Dave. The number "three" must be a magic number for you. "Voila!!! Three entities automatically means 'three persons' in the Trinity doctrine."

No, Dave. YOUR idea of God's Spirit is that "He [masculine] must be a very quiet person in the Trinity." But look at the numerous references [even in the book of John alone] to the Father and His Son Jesus Christ in constant communication between each other (but in the absence of the "third person"?).

-- My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
-- ... that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me....
-- This commandment have I received of my Father.
-- I and my Father are one (10:30)
-- In my Father's house are many mansions....
-- If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also....
-- ... as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
-- ... and many more....

FYI, I believe in all those passages you quoted. (Let's correct one false accusation: I've never said: "God's Spirit does not indwell me.") That's why I asked you: "How do you envision God's Holy Spirit?"

How laughable when you said about me: "You're a part of the wrong generation, Donnie." Different generation? Yes. Wrong generation? No.

I'm a part of the pre-Nicene Creed, pre-Roman Catholic Church, pre-papacy generation.

You're a part of the Emperor Constantine, Council-of-Nicea, papacy generation. You're also a part of the Charismatic Movement generation or crowd that believes in the direct influence of the Holy Spirit upon the Christian. Who knows that before long, you will be "speaking in tongues" or be believing that the apostolic miracles of healing exist today.

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Re: Yes, the spirit of Christ indwells the Christian

June 11 2010, 1:34 PM 

From John 5 and Romans 8 we see that not only does the Spirit live in us, but the Spirit is a living presence. John 5 says that it isn't just knowing the Word, but having part in it.

Wrong! One of the certainties of historic scholarship (not in a modern once-Christian college) is that Paul NEVER uses the word spirit to speak of The Holy Spirit as a person.

the spirit LIVES IN is not the same as

The spirit (mind) OF Christ which is the mind OF God and there is only ONE God.
Those who think of the Spirit as a person (John Mark Hicks, LU, NACC) STATE CLEARLY that the spirit person has HIS OWN CENTER OF CONSCIOUSNESS. The Spirit MUST have his on spirit and his own spirit must have his on spirit to infinity.

Donnie, sorry, but even those with multiple Phds missed PREPOSITIONS 101A. You may have to set up a roving Workshop to teach all of the Greek Geeks what means spirit OF a person. Maybe a book:

"How Prepositions can Change your Life and Attract more Girls."

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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: Yes, the spirit of Christ indwells the Christian

June 11 2010, 1:46 PM 

Donnie said to Dave: "Who knows that before long, you will be 'speaking in tongues' or be believing that the apostolic miracles of healing exist today."

As I recall from FaithSite, Dave at the time believed that people can miraculously heal others today. I think Dave cited passages like Mark 11:22-24 and John 14:13-14, which imply that if you ask anything in Jesus' name, it will be done. Of course, Jesus was speaking to His apostles at the time. Dave implied that "anyone" with faith could heal people. Since Dave seemed to imply that he had the "faith," I challenged him to go to a place like St. Jude Children's Hospital in Memphis, TN, and heal every sick child there. Well, St. Jude's Hospital still has sick children, because Dave never healed anyone there. I certainly haven't heard of him healing anyone anywhere else. The fact of the matter is that neither Dave nor anyone else today has miraculous power to heal anyone, because such power ceased when the apostles, upon whom Jesus had bestowed such power, died.

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Thank you

June 11 2010, 3:16 PM 

Ken, William,, Donnie....thank you.
I really mean that too.
When I can get all three of you to chime in against me I know that I am speaking the Truth.
Donnie, at Faithsite, you did say that God's Spirit does not live in us. I will not go as far as calling you a liar, but you did say it.
You three continue to rave about each other and try to slander me. You need each other to lean on. Just like the Pharisees. Always in a group, or should I say a pack (like wolves) to give Jesus and His disciples a hard far from the Truth and always trying to trip Jesus up.
William Crump, when I see you change the subject and run from the Truth such as you did in your last post I just smile....and I understand.
Ken, I am not the one who uses words outside of the sacred 66 books to bolster my opinion. You use Enoch, and greek mythology, where a confident man content with God's Inspired Word would never do such. It has nothing to do with being scholary, but with bing one who listens to God instead of wanting to hear himself talk.
I am off to Bible camp for a week boys....teaching the children to trust in His Spirit to guide them in all things, studying the Word daily. You gents hold down the fort, and I will be back soon to help you with whatever you need.

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You're welcome

June 11 2010, 3:53 PM 


I did not say it. Period.

Now, if you said, "God's Spirit resides in the physical body of a Christian," I would have to disagree.

Here's one of the passages I use in reference to the indwelling of the spirit of God/Christ: "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Rom. 8:9). Again, no indication of a "third/another person."

Have a great Bible study with the children! Please stress the importance of "the word of Christ."

"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." You're not having a mechanical worship with those musical objects (dulcimer, timbrel and dance, sackbut, etc.), are you?

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power of prayer

June 14 2010, 4:39 PM 

Dr. Crump, do you believe that a sick child at St. Jude's hospital can be healed by God as the result of a Christian's prayer to God for that child?

Dr. Crump, do you believe today that God answers some prayers in a supernatural way?

I am just curious how a Christian physician views the power of prayer. I am not making an argument.

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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: power of prayer

June 14 2010, 6:56 PM 

Let's just say that anyone can pray to God that He will heal a sick person, child or adult. If it is God's will that the sick person be healed, then He will do so in His own good time. I do not believe that God has given anyone any special, personal, miraculous power or "the touch" to heal the sick, as many so-called TV "faith healers" claim. I believe the latter are shams. As I said earlier, I believe that miraculous healings by the apostles as recorded in the New Testament ceased when the apostles died. Jesus had personally empowered them to heal the sick, but that power ended when the apostles died. Only God Himself can perform miracles that defy modern medicine today, if it is His will.

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Power of prayer and healing even without prayer

June 14 2010, 9:59 PM 


I'm sure that you're aware that healing of the sick has been going on for centuries and centuries, with or without prayer. In Matt. 5:45 it says, "That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust."

There is nothing wrong with praying for healing and in believing in the power of prayer. James 5:16 -- "... pray one for another, that ye may be healed."

But this is not the issue: (1) that healing had occurred even BEFORE the apostles were bestowed upon the supernatural power to heal; or (2) that healing occurs now with or WITHOUT PRAYER.

The issue rather is that: Are the modern televangelists bestowed with the same supernatural power (as the apostles) did to heal all manners of sicknesses and diseases?

So, before going further with the discussion, do you agree with that premise just stated?

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Re: Power of prayer and healing even without prayer

June 14 2010, 11:18 PM 

Donnie, my questions to Dr. Crump were only pertaining to the "power of prayer". The questions were directed to Dr. Crump because a physician is sometimes in an unique position to determine healings or miracles that could only be FROM God. I was asking if God answered prayers as I believe sometimes He does.

Donnie, to answer your question, I do not believe in the supernatural healing powers of the modern day televangelists.

Sorry for the confusion.

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Ken Sublett
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Signs of the Times?

June 16 2010, 8:56 PM 

Update on Revelation 8 in light of the cracking up of the oil leaks and the CLEAR SIGNS in sight, sound and smell as women move into the holy places as "fire starters" or "musical ministers for Apollo, Abaddon or Apollyon."

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