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Minimal Madness from Musical Mistresses

June 3 2010 at 3:31 PM
Ken Sublett  (no login)
from IP address 67.142.130.38

According to Wikipedia on the Restoration movement

75% of the congregations and 87% of the membership are mainline
25% others
None Institutional 2,500
No Separate Bible Class 1,100
One Cup 550
Mutual Edification 130

So, if you do them math (Donnie) you can calculate the total number of congregations any of which I could attend and be accepted if I did not try to upset their views.

Out of that number the ones who have been diverted to instruments as a separate (divided) assembly has been very tiny. Give three cheers for the preachers, elders, purple haired ladies, CM and piney.com.

I have been working with another large group which refused to go instrumental but compromised with singing groups. Members will be fighting even this bowing to Baal and allowing the hypocritic arts and artists to hog the place of Jesus Christ and His Word.

 
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AuthorReply
Donnie Cruz
(no login)
99.177.249.211

Congregational Firm Foundation Underestimated by Musical Mistresses

June 3 2010, 5:56 PM 

A really interesting report/observation by Wikipedia!!!

Despite the very minor differences in those "congregational" issues, churches of Christ worldwide are still united. An extremist congregation might call itself "One-Cup Church of Christ" -- but I know of no one by that church name. Another extremist might call itself "No-Separate-Bible-Class Church of Christ" -- but I know of no one by that church name.

The 18,000+/- congregations worldwide are simply "churches of Christ." Now, we cannot argue the fact that there have been attempts by instrumental music enthusiasts to subvert the church with their acquired view of being just like "the other nations." Yes, in the process, a few congregations [very minimal in number] have been diverted. About 20 of them?

Yes, I've done the math -- some 99.88888% has refused to go along with the piano flow. Thanks to the elders and leaders who are firm and supportive of the truth, who are loyal to Christ and His church, who do not easily succumb to cultural and social influences and "peer" pressures. Some of the congregations [with weak leaders] that have drifted [at no fault of the members] have affiliated with either the Christian Church or the Community Church. Just check out the Willow Creek Association to see which congregations have affiliated with that group. So, overall, churches of Christ are virtually non-instrumental.

Regardless of what they do at the annual Tulsa Musical Workshop. And regardless of what and how Max Lucado and Rick Atchley, et al, teach and say and do.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Outside the United States: churches of Christ

June 8 2010, 5:37 PM 

Revised stats:

Most members of the church of Christ live outside the United States. Surprised? There are more members of the church in Africa and India alone than in the United States, in approximately 16,000 congregations.

There are more than 100 congregations in the Philippines. Church growth and influences are quite strong in Central and South America.

Restoration Movement groups from Great Britain, historically, were more influential than those from the United States in the early development of the movement in Australia and New Zealand.

There are approximately 40,000 congregations worldwide, with most of the churches of Christ outside the United States. There is no known congregation of the church of Christ outside the U.S. that uses musical devices in the assembly. As mentioned earlier, some 20 congregations in the U.S. partially or wholly use musical instrumental objects in their assemblies -- some have affiliated with the Christian Church [instrumental music, anyway]; some have associated themselves with the Community Church; while others stubbornly remain in the fellowship.

So, with 20 of the 40,000 churches of Christ worldwide into implementing "mechanical music" devices in their "spiritual worship," the percentage of congregations shying away from mechanical worship is even greater.

It is 99.95% -- but it is virtually 100% when the tiny group of instrumentalist congregations are "at home" with the Christian Church or associating themselves with "the other nations." It is a shame that the decision of weak and succumbing leaders of a congregation would prevail even when members object.

 
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Ken Sublett
(no login)
67.142.130.48

A&M link

June 8 2010, 7:10 PM 

Donnie, I have added your stats to my quick "requested" review of the A&M Church of Christ.

http://www.piney.com/A.and.M.Church.Of.Christ.Instrumental.html#Revised

Good numbers. Some very Bible-literate people have decided to stand in the gap and fight. Already, the "leaders" are pointing to anyone who objects as unloving a divisive.

 
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Sonny
(no login)
99.186.93.107

Re: Outside the United States: churches of Christ

August 30 2011, 10:03 PM 

Brother Cruz,

Most every C of C in Australia IS instrumental.

-Sonny

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Outside the United States: churches of Christ

September 4 2011, 1:54 AM 

Sonny,

There are still congregations within the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ religious group that have retained the name "Church of Christ" but are not affiliated with the churches of Christ.

 
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Sonny
(no login)
99.186.93.107

Re: Outside the United States: churches of Christ

September 6 2011, 12:18 AM 

Brother, they still call themselves a Church of Christ. You stated that only a few Churches of Christ use instruments and practically none overseas. This is incorrect data. The majority of "Churches of Christ" in Australia DO use instruments. Only you are not including them. They do not call themselves Christian Church or Disciples of Christ. They call themselves Church of Christ. (Yes, I am familiar with the history of the 3 groups.)

I believe you want to skew the data to fit your agenda. It does not matter because they are Christians in the Lord's eyes and one day soon this will all become clear and many of our brethren (undoubtedly with pure motives, such as yourself) will realize how much time you wasted on Christians who use instruments when you could have been reaching "the lost."

Yesterday I had a Bible study with an adult man on his porch who has a very rough and irreligious background. We are studying every other Sunday afternoon. I taught him the Great Commission among other verses yesterday, and we finished with prayer. In two weeks we will study again, and I hope he is becoming a follower of Jesus, and to soon baptize him into Christ for the remission of his sins.

God has no problem with respectfully and lovingly challenging false teachers. The problem is that you are wrongfully identifying people as such (based on instruments). Furthermore, this method of utilizing your website for such purposes is not only failing to reaching the lost, but is likely turning them away as they are not mature enough to understand the arguments. Plus, this site is being divisive to the brotherhood because you are not going to people directly first, followed by going to the elders/congregation where they teach and preach (per Matthew 18).

I believe in the grace of God, and pray for your conscience and soul. I believe your motives are pure. I believe your decisions and actions pertaining to this site are sinful. I pray to one day come to this site and for it to be no more, or to have a letter of apology and repentance.

-Sonny

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.203.119

Re: Outside the United States: churches of Christ

September 6 2011, 1:07 AM 

Many people who believe in Jesus but who have never been baptized still call themselves "Christians," when, by Christ's own requirements for salvation, they are NOT Christians.

Likewise, a congregation may call itself "church of Christ" when it is really not. In the case of so-called "churches of Christ" in Australia and New Zealand, most of them are actually affiliated and intertwined with the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ. According to Wikipedia:

"The period from 1875 through 1910 also saw debates over the use of musical instruments in worship, Christian Endeavor Societies and Sunday Schools. Ultimately, all three found general acceptance in the movement.[93]:51 Currently, the Restoration Movement is not as divided in Australia as it is in the United States.[93]:53 There have been strong ties with the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), but many conservative ministers and congregations associate with the Independent Christian Churches/Churches of Christ instead.[93]:53 Others have sought support from non-instrumental Churches of Christ, particularly those who felt that "conference" congregations had "departed from the restoration ideal".[93]:53"

Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churches_of_Christ#Australia_.26_New_Zealand

So it would appear that those so-called "churches of Christ" in Australia and New Zealand that have instrumental music are nothing more than bastardized congregations that have polluted themselves with the IM-toting Christian Churches/Disciples of Christ.

Regardless of whatever other names a congregation may call itself, a TRUE church of Christ congregation anywhere in the world does NOT have instrumental music.


 
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Guy
(no login)
70.250.79.142

One Cup/No Bible Classes

August 30 2011, 3:13 PM 

We use only one cup and one loaf in our communion service every Lords Day and also have no bible classes, we do not use instrumental music during worship service. There are congregations all over the US and abroad that worship this way, according the pattern set before us in the scriptures. If you would like to learn more about why we worship this way, please contact mcalisterfam@att.net

 
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Ken SublettF
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
207.65.198.127

Good post, Guy.

August 30 2011, 4:03 PM 

We use only one cup and one loaf in our communion service every Lords Day and also have no bible classes, we do not use instrumental music during worship service. There are congregations all over the US and abroad that worship this way, according the pattern set before us in the scriptures. If you would like to learn more about why we worship this way, please contact mcalisterfam@att.net

I grew up in a two-glass congregation. I believe G.C. Brewer takes credit for finding a market for the individual cups. People love to slander one cuppers but I have to remind them that using individual cups is what divided churches: many "high" church groups still use one cup.

People have to be reminded that the Sunday School Movement began as a way to take the education away from the elders. Standard Publishing still wants your church so they can sell song books and ss literature. As it turned out the women took the elder's role away from them: Isaiah 3 warned about that.

While individual classes sounds wise, the result has been a female-dominated group from the cradle to "college class." "Institutions" again sound so wise but if you build one Satan will take it away from you.

I believe that you can make the case that Jesus had the disciples "portion" out the juice before they actually drank. But, again, when they love to speak of division in the non-instrumental church of christ, they miss the point that I could probably be accepted by any of them: I would not be so presumptuous as to try to force a change and everyone would be happy. The instrumental groups assuredly EXCLUDE most of the Church of Christ.

In a blog, a preacher was in great distress when his 2 year old asked him how far away the moon was. He thought of all of the laws of gravitey and decided not to tell the kid. I told him to be as smart as the kid and tell him it was about 236,000 miles or so. That's what the kid asked and now he knows more than the preacher did before. That is where the classes have insulted their kids and their charge from God. I believe that if you read a whole thought pattern from the Bible they will understand "what it says." In time, the whole meaning will develop. On the other hand, kids can go away from college and think that Moses saved the people from the flood in the Ark of the Covenant. happy.gif


 
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Joe Spivy
(no login)
173.81.45.219

What Divided Churches?

September 5 2011, 9:12 PM 

In the last post this statement was made: "I have to remind them that using individual cups is what divided churches: many 'high' church groups still use one cup." I'm not really interested in one vs. multiple cups (though some may be and I'd be willing to read what they had to say) - I've been in assemblies where both of these practices were observed.

I doubt those who post here normally appeal to the practice of 'high church groups' for guidance in practice and doctrine. Of course, anyone's practice or doctrine should rest on what is revealed in the Word. One difficulty is one man's 'approved example' is another man's 'incidental.'

Are we comfortable with taking the position that whatever was practiced before (in our experience or historical stream) is what is right or best? Is it 'changing' a practice that divides or is it an insistence that 'what is old is better' that divides?

Brother Sublett, could you provide some historical documentation for the statement, "People have to be reminded that the Sunday School Movement began as a way to take the education away from the elders"? Could you also elaborate on the role taken over by women in churches? In what sense have you seen churches where it could be said "women rule over them" (Isaiah 3:12)?

In what sense do the "instrumental groups assuredly EXCLUDE most of the Church of Christ"? This is not a statement that I am unable to see a difference or that I agree with instrumental music, but rather a question about your observation or experience of their exclusionary practices concerning members of the churches of Christ?

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
207.65.198.61

stuff?

September 6 2011, 12:20 AM 

Brother Sublett, could you provide some historical documentation for the statement, "People have to be reminded that the Sunday School Movement began as a way to take the education away from the elders"? Could you also elaborate on the role taken over by women in churches? In what sense have you seen churches where it could be said "women rule over them" (Isaiah 3:12)?

Look up The Sunday School Movement under Google. The lust to take over churches of Christ began by agents sent out by Standard Publishing Company into Tennessee. Joining the group normally means that you will buy song books and Sunday School literature prepared by them and therefore they are in control. There was some kind of shady deal connected with their acquiring Alexander Campbell's Song books to which they added notes.

Most churches are effeminate and no ten males could be forced to get out of bed on Sundan morning and put together what we call a worship service meaning "hard bondage" with the Jews. Rhetorical styles of speaking, sissy songs and singing is effeminate: when you move, says Niceta, from speak or say to sing it is both the mark and cause of the effeminate. Early observers of the early frontier said that the worship was a conspiracy between women and disenfranchised men." Teaching is the Biblical mandate of a church with the elders in charge: children now are under the domination from cradle to the college class.

The White Paper used to "persuade" the elders at Max Lucado's church was prepared by a female. I have reviewed it. Of course, she like the men think that if you collect all of the verses with an instrument in it it is proven that God commanded instruments for the church. It is certain that none of the writers have ever gone beyond collecting verses out of a lexicon and could never have read the context. The option is that they didn't NEED to read if they could lie with enough coercive force.

In what sense do the "instrumental groups assuredly EXCLUDE most of the Church of Christ"? This is not a statement that I am unable to see a difference or that I agree with instrumental music, but rather a question about your observation or experience of their exclusionary practices concerning members of the churches of Christ?

The instrumentalists knew that they planned--with a high hand--to impose instruments into peaceable churches. They knew that they offended a bunch of people but calculated that they could make up the loss when they added instruments. No Bible-literate disciple would endure any kind of instruments when Jesus comes to be the only Teacher when the elders "teach that which has been taught."

The instrumentalists preach liberty but that only means you can attend and put something in the not-commanded collection plate. No, you cannot preach against instruments. No, you cannot teach a class.

With the modern spawn of promise keepers and the purpose driven cult they CALCULATE (re Rick Atchley) that they can loose half of the "owners" but make up the difference jiffy quick if their music turns tricks on route 666. Rick couldn't help boast about how they had inclucated the instrumental view into children trusting parents sent to "youth meetings" with the goal, he says, of "destroying this movement.'

If you toss a skunk into my house you KNOW that you are excluding me. Instrumentalists claim they can worship (whatever that be) without instruments. They know that they are exclucing half of the body by imposing instruments.

The folly of the people is that they blame those forced to leave with SOWING DISCORD. It happened to J.W.McGarvey who was not allowed to preach against the addition in his own congregation.

There is NO music in any godly worship in the entire Bible: if you cant grasp that then you do not know the meaning of ekklesia or synagogue or know the meaning of a DISCIPLE.

 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Here We Go Again

September 6 2011, 8:24 AM 

Someone once said...."Regardless of whatever other names a congregation may call itself, a TRUE church of Christ congregation anywhere in the world does NOT have instrumental music."

That declaration is false, spewed forth from the mouth of a false teacher. Instrumental music is not/nor ever will be a factor, per the Word of God, in deciding whether a church is a TRUE church of Christ. This has already been proven time and time again by the Word of God.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Here We Go Again

September 6 2011, 10:55 AM 

The first statement is factual per God's truth. You will NEVER find documented the operation of musical machines in the assembly of saints in existence anywhere during the apostolic era and among Christians in the early centuries.

The entire second paragraph, your own declaration of independence from God's Word, is not the truth -- you certainly fabricated that even while there are other criteria that determine the true church of Christ Jesus.

My advice to you, Dave, is for you to join the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ religion, even though you're not likely to do so. They have everything you need, plus more. In that church you will be freer than ever to express your love for the guitar, sackbut, organ or whatever musical device you prefer.

 
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R*
(no login)
98.81.93.82

Maximum Madness from Men

September 6 2011, 11:40 AM 

So it would appear that those so-called "churches of Christ" in Australia and New Zealand that have instrumental music are nothing more than bastardized congregations that have polluted themselves with the IM-toting Christian Churches/Disciples of Christ.

Regardless of whatever other names a congregation may call itself, a TRUE church of Christ congregation anywhere in the world does NOT have instrumental music.

***********************************************

Dr. Crump, those are strong words from a mere man. You are speaking for God where God has not spoken. For your own good you may want to qualify your statement with "in my opinion". JMHO



 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Civil

September 6 2011, 11:46 AM 

REMINDER: A civil discussion up to this point.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.204.80

Be Careful What You Call "Madness"

September 6 2011, 3:45 PM 

That I am a mere man is true. That the TRUE Church of Christ does not have IM is a true statement; it is not an "opinion." The TRUE Church of Christ does not observe what Christ never authorized in the New Testament, as far as doctrinal issues are concerned. For example, music IS a doctrinal issue, because Christ addressed it. Christ through Paul authorized singing (vocal music); He did not authorize any other forms of music. Likewise, the Lord's Supper IS a doctrinal issue, because Christ addressed it. Christ authorized bread and fruit of the vine; He did not authorize pizza and soft drinks. Baptism for salvation and remission of sins IS a doctrinal issue, because Christ addressed it. Christ said that those who believe AND are baptized shall be saved. He also commanded through Peter that we repent AND be baptized FOR remission of sins; He gave us no option about baptism. Yet many folks wrongly believe they are "saved by faith alone" and regard baptism as entirely optional. On the other hand, PA systems and other non-essentials are NOT doctrinal issues, because Christ never addressed them. Yet many people insist on mixing, comparing, and confusing doctrinal issues (those that Christ addressed) with non-essential issues (those that Christ never addressed).

Therefore, as far as music is concerned, those congregations that embrace IM yet insist on calling themselves "churches of Christ" are FALSE and deceive the public. Those churches can whitewash and perfume themselves with whatever name appeals to the gullible public, but they will NEVER be TRUE churches of Christ until they ditch the instruments and embrace the doctrinal issues that Christ authorized in the New Testament. Now, those ARE strong words, because the TRUTH is STRONG.

 
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R*
(no login)
98.81.118.145

Be Careful What You Say

September 6 2011, 6:04 PM 

Dr. Crump, if you elect to condemn Churches of Christ for using IM and go as far to call them bastardized congregations that are false, I can't help you. It's between you and the Lord. In my opinion that is something to think about.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.210.137

The Truth Is Very Hard for Change Agents to Swallow

September 6 2011, 9:41 PM 

Since "to bastardize" something is to debase or corrupt it (see dictionary.com), a "bastardized congregation" is one that is debased and corrupt--one that does not following the doctrinal teachings of Christ in the New Testament. It is also a congregation that holds as doctrines the teachings of men. Therefore, any church of Christ congregation that espouses IM when it is not authorized in the New Testament is, by hard definition, a "bastardized congregation." Perhaps "debased and corrupt" sounds better on the ears, but the meaning remains the SAME, nonetheless. Sometimes, the truth is VERY hard for change agents to swallow.

 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

GOD is in Control!

September 6 2011, 2:18 PM 

The statement that I gave is factual per God's truth. You will NEVER find documented the mention of musical machines in the assembly of saints every being condemned anywhere during the apostolic era and among Christians in the early centuries. Also you will NEVER find a PA system ever mentioned in existence anywhere during the apostolic era and among Christians in the early centuries. Many such items that we employ today to worship God were not used during the first century worship of God. Does that mean that a PA system is wrong? Certainly not.

My entire second paragraph, my own declaration of the Truth of God's Word, is just that....what God wants instead of what men, like you, want.

My advice to you, Donnie, is like what Sonny gave to you the other day. Give up living for satan and repent. Give this site to God and you and this site will flourish. As of now, you are in danger of hell fire. Notice where I said that you are in danger....not lost....as of yet. While your heart still beats, you have time to do what is right.
What you want is not of importance Donnie.....what God wishes is everything!

 
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