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Ken Sublettt
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
207.65.198.63

Sorry you missed Synagogue 101

September 6 2011, 3:16 PM 

Christ (the Rock) established the Church of Christ in its first state to quarantine the godly people from the always-pagan sabbath worship which included the Jews.

If you cannot read then maybe predestination works?

[linked image]

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Dave Is Awakened Only When the Trumpet Is Silenced

September 6 2011, 5:31 PM 

Dave,

The modern PA system did not exist in the New Testament era. Even if there were other forms of PA systems.

On the other hand, musical instruments have been in existence ever since man, including David the skilled musician, invented them.

Know what? While they were IN EXISTENCE in the New Testament era, there is NO RECORD in the apostolic writings and from those of the "early church fathers" of their being played in the assembly.

I don't need your condemnation of hellfire as my destination. That can never play a role in presenting a valid argument from your distorted mind. (You've been warned of that before as that is a malicious statement emanating from someone with very weak arguments and nothing else worthwhile to present.)

I know when the truth speaks for itself. You and I are both obligated to know and speak the truth. That's what God wishes from all of us.

 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Keep on Keeping On...

September 6 2011, 2:25 PM 

ADDITIONAL REMINDER....this is your site Donnie.....do what you want.....you always have.
Change, edit, delete....whatever will further your agenda....kind of like the way you handle the very Word of God. If there is something there that will not lend to your way of thinking and traditions.....deny it and keep discussion away from it.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Keep on Keeping On...

September 6 2011, 3:15 PM 

You did an excellent job with your "PARODY." Your "originality" is valued highly [LOL ... and facetiously].

There is really no need to edit your messages (unless there is malice). You certainly deserve to be heard completely.


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.249.211 on Sep 6, 2011 5:03 PM


 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

It IS What it IS

September 7 2011, 10:07 AM 

Donnie, your claim that my arguments are weak...is false. I have backed everything that I have spoke of from the Word of God. You are in danger of living the rest of your life in hell because you do exactly what you claim others do...you judge wrongly. You don't PREFER instrumental music, although you can't prove, by the Scriptures that it is sinful. You don't PREFER praise teams, clapping, the lifting of holy hands, etc., so you judge wrongly that their worship is holy entertainment.
The main problem is this, and will continue to be this....those who want to worship God differently (more spirited and lively) do not have a problem with yours and others traditions. YOU....are the one who has a problem with someone worshiping God differently (not sinful or against Scriptures). You have judged wrongly and you ARE in danger of hell fire. THIS....is what this site is all about....EVIL condemnation of others who prefer to worship (within the bounds of the Scriptures) differently.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.240.211.219

Re: It IS What it IS

September 7 2011, 9:27 PM 

Dave's title of "It IS What It IS" sounds a bit like Bill Clinton's waffling to the grand jury when he said, "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is."

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Your Logic Says "It Is" When the Scripture Says "It Is NOT" (or Vice Versa)

September 7 2011, 10:42 PM 

Dave,

1. You have backed up everything you've spoken with your own logic and philosophy. There is no directive from God to use musical objects and devices in the assembly of saints. There is also no directive from God to burn incense during the assembly of saints. To MECHANICAL MUSIC LOVERS like you and your supporters, based on YOUR logic, neither instruments nor sweet incense should affect singing. Correct, Dave? There is still singing, right, Dave? Now, tell me again, from your own logic, that you are now prepared to practice burning incense unto the Lord as you've always been prepared to blow the trumpet unto the Lord? (NOTE: There are numerous activities that YOU [Dave] can perform in the assembly without affecting singing, meaning that singing still goes on. Why don't you practice them to enhance your "worship"?)

2. Clapping [programmed, rhythmic JOY]; lifting "holy" hands [holy or unholy--what is that; men or women--or both]; praise teams or choirs -- SAVE them for later.

3. Oh, "someone worshiping God differently"? Dave, would you be interested in becoming a member of a Charismatic or Pentecostal group that believes differently from the church of Christ you claim to be a member of. The first group operates all sorts of musical devices. Perhaps, excessively, but that shouldn't matter to you, Dave -- the drums, accordion, trumpet, guitar, piano, etc. The more, the better. And speaking of "PREFERENCES" [you use this expression in your logic very frequently], the instrumental worship is one of yours, undoubtedly. Go for it, by all means. You do not have to remain in the church where you are miserable, i.e., without instrumental music.

 
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Dave
(no login)
64.234.85.24

You Get What You Ask For Sometimes

September 8 2011, 2:50 AM 

Donnie, when you talk about blowing a trumpet and burning incense, which no one has mentioned and which is isn't an issue here, we again see that you are into winning an argument and not into gaining the Truth. When you call me a mechanical music lover and I have never ever espoused such.....you are also into lying. I love a capella (which I have always stated), but will not condemn those who choose to use instruments of music.

This isn't a debate Donnie. It is LIFE!!!

The one comment by you, Donnie, was just out and out ridiculous (they pile up after a while).
You commented about me not having to remain in the church where I am miserable.
YOU, of all people, would say that about anyone else....YOU, who continually, day in and day out, slam Madison, the bride of Christ, because YOU didn't get your way with your traditions.
Donnie, YOU need to just take your ball and go home and play by yourself.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

You Asked; I Gave -- That Simple

September 10 2011, 3:33 PM 

Dave,

  1. I talk about: [a] "blowing the trumpet unto the Lord" and [b] "burning incense unto the Lord" to prove that your logic is fallacious and is not Scripture-supported.

    • Both are activities or mechanical operations: [a] by blowing and [b] by burning.
    • Both require objects: [a] the trumpet and [b] the incense.
    • Both have man's intentions: [a] to aid or enhance "worship" and [b] as odor of sweet smell odor unto the Lord.
    • Both have man-ordained attribution: [a] "musical worship" service and [b] sacrificial offering.

    You'd rather that I use the piano or organ instead of the trumpet as a musical device example. But you must realize that the trumpet is a musical instrument. Therefore, blowing the trumpet unto the Lord is as much an issue as playing the piano unto the Lord during the assembly. Get used to the idea that "blowing the trumpet unto the Lord" in the assembly [the Charismatic groups use it a lot] as an instrumental music issue.

    I'm using: [a] blowing the trumpet and [b] burning incense as a parallel illustration that neither one was ever a practice among New Testament Christians or in the church of the first century.

    The inconsistency is in your position and logic that you have the affinity for the first type of service (instrumental music), but reject the second type of sacrifice (burning incense).

    There goes your failing fallacious argument involving PREFERENCES (your own favorite form of argument).


  2. You are miserable in the church you claim to be a member of--the church that does NOT indulge in "instrumental music worship"--because you do not get your way with the papal-originated tradition. Teaching and admonishing one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs is an APOSTOLIC TRADITION (scripture-based). On the other hand, the man-invented "mechanical music service" is a PAPAL-ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH, PROTESTANT-PROPAGATED tradition (pagan-based).

    Leave the Madison congregation out of this IM debate unless it is converted into this RCC-originated IM worship. The church of Christ worldwide is the body of Christ, also His bride. Madison is only a part of that body.

    Dave, I didn't intend to upset you with substituting the trumpet for the piano or guitar. It's only to make you see that the trumpet is a musical instrument or device--lifeless and inanimate until you operate it mechanically.

 
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Dave
(no login)
64.234.85.24

Amusing to Say the Least

September 12 2011, 12:18 AM 

Donnie, you have and will never upset me. Pity for you is not the same as being upset with you. You understand?
Your response covered several items, but not this one.
I said "When you call me a mechanical music lover and I have never ever espoused such.....you are also into lying."

Please respond.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.211.38

Re: Amusing to Say the Least

September 12 2011, 1:13 AM 

If Donnie has never upset Dave, then something else must fill Dave with the rage that obviously shows in most, if not all, of Dave's posts. Hmmm... I think Dave is in denial over the fact that he gets highly upset when Donnie, or anyone else for that matter, disagrees with him.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

What Is the Definition of "Is"?

September 12 2011, 1:20 AM 

Dave,

1. Instrumental is one type of music.
2. Dave loves instrumental music.
3. Instrumental music is mechanical or mechanically operated.
4. Therefore, Dave is an instrumental music lover.
5. That is not lying.
6. The "lover" [yourself] cannot be espoused.
7. But the "loving" [of mechanical music] is espousing.

Dave, why do you detest being described as a "mechanical music lover"? There are many of us who are mechanical music lovers -- including myself.

The only difference between you as a mechanical music lover and me as a mechanical music lover is that I abide by the Scripture. The church of Christ our Lord today, as it was in the first century, does not operate musical devices in its assembly. How difficult is that to comprehend?


 
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Dave
(no login)
69.59.78.113

A lie to Cover a Lie

September 12 2011, 2:38 PM 

In YOUR context with instrumental music, IN THE WORSHIP OF GOD, you have called me a lover of instrumental music. You have lied!

Your points are as follows
Dave,

1. Instrumental is one type of music. (And???)
2. Dave loves instrumental music. (You failed to mention WHERE the instrument was/is used. This is where you have lied, because your accusations of me using or loving musical instruments have been distinctly with worshiping God)
3. Instrumental music is mechanical or mechanically operated. (See #2)
4. Therefore, Dave is an instrumental music lover. (Again, you, like a crooked lawyer or politician failed to add that when you call me an instrumental music lover it was within a worship setting.)
5. That is not lying. (It most certainly is and will always be. Donnie, it gets easier with each lie.)

6 and 7 are just nonsense, which you have become famous for.


Donnie, none of this surprises anyone. This site is wicked. To try and rectify this site with the Word you don't have any choice but to lie.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Loving Instrumental Music + in the Assembly of Saints

September 12 2011, 9:38 PM 

Dave,

I'll make myself clearer (since I did not specify your favorite musical device[s] earlier). So, now, you may fill in your favorite musical instruments as follows:

Dave is a mechanical music lover when the saints assemble for "worship services" and his favorite instrument or instruments in the assembly are: _____________, _____________, __________.

Careful, Dave. Your constant refusal to accept the truth that the church of Christ does not operate mechanical music in the assembly may be a form of lying.



 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.13.207

Re: A lie to Cover a Lie

September 12 2011, 9:49 PM 

Dave surely is making a big case out of this. Frankly, he's stumbling all over his feet trying to cover his...derrière. Most people like instrumental music...in the proper setting, of course (e.g., in theaters and concert halls). The church is NOT the proper setting for IM. Now since Dave undoubtedly likes instrumental music like most other people, if he will simply admit that the church is NOT the place to have IM, then all will be well and he can move on. But if he keeps dragging his feet and will not admit that, then we conclude that he supports IM in the church and is a denominational sympathizer who needs to leave the church of Christ. This is certainly not rocket science.

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
69.59.78.113

You Have Sinned!

September 13 2011, 6:27 AM 

Again, Donnie, this site has a reputation for evil, and it isn't a rumor, for you and others make it even more so every single day.

You said "Dave is a mechanical music lover when the saints assemble for "worship services" and his favorite instrument or instruments in the assembly are: _____________, _____________, __________. "


It isn't a matter of me choosing any musical instrument . IT IS a matter of you lying about me wanting or having a favorite instrument in the assembly. I have never personally gave a notion that I supported instrumental music in the assembly. You have many quotes from Donnie, but you know that not a one of them has said that I support musical instruments in the assembly.

When you want to do the right thing, Donnie, you know what to do. It is called 'asking for forgiveness.'
Oh, by the way, it isn't a matter of you asking forgiveness from me. I already have forgiven you and the rest of the wicked lot here. It is between you and Jesus that you need to set things straight, and the church of Christ at Madison.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: You Have Sinned! (Time to Return the Favor)

September 13 2011, 8:25 PM 

Dave,

The antonym of "support" is "negate" or "contradict."

It's really simple. If you don't negate or contradict the mechanical use of musical instruments in the assembly, you support it. In fact, you've said that soft piano enhances "worship." You even have an illogical argument about the PA system (as if it were a musical instrument) in defense of instrumental music in the assembly.

But if you really believe and now say that you've never personally given a notion that you "supported instrumental music in the assembly," then, I must personally thank you. You now agree with me, with this site, with the church of Christ worldwide, with Scripture, that inanimate, lifeless musical objects have no place or purpose when the saints gather to teach and admonish one another.

Congratulations!


With regard to the site, what's really surprising about the reputation coming from antagonists like you?

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
98.87.22.245

The Fruity Loop

September 13 2011, 9:10 PM 

Yep, Dave's pulling his old "trix" of self-righteous proclamations again: "You are cursed! You have sinned! You are wrong! Repent! Repent!"

Yadda Yadda Yadda. wink.gif

 
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Dave
(no login)
64.234.85.24

One Lie to Cover Another Lie

September 13 2011, 10:56 PM 

Donnie, you said "The antonym of "support" is "negate" or "contradict.""

Now we are into grammar again. You are correct in your grammar, but that doesn't hold me to the fact that I have to use that antonym, now does it?
Your saying that if I don't support it then I have to be against it?
Not just wrong, but foolish too. Donnie did Paul SUPPORT marriage? No, he believed that man could give more of himself if he could stayed single. Was he against, did he NEGATE/condemn marriage? No


It's really simple. I don't negate or condemn the mechanical use of musical instruments in the assembly nor those who use such, at the same time I do not personally support it. If others care to use instrumental music then the Scriptures do not condemn those who would.


Donnie, you also said "In fact, you've (me, Dave) said that soft piano enhances "worship.""

Please show in any of my response where I have said that.
Again, you have lied Donnie.
By the way Donnie.....we have been through this before, and you have made that claim several times about me. You have never proven it, and moreover you don't even make reply. You just ignore the request.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

And the Winner Is ... the Truth

September 13 2011, 11:38 PM 

Being married is not a directive. Paul was correct.

"LET the word of Christ DWELL IN YOU richly ... teaching and admonishing one another via speaking or singing -- not via playing the soft piano or blowing the trumpet" IS A DIRECTIVE. Paul was correct again.

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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