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Dave
(no login)
162.229.29.37

Wrong is Wrong

October 28 2016, 10:23 AM 

Ken, I can honestly say about you....it isn't that you are old fashioned....you're just wrong! Wrong because you still do not do what you claim to do which is to 'speak that which is written.' You claim it, then use your own and man's interpretations. You have been proven wrong time after time, and proven wrong with the very Word of God (that you claim to "speak") to show your error.

Wrong today is wrong tomorrow.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: Wrong is Wrong

October 28 2016, 11:00 AM 

I believe that I will be safe if I DO NOT Sing that which is NOT written for our learning.

If you discount everything I have COPIED from Scripture and known literature then you are INVITED with all sincerity to find "A command, example or remote inference of God calling the godly people OUT of their REST for group singing with or WITHOUT instruments."

Or find historical evidence that any kind of singing and then among the monastic fellas until long after Constantine fed unwashed pagan priests.

The Spirit OF Christ in Jeremiah defines BLASPHEMY as saying that God commanded something He did NOT command.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the WORD of God.
If it is not OF faith then it is sin. Rick Atchley having a "spirit" confess right there in the pulpit that the SPIRIT couldn't get Rick to move for 12 years.

[linked image]


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 24.151.202.16 on Oct 28, 2016 11:02 AM


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: Slip, sliding away

October 28 2016, 1:34 PM 

Dianna, it is a fact that people never tried to justify music based on the Bible. People imposed their own ideas which always sows discord. It has been noted that singing became so popular based on the Bible or the believers but upon the marketing skills of the publishers. People like the Campbells would have used Psalm books but Alexander collected a song book and sold it because he didn't accept pay. The Christian Standard got control of Campbell's song book, put 4 part notes to the simple poems and insisted that everyone should use their song books and class literature. Money was even the motive of putting simple organs in cathedrals located at "cross roads" or Fair Towns.

Cartwright argued to the contrary that only the singing of two unembellished psalms was admissible. Piping
and organs could not be defended. Furthermore, he countenanced “no other singing than is used in the reformed churches, which is in the singing of two psalms, one in the beginning and another in the ending, in a plain tune, easy both to be sung of those which have no art in singing and understanded of those which because they cannot read cannot sing with the rest of the church ...” (McGinn, 1949, p. 243). For Cartwright, there could be no additional “Hymn, or such like song, to the praise of Almighty God ...” which the Elizabethan Injunctions had specifically allowed and had even encouraged (Temperley 1979, vol. 1, p. 42). The music itself had to be simple and plain; it should never be an impediment to those who could neither read nor follow a tune.

records show that London church organs were kept in repair until around 1571. After that time it appears that organ maintenance ceased. In many parish churches around the country, the use of organs had come to a standstill (Temperley 1979, vol. 1, p. 43).138

In the Queen’s court, however, the organ remained securely established at the Chapel Royal. As an institution, the Chapel Royal is a body of clergy and musicians serving the spiritual needs of the English sovereign.

And so the controversy continued. Although it never reached the point of a satisfactory conclusion, it eventually settled into a workable arrangement. “As far as music was concerned, the Anglican ideal prevailed in cathedrals, while in parish churches the Puritan pattern of congregational metrical psalm singing was allowed to establish itself” (Temperley 1979, vol. 1, p. 42).


The "worship wars" are waged with vocal and even literal violence if you consider that they literally cast the owners out of their own "synagogue" or School of the Word.

 
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Dianna Howell
(Login dianna01)
107.77.68.52

Slip, sliding away

October 28 2016, 5:22 PM 

Since, we can now read historical evidence that singing was added in 373, and it has caused so many problems, then we should consider removing those practices that do not teach the scriptures as they were given. We are harming individuals by teaching our own opinions, and they are left to wander in ignorance. We are damaging them emotionally, physically, and more important spiritually. In my prior post I said that my purpose for singing was to teach and learn, but I have since rejected the effectiveness of unscriptural songs. There is either true or false, either black or white. We either obey or rebel. I do know that if I talk to someone about Jesus, I don't sing to them. I do believe that ignoring the material given by Christ, and inserting our material says that we don't want Him as our teacher, or we can relate it better than he can. I have learned the hard way that relying on self or mankind is spiritual suicide.

The purpose of our assembling together has been hijacked by those who don't understand that worship takes place in the "spirit".
With more scriptural knowledge comes more adherence to the Lords will for mankind. We give glory to The Lord by helping to keep knowledge of Him in this world, also by honoring him as our Teacher, by adhering to the once delivered Word.

John 4:24 (KJV)
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

1 Corinthians 2:4-5 (KJV)
And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: [5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: Slip, sliding away

October 28 2016, 6:05 PM 

Very interesting: you can pick several goodies out of that verse:

1 Corinthians 2:4-5 (KJV)
And my SPEECH and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: [5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

God does not speak to those defined by Paul:

1Cor. 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

SPEECH IS:
h3056. lo/go logos, log-os;

The Word or Logos excludes rhetoric, singing or playing instrument.

PREACHING:
g2784. kerusso, kay-roos´-so; of uncertain affinity; to herald (as a public crier), especially divine truth (the gospel): — preacher(-er), proclaim, publish.

1. A preacher is a herald and he goes and speeks.
2. He preaches the divine Truth.
3. He publishes and does not write

PERSUASIVE means that Paul preached the WORD and did not use human wisdom to convince anyone the Word does not attract:

g3982. peitho, pi´-tho; a primary verb; to convince (by argument, true or false); by analogy, to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexively or passively, to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainty): — agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) conflent, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield.

MEN'S WISDOM IS:
g4678. sophia, sof-ee´-ah; from 4680; wisdom (higher or lower, worldly or spiritual): — wisdom.
Poetic Skill:
sophia , Ion. -iē, hē, prop. A.cleverness or skill in handicraft and art in music and singing, tekhnē kai s. h.Merc.483, cf. 511; in poetry, in divination, dēmēgorikos from dēmēgoros



 
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Bill
(no login)
99.179.116.207

Re: Slip, sliding away

October 28 2016, 6:43 PM 

You can talk to someone about Jesus, or you can even sing to them about Jesus if you want; the message comes across either way. You can praise God with talk or praise Him with singing; both work just as well. You folks are making this far more complicated than it is.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: Slip, sliding away

October 28 2016, 8:44 PM 

Eph. 5:17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.
Eph. 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
Eph. 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs,
singing AND making melody IN YOUR HEART to the Lord;


I am sure that God already knows. but it is good that you keep telling Him that "the WILL OF THE LORD" doesn't matter.

 
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Bill
(no login)
99.179.116.207

Not Complicated At All

October 28 2016, 8:54 PM 

The "will of the Lord" is for us to sing and make melody in our hearts to Him, as Eph. 5:19b states. In other words, we are instructed to praise God in song. Not complicated at all. Please try to remember that. happy.gif

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: Not Complicated At All

October 28 2016, 9:36 PM 

That's fine. As long is the melody (or grace) is IN the heart or MIND then I won't have to hear it. Missed prepositions 101a again?

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: Minimal Madness from Musical Mistresses

October 28 2016, 9:58 PM 

Paul and much of Scripture is in forms of parallelism. Ephesians 5 includes antithetical parallelism. Much of the Scripture includes a semicolon in the middle and I usually put the two pieces on separate levels.

Antithetical parallelism provides an antithesis, or contrast. A verse containing antithetical parallelism will bring together opposing ideas in marked contrast. Instead of saying the same thing twice, it says one thing and then a different thing.

The antithetical parallelism in Ecclesiastes 10:2 is quite apparent:

“The heart of the wise inclines to the right,
---but the heart of the fool to the left.”

Two hearts, two directions. The wise man’s heart desires one thing, and the fool’s heart desires something completely different. Their inclinations are antithetical.

Often, but not always, antithetical parallelism is set up with the conjunction but. Here’s another example, from Proverbs 19:16:

“He who obeys instructions guards his life,
---but he who is contemptuous of his ways will die.”


Ephesians 5 is the same: if you just quote the BUT passage "sing and make melody IN the heart" meaning inaudible, it is easy and almost absolute that you IGNORE the direct command to SPEAK the Word or that which is written for our learning.

A Disciple of Christ doesn't venture opinions which is judging God by judging Scripture. Those who do not believe anymore are called PARASITES for not getting a job they believe in.

[linked image]


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 24.151.202.16 on Oct 28, 2016 10:04 PM


 
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Dave
(no login)
66.112.162.15

Sad

October 28 2016, 10:12 PM 

Matthew 26
30 When they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

Don't see an IN the heart or mind there....

Ken, sorry to pop holes in your theory....again.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: Sad

October 28 2016, 10:28 PM 

After supper they were observing the Feast of Unleavened Bread: the Passover was in a rented room and was not the assembly for TEACHING.

In fact they DICTO or dictated or cantillated ONE hymn and would not do so again until next year same date.

DICTO means to SPEAK which is the same as SPEAKING the Text. They didn't have an AUDIENCE so they could HYMN out loud. To the Greeks a Hymn was a Prayer. I am certain that they had grace IN their heart and not up front seld-exhibiting claiming to have anything to offer to God.

Hymns are DEFINED as "In the form of Hebrew cantillation".

I just plugged the hole with another cup of coffee.

 
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Dave
(no login)
66.112.162.15

The Word Does Not Change

October 28 2016, 11:18 PM 

Again, the translators used the word SING when Jesus SANG in Matthew 26 to differentiate from the word SPEAK in Ephesians 5. They didn't NEED an audience as they SANG praises to God. He is the only audience that they or we need.

happy.gif

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: The Word Does Not Change

October 28 2016, 11:53 PM 

When the command is to "teach that which is written for our LEARNING" most people will be happy to sit in reverent silence while Jesus does the ONLY teaching for STUDENTS who don't sing as WORSHIP.

 
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Rancor
(no login)
68.74.186.218

IT WILL NOT GO AWAY!

October 29 2016, 8:43 AM 


Psalm 105:2 King James Version (KJV)

2 Sing unto him, sing psalms unto him: talk ye of all his wondrous works.
King James Version (KJV)

Public Domain


PRAISE GOD!

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: IT WILL NOT GO AWAY!

October 29 2016, 12:16 PM 

Quoting does not mean comprehension. The PATTERN is always the same.

Ps 105:1
INTERNAL O give thanks unto the LORD; call upon his name:
EXTERNAL make KNOWN HIS deeds among the people. [GO AND TEACH]

Ps 105:2
INTERNAL Sing unto him, sing psalms UNTO him:
EXTERNAL TALK ye of all his wondrous works.

THEN melody or grace is IN THE HEART.

Ps 105:3 Glory ye in HIS holy name:
Let the HEART of them rejoice that SEEK the LORD.

Everyone must be SEEKING the singy-clappy-praise-fella. The only way the Heat Strings can SING is when you SEEK God and not a new self-exhibiting praise team.

Heb. 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek HIM.

People authorize sowing discord by saying that JESUS SANG A HYMN. However, the same people go blank when Paul etal commands SPEAKING that which is written for our LEARNING. Adults don't pay for parasites to eat up the widow's living to blindfold them FROM that which HAS BEEN WRITTEN. Elders are hobbled to "teach that which has been taught and bounce those who do not teach that which has been taught because Paul says that THEY ARE LYING IN WAIT TO DECEIVE.


 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: IT WILL NOT GO AWAY!

October 29 2016, 4:24 PM 

Some folks opine that Jesus was involved in singing in the assembly of saints. His church had not been established yet at the time.

The passages in Colossians and Ephesians pertaining to hymns still stand:

"SPEAKING TO ONE ANOTHER in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs...."

SPEAKING still stands.

Can you imagine substituting "singing" for "speaking"? It would come out this way:

"SINGING TO ONE ANOTHER in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs...." I think we did something like that in grade school.

Singing is not speaking -- I think a third-grader reminded me of that.

Singing is a personal matter. One is to sing with the spirit and with the understanding, etc.

 
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Bill
(no login)
99.179.116.207

Re: IT WILL NOT GO AWAY!

October 29 2016, 6:06 PM 

Donnie, you have something in common with your Baptist friends. While you consistently promote speaking to one another, you downplay the second half of Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16 (singing and making melody with grace in your hearts to the Lord), which instructs us to praise God in song. The Baptists pull a similar stunt: promoting salvation by faith alone, they downplay the first part of Mark 16:16 (He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved), which links baptism with salvation, and they further fixate on the many passages that mention faith but not baptism. Do the many nullify the few? No. A passage is just as valid if it occurs only once or a thousand times in the Bible.

And speaking about the number of passages, which moderator here fixates on the many passages that mention baptism in the name of Jesus, yet scorns the one passage that mentions baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? Do the many nullify the few? No. All are of equal value.


 
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Bill
(no login)
99.179.116.207

Re: IT WILL NOT GO AWAY!

October 29 2016, 9:09 PM 

Speaking further about downplaying and rejecting biblical passages, recently Donnie conveyed the notion that Matt. 28:19 is spurious. He further implied that baptism should be in the name of Jesus, not in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (just because it smacks of the bad ole Catholic "Trinity").

As I mentioned previously, Donnie was baptized (as was I) according to the wording in Matt. 28:19 (customary in churches of Christ), yet Donnie claims his baptism is still valid, that he need not be rebaptized in the name of Jesus. If that's true, then no one needs to be rebaptized in the name of Jesus.

So if the baptismal wording in Matt. 28:19 is spurious and "wrong," yet according to Donnie's own example, no one needs to be rebaptized because the water baptisms in that manner over the previous centuries are still valid, then there's really no argument at stake. Baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit vs. baptism in the name of Jesus. Both include the Son. Both wordings are valid; the former is just more "complete."

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: The Word Does Not Change

October 29 2016, 3:48 PM 

Dave,

In response to one of your earlier posts, Ken stated:

I believe that I will be safe if I DO NOT Sing that which is NOT written for our learning.

I don't think the implication in that statement is an opposition to singing [period].

I agree with Ken. Personally, I detest it when the Praise Team performs with their handheld microphones singing to/for the congregation and overpowering the congregants. No, I would not sing a Twila Paris or a Michael Whitaker Smith version of a "Christian" song of "praise" without scriptural support.

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

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Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

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Here is the list of players;

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10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
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Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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