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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Father Communicates with a Son

August 5 2010, 8:14 PM 

How would a father communicate with his son?

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Aug 5, 2010 8:17 PM

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

The 'what' is easy; the 'how' may not be easy to the....;

August 6 2010, 9:59 PM 

Great question, Ken. The "what" or "why" or "when" -- well, numerous examples and instances are mentioned in the gospels especially. But "HOW"? Hmmm!!! That requires a real understanding of the truth. CLUE: Ken has already explained that.

Another seemingly difficult question for those who espouse the Nicean-approved Trinity doctrine to answer is this one:

"Why was the Holy Spirit [Trinity Doctrine's THIRD PERSON] -- as a "SEPARATE/ANOTHER PERSON or BEING" -- not included in the personal relationship and communication between the Father and the Son?"

"Where was the Holy Spirit 'PERSON' when Jesus said PERSON-ally, "I and my Father are one"?

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Richard Rogers, Extension School, Sunset, The Holy Spirit

August 7 2010, 2:07 PM 

Richard Rogers is adduced as the authoriity by that branch of the Church of Christ who believe that the Holy Spirit as a person literally indwells the literal body as the promise of Acts 2:38.

Some quick notes:

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(no login)

Re: Richard Rogers, Extension School, Sunset, The Holy Spirit

August 7 2010, 3:45 PM 

"It is impossible for Dave to ignore me, because I get under his skin with the truth, which irks him and compels him to respond with derogatory comments."

William Crump, noticed your comment above and just wondered.....when you have to tell someone that you are getting under their skin, could it be because you have been rifely stung by that person's comment and are only trying to retaliate?
Again, I only wonder....

Yes Donnie, I talk about the 'boys' here, as in the good ole boys society continuing there never ending witch hunt here ("How does this involve secret oaths and covenants", in your own words). NO, Donnie, this isn't an adult religious discussion.

A discussion only occurs when two people are engaged in said communication. You guys have to actually add something to the conversation for it to be considered an adult religious discussion. One can only hope.......

Oh yea Donnie.....I just haven't noticed the advertisement before.......if slander of the churches isn't enough to shut the site down......there is the tummy trimmer to keep this gloom and doom site open.
"Invisible Tummy Trimmer
Look 10 pounds thinner instantly! Look slim in everything you wear.
As Seen On TV."

The best one on the home page though, is the fine print...."These web sites are not part of or approved by the respective Churches listed below."

You got that right Donnie. Nice touch Donnie.

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Good for you: your observations

August 7 2010, 6:18 PM 


The point is: we all simply discuss religious matters and issues without the unnecessary adjectives, phrases and expressions about posters. Leave that task to the psychiatrist, psychologist and social worker, even to the politician.

Observation: That "This web site is not part of or approved by any of the Churches listed below."

That is the truth -- there is no pretense there. Actually the Scripture makes a stronger declarative: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them." As in the early church, members of the body of Christ, even in this 21st century, need to know. Eph. 4:14 says, "That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive."

Observation: [Did you miss this one?] That "This web site is not part of or approved by the Madison Church of Christ."

That is the truth also -- there is no pretense there. While half of the membership [has] remained, about 1,500 members [have] left. There was not only a divided eldership (among those that resigned or left and those that remained) but also a divided congregation. Even the congregation now is divided between "traditional" and "contemporary." Some may call it "accommodation"; others call it [and the Bible says]: NOT "perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)

Re: Richard Rogers, Extension School, Sunset, The Holy Spirit

August 7 2010, 6:22 PM 

Observation: I rest my case. Dave is not able to ignore my comments. Otherwise, he would not respond to my posts. But I could have predicted that, anyway. Besides, Dave retaliates with derogatory comments because Donnie, Ken, I, and others at CM get under his skin and sting him with the Truth. But I don't think Dave would ever admit that as a fact, even though it's quite true. happy.gif

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

The "Assembly of God" Denomination and "the Holy Spirit"

August 9 2010, 2:27 AM 

Phil Barnes of the Madison congregation preached on "love" as the identifier of the Christian. Good for him to admonish [including posters who charge that anyone who speaks the truth in a heated discussion does not have love] that there's so much more to love than just feelings or the emotion. His thrust, and I agree with him, that love is shown through sacrifice, through giving. [By the way, Dave, you are confusing "love" (emotional or feelings to you) in I Cor. 13 with the love in John 14:15 -- "If ye love me, keep my commandments"; in John 15:13 -- "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."

Now, the discussion of God's holy Spirit:

Before Phil Barnes preached on "love," part of his introduction had to deal with God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. [While I may not have fully heard -- and I may be going deaf in my old age], he mentioned "the Assembly of God" ... about our preoccupation with "doctrine and doctrine" ...about "maybe the need to learn" [from other beliefs?] ... about being "raised in the churches of Christ."

Personally, I can't handle it when somebody says "being raised in the churches [plural] of Christ." OK, that was a misstatement. He meant "raised in the church [singular 'body'] of Christ." Speaking of "churches of Christ," that should be understood as "congregations" of the church or body of Christ. Be careful, preachers!

My conclusion is that Phil Barnes takes time to read or browse ConcernedMembers. I could be wrongly making this assumption. But I think it's more than a coincidence that he would begin his sermon on "love" with the mention of the "Assemblies of God" and "God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit." Short of actually uttering "the Trinity." So far in the years that he's been employed at Madison, he has not said "Trinity" yet.

And this was not the first time that he had to bring up the subject of the Holy Spirit ... while we're currently studying the subject of: "Holy Spirit: Third Person or the Mind of Christ?"

Back in June, Phil Barnes' sermon was titled "Guide" in reference to the subject of the Holy Spirit. In that sermon, in short, he mentioned the following expressions: Creator, Redeemer, Judge, Comforter, Guide, God-speaking, farmer/harvester (in reference to the "fruit of the Spirit"), connecting, taking residence in the heart--a strong implication of the "personhood" of God's Spirit. Again, the "Trinity" [doctrine] was not mentioned--just implied.

Another coincidence? More than a coincidence? That was about the time when we were discussing the thread "Nice Song" where I noted that in the very popular hymn "Holy, Holy, Holy!" ... hymnbooks used in churches of Christ have the line removed: "God in three Persons, blessed Trinity!"

Instead, hymnbooks have that line replaced with: "God over all, and blest eternally."

Watch out:

(1) Research the history of the Nicean doctrine of "the Trinity."
(2) Are we to follow the papal decree: Father, Son, Mary the Mother of God?
(3) Are we to follow the Assembly of God practices of the Holy Spirit and miracles?
(4) Are we to follow the teaching of the liberals and progressives "in the church" the DIRECT OPERATION of the holy Spirit of God upon the Christian?
(5) What did the great men of the Restoration Movement actually believe and teach in regard to the holy Spirit of Christ?

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change agent
(no login)

You got to be kidding??

August 9 2010, 12:57 PM 

Donnie, i have purposefully stayed away, and just occasionally stopped by. I just wonder if there is anything you consider so small you would not argue about.

"Personally, I can't handle it when somebody says "being raised in the churches [plural] of Christ." OK, that was a misstatement. He meant "raised in the church [singular 'body'] of Christ." Speaking of "churches of Christ," that should be understood as "congregations" of the church or body of Christ. Be careful, preachers!"

Luke, Paul and John i suppose should be corrected when they used the word "churches" so many times. Any one who would find the need to argue about the use of the word "churches" is not going to find very many folks who would like to have any kind of conversation with. Maybe that's why very few visit this site. Peace
change agent

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(no login)

Not kidding; but....

August 9 2010, 1:24 PM 

Change Agent,

Welcome back!!!

It's just one of my idiosyncrasies -- I am a very detailed person. You may ignore the remark; I was just trying to get the reader's attention.

What would you like to say about the topic regarding the "Spirit OF the Lord"? WHAT is it? Or, WHO is it [to others who believe that the "holy Spirit OF Christ" is the third PERSON]?

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Change Agent
(no login)


August 26 2010, 10:53 AM 

I don't check here often, because i have never really found anything of significant importance, Donnie asked so here is my take on the subject. No one this side of heaven will be able to fully understand all aspects of the Spirit. Let me ask a question, was Jesus a separate person from God? Well of course the answer is yes. But he and God were also ONE, from Jesus own mouth. I would place the Spirit in the same place, not the same but the are all three one. The three would never contradict each other, never direct one to violate God's word so i would conclude they are ONE, but different, yet all from the ONE God. I can't understand all aspects of that but I trust God, the Holy Spirit and Jesus. I do know from the very beginning generally speaking when God moved and worked in the physical world which He created, it was His Spirit. Gen. 1:2. The appearance of Jesus in the physical world, (God in the flesh) was something that never happened before or since. When He left and ascended to heaven to return to God, he promised another to comfort, direct and be a real presence for believers. So much of this site simply argues over things we will never understand this side of heaven. I am ok with not understanding things God has kept me and others from understanding. I will continue to look at the poor reflection, but most of the few posters here are not. They seem to say they have it all figured out and if you disagree with them, well you cant be a brother or even worse you are, some kind of sexual pervert. (direct reference to Sublett) That Donnie is my take on it, i probably wont check back for a while, of course unless the Spirit moves me to. LOL peace
Change Agent

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)

Re: You got to be kidding??

August 9 2010, 2:14 PM 

Change agent wrote: "Maybe that's why very few visit this site." No one but the moderator knows exactly how may people visit this site--how many daily "hits" this site receives. Neither change agent nor anyone else should judge this site based on how many people actually post here. It is quite possible that this site receives many hits, yet the majority of visitors may choose not to post anything, because they are only curious or wish to read the messages without participating in the discussions. It is also quite possible that a fair number of messages submitted are rejected by the moderator, because those messages are completely unfit for posting here; that is, they contain spam, vulgarity, profanity, or pornography. Therefore, do not make the mistake of assuming that everyone who visits this site posts messages.

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(no login)

Question: The Spirit of the Living God

August 10 2010, 5:31 PM 


IF the Holy Spirit is the THIRD PERSON of the Catholic-invented, Protestant-propagated Trinity Doctrine, is that the same "THIRD PERSON" as "the Spirit OF the living God" in II Cor. 3:3?

Clue: The preposition "OF" in a phrase by definition means "proceeding from ... belonging to ... denoting possession or ownership ... part of a whole ... an attribute ... a component. Simply, e.g., note the following expressions: "the mouth OF the Lord"; "tree OF the garden"; "presence OF the Lord." Is the mouth the Lord? Is the tree the garden? Is presence the Lord?

Job 33:4 -- "The Spirit OF God hath made me, and the breath OF the Almighty hath given me life."

If the holy Spirit OF God is a being and if the living God is a separate [or another] being, how do you explain that?

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(no login)

Question: Must there be another holy spirit person/being

August 10 2010, 6:13 PM 

Passage from John 4:

[19] The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
[20] Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
[21] Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
[22] Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
[23] But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
[24] God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The Lord God is holy (Psa. 99:5,9; Joshua 24:19; I Sam. 6:20; Rev. 4:8).

In the above text, Jesus was referring to the Father as God who is a Spirit, that the Father is to be worshipped in spirit and in truth. The FATHER is wholly a SPIRIT [no flesh] and is HOLY.

Should there be another Holy Spirit being (a third person) than our holy heavenly Father, God who is a Spirit (John 4:24)?

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KEN Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)


August 11 2010, 3:17 PM 

We would expect that a theologian who got his/her/its training at a liberal arts college to be a Liberal Artist. (tee hee).

However, we are shocked that we are not shocked that a Phd in Greek or New Testament would not be able to understand the word used for BEAST. The pre and post gnostics identified ZOE as the "the beast and female instructing principle." ZOE is also used to define a beast in the Greek world, or one who got their "living" by using music or poetry which was a synonym for the literates for "liars." "Parasite" was another code word for a "harp player". Zoe also means "scum on milk."
Not to be surprised that theologians do not quote the context of ORIGINAL SOURCES and what the quote they are disabled so that they cannot grasp that "He has the spirit OF DENSNESS" does not mean that a being named DENSNESS lives inside of his body: he just has no brain cells which match up with a prepositional phrase. I think that is what means "a race of vipers" God would baptize with WIND and FIRE.

We readers understand that a THERION is NOT an animal although they may be of the VIPER race we are warned to save ourselves from.

Therion includes:
Mousikê aei ti kainon THERIONthêrion tiktei
A. mousikos
B. aei always
C. kainos , esp. of new dramas, the representation of the new tragedies, (Aphrodisias dedicated to Aphrodite (ZOE); comedy, sexual love, pleasure, a woman's form of oath, Aster or Venus or ZOE.
D. Tikto mostly of the mother {Eve is Zoe: mother of all the LIVING.]
E. of Rhea [EVE] one of the zoogonic or vivific principles

LUCRETIUS ON CYBELE: THE MOTHER GODDESS: Demeter and Proserpine have become the heroines of a mystic drama; and their wanderings, and seizure, and grief, Eleusis celebrates by torchlight processions. I think that the derivation of orgies and mysteries ought to be traced, the former to the wrath (orge) of Demeter against Zeus, the latter to the nefarious wickedness (mu/soj) relating to Dionysus; but if from Myus of Attica, who Pollodorus says was killed in hunting-no matter, I don't grudge your mysteries the glory of funeral honours.

You may understand mysteria in another way, as mytheria (hunting fables), the letters of the two words being interchanged; for certainly fables of this sort hunt after the most barbarous of the Thracians, the most senseless of the Phrygians, and the superstitious among the Greeks.

NOW, SINCE NO KNOWN THEOLOGIAN HAS ADVANCED TO THE PEAK OF THEIR INCOMPETENCE and able to understand "WHAT IS A PREPOSITION?" What if THAT is the first MARK the Locusts (Muses) ask to SEGREGATE those marked by THERION from those marked by LOGOS where all of the LOGOS words are translated SPEAK "which is the opposite of rhetoric, poetry or music."

Jesus fired the doctors of the law because "they take away the key to knowledge." The only skill they need is NOT to know how to define a PREPOSITION.

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(no login)

Prepositional Phrase, Metonymy, Adjective, Pronoun, Gender

August 12 2010, 3:43 PM 

There are numerous misconceptions concerning "the spirit OF God." We will be discussing these in more detail when time permits.

While expressions "the Spirit" and "the holy Spirit" are found in Scripture and are commonly identified and espoused by the religious community as the THIRD PERSON in the Trinity Doctrine, a very careful study on the issue will demand an understanding of what and how other similar expressions are used in the Holy Scripture.

As already pointed out, in the expression "tree of the garden," is the tree itself the garden? I think not. In the expression "the nose of Jimmy Durante," is the nose itself the person of Mr. Durante? I think not.

We've already noted other expressions regarding "the Spirit":

-- The Spirit OF Christ
-- The Spirit OF Jesus Christ (Phil. 1:19)
-- The Spirit OF God
-- The Spirit OF our God
-- The Spirit OF the living God
-- The Spirit OF the Father (Matt. 10:20)
-- The Spirit OF truth
-- The Spirit OF the Lord
-- The Spirit OF the Lord God

Plus, whose Spirit?

-- The Spirit OF His Son
-- HIS Spirit (Rom. 8:11; I Cor. 2:10; I John 4:13)
-- HIS holy Spirit (Isa. 63:10,11; I Thess. 4:8)
-- The Spirit OF Him that raised up Jesus (Rom. 8:11)
-- The Spirit which is OF God (I Cor. 2:12)

One other question is the gender designation. Is it an "it" or a "He"? More next time.

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(no login)

Hey Boys!

August 13 2010, 12:53 PM 

Hot here in the south, but supposed to be better by tomorrow. I think it is very important that you gents continue on a conversation, even if it is just amongst yourselves....even if no one wants to hear it....and even if there are better things to talk about, like salvation of the lost.

William Crump......noticed where you said "Therefore, do not make the mistake of assuming that everyone who visits this site posts messages."

Warding off those that assume....BUT...then you do a great deal of assuming by saying "It is also quite possible that a fair number of messages submitted are rejected by the moderator, because those messages are completely unfit for posting here; that is, they contain spam, vulgarity, profanity, or pornography."

Unless you have data William, you are also assuming, eh? How many is 'a fair number?' A lot? A fair number. Can you give a percentage, or are you just ASSUMING?
Oh, never mind....I should realize that it came from you.

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(no login)

Hey ... [How should we address Dave?]

August 13 2010, 3:33 PM 

Here are stats that might interest you:

Page views worldwide for this week (so far):

SUN (Aug. 8) ------ 219
MON (Aug. 9) ------ 373
TUE (Aug. 10) ----- 409
WED (Aug. 11) ----- 254
THU (Aug. 12) ----- 212
FRI (Aug. 13) ----- 129 (so far)

Today from the U.S. ----- 105 (so far)
-------------- Romania -- 003
-------------- France --- 002
-------------- Australia- 001
-------- Other Countries- 018

For no. of visitors, see counter (sitemeter) on this page below.

No, Dave, we're not competing with YouTube, etc., and the rest of the world or the Pentecostal groups. But we have visitors from Ukraine and other places.

So, please do not insult our visitors and regular concerned members with your condescending and uncivil remarks.

This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address on Aug 13, 2010 3:35 PM

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)

Re: Hey ... [How should we address Dave?]

August 13 2010, 8:36 PM 

At this submission, the sitemeter showed nearly 1,534,000 hits. Donnie, is that the total number of hits since CM began or is that for this year so far?

People who want this site to fail will say that the number of posts equals the number of visitors. If there are few posts, then there must be few visitors. The stats show that reasoning to be false. As I said earlier, far more people are likely to read the messages but are not willing to participate in the discussions.

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)

Re: Hey ... [How should we address Dave?]

August 14 2010, 9:36 AM 

Of course, there may be some folks who are so rabidly bent on seeing the CM site closed that they deny the results of sitemeters and other stats that show the number of hits to this site. To those people, the number of posts will always reflect the number of visitors; few posts mean few visitors. Such people close their eyes to the facts, because the facts refute these people's preconceived notions. In a similar analogy, people who strongly believe that the earth is flat will vehemently deny pictures of the earth taken from space. They will claim that pictures showing a round earth have been fabricated. Such people also close their eyes to the facts, because the facts refute these people's preconceived notions.

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Hey ... [How should we address Dave?]

August 15 2010, 2:12 AM 

Dr. Crump,

What the sitemeter shows (nearly 1,534,000) is the number of visits from all 5 forums since CM began.

In the early years (2001 - 2004), the average number of visitors was between 400 and 500 daily.

The estimated number of page views per visit is 5.

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

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Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

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At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

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Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

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5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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