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(no login)

Rave On!

August 14 2010, 12:20 AM 

For the ones who do come here and cop a view, why do you think that they don't post or make comments?

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(no login)

Why I view

August 14 2010, 10:48 AM 

I come here just to see how far Donnie, Ken, John, and their disciples have departed from the Bible and the Gospel, to see if they are still grieving the Holy Spirit, to see who their next target for lies and divisiveness is next, and as a reminder that are still those who call themselves Christians but oppose the doctrine of Christ.

They are always in my prayers to return to God and to live a life like Jesus would live.

God bless

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

The question is not WHO...; it is WHOSE

August 14 2010, 3:21 PM 


The question is NOT: "WHO" is the Holy Spirit PERSON in the papal-contrived Trinity Doctrine that the Christian is grieving?

Rather, the question is: "WHOSE Spirit" -- which is holy -- is the Christian grieving? The answer is: the HOLY Spirit OF God. Notice the adjective "HOLY" and the preposition "OF" -- meaning that "God's holy Spirit" is not a being nor is it a name. You will never find "God the Holy Spirit" in the Bible. The Pope invented that.

Ray, I still do not know your church affiliation. I know about your stance on the use of musical devices in the assembly of saints. But churches of Christ do not use or play inanimate musical devices in their assemblies.

I could be wrong in that maybe you were a member of the same church, but your leaders decided to add the mechanical operation of musical instruments in your worship. If that's the case, I would urge you and your leaders to get rid of musical objects and return to "the old paths."

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(no login)

Try that One Again Donnie

August 15 2010, 12:04 AM 

Donnie said...."But churches of Christ do not use or play inanimate musical devices in their assemblies."

That is not true and you yourself have proved that.
You admitted that there are SOME churches of Christ that use musical instruments (99.98$%, remmember?)
Even if it isn't some, as you have agreed to, even if it is only one, then you still deliberately spoke a lie.

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Try that One Again Donnie

August 15 2010, 1:44 AM 


No. Of the very few churches that use mechanical music devices in the assembly...

1. Some have dropped the name "of Christ" and have affiliated themselves with the Association of Community Churches; e.g., Oak Hills Church [formerly "of Christ"].

2. Some identify themselves now with the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ denomination.

3. Others no longer desire to go the New Testament way all the way but still want to retain the name "church of Christ."

Net result: churches of Christ that reject the participation of mechanically-operated musical devices in their assemblies.

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(no login)

It's Your Thing...Do What You Want to Do

August 15 2010, 10:26 PM 

Let's look at your number 3
"3. Others no longer desire to go the New Testament way all the way but still want to retain the name "church of Christ."

Whether one uses instruments or not has nothing to do with the New Testament has already been proven time and time again. You and others like you continue to TRY and make instrumental music a sin. It is not and never will be such. Again, time and time this Truth has been proven by the very same Scriptures that you continue to abuse.

So cry and whine all you want to no avail. Your number three doesn't hold water. Those who bear the "church of Christ" name and use instrumental music are not in violation of God's commands.

Oh, and are more than welcome to edit, moderate, and/or delete any message of Truth that I post. This your site, and it would certainly be your prerogative to suppress the Truth at any time. As long as the tummy trimmer and ultimate chopper continue to advertise here, you will always have the finances to say anything you wish. Your constitution also backs that.

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

No, it is not my thing

August 16 2010, 1:52 AM 


The New Testament way has much to do with it. You can never prove the use and participation of inanimate, lifeless musical objects and devices in the assembly of saints in the New Testament, even in the Old Testament for that matter.

Not by God's COMMAND.



But wait. Oh, YES:

-- By man's opinion
-- By man's conclusion or implication
-- By man's command
-- By man's example
-- By man's desire
-- By man's option
-- By man's love for musical idolatry
-- By man's tradition [the Roman Catholic Church started it]
-- By man's disregard for the law of silence of Scripture
-- ... and on and on.

As to #3, all the congregation needs to do that wants to retain the name "church of Christ" while playing the sackbut, dulcimer or piano "for the Lord" is to officially join the Christian Church. There are churches in the Christian Church denomination that carry the name "Church of Christ."

No, Dave, I don't see any reason for your post to be edited unless you use expletives -- you've never done that and you won't. In fact, it's just the opposite -- we want readers to know the real Dave and his opinions and viewpoints.

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(no login)

The true old paths

August 16 2010, 10:40 AM 


I am and have always been all my life a member of the Lord's Church, the church of Christ. I never stop praying for you and your followers and the followers of John and Ken to return to the old paths - not the old paths of your human error not the old paths of the mid-20th century - the old paths of the Word of God.

Even with regard to the Holy Spirit, you and Ken do not teach the old paths of the Lord's Church, the church of Christ, the ancient pre-papal church, nor of God's Word. You teach the deviant paths of Armstrongism and the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Why do you ignore God's Word on His nature:

Romans 8:26-27 - Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God

Romans 14:17-18 - For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.

Romans 15:16 - to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 15:30 - I appeal to you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf

1 Corinthians 2:2-5 - For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

1 Corinthians 6:11 - And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

1 Corinthians 12:4-6 - Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 - And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. [NOte - cross reference Acts 2:38-39]

2 Corinthians 13:14 - The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

Ephesians 2:18 - For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.

Ephesians 3:16-17 - that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faiththat you, being rooted and grounded in love

Ephesians 4:4-6 - There is one body and one Spiritjust as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Colossians 1:6-8 - which has come to you, as indeed in the whole world it is bearing fruit and growingas it also does among you, since the day you heard it and understood the grace of God in truth, just as you learned it from Epaphras our beloved fellow servant. He is a faithful minister of Christ on your behalf and has made known to us your love in the Spirit.

1 Thessalonians 1:3-5 - remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 - But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

And this is just a sampling from Paul's inspired writings in God's Word. I have not even noted the inpired words from the Gospels on God's nature in Jesus' baptism and HIs words to the apostles at the last supper.

What inspires you to reject God's Word? It should not surprise faithful followers of God who have seen how you reject God's inspired words in the older testament which teach against your beliefs that you would also reject God's inspred words from the New Testament that you do not agree with.

God bless your return to His true path and not human old paths.

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(no login)

Re: The true old paths

August 16 2010, 1:00 PM 


I completely agree with all the passages you quoted.

1. The passages do not prove the papacy-contrived Trinity Doctrine that the Spirit is another being or the third person.

2. The holy Spirit OF Christ or God is NOT another BEING. It has the full capacity to intercede, sanctify, strengthen.

3. You do not comprehend the "gift of a/the holy spirit" in Acts 2:37,38. Please read a PARALLEL passage in Acts 3:19 -- what does the parallel passage in Acts 3:19 say in regard to the following events [really figure it out]:

-- Repent in Acts 3:19 = "Repent"
-- Be baptized in Acts 3:19 = "Be converted"
-- So that your sins may be remitted in Acts 3:19 = "That your sins may be blotted out"
-- Shall receive the gift of a holy spirit in Acts 3:19 =
[what do you think it says, Ray?]_____ _____ ______ _____ _____ _____

4. Gender designation: There are more references that identify the HOLY spirit OF Christ/God as "it" or "which" than as "he" or "who/whom." New Testament Greek translations are bound to assign a gender designation where there is no gender involved in order for a statement to make sense.

We will expose the Trinity fallacy further later on.

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

The Initial Objective

August 15 2010, 12:42 AM 


The original intent of this website was to alert churches of Christ that change agents operating in the brotherhood were coming their way to transform them from the New Testament way to Community Church-ism.

Yes, it's true that some inept elders of certain congregations have succumbed to following the schemes of change agents -- these few congregations are now Community Churches. Change agents are essentially followers and disciples of Rick Warren of the Saddleback Community Church in California which in 2000-2001 was some 16,000+ membership strong. Their message to already large congregations such as Richland Hills, Oak Hills, Madison and others was to be a mega church just like Community Churches.

In the case of Madison, the efforts of the change agents to take over the congregation may have been thwarted because of websites such as ConcernedMembers. The alarm may have been quite late for Madison as the split had already taken place. But I am thankful that the name "of Christ" has not been dropped altogether, even though in the new worship guide of late, the church's name occupies two lines [intentionally? and notice the emphasis] as:

Madison Church


This website has its own message and goal. It just happens to have a discussion forum, again, originally intended to revolve around the Change Movement -- its proponents and its destructive activities.

I believe that most of the readers are already members of the church and congregations interested in what's going on in the brotherhood. We have received many e-mail correspondences from individual Christians, from elders and ministers, and at times from followers of the Change Movement. On one hand, many readers come to this site to learn and be warned but with little or nothing to contribute. On the other hand, the change makers are here to make noise and justify their liberal agenda.

Let's not forget that these forums are moderated, and for that reason the hesitancy to post should be taken into consideration.

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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: Hey ... [How should we address Dave?]

August 17 2010, 10:34 PM 

Observation: I think Dave has never responded to anyone with whom he disagrees without throwing at least one insult or uncivil comment.

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Ken Sublett
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Augustine Creed and doctrine

August 14 2010, 3:11 PM 

The links to the comments in pictures below:

Those who began to define the Godhead as OPPOSITE to the three person (gods) of all pagans, did not include the Spirit OF Christ or the Spirit OF God as a separated being. Augustine who wrote the most warned against making dogma out of the concept. He quotes some of the views at that time.

I will expand later on the COMMUNICATION of the Holy Spirit. Jesus spoke the WORDS of God because He had the Spirit of God WITHOUT METER (so metron can be read). This fits the pattern that SPEAK is the opposite of poetry (meter) music. Speak as in rhetoric would define a hypocrite.

If the preachers or musicians speak FOR the Spirit in the morning, Scripture and all recorded evidence proves that they are being led by a lying spirit or The spirit OF lying which is NOT another person.

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Sep 13, 2010 5:40 PM

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Nothing New Under the Sun

August 16 2010, 11:48 AM 

Donnie used to post regularly at He says the same things here that he did there. There was a man that posted there, by the name of Walt, who many of us claimed used the fruity loop de loop logic. Donnie is no different. You prove by Scriptures that he is wrong, but he denies them, changes the subject/and or uses his same ole logic.....his opinion instead of what God wants.

He says that David is wrong in the OT, because David was never commanded to use instruments of music. His logic there is thinking that David needed a commandment to do so. The Psalms prove Donnie wrong, but even when he was proven wrong he reverted to saying then that you have to use the instruments that were listed in the OT, including his now famous sackbut. So even when you do prove him wrong, he still pulls it along until you just smile and realize that some people are going to do what they want instead of what God wants no matter what you say or do.

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(no login)

Re: Nothing New Under the Sun

August 16 2010, 3:14 PM 


The truth is that there's no directive from God to mechanically operate musical objects and devices in the assembly of saints. Musical instruments were ordained and used by man. By Nebuchadnezzar (Daniel 3, KJV) to worship the golden image -- in case you're wondering about the "sackbut." By David, king of Israel and musician, who ordained them (II Chron. 29:27). What would you expect from a skilled musician who made a deistic decision to play ... before the Lord?

Truth does not change even with circular logic.

Repetition is the key to learning.

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vocal cords (human) = voice coil (pa system)

August 16 2010, 6:10 PM 


Do not be deceived! If your real life preacher is a bit squeaky you may want to adjust the tone controls in your PA system to smooth-out his voice. Makes no difference, the voice is already altered. The PA system is an "Aid" just like Instrumental Music!

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: vocal cords (human) = voice coil (pa system)

August 17 2010, 1:27 AM 


Yes, it makes a difference:

(1) The piano is a musical instrument; the PA system is a loud speaker.
(2) One plays the piano; one does not play with the PA system.
(3) The piano produces music; the PA system does not create music.
(4) The piano delivers an unintelligible message; the PA system allows the message to be heard.

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(no login)

Thank You Donnie

August 16 2010, 9:41 PM 

Acts 13
22After removing Saul, he made David their king. He testified concerning him: 'I have found David son of Jesse a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.'

23"From this man's descendants God has brought to Israel the Savior Jesus, as he promised."

Donnie, do you remember me saying that if you give an irrational man enough rope then he will hang himself?

You did it! Nothing else needs to be you or William Crump, or Jimmy Wren, or Ken Sublett that could have ever damaged you or this site any more than what you said.

You said...." What would you expect from a skilled musician who made a deistic decision to play ... before the Lord?"

A deistic decision? From a a skilled musician.....

God made promises to David.
The lineage of Jesus Christ came THROUGH David, yet you take it upon yourself, unScripturally at that too, to condemn David by calling his decision to play for God........deistic.

Bravo Donnie Cruz.

Again, nothing now, past, or present could have ever done as much as that to describe in detail the evilness of you and this site.

So take your shots Cruz at me, because I would only pray that I was half the man that David was, but for you to condemn to bring utter condemnation on you and your site.

I also believe that with some of your past posts Donnie that you are getting a bit agitated with me lately, stating that I need to watch my "hesitancy to post." As always, the Truth hurts those who are against the Truth.
You have decided to go against the very congregation that you attend (Madison). You have decided to build this evil site to go against our Lord's work. Worst of have decided to do all of this under the clever disguise of sheep's clothing.

2 Peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought thembringing swift destruction on themselves.

Donnie, at least you guys have cleverly hid denying God.
That will not last long either.

Donnie, there is a lie down with wake up with fleas.

I will be around, and you will see me, just not here.

Hey tell William Crump that he can even come up with the one about the door not hitting me in the backside on the way out.

For any visitors here....BEWARE of the evil here at this site.

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Thank You Donnie

August 17 2010, 2:34 AM 

You're welcome, Dave.

So, by pointing out the fact that David, King of Israel, was a skilled musician [actually, he invented to himself "instruments of music" (Amos 6:5)] got you extremely upset?

Thanks for explaining that "the lineage of Jesus Christ came THROUGH David." And you really think that because of that lineage from David, a skilled musician, the mechanical operation of musical devices "in the assembly of saints" is justified? The missing element in that analogy is that you forgot to mention some of the women in Christ's genealogy like Tamar who disguised herself as a harlot and seduced Judah; Rahab, a harlot although whose faith was later commended.

(I think you misunderstood my statement regarding the "hesitancy to post." I was responding to your question: "For the ones who do come here and cop a view, why do you think that they don't post or make comments?"
I simply meant that other websites are not moderated and, therefore, posting of messages is instantaneous and automatic. On the other hand, the CM forums are moderated and for that reason alone, folks may be hesitant to post.)

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Ken Sublett
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Musical fall from Grace: Patternism being repeated with or without instruments.

August 16 2010, 10:04 PM 

Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness
......with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers:
......who received the lively oracles to give unto us

Acts 7:39 To whom our fathers would not obey,
......but thrust him from them,
......and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,

Acts 7:40 Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us:
......for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt,
......we wot not what is become of him.

Acts 7:41 And they made a calf in those days,
......and offered sacrifice unto the idol,
......and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.

Exodus 32:6

hlcaustum , i, n., = holokauston, Which God had not commanded.
I. a whole burnt - offering, holocaust, Prud. Apoth. 537; id. Psych. 784; Vulg. Exod. 40, 6; id. Lev. 4, 7 al.; cf. the foll. art.

Surgo surrexi and subrexi, surrectum and subrectum, applaude, They rose up AGAINST GOD. ESPECIALLY OF AN ORATOR first on the list of "Hypocrites."

Play is LUDO to play at a game, to sport, dally, wanton play, Amourous play
Esp., to play on an instrument of music, to make or compose music or song: ludere quae vellem calamo permisit agresti, Verg. E. 1, 10:
Musa the muses goddessess of poetry, music, mimic, oratory
Canto I. Neutr., to produce melodious sounds (by the voice or an instrument), to sound, sing, play
III. In the lang. of religion, as v. n. or a., to use enchantments, charms, incantations, to enchant, to charm,
Carmen declaim I. . a tune, song; poem, verse; an oracular response, a prophecy; a form of incantation (cf.: cano, cantus, and canto).
I. In gen., a tune, song, air, lay, strain, note, sound, both vocal and instrumental


......For I spake NOT unto your fathers, nor commanded them
............ in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt,
............concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: Jeremiah 7:22

......But this thing commanded I them, saying,
............Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people:
............and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you,
............that it may be well unto you. Jeremiah 7:23

......But they HEARKENED NOT, nor inclined their ear,
............but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart,
............and went backward, and not forward. Jeremiah 7:24

Acts 7:42 Then God turned,
......and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; it is written in the book of the prophets,
......O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices the space of forty years in the wilderness?

When God ABANDONS you to worship the starry host BECAUSE of musical idolatry, WHAT is the GOD you worship?
Acts 7:43 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch,
......and the star of your god Remphan,
......figures which ye made to worship them:
......and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.

When people see MUSIC instead of TEACHING that which is written, God sends you to the Babylon mother of harlots (
Rev 17). There her MINISTERS as "lusted after FRUITS" serve as speakers, singerrs an instrument players: John calls them SORCERERS who HAD deceived the whole world. Jude, Peter etal treat them as "fallen angels" whom Apollo (Abaddon, Apollyon) has unleashed the LOCUSTS which is John's code word for the Musical Ministers working for Abaddon.

Acts 7:44 Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, he had appointed, speaking unto Moses,
......that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen.
Acts 7:45 Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles,
......whom God drave out before the face of our fathers,
......unto the days of David;

Rather than let David be killed for his own sins, God gave him an old Jebusite or Canaanite high place already set up to conduct Starworship--

......and gave them up to worship the host of heaven;

Acts 7:46 Who found favour (GRACE)before God,
......And desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob.
......But Solomon built him an house. Acts 7:47

Acts 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet.
Acts 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool:
......what house will ye build me?
......saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?

Acts 7:50 Hath not my hand made all these things?
Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, do always resist the Holy Ghost: your fathers did, so do ye.

Acts 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted?
......and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One;
......of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers

AS THE END TIME FULFILLMENT of those who "murder the prophets" who spoke through Christ by ignoring te prophets who repudiate the Civil-Military-Clergy complex and identifies the MUSICAL DIVERTERS as starving the people to death for loss of the Word AS IT HAS BEEN WRITTEN:

Rev. 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
Rev. 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Jesus was also descended from Rahab!

August 16 2010, 10:44 PM 

David never led the worship service: most often he sings to God upon his bed
and meditates in his heart.

David was a fleshly king of a MONARCHY to which God abandoned the people
He was KING and the Levite warrior musicians were under the king and commanders of the army:
....They made war: not worshipl..

David could never officially enter any holy place and neither could Jesus.
David was the fleshly ancestor and KING: Jesus was king and HIGH PRIEST

Christ as the ROCK ordained the Spiritual Qahal, synagogue or Church for the CIVILLIANS.
He EXCLUDED vocal or instrumental rejoicing: not even Simple Simon would blow his horn in Bible Class

Here are the people who are ordained for salvation:

Acts 13:26 Men and brethren,
....children of the stock of Abraham,
....and whosoever among you feareth God, you is the word of this salvation sent.

Here are the people who are ordained for damnation:

Acts 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers,
....because they knew him not,
....nor yet the voices of the PROPHETS
....which are READ every sabbath day,
....they have fulfilled them in condemning him.

SPEAK or READ is the opposite of rhetoric, poetry or music. The word SPEAK means to SPEAK as in the word SPEAK: if you don't get it ask a kid doing grade 6 remedial reading.

We don't PROFANE the Sabbath (play the flute, steal people's inheritance, pollute, prostitute) we go to ekklesia or synagogue. Preaching, singing and playing instruments are defined by Christ as HYPOCRITES. In order to MARK a false teacher (2 Peter 2) we make sure that he doesn't private interpret or "further expound" and that eleminates the musicators who suck up all of the worship. MUSIC from mystery means "to make the lambs dumb before the slaughter." It SURE works, doesn't it? :-o

Jesus never presided in the slaughter pen but went to the synagogue, stood up to READ the assigned passage and DECENTLY and in order just SAT DOWN and did not hyperventelate a feminine diatribe twisting Scripture.

Ac.15:21 For Moses of old time
....hath in every city them that preach him,
....being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Preaching and singing non-Biblical (no commanded) text came close to the year 400 because the PAGAN PRIESTS were first able to get on the DOLE after Constantine.

2 Cor 3:13 And not as Moses,
....which put a vail over his face,
....that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look the end of that which is abolished:

It was abolished because it was IMPOSED as a curse because of musical idolatry which is ALWAYS the mark of gender-confused males. Sorry NO RECORDED EXCEPTION. Just you watch them PERFORM. It was a shadow or SKIA which means "a wholly erroneous system." Israel had a Covenant with Death and Amos defines the Marzeah (love feast) which was a festival WITH and FOR dead ancestors.

2 Cor 3:14 But their minds were blinded: (AT Mount Sinai and ONWARD for the duration)>
....for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away the reading of the old testament;
....which vail is done away in Christ.

2 Cor 3:15 But even unto this day,
....when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

2 Cor 3:16 Nevertheless, when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

To TURN is equated to BAPTISM. If you have the LUST to musicate then Jesus commands you to JUST DO IT. Strong Delusions bring on Lying Wonders which defines all of the MUSICAL and PERFORMANCE arts which people CLAIM is done on behalf of God. So, eat, drink and make Mary: in the Words of God in amos, the FRUIT BASKETS means that the end has come and He sayd "I will not pass this way again."

Just don't try to fool we straight people.

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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