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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.30

Proof texts to Ignore the message.

August 16 2010, 11:35 PM 

For the information of readers, it costs a lot of money to keep this forum on the air: the commercials belong to the owner of the network. Slander is never pretty.

Quoting 2 Peter 2 calls for reading 2 Peter 1 where Paul OUTLAWS private interpretation which is further expounding. That is because he and others are leaving a MEMORY of their eye- and ear- witness of Jesus Christ Who confirmed HIS WORDS by supernatural signs. That is why you MARK as a false teacher who does not teach "that which is written for our learning" even if you assume "singing" in romans 15 and the other never-musical passages.

Church is defined with a clear PATTERN as a School of the Word: speaking outlaws freaky preaching as rhetoric, music, acting or any of what is defined as the hypocritic arts. The direct command is to TEACH, ADMONISH, COMFORT with the elders "teaching that which has been taught." You have to be on hard drugs to force the MUSIC or rhetoric performance at the expense of TEACHING the Word of Christ which is the SPIRIT of Ephesians 5. Now, some rest of the story:







    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 67.142.130.11 on Sep 13, 2010 5:46 PM


 
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Dave
(no login)
170.141.177.53

I Am Back Already!

August 17 2010, 11:25 AM 

Donnie, real quicklike. I had someone to ask me about your comment of "There are churches in the Christian Church denomination that carry the name "Church of Christ."

Is your assumption there because they decided to use instrumental music? If that is your assumption.....it will always continue to be that.....just an assumption by you, as always. You (nor any man) doesn't have the right to decide that a congregation is no longer a 'church of Christ' because they don't do like you want them to.
Instrumental music/a cappela music has never been the deciding point. It has already been proven time and time by the very Scriptures that you continue to abuse.

 
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Donnie
(no login)
170.141.177.53

The Christian Churches

August 17 2010, 12:44 PM 

Dave,

This thread is not about instrumental music but somehow the topic comes up at some point. Anyway, to answer your question, briefly:

Yes, the Christian Church is also known as the Disciples of Christ [Church]. There was a formal recognition in 1906 by the U.S. Religious Census when it listed the Christian Churches and the Churches of Christ as "separate and distinct groups for the first time. The most distinct distinction between the two groups was the rejection of musical instruments in the Churches of Christ." Of course, there were other issues: fellowship/open membership with the unbaptized [unto the remission of sins], women leadership, etc.

Through time the Christian Church/Disciples have become more and more denominational and Protestant-like. Decades later, there were the Independent Christian Churches and [Independent] Churches of Christ that formally split from the Christian Church/Disciples.

Although the Independent Christian Churches/Churches of Christ are more conservative and more closely related to the mainline churches of Christ in theology, we can only deduce from the series of events beginning with the formal split in 1906 due to instrumental music [mainly] ... that the Independent Christian Churches/Churches of Christ use instrumental music in their assemblies.

BTW, Dave, I am a nobody. I was not involved in the departure of the Christian Church from New Testament teachings -- especially concerning instrumental music in the assembly. I'm just "contending for the faith." Yet, you continue to accuse me of abusing the scriptures in discussing musical instruments in the assembly. In essence, you are also accusing the mainline churches of Christ of abusing the scriptures.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
72.171.0.140

Music reasons?

August 17 2010, 1:41 PM 

I will my move the "history 101aaa" notes and music comments as soon as people can grasp that "what's his name" is the BEST defense for using instruments the sowers of discord can dredge up. People who lie, cheat and steal have a CODE OF THE CLAN which is to never respond to any Biblical or historical evidence.

They have the about 1/2 of the OWNERS pacified or threatened into submission and they could care less what the Bible says: they have DECLARED themself as postmodern, post-Biblical and post-Christiandom agents.

There are always some posters who play dumb--convincingly--and do not need to be recognized.

Fact: what became the Disciples of Christ and what became the Churches of Christ passed in the dark and a few congregations tried to do joint efforts, the Stoneites and Campbellites were never UNIONED at any time. Stone denied the atonement and taught that one can be good enough to be saved: the discussion exists on the internet. There was nothing the two groups held in common.

In 1906 the Christian Church was called the Disciples of Christ. In 1927 they formed the organization called the NACC. Because many churches in the North called themselves The Church of Christ (uppercase) they were part of the Disciples group. Even though the Churches of Christ were collectively known under that name, the NACC called themselves The Christian Church and Churches of Christ.

A Church of Christ that used instruments has no connection to The church of Christ: after they sected out of the Disciples they slowly began to cast off Disciples teaching and became a bit more like the Churches of Christ. Nevertheless, there are many, many differences such as not NEEDING any Bible authority to change the church to fit the changed culture.

If they use instruments they are a congenital Disciples of Christ/ Christian church.

Or, as Donnie has noted they have JOINED the NACC and are recognized as Christian churches: there is a LUST to rip CHRIST off the public confession.

My posting will assume a teaching role and not a debate role unless they can find some fresh flesh to say with Campbell to Stone, "Give me some reason not to say you preach heresy."

 
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Dave
(no login)
69.59.106.52

Loop de Loop Logic

August 17 2010, 3:33 PM 

No, Donnie, try, to no avail, with your smooth type to say that I am saying that the church is abusing Scriptures, but it isn't the church, it is men like YOU who decide to such evil deeds.
A church does not depart from NT teachings by merely worshiping with instruments of music....no matter how you CONTEND that it is so. The Scriptures do not support YOUR preference of singing only.
Which faith are you contending for, if it isn't of God?
Does the church depart from NT teaching if they use the radio to get the Word of Christ out? No.
The Scriptures tell us to "GO!"
Does the church depart from NT teaching if they use the piano to accompany the singing? NO
The Scriptures tell us to "SING!"

In both situations the goal of going and singing is accomplished.
Both commandments are accomplished.




 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
170.141.177.53

No, you still did not understand the history of the church

August 17 2010, 5:56 PM 

Dave,

It is pretty evident that you still do not get it.

I have already provided you the information concerning the churches of Christ ("our" brotherhood--I think that's supposed to include you).

Here's the "loop de loop": As long as you are confusing the churches of Christ with the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ/Independent "Churches of Christ" ... you will never be able to accept the fact that the church of which I am a member [and you, too, supposedly] does not use those lifeless, inanimate musical devices in its assembly. Even your own congregation does not use it; otherwise, your church's website would be advertising: "Come worship with us--we practice the IM teaching."

So, when you accuse me of abusing Scripture relating to IM, you are essentially accusing the church of Christ that rejects IM.

That's why I keep "looping" by stressing the point that if you really want your desire met, join the "Church of Christ" branch of the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ.

It cannot be simpler than that.

 
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Dave
(no login)
69.59.106.52

Take Your Foot Out of Your Mouth

August 17 2010, 8:39 PM 

Now you are getting close Donnie....you CLAIM to be a part of the church, but your words don't support it. You can CLAIM all day to be a part of our Lord's church, as well as claiming that the the sun doesn't set in the west.
Two things that you said prove that you aren't a part of the church.
1-You said..."you are essentially accusing the church of Christ that rejects IM"
Donnie, the church doesn't reject IM.....YOU DO!

2-You also said..."Even your own congregation does not use it; otherwise, your church's website would be advertising: "Come worship with us--we practice the IM teaching.""

Donnie, have you seen any of the Christian churches that advertise that? Have you seen ANY churches that advertise that? That just shows how far you would go to prove a point that is pointless and can't be proven. That was absolutely and utterly ridiculous.
Congratulations!

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

IM Advertisements

August 17 2010, 11:31 PM 

Dave,

1. You still aren't convinced that churches of Christ do not allow participation of musical devices in the assembly. You do seem to forget facts and stats quickly. Do you? And I see that you're still confusing the Christian Church with the church of Christ.

2. Yes, I would go that far to prove a point [perhaps only] to you. I think you got the point, though -- for that I'm glad.

Here's what you were asking: as advertised by RHCC [Richland Hills Church of Christ. Oops, shouldn't it be R.H. Christian Church? But there's already another RHCC -- Richland Hills Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)]:

Assembly Times
[Worship Image here]
Weekend Both/And Assemblies

(Broadcast begins five minutes prior to assembly.)

----* Saturday (Instrumental Worship): 5:00 p.m.(CST)
----* Sunday (A cappella Worship): 9:00 a.m.(CST)
----* Sunday (Instrumental Worship): 11:30 a.m.(CST)
----* Wednesday (A cappella Worship): 7:00 p.m.(CST)

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
130.127.120.111

Re: IM Advertisements

August 18 2010, 10:57 AM 

Donnie, and onlookers alike, please compare the following two (2) examples.....

#1---Even your own congregation does not use it; otherwise, your church's website would be advertising: "Come worship with us--we practice the IM teaching."

#2Here's what you were asking: as advertised by RHCC [Richland Hills Church of Christ. Oops, shouldn't it be R.H. Christian Church? But there's already another RHCC -- Richland Hills Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)]:

Assembly Times
[Worship Image here]
Weekend Both/And Assemblies

(Broadcast begins five minutes prior to assembly.)

----* Saturday (Instrumental Worship): 5:00 p.m.(CST)
----* Sunday (A cappella Worship): 9:00 a.m.(CST)
----* Sunday (Instrumental Worship): 11:30 a.m.(CST)
----* Wednesday (A cappella Worship): 7:00 p.m.(CST)

Donnie, now, we have proof, and everyone can see for themselves. Number one and two are as different as night and day. You added your CNN liberal take/slant on the advertising by saying "--we (we being Richland Hills) practice the IM teaching."
Again, and proof positive.......utterly ridiculous. However Donnie, we didn't expect anything different.

 
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Ken Sublett
(no login)
67.142.130.29

richland: a church set on one of the seven hills

August 18 2010, 12:15 PM 

http://www.rhchurch.org/pages/assembly-times/

Weekend Both/And Assemblies

Saturday (Instrumental Worship): 5:00 p.m.(CST)
Sunday (A cappella Worship): 9:00 a.m.(CST)
Sunday (Instrumental Worship): 11:30 a.m.(CST)

There is a Christian church also. Rick knew that when he lied about all of the music passages that he would lose lots of the owners. However, the SATURDAY ONLY (Holy Pledge before God and man) was to ATTRACT new members.

Of course, that would attract people from the SISTER Christian Church.
A poster said that the Christian church had to add a SABBATH worship service to COMPETE.

When Rick was warned about his holy pledge his response was "that was then but this is now."

 
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.
(no login)
108.230.196.85

.

February 8 2015, 10:32 PM 

[linked image]
You boys getting hungry?


============================

You may be hungry also, Just (Coach, Sarge, Justice ...). Would you like to join us boys?

BTW, thanks for re-opening the can. happy.gif


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 23.127.32.146 on Feb 9, 2015 3:46 AM


 
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.
(no login)
108.230.196.85

.

February 9 2015, 9:39 AM 



Ken, you are so hard to buy for! What to get the birthday boy? Hey I've got it! happy.gif They can be as real as you want them to be. Have fun! happy.gif

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=mythology+action+figures




 
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Donnie
(no login)
170.141.177.53

Re: IM Advertisements

August 18 2010, 12:38 PM 

Dave gave this one away when he said: "That just shows how far you would go to prove a point.....

I responded with: "2. Yes, I would go that far to prove a point [perhaps only] to you. I think you got the point, though -- for that I'm glad."

You see, the point is that I made my point. Sometimes it takes so many more words to explain something to someone who fails to understand and differentiate facts from distortions. In this case, Dave still does not believe that churches of Christ do not use the services of professional musicians playing musical devices to enhance "worship" and make it more acceptable to God. [Oops! Guilty again. I just said it in too many words to stress my point.]

Dave's ploy is not to admit that his own congregation actually does not use musical instruments in the assembly. So, therefore, he is deviating from that assertion because while he believes that a soft piano playing will enhance worship, his own congregation does not allow musical devices participating in worship -- as he wishes it would. He knows very well that using IM in the assembly will spark controversy (as has been the case in congregations with that divisive experience).

If there were any CNN (more so with MSNBC [a.k.a. MSLSD]) "liberal take/slant," it would have to be Dave's side. I have no idea when he is ever going to change from: "God authorizes man's directive where He doesn't say 'not to' in the Scripture."

 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.120.111

INVALID CLAIM

August 18 2010, 4:31 PM 

Again, to the visitors who need to be aware that there are actually wolves in sheep's clothing within the church, please notice that Donnie Cruz made this invalid claim about Richland Hills services. The INVALID CLAIM, by Donnie Cruz, was that Richland Hills said to "Come worship with us--we practice the IM teaching."

All Donnie Cruz could offer up in the way of proof was this actual signage from Richland Hills.

----* Saturday (Instrumental Worship): 5:00 p.m.(CST)
----* Sunday (A cappella Worship): 9:00 a.m.(CST)
----* Sunday (Instrumental Worship): 11:30 a.m.(CST)
----* Wednesday (A cappella Worship): 7:00 p.m.(CST)


 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
70.146.139.200

Re: INVALID CLAIM

August 18 2010, 5:26 PM 

If a church of Christ advertises two instrumental worship services and two a cappella worship services, that church as much as says to the public, "We practice the IM teaching." It couldn't be any more obvious. Wake up, smell the coffee, and take off your blinders.

 
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Donnie
(no login)
170.141.177.53

Re: INVALID CLAIM

August 18 2010, 5:40 PM 

Dave,

Your claim is going against tne grain. Truth is that the church that Jesus built does not teach and practice using mechanical music devices when the saints assemble for edification, teaching and admonition. The change agents operating in the brotherhood, as well as their ardent supporters, are the ravening wolves in sheep's clothing -- very determined to alter or modify, replace or even remove God's directives for the church.

Richland Hills, before adopting the Christian Church's teaching on mechanical-spiritual worship combo, did not advertise "Instrumental Worship" at all.

But when the Richland Hills congregation became the Christian Church's "Instrumental-Music-Transformed-Church-of-Christ" model, immediately it began advertising "Instrumental Worship."

Too bad that RHCC could not change its name to Richland Hills Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) as there was already an existing Richland Hills Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) in the community.

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
130.127.120.111

Re: INVALID CLAIM

August 19 2010, 1:12 PM 

William Crump boasted...."If a church of Christ advertises two instrumental worship services and two a cappella worship services, that church as much as says to the public, "We practice the IM teaching." It couldn't be any more obvious. Wake up, smell the coffee, and take off your blinders."

Again, here is the following advertisent.

----* Saturday (Instrumental Worship): 5:00 p.m.(CST)
----* Sunday (A cappella Worship): 9:00 a.m.(CST)
----* Sunday (Instrumental Worship): 11:30 a.m.(CST)
----* Wednesday (A cappella Worship): 7:00 p.m.(CST)

Since there are two services for each (instrumental, a capella), and neither gives precedent over the other with bold letters, bigger font, being underlined, etc., etc., please, anyone, tell us where the "obvious' would be? Now tell us William about smelling the coffee again??? Remember again, son, the church is NOT defined by whether it has or does not have instrumental, or four part harmony a capella in the worship service. Both four part harmony and insrumental music adresses the command for SINGING. Singing is accomplished whether you have four part harmony or instrumental music in regards to AIDING the singing.
happy.gif


 
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Donnie
(no login)
170.141.177.53

Re: INVALID CLAIM

August 19 2010, 2:59 PM 

Dave,

Thought we were discussing SPECIFICALLY the advertisement of "instrumental worship." You're deviating from the specific topic of "advertising" IM by injecting your opinion that singing is still accomplished with the artist performing the instrumental part of the "religious" orchestra. Not to mention that vocal singing is often discouraged and diminished and overpowered by the instruments.

So, back to advertising of "instrumental worship":

It is likely that the church of Christ, which does not use IM would show or display only their scheduled assemblies:

-- 8:00 a.m. - 9:00 a.m. ... First Worship
-- 9:15 a.m. -10:15 a.m. ... Bible Study
--10:30 a.m. -11:45 a.m. ... Second Worship

It is also likely that denominational churches would display the same as above (where instrumental music is understood and expected) -- the scheduled times only.

But a FORMER "church of Christ" congregation that NOW uses IM -- that did not use IM years ago -- would display a similar schedule as Richland Hills C.C. in order to advertise to the effect that: "We NOW have 'instrumental worship.'"

Oaks Hills Church (formerly "of Christ") has done the same thing as Richland Hills C.C.

The implication simply is: "Visitors, we welcome you; feel at home; we're no longer different and exclusive -- we now have instrumental music also."

Get the point, Dave?

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
69.59.106.52

Re: INVALID CLAIM

August 19 2010, 7:34 PM 

Richland Hills coC
----* Saturday (Instrumental Worship): 5:00 p.m.(CST)
----* Sunday (A cappella Worship): 9:00 a.m.(CST)
----* Sunday (Instrumental Worship): 11:30 a.m.(CST)
----* Wednesday (A cappella Worship): 7:00 p.m.(CST)

Then Donnie said....."But a FORMER "church of Christ" congregation that NOW uses IM -- that did not use IM years ago -- would display a similar schedule as Richland Hills C.C. in order to advertise to the effect that: "We NOW have 'instrumental worship.'"

You're getting there Donnie. At least you are acknowledging the fact that the the church of Christ is NOT nor ever will be defined by whether it has instrumental music of not A church of Christ does NOT relinquish it's title simply because they choose to worship God with instrumental music. It took time Donnie....but you are finally seeing the light. I told you that if you listened you would know the Truth and yes, Donnie, it will set you free!!!
John 8:32

Also, Donnie, none of the first four lines above, advertising the services, complies with your liberal CNN take of "We NOW have 'instrumental worship.'" It does NOT effectively show that in any way. So what if they don't take your traditional line of showing the Bible study hours also? I don't find any examples in the Scripture where the apostles posted any times of service at all. The advertising is for visitors anyway. Most visitors are going to go to a worship assembly first before going to the Bible study hour. Conventional wisdom Donnie (although you don't care much for conventional wisdom) is that if you can get the visitor coming to the worship hour, then word of mouth from the regular members will make sure that the visitors know about the Bible study hours. Now that some churches of Christ use instrumental music it is good to know which service is a capella and which is instrumental. Donnie, you need to learn this life of love that comes from being a Christian and heap praises on the brothers, not condemnation. Leave the judgment up to God. He can handle it....you can't!

Finally, Donnie, let's slightly REWORD your following statement. You said....."
The implication simply is: "Visitors, we welcome you; feel at home; we're no longer different and exclusive -- we now have instrumental music also."

CHANGED TO......
I, Donnie Cruz, believe because of my traditional views, that the signs say: 'Visitors, we welcome you; feel at home; we're no longer different and exclusive -- we now have instrumental music also.'

Also, notice where I took at your " " quotation marks Donnie? That wasn't a specific quote by anyone so it shouldn't have had said quotation marks. If you imply it yourself, then you can't and will not speak for everyone else.


 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: INVALID CLAIM

August 19 2010, 10:10 PM 

Dave,

You need to read my post again and again until the real message sinks in. You seem to still think that the transition that RHCC went through from non-IM to mechanical music, from deacons to "deaconesses also," from one scriptural teaching to something else, etc., did not happen. But it [the transition] did happen, Dave.

Let me put it simply for your benefit: For years and years the RHCC did not use musical objects to "enhance worship." Then the elders got "smarter" than the teachings of Christ and the apostles, and they recently, based on human wisdom, opined and decided to implement mechanical worship.

So far ... so good. Did you understand the transition?

Next point: Contrast:

(1) The meeting times including an early worship meeting, a Bible study time, and a later worship meeting [the second one because of the size of the congregation]. No mention of "instrumental worship" because it was understood that in either "worship service" there was no piano, trumpet, organ or sackbut or dulcimer in sight and in action.

(2) Whereas when musical devices began to be operated by professional musicians in one of the "worship services," it had to be noted by both members and visitors that musical devices would be played in one of the assemblies, but not in the other.

The idea of advertising to let people know that RHCC has adopted the acquired teaching from the Christian Church of allowing inanimate, lifeless musical instruments to participate in the assembly -- [THAT] did not come from me.

Why can't you grasp the transition made by the RHCC?

You, Dave, are denying the truth that the church that Jesus Christ built did/does not use musical objects in the assembly of saints. The Christian Church, officially recognized by the U.S. Census of 1906 as a separation from the church of Christ, uses musical devices in the assembly.

Still denying that fact, Dave?


P.S.: Dave, I'm just wondering if your congregation is about to make that transition to "instrumental worship."

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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