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Anonymous
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.9.233

Re: Different View of Holy Spirit

December 15 2012, 5:05 PM 

That is exactly why The Spirit OF Christ in Isaiah 50 identified the Musical Mockers or SMITERS or WOUNDERS which is the the Chalal form of the halal (praise) word which is used of play the flute, steal people's inheritance, pollute, prostitute or "as Lucifer was cast as profane out of heaven."

In Isaiah 55 He outlawed spending our bread money for the Free Water of the Word. In Isaiah 58 He outlawed seeking our own pleasure or speaking our own words on His REST day. Paul followed the same PATTERN in Romans 14 -- 15.

If this is true, then we understand why the command beginning with the Church in the wilderness was to PREACH the Word by READING the word. There are many who warn against letting the ahhs and uhhs intrude beyond "Yes and No." The Christian Discipline is founded on the fact that the Word has the included Spirit power only if we do not tamper with its DNA which "splicing" produces monsters you can see and hear in the morning.

If this is true the John who identified the "another Comforter" as Jesus Christ the RIGHTEOUS also said that if you DENY the One Father and One Son as the sole "actors" then John identifies you as ANTI-Christ. That is why it is folly to hire men who become the DEFACTO foundation of the church.

[linked image]

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.15.123

Re: Wayne Jackson Holy Spirit. Psalm 51 proves that it is OUR spirit needing sanctification

December 15 2012, 12:39 PM 

Waddey and half of the preachercraft he forbids (Acts 16:6).

WHO forbids? The SPIRIT Lord guided Paul into all truth

Acts 26:14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Acts 26:15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
Acts 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose,
.....to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen,
.....and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;


When the promised SPIRIT LORD appeared to Paul Jesus said it will be JESUS OF NAZARETH. The proof texts are so arranged that NO DISCIPLE can be mistaken.

Acts 16:6ASV And they went through the region of Phrygia and Galatia,
.....having been forbidden of the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia;
Acts 16:7ASV and when they were come over against Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia;
.....and the Spirit of Jesus suffered them not;


So, AS USUAL, the text equates the Spirit OF Jesus Christ to being JESUS CHRIST.

WESTCORT AND HORT

Acts 16.6WH Dilthon de tn Phrugian kai Galatikn khran, kluthentes hupo tou
.....hagiou pneumatos lalsai ton logon en t Asia,
Acts 16.7WH elthontes de kata tn Musian epeirazon eis tn Bithunian poreuthnai kai ouk eiasen
.....autous to pneuma Isou:

Acts 16.7 Jerome Latin cum venissent autem in Mysiam temptabant ire Bithyniam et non permisit eos Spiritus Iesu

Acts 16:7NET When they came to26 Mysia,27 they attempted to go into Bithynia,28
.....but the Spirit of Jesus did not allow29 them to do this,30

Acts 16:7NIV When they came to the border of Mysia, they tried to enter Bithynia,
.....but the Spirit of Jesus would not allow them to.


SPIRIT is WIND or BREATH: When Jesus of NAZARETH breathed the Apostle Paul heard WORDS.

John said that the ANOTHER COMFORTER was named JESUS CHRIST THE RIGHTEOUS.
There is ONE GOD ONLY who is FATHER
There is ONE SON acknowledged only after baptism
There is One Jesus whom God MADE TO BE both Lord and Christ.
Jesus is God's MESSAGE that He is God and there is NO OTHER to REPUDIATE men like Thomas who expected to ALSO see the father of the always pagan triad mostly of father, mother (spirit) and eternally infant mewling son.
John who recorded Jesus so that it CANNOT BE UNDERSTOOD also said that it is the mark of ANTI-Christ to DENY that One God in heaven and ONE MEDIATOR the MAN Christ Jesus.

 
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Rocky
(no login)
98.81.113.233

Re: Wayne Jackson Holy Spirit. Psalm 51 proves that it is OUR spirit needing sanctification

December 15 2012, 6:30 PM 


30 Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. 31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Matthew 12

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Wayne Jackson Holy Spirit. Psalm 51 proves that it is OUR spirit needing sanctification

December 15 2012, 8:08 PM 

Rocky,

That passage is frequently quoted to prove the individuality or the separate identity as a "person" of the Holy Spirit in the Catholic-originated Trinity dogma. There are issues and questions that can be raised concerning that assumption:

(1) That passage does not mention the Father in order to prove the "persons" that comprise the Trinity Doctrine (three persons but one God).

(2) When carefully studying the book of John and the other gospels, especially John chapters 12-14, it is the relationship between God and His Son that is clearly established. Communication was always between them, e.g., "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30). The "person" of the Holy Spirit was missing in either relationship or communication. Why was/is that?

(3) It is an undeniable truth that the "spirit of" God or the "spirit of" Jesus Christ is that spirit that belongs to the Lord. Remember the key preposition "OF" which indicates ownership (e.g., the mind OF Rocky is his alone; it does not belong to someone else; however, Rocky's mind is not the whole Rocky -- he's comprised of other entities and attributes).

(4) In conjunction with no. 3, what the Scripture says of "the Holy Spirit" does not contradict the truth that IT can be referred to as: the Spirit of God, the Spirit of the Lord, the Spirit of our Father, the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of Jesus Christ. [Please refer to other posts regarding the holy spirit of God.]

(5) The passage in Matthew 12 simply contrasts: (1) sin against God or man that can be forgiven versus (2) sin against the spirit or mind of [that belongs to] God that cannot be forgiven.

(6) The Scripture does not [I don't think it does] direct the Christian to "speak" to the holy spirit or mind of God: "Holy Spirit, forgive my sins."

 
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Scripture
(no login)
98.87.33.252

Prayer to Father (and Jesus?)

December 15 2012, 8:39 PM 

Jesus talking with the Disciples when they called Him, "LORD."

Acts 1:4 and, being assembled together with them, he charged them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which,'said he , ye heard from me: 5For John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit not many days hence.
6They therefore, when they were come together, asked him, saying, LORD, dost thou at this time restore the kingdom to Israel? ASV

Then Jesus ascended.

Prayer to the "LORD" (Jesus?) later in the chapter:

Prayer in Acts 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, LORD, who knowest the hearts of all men, show of these two the one whom thou hast chosen, 25to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas fell away, that he might go to his own place. 26And they gave lots for them; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles. ASV

As Donnie said, there is no such prayer (that I know of) where they prayed to the Holy Spirit, as such.


 
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Scripture
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98.87.33.252

The Comforter, Helper, and Advocate

December 15 2012, 6:41 PM 

Yes, it is noteworthy that Jesus said that it was necessary for Him to leave this earth so that the Comforter might come.

Then, even with His ascension, in Acts chapter 1, He continues to appear throughout the book of Acts.


 
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Scripture
(no login)
98.87.33.252

Blasphemy again Holy Spirit

December 15 2012, 8:26 PM 

If we implies that those who oppose "trinity" are lost, that requires not just faith in Christ, but adherence to that doctrine. Many of the trinitarians believe that one has to be correct on this doctrine of the trinity to inherit eternal life. When we require allegiance to that doctrine we are close to having a creed.

There is a "conservative" church in the Cumberland Mountains of Tennessee who are fighting the "change agents" but who also have a ten-point creed that all must adhere to. Who are the real "change agents?" Their next step might be to announce one of their beliefs under "What We Believe" is the the belief in the Trinity. That would be just a small step for them. "What We Believe" is rampant for churches now. Just look at their Internet sites. Don't some elders love it! This gives them real power!

It's rather strange that those who believe in trinity, would be that narrow--to think that those who don't agree with them are lost. But this is the way the neo-conservatives work--to discourage open discussion when they charge that some are lost because of non-trinitarian views, while they proceed to take away restoration of the early New Testament teaching.

This reminds me of the person in one of our local churches who would not sing "Have a little talk with Jesus," since he said that we must sing "Have a little talk with Father." The song was actually sung this way at this church. His opinion lowered Jesus beneath the Father. You can judge yourself about this change from "Jesus" to "Father."

Barton W Stone, and perhaps the Campbells, would be condemned by the neo-conservative Churches of Christ. So would most of the leaders of the 19th century.


 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: The Comforter, Helper, and Advocate

December 15 2012, 8:40 PM 

Yes, indeed, John 12-14, clearly -- when studied VERY carefully -- illustrates the sequence of events to occur between his time (while He was still alive) with His disciples and His resurrection and ascension. Briefly:

(1) 14:16 -- the Father shall give you another Comforter. Doesn't the word "another" indicate that there was an existing Comforter? That was Jesus Christ "in person" -- the visible, physical Comforter while He was with His disciples.

(2) 14:17 -- the "Spirit of TRUTH" whom the world cannot receive, because it SEETH him NOT. This is in contrast (from the standpoint of "visibility") to Jesus who had earlier pronounced: "I am the way, the TRUTH, and the life."

(3.a) 14:17 -- Jesus "the truth" DWELLETH WITH you.
(3.b) 14:17 -- the resurrected Jesus, the Spirit of truth SHALL BE IN you.

(4.a) 14:18 -- I (Jesus) will not leave you comfortless;
(4.b) 14:18 -- I (Jesus after resurrection) will COME TO YOU.

(5.a) 14:28 -- I go away,
(5.b) 14:28 -- and come again unto you [as that Spirit of truth, the Comforter].

Out of time for now. There are more points to present....

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.9.233

Blasphemy

December 15 2012, 9:09 PM 

Messiah had to be the SEED of Abraham: a man. God elevated Him to have ALL Authority of Father, Son and Spirit. If the NAME Jesus of Nazareth rules as king and priest: since His kingdom is spiritual it is logical that the King and High priest be in SPIRITUAL form which I don't have to fully grasp.

In Isaiah 8 Christ the SPIRIT said that if people do not speak according to the Law and Testimony (by Christ the Spirit) there is no light in them.

Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come (Matthew 12:31-32).

Jesus as the WORD still lives as the HOLY SPIRIT. The WORDS of a Spirit God ARE Spirit: the Words of God are not another PERSON. Blasphemy is saying that God said something He did not say: that DESPISES the Word and therefore DESPISES or blasphemes His WORDS. God's WORD is God's SPIRIT which means that His WORDS reveal His "mental disposition" or MIND.

JESUS SAID MY WORDS ARE SPIRIT

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth;
.....the flesh profiteth nothing:
..... the words that I speak unto you,
.....they are SPIRIT, and they are LIFE.


Therefore, if you do not PREACH the Word by READING the Word as commanded in the wilderness, then you DESPISE His Words so completely that you HALLUCINATE that your words are a "people" speaking to you.

Jesus said my WORDS are SPIRIT. If that is true then His WORDS are not another PEOPLE which would deny that there is ONE MEDIATOR the MAN Christ Jesus. No one knows ANYTHING about the Father which He has not revealed through the Spirit OF Messiah in the prophets and the prophecies made more certain by Jesus of Nazareth as messiah who made them more certain UNIQUELY to the Apostles who were eye-- and ear-- witnesses.

1Pet. 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify,
.....when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1Pet. 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves,
.....but unto us they did minister the things,
.....which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you
.....with the Holy Ghost [BREATH] sent down from heaven;
.....which things the angels desire to look into.
1Pet. 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober,
.....and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
1Pet. 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves
.....according to the former lusts in your ignorance:


Luke said that Messiah would give us KNOWLEDGE through the REMISSION OF SINS. People who think that THEY have "spirit" will despise the Words of God in song and sermon in the morning: Their LUSTS proves their IGNORANCE and their BLASPHEMING the Word of Christ.

Epithu_m-ia Passion, Appetite 2. . c. gen., longing after a thing, desire of or for theaomai ,
theaomai gaze at, behold, mostly with a sense of wonder, 3. view as spectators, esp. in the theatre, Isoc.4.44;
hoi themenoi the spectators, Ar.Ra.2, cf.Nu.518,


That means to DESPISE the WORD of Christ.
The Word of Christ is SPIRIT (mind)
Therefore, almost everything you do claiming to WORK meaning worship is BLASPHEMING THE HOLY SPIRIT of Christ.

2. The SPIRIT of Christ is that which Moses promised when the Israelites rose up in musical idolatry at Mount Sinai and never achieved the promised Rest:

2Cor. 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face,
.....that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2Cor. 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away
.....in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2Cor. 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Cor. 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
2Cor. 3:17 Now the Lord IS that Spirit:
.....and where the Spirit OF the Lord is, there is liberty.
2Cor. 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord,
.....are changed into the same image from glory to glory,
.....even as by the Spirit OF the Lord


3rd account.

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not:
..... I am thy fellowservant,
.....and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God:
.....for the testimony of Jesus IS the spirit of prophecy.


A Church (school) OF Christ is built upon (educated) the Prophets and Apostles: Jesus made to be the Christ is the ONLY source of spiritual knowwledge. IF you do not obey the PATTERN of the Synagogue or Ekklesia to STAND UP to Read and then SIT DOWN to discuss or answer any question then you do NOT follow in the steps of Jesus and you VIOLATE direct commands from the wilderness onward.

God would not be God and Jesus would not be His unique SON if the preacher or musicians to AID Him by opening their mouth to do a comedy routine and DENY that the Word means what it says. THAT is blaspheming the WORD of God which is His Spirit or Mind.

Isaiah 30:10 Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets,
.....Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:
Isaiah 30:11 Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.
Isaiah 30:12 Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word,
.....and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon:


Oppressioon is Tumultus tumultu armorum et cantuum truces, Tac. A. 4, 47: verborum,
canunt ignes subitosque tumultus, Of speech, confusion, disorder: sermonis

cano , to utter melodious notes, to sing, sound, play.

Pleasant things. In scenic lang., of players or pieces presented, to please, find favor, give satisfaction, please the gods;


Isaiah 30:13 Therefore this iniquity shall be to you as a breach ready to fall,
.....swelling out in a high wall, whose breaking cometh suddenly at an instant.


The Spirit OF Christ says that these ENEMIES can be identified by the SOUNDS of wind, string and percussion instruments: God is beating them into 'Hell.'

 
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Rocky
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98.81.113.233

Re: The Comforter, Helper, and Advocate

December 16 2012, 1:18 PM 

Alexander Campbell on Holy Spirit (partial)

Into these relations to the Father, to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit we are immersed; for the Lord commanded the believers to be immersed into the name of the Holy Spirit as well as into the name of the Father and the Son. To be immersed into the name of the Holy Spirit, prepares for the enjoyment of this communion; as being immersed into the Father, introduces into the enjoyment of the love of God; and as immersion into the name of Jesus Christ, introduces us into the favor of the Lord Jesus. This love, grace, and communion are the superlative glory of the Christian institution. They are equally apprehensible, though in their nature and modes of development incomprehensible. It is the duty, honor, and privilege of Christians to enjoy all that into which they are immersed. There is as much wisdom or folly in disparaging the communion of the Holy Spirit, as in undervaluing the love of God or the favor of Jesus Christ.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.16.252

Re: Wayne Jackson Holy Spirit. Psalm 51 proves that it is OUR spirit needing sanctification

December 16 2012, 2:54 PM 

Alexander Campbell on Holy Spirit (partial)

Into these relations to the Father, to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit we are immersed;


Father, Spirit and Son are RELATIONS in the One God: I think that is what Campbell said. Jesus claimed the roles of "father, spirit (mother) common in all pagan triads.

Jesus commanded that we not only be baptized in order to be saved (Mark 16:16) but that we also be baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost (Matt. 28:19), otherwise known as the Trinity. Those commands are quite clear.

But, no one in the early church ever baptized in the nameS of the "trinity" which was invented as "three persons" in 1942.

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Matt 28:18

How much POWER do you deny that HE has?

Power is: Ecousia (g1849) ex-oo-see'-ah; from 1832 (in the sense of ability); privilege, i.e. (subj.) force, capacity, competency, freedom, or (obj.) mastery (concr. magistrate, superhuman, potentate, token of control), delegated influence: - authority, jurisdiction, liberty, power, right, strength.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name (singular) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matthew 28:19

Name is: Onoma (g3686) on'-om-ah; from a presumed der. of the base of 1097 (comp. 3685); a "name" (lit. or fig.) [authority, character]: - called, (/ sur) name (-d).

The Greek ONOMA or name stands "for all that a name implies, of authority, character, rank, majesty, power, excellence... of everything that the name covers" (Vine, Name, p. 782)


There is only ONE name and if ALL authority is vested in the name SINGULAR of Jesus Christ then we baptize in the NAME of Jesus Christ.

Why? Because, neither Father, Son or Holy Spirit is a name of God. According to Zechariah His Name would be Jesus or Joshua which means Jehovah-Saves.

And Paul said For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Col 2:9

That does not leave any GODHEAD left over for "father" and "spirit." Jesus CHRIST came FULLY in the flesh: if there was TWO OTHERS on the "throne" then Jesus DID NOT come fully in the flesh and that makes you an ANTI-CHRIST. Peter agrees with me and NOT the Polytheists:

Therefore, Paul and the rest of the New Testament baptizes in the name of Jesus Christ. This was continued for many years. Quite LOGICALLY when they BEGAN to baptize in THREE NAMES they baptized THREE TIMES.

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38

Jesus is a name!

This was not a "baptismal formula" but a statement of the authority of Jesus to accept God's disciples.

"The nearest approach to a formal announcement of the doctrine of the Trinity which is recorded from Our Lord's lips, or, perhaps we may say, which is to be found in the whole compass of the NT, has been preserved for us, not by John, but by one of the synoptists. It too, however, is only incidentally introduced, and has for its main object something very different from formulating the doctrine of the Trinity. It is embodied in the great commission which the resurrected Lord gave His disciples to be their 'marching orders even unto the end of the world.' (Int Std Bible Ency., p. 3017)

"It does not say, 'In the names [plural] of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost";
nor yet 'In the name of the Father
and in the name of the Son,
and in the name of the Holy Ghost,'
as if we had to deal with three separate Beings. (Int Std Bible Ency., p. 3017)>
>

Preachers are presumptious when they put one hand INTO the air like an antenna and one hand on the candidate AS IF they were the CONDUIT for conducting the AUTHORITY.

The Jews: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for (in order to) the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38 Discussion of Eis,... Part Two,... Doctor Jack Lewis on Eis or For.

The Samaritans: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) Acts 8:16

The Gentiles: And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. Acts 10:48 (not lords)

Those baptized after Pentecost: When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Acts 19:5

Apostle Paul: And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. Acts 22:16 [This is the clear proof that the "pastor" has no authority to pronounce but Paul was to call on the name consistent with Proselyte baptism] And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest. Ac.22:8

I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth. Ac.26:9>


Romans 6: Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Romans 6:3
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Romans 6:4 >


Corinthians: Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? 1 Corinthians 1:13

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and BY the Spirit of our God. 1 Corinthians 6:11 >


Galatians: For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Galatians 3:27

James: Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called? James 2:7

If you call HIM "THEM" then you are blaspheming Jesus Christ which is THE name of the Holy Spirit as "another Comforter." Jesus said, "I and the Father are ONE." Sorry, people, but you are in the WRONG religion!

 
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Rocky
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98.81.113.233

Re: Wayne Jackson Holy Spirit. Psalm 51 proves that it is OUR spirit needing sanctification

December 16 2012, 3:17 PM 

As you can see, "in the name of the Lord Jesus" and "in the name of Jesus" speaks of "in the authority of Jesus." Therefore, when someone is properly baptized, they are baptized in the name of Jesus; that is, by the authority of Jesus. Therefore, when they are properly baptized in the name of Jesus, they should say, "I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit," just as Jesus commanded us to do

 
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Ken
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.13.227

Re: Wayne Jackson Holy Spirit. Psalm 51 proves that it is OUR spirit needing sanctification

December 16 2012, 7:49 PM 

Apparently NONE of the people who baptized so understood that.

Colossians 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed,
.....do all in the name of the Lord Jesus,
.....giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

There is no way to weasel out of that command. Note also, as always always always, God is the ONE God the FATHER..

Acts 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
Acts 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Jesus of Nazareth Was-Is the Lord or Ruler of our world: He is king, priests and RULES on His Throne. Only at the end of time will Jesus turn that throne over to the ONE GOD of the universe.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly,
.....that God hath made that same Jesus,>
.....whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

It may be terminal presumption for a preacher to put one hand on the candidate and point the other into "heaven" and pronounce that I BAPTIZE YOU. Father, Son and Spirit are NOT names. Jesus saves we NON-presumers who do not perform PRIESTLY duties as AGENTS of salvation. Here is the patter

Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest.
And he answered and said,
.....I believe that Jesus Christ
.....is the Son of God.


No preacher has any command, example or remote inference for saying ANYTHING between the confession and obedience. God pronounced Jesus His Son only AFTER He was baptized. Jesus was special but he obeyed that PROPHETIC TYPE by the Spirit OF Christ. We are God's Sons but we are ADOPTED by Jesus Christ into His kingdom. The Spirit OF Jesus is the Spirit OF Christ, the Spirit of God but never another PEOPLE inside of our bodies. Spirit other than wind (hot air) means BREATH or the Mental Disposition of God. That is why the MIND of Christ is equated to the Spirit OF God.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Philippians 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
1John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Acts 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.


There is NO BAPTISMAL FORMULA which you inherited from PRIESTS who presume the right to FORGIVE YOUR SINS.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Only One Name -- Never Three Persons

December 16 2012, 9:26 PM 

Rocky,

First, know that ConcernedMembers welcomes your participation.

Here are some observations which I believe are noteworthy in any attempt to resolve the role of the "Holy Spirit [Ghost] OF God":


  1. Note the number of occurrences in the Holy Scripture that a particular expression appears. The ONLY instance (in comparison to other "in the name of _______" expressions in the NT) in which "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" occurs is in Matt. 28:19.

  2. The Catholic-based Trinity Dogma believers use Matt. 28:19 only and mainly to prove that the "Holy Spirit" is the third person in the Godhead. [First, how did the Nicene Creed determine that the "Holy Spirit" is the THIRD person? Why not FIRST? Why not SECOND?]

  3. The Catholic-based Trinity Dogma believers' thought or consideration is NOT primarily about the need, design or purpose of baptism; rather, it is to prove the "personhood" of the Spirit.

  4. If the need for baptism (with its design and purpose) were the PRIMARY significant event in this particular passage, then, "in the name of" the 3 entities or "in the name of the Lord Jesus" should be scriptural.

  5. If Matt. 28:19 is the only passage that the Trinitarians can show to prove that the "Holy Spirit" is the THIRD person of the Trinity, that won't cut it. Why? Anyone can easily substitute any other entity: (a) "the mind of God"; (b) "His power"; (c) "the Spirit of truth"; (d) "the Comforter."

  6. The "Holy Spirit" is NOT a name; "Jehovah" is God's name; Jesus Christ is a name; but the word "spirit" is an improper noun that is neither masculine nor feminine. The improper noun "spirit" in this case is described by an adjective "holy" -- thus, the spirit of God which is HOLY.

  7. Is there a need to contrast Matt. 28:19 to all the other passages in Scripture that do not use exactly the same expression? Note these other passages:
    • In the name of the Lord -- (Matt. 21:9; 23:39; Mark 11:9,10; Luke 13:35; 19:38; John 12:13)

    • In the name of the only begotten Son of God -- (John 3:18)

    • In the name of Jesus Christ -- ([be baptized] Acts 2:38; 16:18)

    • In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth -- (Acts 3:6)

    • In the name of Jesus -- (Acts 4:18; 5:40; 9:27)

    • In the name of the Lord Jesus -- ([were baptized] Acts 8:16; 9:29; 19:5; Col. 3:17)

    • In the name of the Lord -- ([to be baptized] Acts 10:48; Jas. 5:10; 5:14)

    • In the name of Paul? -- (Is Christ divided ... [were ye baptized?] I Cor. 1:13)

    • In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ -- (I Cor. 5:4; II Thess. 3:6)

    • In the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit OF OUR God -- (I Cor. 6:11)

    • Unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ -- (Eph. 5:20)

  8. In all cases, from all the various passages that deal with "in the name of," we can be assured that there is ONLY ONE NAME involved -- NOT three: as (a) in the NAME of the Father, (b) in [another] NAME of the Son, and (c) in [another] NAME of the Holy Ghost. Again, it is only ONE [SINGULAR] name.

  9. I can think of one reason for Matt. 28:19 showing the singular NAME as a list of entities -- that Jesus gave that commission while He was still with his disciples. John 14 clearly defines and identifies Jesus as the disciples' living, visible Comforter while he was with and among his disciples. The promise of "another" Comforter was in reference to Jesus himself who, upon coming again to his disciples after his resurrection and ascencion, would be that "another" Comforter." "The truth" ("I am the truth" in John 14:6) was the human Jesus DWELLING WITH his disciples; upon returning to his disciples after his resurrection, he became the now-invisible "Spirit of truth." I believe that Matt. 28:19 was stated in that manner because Jesus, when he gave the commission, would be that Spirit of truth. The "Holy Spirit" in Matt. 28:19 cannot be proven as the third "PERSON" in the MAN-CONCOCTED Trinity Dogma. Remember that "communication and relationship" has always been between the Father and the Son (read John 14 again and again) -- the assumed THIRD PERSON was absent in the Father-Son relationship and communication. Why? The assumed third person in the Godhead does not exist. What existed throughout time, including the Old Testament period, has been the Father and His Son. The "spirit OF God" has manifested ITSELF in a number of forms: (wind, breath, power during creation and on the day of Pentecost). Or, "the spirit" can be the mind of God or the mind of Christ -- not a "PERSON."

    If one is to ascribe "Spirit" to a divine being, it can be in one of two ways:

    ----- (a) God is a Spirit. John 4:24 says to worship Him in spirit and in truth. God is HOLY. God is the Holy Spirit -- technically and scripturally speaking.

    ----- (b) Jesus Christ is the Spirit of truth, the "another Comforter" [John 14].


(Okay. I've just researched this in a detailed manner. I'm saving it as I may research further and expand this write-up.)

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.2.197

Re: Only One Name -- Never Three Persons

December 16 2012, 9:59 PM 

Well done. This proves the wisdom of the Spirit OF Christ (Christ was the ROCK) and verified in the epistles: the only way to DISCERN the mystery is by having A holy spirit which only works if you PREACH the Word by READING the Word.

Both Jew and Gentile were "wise unto salvation" because the synagogue was the choice for religious education which did not get you discorded and fleeced of your food money.

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

If I have quoted that 100 times it was because almost no one gets it in the 99th reading.

Sabbath (Rest) or Greek PAUO means STOP anything which comes in your personal preference brain and LISTEN to the READ Word. There are several passages to prove that the Day Star arises in your heard only when you give attendance to the Word (that worship concept).

 
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Rocky
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98.81.113.233

Re: Only One Name -- Never Three Persons

December 17 2012, 5:13 PM 




THE GODHEAD

Gary McDade

The word God in the Old Testament comes from the Hebrew word el meaning the Almighty (but also used of any deity).1 Brown-Driver-Briggs define el as God, the one true God, Jehovah (Yahweh).2 The word occurring most often in the Old Testament for God is elohim for the supreme God (plural).3 Brown-Driver-Briggs have the one true God.4 Two additional closely associated words translated into English as God are Yehovah meaning the self-existent or eternal Jehovah5 and Yehovih meaning the existing One.6 Aramaic, a kindred language to the Hebrew in which the Old Testament originally was written, is the language of the text in Daniel 2:4-7:28. The Aramaic word for God is elahh. The word God in the New Testament comes from the Greek word theos meaning God, the only and true God.7 Theos is the word found most often in the New Testament for God. Another word kurios often referring to God is translated Lord. Adonay is the word in the Old Testament for Lord. In all, the word God appears in the KJV 4443 times.8

The word God implies the Godhead and may refer to the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit or to them collectively. For example, the word elohim, meaning the supreme God is plural. In Genesis 1:26-27, a conversation concerning creation took place within the Godhead, And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them (emphasis added). The Hebrew word for God in this passage is elohim.

In the New Testament the word Godhead appears three times. Each time it draws attention to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The fact that these three persons are meant by the term Godhead is seen in Matthew 28:19 where the Great Commission as stated there is to baptize believers into the names of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit thereby making obedient believers members of the family of God, which is the church of the living God (Eph. 3:15; I Tim. 3:15; cf. also Acts 2:38, 47). The three are found mentioned collectively in other passages such as II Corinthians 13:14, The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. The Greek words theion and theotetos are translated Godhead in the KJV and ASV where once theotetos is translated divinity (Rom. 1:20). At Mars Hill Paul reasoned, Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device (Acts 17:29, emphasis added). The nature and power of the Godhead has been made manifest to the world so that there stands no excuse for not submitting to the authority of God, so argued Paul to the Romans, For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead [divinity, ASV]; so that they are without excuse (Rom. 1:20, emphasis added). The last reference to the Godhead as such is also from the pen of Paul, For in him [Jesus Christ] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily (Col. 2:9, emphasis added).

Across twenty long centuries the Bible has demonstrated its claim to be the word of the living God (II Tim. 3:16-17). The Bible is the unique source of authoritative information on the one true God of the universe. The apostle John wrote, Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world (I John 4:1).

ENDNOTES

1Biblesofts New Exhaustive Strongs Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary, Copyright © 1994 by Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.
2Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon, copyright © 1993.
3Strongs.
4Brown-Driver-Briggs.
5Strongs.
6Brown-Driver-Briggs.
7Thayers Greek Lexicon, electronic database, copyright © 2000 by Biblesoft.
8Strongs.


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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Only One Name -- Never Three Persons

December 17 2012, 5:44 PM 

Rocky,

It is good to know that you are one of those [not too many] who are knowledgeable of our RM heritage, of doctrinal issues that have been discussed and debated through generations.

It is not surprising that preachers and teachers (Wayne Jackson, Gary McDade, John Waddey, et al) -- considered "conservatives" by standards compared to ...


... to be continued ... I'll explain more ... later

... those who identify and align themselves with "progressive" liberalism -- may still have certain Trinitarian tendencies. But not completely.

These "conservative" teachers and preachers, to my knowledge, still cling to the truth that the "Holy Spirit" [however their understanding of "it" or "Him"] does not have a place in "its" or "His" direct operation in the life of a Christian.

It is admittedly confusing at times to assume or conclude that just because an entity is listed with other entities (e.g., that the Father is a "person" and that the Son is a "person", therefore, the holy spirit OF the Father or the holy spirit of Jesus Christ is also another "person").

There is nothing erroneous about naming all the entities as of the same type or category. An entity can be a person or thing. The holy spirit "OF THE LORD" is an entity, but it is NOT a person.

That "these three are one" [the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost] according to I John 5:7 (even though considered a "controversial segment" in various translations) ... simply suggests "unity." And they do not prove that the "Holy Ghost" is a person. Such unity is also suggested in the following verse: "And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one" (I John 5:8). [I didn't realize that improper nouns can "behave" like persons.]

The Holy Spirit is OF GOD [belonging to God] -- even if one simply says "Holy Spirit." We can all agree that "Holy Spirit" and "Holy Ghost" are used interchangeably in Scripture. This may seem "funny" to the reader, but we can accurately state "the Holy Ghost of the Lord God" in lieu of stating "the Holy Spirit of the Lord God."

"The Holy Ghost of the Lord"? "The Holy Ghost of God"? "The Holy Ghost of Jesus Christ"? What? We ask!!!

So, the Lord HAS [owns] a holy spirit or a holy ghost. That's correct.

At this juncture, I'm not going to condemn those who envision the Holy Spirit as a "dove descending from heaven" or as a "ghost" person.


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.249.211 on Dec 17, 2012 7:33 PM


 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Only One Name -- Never Three Persons

December 17 2012, 7:48 PM 

I believe that Ken Sublett has done more research than anyone else [therefore, more knowledgeable] concerning the subject of the man-concocted Trinity Doctrine during the Restoration Movement era -- what Alexander Campbell, et al, had to say about this dogma and not embracing such.

 
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Rocky
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98.81.113.233

Re: Only One Name -- Never Three Persons

December 17 2012, 8:42 PM 

Donnie, I admire Ken for all his research and standing by his convictions. Plus, I like his style! I read more at piney.com than you know. I take the easy way out and just post what others have said. I will give it a rest. I wish you all a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.2.13

Re: Wayne Jackson Holy Spirit. Psalm 51 proves that it is OUR spirit needing sanctification

December 17 2012, 9:04 PM 

John Mark Hicks Making Alexander Campbell into a trinitarian.

Humanity was created not in the image of ONE STRICT PERSONAL UNITY, but in the image and in the likeness of ONE NATURE IN THREE PERSONS. Quoting Genesis 1:26--Let us make man in our image, after our likeness, and let THEM (man) have dominion--Campbell stressed that social plurality is the nature of humanity and that such society was there in Jehovah when he created us in his image. Elohim includes God, the Word of God, and the Spirit of God just as man means Adam, Eve, and their offspring.

No classical trinitarian called God a PERSON. The word is PERSONAE or MASKS. Jesus said that truth had been HIDDEN in parables from the foundation of the world: this was to fool the merchant class. In Isaiah 48 the Spirit OF Christ said that if they knew anything they would SELL it and pretend that it was there idea.

Second, Moses wrote AFTER the instrumental fall from grace: he writes and INVERTED version you can read on clay tablets around a thousand years before Moses was born. The ELOHIM created the heavens and earth and it was a HOLY MESS. Isaiah 45 said that JEHOVAH did not create the earth EMPTY and VOID.

That's not the meaning of Elohim: all "gods" and Lords including Moses were called elohim. Genesis 1 says that the Elohim created heaven and earth. However, heaven and earth--in their old Egyptian religion the names of "gods." In Genesis 2 It is Lord God or Jehoah-Elohim who did the creating. We commune with our own spirit.

There are MANY elohym but OUR Elohim is Jehova the Lord

THAT SHOULD END THE POLYTHEISM ARGUMENT: We includes God, His Word and His Breath. It is easy to forget that his FIRST amazement about "community" is explained by Campbell's MORE confounded grasp of ONE GOD.

But that there is, and was, and evermore will be, society in God himself, a plurality as well as unity in the Divine nature, are inferences which do obtrude themselves on my mind in reflecting upon the divine communications to our race.

But, he rejects the use of human reason:

I will add, that common sense, reason, and revelation, give one and the same testimony, in my ear, upon this subject.

But I am not MORE confounded than delighted with the idea of the One, Self-existent, and Eternal God.... All the names of God are, with the exception of this one, the names of relations.


Not, names of seprated god person.

Christ in Jeremiah 10 and elsewhere DENY that the WE were elohim or other god persons.

Gen. 1:26 And God {Elohim}said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth

Who is this WE:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

God always had His Word and Wisdom and Breath with Him.

God's Word is always personified:

Jer. 1:2 To whom the word of the LORD came in the days of Josiah the son of Amon king of Juda In the thirteenth year of his reign.
Jer. 1:4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Jer. 10:1 Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:

Jer. 10:2 Thus saith the Lord, [Jehovah]
......Learn not the way of the heathen,
......and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven;
......for the heathen are dismayed at them.
Jer 10:10 But the Lord (Jehovah) is the
......[1] true (Elohim) God, he is the
......[2] living God (Elohim) , and an
......[3] everlasting king (ascends the throne):
...... at his wrath the earth shall tremble,
......and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.

......Declare what is to be, present it--
......let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past?

............Was it not I, the LORD? (Jehovah)
............And there is no God (Elohim) apart from me,
............a righteous (1) God (Elohim)
............and a (2) Savior;
......there is none but me. Isaiah 45:21

...... Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else;
......I am God, and there is none like me, Isaiah 46:9
...... (There could be no co-equal gods with Him)

......Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times
......the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand,
......and I will do all my pleasure: Isaiah 46:10

Jeremiah 10:11Thus shall ye say unto them,
......The gods (not true, Elah h426))
......that have not made the heavens and the earth,
......even they shall perish from the earth,
......and from under these heavens.


THEN WHO IS THE WE?

Jeremiah 10:12 He hath made the earth by his
......[1] power, he hath established the world by his
......[2] wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his
......[3] discretion. [intelligence, argument, reason, mentality]
Jer 10:13 When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens,
......and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth;
......he maketh lightnings with rain,
......and bringeth forth the WIND (h7307 Spirit) out of his treasures.

 
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