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Ray's Proof texts for a three-person trinity.

September 15 2010 at 10:23 PM
Ken Sublett  (Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
from IP address 72.171.0.142

I would ask that the irreverent diverters please do not go potty in this another attempt to be adult: I ask that any chatty cathy be deleted.

This is the proof-texts out of context passages used to prove what the Bible and all recorded history repudiates. That is before LU first preached in 1938 and fist published in 1942. This is the same level of scholarship displayed in much of the published material by what was called the "Gospel Advocate Wing" of the Church of Christ as opposed to the Firm Foundation Wing. John Mark Hicks still defends the Lipscomb view of several false teachings as opposed to the Texas wing.

RAY'S PROOFTEXTS:Since you are ignorant of the proofs already presented here from the one true source, God's Holy Word, I will post them again and see if you will choose to ignore the anti-scriptural heresy that Donnie and Ken promote, or if you will choose to ignore God's Word on His nature:

Matthew 28:18-19 - "Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"

John 1:32-33 - "I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, 'He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.'"

John 14:16-17 - "I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you."

John 14:26 - "the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you."

John 15:26 - "when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me."

John 16:7-11 - "I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged."

John 16:13-15 - "When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you."

Romans 8:26-27 - Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God

Romans 14:17-18 - For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.

Romans 15:16 - to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 15:30 - I appeal to you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf

1 Corinthians 2:2-5 - For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

1 Corinthians 6:11 - And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

1 Corinthians 12:4-6 - Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 - And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. [NOte - cross reference Acts 2:38-39]

2 Corinthians 13:14 - The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

Ephesians 2:18 - For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.

Ephesians 3:16-17 - that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faiththat you, being rooted and grounded in love

Ephesians 4:4-6 - There is one body and one Spiri tjust as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Colossians 1:6-8 - which has come to you, as indeed in the whole world it is bearing fruit and growingas it also does among you, since the day you heard it and understood the grace of God in truth, just as you learned it from Epaphras our beloved fellow servant. He is a faithful minister of Christ on your behalf and has made known to us your love in the Spirit.

1 Thessalonians 1:3-5 - remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 - But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

The Helper - parakletus - in John is call "HE" and is called the Holy Spirit from God. He is another helper - allos - which means another of the same type.

Jesus makes is clear that the Spirit is equal to and also different than the Father and the Son in Matthew - one NAME and three different personages with the ONE singular name.

And this is just a sampling from the inspired writings in God's Word.

So you can choose God's Holy Word and the teachings of the Churches of Christ. Or you can choose the ramblings of Donnie and Ken who teach what is contrary to the teachings of the Bible, and who also teach what is contrary to the teachings of the Churces of Christ.


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 67.142.130.41 on Sep 16, 2010 7:15 PM


 
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Ken Sublett
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ConcernedMembersMadison
72.171.0.142

Part One Matthew 28:18-19

September 15 2010, 10:55 PM 

Matthew 28:18-19 - "Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"

THIS IS THE PUNCH LINE FOR THE TRINITY: SIMPLE READING WILL DISMISS ALL OTHER PASSAGES AS SPEAKING OF A PERSON SEPARATED FROM THE PERSON TO WHICH IT BELONGS.

The so-called Baptismal Formula.

http://www.piney.com/BaptFormula.html


"The nearest approach to a formal announcement of the doctrine of the Trinity which is recorded from Our Lord's lips, or, perhaps we may say, which is to be found in the whole compass of the NT, has been preserved for us, not by John, but by one of the synoptists. It too, however, is only incidentally introduced, and has for its main object something very different from formulating the doctrine of the Trinity. It is embodied in the great commission which the resurrected Lord gave His disciples to be their 'marching orders even unto the end of the world.' (Int Std Bible Ency., p. 3017)

"It does not say, 'In the names [plural] of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost"; nor yet 'In the name of the Father, and in the name of the Son, and in the name of the Holy Ghost,' as if we had to deal with three separate Beings. (Int Std Bible Ency., p. 3017)


Father, Son and Spirit are NEVER names of people. A father can be a person, a son can be a person, a spirit can NEVER be a person. Spirit in Hebrew and Greek never means literally more than WIND. Wind is used to describe the invisible BREATH of God. Spirit means "the mental disposition" of a person. The Spirit OF Christ is the Spirit OF God is the MIND of Christ.

The NAME (singular here) of father, son and spirit is Jesus. In the economical sense Jesus is the One and Only manifestation of the godhead in which most Jews and Philip wanted to SEE the "father." The "father" among most false Jews was Zeus.

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Matt 28:18

Power is:

Ecousia (g1849) ex-oo-see'-ah; from 1832 (in the sense of ability); privilege, i.e. (subj.) force, capacity, competency, freedom, or (obj.) mastery (concr. magistrate, superhuman, potentate, token of control), delegated influence: - authority, jurisdiction, liberty, power, right, strength.

Power is in Jesus Christ FULLY: there is no more power to invoke in a magical baptismal formula.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the NAME (singular) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matthew 28:19

Name is:

Onoma (g3686) on'-om-ah; from a presumed der. of the base of 1097 (comp. 3685); a "name" (lit. or fig.) [authority, character]: - called, (/ sur-) name (-d).

The Greek ONOMA or name stands "for all that a name implies, of authority, character, rank, majesty, power, excellence... of everything that the name covers" (Vine, Name, p. 782)

Neither Father, Son or Holy Spirit is a name of God. According to Zechariah The Name Name of the BRANCH would be Jesus or Joshua which means Jehovah-Saves. There are many elohim (gods) but there is only one TRUE God Who is Jehovah.

And Paul said, to keep us from being anti-christs and deny His power to divest Himself of power and dwell "in a body prepared for me."

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Col 2:9

John said that the NAME of the Holy Spirit paraklete is "Jesus Christ the Righteous."
He said that if you deny that Christ is Father-Son you are an anti-Christ.

Therefore, Paul and the rest of the New Testament baptizes in the name of Jesus Christ. This was continued for many years. When people began to baptize in THREE NAMES they logically bapized or splashed three times. If you baptize in three names you had better baptize three times. Even then you will deny that full authority was vested in Jesus of Nazareth whom the ONE God the father "made to be both Lord and Christ."

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38

Jesus is a name!

This was not a "baptismal formula" but a statement of the authority of Jesus to accept God's disciples. If it were a formula Jesus might have said:

"baptizing them" by saying "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and (name) of the Son and (name) of the Holy Spirit." He did not.

This would be quite different from:

"baptizing them in the name (singular) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

NEXT: WHAT DID PETER AND EVERYONE ELSE UNDERSTAND?






    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 72.171.0.142 on Sep 15, 2010 11:13 PM


 
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Donnie Cruz
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ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Some false teachings about the spirit OF Christ

September 15 2010, 11:07 PM 

Ken,

Let's not forget to give credit to Ray who posted the above "message" you quoted in blue on September 15 2010, 8:12 AM titled "Check the older posts, Bill, for the TRUE source."

Ray preceded his message with:

"I posted the church fathers quotes merely to prove, not the triune nature of God, but that neither Donnie nor his source understand a lick of Church history."

Check out the thread "Holy Spirit: Third Person or the Mind of Christ."

 
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Ken Sublett
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ConcernedMembersMadison
72.171.0.142

Some False Teachings

September 15 2010, 11:20 PM 

Sorry, I missed giving Ray credit: If he will give us a "name" I would be happy to add it.

Donnie, Jump in with any further expounding on each of these proof texts. I would ask that the diverters not mess up a serious thread and ask that Ray not pile on EXTRA verses as a rebutal to what I post. If a given proof text does not prove what no historic trinitarian could imagine that God is "three separated persons" from all eternity then cumulative arguments will not make up for the failure.

 
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Ken Sublett
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ConcernedMembersMadison
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Part Two John 1:32-33

September 16 2010, 12:00 AM 

John 1:32-33 - "I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, 'He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.'"

See my notes here

http://www.piney.com/HsLikeADove.html

I looked at this on the other thread and made my comments into images to show my formatting.









 
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Ken Sublett
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ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.14

Response to Ray #3: John 14:16-17

September 16 2010, 1:30 PM 

John 14:16-17 - "I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you."

I am not aware than any of Polytheistic Sect of the Restration Movement has ever or can ever quote John 14 in context. By absolute necessity a preacher is trained and hired to uphold the dogma of a local congregation. It's elders have almost always been chosen by their civic standing and "as the Lord has prospered them." Church or ekklesia (synagogue) is commanded to teach that which has been taught. LU by John Mark Hicks etal defend the Tritheism first articulated out of DLC in 1938 and first in print in 1942 and thus into the Bible Class material of the Gospel Advocate wing.

http://www.piney.com/Earl.Edwards.Trinity.html
http://www.piney.com/Trinity.Hicks.Rochester.html

JESUS DIDN'T PROMISE ANOTHER PERSONAL SPIRIT AS COMFORTER. There are Two Actors in John 14

God the Father in heaven OF whom is all things
Jesus of Nazareth whom God made to be both Lord and Christ BY whom

1Cor. 8:6 But to us there is but one God,
......the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him;
......and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly,
......that God hath made that same Jesus,
......whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

ONLY the Father-Son abides IN believers (specificially the Apostles) to the extent they obey the Words of Christ the ONLY mediato between man and God. There is no 'spirit abiding' listed separately because the Comforting Spirit is named Jesus Chrit.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life:
......no man cometh unto the Father,
......but by me.

THERE IS NO "SPIRIT" PERSON BETWEEN FATHER AND SON: JUST THE BREATH OF THE FATHER WITHIN

John 14:7 If ye had known me,
......ye should have known my Father also:
......and from henceforth ye know him,
......and have seen him.

John 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?
......he that hath seen me hath seen the Father;
......and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

John 14:10 Believest thou not that
......I am IN the Father,
......and the Father IN me?

SPIRT IS MIND: DOES NOT HAVE A NAME

the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself:
......but the Father that dwelleth in me,
......he doeth the works.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth;
......the flesh profiteth nothing:
......the WORDS that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT, and they are life.


The Son (word) SPEAKS only what comes by the BREATH of the Father. Therefore, this is the meaning of spirit without measure. Or as defended by SPEAK which is the opposite of poetry or music, this can be read that God bestows His BREATH to create Words in His Son 'Without Meter." That is why you are in radical revolt if you compose your own songs and sermons and then deliver them in the performing role of a HYPOCRITE which Jesus marked as "rhetoricians, singers and instrument players.

John 14:11 Believe me
...... that I am IN the Father,
......and the Father IN me:
......or else believe me for the very works sake.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you,
......He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also;
......and greater works than these shall he do; (Apostles: blood, sweat, taers)
......because I go unto my Father.

John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name,
......that will I do,
......that the Father
......may be glorified in the Son.

John 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

CONDITIONAL

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father,
......and he shall give you another Comforter,
......that he may abide with you for ever;

The Comforter is: G3875 parakltos par-ak'-lay-tos An intercessor, consoler:advocate, comforter.

IF THE COMFORTER IS SENT BY THE FATHER IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST, WHAT IS THE NAME OF THE COMFORTER.

1John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.
......And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father,
......Jesus Christ the righteous:

The Advocate is: G3875 parakltos par-ak'-lay-tos An intercessor, consoler:advocate, comforter.

His name (singular) is Jesus Christ the Righteous.

1John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins:
......and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

Only the man Jesus of Nazareth was "a body prepared for Me" meaning Christ. There is only ONE Mediator: No, musical worship teams CANNOT lead you into th presence ofGod.

1Tim. 2:5 For there is one God,
......and one mediator between God and men,
......the man Christ Jesus

WHOA! WHAT THE POLYTHEISTS CAN NEVER QUOTE

John 14:17 Even the Spirit OF truth;
whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him:
but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless:
......I will come to you.


John 14:19 Yet a little while,
......and the world seeth me no more;
......but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that
......I am IN my Father,
......and ye in me,
......and I in you.

The Abiding is mutual: Father/Son abides in the OBEDIENT in the same sense that the OBEDIENT abides in the father.

IN does not mean INSIDE OF. When the Father-Son Abides in US in the SAME WAY we abide in HIM, there is no "spirit person" named which would repudiate what all of the "summing up writers" use as the only authority by which the addressed believers who were not being led into ALL TRUTH by the personal and audible Jesus Christ.


 
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Ken Sublett
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ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.41

Ray's Proof Texts Part # 4

September 16 2010, 7:52 PM 

ANOTHER COMFORTER DOES NOT MEAN A DIFFERENT OR AN ADDITIONAL COMFORTER.

Richard Rogers speaking for the Trinitarian Sect of Churches of Christ

http://www.piney.com/Richard.Rogers.Holy.Spirit.Indwelling.html

And Jack Cottrell representing some of the instrumental group

http://www.piney.com/Jack.Cottrell.Holy.Spirit.Conversion.html


And probably lots of scholars who don't bother to define words, take "another" to mean ONE MORE IN ADDITION TO. That is why they say that we have TWO INTERCESSORS. Never mind that the same John said that this comforter is Jesus Chist.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14.[16] et ego rogabo Patrem et alium paracletum dabit vobis ut maneat vobiscum in aeternum

Another in Latin: Alius C. Alius ex alio, super alium, post alium, one after another; so often of the connection between ideas:
E. Of another kind or nature, i. e. different; hence, alium facere, to make different, to change, transform; and alium fleri, to become different, to be wholly changed:


Jesus did not make room for ONE MORE COMFORTER. Instead, He was another because He was wholly changed.

G3339 metamorpho met-am-or-fo'-o From G3326 and G3445 ; to transform (literally or figuratively metamorphose):change, transfigure, transform.

Another in Greek: Allos of another kind
III. Less frequently of = alloios, of other sort, different,


Because the "another" Comforter will be Jesus of Nazareth in another form, the word "Allos" here cannot mean another one besides.

IN THE LITERTURE:

Hom. Il. 4
[255] At sight of them Agamemnon, king of men, waxed glad, and forthwith he spake to Idomeneus with gentle words: Idomeneus, beyond all the Danaans with swift steeds do I show honour to thee both in war and in tasks of other sort, and at the feast, when the chieftains of the Argives let mingle in the bowl the flaming wine of the elders.
"

Jesus will not return as The Holy Spirit as a third person but,

John 14:17 Even the Spirit OF truth;
whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him:
but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless:
......I will come to you.


Please sign up for Donnie's course on Prepositional Phrases

When Jesus as "I" return as the changed Comorter, what is His NAME?

1John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.
......And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father,
......Jesus Christ the righteous:


Jesus said "I" will come to you. The same John said the Comforter will be Jesus Christ: in a metamorphosed form. If Casper materializes he will still be Casper. Jesus appeared to and spoke to Paul in "Spirit" and promised to be with Him when needed. "A" holy spirit person never spoke to Paul. Jesus Christ also warned Peter that his time was short.

John 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you,
......being yet present with you.

Being yet present with you proves that He will not be WITH THEM in a visible sense in the PRE METAMORPOSED for which made the same Jesus ANOTHER.

The Father will send the Comforter "in the name" Jesus of Nazareth as He appeared to and spoke to Paul.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost,
......whom the Father will send in my name, (His Name will be Jesus of Nazarth)
......he shall teach you all things,
......and bring all things to your remembrance,
......whatsoever I have said unto you.

This does NOT apply to people who were not hand picked by Jesus, taught and validated Himself by signs and wonders, and Who have had a visit from the Risen jesus, SAW Him, Heard Him and commissoned BY Him. Peter and the others left this MEMORY in written form as a way to MARK anyone who does not "teach that which AS BEEN taught." If you hallucinate singing--arrived in 373--the direct command in Romans 15 is to "use that which is written, for our teaching, using on mind and one mouth."

The Spirit OF Christ, the Spirit OF Truth, will not have any words to tell a preacher than he can lie to and about al of God's Word and sow discord by saying "God commanded instrumental praise and you hd better not disobey."

If he hears "a" spirit it is a lying spirit.



    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 72.171.0.146 on Sep 16, 2010 9:10 PM


 
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Ken Sublett
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ConcernedMembersMadison
72.171.0.146

Review of Ray's texts, # 5

September 16 2010, 9:09 PM 

John N15:26 - "when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me."

One of Donnie's post shows that the three people family of gods (extreme and beyond historic triniarianism) is not just an option. People will say "that's not a salvation issue" which gives that person to spread dogma which is DESTRUCTIVE to all other aspects of the Chistian System.

Repeat: there are only TWO ACTORS which appear in all of the sallutatins:
God, the Father as the invisible, Inaudible Deity of the universe.
Jesus of Nazareth whom God made to be both Lord and Christ.

In the economic sense, the always-pagan trinity mostly of father, mother and little son is radically repudiated when God vested ALL of the authority and roles of the pagan triads in the ONE MAN, Jesus of Nazareth. This was to manifest or PROVE to the pagan world that there might be "gods many" but there is only one Lord God or Jehovah-the only real Elohim. It comes as no surprise that the VISUAL AID to DISPROVE the aways-pagan triad or "families of gods" required, in the words of John Mark Hicks to have "their own center of consciousness" so they could hold COMMUNION.

John 15 has Jesus proving that that neither God the incomprehensible nor Jesus as visible Lord SPEAK to these people: that is why they cannot read BLACK text on BROWN paper.

John 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants;
......for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth:
but I have called you friends;
......for all things that I have heard of my Father
......I have made known unto you.

There is nothing more to be revealed in sermonizing or versifying.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you,
......that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain:
......that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
John 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.
John 15:18 If the world hate you,
......ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

......1John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world.
............If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

The WORLD or KOSMOS IS EXCLUDED

G2889 kosmos kos'-mos Probably from the base of G2865 [providiing, carry, obtain] ; orderly arrangement, that is, decoration; by implication the world (in a wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitants, literally or figuratively [morally]):adorning, world.

5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc,
which although hollow and frail and fleeting,
stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ


This points to the system Paul silenced in Romans 14: the Pythagoras disciples were included with the Orphic and Bacchic systems. He made the music of the spheres the center of his system.

......1John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life,
............is not of the Father, but is of the world.
......1John 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof:
............but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever

NOT ONLY IS THE WORLD ESPECIALLY THOSE STIRRING UP PASSION AND PRIDE EXCLUDED FROM JESUS' PRAYER, BUT:

Luke 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth,
that thou hast hid these things from the WISE and prudent,
and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

THE WISE LIKE THE WORLD CAN BE EASILY MARKED AND AVOIDED.

Sophis-tês , ou, ho, master of one's craft, adept, expert, of diviners, Hdt.2.49; of poets, meletan sophistais prosbalon Pi.I.5(4).28 , cf. Cratin.2; of musicians, sophistês . . parapaiôn chelun A.Fr.314 , cf. Eup.447, Pl.Com. 140; sophistêi Thrêiki (sc. Thamyris) E.Rh.924, cf. Ath.14.632c: with mod

II. from late v B.C., a Sophist, i.e. one who gave lessons in grammar, rhetoric, politics, mathematics, for money, such as Prodicus, Gorgias, Protagoras, a quibbler, cheat, a RHETORICIAN as the primary meaning of a HYPOCRITE.
hoi s. tn hiern meln A sophist, serpent, makes MUSICAL MELODY with a congregation AS a harp and cannot grasp that IN THE HEART is a place


THAT'S WHY THEY ARE DELUSIONAL: LYING WONDERS INCLUDE ALL PERFORMANCE "WORSHIP" CLAIMING THAT THE SPIRIT IS LEADING THEM.

If you remember chapter 14:

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost,
......whom the Father will send in my name,
......he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance,
......whatsoever I have said unto you.

Now, notice that Jesus says "I will send from the Fater." In chapter 14 He said "I" will come to you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come,
......whom I will send unto you from the Father,
......even the Spirit OF truth,
......which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Therefore, perfectly logical and understanabe by anyone who cares enough to read the Word:

......MY little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.
............And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father,
............Jesus Christ the righteous: 1Jn.2:1

THERE IS NOT ANOTHER SPIRIT STANDING BETWEEN FATHER AN SON.

John 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with ME from the beginning.

That simply cannot apply to any human living today: Peter lft us a "memory" as the only way to identify a false teachr. Who is a false teacher? He is anyone who does NOT teach that which HAS been taught in the Words in which it is taught.

Don't count it strange that the rise of a neo-trinitarianism has been a host of delusional people who believe that their own imagination or "doubtful disputation" is in fact the Holy Spirit telling them they can lie about the olden Father and Son. Lying Wonders include all of the performing arts.


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 72.171.0.146 on Sep 16, 2010 9:12 PM


 
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Donnie Cruz
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ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Baptizing "in the name of" vs."in the name of"

September 17 2010, 2:16 AM 

One of the proof texts that Ray and his fellow Trinitarians use in order to prove the "holy spirit OF God" is the THIRD PERSON in the man-invented Trinity Doctrine is found in Matt. 28 --
[18] And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
[19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
[20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

So, the big question is -- How and when did the "spirit of the Lord" become the third PERSON of the TRINITY doctrine? Was the development of the Trinity creed evolutionary? YES!!! Did not the church of Rome [Catholic-to-be] officially decree the doctrine during the Council of Nicea? YES!!!

What (not "who") is "the holy spirit OF God"?

How many times does the Holy Scripture have to identify the Holy Spirit? Let's review [from other related threads]. There are innumerable references to the truth:


  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the Lord
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF God
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF our God
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the living God
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Christ
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Jesus Christ (Phil. 1:19)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Him
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the Lord God
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF His Son
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the holy Spirit OF God
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the Father (Matt. 10:20)

    Plus, whose Spirit?

  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. HIS Spirit (Rom. 8:11; I Cor. 2:10; I John 4:13)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. HIS holy Spirit (Isa. 63:10,11; I Thess. 4:8)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Him that raised up Jesus (Rom. 8:11)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit which is OF God (I Cor. 2:12)

There is no indication whatsoever from all the expressions and descriptions regarding "the holy spirit OF our Lord God" (and they're all found in and throughout the Holy Scripture) ... is a PERSON or BEING.

The reason for the list of expressions and descriptions is simply the truth that "... of the Holy Ghost" can easily be one of the "a.k.a." identifications listed above; e.g., "... of the spirit which is OF God."

One other question is this: What is it about "baptizing ... in the name of"? Why is the word "name" singular (instead of "three names")? Why is "teaching and baptizing" somewhat lost in the message being conveyed just to prove that a list of [three] entities is comprised of the assumedly three PERSONS in the Trinity doctrine?

Now: "Go ... teach ... baptizing them in the name of...." in Matt. 28:19,20. Teach what? The gospel of Christ. What is it? "For ... the gospel of Christ ... is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth..." (Rom. 1:16).

It is about our Lord Jesus Christ and man's redemption in His blood.

Acts 2:38 [oh, yes, members of the church are very familiar with this passage: "... Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins...."

What's the difference between: (a) "baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost" and (b) "[being] baptized in the name of Jesus Christ"?

NOTHING!!! After all, it was Jesus who said,"Go ... teach ... baptize" and it is the same Jesus in whose name one is baptized unto the remission of sins.

"IN THE NAME OF the Father, Son, Holy Ghost"
is a.k.a.
"IN THE NAME OF the Lord Jesus"


Consider other truths regarding baptism "in the name of Jesus Christ":

  • Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (Rom. 6:3,4)

  • And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. (Acts 22:1)

  • When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (Acts 19:5)

  • And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. (Acts 10:48)

  • But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. (Acts 8:12)

  • (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) [Acts 8:16)

  • For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. (Gal. 3:27)

  • Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. (Col. 2:12)

  • The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: (I Peter 3:21)

The "Holy Ghost" in Matt. 28 is not another PERSON or BEING. Rather, it refers to the holy spirit that God or Christ possesses.


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 170.141.177.53 on Sep 17, 2010 10:30 AM


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
72.171.0.141

Not three names!

September 17 2010, 11:18 AM 

And since this "formula" is recognized as being the CORE of trinitarian dogma,

1. And since Peter heard the command given by Jesus,
2. And Peter and everyone else commanded to be baptized IN THE NAME of the Lord,
3. That the NAME of Father, Son and Spirit is Jesus Christ.
4. To conclude otherwise is to deny that Jesus of Nazareth imaged forth the fullness of the Godhead BODILY.

That is because we cannot comprehend the The Lord (Jehovah) as the only true God (Elohim).

When the transfigured or metamorphosed Lord caused Paul to see and hear HIM, He said, "I am Jesus of Nazareth" meaning the same one Paul persecuted.

Ats 22:14 And he said,
......The God of our fathers has chosen thee beforehand
......to know his will,
......and to see the just one,
......and to hear a voice out of his mouth;

Acts 22:15 for thou shalt be a witness for him to all men
......of what thou hast seen
......and heard.

Acts 22:16 And now why lingerest thou?
......Arise and get baptised, and have thy sins washed away,
......calling on his name.

God wanted Paul to see and hear the risen "Just One."
Paul was told to call on the NAME of HIS Name.

Who appeared to and spoke to Paul to qualify him to be an apostle

Acts 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord?
......And he [said], I am Jesus, whom thou persecutest.
Acts 22:8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord?
......And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest
Acts 26:15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord?
......And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest:

Acts 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel,
......that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, w
......hom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
Acts 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other:
......for there is none other name under heaven given among men,
......whereby we must be saved.

At baptism for a proselyte one openly answered "into whom are you being baptized?"

In apprentice baptism, the person being baptized confessed that he was requesting discipleship to Aaron, the master Tent Maker.

 
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Dave
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130.127.120.200

Understandable

September 17 2010, 3:48 PM 

I guess this would make sense if you could get Ray to join in on the discussion.

Don't count it!

 
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Donnie
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170.141.177.53

Are you referring to...?

September 17 2010, 4:25 PM 

Dave,

Are you referring to any particular post(s) or to the entire thread?

Either way we always welcome Ray to participate in the discussion. After all, this thread is concerning the proof texts he has provided from Scripture intended to prove the validity of the Trinity Doctrine -- that "the holy spirit OF God" (i.e., His spirit) is a[nother] or is the Third Person of the "Trinity."

So far, we have been discussing what Jesus said, "Go ... teach ... baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost ... teaching to observe His commandments...." in Matt. 28. Comparing that to other several passages on baptizing "in the name of the Lord Jesus."

So far, we have been discussing "the Comforter" and "the Spirit of truth" in John chapters 14-16.

There are more passages that Ray has quoted from Scripture. Non-Trinitarians quote them, too. So, it is a matter of discussing whether or not those passages support the Trinity Doctrine that "the holy spirit of Jesus Christ" is ANOTHER PERSON/BEING in the Godhead.

What does a spirit consist of? As in "the spirit of Ray" or "the spirit of Dave." Is your spirit (though UNITED with you) a different or another person from you?

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.22

Response to Ray's Proof-Texts #6

September 17 2010, 6:16 PM 

John 16:7-11 - "I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged."

John 16:13-15 - "When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you."


REMEMBERING THAT "SPIRIT" IN HEBREW AND GREEK MEANS LITERALLY "A WIND." The Wind is the instrument of threshing: invisible and powerful: it has no name.

Only symbolically does spirit speak of the Breath of God by which He speaks and purges His enemies.
In the Prophets the promise or threat is the spirit of FIRE and the spirit of JUDGMENT.

Jer. 5:13 And the prophets shall become wind,
......and the word is not in them: thus shall it be done unto them.
Jer. 5:14 Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts,
......Because ye speak this word,
......behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire,
......and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

John promises the religious operatives a baptsm of WIND and of FIRE: these were the symbols promised and fulfilled in the upper room.

Matt. 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism,
......he said unto them, O generation of vipers,
......who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Matt. 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
Matt. 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves,
......We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you,
......that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Matt. 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees:
......therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down,
......and cast into the fire.
Matt. 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance:
......but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear:
......he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost (WIND), and with fire:
Matt. 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand,
......and he will throughly purge his floor,
......and gather his wheat into the garner;
......but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

WHEN CHRIST RETURNED IT WOULD BE AS A REFINING WIND

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away:
......for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you;
......but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

The Paraklete would participate -- as prophesied -- in comforting or BEARING UP the Apostles as they applied the WIND to disclose the wheat. The baptism of WIND was for the viper race which would find their rest in Topheth: the garbage heap.

John 16:8 And when he is come,
......he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
John 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
John 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

The Apostles were not fully prepared. Anyone who claims that a spirit told them to lie about the text (most songs and sermons) can be easily unmasked: are they prepared to follow Jesus and go out into the world prepared to suffer and die? Or do they blow a hot east wind from their belly.

In 16:12 Jesus had MANY THINGS TO SAY.

Job 15:2 Should a wise man utter vain knowledge, and fill his belly with the east wind?
Job 15:35 They conceive mischief, and bring forth vanity, and their belly prepareth deceit

John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you,
......but ye cannot bear them now.

After the Apostles were prepared, Jesus of Nazareth "still had many things to tell them."

The Apostles would not have the human power to exalt the Words which Jesus of Nazareth had delivered to them. Jesus said My words ARE Spirit and the are LIFE.

Bastazo 2. metaph., lift up, exalt, ennoble, Pi.O.12.19; b. tina kharitessin Id.I.3.8.
II. bear, carry, 3. b. en gnm bear in mind, consider, weigh, A.Pr.888; phreni Ar.Th.437 (lyr.); b. probouleuma deliberate on . . , Eup.73; bastasas hairsomai on consideration,


John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit OF truth, is come,
......he will guide you into all truth:
.........John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
.........Jesus said my WORDS are SPIRIT and Life.
.........The Word is not a "person" but the Word is God's Spirit meaning "mental disposition."
......for he shall not speak of himself;
......but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak:
......and he will shew you things to come.

When the musical bandits claim that a spirit told them to lie, cheat and steal the church houses of widows, BELIEVE THEM. It is a lying spirit. In the case of the Jerusalem clergy it was the DEVIL in spirit speaking to them making them "sons of the Devil."

When the Spirit or Mind of Christ came upon the Apostles (only) with power on the day of Pentecost, those who had virtually cowered under their own power went out in the streets and began pourng the SPIRIT OFJUDGMEN all over the heads of te Jews. This winnowing WIND resulted in a million Jews who refused to flee Jerusalem to be liteally burned up wth a wind-fed fire.

This Spirit Jesus would enable the weak Apostles who now KNEW the truth to "bear" it and lift up, exalt or enoble the literal words of the Livng Word so that they were "God Breathed" and put into a form which dares anyone to private interpret or "further expoun" that which has been enobled once and for all times.

Jesus has "many things to tell the apostles." They could not make the Word of Christ the virtual Spirit of Christ. Jesus Christ finished TELLING the Apostles what thy needed by giving them the very Mind of Christ. There is no other person with anything to say.

Jesus says, it will still be ME speaking to you from my new post-transfiguration body:

John 16:14 He shall glorify me:
......for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
John 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine:
......therefore said I, that he shall take of mine,
......and shall shew it unto you.
John 16:16 A litt

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.33

More on Genesis 1

September 20 2010, 11:03 PM 

John Mark Hicks Making Alexander Campbell into a trinitarian.

Humanity was created not in the image of ONE STRICT PERSONAL UNITY, but in the image and in the likeness of ONE NATURE IN THREE PERSONS. Quoting Genesis 1:26--Let us make man in our image, after our likeness, and let THEM (man) have dominion--Campbell stressed that social plurality is the nature of humanity and that such society was there in Jehovah when he created us in his image. Elohim includes God, the Word of God, and the Spirit of God just as man means Adam, Eve, and their offspring.

That's not the meaning of Elohim: all "gods" and Lords including Moses were called elohim. Genesis 1 says that the Elohim created heaven and earth. However, heaven and earth--in their old Egyptian religion the names of "gods." In Genesis 2 It is Lord God or Jehoah-Elohim who did the creating. We commune with our own spirit.

THAT SHOULD END THE POLYTHEISM ARGUMEN: We includes God, His Word and His Breath. It is easy to forget that his FIRST amazement about "community" is explained by Campbell's MORE confounded grasp of ONE GOD.

But that there is, and was, and evermore will be, society in God himself, a plurality as well as unity in the Divine nature, are inferences which do obtrude themselves on my mind in reflecting upon the divine communications to our race.

But, he rejects the use of human reason:

I will add, that common sense, reason, and revelation, give one and the same testimony, in my ear, upon this subject.

But I am not MORE confounded than delighted with the idea of the One, Self-existent, and Eternal God.... All the names of God are, with the exception of this one, the names of relations.


Not, names of seprated god person.

Christ in Jeremiah 10 and elsewhere DENY that the WE were elohim or other god persons.

Gen. 1:26 And God {Elohim}said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth

Who is this WE:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

God always had His Word and Wisdom and Breath with Him.

God's Word is always personified:

Jer. 1:2 To whom the word of the LORD came in the days of Josiah the son of Amon king of Juda In the thirteenth year of his reign.
Jer. 1:4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Jer. 10:1 Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:

Jer. 10:2 Thus saith the Lord, [Jehovah]
......Learn not the way of the heathen,
......and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven;
......for the heathen are dismayed at them.
Jer 10:10 But the Lord (Jehovah) is the
......[1] true (Elohim) God, he is the
......[2] living God (Elohim) , and an
......[3] everlasting king (ascends the throne):
...... at his wrath the earth shall tremble,
......and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.

......Declare what is to be, present it--
......let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past?

............Was it not I, the LORD? (Jehovah)
............And there is no God (Elohim) apart from me,
............a righteous (1) God (Elohim)
............and a (2) Savior;
......there is none but me. Isaiah 45:21

...... Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else;
......I am God, and there is none like me, Isaiah 46:9
...... (There could be no co-equal gods with Him)

......Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times
......the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand,
......and I will do all my pleasure: Isaiah 46:10

Jeremiah 10:11Thus shall ye say unto them,
......The gods (not true, Elah h426))
......that have not made the heavens and the earth,?
......even they shall perish from the earth,
......and from under these heavens.


THEN WHO IS THE WE?

Jeremiah 10:12 He hath made the earth by his
......[1] power, he hath established the world by his
......[2] wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his
......[3] discretion. [intelligence, argument, reason, mentality]
Jer 10:13 When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens,
......and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth;
......he maketh lightnings with rain,
......and bringeth forth the WIND (h7307 Spirit) out of his treasures.


The Lord always sends the WORD the Word of the Lord which SPEAKS. WE in Genesis included His Wisdom which according to proverbs existed in a personified sense. This, in fact, repudiates all pagan triads where ON God was not capable of doing things without other god persons.

 
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There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

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Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

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Here is the list of players;

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