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A Concerned Member Of The Church (Rom. 3:24)

October 9 2010 at 12:32 AM
Sonny  (no login)
from IP address 99.186.93.107

I am concerned about religious bullies and religious hypocrites. I am concerned about preachers who post rebuking remarks toward "progressive churches", etc. on this site who have a "history" of [a "specific" sin that "I know" about] while teaching and preaching the gospel to others. I am concerned and think the members and readers of this site need to be aware and "concerned" about this, for it is a serious matter.

May we all be grateful for the glory of God and redemption of Christ freely by grace through faith!

Romans 3:22-24 reads, "This righteousness from God comes through faith in Christ Jesus to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

-Sonny


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 170.141.177.53 on Oct 14, 2010 12:48 PM


 
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AuthorReply
Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.37

Response to Sonny

October 9 2010, 2:49 PM 

May we all be grateful for the glory of God and redemption of Christ freely by grace through faith!

Romans 3:22-24 reads, "This righteousness from God comes through faith in Christ Jesus to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."


Gen. 26:3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee;
......for unto thee, and unto thy seed,
......I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath
...... which I sware unto Abraham thy father;
Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven,
......and will give unto thy seed all these countries;
......and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
Gen. 26:5 Because that
......Abraham obeyed my voice,
......and kept my charge,
......my commandments,
......my statutes,
......and my laws.


It was Zwingli who tangled RIGHTEOUSNESS and SALVATION. The Jews said you had to become a JEW and keep the Law to be righteous. God had to work on Peter to get him to go into the world of the Gentiles and preach the gospel. The context shows that Peter still believed that people and animals were ceremonially impure. God showed him that no race or even pigs are impure.

A righteous person is one who keeps the laws of their culture so that the society has no charge against him which would disqualify him for full rights. A person who believes in THE FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST is ceremonially pure and capable of CALLING on the Name of the Lord to save him by being baptized.

If Billy Joe's hounds get lifted during the night, the Sheriff does not knock on my door because I am righteous: not sinless but have standing in the community as not a dog kidnapper.

Cornelius was a RIGHTEOUS person but Peter was told to tell him HOW TO BE SAVED. Being a JUST person and of good report, God still worked through the instrumental means of the gospel.

Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

"Grace" should never be used as an OFFSET to violating God's Will. Grace, like Word, is personified in Jesus Christ. Grace means "power" and not unlimited forgiveness for unlimited sins. As an example



    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 67.142.130.23 on Oct 16, 2010 8:34 PM


 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
70.146.141.226

Re: A Concerned Member Of The Church (Rom. 3:24)

October 9 2010, 2:59 PM 

Those who hide in various forms of anonymity yet who smear other people have no credibility. They are nothing but vicious gossippers.

 
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Sonny
(no login)
99.186.93.107

I agree with Brother Sublett

October 9 2010, 3:30 PM 

that we are not to use grace as a license of sin. This is not what I am promoting, but I am promoting salvation by grace.

And Dr. Crump, I am not speaking in anonymity. I have responded directly on this site to the person under the topic "Wall of Shame". Not trying to gossip.

I am questioning how this site can speak against instrumental music but not years of [you name it: "sin"] by a gospel preacher.

-Sonny


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 170.141.177.53 on Oct 14, 2010 12:52 PM


 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

No, salvation is mutual

October 9 2010, 3:56 PM 

Sonny,

You're partly correct about salvation by grace.

Salvation is offered to man by God and His wonderful grace. But it is also contingent upon man's penitence and acceptance of God's offer of salvation by grace. (We can discuss it further if you like....)

With regards to gossip, any discussion of [you name it: a specific "sin"] by a gospel preacher will not be tolerated on this site -- we all know that. That is a personal matter between the individual (be it a gospel preacher, a change agent, a regular member) and God.

We discuss religious doctrines, beliefs and issues -- and that is not gossip.


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 170.141.177.53 on Oct 14, 2010 12:56 PM


 
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Sonny
(no login)
99.186.93.107

False Assumption On My Part?

October 9 2010, 4:26 PM 

I assumed that if this site did not consider it gossip to speak about the doctrine of instrumental music and people who practice and teach this, that the site did not consider it gossip to speak about the doctrine of sexual purity and people who practice this while speaking of the "shame" of others.

I am not trying to judge him, nor anyone else on this site, but find it interesting that he would be so judgmental of all who are not like him.

I believe the same grace that can save him is the same grace that can save you and me. I do not personally practice IM, but I certainly do not think it is his place to be posting a "wall of shame".

-Sonny

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
72.171.0.138

response

October 9 2010, 4:11 PM 

I am questioning how this site can speak against instrumental music but not years of [you name it: "sin"] by a gospel preacher.

This forum was begun when churches which had been "boiling the frogs" for about a decade claimed to get visions, hear audible voices or have a spirit tell them that the curse of the sacrificial system noise--never called music--is God "commanding instrumental praise and we must not be disobedient."

Being used by the NACC a small band of preachers and professors in what they called "unity meetings" was their chance to preach that unity demanded people to go instrumental music or affirm that it was Biblical. At the highest level of scholarship there is no shame in collecting parts of verses mentioning instruments and defining their reading as inspired. At the same time the authority is from the sacrificial system after God abandoned Israel to worship the starry host BECAUSE of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai.

Because they plead being "postmodern" they also plead postbiblical other than using fragments to "write themselves into the story as a greater-than Moses or a greater-than Jesus Christ."

This "lying wonder" of imposing professional musicians happened in most Bible-believing groups. Concerned members was started after Madison in Nashville was willing to sacrifice more than half of the "owners" so they could--and I quote--"turn their old church into a theater for holy entertainment."

As far as I know, no one has used their personal failures as a WEDGE to infiltrate into a happy church and force everyone to affirm their failure or get out. That is not a stretch since all of the instrumentalists are forced to lie about all of the Bible which radically outlaws "vocal or instrumental rejoicing." From Genesis to Revelation and all older church history the use of instruments in the "school of Christ" has been treated as a salvation issue. The problem is that apparently no level of scholarship permits people to grasp that a Christian is a Disciple of Christ and disciples attend Bible class. Nor do they grasp that the synagogue (Paul's words) or ekklesia is such a School (only) of the Word of Christ (only).

Christ as the Rock ordained the Qahal, synagogue or Church of Christ in the wilderness. This was after the fall from grace at Mount Sinai. God gave the Civil-Military-Clergy role to the tribe of Levi even when Jacob had warned them NOT to attend the assemblies of the tribe of Levi.

http://www.piney.com/Synagogue1.html

The godly people, from the wilderness onward, were quarantined to their local area to attend school of the Word. This happened on the Sabbath (rest) days while the cursed Levi tribe was PROFANING the sabbath in the later temple. This was acceptable with God because He finally left them without redemption when the "elders" fired god and wanted a "national" king so they could worship like the nations. That meant Egypt, Greece, Canaan and Babylon.

None of the "change agents" have been Bible scholars but hired because of their rhetorical skills and "charismatic" presence: rhetoric is lumped with slick singers and instrument players as hypocrites (Isaiah; Ezekiel) by which Jesus identified a Scribe or Pharisee. The word "charismatic" which one preacher demands as necessary is a primary meaning of Grace (Charis) meaning "in an erotic sense giving favors to another male."

Baptism, the neo-trinitariansm, women's performing roles and a host of other topics have been covered.

It is not GRACEFUL to gossip about failures since most people think that GRACE covers sin as a confession that they intend to rely on grace and not doctrine.

Most of the "music" material by CM is in response to published or preached material used to intimidate people into not questioning the "message of the holy spirit." I suppose we will keep up the drum beat of harping on instrumental music defined anciently as a way to "silence the voice of the victim" or at the temple and Jesus "to make the Lamb dumb before the slaughter."


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 170.141.177.53 on Oct 14, 2010 12:59 PM


 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
72.154.219.154

Re: I agree with Brother Sublett

October 9 2010, 6:13 PM 

Unless a person is willing to post under his/her FULL name, s/he hides under full or partial anonymity. Posting under a first name only is partial anonymity; hence, there is a lack of credibility. People are far more willing to accuse others of "sin" ONLY if they can maintain full or partial anonymity. That's cowardly.

 
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Sonny
(no login)
99.186.93.107

:) I am a coward according to Dr./Bro. Crump - o.k. :)

October 10 2010, 10:05 PM 

I am accusing us all of sin, because the Bible does (Rom. 3:23). The reason for specifically mentioning his sin is because of his audacity to post a "wall of shame" based on worship differences.

We all have sin / shame, thus, we all need grace / redemption through Christ.

-Sonny Sinner


 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
70.146.141.58

Re: :) I am a coward according to Dr./Bro. Crump - o.k. :)

October 10 2010, 10:58 PM 

No real, full name--no credibility whatsoever. happy.gif

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
166.205.12.120

Crump & credibility

October 11 2010, 8:01 AM 

"No real, full name--no credibility whatsoever" ?

Sort of like the anonymously written book of Hebrews.

Credibility comes from the words written, not from the demand for a name.

Like the Democrats of today, challenge credibility when the issues, facts and truth are against you.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
70.146.139.75

Re: Crump & credibility

October 11 2010, 9:59 AM 

Hebrews has credibility; a gossipper does not. Comparing Hebrews and a gossipper is like comparing apples and oranges. Internet gossippers not only post hearsay, they often refuse to give their full, real names; hence, they have no credibility.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

A confession

October 11 2010, 2:00 AM 

Sonny,

You initially stated:

I am questioning how this site can speak against instrumental music but not years of [you name it: "sin"] by a gospel preacher.

It is OK to question "how this site can speak against instrumental music." That's why we are discussing instrumental music. This site is constantly aware and is striving to make readers aware that the operation of mechanical devices in the assembly is not only controversial and unnecessary but is also divisive.

But to bring up "years of [you name it: 'sin'] by a gospel preacher" is gossip -- this site is not the "Inquirer" or any other gossip publication. Is this some story you've been following or keeping up for years now? How can you afford this financially {maybe you are wealthy) and waste your time on this story? Or, was this some story you heard from someone ... who heard it from someone else ... who heard it from someone else, etc.?

Now you are saying, "I am accusing us all of sin.... We all have sin / shame, thus, we all need grace / redemption through Christ." That is a much better message than singling out one individual.

What changed your mind?


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 170.141.177.53 on Oct 14, 2010 1:03 PM


 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
70.146.139.75

Re: A confession

October 11 2010, 10:19 AM 

Sonny's gossip is like the following: Person A identifies serious problems at a nuclear power plant and blows the whistle. Person B also works at the plant but does not like what Person A has done. In an attempt to discredit Person A, Person B starts a rumor that Person A has his integrity outside the power plant in question and thus cannot be trusted, and the gossip spreads.

The whistle is blown about the unscriptural Change Movement that is taking place in some Church of Christ congregations, one aspect of which is the implementing of instrumental music. Sonny does not like what the messenger he is accusing has done, so in an attempt to discredit him, Sonny starts the rumor.

Pretty cheap shot! Ignore those who spread hearsay and gossip.


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 170.141.177.53 on Oct 11, 2010 12:18 PM


 
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Sonny
(no login)
99.186.93.107

Re: A confession

October 11 2010, 6:30 PM 

(The following is a reply to both brothers Crump and Cruz).

I guess it is o.k. [...] to follow and report on stories about churches AND MINISTERS related to the sin (?) of instrumental music without being accused of wasting time, nor being wealthy, but it's not for Sonny to [...] report ... sin [of others except his own].

The readers can decide for themselves credibility, and what is fact, what is fiction.

I wanted to give you men time to draw your conclusions and make your typical bullying remarks, which is why I withheld my full name at first. I knew how you guys would play this.

My name is Sonny Elliot. I suppose now I must give my social security number and home address or I am a "coward" in Dr. Crumps eyes happy.gif

[Remarks not conducive to "Christian" reading here ... ... ... deleted.]

-Sonny


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.249.211 on Oct 12, 2010 1:04 AM


 
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Sonny
(no login)
99.186.93.107

They have something to hide :)

October 11 2010, 7:27 PM 

In the post that Brother Cruz edited (left out), unless he edits this one as well, I reveal my full name, and also more details, which refute Brother Crump's claims of hearsay and gossip.

I should have known. happy.gif

-Sonny

 
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Sonny
(no login)
99.186.93.107

Why were these 3 doctrinal questions left out of this post?

October 12 2010, 2:30 AM 

1. If someone worships God acappella, yet commits adultery, can they be forgiven?

2. If someone worships God with a piano, yet does not commit adultery, can they be forgiven? (I understand this is assuming/implying that the piano is a sin.)

3. If someone worships acappella, does not commit adultery, but does not show mercy to others, can they be forgiven? (James 2:12 and 4:11-12 warn not to judge without mercy.)

I ended up beginning another post with these questions because it was left out of this one, under "remarks not conducive to 'Christian' reading."

The only other part you left out was information given about someone's history to refute Dr. Crumps claims that I was making stuff up. If he would not have bullied me and said this I would have left that alone (and will do so now).

And the only reason for any of this to begin with was because of the double standard (in my mind) about the "Wall of Shame".

I can quit posting on here if it is going to be controversial, as I assume this site did not begin to be divisive but edifying. Let me know if I need to be disfellowshipped from the dialogue.

-Sonny





 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

We encourage civil discussion of doctrinal issues and questions

October 12 2010, 3:25 AM 

Sonny,

Yes, those are excellent DOCTRINAL questions. They were deleted because they appeared to have been intentionally linked to the personal attack you made in "remarks not conducive to 'Christian' reading."

I believe that those who have been reading your posts sense that you have the potential to contribute greatly to our discussion of doctrinal issues -- only if devoid of personal attacks. (BTW, I have edited some of my own posts that I feel should have conveyed better messages.)

There are other doctrinal issues we can discuss besides instrumental music in the assembly -- certain teachings of change agents and progressive, liberal preachers that have caused division in the church.

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
166.205.15.124

Why the duplicity?

October 12 2010, 8:03 AM 

"They were deleted because they appeared to have been intentionally linked to the personal attack"

This entire website is dedicated to personal attacks. "Brother" Sublett would have nothing to do it were not for his personal attacks. Either remove all personal attacks, including the attacks you think are justified, or allow all of the facts to be presented.

You cannot be a participant making and allowing your allies to personal attacks, and be a referee, too.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
72.154.219.184

Re: Why the duplicity?

October 12 2010, 1:24 PM 

"Anonymous" accuses this "entire website" of hurling personal attacks, seemingly based solely on Ken Sublett's posts. I believe that's a gross exaggeration, also called hyperbole. BTW, since Sonny finally provided his full, real name, "Anonymous" could learn a lesson and do the same. What does "Anonymous" have to hide?

 
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